Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Yardsticks For Failure by Ivo Graham with Ivo Graham

Episode Date: August 7, 2025

This week's book guest isYardsticks For Failure by Ivo Graham.Sara and Cariad are joined by critically acclaimed comedian and friend Ivo Graham.In this episode they discuss Taskmaster, neurodiversity, friendship grief, the Edinburgh Festival and Potters Bar.Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss grief and death.Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Yardsticks For Failure by Ivo Graham is available to buy here.Tickets for Sara's tour show I Am A Strange Gloop are available to buy from sarapascoe.co.ukCariad’s children's book Where Did She Go? is available to buy now.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. And I'm Carriead Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we created the weirdos book club. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. Each week we're joined by amazing comedian guests and writer guests to discuss some wonderfully and crucially weird books, writing, reading and just generally being a weirdo. You don't even need to have read the books to join in. It will be a really interesting, wide-ranging conversation and maybe you'll want to read the book afterwards. We will share all the upcoming. books we're going to be discussing on our Instagram, Sarah and Carriads, Weirdo's Book Club. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Yard Sticks for Failure by Ivo Graham. What's it about? Beloved stand-up, Ivo Graham walks us through his thoughts on traitors, friendship, marathons, and much more. What qualifies it for the Weirdos Book Club? Well, there's a whole chapter on the missions Ivo undergoes in intervals of gigs. In this episode we discuss taskmaster,

Neurodiversity, Friendship Grief, Edinburgh Festival and Potter's Bar. And joining us this week is Ivo Graham. Ivo is a critically acclaimed stand-up comedian, now writing theatre shows and has appeared on all of your favourite panel shows. Ivo Graham. Having read your book, did I expect you to turn up on time?

No. Yeah, I'm surprised. I sort of did, actually. You did. You did. Thank you very much. Yes. I did.

I'm cutting it very fine for my speed awareness course later, It's quite a non-branded thing to be doing. Is this your first speed awareness course? It's my second speed awareness course, which I didn't think you got a second speed awareness course. My friend just did his third. Oh, okay. Let me tell you. You've got one more in the bag, I think.

Three hours on Zoom. And I am hoping to, obviously, he says on record, pay attention and learn and not make any more mistakes and respect the road. I only know about speed awareness courses from stand-up comedians, getting quite a good five or ten out of them. Oh, right. I think any situation which throws you in with sort of quite a random bunch of people is quite fun and quite quite a good thing to have happening occasionally in your life, really. It's for a stand-up comedian, otherwise it's all just, well, in the dressing room. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I was just thinking, is that like the point of Taskmaster? It's like, get those random people and then don't put them in the dressing room, just put them somewhere else so that they can have some chat about it. That's basically, it's a speed awareness course being filmed. Well, I don't wish to do too clumsy a segue, but that's very much the key to my, I'm going to call it friendship with Frankie Boyle, who was my teammate. And my, if that's what you mean, right, people are, to do that task. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Having to do things together, you wouldn't normally be

if a television producer wasn't saying, do this. Yeah, very much. So I mean, Frankie and I, I think 'd gig together maybe once or twice before, but I think it would have been quite a long time before we'd sort of voluntarily elected to sort of tie ourselves together. Yeah. Which was one of our tasks and try to sort of unlock a very complicated series of very stressful time. Even just thinking about it, very stressful. So, I should say, we're here talking about your book. Your book, congratulations. Yes. an actual book.

That's amazing. From Taskmaster itself. And you talk loads about Taskmaster in the book. Arguably too much. Well, I didn't say that. There's a chapter on it. I admired your confidence in that people would watch Taskmaster and then go, now I want to read a book about Taskmaster.

But when people say I admire your confidence. Often there is genuine admiration in there, but there's a note of I wouldn't do that to myself. No, not at all. Or at least like, you know. Because I genuinely do find it very interesting. But you have done Taskmaster It was a different beast Sarah's BC

She did Taskmaster BC You're Taskmaster AD So when I did it When I did it When I did it Only one series had been on It was five episodes So we did it in two days

No one was friends I don't hang out with Dave Gorman I never tied myself to El Murray It's a very very different beast Because as you sort of describe it It's a juggernaut that people really enjoy They don't go back BC To watch it when it was in black and white

I did. I think they do. I speed through. They go, oh my God, they all look so young and thin. No. I had never watched Taskmaster till this year. Just kids' life haven't done it. And then in January, I decided to start at the beginning. And I did. Yeah, it was a treat. But also, Carrie, your kids will be soon. Totsmaster fans. Yeah, that's true. Or at least of the age to be.

