Sasquatch Chronicles - SC EP:1179 The Phenomenal Sasquatch With Matt Pruitt

Episode Date: August 10, 2025

The Phenomenal Sasquatch is a comprehensive exploration of one of the most intriguing mysteries of modern times. Is the sasquatch an undiscovered animal or a product of the imagination? Author Matt Pruitt takes a multidisciplinary approach to this question, drawing on insights from biology, psychology, anthropology, and other fields. Examining the fossil record, indigenous knowledge, historical records, eyewitness accounts, and physical evidence, Pruitt takes the reader on a journey into the heart of the sasquatch phenomenon. He explores the possibility that sasquatches are simply large, rare primates, and delves into the psychological factors that may be at play during people's encounters with these creatures. Alternatively, he considers the hypothesis that the sasquatch is merely a construct of the human mind that exists only in stories and art. In this thought-provoking work, Pruitt presents a balanced and rigorous analysis, providing readers with an in-depth look into the search for the natural origins of this cultural icon. Whether you are a skeptic or a believer, The Phenomenal Sasquatch will challenge your assumptions and deepen your understanding of this enduring mystery.   Check out his book here: The Phenomenal Sasquatch: Seeking the Natural Origins of a Cultural Icon

It looked like somebody was bent over and had their head in the window of the deer blind and it either heard me or smelt me and he pulled his head out of the tent and stood straight up and that shocked me. They don't make people that big. The way it moved, almost as if it was gliding across the beach. I've never seen anything moves like that in my life. They were screaming at each other in gibberish. It sounded like a language and they were chuntering away back and forwards, back and forwards, back and forward.

I know what a bear looks like and there is no way on this planet that what I saw were bears. What happened one, what are you reporting? Get somebody out here. What's going on now, sir? That's son of a bitch is about six. bitch is about six foot nine i don't know is he a bouncer yes i'm looking right here this is robo bobo from bigfoot and beyond and you are listening to saskatch chronicles welcome to the show everyone thanks for being here tonight got a great show plan for you we'll be chatting with matt pruitt and matt is the producer co-host of uh bigfoot and beyond

with uh cliff and bobo the guys do a great job definitely check him out uh and matt'll be talking about and matt'll be talking about his experiences and his new book, The Phenomenal Sasquatch, seeking the natural origins of a cultural icon. And I read Matt's book about a year ago. It's pretty well done. I definitely recommend it. I know it's up on Amazon and I'll include a link below. If you've had an encounter and you'd like to be on the show, shoot me an email. My email address is Wes at Sasquatch Chronicles.com. And if you get a chance, check out Sasquatch Chronicles.com,

you can become a member and get additional shows. Let's jump into it tonight. I want to welcome Matt to the show. Matt, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me. It's good to chat with you again. Yeah, I appreciate you being here.

And I know that you're on the podcast, Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff Brockman and James Bobo Faye, a very cool podcast. And I don't know if the audience understands or not, but there really would be no podcast without you being involved in the mix. You take yourself out of the equation. And there really is no podcast between Cliff and Bobo.

And they would be first to say it as well. You do so much behind the scenes. You're kind of the brains and bronze of the operation. Well, that's very kind of you. I appreciate it. I'm definitely not the brains behind it. Maybe the bronze just in terms of like the technology. side, but, you know, I'd known Cliff and Bobo for so many years, like even years before

Finding Bigfoot was a television show before they filmed the pilot episode. And I'd had a lot of experience in my youth, being in bands, and I was in a major label band in my early 20s. And so I worked with producers in the music world. And then just people from different aspects of the music business. And one of the things that I think I saw that was very frustrating with the band that I was in is that we were sort of left to handle things that we should never have been forced to handle. I say we, you know, I was the youngest member and I was the last to join this band. They had an existing record deal and an existing amount of success in a career. And, you know, I was brought in at the end of the touring cycle of their first record. But anyway, it was like, we had to worry

about so many things that were not creating. And so when Cliff and Bobowitz said, oh, we want to do a podcast and we know you have experience with audio, that's sort of the way I treated it. It was like, I want to make sure that all they ever have to do is talk and I'll do everything else. They shouldn't have to worry about any of the technical stuff or setting up online accounts or getting these things linked and published on time and negotiating like advertising deals

and on, you know, all the, as you know, with your position, just all the headaches that you have to go through outside of just having conversations that you want to have. So that's the way I treat, you know, being a producer. It's like I want to make sure that the only thing that they're ever expected to do or obligated to do is just have good conversations and that's it. And I'll do everything else. Yeah, I've teased Bobo and Cliff halfway serious and told them you should sit down and take Matt out of the equation and edit a show just to see what he does, just to see how a podcast should sound. and it'll help you gain insight on every aspect of doing this

if he sit down and actually edit a show. But I haven't convinced him yet. Well, yeah, I mean, the way that we record, too, again, because I want to make it easy on them, is, you know, my philosophy is like, hey, guys, just make a mess and I'll clean it up later. And so, you know, the editing is there as sort of a safety net, but also it's like, hey, if you feel like saying something again,

because you don't feel great about it. Or for example, like a lot of times people will mention something that they think is sensitive and go, oh, man, I really shouldn't have said that location or I accidentally used the witness's full name. It's like, oh, don't worry about that. You know, I'll edit that out or you can say it again. And so being loose in that way, I don't want to say it encourages people to make mistakes, but it sort of lets them know that like, hey, make all the mistakes you want. They're not going to get past the goalie.

And so it does create additional work, but it's totally worth it because then, everyone on the call feels really secure in not having to be like having red light fever and feel like they're broadcast live, you know what I mean? They're not walking that tightrope. Yeah, well, you guys do a great job. And for the audience, definitely check out Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo and Matt. Now you wrote a book, Matt, the phenomenal Sasquatch seeking the natural origins of a cultural icon. That's a long title, brother. With the subtitle, yeah, seeking natural origins of a cultural icon. Well, I wanted a bit of that juxtaposition, you know, the sort of yin-yang of like, yes, there is this sort of cultural phenomenon that happens, but I do think that it does have natural origins, i.e., there is a living creature or a living species of creature that is responsible for this cultural phenomenon or responsible for the Sasquatch mythos, so to speak.

