Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - White Male Stand-Up by Alan Davies (Live from the London Podcast Festival, Kings Place)

Episode Date: November 27, 2025

This week's book guest is White Male Stand-Up by Alan Davies.In a very special episode recorded live at the London Podcast Festival Sara and Cariad are joined by the incredible comedian, writer and actor Alan Davies. Best known for starring in the hit BBC series Jonathan Creek and for his regular appearances as a panellist on QI, they discuss his new memoir White Male Stand-Up.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss childhood abuse and death.White Male Stand-Up by Alan Davies is available here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclubTickets for Sara's tour show I Am A Strange Gloop are available to buy from sarapascoe.co.ukCariad's children's book Lydia Marmalade and the Christmas Wish is out in paperback here now. Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, I'm Sarah Pasco, and I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the Weirdo's Book Club, a space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated.

Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging. conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriads, Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week is a very special live episode recorded at King's Place as part of the London Podcast Festival. Our guest was the wonderful

Alan Davis and his brilliant book, White Male Stand Up. Trigger warning in this episode we do discuss childhood abuse and death. Hello, King's Place. Please welcome to the stage. It's me, Carrie and also Sarah. And also Sarah. What an afterthought. Very subtle. You had to be friends with someone a long time to know when they're really being quite bitchy. As I said it, I was like, why did you say that? I panicked. Wow. This is why improvising. I know it's your... It's my specialty, guys. You can tell. Sometimes. she should write something down. That was, that was, that was, okay, now we're even.

Now we're even, made up, made up. Friends again, thank you so much to all of you for being here. I hope it's going to be really wonderful because we have an incredible guest. Carriads here and also, and also the incredible Alan Davies. Alan Davies. Hi, everyone. We've written another book. I have, yeah.

Which number is this? It's three, number three. Number one was ages ago. No one really bought that. So it's number two, really. Your second book did really, really well. Second book was, yes, some people read that. Although now I'm doing a tour and I ask the audience who's read my book

and usually no more than three. I've read Just Ignore Him. I thought it was absolutely an amazing book. But doing that does get a laugh. The less people have read it, the funnier it is. Oh, yeah. And also questionable to why they come to... So your show is about the book?

No, it's a stand-up show. Okay. So it's a stand-up show, but you check if everyone's done, like, extra reading. Because then I talk about being abused by my dad. And then I say to them, now you feel less like an audience, and it's more like a hostage situation. And that works quite well.

Yeah, very well, yeah. But it's trying to talk about some of the shit in the books. The topic's... In stand-up, which I've never been able to do before. But it's incredibly healthy that you're... doing it because sort of jumping straight into this one of the things that I found so striking

was when you're talking to your therapist about how every time you sit down to write something, the thing that you're not saying, at this point in your life you had in it. So it's very hard to write stand-up when you're thinking about what you've been through with your dad. Yeah. And that's, and you think, okay, just don't say that.

Every time I wanted to write anything, that would be the only story that was in my head. Yeah. And it took me until I was 50 to write it down. And I was at Goldsmith's college doing a MA course, creative writing course, which I loved. And I wrote about my father on that course. And I submitted it anonymously as a piece of work towards the MA. That way it's only your student number that's on it.

So the two tutors who give you written feedback don't know who it is. And then I waited for the written feedback. and it was very encouraging so I did some more and then had a group of six Blake Morrison was running this particular two-term section of it but in the life writing he calls it and these six students sat we sat with one another and workshopped each other's writing in this incredibly safe space of very bright people who think about writing all the time and I imagine that that would stay there and it would be in my portfolio and would I get, you know, I'd get my

mortarboard and I'd feel proud of myself. But it kind of, after I finished, it grew into a book that became Just Ignore Him, which was a book about my, really about my mum, largely, but also about my mum died when I was six, but also about my dad, because that's what he used to say to my brother and sister of me. And so this book is kind of part two. really this is that book finished when I was trying to be a comedian really wanting to be a comedian and this book takes that on and at the time I kind of thought that sorry if I sound like I'm doing a speech but I've been doing quite a few interviews to plug it it's really good also being carried a working on our listening yeah because we talk over people all the time so um we were doing so

we were doing so well I was literally thinking wow me and Sarah are doing really well you're really good listening yeah I was proud of both of us I was thinking keep it going on just keep listening and I found my page and I thought no he's actually saying what you were going to ask you don't need to interrupt it's happening well done Sarah well done you thank you thank you anyway you you were saying Alan you were saying so I'm really listening actual weirdos up so yeah I imagine that the future is in front and you could leave the past behind that's why I imagine that life is linear. Yeah.

What a damn fool I was. Because their past turns up, there it is. And also that things you think, you know, are completely unconnected. I mean, obviously what's really great if you do have access to therapy is realizing, oh, everything's, I thought it was quite interesting when your therapist brings up the sort of family dynamic you had with your first sitcom. You know, these two older people are like parents and this person is like the brother. And sort of going, we keep repeating our dysfunctional patterns with people.

It's actually that. And I realized only in the writing of the book. that what I'd been doing all through my career was looking for a family. That only occurred to me in the writing. That occurred to you in the writing because I thought, just ignore him is brilliant.

If you haven't read it, it's so good. And this is so nice to read, even though I knew what happened next, it was so nice to be like, oh, great, I want to hear about all that stuff. But I thought that the revelations that you have in therapy, I was like, wow, you did therapy really well.

You really get there with this stuff. And I wondered if that had inspired you. to then write it or if it was just the writing of going, oh, every big job I had from Jonathan Creek to, you know, all the other successes you did, you were trying to recreate a family in that. That's what I realized. That's what I'd been doing.

And then finding a little family, finding a little group. I did it when I had a radio show or when I was on the circuit or when I had a sitcom. And then just fucking it up, falling out with someone. I did it when I was at university. I'd trashed friendship group. and the capacity to wreck family by behaving as we did in our family, which was without care, love or attention,

largely with neglect and selfishness. That's how you roll, right, in a family. And then you do it, you're out in the world, and you do that sort of thing. And people really, what is wrong with you? And the people who don't think what is wrong with you are other comedians on the circuit. Because they are really, you think you're weird.