Yeah, nearly. We're not quite there, yeah. But yeah, very nearly. Yeah. Oh, I think they will absolutely love it. So here's the thing, and this is maybe how I should have phrased it better, because Taskmaster is so huge now, you'll have had an outpouring of people contacting you and coming to gigs because you were on the show. Yeah, I think so. So yeah, there's a big chapter all about Taskmaster, which I'm sure, like, because people are mega fans of the show,

and you are doing that lovely thing. And I think the reason you do it so well is because you were a fan of the show, and so you have the ability to go, I know what I want to know, and it's this. This is what the task is, this is what's happening, and you give that nice, I'm saying this is someone who is in the series of peep show, and was a massive peep show fan. And so when people ask me, I'm like, yeah, I know, right, let me tell you.

Crazy. When you and Tim turned up in the last series of peep show, it was real, like, projection stuff for me. But that's how it felt with you and Taskmaster. Like, you loved it, you admired it, you really enjoyed it. And then you got to do it. And so you enjoyed that it was so delightful. You're writing about it was so happy. You seemed like, oh, what a magical world I'm playing in.

I think there are a few people still getting a call for it who are fitting it in as part of a very busy professional But I think most people now are at least sort of professionally can enough to realize that this is a very big few hours of your televised career. The other thing I wanted to talk about, because it gets a big mention in one of the chapters, is Potter's Bar. Oh, yeah. Because I went to school in Potter's Bar. Oh, you must have trod the boards of the Williots many times.

The Williots. I played that gig. Sarah's played that gig. I really enjoyed. For Anglic Comedy. And I know Alex. He's lovely, yeah. So you're talking about a gig, a mad rush to a gig.

being very late, which is another big theme of the book. The Tesco's just up town. You were describing how you can get the Tesco. And I was like, oh my God. But do you know the other book that starts very simlin in Potters Bar? No way. Louis Mantel's beyond black. Yes.

It's sort of like with a big Tesco and Potter's Bar. She was also grabbing all the breakfast serials. I can't believe me, Mattel. I thought I must tell Ivo. Do you know you're linked to Hillary Mantel? You both feature Potter's Bar heavily in a chapter. No, perhaps this is, it's time for me to get up off my bottom and read Wolf Hall. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, I've got to do that. For shame. You're a very young man. You have all these things to look forward to. In no way. Thanks, Sarah. I didn't know that. And also when I was doing the audiobook, I had to pause to call Alex from Anglia

comedy to check, even though I've done the gig and I've been there and I've talked about it many times. I've never actually checked if it's Wiliots or Wiliots. No, do you know what? Can I tell you? Everyone says it differently. Williots? Yeah, yeah.

Wiliots. It's a bit of a mess of a word to look at. awful word. I don't know why it's called the Williott Centre. It's a small sort of community centre. They do comedy there. They do plays there and they do, they sometimes pull a projector down and watch a film. I watched Topsy Turvey there. Amazing. With like five other OAPs.

You've got this sort of, is it an adrenaline junkie thing? I think it is a bit. I think it is quite unhealthy and I think in the long term. Because most people, the idea of going on stage to talk to people is enough. Yes, that's enough adrenaline for them. But not for you, Ivo. No, I'm afraid. Give yourself extra adventure. Side quest.

You're after a side quest. Yeah, I think so. I was doing Will Briggs's Brighton Comedy Garden on Friday. And I arrived at 7 at Preston Park Station for a 730 start. I was on first. It's a little bit of a walk that one. Yeah, that's... I'm afraid to say that was good for me.

I was like, well done me. So the gig starts at 730. I'm on at 740, 745. And I bumped into Susie Ruffel at the station. and she lives just by Preston Park Station and we've been talking about me coming down and getting our girls together and like having a nice day in Brighton.

We haven't done it yet. And she was like, do you want to come to see the house now? And I was like, you know that I'm doing a Brighton Comedy Garden and you're so much more organised and responsible than me. So this is a horrible temptation for you. But it's obviously I want to come and see your house and your wife and your daughter and your mother-in-law very quickly. So got a quick house tour,

arrived at the gig for like 728. And I thought Will, he's very good. relaxed and has broadly indulged me before I thought he was looking a bit surprised and stressed. The email when you get booked for a Will Briggs gig does say you need to be on site because it's sort of like there's a back entrance, there's a car park,

a security, it says you have to be there an hour to an hour and 45 before you're set and you get food, there's drinks, I mean it's wonderful. It's nice and relaxing once you're back through there. And the line-up is amazing to you're hanging out with some of your best friends who haven't seen for a long time. There is so many good reasons

to get there really nice and early. But then I was seeing my friend in London that afternoon, and I'd seen Susie's, between 7 and 7.30, couldn't have had a tight, a lovely bit of Susie Ruffel all of my oldest friends in comedy. And so that was great too. And then, but Will was like, I was at the side of stage, like,

looking forward to watching, I didn't know it was going to be Sarah Keyworth or Dane Buckley, MC, both create emcees, both stood the side of stage. And Will was like, don't I take your bag off? And I was like, yeah, in a minute. And Will leans into the microphone and goes, please talk into the stage, your emcee,

and I say, Sarah, have a good one. So Will says, please welcome your MC. It looks to me like quick panic. He goes, Ivo Graham. So it's like bag down and straight on. Just pure adrenaline. Back down, straight on.