So I thought the phenomenal Sasquatch, you know, as a title, would sort of speak to that, like, well, let's at least treat it as a phenomenon that exists. We can bicker about the interpretation of what the phenomenon is or what generates the phenomenon. But I wanted that subtitle to kind of speak to that yin-yang, you know, that sort of duality of the fundamental question, do they exist or not, that sort of thing. Yeah, I'm just giving you a crap about the title. I enjoyed the book. I read it. I think it would be a great book for someone who is just coming into the field. And actually, people have been in the field for a while, because it kind of gives you a very rounded, a lot of

information that's very rounded. Most books really focus just on one thing, like the footprints or encounters or, but you kind of grab everything from the topic and put it into this book. For the audience, can you kind of explain what made you write the book? And if they were to purchase it, what could they expect? Well, you know, I've been doing research pretty extensively for over 20 years now, and I'm a voracious reader. And so a lot of the early research I was doing beyond, like, trying to find local witnesses where I grew up or trying to go to places where people had described having

encounters or sightings. You know, I really wanted to understand the subject and the history of the subject. And so I would dive into so many books, and I have a pretty big library of just Sasquatch books at this point. point, let alone books from, you know, related subjects or other disciplines. And so over the years, people would always ask, like, what book should I read? And I'd have like, well, here's my top five, but you should probably read my top 10, et cetera. And some of those, you know, extend back to Ivan Sanderson's book, which was published in 1961, or Greens, the Apes Among Us, which was

published in the late 70s. And so there's a lot of things that have happened since those times, obviously. And so what I really was aiming to do was like, Well, there should be one single book that if someone only read one book, they could have a pretty thorough education in the entirety of the phenomenon, you know, the history, the history of the pursuit, the analyses of the best evidence, on and on and on. And then obviously I had a number of things that I thought were unique to me or perspectives that were unique to me that I wanted to express. And so that was the goal is to write as comprehensive a single book as I could so that if someone only ever read one, they'd have a pretty solid education. And then if they wanted to do deeper dives into certain aspects, you know, if you're hyper-interested in tracks and the inferred foot morphology of the

Sasquatch foot that we have derived from tracks, then definitely read Meldrum and definitely read Cranes. And if you want to get into other elements of, you know, behavior and behavioral ecology and physiology, definitely read Binernagle, you know, his two books, especially his second book, the discovery of the Sasquatch. that might be my favorite Sasquatch book of all time. So I reference all that stuff heavily

in my book and point people in those directions, but I just, I thought it would be an interesting challenge to try to put all of that into one work and, you know, include the perspectives that I think were unique to me and the things that I found along the way and also something that was pretty contemporaneous, you know,

written in, well, I wrote it over three years, but released it in 2023. And so, you know, it's a little bit more up to date than something from the mid-20th century. Yeah, and everyone knows about Cliff's Museum, the North American Bigfoot Center, outside of Boring Oregon or Gresham,

basically it's outside of Gresham, which is, I guess, where boring is that. But it's a cool museum. I actually liked going in there. I have Cliff walking around, and there was a lot of things that I thought I knew that I didn't. So when I walked out of there, got a lot of information,

invited me to hang out with his museum members. There's like a pizza place next door. And you were doing the presentation on this book. And I'm sure when it comes to Bigfoot, you and I would disagree in a lot of things. But I really enjoyed the presentation. I sat there. There's a lot of things where I was like, yeah, you know, I could get on board with that. And I had a skeptic on the show not too long ago. He had an encounter where something was storing rocks at him. There's more to it than this. But he never saw what it was. And I really wish I would have steered him towards your book because I asked him, you know, what would it take for you to believe that Sasquatch is real besides a body? And he kind of went down the list of things that were in your book.

I want to ask you, you know, 20 years ago, what made the Matt Pruitt from 20 years ago get into Bigfoot or even bother with it? Well, I grew up in Southern Apple. which is a beautiful, you know, wild place. There's a lot of wild areas in southern Appalachian. Most of it's temperate rainforest. There's about 135,000 square miles of the southern Appalachian mountains that constitute temperate rainforest. And so it's beautiful, it's rugged. It's teeming with wildlife. And I had an experience with a number of friends when I was 17 back in 1999. And similar to like what you just described with the skeptic, like we didn't see the things. But to make a long story short, you know, we heard. vocalizations, but initially it was like branches breaking, what sounded like branches breaking and being ripped from trees and then struck against trees, vegetation being thrashed, and then these sort of vocalizations. And we were just baffled. And we were fairly convinced it wasn't people that we were dealing with. We were climbing up the side of a mountain, essentially, on an old logging roadbed, trying to find this abandoned cabin that we'd heard about, which interestingly enough, people had

claimed to have strange experiences there. And, you know, we were teenagers and wanted to see what was up with those stories. And, you know, we knew that we weren't dealing with like bears or deer or normal animals, but it was just a strange experience. And, you know, we carried that around with us, but didn't really chalk it up to anything other than, well, people say that strange things happened here. And sure enough, we went there and they did. And I used to go back to this place often because the story would get around. People would talk about it. They'd ask and they'd want to go out there at night. And so I would take people there. And I'd even go back by myself at night, alone sometimes and it never happened again. So it just seriously was like this one-off weird thing.

And also, you know, when I was 17, I was playing music. I started playing in like bars and clubs when I was 15. And so by that age, like we were playing a lot in like the Atlanta, Athens area, all over Georgia and like parts of South Carolina and stuff. So it just had other priorities beyond even just like being in high school or whatever. But it was in the early 2000s that I stumbled across what first, I'm fairly certain, was the BFRO's website. I eventually did a lot more reading on the BFRO's website, but I think that was the first website I'd found. And so I don't even remember what I was searching or perusing the Internet for, but I

remember seeing that website and thinking like, oh, my God, this is so stupid. Can you believe people believe this crap? And I remember reading through, you know, there was a section. There was sort of like FAQs about what do they look like and what are their behaviors? you know, reading through all these descriptions and thinking, oh, my God, I can't believe people believe this. And I think, you know, in retrospect, everything I had seen about the subject, which wasn't very much because, you know, being from Nordd, it wasn't like I grew up in the Northwest where it's more in the social consciousness, but it would have been like Harry and the

Henderson's or occasionally seeing like something like in search of or whatever if there was a rerun of something like that on television. So I think in my mind, when I'm reading these reports, I'm picturing those cartoonish media depictions and thinking, I can't believe people believe that's real or something like that is real. Because, as you know, the media depictions don't really agree with what people actually describe other than that it's big and tall and hairy, you know. So anyway, so I was reading through that stuff and then started reading reports about intimidation behaviors during encounters and also hearing some sound clips on the BFR's website at that time of, you know, purporting. vocalizations. And so when you're reading about, you know, this stalking and usually on both sides, and they stop when you stop, and then they move when you move and branch breaking and wood knocking and then hearing these vocalizations, it was like, oh, my God, I've experienced this. That's exactly,

and there were five of us total in that first experience. And so I thought, that's pretty strange because I know that this, something out there generates these sounds and what people are describing is exactly what I experienced. And strangely, even though I didn't know much about the subject or hadn't even bought into the premise yet, it was like the idea that there exists some animal that behaves this way, that makes more sense as like an explanation for what I experienced

than that it would have been humans in the dark without flashlights navigating this, you know, thickly forested hillside in the dark, making these sounds. And, you know, we were kids. I think, you know, we might have had a couple of like Swiss army knives on us or something, but we had no equipment or like means of self-defense. But when all that was happening during that experience, we were yelling like, what are you doing

out of here? Who are you? We have guns. We're going to shoot you, you know, because we were just scared. We were trying to like intimidate whatever this was and it didn't respond. And so, again, we were convinced it wasn't people and it wasn't normal animals. And so all of a sudden, this Bigfoot thing as an explanation made no sense and also made more sense than any other alternative, you know? And so that's really what started it is, is that, is going well, whatever's going on, I've experienced this. So at least the experiences are real. And I guess the first big question was, for me, it was like, oh, if these things are real, they have to be, they have to live in this environment. They couldn't have just showed up. Like, they have to

have been here as long as humans have, or at least other animals. I've never heard anything about it. So I've really started looking for other local. witnesses and doing historical research. And through friends that were enrolled in college at the time there in the early 2000s, got access to like J-Store and some of these other like digital repositories of print media articles. And in short order, I found, I think somewhere close to like 40 articles from North Georgia alone that predated the year 1900 that described what we would call a Bigfoot or

