Sara & Cariad's Weirdos Book Club - Yellowface by R.F. Kuang with Anna Leong Brophy & Emily Lloyd-Saini aka Egg

Episode Date: December 14, 2023

This week's book guest is Yellowface by R.F. Kuang.Sara and Cariad are joined by the brilliant comedy double act Anna Leong Brophy & Emily Lloyd-Saini aka Egg to discuss cultural appropriation, casting, ambition, panel shows and more! Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you!Trigger warning: In this episode we discuss racism and bias. Yellowface by R.F. Kuang is available to buy here or on Apple Books here.You can find Egg on Instagram: @eggcomedyTicket for the live show on Thu 25 Jan at Foyles, Tottenham Court Road are available to buy here.Sara’s debut novel Weirdo is published by Faber & Faber and is available to buy here.Cariad’s book You Are Not Alone is published by Bloomsbury and is available to buy here.Follow Sara & Cariad’s Weirdos Book Club on Instagram @saraandcariadsweirdosbookclub and Twitter @weirdosbookclub Recorded by Aniya Das and edited by Naomi Parnell for Plosive.Artwork by Welcome Studio.  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Sarah Pasco. Hello, I'm Carriad Lloyd. And we're weird about books. We love to read. We read too much. We talk too much. About the too much that we've read. Which is why we've created the Weirdos Book Club.

Join us. A space for the lonely outsider to feel accepted and appreciated. A place for the person who'd love to be in a real book club, but doesn't like wine or nibbles. Or being around other people. Is that you? Join us. Check out our Instagram at Sarah and Carriad's Weirdos Book Club for the upcoming books we're going to be discussing. You can read along and share your opinions.

Or just skulk around in your raincoat like the weirdo you are. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading with you. This week's book guest is Yellowface by R.F. Kwong. What's it about? It's about a failing writer who steals a friend's manuscript and publishes it as her own. What qualifies it for the weirdos book club? Well, this writer will stop at nothing to maintain her own success,

even if that means eventually joining sides with the alt-write. In this episode we discuss cultural appropriation, casting, authorship, loneliness, ambition, panel shows. And joining us this week are Emily Lloyd Sainey and Anna Long Brophy, aka Egg.

They are a brilliant comedy double act who have sold out Edinburgh and been seen on Channel 4's Harry Hills Club Night and heard regularly on Radio 4. They are also the host of the very brilliant, terribly famous podcast.

Trigger warning, in this episode we do discuss racism and bias. We are here with egg comedy. Hello. Oh, I know. Wait, no, you have to start again. Why? Just egg. Just egg.

Oh, I'm so sorry. It's because. I'm not going to start again. I want that much. Genreless. Genreless. No, but then you've got us going, no, you have to start again. No, I like it.

I do. I love a bit of drama. We should have an episode. You choose a name that's three letters long and is one of the most used words in the English language, it turns out. You can't Google us as egg and find us. So we had to add to comment. And also, there's so many. So many Instagram and Twitter accounts just about eggs.

Imagine if you just put egg into Google. Yeah. You'll not find us. And if you put egg comedy, you still won't find us. No. Was I then I find some funny videos with people frying eggs and dropping off and that kind of thing? We did our second live show was called Richard Pitchers because it was like a play on Dick Picks. If you put egg Richard Pitchers, you get Richard Madley holding an egg.

Advertising your Edinburgh show. Yeah, it's a nice man. We are here with egg. yeah but if you do want to find us anyway you have to tap a comedy and then our names

and then this podcast Anna and Emily but I think it's fine to start like this yeah fine this is the most people we've ever had yeah this is the most people we've ever had

this is very exciting so it's historic this week we are reading Yellowface which has been a huge hit it was a huge hit before it was even released yes

which is ironic because the book is about oh my gosh it's about the height come on it's about the height one of my friends has a nine-year-old

And she was saying she knew how successful this book was because her nine-year-old said to her, so should I read yellow face? Wow. Yeah, it's like then you know you're reaching. Yeah, it was everywhere and it's done extremely well. I don't think it's even out in paperback yet. No, it's absolutely not. And it's a real conversation starter.

Yes. And that's what you want is a great book that only do you want to recommend it to your friends. You want to talk to them about it. Yeah, I walked past a massive poster of this on the tube. holding this and I felt like a real prick. Real mainstream. Real mainstream. I hope you took a selfie.

No, I was too embarrassed. Hashtag walking. Hashtag prick. I saw a really upsetting review of this book that said it looks so cool when you're walking around holding this book because the cover's so cool. I completely disagree. I'm sorry. Well, you can.

I hate the cover. I hate the cover. I know. Also, you've left a review being like, yes, you can. walk around holding this book. But sometimes reviewers haven't read the things or seen the things. So if I was a reviewer and I've got an 800 words tomorrow

morning, I would probably start going well, the cover is yellow. I like the font. It's when you say the lighting was great, isn't it? A great use of space. Anna, why do you not like it? I really don't like it. Yeah, tell us. Talk about it. Well, I am an East Asian woman and I just feel like, I mean, first of all, I hate all three fonts.