He must be looking at you like, are you taking your bag on? Have you got props? What is this? Which sometimes I do. I would think if you had your bag, I'd be like, maybe there's crisps in there. There's a sandwich. There's a thing.

Top jumps. Like he's got a thing. I guess he's going to take his bag on. But I got to say it was, it was really exciting. I tried to do the first like 30 seconds of the gig not mentioning that that that had been the case. but it was very hard to contain telling them that and then just riding that.

But I'm not saying that any of this is a good or sensible way to live. I think what I can't help feeling is you must be in such a flow state of creativity that you can go on and do your work in those circumstances. Whereas if that happened to me, I would go, I can't go on tell them I've got diarrhea, I need 10 minutes. I need to get my pad. I think you would be fine. No.

These gigs have thousands and thousands of people there. This is what I have anxiety dreams about. Yeah. What you've just described. I'm sorry. If you sort of know you can surf it, then there's maybe a part of you that doesn't check the email because there's a part of it's like,

I can do with it. I have this a lot with things I don't prepare for, that it's like, I do know. Like I've been in on Zoom meetings and they've said, well, obviously, you know, you wanted to pitch to us and I've been like, I thought we were just having a chat. And then I know, unfortunately,

I did a whole meeting like that, pitch something, got off the call, and my husband was like, did you write that down? I was like, no. No. So it's, I didn't. It's now a good time to bring up ADHD. I know.

I wasn't going to say it. I wasn't going to say it. You mentioned ADHD in your book. Yeah. But I wasn't sure from that mention if it was something. Amongst other great contributions to the discourse for me both. I think, Sarah, your ADHD bit is proved quite sort of definitive. I think it's the definitive ADHD bit, the pyramid scheme.

And I almost feel embarrassed like being part of the pyramid scheme. I think it's such a sort of cliche now. You feel like you're in a bandwagon. And I think it's obviously very important that neurodivergence in general is being explored and articulated. Absolutely. And across the board.

But I also think that there are arguably now too many comedians talking about it. And I think there are more important things to be talked about, certainly than ADHD. And I also think that disorganized people like myself just absolutely change. hits of adrenaline and being like, well, of course, with the ADHD, which I haven't even had diagnosed, but it's obvious. I guess that's what I was asking.

Yeah. You know, I couldn't, how could I not? I think it's a bit, I think it's proven quite enabling to be able to slap that badge on. Well, what's difficult is, it's like, the condition is very suitable for comedy. So I wonder if like at an accountant's conference, I doubt there's lots of people like, yeah, me too, me do, maybe, maybe there is. But it's like actors, performers, writers, comedians. it's like, yeah, that style of brain processing lend yourself to this job.

So, of course, you're going to get a lot of people talking about it. And then that's your world, that's your community, that feels like, oh, well, everyone's got it. You're like, no, I think this particular job that requires dopamine and adrenaline and not necessarily having to be somewhere exactly the right time or getting away with not being prepared, like that fits the job. So of course, that community seems like, oh, everyone's got it here. And it's like, well, yeah, this job is a very specific. It's also very, I mean, and I love the species of,

stand-up comedian, but it's really classic for someone, and I'm not saying this is you, I'm saying this is us as a group, to have the full, the full box, all the boxes ticks of criteria for a condition and go, but I'm not going to get checked out or. Oh, yeah. Because everyone else has got it. Not me. I'm cooler than that. I would never go and get an official diagnosis.

I'm not the crowd. Yeah. I did not wish to be rude or disrespectful to bringing it up out of, uh, out of friendship and concern. Yeah. Um, I do respect it. I absolutely must seek advice. The book is about, amongst other things, a couple of Edinburgh's

and how shows often are reactions to other shows. And I did a show in 2022, which was a stand-up show with some slightly sort of heavier themes. And I was really proud of it, but you know, particularly in Edinburgh, particularly when people are in hot rooms, hour after hour. and all the brilliant themes and months of previewing ultimately do blend into quite a lot of you know sort of funny and occasionally serious shows about ADHD

and actually what people remember is something that jolts them out of it and like the one show that really people sort of kept bringing up was one where like there was a massive tech issue and I had to sort of ride that out and I and so and when I did the Apollo I did that in 2016 I was so excited and grateful to get to do it.