One of us, one of us. But that's what I thought was so interesting reading it because it's, you know, there's this kind of cliche which I find quite annoying where everyone sort of says, oh, it's like the tears of a clown, you know, comedians have like quite a lot of sadness. But I thought what you,

what I really liked about this book is you talk about, there's a lot of anger in some of us and that has also drawn us to comedy. It's not just this idea. I think it's quite a passive idea of like someone who's just, and then they go by stage and they weep

whereas I really related to someone who gets angry and fucks it up that way I was like not everyone is politely passively weeping also I think outside of comedy I think it's a really human experience that if you aren't taught certain things as a child in your family dynamic whoever that group of people are

which is intimacy forgiveness you know being able to forgive your own emotions temper your own emotions then adulthood is going to be really tricky and for some people they never learn and they have really difficult lives or for some people it's very war and difficult

but you do learn those things through caring about other people like people talk about chosen family and things adulthood is true and parenthood is tricky and I found being a parent and seeing my kids at the age I was for example the age I was when my mum died

that was very powerful to me and seeing Katie my wife when she was 38 that was the age of my mum died There's all these triggers all the time. And then realizing that the abuse and the childhood is acting on them, it's coming through, you know. And I really hated that. And you can easily hate yourself. That's easy.

Park up with those feelings. They're familiar. And you say if you've convinced that usually in a room, when you're growing up, if you think you're in a room with people who'd rather you weren't in the room, that becomes a habitual state of mind and to be that in your own family with my own children was really bleak and I thought it's happening it's happening it's happening again

I've got to try and fix this not let this happen not let him get me from the other side you know and not let him get to them and so that involved well the writing of these books and three years a couple's therapy and, you know, a lot of work. I think you should be really proud of yourself because at every stage of that, this is why people make jokes instead.

It's to be flippant, to distract and not deal with it. Yeah, Kate is quite funny on this. Well, she's funnier than me anyway, but she's very funny about this when I went back to stand-up, and we've been together five or six years, and I said, I'm going to do stand-up.

And she said, well, what are you going to talk? She's never seen me do a gig. What are you going to talk about? And I said, I think it's really funny when the baby shits and all the shit comes out at the back of a nappy and shoots up the back. And she said, that isn't funny. That's just disgusting. I said, but I will do it in a funny way. Just leave it with me, okay?

And then I went and did a work in progress at the Pleasants not far from here. And I came back and I sat in the kitchen and said, I'm never going to be funny again. What all comedians say when they're trying to write a new show. And she said, well, obviously, because you're not. never have been and then I worked out a show and she came to see the show and it was really funny show and I thought this is really working you know when it works you think and then she was vaguely resentful because if you can be as funny as that how about a bit more of that around the home have you had a reaction from other comedians that your comedy is very funny and it's not

when I say light it's not like you were very like dark media you're a silly billy you're a silly billy I was a people pleaser yeah but then reading your writing your writing is honest and raw and truthful

have you had people who've known you for the circuit for like 20 years read this and be like whoa like I thought you were all jokes and silliness I've had that from QI anyway people when they see me in this street if they like QI they think I'm going to be the one off QI and I'm not just a twat

I mean, I'm grisly and grumpy. And I didn't really realize how different my off-stage persona was from my stand-up persona, even when I was doing it. And then there's a story in the book about, I was asked to go, Jonathan Ross in the 92 or something, had a five nights a week chat show. And I really, we all watched him when we were at university on the last resort.

His show, that show was great. Yeah. And I get invited to go on Jonathan's show to do two minutes to stand up. And I say to my agent, I just want to be interviewed like everybody else. Why do I just have to do two minutes of stand up? And he didn't, what he should have said was because he haven't got anything to be interviewed about. Do your stand up. And then leave. Be funny. Then you might be worth talking to. But you're not at the moment. But he didn't say any of that. He said, yeah, yeah, I'll ask that. So it's live TV.

And I do the two minutes. And I basically got away with it. And the adrenaline, the fear of it. And then it ended. And then he starts coming over across the studio to me because he's obligated to interview me he doesn't know who the hell I am and I immediately became surly indifident and the change between you know that guy this guy was immediate

and the interview didn't go very well he asked you if you were going to do Edinburgh and you said no yeah and then he said where you were playing and you said I'll go to Edmonton a pub next to the Hackney Empire yeah that's not very good is it he thought I was joking

did you remember that very clearly that interview and do you remember what is it like a fear of being caught out or trying to look cool what was the difference why did the people pleasing switch off i didn't really realize i tell you what when i was going to write this i started i looked at a few old videotapes of old appearances and on tv and there's a mirror in the green room and you can have a little look at yourself before you come out and sit in front they know our mirrors work yeah both of them said the mirror shit it was it's an age

don't look in that mirror it's a time machine that makes you it at 10 years older go to the toilets get an honest appraisal in some darker lighting it made me look shorter

than I am it like squished me exactly I have that feeling if I walk past the car and I catch a glimpse of myself in the window oh Christ on a bike is that what I look like

but also you have a lovely bit in the book about memory when you're talking about that this Viva Cabaret bit, a show that you went on, you know, those mad 90 shows that were happening, that you have a completely different memory of and then you watch the YouTube of and you were like, oh, you know, people are, people were having a good time, but I remembered it so painfully

different. And I thought it must be an interesting to be a person who can check YouTube for your memories. Like most of it's like, oh, I don't know what that was. Or you have to ask a family member. It's also the annoying thing for someone who is a partner or close family of a comedian. Because A gig goes how you perceived the gig. You're watching it from there, but you're feeling it in your body. So a bad gig, there's no way anyone who is there can convince you. It wasn't terrible because it felt awful. The time is so slow, and you're just hearing it, seeing the eyes of people that you think despise you.

