Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Will I Ever Have Sex Again? by Sofie Hagen with Sofie Hagen

Episode Date: June 27, 2024

This week's book guest is Will I Ever Have Sex Again? by Sofie Hagen Sara and Cariad are joined by multi-award winning comedian, author and podcaster Sofie Hagen to discuss Just Seventeen, crabs, intimacy, lubrication wine and gender.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss issues of sexual consent.  Will I Ever Have Sex Again? by Sofie Hagen is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.You can find Sofie on Instagram @sofiehagendk and Twitter @sofiehagenSara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Naomi Parnell and edited by Aniya Das for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdo's Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but it doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdos Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is, Will I Ever Have Sex Again? With Sophie Hagen. What's it about? Sophie hasn't had sex for eight years

and the book is a fearless and considered reflection on why. What qualifies it for the Weirdo's Book Club? Well, we're banging 24 seves, yeah? Like all of us, aren't we? In this episode, we discuss. Just 17. Crabbs. Intimacy.

Lubication wine and gender. Joining us this week is Sophie Hagen. Sophie is a multi-award-winning London-based Danish comedian, author, podcaster and content creator. In 2015, Sophie won the best newcomer award at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival. And since then, Sophie has been absolutely smashing the stand-up circuit and touring all over the place. She's also the author of Happy Fat, which was published in 2019. And Sophie is the host of the wildly successful podcast, Who Hurt You, and also Helphole. Just a heads-up listeners, in this episode, we do discuss issues of sexual consent.

Sophie. Sophie Hagan! That's how we saw it. No, I like that. It's very early in the morning for that, but I'm into it. I got the fear about your pronunciation of your surname. Oh, I was confident. You were confident.

And I just went for a Sophie like that. Hagen and Hagen. I've heard Hagen so much, but is that incorrect. I think Hagen is the most, the one I go for. What would they say in Denmark? Hayne. Hain? Yeah.

That's wrong. I have no idea. But also, if I had to go with that, I had to go with the Danish pronunciation of Sophie as well. Which is? Sophie. Sophie Hain. Sophie Hain. And then suddenly it's a whole new name, isn't it?

Yeah, that's a different. I'm like, that's a different person. Sophie Hain. Yeah. Yeah, I did you all a favour by Englishifying. Now I feel bad. You've had to anch to Sophie Hagen. No, it feels that.

But you should be Sophie Hain. Well, that's the thing, no? Because that's the other thing. People can't really pronounce it. So then there's just people saying, so, you're it? It's like, no. Not that either, actually. Oh, okay.

Well, as long as you're okay with it. I'm okay with whatever. Okay, okay. All good. I really want people to buy and read your book, Sophie. Thank you. One, because I think it's going to be better for people as individuals, no matter who they are,

but also I think it's going to be really much better for society. And then for you, because I want you to write more books. I want you to explore everything about humanity, please. It's called Will I Ever Have Sex Again? incredible title. Thank you very much. We're very hard on that for eight years. Also, it's something you think just towards the end of sex.

Isn't it? Is that what you think? Can I ever have sex again? What's that it? I think, that's done. That's good. Bye, Kerry and load. Yeah, oh, that's done.

Do one want a tea? So, beginning of the journey of speaking about the book, and so because there are lots of topics in here that could potentially be sensitive or, When someone's written a book about, you know, really private things, I feel wary of going, so you know that guy. Because if we were talking about this. Well, we've both written books about personal things. And so I think we've got to experience interviews.

And you're like, oh gosh, talking about it is different to writing about it. But I think it depends on who you're talking to. Despite feeling quite comfortable with the topic in itself, but you just go, oh, but you're a stranger though. Who are you? I think also what we're talking about as well, like you choose to write about personal things, but that doesn't mean you know or want to talk about them. And there's an assumption, well, if you want to write about it, you must want to talk about it. And that's not always the case.

Well, a lot of it just requires so much context that doesn't really always exist in interviews. In a quick interview, yeah. Yeah, especially when journalists, when you can't, you have no control. Like, this is, again, different because we're having a conversation. And I assume you're not going to cut bits so that I sound weird. Edit it together. I hate all people. I have too much faith in you, maybe.

But again, when it's a journalist, you're like, oh, I know you're going to cut this down to one sentence. And I've just had to start saying with journalists, I've started saying, oh, I reject the premise of your question. They get so angry. I like that. They just start twitching and they're like, what do you mean? I'm just like, I'm not going to, like, the whole basis of your question.

I'm not on top of that. I reject the premise of your question. That's so clever. And I think what you're highlighting, so is the context. like the issues that you're talking about in this book and as you said in Happy Fat, it's like they require a context of lots of other thoughts that we need to hold while we're discussing one thing. So this is about you and sex and sex life and intimacy but also cultural and society and you can't just be like, you can't be like, why don't you want to have sex?

Because that is what someone's going to come out with you. Yeah, that's my next question. You could imagine a sort of magazine article. And if it was on this topic, what would it be? saying. Yeah, yeah. And it would be saying, buy some new pants, you know, wax off your pubs. Get low light and a music, guys.

