Sasquatch Chronicles - SC EP:399 Remembering John Bindernagel

Episode Date: January 20, 2018

John A. Bindernagel (born 1941 - January 18, 2018) was a wildlife biologist who sought evidence for Bigfoot since 1963. He published a book in 1998 entitled North America's Great Ape: the Sasquatch. Bindernagel grew up in Ontario, attended the University of Guelph, and received a PhD in Biology from the University of Wisconsin–Madison. He moved to British Columbia in 1975, largely because the region was a hot spot for Bigfoot sightings. I have invited many friends of the Doc to come on and talk about what John meant to them, and share their memories of him. I will also be playing some clips of past shows with John. Tonight I will be joined by Bob Gimlin, Russell Acord, Derek Randles, Ron Morehead, Paul Graves, Marc Myrsell, Thomas Sewid, Rictor Riolo, Shane Corson, and Todd and Diane Neiss. I know so many people wanted to come on and talk about John and I tried to fit in as many as possible. I think I can sum up the show tonight like this: John was an example of how to be a great human being. He always treated people with respect and was loved and admired by many. I hope when you hear the show you remember John. Check out his website HERE.

Black thing go from left to right, and I thought, I'm going to die out here and no one's ever going to know. I couldn't believe what my eyeballs was showing me. I'll never forget how evil the eyes were. It was horrible. I mean, I've never seen nothing that evil. It ran towards me at a rate that I can't even explain, turned and stared at me, and this look of, I just want to kill you. I want to say it was human, but it wasn't. He was yelling at me to grab a gun, grab a gun. I was like, for what? He said, just grab a gun.

And there's footprints all the way to the door of my house. It had went inside my garage all the way to the door. 911, what are you reporting? Get somebody out here. What's going on now, sir? That son of a bitch is about six foot, nine, I don't know. Do you see him now, sir? Yes, I'm looking right at him.

Uh-oh. You're listening to Sasquatch Chronicles. Check us out online at Sasquatch Chronicles.com. If you've had an encounter, email me. My email address is Wes at Sasquatch Chronicles.com. Welcome to the show, everyone. Thanks for being here tonight. Got a different show planned tonight.

We'll be remembering our friend, John Bendernoggle. Yeah, I'll apologize to the audience. I'm already breaking down. I'll probably break down throughout the show. well, I'm not good with this sort of thing. We lost John to cancer. And John had been sick for a long time. He never know it.

He was such a beautiful human being. He had such a spirit about him. He would never know this man was sick. He was positive all the time. And I used to call John all the time, give him crazy theories, crazy ideas, share encounters with them. You know, John would always, before he got down to business, John would always say, hey, Wes, how are you doing?

He would ask about my dog. He would ask about my mom. He was just a good man. And he'll be sorely missed, that's for sure, sorely missed. And so tonight, forgive me, audience, I'll try and pull it together here. Tonight I have many of his friends coming on. We're going to be talking about the good times,

John and how much he meant to each of these people. And I have Bob Gamlin, Russell Cord, a lot of people lined up to come on and talk about John. And I know a lot more wanted to come on and share their feelings about John. And if I could sum John up in a few words, I would say he was a great human being and he'll be sorely missed. Before I break down here like a schoolgirl, let's get into it. And I want to welcome Russell Accord to the show. Russell, how are you tonight? I'm doing okay today.

Well, tonight we are remembering her friend, the doc. And if you would, Russell, would you talk a little bit about what John meant to you and maybe share any memories that you have of him? Yeah, there's so many things to say about him. And I can't think of anything that I wouldn't want to have said about myself because everything that's ever been said about Dr. John Benernigel is positive. and upbuilding and uplifting and he was somebody who just was enthusiastic and believed in everything that he did. And he put his neck on the line. He came forward with information and despite what

people thought of his credentials, he was willing to say, you know, what he needed to without any fear. I was going to have him speak at the International Bigfoot Conference in 2016. And he was unable to make it because he was struggling with his medical condition at that time and was going through some treatment. It was just really difficult for him to travel. But the conversations we had on the phone were just positive. And he said, if you'd like me to, I can do a video and you can play it. And he was able to get that to Dr. Jeff Meldrum. And we were able to play that little bit of a video on the first conference.

Last year, I was lucky enough to have had him take the stage where we gave him a lifetime Achievement Award for, and I couldn't think of a better time, a better place, and a better person to get it to. It was just wonderful. But last summer, or last year, just before the Todd and the guys did the Operation C Monkey, my wife and I drove up to see Dr. Ben O'Negel and his wife and spend a day or two up there. And I wanted to do an interview. And there was some funny things going on around at that time where people would ask him, Dr. John, are you crazy? You know, and just kind of having fun with that.

And that's one of the things I remember about him is because he would, he periodically off camera, he would look at me and he would just kind of smile and say, and no, I'm not crazy. So during the interview, I actually turned and looked at him and I said, are you delusional? Are you crazy? And we had a little laugh with that. But the interview, I will actually. clean it up and put it together and I'll turn it loose on Facebook for anybody and everybody just to enjoy. The man is a gentleman. He was soft-spoken and the one thing that you couldn't help but get caught up in

is when you got in the room with him, his enthusiasm was just insane. He was just enthusiastic and loving and caring. And I think looking at him now, that would be something that we could all just kind of take a page out of his playbook. on that. We need to be more uplifting and encouraging and loving and enthusiastic about what we do. It's, um, the odds are against us. There's a lot of people that say Bigfoot is not real or that, you know, you're wasting your time. And until it's proved that he doesn't exist, I want to prove and try to prove that he does exist. And that's just kind of the, the path that I've been on and I want to continue and I spoke to him Tuesday. I was able to actually, I called up and Tuesday, I believe he passed on Wednesday. I got, I called up and Joan answered the phone and I said, is there a chance?

I know he's resting and I know he's medicating. Is there a chance I might be able to speak to him? And she said, well, let me check. I think he's awake. So when I got to talk to him, his words were crystal clear. He, his message was crystal clear. He was medicated and it was, he was struggling with speaking, but I asked him,

I said, you know, is there anything that you want us to do? And he said, and his message was, find the proof, find the scientific proof and prove to these people that it's there.

He said, I, it's just got to be done. It's, you know, and I assured him that the work would continue, and that that's exactly what we would do. And I spoke for the entire Bigfoot community, and maybe I didn't have the right to do that, but I did.

I told him that we admired his work and we cared for him, and we appreciated each and everything that he contributed. And most of all, I told him that we all appreciated his enthusiasm and what he brought. And if you disagree with that, I'm sorry that I spoke for, you know, anybody else, but I felt that I thought was doing the right thing. he needed to hear that we all loved him and that we all cared. And that's the message I really wanted him to feel before I got out the phone with him. I think that came across crystal clear. And his medication was slowing him down, but his mind was so racing a mile a minute. And it was just a wonderful conversation.

And when I got the news, it just crushed me. But what a wonderful man. It was. It was. And he was. You know, it's crushing to hear it. You know, John loved life. and he as I was as I've said before in the show you know I don't think people really knew how sick John actually was and all of us that were close to him knew how sick he actually was but he never complained about it he would he would never you know he was always positive he was always I remember um it was probably oh a week or two ago he was trying to say goodbye to me on the phone and and I mean like goodbye And I always loved John.

