Sasquatch Chronicles - SC EP:22 Anthropologist Erik Garcia

Episode Date: March 16, 2014

Join us Saturday night at 7pm PST for a special show this week. We will be talking to Anthropologist Erik Garcia. Erik Garcia is an Anthropologist who has studied Primatology in great depth and we will be having a round table discussion with everythig related Sasquatch and their behaviors. Erik will be sharing his insight from his scientific study of primates and understanding aspects of their evolution and behavior.

When I had come down the hill, I had seen this creature cross the road. They would have ripped my locked door from my truck, extracted me from my vehicle, and there wouldn't have been a damn thing I could have done about it. Look, this thing I got to notice in his eyes. His eyes was real, real evil, real sinister looking. You know, the look it was giving me. What are you reporting? What's going on now, sir?

That's sort of a bitch is about six foot. Yes, I'm looking right here. Welcome to Bigfoot Hot Spot Radio, Sasquatch Chronicles. I'm your host, Wes, along with my brother Woody, and researcher, author, and friend, William Jeffey. Let's start the show. This episode is brought to you by audible.com. Go to audible trial.com forward slash bigfoot hotspot for your first free downloadable book and your first free 30-day trial. I'm telling you, man.

I was trying to look around for Bigfoot news, you know, some sort of something interesting. and I don't know if it's just me if I'm starting to become jaded or if it's actually getting worse but there is absolutely nothing out there it's like one garbage story after another or just like it's just like non-stop crap out there like I'm trying to go through trying to find something interesting or maybe an interesting audio file

all I'm getting is some guy wants to talk about them mind speaking to him home and then, I mean, just one thing after, it's just like, oh, my God, are you kidding me? I was going to say our pal, Robbie Shaw, he's looking for some older, better accounts, too, for us. Yeah, some of the older accounts. One thing I found that was kind of cool is these people were building a home, and they had built a home, and then when they went to move in, the bathroom closet door actually had a picture of what looked like a Sasquatch face on it.

And when I first, yeah, when I first looked at it, I was like, whoa, that's crazy. But what it is, is it's just the knots in the wood, how it lined up. It looks like two eyes. And then it's just how the wood lined up. It's not like anything fast watch.

But when you look at it, I was like, holy crap, that does look like a freaking big foot face. But it's all how the knots in the wood lined up. And they were freaking out. They actually called. Yeah, the woodcreen. It's pretty funny, man.

They called and complained to the company about the door. And they came out and took a look at it. And they're like, well, it's just the knots, the way they lined up. What I thought I'd do is bring Mike on. Mike had some Bigfoot questions, and he's been trying to get through for the last couple weeks, and our phone lines have been pretty jammed up, so I thought I'd bring him on so that we could answer any questions that he might have. Hey, guys, how you doing?

Oh, doing pretty good. Doing pretty good. Sorry, I know the phone lines have been completely jammed up the last couple weeks, and we've had guests lined up, and I know you've been trying to get through. Did you – so I told you I wanted to give you a call. You said you had a bunch of questions for us. Well, I've got a couple. One was, I've been thinking about it a little bit, and it was sort of touched on last week, but not really.

I mean, just for full disclosure, I'm a Bigfoot skeptic. I mean, I'm not going to tell people, you know, what they have or haven't seen. But, you know, as far as, it's pretty much just kind of an interest of mine I've had since I was a kid. But I've been reading a lot of different encounters and hearing a lot of different reports as of late. And I've noticed a trend where the Sasquatches that people report in the southern United States heading over towards, like, I mean, even the first show I heard of yours was about that

guy, I don't remember his name, but the guy in Oklahoma whose house was more or less continuously attacked for a couple of years. And I don't really know what the resolution. Yeah. And I don't really know what the resolution to that was, but the Sasquatchews. watches in, you know, Oklahoma and Georgia. Well, I don't know about Georgia, but, like, Oklahoma, Texas, Arkansas, they tend to be a bit more aggressive in reports. And I was curious, since you guys, you know, are probably much better read on this kind of stuff than I am, like, is there, like, a theory or reason behind that? Well, Mike, I want to say, first of all, I'm really glad you're a skeptic.

That's what I want people to be. I want them to be because it makes people who are going to make bizarre claims they give. What it looks like is that we probably have two different species. Not everything Bigfoot is Bigfoot, that everybody puts out there talking about that and a variety out there and the ones in the south. And you guys, I don't recall which one, but you guys live in Vancouver, B.C. or Washington? Wes is in Vancouver, Washington, and I'm in Northern California. Now, so you said that there's a theory that these are two, like the Northwest. ones and then the ones in the south are two different species.

What's the rationale behind that? Well, there was, I've talked to a number of people, friends, you know, like it was human. And I was 16 and it did not look human. So I was all species to make that. And then after smaller than normal SAS in the same line, 13 inches long on the same type of material, it's not concrete, it's in relation mode. You're aware of that. But what these two gentlemen from the South are on the show who have seen these

things. They saw those pictures and they said what they saw looked near the stuff where he has, for some reason the artist when they did the eyes, they made the end. They gave it a gorilla different looking in what we have in the Patterson film. Oh, are you talking about that, I haven't actually seen it, but I've seen

the rendering. It's called us and them or something. Right, right. Yeah. So what they said much dead on except for the next. What do you think causes the well, since we don't don't know if they're, like, you know, related per se, but what do you think causes the,

because, I mean, I've listening to the show for a couple of weeks. I just kind of ran across it on YouTube, but I've been listening to a few of them when I'm at work at night. And it sounds like, I really like it. It gives me, you know, it keeps me interested in, I deliver newspapers at night. So, you know, it's kind of cool being a little bit creaked out of the car for some of the places. So, but, yeah, like, I've been listening to.

the show and it sounds a lot like the because I always thought the ones in the Pacific Northwest were just kind of like you know the gentle forest guardians but it sounds like they're pretty they can get pretty agitated and pretty aggressive as well at least a lot more than I thought so well you know it goes back again and I've been around this business for more than 40 years I knew all the original you know the gentle forest the original accounts when people started talking about primate stuff get these ideas

is because they watch or read, you know, Diane Fosse's book about gorillas or, you know, see things on National Geographic or whatever, you know, source of information they get these things from. And then they develop these thoughts and, oh, well, since these creatures are this way, maybe these are too, without anything really to base that on. But the more and more encounters we look at and hear from people, as you can listen to the show, there's a pattern. You know, very similar behaviors.

American friends over the years tell me, you know, have plenty of their areas. where they ended up on reservations that these creatures rove them out of the hunting areas into the wild high regions where they live today. So if you go back beyond that into even more ancient histories between humans and these creatures. And it fits the pattern where they always want to keep. And I think for good reason, we got real civilized. We were pack hunters. And we, current scientists try to blame us for wiping out certain species during the Ice Age now.