All of it's so hard. So then watching it on video and it being a good gig is almost like gaslighting going out. I felt that gig. There are two rounds of applause during my act. a big ovation at the end yet i recall only silence sometimes i wish my memory function differently it's as if any recollection comes with a label attached beware the past i was like oh alan it's so heartfelt oh but also i just remembered everything that i was wearing wrong yeah yeah everything about it wrong and memories just not to be trusted so memoir and autobiography is really strange and difficult

And you think you're going to set down things you remember, then you realise you can't remember them or you remember them wrongly. And then as you're doing it, you come to other realisations about what was going on or what you felt. There's jobs that you completely forgot. Like you were in a play with Francis Barber.

Oh, yeah, I love that bit. And actually Francis Barber also forgets. Also doesn't remember that play together. Yeah. Well, in our defence, we are now a little bit older than we were, but also it was a radio play. But yeah, I found this thing and it said work in progress. I thought, oh, wow, maybe that's a gig I did.

And it wasn't, it was a play called Work in Progress, starring France's bar. The other thing I think that's really interesting about this book and I loved is that fame was different in the 90s. Like, everybody recognized you. But even without the fame, performing live, things you have written about yourself as a version of yourself, I would say, is emotionally significant. It's not traumatic, but it's really vivid, bright colours. I can't think how you, as a performer, you could have. any more on the line. You don't have a costume.

I mean, unless you're doing a character, you don't have a fake name. You stand up and say, I am me. And this is what happened. And here it is. Myself for you. But it's so interesting, like you said, because there's a stand-up persona

and then there's all, like you said, you were still dealing with all the, everything that had happened to you was real, wasn't, you know, you hadn't misremembered those things. And that was still affecting what was happening you then. It's just, I just think you're being so honest

about how it is to be human, which is a really, I hate to say it, because it's not a, but it's a brave thing to do with a memoir. Well, thank you. But I do think that the process of writing memoir, it turns out, for me anyway, isn't about recollection. It's about trying to work out, okay, this is chronology. The chronology is possible because, as you say,

there's YouTube and then, you know, there are years where I did this. Jonathan Greek started that year, you know. But the overlaying what was happening, what your emotional story is which is what my editor kept trying to get me to do please don't tell me that you're in a play and then write about that for three pages

in there any annit stories written and not really I got a bad knee from the rake stone that's very self-pity and we won't put that and then as you write it you work out things about yourself that you didn't previously know one of my tutors at Goldsmith said we write to discover that which we did not know about ourselves and I thought what are you on about

and then I started to write and then I got oh I get it I get it so I found that for that organised in emotional memory that's writing the books as being invaluable for me and then I what I also think is it's a lot of work that's two years of work and you want to produce something that's of value that's of worth you know so we all live this life you know

we all know people we've lost people we know people of our bad experiences or we've had bad experiences we've all lived all living this life together everybody

and what's the point of writing the book where you pretend that none of the shit goes on or where you pretend that you're nice you definitely don't do that I was like quite

there was a few bits I was like wow he really he doesn't come off well in that story particularly with some of the girlfriends I was like oh that was that wasn't nice what you just did Alan to that lady yeah sometimes it's

and not really realising yeah the editor's saying I think you should put in stuff about the relationships and I said I don't I don't think I should I was very excited when you were at the Montreal just for last festival and you went up to Sarah Silverman's bedroom yeah that was like what turning the pages what is going to get now was he about to drop now yeah but nothing happened

you couldn't seduce her nothing happened no I didn't seduce so I bottled it completely and then and this is and this must be true so she performed with she performed the listing the states backwards yeah listing the all the American states in alphabetical order backwards which was a trick she could do but she did it with her finger in her vagina yeah and I didn't see her do that I thought She told you about it. I saw her in the hotel and if I saw her, I would go to her. I'm going to, I'm going to say, hi, Sarah. And then I say it.

And then I realized she didn't look okay. I said, you okay? And she said, oh, my agent says, I've ruined my career. What? Agents? Oh, I really hate agents. They're the worst. So, what did you do?

I do this thing where I turn around, I bend over, I put my finger in my vagina. And I can do all the United States in reverse alphabetical order. And I said, that sounds amazing. Well, he says I've ruined my career. And the other thing that I didn't know about her at that time, because I only met her just then, was that she'd been on Saturday Night Live, right? She'd joined the cast of Saturday Night Live.

It was a big deal because she was young. And then she got jettisoned after one season. and so it really felt like oh they've had a look at her and actually it's a no and then she went and did that and which I really I just I think she's brilliant

and I love her and anyway subsequently she's had an amazing career she did she did another show biz gossip story I'm not going to give away any massive things from your book but I just love

this tiny little detail it made me laugh out loud when I first read it and then when I re-read it in the dressing room just now, Sally Phillips auditioned for Jonathan Creek doing an Italian accent to play Caroline Quintin's pot. Yeah, Caroline was leaving. Caroline left. Yes.

He needed a new assistant. And David Renwick wanted Julia Swarla to do it. And Julius Swaler suddenly was not available because she was doing a project with David's former writing partner. And really felt like I was on the edge of something very awkward between former lovers or something. So they audition like a hundred actresses. The characters called Carla Barago,

but there's no reference in anywhere in the script that she's Italian. And she came in and she said, if you don't mind, I think I'll do it Italian. And I really, I could have really, David Wrenwick is really, what he says of himself is that it's not that the glass is half full. It's it, there is no glass.

And I could just feel them going, oh, fuck. And then she did a brilliant Italian accent. It was really funny, but completely useless for the thing. And then the next week turned out, Julia was available. So Julia got it. So she did it. Yeah, and you and Sally laugh about this now.

Well, Sally then, years later, she was on QI. And you know, you know her. She's a real giggler. She's such a giggler. Friend of the podcast. And she started, she said, do you remember when I auditioned for Jonathan? And she couldn't get to the end of saying that without collapsing. singing and giggles.

He said, I'm so sorry. I don't know why I did that. I don't know either. It would have been a very funny self-take to watch, though. Sometimes actors are encouraged. If you've seen 100 actresses, if everyone you know is up for the same job, make a bold choice.