Sasquatch where people describe seeing these things. And, you know, you've heard all the terms like, you know, wild men and woolly boogers and wood boogers on and on. But, you know, somewhere in the neighborhood of like seven to eight feet tall and very broad shoulders and no visible constriction at the neck and disproportionately longer arms than a human and covered in hair and fairly active at night. And often when they're encountered at night, having some kind of like reflective eyes. And so seeing how much of that historical information there was, that's, that was pretty unnerving of like, oh, wow, you know, this is not the product of the television or the radio or

some like modern media. Like people here in Southern Appalachianian, have claimed to see things like this for as far back as you can look in print media. And then finding other local witnesses, like meeting people face to face or people that were like friends of friends or family friends, you know, because I grew up in a pretty small community. So everyone kind of knows each other and finding reputable people who are like, yeah, I've seen one of those things. And let me take you to where I saw it. All that was so compelling and powerful.

And I just thought, I'll get to the bottom of this, you know. And here it is like 20 plus years later. And I'm still trying to get to the bottom of it. Yeah, I kind of think everyone kind of goes through that when they first get into this whole genre of, oh, I'm going to solve this. We'll have this solved in the next three or four years. And I went through that. And like you, here I am.

Still trying to figure things out. I remember thinking when I first got into pursuing research and reading books and getting online, which, you know, the online space in the early 2000s was pretty limited. You know, there were a few like Angel Fire and GeoCity's websites and a couple of forums and, like, you know, chat groups and things like that. But seeing everything that was already available, whether it was like John Green and Grover Krantz and Lauren Coleman on and on, I remember thinking like, oh my God, any day now, this is going to be proven to be real. Like, I'm too late to even make a contribution because there's so much, like, I wouldn't be surprised if I woke up tomorrow and they were proven real. Yeah. I think we're all guilty of that mentality when you first get into it.

Did you work on Finding Bigfoot? I did. So I ended up joining the BFR. I was doing research on my own for a number of years. And, you know, being young and being in the Southeast, because let's see, I guess I really started when I was about. 20. And so, you know, I would reach out to people online, but there weren't that many people in the southeast. There might have a handful in Florida. And as far as the rest of the east goes, there were people in like Ohio, Pennsylvania, maybe the Adirondacks of New York, but the bulk of

the researchers were in the Pacific Northwest, you know. So I just got like no replies from anyone, you know, when I'd reach out, just trying to get information or at least talk to another person who was a researcher. Because when I started going out in the field, it was basically I would convince my friends to go camping with me. They had no interest in the subject. They just thought it was, you know, all nonsense or whatever. And so I was just desperate to talk to one other person who had read the same things I'd read or who had experienced or who had pursued them in the field or whatever.

And the first person that ever responded to me was actually Mary Green. I don't know if you remember her. They called her the Tennessee Bigfoot Lady. And she was in Tennessee. I was still in Georgia, but I reached out to her and be like, do you know anyone in Georgia who's doing this? Because I'd love to meet up with somebody. And it was around that time, too, that I, did you ever see Doug Hichick's show Mysterious Encounters?

Oh, yeah. That was the prelude to Finding Bigfoot. Absolutely. That was like 2004-ish. And so when I saw that show, that had a huge impact on me, too, because, you know, I was going out and I was camping. I was mostly, like, walking around looking for tracks, you know. I'd never thought about this, like, behavioral approach of, like, trying to, mimic the sounds that Sasquatches make and elicit responses or maybe have them approach you,

try to interact with living individuals until I saw that show. And that was, you know, Moneymaker was a big part of that show. It was sort of centered around the BFRO. Bobo was in a number of episodes. And so once I saw that show, I started doing that in the field. And that got me really interested in the BFRO, even though, you know, I read their website, but they weren't really doing expeditions around the country at that point in time. But, you know, eventually I met some people in the Southeast who had been on BFRO expeditions and were becoming investigators. And I got invited to go to one in the Uwaris, in the Uri National Forest in 2007. And Matt Moneymaker led that expedition. So I met him there and a number of people and was asked to join the organization

then. And so I was with them for a number of years. And during that time, there were a few offers that had come through, and, you know, Matt would forward those on to the BFR investigators, kind of let us see behind the scenes of those conversations. And to Matt's credit, like there were some pretty cool, or at least ostensibly cool or big offers that came in that he just had the right kind of vision to go, you know what, this isn't going to work. I'm not doing this. Whereas I think, you know, a lot of people would just think, oh, I have to seize this opportunity because it might never happen again. I'll just say yes to whatever and let's just make this happen. we'll worry about the problems later.

But Matt was pretty savvy. He was like, no, I know this seems good, but here's all the potential problems with it. So the idea of a TV show had been in the works for a couple of years. In fact, there were some things that he had filmed that I was a part of. One was in Central Georgia in 2009. And then we filmed some stuff on Harstein Island there in the Puget Sound in 2010. And then finding Bigfoot eventually happened at least as like a pilot

with the option of like, well, if the pilot tests, well, then maybe they'll do a small run. So after the pilot did well, they had, you know, greenlit, whatever it was, like six episodes. And Matt had put it out to the investigators like, oh, hey, does anyone have anything for certain locations or at least certain regions that you think would be worth looking into that would look good on camera, that would be fun for us to travel to? And so I put together this like info packet for Northeast Georgia with a number of witnesses

and bits of evidence and things like that. And it was one of the first to get greenlit, essentially. And that episode became the premiere episode of the whole series. That was like episode one of Finding Bigfoot. And I was super excited that they were going to make it. But then through Matt, Cliff, and Bobo, and I actually knew Renee for a couple of years before the show, too. So I knew all four of them.

But mostly Matt and Cliff and Bobo had told ping pong productions, the production company, they were like, hey, you should just hire this guy because he knows all these areas and he knows the locals and he knows his way around and he knows the witnesses. And so you should just hire him as part of the production crew rather than just, you know, taking advice or guidance or whatever. And they actually did, which was crazy to me because I didn't have any experience in that side of production. So I worked as the like field coordinator and fixer for that episode. And I did the same thing for an Oklahoma episode in season three, too.