So a feature like this in the Indians, a lot of Indians say they were cannibals. any kind of a threat to pot, and I suspect, you know, back in more due today, so that aggressive, we're violent towards them. Well, and here's another question about that. Like, you've obviously been doing this for, you know, since before I was born and a lot longer since then I've been, you know, taken an interest and been reading into it. But how do you tell, like, what's, you must read, you know, a lot of reports? And, you know, I personally don't think that everybody's, I think people, some people, some

people see something, but, I mean, you've been doing this for a while. Do you have kind of like a pretty easy or at least nailed down system to tell when people are lying and if so, what is it? Yeah, yeah. My idea. It can go off pretty quickly. I mean, because like Rick Dyer, that's an obvious one. Oh, good Lord.

We won't go down to the rabbit hole. Yeah, that's an obvious one. but some people, you know, some people were good liars. I was wondering how you can filter that out. Well, it used to be years ago before this really got widespread and a lot of people started looking into it. And there's still things that I keep secret that I haven't told anybody that people like that told me that they were,

I guess it's hard for me. But see, I have the privilege. I just want to tell their story to the whole world, the red flags go up because most of us also seen one. So if they want to come out like Rick Dyer, Boy, he just had to go out and tell the whole world. Bologna. That's the meter goes off.

The first red flag goes up. I think Justin Smedge's story is killed. Oh, Justin Smeha, that guy? Yeah. His story has changed, too. What the guy who got to him? And that's another one. If the stories came. He strangled the baby or something like that.

He shot it in the throat, he says, and it died. He strangled it. Yeah, now he's strangled it. Even if he strangled it, the guy just sounds like he's kind of a dick. if he did something like that. Is that what he's saying now? Yeah, now the story I've heard was that he was poaching bears, I think, out of season, and he shot one.

Actually, they were poaching. They were poaching? But that wasn't the original story he was telling. I talked to him just a few months after this. And what he told me was that they were up there bear hunting legally. And he stopped to look either through his scope or binoculars in this open area, and he saw this adult bigfoot run out there, and it was waving its arms up in the air and kind of jumping around.

I thought, you know, I'm listening to this kind of rolling my eyes mentally at first, but I'm listening. And he says he decided to shoot it, and it ran off, and it would stumble a couple times, but it ran off. And then shortly after that, two about the size of, he said, five-year-old children come running up to within, you know, a few yards of him. And they acted like they were searching for something. So he told me he shot one.

one of them in the throat, and the other one ran off. And then he went and cradled it, and it bled. If he's changed the story, instead of throwing it in the back of the truck and taking it, putting it in a freezer, he and his partner decided to throw it under some two weeks. And he said, he came back and he found a chunk of meat with heroin, and he didn't know what it was from.

He wasn't even sure. I mean, I'm not a hunter or anything, but you figure if you want to preserve something, you're not just going to leave it sitting out in the wilderness for two weeks. No, because scavengers are going to take it apart pretty fast. Yeah, and I don't know. His story just didn't really... Right, yeah, there's no consistency.

So that's kind of your first rule of thumb. There's other stories that I know of that you can... Another example. A lot of people look back at a story that John Green printed and a timer named Albert Ostman, who claims he was packed off any sleeping bag across the mountains one night and held captive by a group of South Carolina. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, Renee, DeHendon, he told me that he was the first person. He told me, says, when you interview people, if they're telling you, we said in the end, I thought, somebody tells me a story and I'll hear the same elements in that person telling me the new story. And I know it's true because it's happened before. Osmond's story has never been repeated, ever.

You mean like, when you say repeated, you mean like in terms of like typical behavior for these animals that's reported? Well, no one else has ever been packed off and held captive by a group of them. No one's ever reported a story like Ostman's. You know, typical stories, lots of them, like West and Woody's story again,

or the guy that I talked to in the gorge who was charged. I know probably half a dozen different stories just off the top of my head where people have been charged by Sasquatches in very similar circumstances. So we'll repeat. And if a species is real, of course, you're going to get repeated behaviors in different circumstances. Okay.

And I just have a couple more questions. I'm sorry for taking up so much your time. I just have a couple more questions, if that's okay. Okay, now this is kind of. of for Wes and you. I've heard, I haven't heard the long version of West and Woody's story, but they, they said, because I know the zern animals, like tigers and things like that use, I don't remember the name, it's like infrasound to, like, paralyze prayer before they attempt to get it.

And when you had your experience, did you, because it sounded like Wes and Woody were, to put it mildly, we're pretty frightened at the whole scenario that... It was an under-changing movement, right, Wes? Yeah, to say the least. And, like, what was your experience, like? Because you told me when you were, what, 16,

you said you became on two of them, like, were they behaving aggressively like that? Well, you know, I walked to the tree line. What do you feel like when you see one? I pushed my way into the tree, I thought it was a porcupine or something in there. and when I entered the clearing, it stopped moving, and that's really all they did because I took off running. It scared the hell out of me.

You know, you're standing in front of something that's eight feet tall and around eight, nine hundred pounds. It's an underwear-changing experience, let me tell you. Right. So I didn't give them the chance to do anything. Had I stayed there any longer, danger, so I took off running. I'm not sure. You know, everybody has, you know, life-changing experiences. But what is, if you have the best you can put it into words, like, what does it feel

like when you see something like that, when you're complete, because I've noticed that a lot of reports, like, people who go out in the woods looking for something like that, like, they don't find it. And, you know, people, a lot of people that see them who have the most compelling stories, in my opinion, are people just kind of, like, stumble onto them doing things or something like that. Like, what does that feel like when you, like, come around a corner and then you see, like, a 900-pound, 10-foot-tall thing standing in front of you? It's nothing but pure fear. And Wes, I'm sure you can give your opinion too.

Yeah, I would say it's fear, shock. I mean, I had nightmares for like a month afterwards, man. It took me six months to get back out in the woods. I mean, I didn't want to go back out, but it's just... You went back out at all? Yeah, I've gone back out since, but I didn't want to go back out for... It took me a long time to get back out there. I'd have never gone back out in the woods ever after someone like that.

with it. Yeah, it takes a long time, man. It's like I've always joked well about it. It's like finding out the boogeyman's real. I mean, he just exactly it. It's pure. I just kind of like changes your perception of reality, kind of. Well, there's nothing that prepares you for it.

And it's so outside of anything you've ever been told. It's like, you know, if aliens were to land on the White House lawn, you know that analogy. It's kind of like that. Well, that's really all the questions I had. I really appreciate answering some of them. And, like, what do you have, what is some of your work that I can look up?

Because I have, I don't believe I've actually read any of it before. You can take a look at my, I have a blog page that's jeveningresearch.blogspot.com. And my books are on Amazon.com. I have notes from the Funted Valley and in search of the unknown. That's just really all I had. And I really appreciate taking my call. And it was cool to talk to you guys. and I'll definitely keep listening.

Well, thanks, Mike. And we're, you know, we're not absolute experts. There's no such thing as an expert in this subject. If it was there, then these things have been proven or disproven 100%. Well, I appreciate you. Like I said, I'm, I hope I don't like, you know, I don't really know. I can't really think of a better word, but I can't, I hope I don't offend you guys by being, I mean, I consider myself open-minded, but even though I'm still, you know, like, pretty

skeptical about the whole thing and I hope you don't find that like automatically offensive I guess oh no I encourage people to be skeptical I encourage my I consider myself one and I think West does too yeah absolutely thanks a lot again guys and I look forward to hearing the rest of your stuff maybe I'll see if I can call back in sometimes I think of anything else thanks Mike appreciate it thanks Mike happy good night guys bye good questions huh yeah he had some good questions. It's funny when he was talking about the two different species when you guys were talking about that. I remember after our encounter, you know, we would talk with, when we very first started the show, we talked to a lot of people on the East Coast, a lot of people down south.