Anna, that's quite an achievement Oh, look, I don't have any of those because I don't have, it was out before the best LMI one, we've all got slightly different versions. I don't like the tone of yellow. Yeah, it's a strong yellow. I don't like the eyes. So do you think being contrary, is it supposed to be agitating?

Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because there's so many. I felt like we're on news night. It's supposed to be. I'm trying to bring more of a news night thing. Jeremy Paxman vibes. It's such a sort of meta book that you're like, it discusses

you know choosing cover art in the book and I'm like oh did she get a choice in this is it a joke on a joke of like her choosing it of like that's a lot of that's so much unpacking yeah did you enjoy it just let's begin that on the level of enjoyment or is that too complicated question? Not just the cover the entire book

Anna didn't read it she liked the cover she didn't like it so she threw it away it's good to carry around yeah no I have to say I hated it let's go with it I'm so sorry you're not the only person I have found talking to people about it, either it's like, oh my God, it loved it or people are like, I do not know

what the fuss is about. But also, I have a very strong reaction. I found the themes so interesting, but the book itself, the first half, real page turner for me, and then I text you, didn't I, saying, it's making me feel so anxious, all the social media, and that's so anxious. And then as we get to the,

I guess, we would say the horror part of it without spoiling it, I was like, I really enjoyed it the first time I read it. I loved the page turn aspect of it of just being like, oh, God, what's can happen next what's going to happen next and then I messaged a person I know and they said um it was so ridiculous and then this happened this happened and I was like oh I had not like I'd been so caught up in it I hadn't questioned any logic right for me it ticks a lot of boxes of just what I've

over the last few years realized is the kind of art I don't like I for example I did not enjoy the film tar because I do not like great performance I don't like films about or books it turns out about unlikable central characters. She's very unlikable. Who have no compunction with being absolute pricks. And I also just interrupt to say Anna did call that film out

to Clayton Blanchett herself. Yeah. And then I took a photo with a hoverhand. You saw, you went up to Kate and you were like, got to say. No, she didn't go up to Kate. She stood on a podium in front of hundreds of people. I actually met Kate Blanchett before and said, oh hi, I'm hosting the event. I was

hosting an awards event. And I was like, She said, oh, great, oh great, yeah, yeah, is it going to be televised long? No, I was like, no. And then I was like, I'm going to mug you off in the beginning. Is that all right? She said, oh, yeah, that's fine. That's fine. Go for it.

And so I did. And I was like, Kate's cleared this. But she thought it was joking, but you were like, I mean it. I didn't like tar. This isn't comedy. Well, in a way, I sort of made a joke about like finally a woman getting to gas like other women. But it's sort of similar to this. It was like, if this book was about a man, I'd be like, no.

Absolutely not reading it. I also kind of get, we're meant to dislike the character. She makes herself very unlikable. Yeah, it's intentional. The author isn't making a mistake. Yeah. It's just sometimes hard to spend time with something that someone's done intentionally. But then you're like, oh, this is a brown woman writing as a white woman.

So you're like saying it's wrong to write for a brown woman. And these are the cultural differences we're going to erase and emit. And you've made her so, I think it would be so much more interesting if she were, you were like, a bit on her side sometimes. I think I was a bit on her side. I was at times. Did you feel like it was almost a caricature of a white woman then? Exactly.

Should white woman be offended, you're saying? We should have been offended. But do you think like, oh, it makes her racism not nuance? There were times when I was like, wow, what a dumb dumb. And then I thought, no, but an East Asian woman has written this. So it's like she's writing her so on the blunt edge of idiocy. there's no explanation for why when she's thinking of her next books, it is all East Asian. Well, she says that she's done the research for it.

She's not going to do anymore. I might as well. Yeah. I've done the research for that now. Might as well say. But she's like terrified to go to Chinatown. Yeah, that was all right. And because you've also created a central character that has no friends, no contact with the outside world.

Like, for me, very little is happening other than. then, and I'm the same as you, like, social media stresses me out, all of this stuff, like this kind of like building, but I was like, oh, this is actually my worst nightmare. But she doesn't, it's all just within the echo chamber. And I'm like, so she's just a nightmareish, like right at the, you know, the first half when everything's going, I think it's not a spoiler to say, quite well. Yeah, yeah, everyone's saying she's a genius writer and she's becoming the hot new thing. It's working.

It's working. Her sort of nefarious plan is working. I was like, wouldn't it be more interesting if she was wracked with guilt here? She's like, oh, I feel terrible. I'm doing so well and off the back of something bad that I did. And then when the shit starts to hit the fan, then we can be like, oh, but she's buckling in. She's not giving into it.