Make a decision. Who is she? She's from Italy. Yeah. We had Susanna Harker. Of course I do, because she is Jane Bennett in Pride and Pride's 19-5 version.

She's a really big deal at the time. in everything. And Susanna Harker's coming in. Oh, okay. And so then we go, so I read with some of the actresses, you know, if that helps.

And they said, well, Susanna's arrived. She's coming up. Okay. So that involves going to the lift, getting out of the lift, which is on the other side of the corridor

and come into the room. 25 minutes later, no sign of her. No one had any idea where she'd gone. She's gone rogue. And she'd gone rogue. And when she came, in she looked like she'd gone to I don't know a hippie commune or something for a bit

and then come in she obviously didn't want to be in it oh no well she was Jane Bennett she came and sat down I think well this Susanna Harker yeah I think I had one line which was how you or something like that and then she had a great long monologue it's me being there was completely the point is I said how are you and she started laughing well I thought we're fucked But then, yeah, of course, Julia got the part famously. And you write about your relationship with Julia, which, I know you can't do this, but I sort of wanted it to be a film.

Did you feel like that when she was, like, chasing you down the road in her car? I was like, this could make a great romantic comedy if you changed what happened in your life. Yeah, well, we were together in nearly two years. It didn't work out. And so some of the stories of our time are together. are in the book lots aren't yeah I got the vibe of that Alan because some of them are so

dramatic that you're like there must have been a lot of drama going on in that relationship but you felt like you would have been fun people to hang around with oh she is really fun yeah if I could feel she's brilliant I mean I loved it a bit and I and she was great in the program everyone on the crew loved her yeah you know dad was really nice and so but we broke up and it just was never going to see me again that was that so that's kind of what I'm like can we talk about money sure yeah you talk about money you're very honest I really love I really love it I just love it so much when comics are honest about what they are yeah I love it when they tell you what they got for a gig I love it when they tell you what they got for a corporate

can I just explain to the audience if you don't know a comedian but sometimes they get They get outrageous amounts of money to go and do very events. It doesn't always happen, but I don't think people quite realize outrageous amounts. Stupid money. But they're very talented. They deserve it, but the numbers that you hear occasionally. Never deserve that amount of money. But sometimes it's like...

You don't get anything for a live podcast. Sometimes you do something for a friend. Sometimes you get a biscuit. A glass of wine. A new material, all these kinds of things. There's lots of generating that isn't well paid. TV can be ridiculous money less so now. but also you talk about the adverts

and I know that you're talking about in the 90s in the 90s that amount of money I mean it's a jawropping amount of money the comedians that I all improvise that I know from the 90s will say things to you like oh I did that advert and I bought a three story house

and hackney yes like that's what it was whereas now people were saying I bought this top I did an advert for cabries and they gave me 20 pounds like that's yeah it doesn't exist anymore but the 90s was yeah a completely different world but you seem to be quite measured about it but that you had negativity at the time from other comics some of whom you know.

Some people and from myself but it's hard to explain now it seems so strange that when Jonathan Crete was on television on a Saturday night that's 12 million people I know we can't remember those worlds so you're so and if you know we won a BAFTA award and then we won a national television award

so we're winning the we're beloved of the jury and of the punters and it's all David Remwick's work and he has to sit and watch me getting a million quid for doing Abbey National commercials for which he gets uncle basically

repreasing the lovable character that he created you know so yeah so you're playing that you were playing the persona you weren't Jonathan Creek in the duffel coat but that's what people then had associated with you yeah they were buying Jonathan Creek Jonathan Cree is entirely trustworthy and honest.

And he's got a sense of humour and he's bright. And he banks with the Abbey National. Wow. What a stamp of approval that is. Tell you a story about that, though. I then had to bank with the Abbey National because it felt like, well, that's bound to come out in the papers if it doesn't. So I changed all my accounts to the Abbey National.

Then they paid me quite a lot of money. And then I wrote a check to pay the enormous amount of income tax I had to pay. And it bounced. So that, I had to ring the Abbey National. And I mean, they literally said, I'm the one in the advert. Please don't bounce my check, okay? I am the Abbey National. Again, you're so honest in the books.

It's just, it's really interesting. And I really felt not, well, not necessarily, I did feel nostalgic for that 90s time when it feels simpler. Like comedy was coming up. It was very, like you said, it was very exciting, but it hadn't become as commercial as it has now. And I used to watch Lee Evans. and Bill Bailey and you and on telly and it felt such a like... Joe Brand, yes.

It was such a like exciting time to find that you could watch comedy on television. Like it would be late night on Channel 4 like Jack D had his show, didn't he? And Joe had a show. And you'd be searching for it. I think it's hard to explain how niche it was compared to how it is now.

So was it a smaller pool or was it, do you think that things could happen for people quicker in those days? Because it definitely was less of a business. There were less agencies and sort of the people sort of constructing it. Yeah, there was a smaller pool and there weren't so many channels

and there was a feeling that you could get your own show. Jack got his own show. From an Edinburgh or sort of from being a circuit. I mean, Sean, I loved that show so much. Shawnee's show. Yeah, and he, overnight he got a show on Channel 4 and then we took, I supported him on tour but we did that and he went, you know,

that could happen to you. And so the channels had a lot. of power. The people who were commissioning had a lot of power. Your agents are always hovering around them and you're hoping to get your opportunity. That's how it was then. The world now, the online world and it's a totally different thing. So what also would happen was you'd be working with comedians all the time, traveling up down the country with them, seeing them every weekend, and then suddenly you've got a telly show and some of the people left behind and not happy about the situation you know because it can feel like a real sliding doors moment why him not me and

that but getting on telly was the ambition of most but it was still an ambition was greatly frowned upon by some of the elder statesman of the alternative circuit by the time I started that was almost what those people checked with you are you here because you want to do this properly are you here because you want to have a sitcom and the example they'd use as people like Dylan Moran or Bill Bailey and because of black books which they didn't see as a side hustle was also seen as like okay well you were supposed to be proper

yeah yeah yeah yeah you would get that I mean you weren't even supposed to talk about television in your act or and you weren't supposed to make jokes about adverts in your yeah why are you doing jokes about adverts we're better than that no we're not Give it a few years, we won't be. But the idea of being in an hour, doing a television show,

and people were very, I suppose you were looking at for the producers in the audience or something. You brought it up, I didn't. I just, I like doing my hat. It was odd. But that was a part of it. And there were people around, I didn't really realize, there were people around who became big agents

who had clocked it that what was happening around them was, to use the modern phrase, monetizable. You know, this people. person could be. And so they signed up some of the talent. And it's funny, you know, you mentioned doing a show and then coming off and thinking that was terrible and not being, no one could tell you otherwise. That's what Lee Evans was like. Lee Evans would do his set. It'd just blow the roof off every gig he ever did. If you could follow Lee Evans, you felt like you were, you were doing all right. I went to see him live when I was a teenager at like, I don't know, they played him or something.