And I remember East always frustrate me. People would talk about how human they looked. And when they would describe the size, it was like half the size of what I saw. And so I would always think, what are these people saying? I mean, that's nothing like what I saw. I mean, it was, you know, and so it used to always frustrate me because, you know, like on the East Coast, they would talk about, oh, well, it was six foot nine and seven foot one. Same thing, you know, I really enjoyed the friendship I had with Bobby Short, and it was always, you know, these things being, because what I saw was not human. So there had to be.

Yeah. Yeah, and they'd always talk about the way I remember people we'd enter. They talked about, well, it's probably three, 400 pounds. I'm like three, 400 pounds. Right, right. I mean, that's a far cry. I mean, a young one maybe, but. Yeah, maybe a young one. But, you know, the one we saw wasn't, it was well over three or 400 pounds.

So, I mean, there has to be two different species, you know. And I remember when you first said that, it kind of clicked with me. I was like, you know what, I bet there is two different. There has to be two different species because we saw a lot of things, a lot of the confusion out there. Yeah. And when you and I were talking the other day about dogman one, how a, you know, like a baboon, like a baboon, that's kind of a longer snout, you know, and maybe this is getting confused with, maybe it's an offshoot of one of these things. You don't hear a whole lot of dog man stories out here, though. I never even heard of the other man.

No, not out here. And that's something I wanted to ask Eric about, too, was, you know, what his thoughts were as far as, you know, the occasional mutation. Yeah. And, you know, our species has people that have, you know, rare diseases and mutations that kind of want to get his, maybe these things, or who knows. Yeah. I had to kind of laugh a little bit at Mike when he was saying, hey, I hope you guys aren't offended by my skepticism. You know, it's, I mean, 90% of this field is dealing with crazies all day long. It's like refreshing to talk to someone who's skeptical.

It was. That's why I always told people I enjoy the skeptics. I remember for those out there who know who, Mike, great guy, I said, no, I, you know, when you look at the cross-section of people out there. Yeah. Everyone here at Bigfoot Hot Spot Hot Spot Spot Radio would like to thank Audible.com. Audible.com is the internet leading provider of audiobooks with over 150,000 different titles to choose from. To download a free audiobook of your choice, go to audibletrial.com forward slash bigbutt hot. spot.

Apology and has been psychology but he's been a great help. Gentlemen. How are you guys doing? What's happening, Eric? Nothing much. Feeling better. This is a good thing.

I had my back work done so feeling a little bit looser now. Nice. Loose is good. Let me start with addressing the question that the guy tweeted me about. So now this is something in this subject because people don't know.

I know my own encounters a gentleman that never gets talked by these guys because they were the world famous Sasquatch hunters. What I was the Sasquatch male genitalia. I guess to answer this, give you about that from your know, what might be the cause? Most primates, except for man,

have very small penises, almost invisible. And erect, they're usually only about three inches. That's why you never see anything. And I suspect that's the same. just not something that's till it. Abate all that. It goes back to, we don't have sexual dimorphism.

It's a morphological and physiological difference between males and females in the species. As in most primates, and especially in the great eights and the old world monkeys, body size is, males are generally larger than the females due to the weight and muscular development.

And this is true for most of the species of primates, except for us. and the given. Okay, so hopefully that'll answer a little bit of that question. But now on the feces part, the scat, that is something we know a little more about. And I also, in my first book, taught me about many years ago. In fact, Renee used to make, he made fun of him one time when they were on the Northwest Expedition back in the early 60s, that little story. And he would laugh. He said one day they were examining back up a little bit before the Northwest expedition. We implanted fiber, plant, fiber is material. I saw some animal hair in that I could have

match it up to any of the animals in the region. And I look, I spent about four hours looking at that picture, Will, in trying to match up, compare it to scat samples from other species in the area, and I couldn't find any match. And what was interesting, you

put me on to chimp and gorilla feces. And it's kind of similar. But it's very different, too. But it is different, too. I'm thinking that these things eat a lot more. It might not just be the type of plant

material that they're eating up here, but also I think their diets are probably more heavy in meat. Yeah, I think you're right about that. I think they'll eat plants, you know, whatever's available, but they are definitely going after the protein. As anybody, how often do you actually find the spore? I have a couple places I can go there every summer and find it. I'm just wondering if, because most people, they're looking for it, but they never find it. And I'm wondering if they practice coprophesia, the consumption of their own feces? You know, I don't know because we find a lot of it.

And I have primate feces. They poop pretty prolifically, don't they? Yes, especially if they're eating heavy vegetarian diet. And I get that backed up with this area number four. When they're in there, it's prolific. I mean, in there it doesn't seem like a single day I counted. And, of course, these were very, they're eating pretty heavily in there during, you know, most people, I mean, I think people might mistake these piles if they see them for bear. I don't look like bear droppings.

No, but bear droppings will only get up to about maximum an inch, inch and a half in thick. Their droppings are used about, you know, if a car were to come along and hit that, they would have. It's something once you know what it looks like. Yeah, isn't it kind of sad that the Bigfoot community has become such a joke? that, you know, we have their feces, we have footprints, we have all this beyond anecdotal. Yeah, beyond anecdotal evidence, you know, stories. There's actual evidence, and it still can't be proven. Well, have you tried to have yours tested any of the samples that you felt?

I haven't, no. That would be something interesting. Well, that's something that, I mean, we talked about going to the field this year. And I'd like to be able to take a few people into this place. But we also find hair. are we find. And I'm reading that. It says that gorillas will eat their own feces as well as some chimpanzees.

I didn't know they would do that. They actually do it. They think to try to get more of the vitamins out of their waste matter. And they've also been observed eating horse feces for the salt content. That's interesting. That's gross. It is. It is gross.

My colleague used to like to go out of the pasture. We knocked out the penises. We knocked out... I don't know if we want to put it that way. Are we still talking, you know what? That could be a painful... I said we go with... We talk poop and penis.

Yeah, we got poop and penis. We're going to get the two girls' one cup jokes now. Yeah, yeah. I wanted to ask, Eric, do you female primates, generally speaking, do they have, you know, like in the Patty film, in the Patterson film, there was breasts that were shown. And I've heard a lot of different primate researchers say, well, in the primate world, like with gorillas and with chimps, you don't see that with female.

When they're feeding, when they're nursing, they do. See, and that's what I wondered. I asked Renee about that many years ago. I said, Renee, it didn't make any sense when the way Patterson and Gimlin came onto that location, they came around to bend in the creek there. And here this thing was just, but it didn't. It went out across. And it actually turned back to look to see if they were,

when they're not feeding. The patty was trying to steer the direction away from it. Like a lot of animals do, they'll... Yeah, it makes sense. You know, I never hit until you just said that, the way it walked, because you're right. It could have gone the other way, gone right into the brush and been gone.