But she's just like, yep, I deserve this. I deserve, I wrote this, I deserve it. I kind of liked that about her, though, because it made it sort of, there was something, what do I mean like this is a weird like bit midleresque of just like this is my

like something like yeah like a monster what's the redemption for that what's going to happen what's going to happen do you know the first bit that I found really disappointing was not to do with any of the plot well it was to do the plot

is when she's grieving not grieving for her friend and I thought oh that's such an interesting observation when you at the risk of being on the wrong podcast Carriad you feel like You don't have a right to grieve for someone that you didn't really know.

And you're in complete denial. Well, we didn't even know each other. And I thought, oh, she is grieving. She's really upset. And she wasn't. And that keeps coming up and I'm like, do we believe you? Do we not? But going back to that friendship and that character dies very early on.

Yeah, that's not. But what you have is two people who are not friends, but are familiar. But the idea of success and jealousy, I mean, we all work in careers. Yeah. Yeah. I think she captures that. She does. I think there are people who are so embittered they don't have friends.

Because the difficulty of having friends is you do have to be happy for their success and hear about it. Yes. And watch it close up. And that's interesting because towards the end, there is a bit that I found the most interesting where she was being like, actually, were we friends? And it starts to unpack, I think, far too late in the game. I was like, so they did hang out all the time at college. So they did. That might have been notes from an editor of someone going, could you actually just at this point, we just care.

Yeah. Yeah, because I was like, oh, so they did, she was the first person you called, that Athena called when she was. I find it interesting. So you had a relationship. Her friend is very, very, very, very successful. And, you know, like, hailed as one of the great new writers. And then, you know, our character, June.

June, thank you. June gets the success that Athena had. And it's almost like she refused to understand her friend until she had it. And the moment I liked is when she was like, oh, the one person I want to call is Athena. because it's like I felt like oh when you get to those high echelons of success you can only be friends with successful people because they're the only ones that get it and what June was angry and jealous about which was true is that she wasn't as successful and so Athena was always kind of calling down to her like oh this happened to me I've got a

Netflix show and I'm doing this and and it burnt June up inside but then when June got there it was like oh I see it's so lowly up there so I thought it's quite honest about success. And it's interesting because I guess from Athena's point of view, she's trying to she doesn't have any successful close friends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She has jealousy.

Can we try and maintain this relationship? She has jealousy and also what she's experiencing is the pushback against, you know, there's lots of, lots of discussion about how the problems in publishing in terms of the editors, the advances and then what happens is if you have a writer who is a very, very

successful, the pushback against them. The fact that this is a book about a white writer who thinks that a Chinese American woman had it easier than her in an industry which is absolutely biased the other way. And that was another thing where I was like, this is my life. I don't need to read about it. I didn't understand that. I felt that rereading it because I was like, I'm going to admit it. I was like, oh, I did not pick up on all of this racism the first time round.

Like I was so involved in the plot that I forgave her a lot more, June. But then that's another lesson for us. Yeah, that's what I mean. Whereas you on first read were like, oh, bang, there it is, there it is. Whereas I was like, I definitely picked up on it. You didn't think her wife say things like that at funeral. Whatever. But I definitely, the second read was like, I actually made a note of myself because I was like, oh, page six, she's racist.

And I was like, genuinely, I was like, when I read that the first time, I don't think I picked it up on page six. Because she says like really racist on six. What does she say? Oh, I'm just brown-eyed, brown-eyed, brown-haired. hair June Hayward from Philly, no matter how hard I work or how well I write, I'll never be Athena Lou. And she's saying, you know, because she's American and she's exotic. She's a beautiful Yale educated, ambiguously queer woman of colour. Famously easy for famously. But I do wonder if it's, yeah, as a white reader, it was causing different questions for me.

But that's so interesting. And then having to be like, okay, this is not written by a white woman. and this is so what is being parodied here and what am I being asked to think about? Whereas the first time I was so into the plot just like, God, what's going to happen next? How is she going to get away with this? How is she going to go? I'm so stressed.

And the social media stuff. I was just like, oh God, God, God. And yeah, so perhaps your perspective is more like, oh, you got the lenses on. You got your lenses on. Yeah, it's very interesting because I would imagine that the author is writing, you know, she's writing for a majority white audience.

Well, when you see that back picture of her, you're like, oh my God. She's stunning. Is she not how she describes. Abe's Athena. Yes, basically, a martial scholar, Chinese English translator, a standing award-winning

Hugo Nebula Locus World Fantasy Award. She's won all the awards going. She's an emphil in Chinese studies from Cambridge, MSC, from Oxford. She's done the research guys, and she might as well stay at the same. But she must be very aware, them of how the jealousy she provokes.

The jealousy she provokes. Also, she does mention in the book that authors have to do a war novel. Yes. Yeah. Hmm. Nominated author of the Poppy War Trilogy. Yeah, I thought that. That's a little injure.