That's important. Perhaps a lubricating wine. Although also buy a separate lube. Don't use the wine. No, I've just invented lubricated wine. It's going to be a thing now. And play with it. Yeah.

Oh my God. That tastes like a delicious shably. Maybe. Maybe you've got something there. I'm a gluey consistency. I'm going to be on Dragon. Dennex series. Who wants to try and sat, Deborah Median.

Pop me pants off. It won't be a second. But it would be, shut up, what's wrong with you? Yes. We all need to have sex. Does it matter if you enjoy it? Yeah. You know, as long as someone ejaculates,

congratulations, you're welcome back to the human race. And someone is penetrated, which you talk about so much in this book. There's so much about penetration. That the idea of sex that we have as well is very heteronorative. heteronautive phalancentric which is male body, female body something going in something

yeah an absence being filled whole and polyfill of that whole problem solved so yeah this is a book that's answering those questions in a much more nuanced way especially than we grew up with

thinking so much about things and deconstructing them and what lies underneath them so that it's so much bigger than stimulating genitals Yeah. I'm not surprised it took you a long time because this is a huge, huge topic. And you haven't treated it likely. You have deconstructed it, as Sarah said. Yeah. Well, I was guilty of the same thing in the beginning. I was like, there's going to be a book about how I'm going to bang. And in a year I'll be banging a lot. And then I'll write the book about how to bang. And you said you would end it with an orgy. Yeah. I really thought it would end with me. Because there's a plus-size porn star called Carla Lane in L.A. who does these, it's called Taco Tuesdays. like an orgy for fat people essentially on Tuesdays and there's tacos.

I was going to say, there'd better be tacos. Yeah, I'm not sure about the sort of logistics of the tacos and the orgy. I was excited to find out, I'll be honest with you. So that was the plan when I pitched it to editors and I was just like, and at the end I'll be banging at the orgy. Taco Tuesday. We probably, most of us can't understand any other, in inverted commas, happy ending to a sexless story unless it's,

sex. Yeah, yeah. And if you could have lots of it, even better. Yeah. I think you kind of, you had this idea that people want the, oh, and then at the end it's all resolved and everything is fine. And even my publisher was like, oh, we could just leave it to be like an open ending. I was like, no, it'll be banging.

Happy ending. She's like, well, let's just go. Let's just see the first couple of conversations I had with people when they were asking questions back. Because that's the one thing I found about this. It's less about finding the answers. and then almost accepting that the question or the answer to that question will change

all the time and constantly and then trying to be okay with that which is really hard because I think I went in there being like I've learned all this stuff and I think it's wrong and it's not been healthy for me to think that life is like this or sex is like this so I want the other answers

that are correct and true. What turns out to be the case is oh no that's not how life works like you have to continuously ask yourselves the question and then figure out what the answer is in the moment. And, oh, that's annoying, isn't it? I think one of the things that I really, really got from your writing and your process in

this was that one's relationship to sex, which means anyone's, no matter who they are, and whether they're having it and with who or not, is a constant journey of re-evaluation and relearning where you are now, which will be different to where you were before and where you will be in the future. And if you are in touch with that, you'll be so much healthier. And if you are having sex, it's going to be so pleasurable. I think maybe for a lot of people, they feel like, what, constantly, thinking. But where sex hurts us or fails or people stop having it is because the journey stops.

So firstly, we start with, so the first chapter, proper chapter, is sexual miseducation. Yeah. Because all of us, no matter where we grew up, who we were perceived to be, who we perceived ourselves to be, got given negative, negative, messages. Yeah. Oh, no messages. It's so lacking. Like I had a lot of, a lot of people wrote me, I did a survey and got 1,800 people to tell me their stories. So many of them were from religious backgrounds, which is one of the things I did not grow up with that. And just reading about the things that they would learn about, if you masturbate, Jesus will be disappointed and sad or whatever. He's watching and he's not into it. He's not. He's like,

Oh, this is disgusting. That's such a, I mean, it's just such a heavy thing to unlearn. Yeah, there's so much of it. That Jesus is watching you or Jesus is there or that every, they have made masturbation and Jesus one thing in your mind. Yeah. Do you know there's another thing that happens with grief, sorry. There's again.

Here I go. They say to kids, they'll always be watching you. And this is quite a big thing if you lose a parent or grandpa as a teenager. And then you're like, are they watching me do everything? Because that's when you start exploring. sexuality or even drink you're doing bad things and lots of kids grow up teenagers go out being like oh my god I can't misbehave because a ghost Jesus or so the dead person is also omnipotent which is supposed to make you feel comforted it's what old people

say to me oh they'll always be watching over you and then you're like and when you're doing anything when you get your GCSE results but also how come so they can decide that oh so they get to decide they'll come down just for GCSE results day and then they'll go but they won't come down when I'm like having terrible sex with the boy like I definitely shouldn't be like it's this thing of like people watching over you. But if you're dead, that's what you want to watch as well. You don't want to watch a GCSE, you're like, Jesus. They have to be in this.