He used to always say bye for now. And I asked him one time, what do you mean by for now? Why do you always say that? And he said, it's never goodbye, Wes. And two weeks ago, he was trying to say goodbye to me. And, you know, I just wouldn't hear it. He was loved. Sorry, man, breaking up.

He was loved. Yeah, he was. I understand that fully. And he'll be missed. That's for sure. the one thing that really set me back in my chair

when I spoke with him was you know I said that because he had he told me he was trying to get some information

on DVD together because he said I won't be able to be there on 2018 he said I'd like to get some material together for you to show and we've been

corresponding about that for the last couple months and I didn't realize that we were that close you know and when I called I just kind of mentioned, you know, I said, I said, I know you're, you're dealing with a lot.

And I said, if you don't have time to work on that DVD or the presentation, I said, don't worry about it. Because we all remember how you took that stage last year and that sort of thing. And it sent me back in my chair because you said, no, no, I'm done. You know, he said, Russ, he said it twice. He said, Russ, I'm done. I can't continue it anymore. And I thought, wow. For a man who never slowed down, who never quit, you never saw a skip in a step or a slowing of the pace.

That was the first time it just, that hurt hearing him say that because it would be, it's just the man who never quits, admitting that he's got to quit is difficult to accept. But he was at peace with the direction he was going. I mean, he said a couple things that led me to believe that he understood that this was the final leg of this journey, you know, and that this was kind of it for him in this capacity. And it was interesting to hear him speak like that. But it was hard, you know, he was, he was just the kind of guy that you wanted to be near or wanted to do research with or wanted to speak to. you know, you sit in the room with that guy and you get caught up in it. Yeah, you did. He really was a giant, you know, in this field.

And as far as he was probably one of the best human beings I've ever met. And, you know, he would be laughing right now if he knew we're all, you know, breaking down over him. But, you know, he was such a humble guy. And he was, and I think that's what really drew me to him is that he was so humble and he could come down to your level. I used to talk to John all the time off the air. and he would always take my call and I'd always want to talk to him about a picture of a track or I'd want to talk to him about some encounter story

and try and get his opinion on it and you know John never made you feel stupid he never made you feel inferior to him you know on an intelligence scale I think John was above pretty much everyone but he could always come down to your level and he could always talk to you at your level and you know when I had him on the show

the fans loved them and I think I think having him, the last time I talked to him, well, one of the last couple times I talked to him, the last conversation we had was about two weeks ago. But I remember right before the Christmas show, he wanted to come on. And he said, Wes, can I come on your show? And when I first started doing the show, I don't think John knew what a podcast was. I kind of had to explain to him what a podcast was. I don't think it ever really clicked with him. But when he would come on the show, I know he would just get flooded with emails.

And so he saw that there was value in the podcast because his voice was out there. And he used to always say to me, Wes, keep my, you know, keep my name alive. Let me come on the show. And I'm like, you're John Bendernoggle. You keep my name alive, man. You come on, you come on anytime you want. You don't even have to ask. You just come on.

You let me know the date and time. And I'll drop what I'm doing to have you on. But he will, he'll be sorely missed, sorely missed. I agree. I agree. I just, I think that his, what he brought, what he, and I, when I think of him, and I have to think of him often now, because I get you and me, everybody out there that's actually listening, we all have our own life or own agenda, we run into things that pick us off, traffic, somebody at work, somebody trolling you on Facebook or somebody making a harsh comment and, you know, while you're out and about. those things don't mean squat. They really don't.

They're quite insignificant. And I watched him. He took ridicule. He had some rough years. And he had, it was, it didn't phase him. He didn't care. He's head up and walking proud. It just did not bother him.

Or at least it didn't show that it bothered him if it did. But he taught me that, regardless of who's saying what and what's going on, it's really what happens within your own home. And if you can look in the mirror and feel that what you are doing is honest and with integrity and genuine, you really don't have to answer to anyone. Because at the end game,

he's not answering to anyone because he's confident with what he did. And it just, he was the ray of sunlight that came in the room. You just knew that he was confident. He knew what he was doing. He knew what he was saying. And it was shameless because there was no reason to be worried about, you know, what was coming out of his mouth. He was solid. Yeah. He would always give you advice, you know, and good advice. And there's a lot of times off the air where, you know, he would give me advice and we talk about life and just talk about different things. And, you know, it was more than the show. I know when people listen to the show, they just hear us talking back and forth about. Bigfoot. I think the reason why I'm so broken up over it is because, you know, I knew John and had a real friendship with him. And like I said, when we talk off the air, you know, John was

always worried about what you. He never talked about himself. He never talked about how sick he was. You always want to know how you were doing. I know when I was, I've been fighting walking pneumonia, and he would call me and just say, hey, how are you doing? Are you taking care of yourself? Are you, it was never about Bigfoot. He just wanted to know how you were doing. And There's only, you know, I think he was a hero to a lot of us, and there's only one John. And a lot of us can strive to try and be like him, but at the end of the day, you can't be John. There was only one. I agree.

I think maybe we, I want to kind of keep remembering that, that he was a great example to follow, and I want to try to follow in those footsteps of just enthusiasm. That's one thing I've not been able to bring to the table is the enthusiasm that he's been able. I don't know that anybody could, but the enthusiasm he brought was definitely worth being in the room with. And he's just good to all people. You know, some people that would challenge him, he would still treat them the same way he would, somebody who didn't challenge him. He was always equal in the level about giving people his time and giving a solid dancer

and being just a dignified gentleman. I think that's about the only way to put it, just dignity. Yeah, he really was. Well, I appreciate coming on, Russell, and sharing your memory of John. And he's gone, but he's not forgotten. And he's definitely loved. And I really appreciate coming on this weekend as we remember our friend, John Bendernaugel, as I called him Doc.

Remember him, and thank you again for coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you. And for the audience, too, if they go to YouTube and type in John Bendernoggle, you'll find his YouTube channel. and I'll put a link to the website. I highly recommend people go to John's YouTube channel. He does presentations on, and they're very professionally done, John. He does presentations on the Sasquatch, and they're very informative.

And, you know, John, as you and I were saying before we're on air, as I was telling you, you know, you do such a great job at dumbing the subject down. I don't know if that's a proper term to use, but you don't talk above anyone, but I would imagine a scientist could sit and watch it. I would imagine someone who's not a scientist could sit and watch it and get information from your videos. And the other thing, too, is, and I wish I really had this. You have a very warm, compassionate delivery of how you do it. It's very engaging.

And I think that's something natural. I don't think you can really teach someone that. But you do such a great job with these presentations. I really wish at these conferences for the, Bigfoot researchers, investigators listening, if you might give a speech, I would say go and copy what John's doing. Take his model, steal it, and use this as your model for when you give a presentation because you, and I don't know if you can copy John, but, you know, take a look at what he's doing as far as his presentation goes. It's very professional, very concise, and I get a lot out of them,

John. I post him to the Sasquatch Chronicles all the time. Well, well, thanks. I just want to say, go on, go on. It's very encouraging, because, you know, I came to this, I guess it's a conclusion that, you know, people are not reading books the way we used to. We are watching a lot more video. So I started this kind of new, well, for me a new idea,

research videos, trying to keep them short, but they still go 10 to 20 minutes. You know, I try, no, it's long for YouTube. And I've got them linked now to, or it's very, well, almost a major part of my website, My son is helping because some of them on YouTube I've actually upgraded and re-edited, and we get the kind of final version with a bit of explanation and introduction on the website under the heading research videos.