There's a lot. I mean, speaking to people in publishing, this is, this was like huge in publishing because they felt like it kind of revealed a lot about what goes on behind the scenes. Well, the thing about advances is, yeah. It's so fascinating from, I would assume most people who like reading. But you think, well, I've never thought of that. Yeah. That those runaway successes aren't word of mouth. that it's a real curated success. Being a runaway success novel,

what someone might think in their head of what that would be, and then you open it and go, oh, it's just like a thriller, page turn out. But crucially, they've bought it. Yes.

Either way, they've bought it. But I always feel sorry for people. I feel sorry when people slag off flea bag, because I feel like, you wouldn't slag it off unless it'd been such a runaway success. And then I feel like, there's still a person who made it.

She might see this thing. That's what I like about this book, is I feel like it does that with nuance, in that you have June, starting of like oh it's easy for Athena it's easy to write a book then she has a bestseller and she's like oh everybody wants a piece of me and then they all start turning on her and all the op-heads come out about like oh she's not this and she's not that good and then it sort of comes back around when people start criticizing Athena for not being supportive or not being

Chinese enough for supporting the wrong type of Chinese politics I've definitely experienced I think a lot of that where actually the way I see it the community is so used rightly so is so used to kind of fighting the terrible oppression and misjudgments and things like that. And we get really good at it. Hang on, that's not right. Hang on, that's not right. Very important, calling out. And then things start to get better.

And they're like, but I've got so good at pointing the finger. Yeah, yeah. We're going to point this finger now. And there are times, yeah, there are times I'm like, guys, we are literally jumping on each other and creating for Rouris, which actually make people go, well, I'm not going to touch this Asian stuff, because clearly we're going to make a mistake and people are going to get angry, or I'm not going to commission this because last time they did that, they said they weren't being Chinese enough.

I'm like, oh, it's just, it's the opposite of what you're saying, Sarah, which is when people criticize Fleabag, you're like, someone made that and they might see it. People just not thinking that at all and be like, fuck you guys. Yeah, yeah. Why are you doing this? And I do think the book kind of captured that element of like, especially the social media element when like they turn on June for culturally appropriating a story.

And the publishers make her change her name to Juniper's song, which is kind of culturally ambiguous. They take a picture of her in like golden light. So she looks a little bit more brown than white perhaps. And then she's attacked for that. But then they attack Athena for that. And then someone else writes a big piece of like, and also I thought she captured the idea.

that happens in social media of like, right, everyone should be fired. Everyone should, like, rather than like, oh, well, something's happened here that's interesting, let's talk about it, let's all have a think about what's happened. Yeah. But although she is cancelled, time and time again, she is always fine. Yeah, she is. That's so true. Even at the lowest of low, she tells us how fine she is.

Financially, like obviously emotionally, but, you know. And her work starts being picked up by the alt-right. This is so interesting. Okay. And it becomes, because she's being cancelled, a whole. new set of people are like, well, we protect white woman who's... But isn't that so true? I looked up on the way

here I was looking at, because I was remembering, what was that novel where the woman was accused of culturally appropriating, but it was already massive and it was American dirt? Yes. Yes, that was very much of a pleasure, yeah, yeah. And thinking I was about to find lots of sort of like, you know, three-star, problematic kind of,

and it's not, it's the opposite. Everything is five stars, because I think people came out, apparently it's really good, and it did make me want to read it, actually. like a real page turn. But the reviewers wrote their review, as in like the New Yorker and the Cardinal, wrote their reviews before anyone brought up the fact

that maybe it wasn't quite appropriate. Yeah. And then, yeah, people came up to bat for it going, doesn't matter, it's amazing. And that's it's, including like Oprah. Coming up to bat for it, isn't it? It's like, that she describes that really well, I think, that idea of like, everyone takes aside.

Everyone takes a team and either for it or against it. And then you lose that idea of like, which June does keep coming back to, of, well, if I didn't tell this story, it wouldn't have existed, but you're also really right, Emily, but she's fine. Like, she's never not going to be, and I do think part of that is her ruthless character. She is so, ruthless, but also really naive. Yeah, true. There are some decisions that she makes where I think, a young Emily might have been gone, okay, I'll make that publishing decision because this person wants to work with me not realizing, oh no, they are essentially Satan.

Have you watched Dream Scenario? Yeah. There is a Nick Cage film out at the moment that I watched while I was reading this. And some of the themes, I was like, you know, and it's just, I'm reading that right now, but just in terms, someone says to him in that film, if the French love you, you're doing something wrong. Oh, which is what they say in this book. That's what they say. And he's writing a book and he goes to a publisher and it's not what he dreamed. What's wrong with the French? Hey, guys, we're all thinking of it. I'm not talking with the French. The joke is that French people only like French literature,

and it's a very, like, closed, much snobby. So if they like you, you're not going to be commercially successful. Oh, I see. So it's not that you don't have worse. No, no, it's like if the French, because her sale is her international rights, isn't it? It's like, oh, you haven't told in France, but don't worry. Like, if they like you, you're not going to sell any well.