I thought I died for a reason. Again, it's just being brought up to have so much shame around sex and that's a direct consequence of like, that is like religion, religion. But even like we grew up incredibly atheist in my family. And even so, the purity that comes from religion and Christianity was still there a bit. Like you still had to be a bit ashamed of wanting it or like being horny or like any of these things. Like that was still a dangerous thing. Yeah.

Like you should be sexy, but you shouldn't want sex. But you should have sex with the guys. But then once you had, that was the wrong thing to do. And it was just, there was so many. And you shouldn't enjoy it. But also you should look like you have fun. But you shouldn't actually have fun. But he should be pleased.

And it's like, and then you still get the kids at school calling you a whole. I remember the whole thing about it definitely, definitely the ending had to be that you did give out. But don't give out too easily. make him work for it. Because actually what he wants to feel is a sense of achievement. Like he's worn you down. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He knows you don't want to, but he can't you. And then afterwards he can be like, not only do I have sex. It was with someone who didn't really want to. Oh, God. So weird, isn't it? What a weird thing to teach children. But that's how you control sexuality.

Yeah. So it's sort of weird and then it makes utter sense. And also, I think, I don't know the dates of it, but we're definitely Section 28 kids where it was made illegal to even mention homosexuality. in an educational setting. Like that's another whole side of shame that you're like, you know,

if you're heterosexual, at least what you are being taught is you will do this, but don't enjoy it. Whereas if you're queer or gay, you'll be taught, oh, what you're doing is. It's so disgusting. I can't even mention it in the classroom. Yeah, again, it's the earliest feelings

are either not talked about so you think you're abnormal. In my little tiny culture of where I grew up in Denmark, like being gay was sort of fine, but it was them. Like, oh, there are gay people in the world and that's fine. It was never, could you be gay, maybe?

It's always like, no, no, no. Yeah, loads of gay people. Great for them. Not me, though. I'm straight, but, oh my God, I like Lisa a lot. But in a straight way. Yeah, I thought that was really funny in your book about like, oh, we're just kissing my friend for the boys.

Just for the boys. Where are they? Not in the room right now, but, you know, we'll tell them about it later and they'll be so happy. And if she leaves me, I'm heartbroken, but it's for the guys. And they were what's called. Like female chauvinist pigs. So there was then this sort of form of feminism, which was reclamation of sexuality. But then again, it was a very performed kind of.

Ladet culture, do you mean? Ladet, yeah. 90s la dead culture, which was like, what's that word? Ladet. Ladet. That was a big thing. Like Zoe Ball. You were friends with boys and you got drunk with boys.

Oh, you're like not like the other girls. Yes. Yeah. So we still hate women. We like a cool woman that men like hanging out with. We hate other women. We're the best woman. Because we're not girly.

We drink beer and we swear and we smoke. But again, and sexy. Yes, very attractive. And that is absolutely my teen, our teenage years where like the ultimate you can be is like Ladek was like, oh, you're sexy and funny and cool and you know about football. Wow, you're a man. You're a man.

You're nearly as good as a man. Nearly. In Moore magazine, they had a thing called like Position of the Fortnight. So what I remember. This was for teenage girls. More magazine was racing. Like 12 years old. was more innocent.

13 years old. So you were a girl that you chose to read more magazine. It was like you wanted to read about sex, but I would never buy more magazines because I found it scary. So I'd buy Just 17, which would be like, if a boy's pressuring you, say no and talk to your friends. Like, you are worth more than that. No, Moore magazine was very, very.

And it literally had a drawing to people, like a man and woman having sex. It was always a girl riding a boy backwards. Yeah. It was always cowboy position. But it would tell you what the position was. You thought 95% of sex wasn't even kissing. It's just a cowboy hat. It was a cowboy hat.

And that would be like your sex. And I think they got to the point where they were making it up. I remember one where there's a bloke standing up and there's a woman doing a crab. Oh, you mean a crab arch? A back and a bridge, a bridge. Yeah. Sorry. What do you think of a crab?

Well, I was thinking more leg. She's walking sideways. Yeah, I was like, how does she get near him? A bridge then. But we did used to call it a crab arch. Yeah. And now they call it a bridge. I'd say that.

For that same reason. Yeah. People got confused. And the man was like, stop being a crab. Come near my penis. No, no, no, I've got to pinch it. That's what more magazines are. It's wild how much positions was part of, like, learning about sex.

And it seemed like that was the only thing you could learn was the many different positions. That would be the only sort of discussion, actually, or not even a discussion, but a hint that you were supposed to be getting pressure from it, is that different positions would stimulate, again, biology almost different parts of your anatomy. So how childhood goes is you learn about things before you know about things and what context to put them in. So you learn about sex before you. are having sex hopefully and that then informs the rest of your sex life unless you have an unlearning. Yeah.

I loved what you write about relationship to body. You can't separate your relationship with your own body to your relationship with sex. And that sounds so obvious people say. Sometimes we have, our bodies are us. We completely inhabit them. And then we then treat them like an appendage and they're wrong or someone else might not like them and we separate ourselves from them. And that's separate, you know, being viewed, how do they look at me?