And just commenting on that other point about compassion. Well, I am compassionate with eyewitnesses and amateur investigators because it's so hard to get a hearing. It's so hard to, you know, get our, well, I witnessed. descriptions talked about in a proper context. And I have to be careful. I am trying to bring the subject into the context of an unfolding scientific discovery, which it is. So anyway, that's just a bit of background. But thanks again for the encouragement. No, no, absolutely. And you know, it's interesting when I, when I, we were at Beachfoot, I interviewed you a couple years back. I think it was 2015. I interviewed you. And shortly after that interview, it was.

contacted by a very prominent professor. I won't say what university, but he's a primatologist. I'm sure if I said the university, it'd be easy to track this guy down. But he, his students kept coming to him because they listen on their phone. They listen on iTunes. They listen on Stitcher. And they kept coming to him and saying, hey, you've got to hear the show. You got to hear the show. Because, you know, the show is basically, the bulk of the show is people's encounters, people saying what they've seen. And you're right. It is very hard to get people to come forward. I would say for every one witness you hear on the show, I've probably talked to 10, 15 people that don't want to come on the show,

but want to tell someone their encounter. And so he started listening to it as a goof. He thought, well, this is ridiculous, but I'll entertain my students and let them know I listen to it. And the first show he listened to was actually my Beachfoot interviews. And he looked you up on Wikipedia. And he said, if Dr. Benner-Naggle is willing to take a look at this, maybe I should take a look at this.

So he started listening to the shows. And he told me, he goes, you know, Wes, in the scientific world, eyewitness accounts really isn't evidence, but it kind of is. I mean, you learn a lot from what eyewitnesses say, but, you know, on the record, I'll say that's not evidence. Off the record, I'm fascinated by it. And he said, you know, you start to see a lot of very primate, non-human primate type behavior with the Sasquatch. And he'll email me, you know, once every two months or so and say, hey, you know, that last show you did. Here's kind of a comparison with the great apes. Here's kind of a comparison with chimpanzees.

Here's kind of. And so he'll give me a little bit insight. But it's interesting because here's a professor who's a closet, Bigfoot enthusiast, but he won't say it publicly. And I know you kind of went through that. I think you had more. Still. Still. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, and forgive my language, but I think you have more balls than a lot of these scientists because you're willing to... Well, thank you for that. Well, you're willing to put your neck out there, and people don't understand that. Well, you know, it sounds arrogant, but it's because we're right. And I can't say that. You know, we do have to reserve, you know, some doubt. We're called that as scientists, you know, even if you feel 99.9% confident that your conclusions are correct, which I do, you do have to say, oh, Are they all hoaxies? But no, no.

And the reason I'm so confident in the evidence is because of, you know, the work that you do and other amateur investigators do. They collect and they document evidence and they bring it to our attention. And I'm on side with this primatolid saying, you know, we can make sense of that. I think that's our kind of scientific obligation. We, you know, we've studied primate, like non-human primates. We say, hey, this is very consider. with what we see in, like I'm doing right now something on that short, thick neck. You look at the well-developed trapezias muscles of a gorilla.

You say, oh, gee, that's the way people are drawing Sasquatches for me. You know, it's almost a taper from the head down to right out to the shoulders. It's an anatomical explanation. So it's kind of exciting when you see things falling out to place and you can, into place, and you can say, hey, we can explain that. So I really would like to get in touch with this person. And I'm encouraged that he, you know, found my take on it, you know, worth following up, because I'm not getting that from my scientific colleagues elsewhere.

But anyway, thanks. And yeah, no, absolutely. And it's fascinating to me because there is a lot of professionals that listen to the show, but they do it in a private setting. They don't really talk about it. But I think a lot more scientists are probably interested in this than most people realize. I think, well, we can kind of go into it. You know, I know back in 1963, you started looking into this.

And for the audience out there, you have your Ph.D. in biology from the University of Wisconsin. And, you know, there's a mindset I don't think a lot of people realize. You know, I hear this moan and cry all the time from the Bigfoot world that, why don't scientists take us seriously? Why don't scientists? And, you know, being a respected wildlife biologist, what really drove you to look into this topic? because as you and I both know, that's very taboo, and it could cost you your career looking into this. What drove you to look into it?

For what I want to say, I do all that moaning myself. I mean, you know, my big push right now is to try and get my scientific colleagues on side, and I'm talking about colleagues in the relevant scientific disciplines. Well, mammology, primatology, you know, physical anthropology, and certainly my professional wildlife colleagues. But, you know, this treatment of the Sasquatch is scientifically taboo is so longstanding. It's quite difficult. So anyway, but thanks for raising that.

Oh, sorry, what I keep saying to them, you know, it's way too late for us to look proactive, but we don't have to look as if we have our heads in the sand, which is the way it's coming out. And something came up. I think it was at that same Beachwood conference you were talking about. Stan Avery from Banden made a really good comment. He said, and he talked to me. You know, the point I made in a recent video is that eyewitnesses are puzzled by the absence of scientific participation in this discovery process. Well, they're more than puzzled.

His question was, I don't understand why science would squander their hard-earned reputation. for openness, you know, by ignoring this evidence. Anyway, that's all background. So very briefly, yeah, it was 1963. I was a third-year student in the actual course was Wildlife Management, small class, about 13 of us, and I had at a barbershop actually seen a copy of a true magazine. I know, I know, I probably shouldn't even mention it was in, true magazine. But it was an article by Ivan Sanderson, who's written extensively on the

Sasquatch and other hominids. Anyway, and it was the William Role account of 1955 in central British Columbia, really good account. And anyway, and there was an illustration there. So I raised this in class at the end of a class. We always had a little discussion. I said, what about this ape man? You know, talking about in BC. And my classmates, you know, they laugh, ha, ha, ha, come on, come on, John, you know. And the professor said, oh, I'm sorry, we don't have time for that sort of thing. We need to keep studying on, you know, reproduction and habitat choices and wolves, moose, deer, you know. And it was just that attitude of dismissal because I was, what, about 21, 22 then, still, well, I was still idealistic.

I guess I, maybe, I'm still idealistic, but now I guess it's more like night. but for being so idealistic. But anyway, I thought, gee, we shouldn't be dismissing this so out of hand, should be. But you know, there was almost nothing available then. But by the late 60s, John Green's book started to come out. And there were these IWin's accounts, and there was John Green being very, very good about his writing, very serious. So that got me going, and it led to our family moving out here to Bruce Columbia, in 1975. But, you know, for a long time not admitting my, or trying not to admit my interest in this subject, because I was trying to remain employable as a professional wildlife biologist.

I was doing consulting. And it's only been more recently that I would say come out of the closet, but come out more forcefully with regard to my colleagues, because I think we should be involved. Well, I want to welcome Mr. Bob Gimlin to the show. How are you? Hey, I'm doing fine this morning. A little sad about my friend John, B.C. Canada, they're there, you know, thousands of people.

You know, and when he would speak, it was just like, you know, John had such an incredible good way of speaking. I'd see him in his beautiful little wife, Joan always such an incredible friendly guy. And Joan, pretty little Joan, she was the same way, you know. So to me, losing John has been an awful sad thing to happen. I know we got to. And I realized that John had had some problems, but I never knew what magnitude. But I'd heard that he wasn't doing real good. But I thought knowing John, he'd bounced right back in the spring.