I was still quite young, knew my set, proud of my set, but very nervous. And I walked out under the lights in the sort of smoke and started. And after 30 seconds, someone came on and said there's been a technical issue. We're going to have to go again. Can you wait while we fix it? And I'm like, I'm standing on stage at the Apollo. And I've got to say, I loved the following two minutes of basically just chatting while they fix a technical issue. And I was like, this is going to be fun and weird.

And then the 20 minutes also, I think, went okay and they can edit it and everything. But I actually felt the momentum in the adrenaline actually seep out as you're going back into material. And it's that thing of going, well, you want to have a bit of both. So I've decided the following year I would try and do a serious show, which was in the theatre section, which was completely unashamedly that. And then a show which was really like trying to be fun and silly and in the moment. And actually it was the latter show that didn't really work. well, the more audience sort of driven one. And so I sort of was like, okay, think about that.

And then this year I'm going to try and do a stand-up show, which is mostly a script and is really funny, but it's also about stuff that's really important to me and try and go back to having both again, which is the orange show, which is basically about trying to wear as much orange clothes as possible, but also about Swindon Town and Palestine and lots of other things that I can't solve. But I'm keen to have a go out. So you're very hard on yourself, I think. And you did call your book, Yard Sticks for A great shot from Matt Strong on the front. Oh yeah.

Amazing, amazing image. My baby keeps calling you daddy. I've been at home. I have a white man, brown-haired husband. And he was really upset when he came home because I said, I've been reading Ivo's book. And Albi, my youngest, keeps saying daddy. And I said to him, why is it daddy?

And he goes, big shoes, hair is. Wow. It all checks out. Yeah, no, fair enough. Any Portner Storm. Have you ever been in the playground where a child thinks, you're their mum, if you haven't experienced that, they run up to you, obviously,

I have short brown hair, there's a lot of women who look very similar to me, and they'll grab you or speak to you, and then they stare at you like, like, those, not my mum. And then you're like, oh, sorry, and then their faces are so upset until they find the other short, brown-haired curly person they were looking for. And you can see them look at you, like, you tricked me. I would lean down and go, you're mine now. Honoured to be mistaken for a very handsome Australian man.

I think as a creative person, and when you talk about like Edinburgh shows being a reaction to the next one, I don't think there is a right or wrong. I don't think comedy is a winnable sport. I think it doesn't matter how experienced you are, how successful someone is, they will have shit gigs and all of the original emotions about how horrible it feels not to be quite good enough are still there.

It's true. I think it's completely true. But I also think that one does have certain ones of one's shows which one knows are broadly better than others. and that you feel more proud of than others. I enjoyed that that you kind of had that take on yourself and your creativity. That a lot of the book is like, well, look, I've looked at what's happened. I've seen this situation.

I think next time I've got to come out stronger at the top. And I liked as someone who's, you know, written not stand-up shows, but Edinburgh shows, of like, I think you're sort of doing a nice peek behind the curtain for people of like the amount of work and thinking that goes on to standing on stage, making it look like you're just chatting thoughts off the top of your head. I really enjoyed that how much you're showing us. Again, a bit like with the Taskmaster chapter of like, it's a lot of thought that goes into these things.

But maybe not with very much compassion towards yourself. That's what I would say. I think that is a fair point. Well, obviously it is because, and I've thought about this. Obviously, think to the book and when people are reading it and the things they're saying. Like, you want it to be funny and you want it to be funny in the places you want to be funny. and, you know, hopefully emotional in the things that make you emotional. And then the bits, the other emotions, like stress, for example,

when I've written about running late for trains on social media, I get a bit of a hit out of people saying reading this like made me stress. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Particularly when you've got. Yeah, Katie Story, another brilliant person. Katie's story doesn't like it at all. Yeah. And I don't like the thought of that because, in some ways, because it means that I should feel stressed and all that.

But you're also validated by, I think just when I was writing the book, I tried to eat a curry in a very short amount of time before getting a train back from a gig. And it was my last great numbers on X, formerly Twitter. And it's like, well, this is its main appeal, this is how angry and stressed it's made people. But lots of people have shared it. So at least they must be enjoying the experience. It's a valid, the numbers are a validation of sorts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny.

It's funny, like, to live vicariously. But you hope. But then I don't want, as someone who wants to put broadly to be as enjoyable as possible, I don't like the thought that people are like, it's actually exhausting. No, but it's like watching John Keyes in, um, it's really entertaining. Clockwise. Have you never seen Clockwise? No.

No, I've heard of Clockwise. But 40Towers still works. No, no, clockwise is a man who's trying to get somewhere and everything goes wrong. Oh, great. It's literally Ivo's life. I can't believe you haven't seen it. Fantastic recommendation. Thing after thing goes wrong and watching it.

It was like a film in the 80s and one of those British comedy films, which is very stressful. I mean, my brother used to like love it. And then also be like, we'd stop talking for a bit and be like, he's not going to make it. And he's getting more and more stress and like cars break down. People stop him. Like it's so stressful to watch.