What do they think of me? Am I to this or to that, you know, old postpartum or all these different things? That is just a load of gates and barriers between, well, sex with yourself and sex with somebody else and sex. Yeah. And so it almost, that would be like your red flag for, this is the wrong publisher. You can't talk about fat and sex. Yeah. Yeah, like that was a pretty big part of it.

Because as if you think about it. If you think about how we treat our bodies, both in terms of, you know, we get the outside voices that are like, your body is shit. And oftentimes we internalize that. We're like, yeah, my body is shit. Then you punish your body by dieting or cutting it or whatever you do to try and change your body. So it's finally okay. And you look in the mirror every day and you go, oh, this is disgust. How are you then meant to accept that someone wants to touch you in a loving and safe way?

like it doesn't make logical sense that that's even a possibility. Yeah. Like how do you believe that someone wants to do that? Hearing you say that, I even think how would you be attracted to the people that would have loving feelings towards your body? Yeah, you'd be like you're weird. Yeah, they're the people you would avoid. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and then you'd make, so right at the very beginning, you're already making bad choices by who you allow near you because of how you are with you. Oh, Sophie. Soffi. I just think it's just going to resonate with so many people. I did. There was so much, there was so, you know, again, there's so much you talk about the other chapter, you know, sexual trauma, gender, pornography. And I thought the bit, if you could talk more about the safety, I thought that was like, again, of just not discussed of someone needs to feel safe and you talk about that in your own journey of not having sex, of like, you haven't felt safe. Well, it just kept coming up. Because I interviewed quite a lot of people in the book and everyone mentioned safety in one way, even if they didn't say the word, what they were saying was, safety. And it's a word you don't hear in relation to sex ever. But of course, like, when we don't

feel safe, our nervous system is like, okay, I got to protect myself. And it usually does that by shutting down, going into fight-flight mode. You dissociate. And in order to have a pleasant, lovely sexual experience, ideally you are in your body and you're present. So that way you can learn, oh, here's my boundary and here's my desires and here's my feelings. And here's my feelings about this thing and here's my attraction. So if you are not feeling safe, you cannot be in your body. And then the chances of you being able to, like, the chances of you ignoring your own boundaries are too high.

I went to see a porn shoot, ethical porn shoot. And the, the amount of work they put into making the models feel safe. I was like, oh, this is, I've never done this. Yeah, like that's a porn shoot. And they're making sure they're looking after in the way that you're not looking after yourself in a sexual encounter. And they treated as a job. They know what they have to do to make this like a good experience for everyone, also the ones watching. It's like, wow, no one's ever sat down with me and gone, what do you like, what do you not like? How do you

feel in your body today? That was the first thing they asked the models. How do you feel in your body today? And you say, they ask, is there any way you don't want me to touch. Yeah. And it is sort of mind-blowing to think. And yet lovers every day, not asking, not check in, just hoping. Or assuming arrogantly, yeah, I think I know. everything you're saying there as well comes back to like especially English culture of like getting pissed drinking like drinking so much

that you'll feel brave enough to ask to kiss someone or to go back to their house and like that means you're out of your body you're not connected with your body when you're in that state and obviously sure we'll you can that I'm not judging that but again it's questioning why do you need that is something that becomes your default with having sex

or the way that you are intimate with people I thought you talked about really brave with like your own feelings. You write in the book, your own experiences of where you've totally let your boundary be crossed over or you've made jokes about it and then it's taken years later for someone like a sex age case saying, oh, that sounds like a horrible story and you're like, it's a funny story. It's such a horrible story. It is such a horrible story.

One feels that someone is so cruel and so I guess so negligent with someone's feeling. Yeah, and that story. But if you're not in your body, that's also when you go, oh, but I didn't feel anything. I wasn't sad. And it's like, you're just because you weren't feeling the sadness. The sadness was there. And that's what's coming up now when you're trying to have sex.

The sadness is like, oh, no, no, no, because 10 years ago, you had a really bad experience and you've not dealt with that yet. So we're not letting you get near anyone's genitals until you've dealt with that to make sure it doesn't happen again. It's so, I think there's so many young people. anyone, any person can have a negative sex experience. And it doesn't have to be, you know, the worst negative sexual experience. It just can be a negative sexual experience.

Negative sexual experiences can happen between two people who really like each other and do respect each other. Yes, yes, exactly. And a loving relationship. It can still happen. It can still happen. And like you said, and then because you don't have the vocabulary, because you've read these terrible magazines or you don't understand.

You don't know at what point it was transgressed and it happened. People having sex they're not really into. People, you know, having sex too soon. I'm not knowing it's too soon until it feels like there's no point of return, not being able to stop things. Or you talk about polite sex. It's rude if I say no. Yeah, might as well just do it. He'll be sad.

He came all this way. I'm in zone six. Like, you know, the taxi back home would be so expensive. Like all this stuff that absolutely, it's your body. It's not like you're lending them a top.

Yeah. It's like, no, there's more than that. You're allowed to say no to those things. But the disassociation that you talk about of like things that happen when you're younger. And it sometimes. sadly does take 10 years for you to realize something was awful.