Like, I don't like to see a lot of the fellows aging that I care so much about. like John Green and John Benedict. And those guys are so important to, you know, the Sasquatch Bigfoot. You know what? It's going to be sad and they're going to be missing John a whole lot. So I just wish Joan the best up there and hope that she's going to be all right because those people were just like family to me. And I don't know how I was to them, but I hope it was as good as I think.

felt about John and Joan. And, you know, to him for letting me talk about John like this because I didn't know any other way to, because I imagine she's got calls from all over the world about John. Yeah, John was definitely loved. You know, John, you're right, Bob. I mean, the minute you met the guy, you really liked him. And when you got to know him, you loved him. Absolutely, yeah.

Yeah, he was just so warm. Go ahead. Bob. No, no, no. There are not enough words in my vocabulary to tell how I felt about John. Yeah, he really was. He really was. And, you know, it's tough. And, you know, I didn't know if I was going to do this show. But I loved John. And I wanted to do some sort of tribute. Have people come on and talk about what John meant to them. Have people come on and talk about, you know, any memories they have of him. Um, was there any memory that you want to share as far as, well, nothing, uh, different. Every time I was around John, it was just a special, uh, he just had that charisma or that feeling that, you know, that you were so welcome and he was so knowledgeable about so many

things. And, you know, I always, uh, really enjoyed seeing John movies arms around, you know, and sometimes he'd get pretty excited. You know, it was just something great to see John up there speaking and talking. And you knew him well enough. And another thing I want to say is thank you so much for doing this and allowing me to talk about John and express my feelings towards John. You know, he just, he was just, like I say, there is no words that I say to John that much, you know.

Yeah. was definitely loved. Well, thank you, Bob. Thank you for taking the time to come out and talk about John and what he meant to you. And I think your feelings pretty much summed it up the way all of us felt about him. And I hope so. Yeah, he's definitely missed. Definitely missed. Well, I want to thank you for allowing me to because it means a lot to me. I'm doing okay. And I don't try to call because I don't hear hardly good at all, you know. And hearing A's hurt so bad I don't use them. But thank you again for allowing me to talk about John.

Thank you, Bob. You're most welcome. One of the things I want to ask you is, do you think there's a fear or there's with scientists, and you can speak to this level, do you think it's more of a fear of if I look into this, there might be something to it? Or do you think it's more of, well, I'm not going to risk my reputation? on this. Oh, for sure. And this is what forced me in that second book into this area of called philosophy of science, history and philosophy of science, which sounds dry as bones and

deadly boring, but actually, it's kind of exciting because a lot of it is the scientific discoveries. And one finds that if a discovery claim is perceived as far-fetched, oh, the discovery process gets so prolonged. And I think this is going to be a record. Like, it's been over 100 years from our early historical accounts, not even mentioning the reports from Aboriginal people in early American. But published historical accounts, I'm now, you know, back at 1841. Anyway, so that's why I spend a lot of my time now in philosophy of science trying to understand, you know, this resistance. And that's where Lila had cheek, the Princeton PhD, who helped me edit the book and who wrote a very, very impressive forward for it, helped me out.

And she kept directing me to people like legal scholars and archaeologists. And, you know, some scientists have, they've kind of questioned scientific ideals. We really aren't as open-minded as we like to think we are. And especially if the claim is, well, like the Sasquot, I mean, you know, it's very clear. What? You're saying there's a seven-foot tall, 600-pound upright mammal looking like a primitive human or an ape here in North America, and it's still not in mammal field guides, the Peterson series, the other books. You know, it just sounds incomprehensible. So this is what we're off against.

Well, I want to welcome Thomas Seward back to the show. Tom, thanks for coming on. Oh, thanks a lot for calling me, West. I appreciate it. you give me a call for this what you want to talk about today yeah remember our friend john bendernoggle i used to always call him doc and uh i know he meant a lot to a lot of people what what did john mean to you tom he's well number one he was a very good friend of mine and my teacher he's you know he was always there whether it be phone or email or just going indian and dropping in at his place and

Comox there and banging on his door. He was always there to offer a tea and all the help he could with his knowledge. And when I had questions, he did his best to answer him. He was a really good friend. Yeah, he was a good man. And I don't know that if he wants to remember it as a Bigfoot guy or not, but he was definitely a good man. Is there any memories that you can share of him that maybe the audience has never heard before? Oh, I get the best memory is just every time you talked to him or saw him. He was, as everyone knows, he was always jittering and dancing and all excited.

You know, when he got into his passion and his love of Sasquatch, Bigfoot research, you know, he would be just stammering and stuttering and his body would be just a twitching, and that's one of the greatest memories I have of him. That was John.

He was always there, and he made your day when you were sitting down to talk to him. I guess the best memory I have, though, made me laugh. was when I was a commercial fisherman there after my sighting, I guess it was about a year later. We were good friends by then, and I told them, I said, hey, and the same time as last year when I had my sighting,

let's go up there on my boat. We loaded up a couple of my crew and John, and we jumped on the fish boat. We went to native anchorage and dropped anchor and looked around on the beach in the bush that day in the abandoned village. And, you know, we had a full day, and he had to travel early in the morning,

so he was pretty tired. After it got dark, we're on deck of the boat, and we're just sitting there being quiet, seeing if we can hear any vocalizations or anything. I heard John, he was sleeping. I thought, fine, no problem, I'll wake him up, but I hear anything. But then I kept hearing myself,

I could hear this ringing and hissing noise, and I'm like, what the hell is that? So I go check the radios and everything, nothing. But when I come back towards John, I hear it. And that's when I realized it was his two hearing aids. So I gave him a nudge. And I'm like, hey, John, turn your damn hearing aids down. It's all I can hear is the humming and squealing.

He's laughing away and takes him out, turns him off and goes back to sleep. But, you know, that was, you know, made me chuckle. It always does. It's one of my great memories of my time with him on expeditions doing research. But it epitomizes who this man was. You know, this was a man that in his early part of his life, I guess after he got out of university, it was in Africa, you told me. He was contracted to help some of the indigenous people sort of assimilate into the modern world by,

okay, now you've got to go out instead of walking around hunting, gathering. You're going to go out and shoot animals with guns and bring meat to your community and hides and so forth. So he was bringing out these Bushmen and teaching him how to hunt. Of course, he's driving the land rover. he told me and they were shooting right above them with the high-powered rifles and that's what blew his eardrums out and that's why you had to use hearing aids the whole time I knew them and we shared that because my right ear being blown out by the they're hunting clients I used to have so you know people used to tease me and John and or else your eyebrows would go up just that how loud

him and I were when we're communicating the one of the yeah I remember one was stone deaf and I was half stone deaf. So that was what I always remember about him on the other things. Yeah, I sure never held him back. I remember he'd always come up. And when he talked to him, you're right. You kind of lean off because he couldn't hear. And, but, you know, I never stopped him.

I mean, John loved life. He absolutely loved life. And I think for anyone out there, you know, he's a great example because he always, I have never seen John treat anyone with disrespect. He always respected it. You were the most important person. and when you'd come up and talk to him. I mean, you were hands down the most important person at that time,

and he always made you feel like that, you know, and he always, even though I would come to him with dumb ideas and, you know, idiotic theories, he never made me feel stupid. You know, he would always listen to it, and we would kind of reason it out. But John could always come down to your level, too. I mean, when I don't mean you, Tom, I mean, come down to my level. You know, I remember at the International Bigfoot Conference, he cracked up in a beer, brought me over a beer,

we sat down and just joked about different things. I mean, we're even talking about Bigfoot. You know, he just loved life. He really did. Oh, absolutely. You're lucky, though. You said it that way. Me, I got the old stern john.