Yeah. It literally is the film that's made for you. Yeah, I can't wait. You've got to watch it. But in the book, as in the film, clockwise, I'm sure. feeling anyone else, any other human endeavor, vicariously is entertainment. That's what we do. So to get anyone to feel anything.

Yeah, feeling, feelings. It's like, we're a thriller. The best stand-up comedy is often someone having an angry rant about something that us listening aren't angry about. Not if it's something we should be angry about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That feels like a lecture. But when it's like, oh, I'm really annoyed with,

you know, like the Rod Gilbert handle routine. Yeah, of course. So there are just things that are so fantastic because you're watching someone in an emotional state you aren't and that's the thrill. And I think that's it. I wasn't late for anything while reading your book so I could just... So I could enjoy being so stressed for you. It was enjoyable. It was enjoyable.

But obviously there's times when you think, how can I help him? What does he need? Does he need a taxi company number? Well, I did a double in Norfolk, Fort Alex from Anglia comedy in the heart of his operation, East Anglia. And I love when you get booked for doubles where they're booked by the same person. So it's like if it's tight, it's like, that's on you. You've legitimised my adrenaline.

And my friend Chris, who lives in Wyndham in Norwich, he agreed to be my getaway driver from Norwich to Diss. And he took the whole sort of mission aspect to it really seriously. He said, I love being in your adrenaline for an evening. Yeah, yeah. It's really fun. Yeah, because that's not that they can dip in. That's the thing with a book or the film, you can dip in and swim in that river

and then be like, I'm getting out. Goodbye for now. Yeah. Yeah, you can have that with all sorts of. experience. My best friends Matt and Poppy brought their daughter to Glastonbury a couple of years ago. And I've been to take my daughter to maybe a latitude or something in a couple of years. But I think Glastonbury is too much. It's the sort of centre of the universe for fun and stress. And like, because there's just so much going on. And I loved like being, being, like, being in a parental role with them for a couple of hours in the afternoon and seeing their sweet daughter Eva.

And then being like, and now I'm afraid it's goodbye for me. I'm off to see the band I want to see without a tow truck behind me, pulling a little. And they were doing a great job. But similarly, Taskmaster, Testmaster is so fun and silly because it's, I think it's a very likable show. And it puts like, you know, it makes,

I think it's so good for, as you're giving people a more 3D experience of the comics involved and, you know, sort of platforming so many different kinds of, like, comics and people. So they always, it's the combination is part of the magic. Yeah,

so let's talk about who's on yours. May Martin. Yes. Thank you, Boyle. Kyle Smith Bino and Jenny Claire. And Jenny Claire. So that's a brilliant line up for people. A great line up.

Yeah. But they put you, they put us in stressful situations. And that's part of the fun as the viewer. So again, I'm, for me, I loved getting to do the show because it was a legitimisation of situations. I'd be trying to create for myself anyway. Yeah. You're trying to sort of create moments and memories through quite sort of mad. See, I, because I had only seen one series, there were situations.

So quite often what would happen with Alex and I in the house. So it would be something like How far can... This is a good example. How far can you get a pee down this red carpet? And the person who gets the furthest wins you've got 20 minutes.

And they would have like a tennis racket next to the envelope and I would get a tennis racket. I would hit the pee. It would land on the red carpet. And I'd go, yeah, I probably can't get it any further than that. And Alex would go, is that it? That's what you're going to do?

And I'd be like, yeah. Yeah, you ask me? He's like, that's it. You just want to... still got 19 and a half minutes if you want to do something else. I would like, why would we do anything else? It hit the red carpet. Yeah, I done it.

I thought I'd won the whole show because all I could imagine was, if it took someone else 20 minutes to hit a P with a tennis racket. You took the task, literally. And then I could not believe my eyes of what people did. So with the P, to put the P on the carpet, rolled the carpet up, put it in a taxi and drove as far as they could for 20 minutes, which is what Al-Mari did. And I was like, oh, because I was never stressed.

I didn't stress myself out at all. I just kept punching the air mentally thinking, I'm such a top of the class. I, like an idiot, couldn't wait to watch it back in the studio because I knew how many victories. Because I didn't get stressed at all. And then I couldn't believe the lateral thinking. I was like, oh, my brain is so root one.

There was one of them which was bursting balloons. that were filled with water on a washing line. And then they've shown all the others. And then I remember Greg saying, and no one would just run at the balloons ripping them open with their teeth, would they? And I'm thinking, oh, right. It's my video.

He's making fun of me. And I did, I did, how else would you do it if you're not allowed to use your hands? Lieutenant, I did what you said. Just never thought through. Would they? But that's also, it's not natural thinking. It's just, that's what's so.