And it was like the most amazing gig over it. It was incredible. And, you know, he was dripping with sweat afterwards. But yeah, I can't believe he would have thought it was a big. That's why it was like always. And I did a thing for Granada television, six young comedians. You all go on one after another. There's no interval.

I was the sixth one. And Lee was the fifth one. We're supposed to have 10 minutes each. Lee did 35 minutes. And the audience were on bench. pictures looking like they were really big and then he finished you used to mime to bohemian rap scene yeah you see the piano act why would that be funny but it was so funny the chair just moved away for 10 minutes it was amazing and I kind of got away with my bit and I was

singing but I really I love Lee used to knock around together and then go back to the hotel and that's part of me I wanted to say too many for fuck sake mate 35 minutes I was number six but then there was a piano in a hotel bar and he played honky ton piano for for two hours. And we just love him, right? Yeah. He was amazing. He was so amazing to watch, like,

and I found a bit really nostalgic because that's what, I guess, I was getting into comedy then and searching for it. And, but it's interesting, isn't it? Like, you say that, because back then,

it was like, you said, the door closed. Whereas now, because of this online world, it's like the door doesn't, it doesn't feel like the door closed. Would you say this? Like, you can still make your own work. You find your own audience.

It's completely different. Yeah, you don't have to go, well, that's it. They decided I'm not allowed on TV. It isn't always, but it can be democratic. There's like another option, which I think in the 90s, it was like, well, that's it. You go to the clubs and forget about it.

Yeah. TV producers decided not you. Whereas now it's like, well, you couldn't make your own channel. Also, a comedian's career is long. There are people, you know, knows from the establishment for a long time. And then they completely change their mind all at once and go, oh my God, they're amazing. Yeah.

It's totally different now. and people find their own audience and they post videos and they create content they can pick up on something immediately they can post something immediately if it's funny it gets seen enough people see it

and then if they're smart then they can book some shows and also they always feel like they have discovered it themselves like people used to have with music as well organic organic monetising whereas thinking oh that was just what was on Channel 4 someone else decided that was funny for me

yeah it's very different so I think the idea now that you can find I mean, I found this out. I'd been doing a podcast about Arsenal for years. And we realized one day, we said, we wanted to do one live, and we mentioned it on one podcast once. And then we booked a pub at lunchtime.

Thinking maybe 40 people would turn up. And there were 300 people there. There's no room for everyone. And they'd come in their lunch hour. We had no idea to what this was happening. You know, so you don't need the broadcasters anymore. And the broadcasters are all. collapsing and going broke and laying people off.

You don't get a million pounds for adverts anymore, do you? Do not get a million pounds for adverts. You do not. I've got my favourite anecdote is in the book. And it's about when I was direct line used to do, you know, used to do the red telephone on wheels. And they were going to go into online stuff. This is how long ago it was.

And they wanted me to do the voice of the computer mouse alongside Stephen Frye doing the voice of the voice of the phone so they're going to get QI endorsement right and QI are not going to get any of the money John Lloyd's going to get nothing and I said there's no way on earth that Stephen's going to do that and I've just done all these bank adverts and I don't think I should do any more adverts right and I forgot all about it and two weeks later it comes on the TV Stephen's doing the telephone and Paul Merton is doing the computer and that I've never asked Paul well I don't see him very often but when I do I've often thought I wonder how much you

God, because it would have been a lot. It would have been a lot. 90s advert money would have been, yeah, a hell of a lot. What is the hold that stand-up has over you? Like you said, like it's, you've walked away from it, you became an actor, you became very much television personality. You didn't need to go back to stand-up. Like, you could have carried on and completely moved,

but there is, it seems in the book as well, like, it's part of who you are, fundamentally somewhere? I think. I realised when I hadn't done it for a while, and again, it's partly in the writing the book, that it was better for me to be doing it. It was better for me to have a, this is a creative outlet that I have.

And you're in control, you're looking at the audience and they're looking, and you're talking to them, and this is what I liked. And I also thought of it as my trade, you know, that if it all went wrong on the telly and I really can't believe that no one's tapped me on the shoulder yet on QI

and said, all right, fuck off. But I could always go back to doing stand-up because I was good at it and I could get a laugh and I would always be able to do that. And if everything, lost everything overnight and start again from that. So I thought I think of it as my trade

and my craft and the thing I like doing the most. The hardest thing about stand-up is new material. That's the hardest thing about it. But it's also the funnest thing. Because I think that's where the, for some people it's an addiction.

It's for most comic performers, it's a compulsion. That's the bit where I think, oh, that's what I'm, that's what any gig that doesn't give you that, a new bit that absolutely flies and then you improvise a couple of extra bits and at the same time you go,

oh, this is going to be a proper chunk. You just fly in home. It is the best thing. If you could bottle that feeling, I mean, this isn't the most imaginative bit of comedy that I've ever done, but I did receive a bowel cancer testing kit from the NHS. And I went on stage in a gig somewhere. I remember where it was in the Midlands.

And I said, I've had a letter this morning. The NHS want me to send in a bit of my shit. And I hadn't thought of it as a joke. It was just true. It was just true. And they really laughed. And I looked out and I thought, well, they're all in their 50s. these people.