And in many cases, they do, they'll go the other way. Right. And here's something else. when Tittmus went there 10 days later, he tracked the creature. And it actually went down the creek quite a while after. You know what I felt interesting about the film was that the breast looked fur covered, like hair covered. Right. Well, I'll tell you something about that too.

Renee had all those individual slides. You can actually see the nipples on the slides. In the slide tool, did it ever show its teeth? Did you ever? I mean, I guess you can't really see it from the slides. You couldn't run on the slides, but Jimlin told me he saw the teeth. like it was like showing its teeth he said he saw the teeth its tongue

he got a much better look than Patterson did he said at one point he was actually closer to it he said it was actually a light artifact of whatever the film process he said but it was actually a lighter color he said it also had a not a very happy look yeah it doesn't look real happy in the film no he doesn't

the breast profile in the stills looked closer and more comparable to a human female's breasts than what you would normally see in the Great Apes. Yeah, I think you're right about that. That's what I thought, too. That might be a result of bipedalism. And how, oh, do you think that would be the cause of that, huh? All the Great Apes, as I was saying, all the great apes are true quadrupeds, like

dogs, horses, etc. They can walk for short periods of time on their hind legs, but that's not their true form of locomotion. And this is due to the shape and width of their pelvis and their upper bodies. If these animals are walking bipedally most of the time, that

might have caused morphological and physiological changes in the anatomy of the females and allow them to have more of a breast like a human versus the other great AIDS. Here's something I thought up too

that might be interesting. We get people, some of these people out there to say they, they're referring to the high, the highway bone and the throat. Right, right. They might, they might also be lacking, but we don't know for sure, but they might, they're either lacking or they do have a broken's region in the brain, which they postulate is the source of speech. So I think they communicate with each other.

I really do. I think that they have. Oh, absolutely. The range of their vocalizations is scary. It's almost on par with speech. And you think about that, the range of vocalizations that chimpanzees and orangutans and gorillas have, it's comparable to what we would call speech,

just not speech in a way that we would understand it. Some of the recordings I've heard, it does sound like they're talking to each other. Well, now, Wes, you sort of felt like they were communicating that group, right? Yeah, communicating in a different way. I didn't think there was, I mean, we didn't hear any speech. It was more visual things, though, right? It was more, yeah, it just felt like there was planning going on.

You know what it made me think of, and I didn't think about this until the other day? I think Eric sent it to you and you sent it to me, Will, was the chimpanzees when they were hunting those other monkeys. Right. And I should post that up on Facebook, but it was really interesting that the planning that goes on. It's like they were all walking in sync with each other, and then the male hits his feet against the tree to start off the hunt. It was fascinating, wasn't it? It reminds me we were talking about, like, the wood knocks and things. Yeah, it was really fascinating. The way they coordinated their attack, how they kind of

all surrounded the monkeys and kind of left them no way out. And that's kind of what I mean when I think there was like communication going on. Like there was some sort of plan, I think there was planning going on in our encounter, but we didn't hear any. There was no speech. There was no vocalizations beyond a growl. Here's something I wonder about, too, and it goes along with that. A lot of times, and I've used before talking about, and watching that video about the chimps, you know, when the dominant male left its feet against the tree. Like everyone had their place.

They knew what they were doing. What do you think about that, Eric? Do you think that the Sasquatch woman, a lot of times when people... Wes, did you hear any knocking you and your brother prior to being surrounded? No. No, no, no, no knocks, no nothing. I'm kind of wondering if you guys stumbled on to them during a hunt. It sounds, your guys in the counter sounded a lot like the encounter that, Will, that you sent me and emailed about the lady up in Canada. It sounded a lot like that.

Well, what I thought was they stumbled in on a hunt before you actually run in. Yeah, the deer were reacting real skittish. I mean, the deer were acting, not like I've ever seen deer act before, just real skittish, like something wasn't, something wasn't right. Didn't you say you saw some poachers driving down, breakneck feet on your guys' way up? Probably a month or two later. There was poachers that were, we saw them coming down the mountain the same way we had come down the mountain like a month or two prior. I mean, they were doing like 75. It's almost like this guy couldn't get off the mountain quick enough.

And the only people really up there are poachers. It's a ghost town most of the time. But poachers go up there because no one else really goes up in that area. Will could have something here. They could have been in the middle of a hunt when you guys interrupted them. And they could have decided, okay, this is how we deal with humans. And if there was any young ones with them, they could have been showing them how. Yeah, you see that when I had my first thing to that adult, obviously they knew I was there.

Got the impression later thinking back on it. That's just my own impression that maybe it was being shown the ropes and such. Especially chimps now, if they practice it or when they're young, is that right? Yes. That's exactly how most primates learn. I mean, we as humans learn that way by observation. We look at our parents, our grandparents, our family members when we're small at our informative years. And that's how we learn.

It's a cognitive process. Yeah, the one up in the tree was kind of a smaller one. It looks like it was just kind of checking us out, not really, I wouldn't really say engaging us, but, you know, he was just kind of up in the tree. I mean, he was smaller than the rest of the ones that we had seen. I wonder if that one was the sentry. It might well have been. I think they knew as soon as the brothers pulled up into the area, they knew they were there.

Right. Oh, absolutely. Especially if they spread out, like you said, will. I mean, yeah, we'll. Right, right. Especially if they spread out, like you said. They probably knew right away that there was humans coming up into the mountain. And they must have just...

I'm wondering if... Wess and Wood had not been in their car, what would have happened? It could have been a very different outcome. That reminded me of the story of the guy and his girlfriend when they heard him when they were hiking

and they got out and they got out and they stopped for a cigarette and it screamed right at him I think they give warnings I think they give warnings they get plenty of warnings except them what to humans yeah I think except in situations like the Sixes Wild Man and the Teddy Roosevelt story right those people were being hunted and I'm thinking those are rogues well I think those are rogue either young males or rogue males that have been kicked out of the truth because in the Teddy Roe There wasn't something with that, you know, as far as the rogue.

And I used to think, and not because they were, you know, behavior was... I've only heard of two instances that I can recall where groups attacked people. And that was the Mount St. Hallin's incident. And the other one was the Honobo. There was the only two instances where a whole group was being overly aggressive. Yeah, it seems to be less so than with the... And that's why I think they're rogues. they don't have any social structure anymore.

There's no rules to abide by. Those instances remind me a lot of what happened in Falk in the last century. You never hear of any groups in the South or the East. It's always individuals that keeps bothering me. I don't know if that's a territorial thing or their range is so much smaller than the ones over here that maybe their structure more like orangutans where they only come together to mate. It could be. The one thing that made me think about that, though, was when Kundo was talking about.