Interesting about task. Maybe it's overconfidence. Maybe I'm over-compassionate to myself. That's what it is. You told me, would you feel comfortable telling on a podcast what you told me about Mott the Week when you were saying how you used to enjoy Mott the Week? What, my drinking? Is that what I was told you about?

Yeah, so that's all it was. Oh, yes, yes, yes. They give you wine in a mug. Oh, yeah. Well, you can not, you don't have to have wine in a mug. You don't have to, but I've never ever been able to say no to free wine in any circumstances. dance, let alone they're paying me to be here and I bought new trousers. I'm not very confident in my jokes about Boris Johnson.

So I would have a glass of wine and then I had to, I had to, I just had so much fun as well because mock the week, once I've got the first one out of the way, again, it's that thing about seeing people I just really liked to see Romish or Rob Beckett. Just incredibly funny, brilliant people. Really just and just feeling like we're in a little gang and it's so great to be here. So I just sit there and get really drunk. And it was when people watching it started to message me going, are you hammers? I thought, oh, I need to stop having, because they just refill your wine in every break.

No, I don't know. It's so dangerous. It's in the mug. People don't realize. Can I say I wasn't bringing it up in any sort of shaming way at all. I don't feel ashamed. No, no. Of course not.

Because you were great on it and did it many more times than I did. I found it very hard at the week. And I remember talking about it with you and Reese, who also got very good at it very quickly. He was amazing. It was a few years ago. and you said, well, you just used to get drunk. And I only thought of that a few minutes ago

because I suppose that's my that's my adrenaline of going on stage in Brighton, sort of finding out sort of 10 seconds or less that I was MC in the gig, is that knowledge that, and of course, like, you were still preparing and working and doing some, like, pretty funny and incisive political comedy

and also filling the bloody woman's seat and, like, represented quite importantly there. Period. But, like, fundamentally, in an environment that most people would have found incredibly stressful even to be on. You were able to be like, I'm actually feeling this is my way of actually enjoying this on my terms. I think that's it because it is very high pressure and stressful, but we also are supposed to be enjoying our lives. Because I can't imagine any life more exciting than ours.

Like this is what we wanted. And so we have to build little windows in it, right? And I think our windows for our own fun often do like yield. It sounds like self-congratory, but it is our job to create experiences and memories for, you know, people who might come and watch stuff. And I really want to, that's why I was so proud of my theatre show, is, like, very, very proud of the script because it was a reflection of how hard I'd worked on it. And very proud of the show, because it was a reflection of how hard other people had worked on it. But often at a gig, particularly a material gig where I don't really back what I'm going to say anyway, I'm delighted if something happens because then I know that something real is going to be happening, which is so much more likely to be remembered. by the people who are there and by me.

And I think the thing that I regret about some of the self-deprecation and maybe too much taskmaster because I just thought, well, that's why a lot of people will be getting the book and it's funny that Frankie said the book should be called that. I think it's a funny title. But I've seen it referred to a couple of times like a book about all his failures. And I'm like, well, it isn't that.

And maybe I should get that out of the subtext and into the text. The marathon running and the charity rating. And also, actually, especially the ending is so moving because of what you're talking about. And you start with, which is the loss of an amazing friend who sounded like an amazing person. I thought it was a book about having fun. I'm so different to you as a performer where absolutely God I love it if something magically happens in the room. But lots of my gigs, nothing does.

I'm too scared to engineer the chaos. So the joy that you create is so huge. And that is what your book is about. It's about how stuff goes wrong. But you have this way of alchemizing that into. Adventure. Also, I think especially with your friend Tom, who you talk about, who very, very sadly died, very sudden. Yeah, extreme, you know, that's death wrapped in trauma, that's in shock. And you've got these beautiful chapters about him, what he meant to you, the adventures you had

with him. Watching all the Philip Seymour Hoffman films. And I think, well, as someone who's talked about grief a lot, like what you're always trying to get people to realize of like, yes, it's the absolute worst point of everything. But there's this other door that opens with it, which is like, oh, I need to live. I need to live because life can be gone like that. People die. And we have such little control. And I think it's, yeah, I would say it's incorrect to say it's about failures. It's about trying to live in capital letters because you have, also, that is your general vibe anyway. But then it seems like Tom's death really kind of ignited another aspect of like there is a meaning to the way I live. Like it's not, it's not just like, oh, I'm bumbling along making chaos. It's like,

no, I want this because this is, this feels more real than just plodding along with life. That's, that's completely it carried. And, you know, I've listened to hours of you talking about this stuff to people. And, you know, barring obviously some very special and dearly missed grandparents. I've, you know, I'd not really had that, that sort of wallop. Like when it's, when it's, particularly when it's someone very young. When it's someone against the nature of things, I think Julia Samuel says, of like it's the wrong time. And obviously it's never a good time for someone to die.