They've all had the same bastard laugh. And everyone's trying to work out, how do you do this? Found my people. And well, can you imagine how long that routine is for that? Don't do that at a uni gig. But this is where, so, like, what laughter is. You know, like Aristotle has that lost book. You know, he's got the one on tragedy.

We've lost his one on comedy. But the fragments that remain. The one from the name in the rose. Have you read that book? Oh, the Umberto Eco Book. Yeah. Such a long time ago. Oh, yeah.

That's brilliant. But the whole thing with laughter. is that we laugh to reassure that everything's okay. I just love the idea that Aristotle would tell everyone. No, you haven't read it. I've lost it. It was actually really funny. No, no, I did finish it.

You have to read it. I can't explain it. But even from all of those years ago. So, and the example is like we laugh. If someone falls over, we laugh if they're okay. We don't laugh if it's an old person and we're worried about them or if they're vulnerable in some other way. So you say something that is so raw and vulnerable in your actual life.

but as entertainment we're laughing to go you'll be fine it's fine we're all fine and so it is it so funny isn't it coming from that really truthful raw place yeah that is the bit that people like do you think it saved you a little bit sorry do you think like comedy has somehow from like you said a very traumatic childhood

deeply traumatic do you think somehow comedy has like is the thing that's dragged you through all of these experiences definitely definitely because there's no way I could I've had a job. I'd have had so many rouse. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I've had rouse on every job I've ever done. Yeah. Sorry. What are you angry about? Fucking loads of stuff, okay? It's a bit like that. Quite long list, actually. You seem so nice.

Yes. Yes, I'm putting it on. I'm pretending. Stan Laurel seemed nice. He was a hard-nosed businessman. Yeah. I think that's what comes across in the book. And also, obviously, being called White Male Stand Up,

there's this like... It's such a funny title. Such a funny title. And such a lovely picture of you as well. There's this feeling that, like, comedy is... Well, I wonder what you think about this. I love that it respects comedy and it respects stand up for what it is rather than it. Like, again, one being like, oh, tears of a clown.

You know, obviously, I was actually very sad. It's like, I was sad, but this is a magic thing that also exists. Oh, yeah, I love it. And it's a community. I think there's an element. I mean, I think a few things that I would say, one, it is a form of sharing yourself and having yourself accepted on stage. That strengthens people over the years.

Yeah, yeah. I'm not saying it's therapy, it's not. But it can have a therapeutic purpose of concilization of selfhood. I've been in place of therapy. Of course. And then you have the community of other people who do your job. And there's a bit of a wild west. You haven't really put yourself out there, but there's a consolidation of, you don't even have

to like someone. stuff to respect they do what you do they went out to the same crowd there's a shorthand there and then the third thing is money yeah I mean if you are going to try and take care of yourself after a really difficult childhood you do need money it's really hard if you don't have access to experts and therapy and then the time when you need time off or all those kind of things yeah that's what I loved about it that it didn't it didn't act like comedy wasn't important or you know that was the sideline but here's the actual you know the therapy

and the trauma it was like no these two things were interwoven together and it's so nice as someone who loves comedy to read a book that's that's honoring the two sides i always love things that's honoring trauma and comedy obviously with my background and i felt like you were really doing that in this book and i hope people understand that yeah comedy's hard it's hard to go on stage and pretend to be funny and happy i always find that i'm always rooting for the comedian you know and I got a really good friend Wes who's in the book a friend from Canada

the funniest person I know I think and quite troubled and he came over to London a few years ago now and I said do you want to go see some comedy and he goes sure and I said do you want to see some sort of okay comment I'm looking at time out

I can take to some sort of okay competent comedy or I can take it to some terrible comedy what do you want to say it? He goes terrible comedy and we went to see some terrible comedy people who hadn't done it much who weren't very good at it and it was so he was just howling with laughter and not in any way to condemn the people just out of sort of I can totally get what you're trying to do man

I can see what you're trying to do this isn't working like this but don't give up it's hard it's so hard and I think we've said this before like it's really easy to watch stand-up and it seems like someone's chatting and to think it's easy. Like I remember the first time I saw Josie Long and I was like, well, she's just chatting. She's just doing chatting. It's really, and then like thinking, well, what would I chat back? Oh, I literally, I can't, I can't do stand-up.

And I think that's what your book does as well. It's like, you're so chatty and charming and effort, like, affable. But it's like, it's actually, but it's really hard to do what you're, to do the, to bring in all these themes that you're doing. So craft something and make it look effortless. It feels crafted. And I love the mentions of Judy. Lucy who I only know also from Australia and um she the Melbourne yes festival lady

so I I saw her gigging I went I was I was recommended to see her show and she has a routine that I'm not going to do justice to but it has never ever left my mind and it was about being an aging woman and having less pubic hair so so when you're a young woman obviously everyone most people feel they have too much and they're dealing with it but as you age she's expressing that she has less and less hair. And she described her, I guess, her pudenda. Although I don't think nobody has using that word, she was saying it was, it now looked as if a burst had flown into it.

You know, like they flow into windows and just the back half. I was just sort of hanging off the front. I had a hernia operation recently and that's really hurting. I want Judith Lucy to know that. That's how good, though. I can see it, the patches of their skin and the little legs and the wing. Like, I can see it. It's such incredible imagery.

And that's genius-level comedy. Yeah, she's the best, Judy. She's the best. I was going to text you about it when you read it. That's so good. It's so good. And also, by the way, that was someone describing to you someone's routine. Imagine the routine.

She's so, she's electrically fun. She's a brilliantly fun. She's a kind of national treasure. We met when we were in our 20s at the Adelaide Fringe. and we've become great friends and she's become a national treasure really in Australia and the reason she has is she's incredibly honest

and truthful about her life she found out she was adopted in the middle of a family argument on Christmas Day and anyway you're adopted yes that's my kind of comedy yes please from that

she created an hour long show. She's brilliant, Judith. She's brilliant. She does and says the TV series she does. Just one last thing about Julia, it's called Judith Lucy's spiritual journey. It's well worth it.