She's becoming a very niche art house writer, basically. I think that's what the joke is. I mean, it sounds like a compliment. This conversation, and I do think it's a, I think lots of things can be true at the same time, especially in this. Again, this is why you'll never get yourself in this situation. The idea of what writers can write, who actors can play,

which is a discussion, I don't have an answer. I wouldn't have an answer to. But it would be too reductive to say people can only write from experience, literal experience. You know, people who haven't had children can't write about parents. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or vice versa. You can't write a motherless child.

Can't write older than you are because you've never been that old. It's interesting because we're having that sort of discussion in the book. And then you keep having to remind yourself, because she's so convinced of her own lie, she did not write the book. There is that. Do you know what I mean? But she really, she did, she edits the book and answer to it. But it's an interesting thing because it takes a lot of way.

You're like, yeah, you're right. That's true. Oh, but actually it's still it's not. But they are arguing a lot of the time the arguments are this. white woman doesn't know shit about East Asian culture, she stole it from East Asian women. It's like, those two things can't be the same. Either it's authentically Asian and written from an Asian perspective.

The thing she gets criticized for, she's like, anyway, Athena wrote that bit about Armandeyes, not me. So you're like, oh God, like, well then is Athena like exploiting her own experience? Is there a message or a question that if she had properly credited the other author and been honest right from the beginning, then the book she wrote wouldn't. be problematic. But it wouldn't have been as successful, I think, is what she's, I feel like that's what the book's saying.

As personally successful for her. Yeah. And it wouldn't have been, it's not, because I also think it brings up an argument about art that we always want art to come from an individual and we want to then hail their individual as a genius. Yeah. And then we knock them down. Whereas actually the truth is art, books, comedy, everything takes a team of people.

Yeah. And actually what she's saying is, yeah, Athena wrote this. It wasn't, it wasn't finished because she died before it's finished. I made it better. an editor made it better, publishing made this a thing. And the reader does a huge amount of work. And the audience, that's why after I've had a bad gig, someone's like, that was shit, I go, well, 90% of that was you.

Yeah. We all subscribe to that. There's a bit actually in the book where it seems to be commenting on the group experience, which is, you know, she goes to teach a class. This is not really a spoiler, but she's like being a good person for once in her life. Being a good teacher. Yeah, being a good teacher and being, like, competent and connecting people. and then she kind of gets and knocked her confidence and just tears them all apart.

But between those two days, she sees all these young writers, these kind of high schoolers, all sort of crammed around a table, kind of collaborating. And that's what I love about working with you, Emily, and working with me. And she's so isolated. It really is making a point for how completely isolated she is in her, like, nice apartment. Because if you want to be the person that gets all the gold, then it can be only you that does the work. And that's what she's living, that problem.

She doesn't want to be there. She doesn't want to be alone, but she wants to be the only one that says, you did it, well done, who acts as you? And that's like, you can't have that. Either you work as a team and you understand, or I'm a small cog in this big machine, or you're like their fated writer that does is a genius.

Or you pay people to be friends with you. You've got the money. I've got a direct debit from Sarah, and it's worked really well. I would have really liked, not that I've got it in me, to write novel as structured to this at all, but I would have really liked if when Athena, that fateful night, if she'd found that Athena was working on a really similar project to her. Like if she had been inspired by her, and she was like, no, no, no, no, I'm finishing my, I'm going to make it amazing.

And then it came out that Athena had, because I wanted so much to like her. And I wanted so much to believe her. And I thought that would be a really interesting journey. She needs a foil. She can't work on a black page, which I do think is true for people when they come to write it. That's me. It's really good. It's really, that's why we're a double act.

But funny enough, she is a good editor. Lots of creative people, there is that battle of like, am I making a choice to have a nice life? Or do well at my chosen? I think it would have been more interesting if that was more of a struggle for her. She is so, but that's my own opinion because I, I guess that's my struggle where I'm like, I could try and pursue this to the height. but that seems like a really dangerous thing and I prefer to have like a nice life with friends

and so you make the life choice I make the life choice but she works with her friends whilst being extremely successful I just like to add that in Anne guys I'm just I'm stepping out but I don't show off on social see me on Netflix next week

because I know what you mean about the social media hashtag writing yeah I'm like oh I'm scared of that because of that thing where she's like and then I just doom scrolled for seven hours when she said she did she like I went on to get my likes so I felt better just like scrolling searching her name

if anyone had said anything I was like I find that really hard because that would be my worst nightmare and usually that it's now that the internet exists I think that's probably the first ever the first time it happens to you oh that's exciting if oh my god oh my god

I never open that box again because the internet is a thing you can put down and switch off it's not people shouting at you in the street but she really doesn't do that ever yeah and she goes she does right at the end doesn't she she's like I decided because she's been through so many storms she's like I turn my laptop off

turn my phone watch friends got drunk and it was like she knows what the internet she doesn't even need to see it she knows exactly what everyone's no dopamine in there she's like I'll wait till the far right like it and I'll tell the far right like it it's so horrible do you remember when John Ronson wrote

you are publicly shamed and it was about that woman who wrote a joke got on an aeroplane and then her phone was off for hours while the internet was getting so excited not only that there was a pile on but that she didn't know yet and they were visualising the excitement, the animal. Mob, the mentality.