It would be, Tom, Tom, Tom, Tom. That's just speculative. That's just speculative. And then he'd go into a big lecture. And I guess it was his way of berating me, getting me back on past. And it used to remind me of my grandfather. father how he did that he was so he had such tact and such respect and and integrity how he i guess

you know the way i felt at times when i was looking at him and he was going on one of his lectures to me corrected me or getting me on the path to me it was okay i'm getting in trouble from john but that's what he was you know so good at you know he was a very very very classy man and you know that's something that's rare in this day and age yeah it is It really is, and he'll definitely be missed. You know, it's, I'm sure I'm going to break down, but I miss him. You know, he was a good man. Oh, yeah, but he went out proud.

You know, he reached out to us last week. A lot of us, you know, in the last 24 hours or so here, you know, we see each other's notes. So you and, you know, Todd niece and others I've heard about, you know, myself included, we were communicating with them right up into the last few days here. And, you know, even Russell Accord there was talking to him the day just before he passed. So, you know, he always took that time right to the bitter end. But at the same turn, he was being our captain. He was telling us, don't lose the faith.

Don't learn. Don't lose your passion for what you need to do. And it's up to us all of us now to carry that torch. Have the integrity he had, you know, sure, rip each other a new one from time to time. but be like John Benderdagle and do it with tact class and integrity. And don't ever lose vision that we have a duty to do. And, you know, to him and others we've lost in the past and we're going to lose some more here. It's inevitable.

You know, we must always continue on. And, you know, the day will come and we'll be standing at those urns and those headstones and say, hey, look, here's a newspaper article, conclusive proof of the existence of North America's undiscovered grade eight, the title of your first book, John, bagged and tagged. And now it's got, it's even got a scientific name. That's what we need to look at now. Yeah, and a lot of people don't know how sick he actually was.

And, you know, I knew he had been sick for many years. And, you know, he, I don't think he really wanted it public. So I think everyone kind of respected that. And, but you never heard John complain. I never heard, I'm telling you, obviously on the air, you didn't hear him complain. But I talked to him many times off the air. never once did he ever complain about his sickness never once you know he would always ask how you were doing he would always ask how things are i remember before he would go in the air with me and

we would talk for you know half hour hour and he'd always want to know how i was doing you know he remembered the name of my dog um he you know he he always wanted to know how you were doing he never turned it about himself you know and he was sick john was really really sick people don't know that they hear him on the air he's his chipper self. But he was sick. He was really, really sick. And I just, you know, admire him.

You know, it's someone I strive to be like, but there's only one, John. You know, bar none, he was a true busher. You know, true bushers, you know, we go down, but we don't go down whining and bitching and moaning about it, you know, tight upper lip, you know, that's what he was all about, you know. His wife included, you know, Jones, such a dear, sweet person, you know, I remember going there. I guess it was about under a year ago. And, you know, that's, you know, when I'd found out that he was, you know, fighting to his cancer.

And, you know, she was, you know, you could see she was upset, but at the same turn, very, very strong. And, you know, my heart hurts for her, you know, she's lost her partner, a very good man, you know. But I'll stop by and go see the family there next time I'm Vancouver Island. Yeah, I'm sure she'd like that. And, you know, I feel bad. I left a message, but I just broke.

down in the message and I feel bad about it. But Joan is, you know, behind every good man is a good woman. And Joan definitely is. I've met her a few times. She's very sweet, very nice. And John will be missed. Yeah. You know, and it's up to, you know, guys like you and I and others that are, you know, getting the word out in the community about, you know, all the research that's going down. John's gone, but he's not gone. You know, he left us a legacy. He left us two books, you know, and we can't forget that, you know, especially for his friends. family, you know, especially his grandkids and Joan, his son, you know, don't forget, you know, get the word out there so that people still remember that, you know, you still can go to John's

website page and, you know, order his books and, you know, it helps the family, but at the same turn, it keeps his legacy going. That's why you wrote them. And we can't forget that, you know, those books are, you know, priceless, you know, a lot of knowledge, a lot of time, dedication, his passion and his love for finding out the truth behind the Bigfoot Sasquatch. So that's something I don't want anyone to forget. Yeah, no, he's gone, but he's not forgotten.

We definitely miss him. Thanks again for coming on, Tom. I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks a lot. Well, let's go out and bag and tag this thing on camera and video for John and others. Thank you very much, Wes. Appreciate this. Do you think it would be different for scientists if, let's say instead of Sasquatch,

we plugged in a tiger and we showed footprints from, Washington State. We showed footprints from British Columbia. We showed footprints from Ontario. We showed footprints from, and we had eyewitness reports of seeing this tiger. Do you think it's because it's more on the primate

side that they're unwilling? Do you think it's irrelevant that they probably wouldn't look into a tiger either? Yeah. No, I totally agree. I mean, the thing is you bring it a bit cat like that. Well, at least we've got, you know, cougars, mountain lions, we've got bobcats, you know. So, I mean, at least the group is represented here. You know, as far as primates, I mean, we're it.

We humans are considered to be it for North America. So here we are saying, actually, there's another primate here. You're non-human primate. But, you know, in that group hominoidia, more broadly the primates, we're saying, no, there's another primate here. It's living alongside. Well, that's part of the problem of that claim being perceived, is far-fetched. And there again, there's a wonderful area in philosophy of science called

prematurity in scientific discovery. Very briefly, a discovery is considered premature if there aren't a lot of links and steps leading up to it in generally available knowledge. Where you see, in 1958, there was Jerry Kruh with a Bigfoot cast suddenly. And in 1967, the Patterson Gimlin film equally suddenly. And, you know, then the media is saying, well, there's no background for this. Well, that's why the historical accounts are actually very, very important, saying, oh, no. First, there were these reports of a monster, and then that so-called monster becomes better described.

And you get people back in the 1800s saying, you know, it looked like a gorilla and like nothing else. That's an Oregon report from the Sixers River. And so, you know, I've got those in the book, and I'm working on another video now to show, this isn't actually a premature discovery. We were, if we were paying attention, and I don't want to fault anyone, but those reports languished. Well, you might say, and for a good reason, they didn't fit, you know. Anyway, but there was a lot of stuff leading up to Jerry crew in that first, Bigfoot, well, the first track and leading to the unfortunate, I call that unfortunate name Bigfoot.

into the Patterson Gimlin film. And of course, as we all know, and continue it. Well, next up on the show, I want to welcome Ron Moorhead. Ron, thanks for coming on. Thank you, Wes. I appreciate the opportunity. Yeah, no, I appreciate you being here. I know we're celebrating our friend.

I know it's a friendship you shared too as well with John. I always called him Doc. But, you know, John, I have many, many fond memories of him, and he meant the world to me as I know. know he did many people. But if you would, would you talk a little bit, Ron, about what John meant to you and maybe share any memories that you have of him? About John, and they didn't like him a lot.

But he was open-minded scientists, and it's so difficult to find nowadays, but he would listen to you. And when we were in the Moscow, we're a museum of national science over there. And they took us into Siberia, and we just had a good time, streets of Moscow and going in the backwoods of Southwark. Liberia and looking for the wild man. They call it a little. We, we, uh, it's going to be this.