Give us some dirt from finding Bigfoot. Something behind the scenes that you thought was funny. Someone might recall from a certain episode. Oh, yeah. I mean, well, seeing the juxtaposition in time between those two episodes that I worked on was so crazy. Because, again, I don't, you know, I knew Moneymaker since 2007. I met Bobo in 2009. I met Cliff in 2010.

I actually met Renee in 2008. But obviously when we're filming that Georgia episode, there's no show yet. because it hasn't aired. You know, they're filming the first six episodes, and Georgia was actually the second one that was filmed. The first one was North Carolina outside of the pilot, which was filmed in Alaska. But so we're filming that episode,

and there's no solidified structure yet. They're just trying a lot of things and filming a lot of things, and there's a huge degree of anonymity, right, because the show doesn't exist yet. And so we had a tumultuous time, I felt like trying to figure out how this was going to work. And I can tell you from that first season, they would shoot from, like, we'd be, you know, meet at 6 a.m., wheels up at 7 a.m. to go out. And then we would shoot until like three or four in the morning and then do that all over again. And it was that way every day for a week straight. So myself and the advanced producer were there for the first seven days, prepping everything, you know, getting permits, getting rental cars, you know, everything that was needed to make the shoot work lining up schedules. And then that first week of filming was just absolute, you know,

chaotic, full bore, no stops, no breaks. And because it was my first experience shooting any television, like, I didn't know that any of that was strange. I just thought that's how they did it. So, like, one of the stories that I think is so funny is, you know, there was this bit of footage that was collected by a sheriff's deputy in Lumpkin County, Georgia on his dash cam. I actually grew up with the guy.

I knew him, and that's how I found out about the footage. Like, he called me right after it happened before he'd even gotten back to the station to review to see if the. the dash cam even caught it. So that was included there. And they wanted to do this like comparison in the same location. And so we went and rented a car that was roughly the same size as the police cruiser and, you know, had a dash cam mounted in roughly the same position.

And so, of course, the stand-in was Bobo, as became a big part of his career to be the Sasquatch stand-in. And the officer was going like 55 miles an hour or something like that. So we had to get that car up to speed. at 55 miles an hour at night and have Bobo run in front of it, you know, in the dark on this rural North Georgia road. And we did, I forget how many takes of that we did. But, you know, I was down the road of ways with a walkie-talkie and another production assistant was up the road away. So we were just calling back and forth like, okay, you're clear. Or if we'd see

headlights coming like, oh, hey, stop, there's a car coming. And I remember after that, it didn't even occur to me that that was crazy, you know. And then someone else who was a production an assistant, not from the crew. They were like, man, you don't understand. Like, no one does this. That's, that is stunt work. Like, you have to have all sorts of, like, permits and certifications and all this to do that. Like, you would get paid a certain amount. They basically, because it's a reality show, they're not subject to all the same things, or it wasn't a union shoot or whatever, but they were telling me, like, you have no idea how dangerous this is and how most companies, like, would not do this. But Bobo loved it and it turned out well, you know. But again,

And we're just doing all that stuff, and it's in this kind of silence and seclusion. And then one year later, so February 2012, we're going to shoot this Oklahoma episode. By now, the first season's aired, and it was a huge success. And so going from the experience of, like, taking those guys around my hometown and shooting there for a week and no one knew who anyone was, but me, now we're in Oklahoma. And like the plane lands. And as soon as Bobo steps off the plane, everyone in the airport's like, oh, my God, Bobo, what are you doing here?

You know, freaking out. Anywhere we went, they were recognized, but most especially Bobo, to the point that, like, we were downtown, or actually in Bricktown on the day that we wrapped to have this little, like rap party and grab dinner. And Bricktown's where the arena is where, like, the Oklahoma City Thunder plays. So it was pretty packed. And I parked in this parking garage and we're going to walk in. And as soon as we step out and Bobo steps out from this parking garage, a car slams on

its brakes and stops in the street. like in the busy street and rolls down the window. I was like, oh my God, Bobo, what are you doing here? So that was pretty crazy to see in a year's time for like my Bigfoot nerd friends to all of a sudden be like very recognizable sort of, you know, household names. That was pretty crazy. It's so funny that you bring up that episode. Because I remember that episode.

I remember thinking, you know, those cop cars have like a big V8 and them probably 300 plus horse and you're going to gun it towards Bobo and try and get this car. It's not going to take much for that car to get up to 55 miles an hour. Try and get across the street, you giant, like your life depends on it, because it does. Oh, he did it too. And that whole episode is on YouTube in its entirety. That's one of the ones the Animal Planet has up. So you don't have to have like a streaming service to watch that premiere episode.

So if you want to see Bobo running fast across the road in front of a moving car, multiple times go check it out. Yeah, I need to go back and watch it. It was a good choice by the production crew. I would imagine you to want Moneymaker out there crossing the road and having the audience rooting for the cop car. Lord forgive me for that. I'm sorry, Matt, if you're listening.

It's just joke. Just joking around. You know, I love your guys' podcast. You guys got the Robo Bobo when he doesn't show up, and I've even thrown him in my intro. it's the greatest. How long have you guys been doing that podcast? We launched our first episode on Cinco de Mayo of 2019.

So it's been a little over six years now. Gosh, has it been that long? I think that all the time when people are like, you know, you've been doing this for X amount of years? And I'm like, has it been that long? What have you learned over all of those years of doing the podcast, whether it be, you know, something to do with what they call, you know, making the sausage that no one wants to hear about with

regard to the podcast or, you know, from an eyewitness. Have you grown since doing the podcast? Oh, I think so. I mean, a lot of it, you know, having been doing so much research for so long and then knowing Cliff and Bobo so long, those are the kind of conversations we'd be having anyway. I mean, Cliff and I would speak on a weekly basis for years. I mean, the whole time he was making Finding Bigfoot, we talk weekly, even when he was out there on the road. road. We're always discussing the subject. And we, you know, we spent a lot of time together. And then, you know, Bobo is like the funniest person. No one makes me laugh harder than Bobo. And so, like, all those moments in the podcast are like, that's exactly the sort of thing we'd be doing otherwise.

One of the things that I learned is that for years, I was pretty uptight about the subject in public. Because whenever I started doing interviews in 2007 is when the first kind of requests came. and I started saying yes to them. And I'd already been doing research for like five years at that point, which was still probably too green to be talking about it. But I would just get so,

I guess, like serious about, okay, well, I'm being asked to speak about this publicly. A lot of people are going to hear this that don't know anything about the subject. Now I'm sort of like a microcosm of the whole subject for these people. And I can't misstep or make a mistake or just somehow embarrass

the work of the grades who've come before me or, you know, all of the witnesses who've trusted me with their stories on and on. And so I always, I think probably came across as like it's just a total square. In fact, even my wife who, you know, she, she attended a BFR expedition that I led years ago back in 2011. And she'd even said like, yeah, after I met you on these expeditions, I just thought you had like no sense of humor whatsoever. And I'm like, oh, that's just not the case. I was just so hyper-focused on representing, you know, the seriousness, the validity of there is something to the Sasquatch phenomenon, you know. With Cliff and Bobo, like, you get so much of their personalities in finding Bigfoot. And you realize, like, yes, people are tuning in to see the analyses of

evidence and they're tuning in to see the investigation. But they're also tuning in because they've gotten to know these people and their personalities and they're celebrating that. And so to me, it opened it up like if you listen to a lot of big foot beyond like we laugh so much we talk about a lot of ridiculous things like i think the the ethos is like we take the subject seriously ourselves seriously and bobo always has me cackling you know with his stories and things like that and so that's one of the things i learned is like hey man it's okay to giggle and chuckle and you know ease up a little bit so in my 20s or early 30s i might not have been willing to do that you know but now in my 40s, I'm like, I don't care.