But there are definitely situations when someone is very young. And we feel that as a community of like, that's not right. That shouldn't have happened. And we have a community around our friend. And I always want to be careful because I've talked about him a lot in the last few years. And I hope that every time I'm sort of doing justice to him, And I feel confident in the support of his wife and his parents in particular. But nonetheless, I think it is, there are too many caveats in the book,

but I think it is important one to say that I'm doing in public what a lot of people are doing in private and people who are much closer to him than me and whose lives have been destroyed by. Well, that's what I think, I don't think it needs a caveat because you talk about the yearly stagdo. So because of COVID, the stagdew was after the wedding. The stagdews were so lovely. What's really clear is that he's being mourned by lots of other people. You don't take any ownership for a relationship. You're one of the people missing him from your life.

And the Bruce Springsteen concert tickets that Tom had bought well in advance, you, his wife, his parents are all going there without him. And I also think friend grief is really hard. Because like you said, you're not in the inner circle, like the red velvet. rope, you're not there, but you are very near it and you know those people, you see that pain from immediate family, wife, partners. And I think that's a grief that often isn't talked about, but is very painful. And people do feel like, oh, do I have a right to have this because these people have their lives totally destroyed, but it's that thing of there's no hierarchy in grief.

It's just different grief. And I know from whenever I did episodes with people talking about lots of friends, people really appreciate it because they do feel like, oh, I don't quite know where I go with this because the other thing that happens a lot if you can say to someone on my friend died and they go alright because it could mean no like I lost like my soul or someone I sort of went to private school but I don't really remember and I wasn't friends of them anyway

it doesn't cover enough and I think what you do so brilliantly is describe him and make us feel like his presence was so there and I really enjoyed thinking I really enjoyed meeting him in the book it was really nice to be like oh he sounds so great you want him to talk to you about that

Philip Larkin poem I know And I love it also, I think that's what's interesting about friend grief, is that you can still learn about somebody after they've died because of things that other people talk about. And you see all the different facets of everybody. Being part of a community where you're creating events within that to come together and swap these stories and keep this person with you and how vital that feels.

I mean, one of the things I did and I do frequently get the accusation that I make almost every aspect of my life the most complicated version of it. it could be. And one was deciding when the book was already overdue that I wanted to include a page at the end, which was a sort of mosaic in the shape of a heart of an individual word contributed by basically as many people as possible who missed my friend Tom in a way that, because I thought that that would be just a nice way to sort of include as many people in just even providing one word of the story. And I said you can say, you know, tall or funny. And if lots of people say the same words, we'll include it lots of times. but also just if it's just a word that reminds you of a very specific story or sort of in-joke, it should be that too. And of course, these things coming in was so moving.

But I was like, what's so hard is that I'm not just getting a word submitted for the book. Someone, you know, I'm getting Tom's uncle who I've met once sending me this beautiful message about how difficult he found it to sum up with one word and with these couple of stories which made me feel so moved and like want to reply to them with stories in turn. that from like 100 people and be like, yes, and sort of often just doing thumbs up emojis

to the most moving messages being like I will hopefully do right by this after my already once delayed deadline. But it's almost too the story itself is sort of horribly full of these horrible ironies

and it's almost like too well designed. Like my friend Tom was a historian and he was a journalist and he just loved making memories. And he talked a lot about it, not in a pompous way, really. And he was very in the moment. He wasn't as sort of, like, as consumed by this sort of pointless nostalgia as I sometimes feel I am.

But he did talk a lot about, like, you know, moments and memories. And he had this amazing way of connecting people and stories. And that's literally what he did as a historian and what he did as a journalist and what he took such pride in. And so it has been, in some ways, very straightforward commemorating him because he had given us all of these lessons. already and he had so many interests that we have all of these different things to build annual traditions or sort of regular habits around

from listening to certain bands to watching certain movies to cycling to poetry to literally just taking lots of photos because he was always the one who was like let's get a photo and you'll appreciate this photo more than you know and now it's just it's pretty basic stuff

but it's changed all of us so much it does it's when a young person dies, it's huge. It's like it's, you know, rip in the timeline and because you are aging in that way as well and you get to all age at the same age and you get to constantly think they would have been this age, they would have been this age, they would have been this age, I'm doing this thing, they're not doing this thing. And that's why that friend grief is so different, you know, it's so different to what you would have for a parent or a child. Obviously,

you still have that age thing, but you are that age, you remember having those experiences with them. And I think what you've captured is, it's really beautiful. That's why I'm surprised that someone would say it's about life. It's like, it's about life. But also there's a difficulty of writing a book that other people sum up in a... Of course, of course. Because it's because it's never going to do justice. I love the passage where you're talking about... I think it's like putting on a sepia tinge, on Instagram, a filter on photographs at university.