You can know it wasn't great, but it sometimes takes a long time or other people's reactions when you start eventually admitting something to be like, oh, it wasn't just not great. It was awful. I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to do it. That's a big one to admit to yourself even. Because then you have to deal with those feelings.

Yeah. Because if it's just a story, oh, I didn't really want to, no big deal. They'd be like, no, I really didn't want to and I wasn't listen to. Oh, that's really fucking painful. Oh, I didn't want to. And I ignored my. And you have one of these stories in your book of, you know, the stomach, your spidey sense, everything, saying, and even acknowledging to yourself, I don't want to, but yet here I am, still walking along with them or going to the cash point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, in that story, what was what I found interesting, thinking back on it was, I was in the situation, and then he left for a bit to go get money, and then I knew, oh, I don't want to do it. I don't want to do this at all. I really don't want to do it. And then when he came back, I just went with it. Yeah, I was like, oh, wow. Like sometimes maybe that's a way for me to make sure I know what I'm doing.

It's like, go to the bathroom and then be like, right, if he's not here, do I still want to do it? No, get out. Yeah, yeah. But it becomes just like, oh, but now he went all the way to the cash fine. I mean, to pay for a hotel, by the way. With your conversations with Juno.

Yes. Roche, a trans author. They're amazing. Yeah. And absolutely loved everything they said. Oh my God. You know's interview I found so confronting because it was like what they were suggesting, the joy that they were suggesting was possible was like, my God, it might not have we all lived.

Like they described that oneness. Yeah. Like being in your body, actually like getting the sun on your body. On a specific part of your body. Obviously, sun cream everybody. Be careful. I'm always thinking, very pale person. Always worrying.

But like that chapter really stayed for me because it was like, the freedom that obviously had been hard won for Juno and had been a long process of painful experiences to get to that. And I'm thinking very, very deeply about what it is to inhabit a body. Yes. And they use that phrase, the oneness, like to actually be in your body and then be enjoying it.

And you do start thinking that, yeah, if you take it that seriously, then you're probably not going to walk into situations that you don't want to because you're really thinking, like, do I want to put this in my body? I don't want this next to my body. Yeah. You kind of prioritize yourself and like value yourself.

And also you end up if you are okay with being yourself and just yourself, you don't like that's, I think one of the big conclusions I came to with the book was, I don't need sex to make me whole. Like it's not necessarily something I, if it happens and it's great, good. Like that will be nice and I would like to have that in my life. But if it doesn't happen, I'm still fine. Yeah. And that, I think, is a freeing thought as well to let go of some of that.

Like, you should be having sex all the time because that's the thing to do. Well, that's enjoyment. If you're not doing that, you're missing out on a party somehow. It's when you're talking to publishers where someone's a bit afraid of using the word sex. And they write the phrase, Sophie has not been intimate or experienced intimacy for eight years. And I found that really confronting because I think we're all much more conversant about sex. And, you know, like it's not intimacy in the same. that were watching it getting

Why didn't they call the follow up that and just like that? So, because it actually feels like a huge, a huge thing. Yeah, that feels like big, doesn't it? Yeah.

But yes, if we did call sex intimacy, suddenly we would realize it is a lifetime of thought. Intimacy education. Intimacy education. At school. At school. And for the rest of your life.

Yeah, because intimacy is not easy. Yeah. It does require work. You have to be vulnerable, which means you have to work on all your shifts. You have to know what's going on in you so much and be so aware of it so you can even begin that communication with somebody else

and then learning theirs. Yeah. And it's being a connection with someone. Yeah. You have to be looking someone in the eyes and be like, this is us now doing this thing. I don't think I've done that with many of the sexual experiences I've had. It's just been a, we've both been playing a role.

We've both been doing like a, following a script, you know, playing a game. This is sexy, yeah. Yeah, we're doing the sex thing now. And you're doing 20 minutes of blow, because that's what they do in the TV. 20 minutes. I know, I just saw that. Oh, my God.

You're going to be getting DMs. That was what I was 20 minutes. Because I didn't read women's magazines that much. I read men's magazines because I was one of the lads. I was one of the lads. You're an adept. If someone telling men they can have 20 minutes blowjobs. Oh, it's always like how to please.

Someone needs to cut that shit out. I know. I remember being at a house party and I had a boyfriend and we had not had sex in like two years. And I felt so guilty about it. But I just could not. I didn't like him, but I didn't know that at the time. And his friend who was a girl came over.

And it was just like a bunch of guys, because I was friends with all the guys. And then this girl was like, I just don't understand why women don't want to give men blowjub. I love it. It's like my main thing. And I was so angry. I was like, you bitch. She's lying. She's fucking lying.

You can say that because you're sitting there single trying to pick one of them. She's trying to say, I'm so. cute and horny. Yeah. But she's also, I mean, the reason I'm not sticking up for it, but I feel sorry for her. Yes. She is over absorbed that this is what they want. That's how I got him by someone saying the same thing in a circle of single friends.

Yeah. Like, but I was just like, do you stop it? But that's what we were taught. Like, oh, she's the best one. She's the good one now because she does do the thing. But none of us really want to do the same. It's like, oh, well, now she's standing there being like, I'm a better option. Yeah.