Remember when he said they were out riding there, chasing the deer? I'm going to have to try to see if I can get Todd Dissotel's information, the guy that was on the scientists on the $10 million Bigfoot bounty. Right. He was one of my best friends in college. She went to NYU

for her master's program and he was her advisor. I know that he doesn't, I know he's not a believer, but maybe when we find fresh samples, maybe we can send those to him. Yeah, it'd be interesting to find out. I don't think he's stated as much that he's not a believer,

but he's willing to test any sample sent to him. And he has a good reputation. I would rather have somebody the subject at all, because I think you're going to get a better, you know, on any, I don't want any sort of, because then I always call it. We also have to have

anybody that goes on the expedition needs to be trained in evidence handling. Absolutely. We have to have latex gloves. Nobody can, we can't risk

human contamination. Right, right. Do you guys think that getting anything beyond bones or teeth is really worth gathering? Any samples worth gathering? I think my honest opinion is anything short of a body or a huge piece of a body is going to be too little, to be honest. Yeah, right. And my view is, right, I do agree with that, teeth or bones or fecal samples. that's very important.

I've never been a fan of some of the scientists who find a few teeth, and, oh, they extrapolate a whole description of a creature, and they don't even know how it walked. They have no pelvis, they have no leg bones or any other bones that can identify a form of locomotion. Exactly. Like the giganticus. We know what he exists, but all they have are, I think,

a couple of jaws and a bunch of teeth. Yeah, and you might be able to extrapolate size. The non-scientific term that we used to use was, it's a guesstimate. Yeah, right. We used it in the Army that's called the Swag Method, the Scientific Wild-Ass Gass. That's what we used to talk about in skeletal identification in osteology. You're only going to get a two-to-five-year range if you're within the proper boundaries, and you're doing everything right.

you're going to get a two to five-year range, but it's still a guesstimate. And see, that used to bug me, too, when I listened to the profitees. You're going to kind of, you know, just sort of, you know, I listen because how do you get all that out of this? I think a lot of people in academia have big heads. I actually had a very straightforward teacher, very no nonsense, so he's the one that taught us that. It's still a guesstimate. It's not concrete. And that's the problem that's pushed off on the public is everybody's told,

how can it be absolute the truth when these things change year after year? You know, everything changed. Like we're talking about the different, there's possibly two to three different species in the United States alone. Right. And I'm thinking what's happening in the south and east, because now there seems to be so many more sightings and in the Midwest, and I'm thinking that that's what's happening is just like what's happening in Southern California. California with mountain lions.

It's an encroachment, human encroachment into the areas. Right. More people are moving into these rural states from places like California, New York, because it's too expensive to live in those states. Oh, yeah, right. You can be making $15 an hour and get yourself a nice five-acre spread in Tennessee. Yeah. They don't like human contact, so when people go, like the Bluff Creek area,

roads had never been put into them, and they wouldn't come right to the side of that area. Will, you said that that group in Bluff Creek was aggressive? That's what Bob Titma said, yes. And he got in it and covered him. I believe he, I'd have to read it. He said it was the same. Now, this begs the question. Was the female trying to distract them from a young one, or was he trying to lure them to the two others that were there?

Well, that's a good question. I tend to think myself that had the young one. I was wondering if maybe the female was trying to lure Patterson and Gimlin. I think it was trying to draw them away from the young one. If they had kept following, I think the other two would have attacked. And see, that's something I asked Bob Gimlin once. I asked him, I said, well, how come you guys didn't follow it? And he said, we were afraid of where the other two were.

That makes a lot of sense. Just listening to the show and hearing all the different accounts and the behaviors are so similar. And see, that's something that Mike earlier had asked, like with myself. So like with never seen another account, never occurred anywhere else in the body of information. It's amazing. I'm so glad that you knew Renee because they never say what he really felt about things in the books. In the old books. They never talk about how he really felt.

I've been asked us a million times, and people want to know what's the best way to draw Sasquatch in. No, that's a great question. And actually, I had been thinking about bringing this up because this was something that Will and I were discussing a couple of weeks ago. I sent you guys' pictures. I don't know what everybody else thought of the pictures, but you and Will both identified the hair as being similar to a chimpanzees. More than the other primates, yes. Right. So if that is the case, then what is most commonly thought is gigantic.

They come from gigantopithecus, or they are gigantopithecus, which would put them related to orangutans, because orangutans were the first of the grade 8s to break off, and that would make them very old. But the observation that you and Will, your guy's feedback, that tells me, And this is just hypothetical that they could be a lot younger than we originally thought. And that would put them, with their bipedalism and their hair, that would put them maybe possibly at a parallel branch off with us and chimpanzees because humans and chimpanzees broke off from each other at one area of time. And with their bipedalism and their hair and their behaviors,

this would lead me to hypothesize that they might have broken off at the same time, which would make them a lot younger than gorillas and orangutans. You know what's interesting about, I know that even to make a deer bolt. Right. If you know that they're pretend, seem to, I think that's more they're communicating with them. I agree with that. Yeah, I wonder. It's important for people to understand that.

I had suggested to Will, Wes, that take GoPro cameras on the expedition. They're small, they're lightweight, we can wear them on ourselves, or we can put them on tents. Like Will just said, they're going to come to us. And I think the main mistake that many researchers in this field make is that they put these trail cams out on these trails. And like Will said, they're ambushed predators. They're not going to come down the trails. They're going to go off the trail. Yeah, they're waiting for the game to come down the trail.

They're going to be off the trail. And how many times do these game cameras actually catch animals on them? It's not a real high frequency. Most primates can see in trichromatic color. They see in color. They see reds, blues, and greens just like we can. But what if they can see some form of spectrum from the infrared spectrum. Most infrared cameras, trail cams, they're operating night.

They use night vision or infrared. Even night vision sends out an infrared beam to amplify the available light. If these things can see even a small portion of that spectrum, they might be seen a beam of infrared light that is coming off the cameras, and that's how they avoid them. Yeah, to get a total passive night vision site, you'd have to have a million of the tanks we had. we had, they were before the Abrams tank, the M60 ones, and

when they'd use, that was they may have developed it. I know they may have another cone, they may have another cone in their in their retinas that allow them to see in that spectrum, especially if they're

operating mostly at night. Right, and we know they hunt mostly during those time periods, or feed, in general. I was telling Will West, that my friend who's also ex-military, he was telling me that even the top grade military do give off some form of infrared light, but they compensate for that by putting a lens cap on the lenses to cut down that infrared light

so that they don't produce a large beam. They wouldn't want to be seen by somebody else. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. Mike from Siege of Hanabi, he told me that he ended up putting those trail cams up around his house, and they've been staying away. They actually will stay away.

And he theorized it because of the infrared, but for whatever reason, they just don't like the trail cams that are, so he actually set up trail camps to get them to back off of his property. You know something also, you know, when you put something out in there, I didn't like any other primates. And I'm sure most of these people put these cameras out and don't everything. Right. And they're putting them at eight feet, and the average height of these things is eight feet.

Right. It's well in range of them to see them. They can't walk right up and see it there. But I do think there is something to it. My friend is very intelligent, but he's an everyday man like us, and he just has that different dimension of thinking. and he thinks the logical, technical aspects of things. I think more in behavior, whereas he thinks he takes in all the little unknowns.