Okay. Good shout. The other thing I was really glad you were honest about is cocaine. Oh yeah, the drugs. All of the drugs. So when I started, there were lots of, what there was lots of chat of was that, oh, you guys don't even start drinking until you're finished.

the gig now we used to all be sort of chopping up our Charlie over there and we're in that sink and then we don't like to sound of the old days it sort of turned up in the 90s and well I really remember it was at the comedy awards where every household name you can think of you describe the comedy awards very well that's it and they've left a lot out by the way because the lawyers at the publishers go I bet no I used to watch the comedy awards it was completely televised and it was like chaos and it wasn't like an award ceremony where like the audience are in the dark they were on tables you could see everybody and if anyone won who they didn't like I don't know anyone else was comedy obsessed they would just boo and scream and and heckle

obviously because they were all comedians that they were angry that Jonathan Ross had you know had said this thing about them it was so it was like watching like a uni party and also the monologue and so a lot of them were hosted by Jonathan Ross if not all of them yeah and he would say nasty stuff so Really nasty. Is it Michael McIntyre on his Desert Island disc saying that was like the one and only time that he and his wife got dressed up and went to an award ceremony and then the opening monologue like just taking that just bit like shitting on him probably and I'll never go to anything ever again.

My worst one was they said this year it's fancy dress and I dress as a matador and when I got there no one else was in fancy dress. Do you think they only sent you the fancy dress invitation? Possibly. Sean Locke had a TV show at the time. called TV, heaven, telly, hell. Oh, yeah. And which you had to talk about a couple of shows

you loved and a couple of shows who didn't like. And I chose the comedy awards and I told this story to him. And I really remember his face. If he'd gone in the room and realized he was a Matador and no one else was, he would have just take, had a whiskey in a revolver moment.

One year we went and I sat next to Jonathan Crete was nominated. We never won. And I sat next to David and he didn't even say hello. He said, we haven't won. You're not supposed to know, right? I said, how do you know we haven't won? He said, I was on the panel.

I said, well, I hope you voted for us. He goes, no, I didn't vote for us. What do you mean you didn't vote for us? He said, well, I've got to our category, and I said, I think I should step out. And I looked at Mike Bullen. Mike Bullen was the guy who created Cold Feet, which is the most popular comedy drama on television at the time.

And I said, did Mike Bullen step out? He said, nope. And he voted, of course, he voted. So they won. So they went up to get the prize. All the cold feet cast, John Thompson, who I knew very well, and all of them went up. And I was the one at the back going,

they voted for themselves. Boo! They put a camera on you to get your reaction. And I just lost it. Because I was pissed as a fuck. They're giving you all this wine, no food. You're there for hours. And also, but it's also the disposition of comedians.

I know. That's why I loved watching it. I loved watching it. consider themselves serious artist like Seinfeld says you should never ever be nominated for award you should always be at the back

making fun of it but obviously that's the problem with the comedians of the ones yeah the comedy awards we're all gonna go who's won it yeah yeah it's so gonna piss

see shit it's like that's why I love watching it was like 25 back rows all trying to all trying to act like they were the back row and so it was like chaos watching it was just insane so it's like but you aren't the back row

you're at the awards you've already lost the cool factor because you're there being like I hope I win you should have hosted it you should have opened by saying that you've got none of you already lost none of you have cool I did love watching it so much I said yeah it was so exciting well also because I loved I loved telecomedy and they were all in the same room together and you couldn't you couldn't believe it they're all in the same toilet cubicle together but yeah the amount of like again and you you know you do you talk about it as Amy Lipptrop says startingly honest

that's a good quote to get Amy Litton Trotton do you know her personally No, I don't, but... So it's a real quote, it's not even a friend quote. It's a real, it's not even a friend quote. She was a bit miffed, I think, that they took those two words out. Her complete quote is on the back, yeah. It's a very good, very good quote.

But she's, her memoir, the outrun. Yes, it's extraordinary. And my editor was saying, who should we tend it to? And I said, I'd like me to send it to Amy Leptrol. Not really expecting anything. But yeah, she's fantastic. Yeah, really good. I know you're touring at the moment

and it sounds like it's an annoying question to ask a writer-performer but are you thinking about the next book like now, are you addicted to, is this now a part of the new addiction? I don't want to do another one of them. I said that the last time. Yeah, you did say that the last time. It's very hard work. I'd like an easy writing job, but there's no such thing, right?

No. If you're doing it right, it's hard. Yeah. But I tried to write some fiction, but I made a mess of it and it didn't get, I couldn't sell it. but I think I could unpack it a bit and save some of it there's a chapter in here

that's from it actually there's a chapter Jay about the boy who came to my house asking for money and I put that in a novel but it's a true story who kept coming to my house

asking for money so that's from that so I sort of took that and then my editor said I love that chapter it's great and I said yeah that's from the novel that I couldn't say

very annoying that you want me to put it in this but at least It's 3,000 words that's ready to go. It was a great chapter. It was really brilliant. Because it stops, well, I mean, it's interspersed with some modern stuff, but it does, you could write a third memoir. Have you ever spoken to Stephen Frye about writing?

Because your careers in some ways are sort of quite, obviously you're very, very different, but people associate you because of QI, but he's also written, you know, fiction, lots of nonfiction and about his own life. Yeah, he's hugely prolific, Stephen. and so no we talk about cricket snooker and darts usually by text message and I only the only times I've seen him in the last year

have all been at Lord's cricket grounds but yeah I love I love Stephen I haven't read any of the myth books I don't know why I did I studied classical drama at university and I loved it I was a big Sophocles fan at 19 but I haven't read any of those I read all his memoir

There's a lovely The journey of QI is in there as well And that lovely moment Where you're talking about Getting on with, like There's a moment with Stephen Where you're like annoyed with each other And you sort of settle it very male-like