This sort of the excitement they had that she was going to get up, a plane was going to land, she would be told she could use her phone and it was about to, her life was about to implode. It just makes me feel really sick. It does make you feel, there's no enjoyment in it. Also, she'd have to scroll back so much to see what's happened because. I'd throw my phone in the bin and be off.

No, just because you open it to people going like, oh my gosh, her life's about to implode. You're like, why, why, why, why, why, why. Send me about four hours. How long was the flight? I don't know why if I saw a shopperoy didn't that. Yeah. I'm part of the problem. This is a subplot in this novel you don't want to write about this person who's inspired by a successful person.

But this is also what I do like this book. I do enjoy it. I think it has its flaws. I think it has its flaws, but I like it because I think some of the topics it's calling and the way it deals with them, especially when you can relate to comedy and acting rather than if you just move writing into comedy. Like the competitive nature, social media pylon, we've all watched a pylon. We've all sat there and be like, oh, thank God, that's not me.

You said that. Or you see a comedian's name, you know trending. You're like, fuck, what did they do? And then you're scrolling back and being like, oh, I mean, I saw that. And I remember thinking that was fine, but now everyone's saying it's not, oh, shit, what do I need to think? Part of the reason why I didn't like it. Yes, because I genuinely, I don't do any of those things because I find it way too distressing. No, I'm just like, I can't.

And so having to read about it, I was like, oh, I don't read, don't get a chance to read that often. Now I'm reading about my worst nightmare. So it's that. Yeah, I can see that. Okay, question, this might not be, this might be too specific for non-spoiler, but not for this book group. The second book.

Change the first paragraph. Yeah, that was really annoying. That was really annoying. I agree with that. But that's arrogance, isn't it? And that's the arrogance of someone who does. think they're going to be safe.

Yeah. Or someone's so slightly mad, who thinks they shouldn't be questioned. Or like maybe she wanted to be caught. Because part of me I was like, this is, is it someone trying to end, like someone feels so guilty

they keep doing like a terrible murderer, like keep doing things that like, well obviously you wanted to be caught because why would you not change the first paragraph? Well, it's interesting that, again, sorry, I just do feel like it relates so much to my life. But, and to the community. But so often there will be things that like missteps

by, you know, white producers, for example, to pull an idea out of the air. I'll try and imagine it. Yeah, do I, try. Okay. And you're like, all you had to do, let's say, this was years ago, there was a play, and there was a protest by the East Asian people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. At the print room, I think, yeah. And they were like, they cast a play that was set in China with all Chinese characters, all white people. Yeah. Fun times. Yeah, not that long ago. that long ago. It wasn't unusual like, oh, okay.

Yeah, it was like 2016. Really annoyed I didn't get seen for that. In that play, when we, the community sort of spoke back, they were like, oh, well, first of all, they said that China is an imaginary place. No, no, guys don't understand. China's an imaginary place.

If you've never been there or done any research about it, it's in your imagination. And then they were like, we could have cast you, but we cast the best people for the job. Oh, wow. And I thought, I remember thinking, all you had to do just to cover your back

you're like, I'm always going to give it to Millicent and Richard but to cover your back I fucking Millicent and Richard get everything right make it right call them out

all you had to do is see some East Asian actors and then you could have said we did audition some East Asian actors unfortunately they weren't right for the role and the level of a standing East Asia

and it's just not imaginary enough You're looking at people from the place. You're acting like China is real. I don't know. It's very confronting. But just so often things that that happen where I'm like, just from a purely an optics point of view, just a bit.

Get your apology right. Get your apology ready. You know, in the book, she's offered a sensitivity read. Yes. Now, one of the people I know, an editor I know in publishing said that's a bit for her. She was like, why wouldn't you take? She was like any author would take.

cover your back. But if you take the sensitivity and then if you take the sensitivity and then someone says these things are inappropriate you have to change them and that's why people say no.

But it's smart. Because again it's like don't question it. Yeah, exactly. It's a level of like why would I be questioned at all and that I think is the most depressing thing as a minority.

You're like, we think about you guys all the time and you didn't even think about the possibility you could be called out and all we do is think about you

and it's very tired. There was a solution. Yeah. Try harder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you're casting practice. In comedy, quite often, they'll say, there aren't any. Or we are Smosh.

Yeah. They'll say something like, we did do our due diligence. I had been in a room that was all white and I said, I think it's a bit uncomfortable with it's all white. And they said, well, we did ask Sophie Dukkah, but she was busy. And I was like, yeah. Oh, that's the end of the conversation. I've been told a lot that because of the underrepresentation, the people who are good are too busy straight away. Yes, I've been told that.