Another example we were talking about, how fast can they go for how long? And he goes, how fast is the fastest sprinter, Olympic sprinter, go, and how long can he go for? If these things are carrying that much mass, they probably, and like you, said, well, they're very energy conservant. Right. How fast can they really go as far, like for a long distance? I know they can go very fast for a short distance, but I was thinking back to all the, I witnessed the accounts of them pacing a car going around 35 miles an hour.

Well, how long did those incidents really take place? Yeah, you know, the one guy that I talked to that had one pace his car, it wasn't the long ways. But he said it got up, you know, 35 miles an hour or so, and then, you know, it stopped. I've read the accounts, like, in books, and everybody seems to think that it's, it sounds like they say it's like a minute, two minutes, but that's probably physically impossible for them. Yeah. You're thinking five to ten seconds, maybe. But when you see something like that. A minute or more is probably the upper limit, you know, if that was serious.

But I think you're right. It's probably a much shorter duration. Maybe it seemed like a minute. Yeah, because we can't comprehend what we're seeing. Right. And so time is going to slow down for us. See, and again, that goes back to that traumatic experience. You know, when people are trying to estimate time and things like that,

I don't think they realize that the effect that that encounter has on them. And I'm sure Wes will bear this out. You guys said your whole perception of time was way off. Looking back, I would say the encounter should have only taken 30, maybe 40 minutes tops, and we were there three hours. I mean, and we actually argued about the time going down the mountain because I thought its clock was wrong. I thought there's no way we're there that long.

And I think you're right. It does go to trauma, you know. That's what I have. I think that their experience was not in the norm. I think that for that length of time, and I believe them, I completely believe them. time slowed down so much for them that, you know, actual time slowed down, but in their, in their experience, time was going fast. Right. And that's not the norm for most of these encounters.

And I think that it's, I agree with you, it's the trauma and the fear. You know, your mind is trying to grasp what's going on and then to grapple with that. So maybe, you know, maybe it's sort of. It's that flight or fight mechanism that we have. Adrenaline's pumping. Yeah. This has so much effects on the human body and the mind. It's almost like being on speed from what I understand.

Yeah, and that's funny you mention that because for about two days after that whole encounter, I was just exhausted. I mean, just completely and physically, mentally, just completely wiped out. Yeah, I don't think anybody's ever done any kind of a study on. that, you know, with witnesses, and I've never heard of anything. How many witnesses have been subjected to a legitimate hypnotist? You know, I don't know. That's a good question. That'd be another, I've actually been thinking about seeing that like and learned to do that.

Yeah, I don't know. For interviewing techniques, that would, I think that would be beneficial. It would be an interesting venue to pursue anyway. I was going to make a joke. Go right ahead. If you got the opinion of one of the Bigfoot researchers that believe they're interdimensional beings, they would have said that Weston Wood were in another dimension. That's why the time for it.

Yeah, we've been told that before. Actually, believe it or not. Oh, Lord. Yeah, it's funny. We've been told the interdimensional thing. We've been told, I mean, some of the stuff we've been told, I was just like, I don't think so. You know, and some of the different, just some of the different things we've been told. It's like, I don't think so.

Well, you guys did legalize marijuana in Washington, man. Yeah, well, sure. Now we know where the interdimensions are. I wanted to ask you, do a lot of primates have, and I guess this is probably going to be a dumb question, but I'll go ahead and ask it. No question is a dumb question. Well, I wouldn't go that far. And maybe, Will, you can interject on this. Do primates have, and I guess I can't really think of like a gorilla or a chimp?

You know, one thing I've been thinking about a lot lately is people talk about facial expressions. Right. I was reading this YouTube video where this guy came upon this Sasquatch by accident, and they almost came face-to-face together. And the way he describes it is it's something that Mike had mentioned when it looked down and actually had seen Mike's gun, but its eyes got real big and it kind of went back like it was surprised, you know, actually surprised to see him.

And I wonder... I can give you an exact example of that. Yeah. I didn't quite catch that when we were talking about the head going back and the eyes getting big. Yeah. Remember when I talked about the Yak-hold incident in 1989? The 16-year-old boy, young Nick, ran out and he looked like it was surprised. Oh, the great-aids are very expressionate.

they are very capable of making facial expressions. I can tell you a story during my time at San Francisco State when I was gaining my first BA degree in anthropology, we were taking primate behavior. And one of the things that we did was we went to the zoo multiple times and would observe the primates, grade 8s, et cetera. Gorilla, you can communicate with the gorilla very simply. you open palm beat your chest and usually the grills will respond either with another chest pump. That's usually a male thing, but the male had died.

And so there was just female guerrillas at the time. And I did that multiple times and I actually got a response from one of the females. She was sitting on a rock slightly turned away from me. And when I did that, she turned her whole upper body just like. a Sasquatch would because they're next. And she looked at me, she opened her eyes wide, she smiled at me, and then she waved her tongue left to right. I don't know if she was flirting with me or not, but...

Interesting. I don't see you had a date, Eric. Yeah. It would have been one of the few of many, the few up there. Come on, buddy. But she did, I did elicit a response from her. You know, because Mike, you know, in our intro, you know, where, It's the second guy talking.

He's actually Mike Woolley where he says, the look it was given me. Its eyes look real, real evil. You know, the look it was given me. If you listen to that in the intro, what he was actually talking about was in his encounter,

he had seen two satswashes were chasing a deer. They went behind a tree, and basically he was sitting in a tree stand looking at this thing. And he had raised his gun up, but he wasn't, he didn't raise it up to shoot.

He was actually just looking through the scope to get a better look at it. When he did that, it's almost like it pissed off the Sasquatch and it had whistled off into the direction off to its side and another one was coming

and when it looked back up at Mike he said it almost like grinned at him like an evil grin kind of like you're in trouble now so you hear that all the time you hear about these different facial expressions and I never really gave it a lot of thought until you start going back

and listening to these different encounters like with Will's how he was saying they were glaring at him Oh, yeah. It was an angry look. It was an angry look, yeah. And here's another one, too. Separate occasions, years apart.

They would, in both cases, it would look at them for a bit and then look bored. They said both of them, they look bored and it walked away. Gorillas do that. They're not really bored, but they're trying to give you the impression that they're bored. They're trying to see what you're due. Right. Testing that behavior. And we were, I was, Wes, I was talking to Will about,

a new subspecies of chimpanzee that they found. It's called the Billy Ape. And they're chimpanzees, but they have a lot of behaviors of gorillas. One charged a group of people like it was going to attack, and then when it realized that they were people, stopped and looked at them with an expression of curiosity on them, and then it turned around and left. You know, I'm very similar to what a lot of Sasquatches do.

They'll do that. And then they'll... Now, the billy ape walks on two feet, isn't it? No, it's... No, they're like every other chimp. They can walk bipedially for short amounts of time, but they're true quadrupeds. Their locomotion is knuckle walking.

That's what I was thinking of. That's sort of an intermediary between quadruped and biped. And it also has to do... Yes, you're very right. And if you look at a list of the craniums of fossil humans and Raleigh commonates, you see that hole where the spinal column meets the base of the skull is called the Ferraman, sorry, the Ferraman magnum. And as our ancestors progressed to bipedal locomotion, you see that Ferraman Magnum start to move down to its current position in us.