Anyway. Yeah. No, everyone knows now. It's like, how it all was going. He said, well, you know,

they keep you at this level spot with drugs, everything they can to a certain spot. And then, and that doesn't work anymore. You just kind of fall off the clip, and that's it. And, but we got to remember the job's not really gone.

As long as his memories were this, and a lot of us have had with him, and he's just a great guy, and I got to listen to him. Just unusual type of scientists. You don't usually find them. They usually shut the door when you say big foot or something. But he was into it, and he knew what we, that's what his quest was,

trying to establish these creatures. But he's just, he just went to another spot, changed. He's going there sooner or later. Oh, by the way, he knows what's going. Yeah. No, and that's the part that makes you feel better about the whole thing, you know, is knowing you'll see him again, but it kind of sucks not having them around. You know, I think you hit it right on the head, Ron.

John would always treat you like you were a colleague. He would always treat you like you were a scientist at his level. And you were never at his level. I mean, he was just, you know, he was on a different planet as far as intelligence goes, as far as science goes. But he never, he always made you feel like you were the most. important person in the room. And you're right, I can't think of anyone that would ever say anything bad about him. You know, it's, uh, the last time I saw him in person was at the international

Bigfoot conference too as well. And the thing about John is he would always come down to your level. You know, he would always crack open a beer, sit down with you and BS. And, you know, you could tell dirty jokes and he would laugh at him. You know, he was never above, uh, anyone else. He was always, um, even though I think deep down, all of us felt like John was kind of above all of us. He never made you feel that way. He would always come down and be at, like, my level and, you know, listen to my dumb theories, kind of like you, Ron, he would listen to my dumb theories, listen to my dumb ideas, and he never made you feel stupid.

You know, he always made you feel like, yeah, that's a great idea. I really like him. He was just such a thing. I can't imagine anybody saying that. He's just right there. And he's open-minded scientist. I love that. I just love it.

Yeah. he's a giant that'll definitely be missed. Do you have any fond memories of them or anything that you can think of when you're hanging out with them? I do. Well, you know, Russians like their vodka. And, of course, John and I was just a little bit stronger. Yeah. But we just had a good time.

All of a sudden, John was missing, and I thought, where's John? You know, and we started looking for him. Well, I want to tell you where we found it. We found him. It was really cold outside that night, too. But it was right after dinner. We did have a dinner in Moscow with the signature of Moscow, actually. But this was a dinner over in Siberia out of the village we was at.

Just a great time, just a fun time. Hats off to Eagle, and they just gave us the red carpet treatment. They did us really well, and they enjoy their luck. And if you've got it, you always have to share it with them. I think their respect because they think it's an insult if you don't. Yeah. We have fun, a lot of fun. And then a good, interesting times, too.

He's looking for a, oh, a Yeti, they said, was in the cave way back. So they took us across these rivers and launched a truck and got us back to us. And we had to hike a ways to get to this cave, but supposedly these shore people, S-H-O-R, have been seeing the Yeti around there. So we're in a cave. And we found some tracks, but we couldn't attest that they were Yeti tracks because and John that we just couldn't. Someone leads you to some evidence.

That's kind of suspicious already. And not that it wasn't, but you couldn't say it was, because if he'd found it yourself, then you would have known. My good memory with John was probably over in Siberia. That was the funest time anyway. And again, it's a great memory, and it'll always be with us. That's the thing about making memory. You want to make good ones.

Because if you don't make good ones, that's all you got when you get older. Here's your memories. Yeah. No, and I can agree more. And, yeah, those Russians love their vodka, but they definitely know their vodka, don't they? Oh, but they do. That's it. Of course, they only live to be in the 30s or 40s, except for you all these other people.

No, they do love their vodka. Yeah, well, I'm glad John got to go to that. You know, he was always kind of a shableness. shining star in the Bigfoot world. You know, I never heard John say anything bad about anyone. Even people, he had every right to say bad things about. He never did. And he always treated people with respect. And that's something I always appreciative of you, Ron, too. You always treat people with respect. You never down-talked to anyone. You never, you know, and it's, John was that way. He was willing to hear anyone out as far as their encounter, their theory. You know, and he was

such a bright soul in this big foot world. You know, the big four world didn't deserve to have John, in my opinion, because he was such a shooting star. And it's just a sad day. It really is a sad day. For us, he's probably in a different realm now, different dimensions, and his energy's left. And he knows all the answers now. And at least that's how I see it. And religion might call it having quantum physics calls it dimensions. Yeah. It's there and we'll see him on the other side.

We're all going to get there sooner later. Yeah, wherever he's at, I hope he's holding a drink for me. And when I get there, I'll sit down and have a drink with him, you know? Yeah, there you go. There you go. But I'm sure if he could see us right now, he probably is. He may be around us, but he's just a good man. I got a new one or whatever.

It's just a good man. We need more of him like that. Yeah, I always say, you know, he strived to be like John, but there's only one John. You know what I mean? You can't copy him. There's only one John. John, his wife, is great too.

And I've seen him before International Bigfoot Corporation Sea Monkey with Todd, Tom Seawig, and we went up into Canada. And we stopped by and seen him because he lived in Canada. got to talk to him then. He was just as spy and gay, you wouldn't think anything was wrong with him. But we all knew then, and we wanted to talk to him and see him

and talk to Joan, too. But he was just as cordial as anything. He brought us a few appetizers and just, you know, loved it. Yeah, and that's the thing I always admire about him is if you didn't know he was sick and you talked to him, you would have no clue how sick this man actually was.

And he never, he never, He never complained about being sick. I never once, and I talked to him many times off the air, and he never once ever complained about how sick he was. He never complained about anything. And so, you know, in my mind, I always thought John would live forever. I thought the doc would live forever because he was such a giant, you know, and everything he did. And he just never seemed like he was going to die. You know what I mean?

He didn't. And that was the science which he was involved in, obviously. And we all are, but it couples out with spirituality, how they are on the same plane. They're synonymous. And I hope we had a chance to read it. But it puts it all together, I think, and makes you understand that energy, according to Stephen Hawkins, too, doesn't just die or can't die. That gives us all a better feeling and a better thing about passing on, because that's what it is. It's not dying. It's passing on.

And you're... Yeah. Well, let's hope he's up there watching down. He'd probably laugh at all of us for shedding tears over him and boo-hooing over him. John wasn't that type of guy. You know, he would say, just keep, you know, forget about this, was doing an encounter show for, you know, and I could just hear him right now, but he meant so much to so many people. And, you know, I mean, I know some of the audience didn't get to know him,

but he really was a good man, one of the best human beings I ever met. And Ron, I appreciate you coming on and saying a few words about John. It goes on afterwards. And that's the other side. So I'm happy for him in a way because he doesn't have to stress anymore. But it's a good man, good man. Yeah, thank you again, Ron. Okay, Wes.

Catch up with you later. Thank you. I wanted to ask you about your own sighting. And I've never talked to you about your own personal siding. And as I was telling you, the audience, this show is mainly about people's sightings. There's a lot more I want to get to beyond the siding. But I wanted to ask you about your siding. What were you out doing?

And then for the audience, what did you see? Well, it wasn't a great sighting. And that's why I don't talk about it. I find the other evidence like the track photographs and track cast. And even I witnessed descriptions and drawings more compelling. But, yeah, anyway, it was, oh, gee, about 2007, Adrian, Erickson had been sponsoring a project in Kentucky, invited me there saying, John, if you stayed for a week, I think you might see this.