And that's why you've been booked for this cake. Thank you. They're so busy. They're so busy. Because they're so good. You're like, but the two. Yeah.

The ethie the one, exactly. I've been taken off lineups before. This is quite a few years ago. Taken off stand-up lineups before because we already have an Asian female, but we'll get you in for the next one. And I was like,

but that's absolutely fine for you to text me that. We've got one female already and she is Asian. So there's no point having both of you. Devil bubble, mate. Yeah. I think that they think sometimes these promoters, who I would argue are slightly lower down the pecan order than white producers. They think the audience would go, what?

Haven't we already seen this one? Yeah. Well, actually, I did a gig with Sokodgla and everyone backstage kept congratulating me on her set. It hadn't been on yet. Just, I think, just kept mixing us up. Human beings are really flawed. Yeah. That's stupid, actually, aren't we?

Yeah. That's why checks and balances are useful. You have to do extra work and that's what's so horrible about the character of Juniper. She is not willing to do any extra work. And even when so many people call her on stuff, she's always defensive. And she even says, doesn't she, that she has her line of, like, well, you know, creatively, like, you know,

she's got it down. It's amazing that I'm celebrating, I'm telling these stories, otherwise they would remain untold. Like, I'm actually doing you a failure. Oh, it's not going to people say that male feminists are better because men all listen to them. It's like that argument. I thought it captured that really well.

Yeah. The desperate, bad choices people make when they feel backed into a corner. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I didn't go, oh, I get why you're making that because your backs against the wall. The whole refusing a sensitivity read, I feel like the author's witness someone do that. Oh, sure, should. And I feel... Yeah, it felt real, doesn't it?

I wondered whether this was her response to American Dirt. That's what people said. She does mention American Dairy is so similar to, you know, Jean and Juniper. Oh, interesting. It feels... Yeah. People assume... that it was absolutely about the forer.

And then when it becomes about the internet and all of the different ways that people can jump on and then dissect, it did seem like she was also discussing the complicatedness of it. Yes, the author says that the book is about the loneliness of publishing. And I was like, no, it's not.

It's absolutely not. That is an undercurrent and that is a theme within the book. But don't lie. But sometimes authors don't know what their book is about. That's true. I've done an Edinburgh show. We've come up with a blur

before we've written the show. Oh, 100%. Yeah. This is like, to me, quite far down the rabbit hole, but there are bits where June is describing Athena in a way that I'm like, she doesn't sound like an East Asian woman at all. Her hair is curly. She's got massive eyes with big, thick eyelashes.

What? And I'm like, this is... I've been using your serum, babe. Was that so that she didn't use racialised stereotypes, do you think? I don't know, but I was like, So this isn't East Asian women. I'm looking at her picture as well. Like East Asian women, we have no eyelashes.

She describes her in anime. She describes her in anime. Yeah. And do you think she's satirizing a white woman's version of Athena? Because June can't see Athena as a person. She only sees her fetish size, exotic. She's beautiful. And everybody wants to be with her because she's different.

And I'm June and I'm brown-haired and American-a-Borring. And I think later on, and I would have liked a little bit more of this of her going, Hang on, maybe we were good friends. Hang on, maybe Athena was trying to reach out to me. Oh my gosh, her hair was straight. She's seeing other East Asian women. And that's, you know, not to spoil her, but that she's confusing other East Asian women for the woman who haunts her life.

Other East Asian women that she has met. Yeah, exactly. And so you're like, what are you seeing? Yeah, yeah. Because then she later on goes like, oh, the old. right, are looking at me like, attractive, why? And you're like, so you are attractive now. You could admit that you are attractive.

But when Athena was doing better than you, you weren't attractive. I mean, she's so jealous of Athena. She's so obsessed. And that's what I think's funny is the call out on social media when they're like, you know, you're this parasite and you're obsessed and you're jealous. And she's like, oh my God, this is awful. And you're like, it's a very harsh way of saying what's true. You definitely are obsessed with your best friend.

You definitely were jealous. This has been driving you mad that you both started it. Yale had the potential and Athena just the race thing aside when other people are much more successful than us we do also assume they've had it a much easier that that success has

from the outside it looks like it just fell I don't anymore but I definitely think when you're younger I've certainly experienced especially when there's such to be a shift in the industry as an actor at this point I'm making from an actor's point of view but when there started being a shift in the industry

and all of the white actors, because there were so many, let's say it was six years ago, some bigger roles started to go to black men and brown men. So if you've always had the run of the place, it feels much, much, much more challenging. I was talking to you an actor who I knew, tall, attractive male, white. The agent is saying to them,

Oh, you didn't get it. They gave it to a black boy. I'm so sorry. This I think is terrible. Imagine if we, every time my whole career. I've been told by Mayor Lactus, it's just been quiet for me at the moment. And it's fine because all my parts are going to people of colour.