Right. Another thing is that the apes, if you look at their pelvic bones, they're very narrow. They're not wide like ours. They're very narrow. So that also facilitates them having to do the knuckle walk. Have you seen the... I think I might have. It's very interesting what he did with that.

I mean, he not only, because he's an expert in he made, you know, things like that. like the suit things. When he talked about with the Patterson film was the joints completely different than in human being. The upper body, you know, the trunk of the longer, same with the arms, the forearm is much longer than the upper arm bones. Or somebody in a suit, he said, when they make a suit for actors, they have to make the suit.

He did not line up with any sort of a human configuration at all. I thought that was very interesting, too. I don't know how many times I've watched that film, and there's no way that's a suit. Not for that time. Especially when you look at the back, one of my favorite of the creature walking away. Do you notice how uniform the hair was? It was very uniform, yes. And they saw it in October, right?

Right. Okay. Now, we know that during that time they had the Planet of the Apes movies, and they couldn't make a suit like that. It was impossible. In fact, they showed Disney. Disney at the time was the number one special effects makers in 1967, and the people at Disney said,

we wish we could do something that good. My theory on the uniformity of the hair could be that it was growing a winter pelt. Yeah, very likely. Because most of the eyewitness accounts, they're shaggy or the hair varied in length. But when you look at the film, The uniformity of the hair on the creature was amazing. And you only see that in animals that increase their hair or fur, their pel.

The two I saw, the two I saw the hair was, it was a little longer, and I don't know, I can only say in places it was mad that it had... The closest comparison in real life would be a gorilla. Right. as far as the way their hair lays as far as the uniformity of the length. But I really think that their hair comes and goes with the season. It's funny you mentioned the Planet of the Apes and Will you mention the back.

If you ever go back and watch the Planet of the Apes movie, you'll notice you'll never see them from behind. They're always from the front. And the reason is, is to get into the suit, you always had to get in from the back. And so for Patterson to actually show the back of the Sasquatch like that, that's one thing you brought up Bill Munn's. That's one thing he said,

if you were to watch the planet of the apes from that time frame, you'll never see the backside of the people in the ape suits because that's how they actually got into the suits. And so they always tried to avoid shooting from back. Look at its range of motion. It's locomotion when it's... Nobody in a suit would be able to walk that even, on that type of terrain.

That thing was walking naturally like it was walking on concrete. And we know that that area was not concrete. No, it was river sand, which is very difficult to walk in. And if you notice through the bent leg walk, the Sasquatch doesn't straighten its leg out. The knees are always bent.

And Munn's talked in there about that because what they do is they walk almost pigeon-toed. that somebody made that that and the feet are straight and they'll pick their feet up and they don't walk toe heel like we do the feet come up the leg goes over and it goes straight

it's actually a better design than what we have for walking obviously their pelvis is designed so that they can go on all fours as well that's probably why they have that bent leg walk and this brings up a good point because I wanted to ask you this I've read about the Yeti and the Himalayas

and other accounts from Native Americans and they talk about them walking with their toes pointing backwards. I was always wondered what that meant. Well, you know, some of those stories, they talk about them deceiving. Some of that might be just... I'm wondering about their intelligence

because the Hanobo incident when he said that he pulled the gun it's almost like it recognized what the gun was. Oh, I could, too. I encountered knew what I was holding my hands, too. A few rifle, but it was a rifle. They didn't attack me either. They probably didn't perceive you as a threat.

Maybe they were just trying to assess the situation. You know, I don't know. I've played... How tall were you at the time? Geez, I was about five. They probably didn't perceive you as a threat, as my reckoning. Will and West, or West and Wood, you guys are kind of hefty guys, aren't you?

Yeah, I'm about... Well, the thing is, is we never got out of our car. I know about six foot and about 230 pounds, but I never actually, you know, we never actually got out of the, well, Woody got out of the car just for a brief moment. But, you know, he's about 5'9. He's a pretty big guy. But I think the fact that we didn't freak out maybe caused them to think we were a threat, the fact that we weren't doing the normal, like, we didn't gun it out of there. We weren't screaming and yelling. and we weren't.

I mean, we were in fear, but we just kind of sat there. And so I think that, I mean, in any time... You might have made them wary. I think it did. I think it made them think these guys that don't seem to be afraid, especially when the alpha male stepped out, you know, and we just kind of sat there. I think that really threw them off, even though he was...

Well, that one's behavior sort of seemed to me like he was trying to get you to react. Yeah, he was very provoking. I mean, it was like, um, His behavior was very, like you said, he almost was trying to push buttons, almost trying to call us out to react. I know when I get in a car, I'm huge. It doesn't matter. It has to be a pretty big truck for me to not look big. And you guys are big guys, so you guys probably looked pretty big in that vehicle.

He was probably challenging you guys, like you said, to try to get a reaction to see what you guys would do. I think you guys not reacting through them. off. You see this in guerrilla, a lot of times in gorilla displays and chimpanzee displays, the person is sitting in shock or fear, but they're not reacting. And that makes the animal wary, because if you're not showing fear, you may be throwing off fear, but you're not showing fear. And so now you're something to be reckoned with.

You're an unknown. Right. Just kind of like a wild card. They don't really know how we're going to react. Right. Or what you're capable of. Right. But then again, as long as you don't do anything, then you're not a threat.

And I think that's what happened is the fact that we just sat there and didn't do anything. They ended up leaving. And I tell people don't interact with them. Because, number one, you don't know what the outcome is going to be. You don't know what their intentions are, what their... Yeah, those are all factors. Look what people do. Even animals have bad days.

Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, you know, if you're neither a threat nor anything, you're not just not... Yeah, the thing that worries me about the Sasquatch is, you know, I'm not a huge fan of monkeys, but, you know, as far as their behavior goes, it just, like we were talking about earlier, their behaviors remind me so much of chimpanzees. The way they... I mean, a lot of what they do reminds me of a chimp. All the different behaviors you hear people report as far as, like, throwing rocks or throwing tantrums,

or... Yeah, it's more like chimps than any other ape. Yeah, it is. It's a lot like chimpanzees. I mean, there's some behaviors that are like gorillas, but that's more to do with feeding and things like that. Right. I really think that that goes back to where they branched off.

And I think it's a high probability with their being able to walk bipedally, but still being hair covered the way they are, that they branched off at the same time that, humans and chimps branched off from each other. Right. They all just went different directions. Maybe the other species are related to orangutans. Like, I told Will, I don't know how many times that picture that that lady sent anonymously

to the police in Florida, that thing, that looked real, and it's got eyeshine. I don't think that was a suit. It looked like an orangut, but it had way more hair than an orangutan. Yeah, and it was huge. and it had the different shadings if you notice it had white hair around its mouth which would show some which would determine or not determine

but indicate that it was an older individual but the hair the hair is just it's too real it's too real and I look at that picture and I'm like this is not Patty this is something else it's exactly very different And I think it might be even more primitive than the paddy ones.