There's some kind of semi-habituated Sasquatches on this piece of land. Dennis Foal is there. Lila Had's cheek is there, a scientific advisor. So I did spend pretty much a week, and around the middle of the week. And they said, oh, you should come out. There seems to be one standing in a fence roll, you know, kind of looking out over the field to seeing what's going on. So we went out and we could see from the house, actually, out the window.

Yeah, there was some upright creature in the fence. When I say creature, because it was gently rocking side to side. It was pretty obscured by vegetation, but I could see a shoulder and what appeared to be a head. And there was this rocking motion. And then the woman there who had been habituating them by feeding them, And she went out with some pancakes and, you know, spoke in the high-pitched voice, which seemed to reassure Sasquatches in the past. And they thought it might emerge. Well, it didn't.

It kind of got spooked, actually, and turned and walked into the forest. But as it turned and walked, the big arm came up swinging backwards as it kind of took off. So that was probably the best part of it for me. But I mean, well, I was going to say there's better. stuff on these YouTube clips, but of course, you need to have the backstory. And there's always this fear with, I mean, some very convincing YouTube clips, but, you know, as soon as a, and I understand why a scientist might want to come forward and say, gee, that looks pretty interesting. And then someone's going to say, ah, gotcha, that was my brother-in-law, da-da-da.

You know, so we do need more complete, well, what we've come to call the backstory for these things and to know who saw what, what they were doing, and what were the circumstances. Well, next up on the show, I want to welcome Derek Randalls from the Olympic Project. And I know we're remembering our friend, John Bennernoggle. Derek, how are you? I'm good, well, how are you? Oh, I'm doing pretty good. I'm doing pretty good.

I know we're remembering our friend, our dear friend, John Bennernoggle. And if you would, would you talk a little bit about what John meant to you and then maybe share any memories that you have of him? You bet, you bet. John met a lot to me. I wish I would have known him. I mean, I was friends with John. He came on a few of our expeditions.

Actually, he met him in 2000. When he came to my house, he came with Grover Grants. And apologies. He came with Grover and Jeff and John Green. And that's when I met him. So that was 2000. We were looking at this. That's the first time I'd ever met him and just kind of hung out with him and realized what an amazing man he is.

He was just the most nice, humble guy you'd ever want to run into. And incredibly intelligent. So I met him then. And then since then, he's been on a few of our expeditions. We've gone out in the field a few times and got to know him pretty well. And yeah, he's a huge inspiration in my research and actually in life. He's just the relationship he had with his wife. was second to none.

I mean, they just, they loved each other to pieces. And it's just the way he took on life. And, you know, it's kind of funny. I put a post up on Facebook yesterday of one of the memories that sticks out in my head so much. A few years back, we were on an expedition. And I was guiding a group up this mountainside, about 45 minutes, you know, pretty vigorous up to a hike.

And on this particular day, we had a guide assistant at the back of the back, and I was in the front of the back, and John was somewhere. John and his wife were somewhere in the middle of the pack. We're hiking up this mountain, and I always have a tendency to hike too fast. My wife's always yelling at me because I kind of leave the pack. I don't mean to. I just, it's just my pace that I go.

And on this day, I knew that we had a guy assistant behind us, and so I just started hiking fast and faster and got to the destination and didn't bother looking back because I knew the group was in good hands. And got to the destination and turned around, and John was like two feet behind me, almost scared me. and he wasn't, you know, he wasn't very winded. And I was just blown, blown away. And I'll never forget that moment.

You know, he's sitting there smiling, and it's like, wow. He was just, he was a strong man. He was just strong in heart, strong in body. And, you know, what a loss to the Bigfoot community. What a loss to, you know, it's any heart. You know, there's other people in the Bigfoot world. He was even closer to. I know him and Paul Graves were very close.

He just touched everybody in such a positive. way. I've never heard anybody say one bad thing about it. There was just, you know, no negative news to report on the guy. It was just, he was just an inspiration and somebody you kind of want to live like. And he can be missed. He can be missed big time. And he was a huge contributor. One of the biggest contributors to the big foot world and the research world. Yeah, it's been a rough day. Yeah, no.

Yeah, no, it has been. And anyone that's been out with Derek, I've been. been out with Derek, and he's not a man you can keep up with. You know, he's like a goat on a mountain. Good luck trying to keep up with him. So that's impressive that John kept up. It doesn't shock me one bit that John kept up with you, but it's impressive, you know, and you're right. John was so humble. He was so kind. He was someone I would love to be like. And I, you know, I've said it a million times. We try and copy and try and be John, but you can't be John. There's only one John. And he's, and you're right. I've never heard any of. one saying anything bad about him. Everyone loved him. Everyone loved him.

A full of information and he was almost like a, what it came to new evidence if we were sharing something with him or whatnot, he would just get so excited, almost like a kid, you know, and just to his excitement level. And he never lost his enthusiasm, never lost his excitement right to the end. You know, he just, he stayed just as excited in that, that group email that he sent out to everybody, you know, still knowing that he was going to be passing within know, a couple weeks. He still wanted people to send them big footstep. And to me, it was just remarkable.

I mean, just, wow. He was so devoted to the subject. And I just, a big regret is, you know, that us researchers out here in the field couldn't have given him more before he passed because he was one of the people that it would have been incredible, you know, more really good evidence for him to see and absorb and enjoy it before he passed.

and kind of sucks that we didn't. But it's a hard subject. And he just, he always kept a great attitude. Yeah, he was just a huge inspiration. Yeah. And I know he really wanted this proven.

And what I always loved about John, no matter how many scientists laughed in his face, it didn't matter. He would still push it, you know. And one thing John always said to me is he said, you know, Wes, now later in my life, I'm doing this for the eyewitnesses. The people have seen this.

and are called crazy, or called hoaxers, or called liars, or called this, how much were you drinking? He said, I'm doing it for them, and we will prove this, and the scientific community will respond to this. And he meant that even to the day he died. And not just Bigfoot, the world lost John.

The world is a sadder place without John. Bigfoot aside, the world is a sadder place without him. Boy, you got that right. You know, it really is. And when you look at the amount of, or I should say the lack there of, of scientists and biologists that get on board and actually pay attention to us, researchers, listen to us, go out in the field with us. I mean, that is a short list. That's a super short list. Yeah. He was on that list, and he made no excuses, and he didn't bow to general science.

He just, he knew the evidence was there. He knew it was compelling. He knew there was something to this. he just went forward. And, man, he's just, he's just going to be missed. You know, he was just, he was the best. Yeah, he will be missed. And, you know, one thing, Derek, that I always respected of John.

I mean, you knew John really well. John was probably one of the most intelligent people I'd ever met in my life. I mean, as far as an IQ scale, him and I were apples and oranges. He was way above. But he would always talk to me like we were colleagues. He would always talk to me like I was a fellow scientist. even though I was far from it. You know, I'm just some dumb guy that would come to him with some crazy theories or, you know,

talk to him about encounters or, and he always made me feel like that him and I were equals. Even though we weren't, I mean, he knew it and I knew we weren't equals. John was way above me, but he always treated me like we were equals. And I always respected that about him. You know, beyond everything else you love about the man, I always respected that about him. Yeah. And the fact that he was, and you're exactly right. I mean, that is a great point.