Yeah, you got to have fun with it. And I'm always amazed at people's perceptions of, like podcasters, for example, I know that I would hear a lot. Cliff is real smug. He's real arrogant. He's very hard to get along with. And when I met Cliff and actually became pretty good friends with them, he's actually none of those things.

Cliff is freaking hilarious. He's got kind of got that dry, British humor, which is right up my alley. I mean, I think he's one of the funniest guys on the planet. Or like Bobo, for example, people would say, oh, he's not real smart. He's not real bright. And I could tell you they're 100% wrong. When I did the trivia game, the COVID trivia game, I remember thinking like, oh, Merkel's going to destroy Bobo. And I wasn't joking. I've told the story before, but I wasn't joking. I had about 20 questions. Very, very, very, few people on the planet could answer.

And Bobo's just sitting there rambling off answers. The correct answers, by the way. And I remember looking over at Merkel thinking, you're in big trouble, my friend. I mean, we've walked into the lion's den here. Bobo is probably one of the most brilliant people I know. But I'm always amazed at the perception the listener has of the podcaster. Oh, yeah. People, they see, I think, just some surface-level characteristics.

and they build a caricature, like a whole model of this person based on that one characteristic. And it's very one-dimensional and very shallow. And it's unfortunate. Because, yeah, with Bobo, you know, I'm sure finding Bigfoot, you know, they highlighted certain moments.

Like if he, you know, slip and fall off the porch in Florida or something like that. And then that gets, you know, sort of like memed or semi-viral or whatever, you know, and people think, oh, that's who that guy is. He's the guy who fell off the porch. It's like, no, you know, we all have those moments. in our regular lives for sure.

It's just there's not cameras around, you know, thankfully. But with Bobo, like he is so intelligent. And I'll tell you, man, he's one of the fastest, like all those one-liners that he zips out on the podcast. Like,

I don't tighten those for time. Like, he is super fast. And he gets so many good. Sometimes we lose some because he says it so quickly and then the guest is still talking and they don't even catch it. And so no one,

responds to it because the guest is still going. And so I'm like, oh, man, we missed a good Zinger there. But he's like so fast, so clever, so witty, so funny. But yeah, very smart. You know, he's a political science major. His sort of like global politics knowledge is very vast and deep and global history and a lot of war history and things like that. And so it's just that, you know, we don't do a podcast about those things. So it doesn't always shine through because we're talking about Sasquatch stuff or funny stuff from personal lives. And, you know, Bobo always has some crazy story to tell or some wild thing happening. And Cliff and I love hearing about it because it makes us laugh.

And the audience loves hearing about it because they're always asking like, what's up with this? What's up with that? And so, you know, it's unfortunate that people don't get to see that side of him. But, you know, whenever we do go off topic, and I'm sure you get this too, is that the second you go off topic of something you're really interested in that's tangentially related or maybe even, unrelated, then you get a bunch of the, like, oh, stay in your lane, no one cared. I didn't come here for that. And I get that. Like, if you came to hear a Sasquatch podcast, then most of the talk is about a totally unrelated subject. Yeah, I understand the need to say, hey, this isn't what I came here for. But it's also unfortunate that, like, well, there is this other

side to Bobo, like there's another side to all of us. Like, we're not just one-dimensional Sasquatch obsessives. You know, we have other interests and other things we love to talk about. It's just that's not what people are here for. Yeah, it is frustrating because I know for me, it's like, man, there's so many other topics I would love to tackle, but do I want to ask for forgiveness or, you know, but you're right. There's more to podcasters than the subject that they're doing. One of the things I want to ask you, kind of going back to Bigfoot for a moment, you know,

a lot of times you'll talk to eyewitnesses and they'll say, what I see. what I saw was really nothing more than a half man, half gorilla. It was really more animal than anything else. And then sometimes you talk to people and they're like, what I saw was very human like. You know, I had John on episode 1173 and he was talking about escaping this hurricane. He lives in North Carolina. And him and his wife ended up taking four wheelers out and they ran into these two creatures. and here I'll play a clip for you.

It's like they came towards us and she was going to try to cut up the bank. Well, she tried to cut up the bank and she would make about two or three steps and she would just slide back down. And she would get the juvenile by the arm and try again. And they would, of course, again, then slide back down. Well, she got a little bit closer to us. by that time I'm going to guess it's probably about 30 feet. Well, she tried to go up, and that's whenever the juvenile seen my wife and I standing there.

Well, she got almost to the top and slid back down again, and I didn't see his mouth move or the juvenile's mouth move or anything, but it's kind of like it may be communicated with her somehow. and she looked right at us, and we probably had a glare for probably, I'm going to guess, eight to ten seconds, and she grabs him by the arm and takes off running at the road and then goes back down a bank,

just at the road just a little ways. I decided I told her, I said, look, I said, let's just go back. I mean, we were both scared us, but I didn't want to risk, you know, trying to walk the rest of the way up the road to maybe run into something bigger or maybe another one. The female was probably, I'm around 6 foot 3 inches. I'm going to guess she was probably about my height, maybe a little bit taller.

Weight would probably be around 200 to 225 pounds. And as far as like facial features, it was more human facial features than than it would be any type of like eight or anything like that. And the juvenile, like I said, was probably maybe four feet and would weigh around 100 pounds, maybe a little bit more. And what kind of got my attention most is I couldn't see like her front area from her neck down didn't seem to have like a whole lot of hair on it. And then you got from the waist down,

and maybe a little bit more hair. And I remember her hair line was just like a straight line across, just right above her forehead. But by that time, like I said earlier, that was during the absolute worst part of the rain and the wind and all that. They were both so wet. It was just, I mean, there wasn't no hair sticking up or nothing. It was just, they were soaked.

And whenever she turned around, it was like the, and started taking off up the road, it was like on her the thickest part of the hair started at her neck and went down to about her tailbone. It was probably maybe five to six inches wide. It was just like a strip of hair down the better back. And the face was, I've looked at probably a thousand pictures,

and I'll email you a picture of the closest one that I found. It was just more human. I mean, it wasn't like she had a real wide, I mean, her nose was wide, but not the classic, you know, what you see pictures of. And it was like her mouth was just more like human. And the only, like the body parts, I did notice now that we've had time to think about, her arms were a little bit longer than a human would be. But, you know, sometimes you see videos and pictures.