I think that it's definitely looking at a different species. I do think those are more primitive than what we have out here in the North West. Which, if that's the case, they could be more related to orangutans. Because that thing looked like an orangutanang, and its facial structure. It just didn't have the big cedentous, sagittal crest like a male orang would have. Now, ring and things don't get to be that big, do they? I mean, ringings are only... A male orang can be over 100 pounds easily.

Really? Wow. And they look, if you stretch them out straight, they'd probably be around 5 feet tall. Really? Well. Maybe a little bit more. A male chip can get up to... A full-grown male chip can get around, I believe, it's 5-4 to 5-7 on the upper range.

Yeah, it's pretty big. And they're easily around 150 pounds, and they're massive. Their chests and their farms are just massive. I didn't know that. I didn't know they got to be that big. Yeah, they're about the size of an average male human being, male chimpanzee. And they're four times as strong. So extrapolate that to a Sasquatch.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'll tell you what, you know, I showed you those trees that I found mangled and snappy. you realize very clinton like that out in the wild. I'm going to will. I think there's more than, I think there's multiple species around the earth. And I think that some of them probably have a common ancestor and some of them may be branched off.

I'm beginning of the water. Maybe some of them branched off before Patty. Yeah, there's so many unknowns. I mean, it's kind of fun to speculate it, but a lot of unknowns. The only way to determine that would be to get a sample of each of the multiple species and run full study on them, physiologically, anatomically, DNA. That's the only way. Yeah, there's a lot to do with all this.

One thing that bothered me was, well, one thing that bothered me with Vendermini was the us and them. You know, him and I had sent emails back and forth, and I was trying to get them on the show. And one of the things I didn't, it kind of hit me is, is he said, I don't think. think that your audience would agree with a lot of my theories and also that I believe that these creatures are still alive today. I think our audience would agree with this series, but the second part of his statement is what, for him to say, hey, you know what, I still think these things are running around today. You know, I just assumed through watching a lot of his different YouTube videos that he was

of the thought that these things were extinct, but you know what, the, you know, it's something, But he actually still believes that these creatures are around today. And I know with Kumbo and with one of the guys... What Kumbos said was what he saw, when he's seen these things, the other type, you know, in the South, was that when he looked at Vandermini's, you know, where they always use... And I think he might be right about that with our anthropomorphism. You know, they get these people who do artist reconstructions, then those pictures are what they came up with.

And Kumbos said that what he's seen multiple times looks exactly. like that except I don't know why they not human those pictures? Yeah, I, I, the guy has no scientific background. I think he's a, I think

he's a, I think it was a lucky fluke on the artist's part. Right. I, I think he's on to something, but I don't think it's Neanderthals. No, I don't either. The Antertall has made tools and, but I

definitely think that he's on the right track of something. I just thought it was interesting that that actually looked exactly like what they're seeing in the south. But you see, the thing that bothered me about it was they drew the creature, but what they thought the creature looked like on the anatole skull. Right. You know, we actually had a forensic artist on campus,

and I watched her work, and it was nothing like even drawing. She drew, and she also worked with clay, and it was nothing like what they did. but it begs to, it begs the question why he came up with this theory. You know, he may not, maybe he is talking about Sasquatch, but he's trying not to be discredited by talking about Sasquatch. Well, I'll go back and look that, but I thought they actually brought in somebody who did, you know, when you go to a lab and they take a skull to find out what, you know,

a miskin depth knowledge, they put little, you know, little dots on there and they can recreate. Yeah. Did they do that? I can't remember if they did that. I didn't think they did. I was, I'm off looking at it, but I'm thinking that's what they did with that. The structure on the image was, I thought, was wrong. I mean, it just...

Because they actually had, they have a model with it recreated on the skull. If you, I've held the, we had to hold craniums of a Niannertal and a human, and there's not a whole lot of difference except the size. They had a, the bigger brain, our brain capacity, on average is, I think it's 1,650 C Cs somewhere around there. Yeah, about 200 Cc's larger. Yes, they were in about 200, a little over 200 Cc's, 2,000 Cs on their cranium capacity. They didn't have the arch that we have in our chins, which allow us to be more gray-style in our bone structure

because they had strength. They didn't have that arch. So also, their diet, they had to have a more robust skeletal structure to adjust for the food that they were consuming and the lives of they were living at the time. Another thing is, like we see on Sasquatch, they have that sageal crest. It may not be as pronounced as a gorilla's, but that's for those muscle attachments for the jaw. For the heavy jaw, right. Yeah, they need that. Just like the ones that I saw up close had that crest.

They had, and the jaws were massive. You know, people don't understand that. You know, from in one of Green's books where there was a couple up in a trip. They found he didn't and said we didn't have room. So she snuck the jawbone into her. Wes, I don't know if Will told you, but we were discussing, maybe we have found remains and we misidentified them. Yeah, I've thought about that.

I've thought about that before. Oh, I think there have been a lot of times. And, you know, you're talking about Van Dramini there, you know, he did. Right. I mean, you know, who knows what the guy, you know, because it got something and it was interesting that, you know, I keep going back to Cumber. One thing I was telling Will about a friend, and what they saw in my area, they called it a, he said it was a pumpkin-shaped head. and that jogged a memory of mine from reading the old Sasquatch books and the account of the Momo Monster, the Missouri Monster,

who also described as having a pumpkin-shaped head. Yeah, that's interesting. I know, like, the heads on ours, and I've told Bullets before, it's almost like the heads should have been bigger for what the body size was. Yeah, I think that's where the positioning is, too, you know, if it's lower. Yeah. Their anatomy is very similar to gorillas as far as their upper body. When I was listening to the response from the female gorilla, she turned just like Taddy.

You know, something on the sagittal crest, you know, like with gorillas, when you look at a group of gorillas, not all of them have exactly the same head. That crest is small. Yes. Could be standard variation of the species. Right, right. that would make that would I'd love to be on

when you guys have a bear or Canobu on Cumbull. Yeah. Yeah. I'd love to pick their brains. Yeah, we'll have to I know a lot of people were upset with Will and I and said the show wasn't long enough with Cumbo and Bear.

Yeah, we need to set it up with them and bring you on Eric too so we can have kind of a round. Yeah, we should. We should definitely do that. We should do that. You want to do that next week? Let's do that next week. It'd be an excellent show.

I'm down for it. Okay. Let's do it then. All right, guys. You guys have a great weekend. I'm going to go see my buddy that just got back from Afghanistan. All right. Well, we appreciate all your insights, buddy. Yeah.

You know, you guys are helping me out, too, because I'm learning how to listen to interviews. I've always been interested in the subject since I was a little boy. And having my experiences where I never thought I would have them, It's just been a big help. Yeah. Well, we're glad with that, so. Let's plan on it next week. I'll get in touch with Cumbo, Bearer, and we'll have Eric on, and we'll do a little roundtable.

Let's do it. Sounds good to me. All right, fellas. Well, you guys, have a good night. It was a pleasure talking to you guys. Good night, guys. Sports betting is sweeping across the country faster than the coronavirus, and wagering week is your antidote. I'm Tom Martin, and I'm a veteran sports analyst and response.

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