I would give you, I love low jobs. And you're like, it's not true. It's actually really difficult. to be in a relationship with him. My job hurts all the time. There was a girl in Mumford. She basically kept telling people's boyfriends that girls were lying about not

wanting or liking anal because she likes it. It's the same thing where they go, Lauren says you do if you just... I've got a couple of books you need to read. The history of feminism. Obviously, great for you. I'm not going to yuck someone else's young. But stop saying.

Stop saying everybody. For all the saying. Everybody, girls are lying. That's so funny, isn't it? Girls are lying. Yeah. Oh, that's like a forbidden thing that some women aren't doing

and men don't know why they're not doing it and she's like, I'm speaking the language. Like that's so, there's so much going on in that sentence. God, I'm sorry, fuck off. I'm trying to remember the name of that really famous golden age porn film where her clitoris has moved to her throat. Oh, deep throat. Deep throat.

Yeah, yeah. And then everyone was just like, that would be handy, wouldn't it? Because then at least, like, women having a 20 minute blow job will be like, He was excellent. It was all clitorals. I can only eat soup.

But apart from it, it was excellent. He'd burn it off. Don't have soup. Smoothies. Cosmonies. Room temperature only. It can't be calorie base that you're doing it for. But at least I'm burning calories.

That's also what people used to say about jizz when I was going up. Oh, yeah, it was good for your skin and stuff. Oh, it's not entirely any calories. No, but that's what they used to say about sex in general. Like the average rumpy, pumpy session burns 80 calories. Like number one, that's a carrot stick, 80 calories. And you don't want to be doing it going, no, I should probably frost a bit more. Exactly.

Or being like, can we squat while I'm doing this? I need to do a crab. So I'm like, my glutes are getting the workout. What if I'm really helpful when I'm making love is to think about how much I hate my body. Well, Justin Hancock, who's the sex educator, I kept saying things like, well, decide what sex is. I'm like, no, give me the answers, Justin. I just want you to say, I just want you to say, oh, so the way you really do sex is like this. This is the correct way to do it. Yeah, you don't start with the blowjub, you start with the other thing. And where do you think

that comes from? Do you think that comes from doubting yourself or thinking, I have learned, I have got an A star at this. I guess if you're writing a book about it, so, you're like, just give me the definition. But it's also the, I think it's because I was fleeing the real answer, which is, no, no, know, be in your body and the answer is in there? And I was like, no, no, no. Can we not just tell me what the answer is so I don't have to be in my body and be in my body and like confront the real feelings? And that was when I got annoyed was when people were like, whatever they said, it was what they really said was, well, what do you think? What do you think? What do you?

Like when Miranda Kane, former sex worker, she's a comedian as well, she was like, well, what kind of sex do you want? I was like, well, how are you going to get anywhere? If you don't know what you like. Which is like dating your voice, isn't it? It's like, well, what kind of person do you want? Like, you can't just be like, I just want someone to fix all my problems. What should I want? What's good?

I don't know. Tell me what's good. What's on the menu that I should have? Sophie, I wonder, because you describe, you call it a situation ship. Yeah, I think that made it really difficult because I think there's a part of our situation, relationship. A relationship. A friendship.

A fair. You had an affair. Because it was, I would just say because it's based on dishonesty and that's how we use that word as a culture. But that's true because I felt, I think in that affair, I felt, like, I didn't feel like I could say that it was sex. But it did, it did feel like, well, I still don't have to. But it would make you not trust your definition of sex. Yeah. And honestly, it would make me feel silly. Yeah. If I was like, yeah, we had loads of sex. And someone would be like, oh, yeah, what did you do? Well, we didn't touch. We weren't naked. We didn't kiss. No genitals went in

anywhere and we didn't come. Uh-huh. So you just, like, because so much around that, affair was me feeling a bit crazy about the whole thing. So I was like if I was to acknowledge that as sex, but then anyone could point, poke holes in it. You're like, well, by whose definition? And that's the problem, isn't it? It's by whose definition. And that invalidates your definition.

Because it's like, well, your opinion doesn't count. And you're like, but I was the one in the room. So why doesn't my opinion count? It definitely definitely matters. And I can flip it for you. some people have proclivities or fetishes and things that aren't if they're not sexual to you. So for instance, someone might have a foot fetish. And if someone is doing their fetish on you without your permission,

I was doing cameos briefly for Choose Love. And I had a foot fetishist and a tickle fetishist both asking me to do things for videos. And when they started then recurrently asking for different things, it became clear that it was sexual. And that was such a transgression of boundaries. because even though that doesn't feel sexual to me going through my old shoe cupboard or tickling myself, the idea that someone was using things in a certain way was so dishonest.

It's the line, it's suddenly the boundaries crossed. So it doesn't need both of you to agree if it is sexual for one of you. Yeah. Yeah. But I understand, again, that feeling of, well, when I bring my case to the society jury, it's very easy to poke holes in it because they're like, yeah, but, yeah, but this.