They're kind of hunched over whenever they walk. These two, they were standing straight up. And I mean, it was like a real hairy human was like what it was. And he had actually sent me artist renditions of what he saw him and his wife. I think Sybilla Irwin actually drew the pictures. But they look very human-like. And when you talk to John off the air, he'll be. first to say, hey, man, you cut the hair off this saying, and it could pass for human. Why do you think

there is such a difference between what people are seeing? Do you think that there is other types of these creatures? I think a lot of it has to do with the interpreter, you know, the human observer and how they're interpreting it. And that interpretation is going to be based on a whole range of factors, like how much exposure have they had to other animals or manlike animals like great apes, etc., where they have, let's say, a decision tree that's, you know, really bushy of many options to compare something to. Because if you're talking at a basic level, well, then Sasquatches are going to be more like us than anything else in the natural world, especially in North America. You know, and it'd be different if we are talking about guerrillas, chimps, arraangs, you know, other great apes. But in North America,

it's like, what did it look the most like? What looked the most like a person? Because it was kind of like a bear in the fact that it was big and hairy. But other than that, It was much more like a person. I do think you have a lot of individual variation based on age and sex. And so, you know, most apes, including humans, are going to be sexually dimorphic. So the males and females are of different sizes and heights. And, you know, that's true across the other great apes. And it was very true in fossil apes like giganticus.

And so that's going to account for a lot of variation. And then the age factor, you know, as I'm sure you've noticed through all of the, you know, many hundreds of interviews that you've done is that there's not just this height difference that we would associate with age, but there's a mass difference. I notice very often when people describe what seem to be like sub-adult males, very often they'll be in that like maybe six and a half to seven foot tall range, but, you know, no visible breasts, so no indication that it's a female. But how many times have you heard people describe that build that's like an Olympic

swimmer or a basketball player, kind of lean and long? long and lanky. A lot. Yeah. Absolutely. And, you know, almost like if you can, what I picture when I think about that is the, the sort of silhouette that's cut by the creature on the cover of the legend of Boggy Creek, that movie poster, you know, it's kind of long and lanky and slender versus what other

people describe, you know, in taller heights, even still maybe from the seven foot range up and higher is like something that's without that V taper, you know, because the lean and lanky Olympic swimmer built ones, people describe, you know, that V shape, you know, broad shoulders, very well built, but still lean, but, you know, a narrower waist. And then you hear people describe these other adults that are like as thick, you know, from sternum to spine as they are from, you know, the sides of the ribs of the sides of the hips, like one big gigantic barrel of a torso, you know, with no tapering at the waist whatsoever and just incredible mass. And that seems to be age-related too, and that, like, maybe once they reach adulthood, they might not keep getting

taller and taller, but they get more and more massive, as many other animals do. So I think you have the variations that come from age and sex, but then there's things like, how much has the observer been exposed to? What language are they using to describe it? Like, human-like as compared to what? And then one of the examples I used to use when I would try to walk people through different ways that context matters. And I even put it in the book, like I wrote it out and put it in there, but imagine you had two people, hypothetically, who'd never been exposed to guerrillas. They didn't know anything about them and never heard the word, never, you know, been to a zoo or seen a documentary or a photograph, and you take, you know, Observer A to the zoo. And they're given a seat right in

front of the glass and they're allowed to watch, you know, gorillas in broad daylight for, let's say, a few hours. And, you know, we share a lot of behaviors with guerrillas. You always see apes do things that you go, oh, that's so human-like. It's like, well, it's not really like us. And it's not that we act in gorilla-like ways. Just we share behaviors because we have similar forms and similar functions. And so I've seen gorillas do things that were so freakishly human-like.

It'd be hard to describe since we're not on camera. I can't, like, mimic it or whatever. But you could imagine that that person, having watched that for that long, you come back to them and say, what did you see? And they'd say, I don't know what that was, but that was definitely the most human-like thing I've ever seen. I mean, it's not a person because they're covered in hair and they're slightly different, but man,

I've never seen any animal that was as human-like as what I just saw. And then you could take Observer B and you drop them off in the Varunga Mountains at dusk and, you know, rip off their blindfold and say, find your way home, and now they're alone. in the jungle and they're scared. And so they're, you know, on high alert and feeling very tense and they're trying to

bushwhack their way back to camp before it gets dark. And then all of a sudden they get bluff charged. You know, let's just say a silverback comes bursting from the underbrush. They see it for like two to three seconds as it's roaring and screaming. You know, silverbacks have those huge canines, big massive fang-looking teeth. They say that the person falls over in fear and fright and curls into a fire, fetal position and then the gorilla disappears. So they only saw it for like two or three seconds. In those circumstances, in that posture, making those sounds, what do you think that person

would say? If you said, hey, what did you just see? Was it the most manlike animal you've ever seen? They'd probably be like, there's nothing human like about what I just saw. It was a monster. You couldn't believe the fangs on this thing. It was terrifying. It was evil. The sounds it made were horrible. And in reality, it's like, they both saw the same animal in two totally different contexts, in two different states of mind, in two different lighting conditions, in one from a position of safety and security, one from a position of total fear and vulnerability.

And they're describing, they both saw adult male guerrillas. And I think you could sort of infer that about a lot of these reports in that the context bleeds into, I mean, I've interviewed so many people that have had frightening experiences where when you drill down to it,

the Sasquatch didn't do anything, but just stand there and stare, you know. And so I don't think it'd be unreasonable to think, well, maybe it was just as frozen with fear and confusion as you were. But I've had people say things to me like, you know, I rounded it been on a trail and it was standing there and I looked at it and its eyes were filled with hate. And you're like, well, elaborate on that.

And again, you get to the bottom of the story and it just stood there staring frozen stiff. But for whatever reason, that person interpreted it. it as a stare of hate when it's like, well, what if it was just frozen scared? Or what if it was just curious, you know, and just like, what am I looking at? Or why is there a person here or whatever? But I think some investigators would run with that and play up that element of it.

And it is important to note that whatever, for whatever reason, that was the witness's interpretation. And I think you can extend that to when people say that they're more or less human-like or, you know, more or less monstrous beyond just the, the actual physical variations from individual to individual based on age, sex, et cetera. Yeah, your point is well taken. And I do agree with the portion of it. I disagree with other parts of what you just said.

But your point is well taken. I think a lot of times, you know, when you come across an eyewitness and they say it looked evil, a lot of times I'll ask them, what do you mean it looked evil? and then they'll go on to describe the facial expressions. And because a lot of these do look more human-like, I think it's easier for us to cue in on what they're going to do. You know, why did it look evil? Well, its whole head was crinkled, its browridge was down,

it was shown its teeth, and it had this look of it wanted to kill me. So you're kind of going off of what the witness is saying, but they're validating what they're saying as well. That example I just gave you where I played the audio clip of John, he was talking about it looked terrified. He said when they looked up, and again, he described them as being both very human looking,

he said the females' eyes got real big and she just had this look of terror on her face and then she grabbed the little one and they took off. And so they're kind of describing the expressions on the face. And so I think anyone rational could kind of look at that and go, okay, well, that makes sense. I understand why you were feeling the way you were feeling. You know what I mean? Oh, absolutely.