In the changing When he came to say sorry It'd been horrible to me He couldn't really put you down hard Oh He could destroy you I found my first QI's very, yeah, it's

nerve-wracking. Well, when he's that, you know, but there's a lot going on with Stephen Frye. There's a lot going on and he wasn't the same every week and I've, my, I was such an irritating twat. I was amazed that he didn't

get more impatient more often but he knew that he'd been a little bit shart on me and came to the dressing room and said sorry in the most grown-up adult way. So I'm a good, I'm a fan and very fond of him and he gives me

really nice blurbs for my books but when you go in Waterstones there isn't a book that he's not on I had always heard that QI Stephen Frye was supposed to be like the clever guy

opposite you and said that you were both going to be team captains and that that was the original plan John Lloyd's original plan was to have Toffs versus Oakes

and his version of an OIC is a middle class graduate from a mining university, and that was me. That's as far down as he could imagine. Yeah, exactly. And he wanted Michael Palin to host it, and Stephen quite wanted to be on a panel because he wanted to muck about and be silly,

and then he was kind of roped into the schoolmaster role. But the moment of genius from John Lloyd was to think, well, we're not going to have team captains, we're going to have this guy and then this idiot next to him. And I didn't realize, you know, it's a classic case of you don't know who the, If you don't know who the Patsy is, it's you. It took me about four years.

I think, oh, I see. I'm just here so that all the other guests feel nice and safe and comfortable because there's always someone more stupid than now. God. And there's a moment in the book where I think it's Sean Locke, who says to you, because he sort of felt defensive of you in the way that they spoke to you on the show. Yeah, Sean stopped coming on after a while.

He said to me, I hope they pay you a fuck of a lot the way they treat you on that show. And we were really stoned. And we were at Bill Bailey's birthday party, I think. And he's going, I hope they pay you a fuck. It was really like, they pay you a fuck of a lot the way they treat you. So, well, they pay me all right. I hope they pay you a fuck of a lot. And he'd never expressed anything like that.

And then once he got you in the corner of a party, you're doomed. And no one will come and rescue you. So Sean's got Alan, he's fucked. And he would take you apart. On stage he was brilliant. Offstage is no one funnier. There's just something in his eyes all the time. You know, he could tell that he's greatly missed.

Yeah. And because he was someone who was just himself. Yeah. He just had found a way. And he quite often was in a room full of people where he felt contempt for most of them. But we all love, he was really loved. He really made you laugh so much. Also, he's one of those comedians.

and this is where like the true, I'm going to use the word genius because I don't think it's the bit that you can't learn or imitate where the audience felt like Sean Locke belonged to them like that, you know, he's theirs, he was the one, they were the one who really got him. It was like the voice of them, wasn't he? It was like, I'm the same as you, these are these fuckers over here. Yeah, this idea that he encapsulated if,

well, if I was really funny, I'd be funny like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, kind of thing, so special. But for me, the weird thing is, I don't know what it was like for you, But when we started, you could almost trace it to what week people started doing stand-up, you know. So Sean and I were about six weeks apart. When did you, that's what you'd say to you. When did you start? Eddie Azard started a year before me, but he'd been on the street for a couple of years.

And so these were the people who were around. And it was like being at school. What year were you in? Your generation, that's what I say. And so you think you're funny does that now. Because you know what? Because you have to do so. you think you're funny, competition in your first year of comedy.

So it just actually is school years now. You know what year you're in from the so you think you're funny final. It's very true. And I do remember, 1998, I was at Fringe in Edinburgh and I was on Jonathan Crete and I had a funny show. And I was selling out a big room. So I'm a cock of the walk. I'm all around a place. Everyone's I wish I could sell them.

Tickets is that. He's not even nice bloat, you know. But that year, so you think you're funny. I think it was Lee Mac, Peter Kay and Tommy Tiernan. Wow. Or something mad like that. I mean, you know, they were the ones a couple of years below you in school sort of thing. So that's already how you thought of it.

And I do remember going in the comedy store dressing room and there was Arthur Smith and Paul Martin there. And I really did think, oh, it's like I've gone into the six-form comedy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You say in a bit of you walked out like, sorry. Sorry, you're boys above. But you do feel like that in comedy. It's that strange school feeling. And there's a bit in the book as well.

You even say like, oh, you know. know, you've heard of this group, this sketch group, Mitchell and Webb. And like, so you're a bit, but you don't really know who they are. And that's the thing I think it's so interesting about this industry is like, it's such a fight at the start to get heard and then you're all fighting together. And as you said, as people get picked up, you end up moving further and further away from that. And that's why I think it's interesting that you've then come back to that, the cold face sort of thing and gone, no, I do want to still be part of that, whereas lots of people do just drift away and go,

it was a horrible bum fight I don't need to go back to that actually do you ever have experiences now where you're in green rooms with much newer comedians yeah so like sort of you know people have been gigging

for less than five years kind of thing yeah and I do but I like to do mixed bills and I like to meet and see other people and I like comedians so I've never really felt like I could never understand a comedian slagging off other comedians

I've just never got it it's hard enough right and you've got the mic you've got your stage you can do what you like but I like my friend West I like seeing God loves the trier I like seeing people up there there was a comedian I forget his name now

I saw him do so many open spots and he had one gag and the gag was I never pay I never pay on the tube never paid for a ticket all I do is as I get off the tube I just hand the ticket inspector a tenor that was the joke I loved it

it made me laugh so much and then the rest of his act it was similar but it was even weirder and none of it landed and I couldn't

no one could save him and I don't know where he is now but that's it that joy and I think if people love comedy and remember that time I think they will

love this book it's such a it was so nostalgic to read but even if you don't it's a brilliant piece of writing I enjoyed it so much I loved reading it was so easy to read

you're such a good writer it's so enjoyable to read and huge thank you huge thank you can give it up please Alan Davies thank you for Alan Davies thank you for listening

to the Weirdo's Book Club my book Lydia Marmalade and the Christmas Wish is available to buy in paperback now for any brilliant children, eight, eight and up. And I'm on tour. Tickets for my show, I Am a Strange Glooper, on sale from sarahpasco.com. It's like an audio book, you can just close your eyes. Just listen to me. You can find out more about what we're going to read if you head to Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weido's Book Club.

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