So you're instantly nostalgic for what you were doing half an hour ago. Hipstimatic. Yeah, yeah. I think the book, I think that thing about just making moments and memories, that's... I think if I was redoing it, I would, and my friend Chris Scull and I want to do a book together about Glastonbury, which we adore and think is the best, you would complete shameless evangelist for it. We think it's the best thing in the world and it's been so important. And we wanted a book about that called More Photos, More Memories, which is what Chris shouts every time he takes a photo at Glastonbury, which is so basic. and obviously we very much need to put our phones away as well

and be in moments you have to get the ratios right but it's so important and that's if I am trying not to be self-deprecating I think that's something I'm getting increasingly confident that I know how to do and that I'm good at and certainly that I seek maybe too manically and I've spent far too long trying to get some flares into Finbury Park on Saturday

and the project failed but we let them off in the street afterwards and it still looked pretty cool because we got green, white and orange and it was the Irish flag. So just talk me through it? So what, you put them in your bags and security took them off you? It's too long a story. And actually it's arguably, they are a legal item.

Yes. They are a legal item. Yes. But nonetheless, I can't go into back for every bit of the story. But I think that's, and also to go to very possibly rather clumsily to go, you know, wholesome thing, that's, when you realize about parenthood so much, my daughters, like kids, memories are terrifying. How good there. And actually, maybe this undermines my point because they just remember so many basic things. And the amount of times I have to ask my daughter,

isn't he six for like the name of one of her friend's parents? I come cap in hand, I'm like, I hate myself for us and I'm saying, but what's, excuse me, does she know? Because my kids don't. I don't know. My daughter's pretty good at that. Oh my God. That's, you're lucky. And she remembers who gave her what presents and like, like, I don't know. I don't know. And I'm like, well, what, literally you went to nurse me with her. So her mom's still going. I don't know why would I know her name? Oh, sorry, Caird. Yeah, so you've done well.

Well, I'm very grateful for that. But I also know, like, we were walking home with our friend Ed and his son Alfie from Jurassic Minigolf New Maldon yesterday. And I don't know if anyone else was trapped in the various phases of quite a busy day, weather-wise, Sunday the 6th of July. But it was gorgeous sunshine and Jurassic Minigolf. And at one point I said, I wish I'd brought my sunglasses. And then we said, should we walk home?

Because it's like 15 minutes till the bus. And it's only a 20-minute walk. And then absolutely. shat down and but we had a portable speaker and we were singing pink pony club by chaperone in the rain and i said to ed obviously let's get home as quickly as possible because the moods are going to turn in a second but this is actually we will remember this we will this is so great that we're in this actually and i um and so i you know i think about that a lot with my daughter hopefully not at the expense of also keeping things ticking along with her you know um homework and her diet and her all the things that

you know, every day and important. But getting those tent poles of memory in as well. Yeah. And also showing this is how you can make the best of a situation. That's what you're doing. It's not just the memory is, oh, when another person would be like, oh, it's raining. It's awful. My dad celebrated it. And that's, oh, right, maybe what life throws at me I can sometimes turn around.

I think that's amazing, amazing parenting. My dad would melt Mars bars in milk if we got rained on the way home. So it's like they had this mammoth. massive treat. We made hot chocolate from the mars bars. If it rained. If we got rained or so like if we were drenched. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, that's so great. I'm just really, I'm like, well, melting a Mars bar. Have I just got one? Not, not, I have just a tin of hot chocolate. I've not melted a Mars bar. We wouldn't have had hot chocolate in the house. You just buy a mask bar and melt it. It's incredible.

It's incredible. It's a great book. And thank you so much for talking to us. Oh, thank you very much. Shout out for the amazing drawings. Yes, which we haven't even talked about your daughters. We haven't talked about how good the drawings are. She's amazing.

They're so funny. And they're genuinely, genuinely good. Yeah, genuinely good. I love my daughter's drawings. These are not. I'm afraid to say, I've bought, I'm wearing a T-shirt of my favorite one,

which isn't even in the book. Oh, come on. You're such a good dad. Like, I took her to pick this one up. It's two girls and one of them saying, you're six and I'm seven. And the other one's saying, I know.

I was just like, that's her whole life is kids telling each other their ages. That's so cute. There's such a, like, flatness to that. story. I know. I know. Brilliant. She's very, very talented. Yeah. I go. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for listening to the Weirdo's Book Club. Carriead's New Children's Book, where did she go? Is out now. Sarah is on tour. Tickets for her show. I am a strange bloop are on sale now from sarah pasco.com.com. You can find out all about the

upcoming books we're going to be discussing this series on our Instagram at Sarah and Carriads Weirdo's Book Club. And please do join us on our Patreon for loads of extra special weird and wonderful behind-the-scenes Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you.