And you think about dogs, you know, what do dogs do when they get scared? Well, you know, they bear their teeth and they growl. You know, so you can imagine if something was seven feet tall and 800 or 1,000 pounds doing that, you would be crazy not to think that maybe wanted to kill you, you know, but it could just be the case that it's scared and that's its fear response as to intimidate, you know,

whatever surprised it into not messing with it. And so I don't discount people's interpretations. I just, I don't think we should take them as being representative of the animal's intentions or motivations. But it's definitely notable if someone says, you know, again, if someone says its eyes were filled with hate. I don't go, ah, well, that's, I go, no, what do you mean by that? Describe, like, tell me what you saw. And, you know, they're giving you an observation

what it is about, you know, the physical features of the face or the position of the brows or whatever it is that's being expressed. And then their interpretation, which they interpreted to be hate, but I just think it's important to keep those two things separate, that it's like, okay, well, a guy saw a Sasquatch that was full of hate. Like, no, no, a guy saw a Sasquatch that in his opinion, you know, the look it gave him made him feel as if its eyes were full. Those are two different propositions, you know, rather than marrying them into like one objective sort of fact or proposition. But I definitely think it's worth, I mean, to me, that's the real beauty of a podcast

like yours. And something I learned from years of witness interviews is that I think that all investigators feel a certain responsibility, or at least, in the past. And I'm sure this is true of maybe legal professions or law enforcement of like, you know, the old just the facts sort of a ethic, you know, of like, let's just record what was observed. And that's important. You know, if you're trying to aggregate data and trying to pursue Sasquatches to have your own siding or to find evidence, then maybe some of the experiential stuff isn't relevant to that pursuit. But so if you read a lot of objective

reports of just what someone claims to have observed and all the subjective is stripped away. They're pretty dry and they're pretty mundane. You know, a person sees the Sasquatch. Sasquatch sees the person. They both run in opposite directions and they're not terribly exciting from that perspective. But as you know, when you speak to someone who's really had an experience, like at least in my experience, it's been that it's very important to them for you to understand how they felt what the experience felt like, like the phenomenological aspects of the experience.

And I've encountered that so many times from people where they will go to great lengths to have me understand or to at least express the amount of fear or the amount of confusion or awe. You know, sometimes it's a positive emotion that's just like complete awe and bewilderment in a positive sense. Like they're in the face of something like truly extraordinary and almost like not sacred or magical, but, you know, something's so rare and, like, it fills them with awe. That's pretty rare. Most of the time, it is fear and confusion of terror, you know.

But they'll go to great links to describe that. I think a lot of investigators might not have recorded that in the early decades of Sasquatch research. And so we're so used to reading about these objective descriptions, you know, claims of, like, physical appearance and behavior. But then when you get into witness interviews, you start to understand. understand why they're revered in the way that they are cross-culturally, you know, whether we're talking about indigenous cultures or, you know, early settlers or, et cetera, that these things are

powerful and in some cases evil, et cetera. And a lot of it has to do with the experience of those encounters. And you just won't get that from reading dry reports that are, you know, just what did you see, leave out all the other things. And I think the podcast world, and especially a podcast like yours that features direct eyewitness testimony. You get a lot of that. You know, one of the things that you and I talked about off the air, and it got me thinking about the appearance of these creatures, I've noticed this with eyewitnesses. It seems like the younger their creature is, the more of a human-like appearance that it has, like episode 419 when I had Anthony on, you know, he was talking about how beautiful this.

young female was and talking about her body and her figure and it was a little uncomfortable, but that's not the first time I've heard that. I've heard it from hunters and hikers that run into a younger one, and they'll say it looked more human-like. You know, with the older females, they'll say, well, you know, I ran into, she was built like a vending machine. It seems like the older they get that human-like appearance, and I'm speaking in general terms here, that human-like appearance kind of goes away. What's your take? I definitely think so in terms of mass. Absolutely. I also think in terms of hair color, you know, one of the things when I was revisiting a lot of reports and a lot of the literature

when I was first writing the book was realizing that it seems like the younger the individuals are, the darker they are. You know, one of the interesting observations that it's sort of spread around anecdotally. So I don't know if it's apocryphal or if it's ever been really demonstrated. I mean, that was one of the big frustrations when I wrote the section on analyses of potential Sasquatch hair is that there's never been a formal analysis. It's always been, you know, somebody collects a sample and they somehow find someone who's willing to look at it. And then that person reports their opinion either in a personal correspondence, in a media interview, in an anecdote in a book, or, you know, on a podcast.

So you can't like find a paper written on, you know, hair samples or, you know, scans very often of like the hair under a microscope. But one of the claims that's been around for a long time, and again, it might be apocryphal, is that the hairs that have this suite of characteristics that sort of rule out other animals, but they share a lot of primate characteristics. And so that's what they put into the category of, like, potential Sasquatch hairs is that regardless of their color, whether to the naked eye, it appears black, or blonde or cinnamon red, or almost gray, that under a microscope, they're varying degrees of red pigment granules, varying degrees of, like, distribution and thickness. And so, no matter what, they're red, but to lesser and lesser degrees, potentially over time, that if you backlight them, they'll show as red. But if they're very, very thick, those pigment granules in a large distribution, then the hair will appear black. And so it could be the case that they fade with age,

but you'll see that when people describe infants or juveniles, they're like jet black, up until about that lean, lanky body form, essentially. What I would think is something like a sub-adult in that six to seven foot tall range. So approximating a taller height, but almost like a teenager. You know, it's a young adult. It's clearly been weaned. It might be autonomous at that point, but it's not a fully grown adult in that sub-adult phase. And then after that, you'll see that there's this correlation between that mass and lighter colors as they trend from like black to brown to like a dark red to a cinnamon red to a blonde to that gray.

Gray is an almost like slate gray. And oftentimes the ones that are described as gray are also the ones that are like the very largest ones, which would make you think like, oh, there's some relationship between age and this hair color. maybe that pigment distribution just fades or becomes lesser and lesser over time. And I think there might be some adaptive benefits to that in that having darker hair with smaller size is really good for dealing with cold environments in the wintertime. Because the smaller you are, you have less internal mass versus your surface area.

So you lose a lot of heat through your surface area. So smaller animals that have to endure sub-freezing temperatures, and especially at night, Like even in the south where people think, oh, it's so hot. I mean, it is. But, you know, South Georgia, for example, in central Georgia, they get below freezing, you know, a lot of the winter and especially at night. And so you would think, well, if you're very small and you're losing a lot of heat to the surface area, it would be advantageous to have very, very dark hair. So you're absorbing more of the sun's heat during the day. You know, you can warm up more rapidly.