Yeah, because sex is actions, not emotions. Yeah. And again, it's that thing of, like, Like, because as a society, we would love everything to be so clear cut. Yeah. Sorry to bring it back to grief. But it reminds me of when people go, oh, well, it's been so long, I can't have any upset anymore. Like, it was 20 years when that person died, so I shouldn't be upset.

And so much of the work I do is like, but you are. Which is why I assume why we like the stages of grief, right? Yeah. Oh, I've gone through them, it's over now. And the same with sex weirdly. Yeah. Because I think of like, woo, start kissing. That's when it starts.

Yeah. And then he comes and that's when it ends. Yeah, sex is completed. Completed. They did the exact same thing as with grief actually in terms of states of arousal. And it was a really massive moment, I mean, it's a long time ago now, but when they realized that, you know, how it went with what we call the male body, but essentially that it was in arousal, you know, which is sort of an erection, orgasm,

and then the arousal plummets, and that's the graph. And they assumed that the same was for women, or what we call women's bodies. And then what they found is that women have the potential to be aroused, and they sort of float around there for ages. orgasm doesn't stop it, there is no sort of end. You know, like Catherine Bohart's stand up about lesbian sex, just not having a clear end. And then they realised, oh, I see, this is the problem with heterosexuals. Yeah.

It's like, one of you is like, now I'm sleepy. Yeah. I was like, what? You can't have 16 hours in me. It's funny, isn't it? Everything is completely personal and everyone has completely different experiences. So why wouldn't that be the same for sex? So when you are saying to an educator, what is sex?

Of course he has to say to you. Well, what is it for you? and I thought that bit where you wrote about, you know, the experience of, was it the flirt workshop? Or where she lightly whipped you. I can't remember what workshop that was. Yes, she worked for a sex brand. Sex, yes.

And you were like, oh, well, this, she's enjoying it. I'm enjoying it. Yeah. We're in a workshop. But then I would categorize this. Again, I'd expect society jury to be like, well, you didn't have sex with that woman. Yeah. Like she just whipped you in a workshop.

But if she'd done the same thing in a basement and we'd said, I'm into this, you're into this. Yeah. Can you please whip me in a basement? And surely that would be considered sex like most people. Yeah. We did a sexual thing. Like if someone walked in and asked me like, oh, they were having, like they were doing a sex thing. And again, if you were in a faithful relationship and your partner was doing that without telling you.

Yes. Yeah. That counts. Yeah. And I absolutely love your chapter on transness. Number one, because I mean, because I think it's so fascinating. Again, all of us, as children were told we were a sex or a gender and then that there were correct ways. along the spectrum of what that gender encapsulated

and people talking about their own relationship to that. It's just the most fascinating, interesting thing. And again, just a journey that individuals go on and decide for themselves and then help the people around them if there is sort of language entailed or something. Yeah, and I thought your description of trans this was again really helpful and a conversation that needs to be had of like...

And I find you like that online actually, really, really helpful. It's very clear, isn't it? I feel like you're not speaking with judgment. And I think so much of the, when we get into trans, talking about trans issue is so volatile or like, it's this, it means this. And then of course, you know, people panic and react, but just to just have an exploration of actually what it means and you considering yourself part of that trans community, which I think some people would be like, oh, but that's not, you don't, you don't put, yeah, yeah. And so again, it's like opening your brains, like, that's what I felt, like, oh, you can look at it in a broader view. But this is why I read. This is why I read.

This is why I read books. It's because you want to have someone else allows you into their mind and their experience. Well, I think it's really, because it's the same thing. Like this whole book could have the same trajectory and be about gender. It's this thing of, hey, what if we didn't settle on the script? And what if we just opened up a bit and thought, what if it's more or what if it's different or what if it's not that? or what if it? Like, it doesn't, well, I was going to say it doesn't hurt anyone, but it does.

Like, when you really have to look inside and see what have I learned, what am I doing just because I'm doing it, like, because I've been told that's the right thing to do. Like, speaking to Juno was perfect because they were just like showing the beautiful side of having looked into it and having questioned it. And, oh, it's euphoria. That's why it's gender euphoria. It's amazing when you realize, oh, I'm now like this. word makes me feel like this about my gender.

Like, oh. That is the journey of self-love. You know, I really identified what you said about being a person because I felt like a person as a child and a human being. And then I started starting comedy and was told I wasn't. Yeah. I was a woman. But I then, you know, the journey I went through was then I rejected a lot of the things that I was told women were, but I still felt like I was a woman. Like the definitions were wrong, but I was a woman.

So I know that there's a way that you come through it, which is, yeah. it's not that by questioning it, I just think it's such a fascinating thing for some people, they're equally sure. Oh, I absolutely know that's what I am. Yeah, and that's one of the ways I found out I wasn't was because I assumed, oh, this must be what it's like being a woman. You walk around feeling really weird about being a woman.

And like, that's just, oh, because I've always heard, you know, women go through a lot of difficult things. And this must just be one of them that you feel a bit like, oh, whenever someone refers to you as a woman. And then speaking to someone who was like, oh, I'm a woman. We're like, oh, and you don't, like, feel weird about that? Yeah. Love it. Whereas I was walking around, hating the way women were described.