And it's fine. I'm like, you were losing parts quite a while ago, but to people have the same colour. It went to a white boy. Whereas obviously every call we got, we were like, yes, we went to a white girl, right? The East Asian part went to the white girl. Scarley Hansen, great.

In terms of what we see, to come back to your point is so right. So on panel shows, so very actively, they started to not cast homogeneously, all white, all male, which is what if you watch TV from 10, 15 years ago, that is what you'll see on a comedy

in a version of commerce show. They don't make them like they use. If you feel that the world has become harder for you because you are now part of the majority, which used to be just everyone, you don't look at Rob Beckett and say his sitting in. my seat, you look at, yeah, yeah.

That's right. The other person. Who's new? Yeah. The person, you go, thief. Yeah. Thief of my place. We've had a lifetime of learning of how it feels to be like, I'm probably not

going to get a space at the table. I'm probably not going to. Oh my God, that's great. I did get one. Okay. Whereas the other way around, you're like, this is my table. It all boils down to white as neutral. Yeah, yeah.

The baseline is white male, let's say. And so any spike off of that. neutral line on the graph is considered an anomaly, an error. So it is, you know, you see Athena, despite, despite June's sort of personification of her, as being desperately lonely and trying to reach, and having been through quite a, you know, her one other relationship that we see portrayed in the book is also exploitative. Yeah, completely exploitative. And June's exploitative. and she's just like, friend? Yeah.

Can I have a friend? But because she is such an other, and then that, you know, she gets taken down for that later on in the book. But it's like, unless you are the perfect minority. Yeah, the perfect immigrant, like that's right, isn't it? Exactly. The perfect immigrant which she is being.

And even then she was too perfect. But then, again, there's something about that. I like know your place, know your parameters. I feel like Rebecca, the author is slightly calling out, that white person who's like, no, no, I'm liberal, I'm for everyone. But you start scratching the surface. As long as I get the main, as long as I get seat table and I get my food before them, I want everyone to be here.

And so you start scratching June's character a little bit further and you think, you fell to that all right quicker than you've perhaps thought you were going to when you were at Yale. Because of, I think, the white fragility, which, you know, she goes, I'm going to do this good thing for the Asian kids. But as soon as there's one moment of discomfort, she's like, fuck you guys. Yeah, yeah. And it keeps up. As a community, as a community, every time, because it's like, how dare you?

How dare you? So the effort is actually, she's not used to making effort in the other direction. One of the reasons I think this book is worth read. It's just chat, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I feel like it's got, it does tackle so much stuff. Lots of responses. Even if you don't like it, there's a, you're not like, you're not bored by it.

No, no, no. But there might be people who are already having this conversation a lot. Yeah, true. Yes, yeah. Whereas it's not so fresh conversation. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for your listeners who are East Asian or like me mixed,

then you will probably, there is a point where you're like, I'm tired, really tired. Producers should read this. Yeah, for sure. But you know, you're right. There are lots of really interesting. We haven't even touched on it. I don't know if we even have time, but like theft, the idea of things.

What is, what's telling a story, what's stealing someone's story. But like there's that as well. So there's lots of different layers. I'm just, it was interesting to me reading it being like, oh, this crystallises a lot of things about what I want from my art now. And that is not a likable, relatable, central character and not to read about my own real life struggles with social media. I do think at the end, you know, I don't think this is a spoiler, but you can. judge. In the end, she chooses to be unhappy but infamous. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what makes me so sad about social media. It's why I can't go on it because it's very real. And there's a thing

at the moment, isn't it? I can't remember. I always say to my boyfriend, I read an article. I didn't. I saw something on Instagram. That's the new article. It's a new article. A short little change. A little article. But then when people feel like something is coming for them, they will go to the right wing. And I think that probably is addictive. Yeah, because it's a crowd of people going, validate them, you're right. Ignore them, I agree with you.

I feel like Rebecca is saying is that some people are in it to be heard, no matter what they say. And this is where it kind of crosses over with that dream scenario film as well. Some people are so desperate to be remembered. Yes, legacy. And it's not like, well, you don't have the talent to do that. to be remembered. You can be remembered. No matter what's scary.

You can be remembered. Yeah. At a cost. So on one day we'll throw your statue into the canal. But your statue was there. How else will we remember how racist we were? Well, as we come to the end, let us thank Egg. Thank you so much for talking to us about Yellowface.

It was so nice. Really interesting. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the weird. Doe's Book Club. Next week's book desk is no one or loads of people. It's a book gift guide.

We will be going to the shops and helping you decide what book to buy for your loved ones this festive season. It's a last minute gift that won't go off. Carriad's book You Are Not Alone is available in all of the shops and I'm doing special festive, personalised copies of my novel Weirdo if you go to Fox Lane Books. And you can buy tickets for our live show at Foyles on the 20th of January. So do that now and buy it as a Christmas present for someone you're like. love. Thank you for reading with us. We like reading.

See ya. I ended up on your note.