But then the inverse would be true that in these areas that do get hot during the summer, you know, southeast Oklahoma, the Gulf Coast, again, Georgia, a lot of southern Appalachia, these other parts of the country. I mean, it gets hot in the northwest in the summertime, too, is that it probably wouldn't be that great for you if you were seven and a half to eight feet tall, a thousand pounds, you know, this huge body with a lot of internal mass with a little bit of surface area, so most of your heat is retained and to be jet black. So there might be this benefit to losing that pigment over time.

And I remember when that pattern started emerging. for me, I thought, oh, man, I've discovered something. Oh, my God. No one's ever written about this before, this correlation with like hair color and age. And then I reread Ivan Sanderson's 1961 book. And it was in there. And I was like, oh, Sanderson figured this out like 60 years ago. My bad. It's just not many people had extrapolated on it or thought about the ways in which that might have adaptive benefits. But I do think there is that change over time as these individuals age. You know, the sex differences, obviously, there seems

to be some difference that you can infer between adult tracks in terms of a length and width ratio. But then obviously, if you're seeing the animal or at least examining claims of the animals, females have some sort of like obvious visible breasts, but they seem to be, you know,

in that max height of like six and a half feet where the males tend to get significantly larger, at least according to eyewitnesses. Yeah, you definitely bring up some good point. Matt, does your theory kind of extend to the facial pigmentation of the skin? A lot of times people will say it was black, jet black in the face. And I would actually say the most common is battleship gray.

But does your theory kind of apply to the pigmentation of the skin? That I really don't know, because that is a variable that some people describe black. I've heard gray skin more often than any other descriptor. And a lot of people describe that even the face is mostly covered with hair. And so few people really see a lot of exposed skin. But then obviously in some individuals, it does seem like maybe the hair is thinner or at least thinner in some places as they report it, like maybe parts of the chest or sections of the face.

But I would say that battleship gray like you described tends to be the most common descriptor. So who knows? Maybe that I'm sure the sun must affect their skin to some degree like it does other animals. I mean, I've seen dogs, you know, change color if they're laying out all day every day in the summertime versus being indoors all day during the winter. And so undoubtedly, they get some degree of like tan, as we would call it. But so maybe that has some sort of a, plays a contributing role to some of that difference too. Who knows? Yeah, really makes you wonder, and you know, you bring up a point about the sun. You know, a lot of times people will say the

face was like a worn leather glove. And I'm assuming that's from the sun, but like he said, who knows? And for the audience, the book again is called the phenomenal Sasquatch, Seeking the Natural Origins of a Cultural Icon by Matt Pruitt, available on Amazon. Link below this episode. I've always wanted to ask you, Matt, and I've asked, I know Bobo has seen the lights. Cliff has not seen the lights. I think that's correct. He hasn't seen the lights. But out of all the years of you going out there, have you ever come across these weird lights that people talk about? No, I've been in places where they're really prominently reported, and I would love to see them, because I definitely think there's something to that phenomenon.

I know people describe earthquake lights in certain places, but there was an area near bumping that we used to go to a lot, up one of the drainage that is very, very close to bumping. And so when we would do these outings, we always called, oh, we're going to bumping, but we were never really on Bumping Lake or in that campground. But it's all, you know, those slopes of Mount Rainier there. I guess the southeastern slope of Reneer. And these people would describe seeing lights every night, you know, on these expeditions. And, you know, I never saw them, but, you know, to be fair, too, at that time, I needed glasses and I didn't know it. You know, because I just lived so long without glasses.

And so I didn't get glasses until I was, gosh, until like 2016, 2017, and then immediately got contacts because I hated wearing glasses. But, you know, you just see the world, the way you see the world, and you think that's correct. But then I would realize, like, oh, people are able to read that sign really far away. And I just, you know, I can tell there's letters on it, but I can't read it and realize, have like a slight astigmatism in each eye and then got contact. So at that time, I was out at night. and I don't I probably needed contacts or glasses back then so maybe that was part of it I don't know but

we'd be on these expeditions and people would see lights and describe it and some of my closest friends like Tyler Brown saw them and then the funny thing is like we would go back there so many times and I would run into people whether it was like backcountry fishermen or hikers and of course you're trying to get Sasquatch stories who'd be like oh you ever seen her heard anything strange back here and they'd be like, oh man, there are these lights. You'd hear that over and over. And then I worked retail, I managed this retail shop in West Seattle. And so people would come in and I'm pretty extroverted, so I'd be making small talk.

And if they said anything about fishing, hunting, hiking, camping, I'd be, oh, you like to go out? Where do you like to go? And you ever seen or heard anything weird? And several customers I met, we'd talk about the area around bumping. And I'd be like, oh, you ever hear any crazy stories out there or see anything strange? And every one of them would be like, man, there are these lights out there. So I know that they are real. I would love to see them.

There's places in the Washatahs where people see them. A very good friend of mine, he and a group were out camping, you know, doing Saskatch research and saw these lights that they described as like appearing and then disappearing and floating autonomously. They all looked like a neon green almost. One of them, they said they were standing in like a semicircle back at base camp with no fire going, just a dark camp. camp and one of these like beach ball size lights just appeared in the middle of them and lit them up.

He said everyone's faces look like, you know, when you're standing in the dark and you look down at your iPhone, how it lights up your face. He said it looked like that. And he was like, I don't know what they are, man, but those lights are real. And there's parts of Appalachia where they report like the Brown Mountain lights, which I've never gone out there to look and see, but I'm always keeping an eye out for that. I would love to see that phenomenon. That seems to be like a worldwide phenomenon that people report all over the planet and have forever. You know, there's a lot of mythology and folklore and oral tradition associated with all that. So I have no doubt that that phenomenon exists.

I just have never seen it. Yeah, the lights are weird, man. You'll have to let me, I'll have to have you back on if you ever see one. I would love to know what your take is. But again, for the audience, I hope people go out and check out Matt's book, The Phenomenal Sasquatch, seeking the natural. origins of a cultural icon and check them out on Bigfoot and Beyond, the podcast, Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff, Bobo and Matt. I think you guys do a great job. And Matt, I can't thank you enough for coming on.

Oh, thanks for having me. We're all big fans of yours. And we really appreciate all your kindness and generosity over the years. And we're always like amazed that you listen to the podcast. We're like, oh, man, Wes listens. We got to shape up. We got to do better because, you know, sometimes we just, again, get on the side track of telling funny stories and laughing and cackling because Bobo's pretty funny. And then we're like, oh, man, Wes is listening. We got to get back to the squatchy stuff. So we appreciate you very much. I appreciate it, man. That's my favorite part when you guys go off topic. Definitely check it out. Bigfoot and beyond. Thanks again, Matt.

And that's it for tonight, everyone. Remember, if you've had an encounter, shoot me an email. My email address is Wes at Sasquatch Chronicles. And if you get a chance to check out Sasquatchpronicles.com You can become a member and get additional shows. Until next time, everyone.