I'm like, that's not right. I'm a woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like, oh, I should be those things, shouldn't I? Because people do tell me I'm a woman. And I feel like I'm itching and I'm wearing a wrong suit and wearing a wrong body suit. And I hear people who say, you know, oh, but what is a woman then? I'm like, yeah, I know.

I know. It's hard, right? It's really hard. What is it? Yeah, it's hard. Like, we're such packed creatures. We want people to feel the same. That's what makes us feel safe.

And we want the answers. We want like clear-cut answers. Like, okay, so if you're not a woman, can you change them? Can you then look not like a woman then? Yeah. Because otherwise, this is very confusing. Otherwise, what is happening? Yeah.

And then people like, what if you change your mind? It's like, I could. Yeah. Like, it could change. I know. And then people, like, they can't. And it's the same with the whole sex thing. It is exactly the same.

Exactly the same. because the whole conversation around rolling consent is that you can like things one day, not the next day, not the next minute with one person once and then never again or for the absolute rest of your life. We struggle to accept that it's a changing process. It's life long. Everything's a grey area. Living is questioning your gender and questioning.

And again, if they'd asked you at 21 was that sex experience, fine. You'd just said, yeah, it was amazing. It was a laugh. And then 10 years on, you're like, oh, hmm, actually it wasn't. Like 21-year-old wasn't wrong. that's how she felt at the time. So again, I think we just have to give each other space for change and feeling different things.

But I do think you have to remain calm in your own change to accept other people's. I think that's what flips people a bit. If you don't have that inner like, I've done the work. I've also thought about things. Oh, yeah, I am a woman. I'm not a woman. This is the word I'm comfortable with.

And if you, like kids, kids discuss this stuff all the time. I constantly have a conversation with my kids. The people who are worried, the people are always. worried. I think they don't want to do any thinking. They just go, but who's allowed in what toilets? And if it's sex, how will I know if they're doing it on the bus? I know. I know. And I think a lot of us who've grown up in that very specific time we all grew up in, I think we put so much value onto things that are not good to put value. So like people who put value on, well, I am thin and that means I'm worthy of love. And then when someone comes in and goes,

it was okay to be fat, oh, like they feel like you're taking away their, there's a limited amount of love. I work really hard for this love actually and I'm hungry. So you can't take it from me. Oh like if you if you it's like oh I spent my whole life purchasing a boat and then someone is like, oh, I just got this boat for free. Like no. But no, I've spent all this money.

Now you've devalued my boat and I was going to sell it. It's the same thing with I think a lot of people with gender. Like we've learned this is how you are the correct woman. And then if someone has spent the whole life, maybe not wanting to but has lived that life. of like, I'm doing the right thing, the woman thing. I followed all the rules. And then someone is saying, no, not one. Like, I think they feel like you're taking value away from them.

And I think it's the same with sexuality with anything where people have put all this value onto this one thing. And they followed all the rules. And we're told that that's how society functions. Yeah. That without it, you know, it's always a short leap to, well, what will happen to the family? Yeah. And I think it's important to caveat, having friends where some of the,

a child is going through a trans experience and it's important to caveat that that is hard. That can be hard for a family. I love them, but this is hard for me to get my head around and I'm struggling and you need to allow that confusion to be there and but also be like, but it's okay that they are going through this place. And you get that it's hard for both sides

because that is something that's happening like within a family unit and then outside of that house there are really violent people saying violent things. So it's really hard to be like, like you're fighting one battle with one arm and then you're trying to be compassionate with another one. And you can see how people go, well, you were just really aggressive to J.K. Rowling. And so are you also going to be aggressive towards me? And it's like, oh, no, no, no.

Like, I'm screaming at her because she's being really toxic and horrible. But if you misgender me, I'll say, oh, by the way, you got it wrong. And then we're still fine. And I think people are so scared of being, like, shouted at or afraid that they're going to do something wrong. and then they get even more defensive and then the whole thing becomes even harder. Well, actually, all trans people I know are really chill about things

on a human to human level. It's all the systemic stuff that is aggressive. And I know this happens with black people as well as they're having to do a lot of educational work for people who don't understand. I think this book is so important and so brilliant because I feel like you've made it so accessible, which sounds like a light thing to do,

but it's huge. It's a brilliant book. It's out now. We thoroughly recommend it. It's okay to be confronted by these things. Yeah. It's such an enjoyable read. Yeah, yeah.

And to have as part of one's own journey, and I think it'll start lots of conversations. And if you have small children like I do, there is a little sneaky thing you can do, which is take off the cover. This is amazingly. There's a little... Amazingly brilliant.

So there's something that you should do. Take off the cover and then you won't have a child going, will I ever have sex again? Sophie Hager. Mom, what's it? So that was my tip. So thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club.

Sarah's novel, Weirdo, and my book, You Are Not Alone, are both out in paperback and available to buy now. You can find out about all of the upcoming books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriaz Weirdo's Book Club. If you'd like to know more about Sophie, you can find out about her on her website, sophiehagen.com, and she's on Twitter at Sophie Hagan and Instagram at Sophie Hagen, DK. Thank you for reading with us. with you