He would talk to, you know, as researchers and enthusiasts with the same deal that I think that he would talk to a fellow scientist or biologist, which was just amazing. And it actually, it brings up another, you know, if I've got time, another quick story, when it really speaks out in my mind. Yeah, of course. In 2000, when I met him, it was after that, it was on during the scutum thing. We brought the cast to my house, and I knew Jeff Feldman. because I had been working with him, but I didn't know John Green at the time.

And I knew Grover, but I did not know Mr. Bendernagle. And so all these guys convergent on my house. So they went in my dining room, and I wish I could have recorded this, because it was Grover and John, John Green, and Grover, and they were bickering, like a married couple. And then Dr. Meldron was sitting there and Ron Brown, and they were all going back forward, and then just watching the bickering, watching the dynamic. I mean, it was just, it was, but they were, they were all going.

And then John kind of calmed them down, John Bitternail calmed them down, and they all started talking. And they started talking, for a lack of a better word, academically, or, I don't even know that's the right word, but they were, they were going back discussing theory and discussing, you know, what should happen with the scook and fast. And they just took the conversation to a much more academic level. And I'm standing there, you know, trying to join in, you know, there's just no way. I mean, I felt like Fred's Flintstone. And so I'm just, I think, you know, Bendernego looked over at me, and I think he sensed it, you know, because I can't, when those guys get going and they're doing their science speak and they're talking up on higher levels, you know, giant words and things like that.

You know, I just decided, you know, the best way I could utilize myself was to go in the kitchen and make them a pizza, which is what I did. And when they were done talking, John came into the kitchen and he kind of, you know, dumbed down the conversation a little bit for me so I could kind of understand. what they were talking about. I don't know, man. It's just,

those two, those two of the most amazing memories that stick out my mind with him. And like I said, you know, there's some researchers

that knew him better that spent more time with him. I know this has got to hit Paul Graves really hard. They were very close. And, you know, Shane knew John pretty well.

And, you know, I don't know, it's just, it's a sad day. It's a sad day, but you know what? He's in a better place. I know he had a very good life.

He had an outstanding, stellar marriage. And so I know he was very happy, and I think, you know, other than the battle he was going through, he was, I don't think he was, I don't, I just think he was a very happy man. He had a happy marriage, he had a happy life. I was very fortunate to get out the field with him several times, and he just, he just went into the brush like it wasn't even there. And I just had so much respect for him. Yeah, he met so much to so many people. And, you know, Joan, his wife, I've met her a couple times.

She's very sweet, very nice. But you're right. It was a beautiful thing to see them. You know, thank God she was able to give us John his time. You know what it's like being married. A lot of times your wife doesn't, you know. And she always was very generous with John. And John was very generous with his time.

And he'll be missed. The world is, it's a major loss to the world. Yeah, I agree. I agree. And, you know, as far as, you know, Forget about Bigfoot for a minute. They think it just give life lessons on how to treat your spouse and how to be married. Because, wow, it was so fun to watch those two together.

I mean, you talk about they were in love. I mean, they were just flat out in love. And the respect the way they talked to each other, it was just cool. Super, super cool. Oh, it is. And like I said, John will be missed. He was Bigfoot aside, if you want to learn how to become a better human being, try and copy John. and you can become a better human being if you copy what he did.

But again, there's only one John. And it really is sad. And John has definitely missed. But Derek, I appreciate you coming on and just saying a few words about what John meant to you and sharing some of the stories about John. Well, you know what, Wes, I'm very honored that you asked me. And I hope a lot of people get to voice their memories and experiences with John. And I know Shane's got some really good ones too.

And like I said, Paul Graves and David Ellis, there's a lot of people that spent a lot of time with him. And everybody kind of yielded his expertise and his wisdom and his brain because, man, did he have one? He really did. But he just had, like we said earlier, you know, I had just such a way of not necessarily dumbing it down, but just talking to everybody, you know, regardless of what their skill set was. You know, the way he used to talk to my son, Wyatt was just amazing. you know, why I loved him. He was just,

just a what a guy. And, you know, something hit me today. After you and I spoke initially, right, as right as Shane and I were coming out of the wood, in the world of Bigfoot, yeah,

it's dysfunctional, and there's a lot of crap going on, you know, this, that, the other thing. But if you look at the, you know, some of the top people

in the Bigfoot world, such as Dr. Meldrum, Bob Gimland, John Bendernagle, and I tell you what, there's some seriously classy men

that you know because the same thing struck me with with dr bennanagle as it does with meldrum and with bob gilin. You know you spend time with these guys and you kind of kind of leave it you leave that time wishing you were kind of more like them you know and so the one it's really cool that in the big foot world is screwed up as it can be sometimes that three of the top people there are just such wonderful humble intelligent nice people you know it just kind of for some reason they just kind of fell on. my head when I was just thinking about cool John as I started thinking about how cool Bob is and how nice and wonderful Dr. Meldram is and it's just we're pretty lucky that some of the top minds in this field are just wonderful people.

John was certainly a wonderful man but he's going to be missed. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. He'll definitely be missed. Well, thank you, brother. Oh, you bet. Well, I appreciate, like I said, I'm very honored to you asked for me to talk about this. So very much so I appreciate it.

And I wanted to ask you as a wildlife biologist, because I always tell people don't feed these things. And, you know, I don't have their credentials to really say one way or another. I can just tell you what seems common sense to me is not to feed them. And it seems like there's a lot of bad stories when people stop feeding these things around their property. And I've had a lot of witnesses on that have been feeding them. And then all of a sudden they stop and things go bad really quick. it seems to anger the Sasquatch. They seem to have very short tempers.

But as a wildlife biologist, would you recommend that someone feed these things if they see them around their property? Well, actually, feeding of any wildlife, of course, is not encouraged. But, I mean, to me, this is kind of a special situation where I think habituation is the, well, I mean, Jane Goodall was actually criticized for this for feeding chimpanzees to kind of encourage them to hang around the camp. for more observations, and it worked out. But that was controversial. I think it's a tool, and I think we're stuck in limbo here. You know, poor Grover Kranz, he suggested we, well, a lot of people say, we're not going to get anywhere without a type specimen. Grover suggested collecting a type specimen was strongly, strongly critic. It meant, it meant

basically shooting one. His point was, once we have one, we'll then get protection for all trust of the population, but that wasn't good enough. Okay, we're getting good video clips, you know, and people are saying hoax, still saying hoax. We're getting some really good track cast, whereas people are understanding the need to document cast, and I've been trying to actually purchase, acquire some of these now, and I have been doing so. So I still think that's pretty good evidence. But anyway, habituation does provide an opportunity for good filming, for sound, recording, for recording tracks, for observation, either from a blind and, you know, the various

trail cams and other cams and just cams and monitors. You know, so with the technology, you know, is widely available and coming down in price. If someone would do it in kind of a disciplined manner, you know, I mean, you know, maybe putting out foods that are somewhat natural for the Sasquatch. And I think it's quite possible to develop, I don't know if you'd call it rapport, but I mean, These are primates. They are not unintelligent. They're very intelligent.

And I think they would respond to what would be a positive overture, such as supplying food. Well, next up on the show, I want to welcome Shane Corson from the Olympic Project. Shane, how are you? Doing well, Wes. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for coming on. And I'll tell a story about John. A while back, all of us kind of knew John had cancer.

I mean, Shane knew it, I knew it, but we all, I think, out of respect, kind of didn't talk about it publicly. And I remember Shane came to me and he said, hey, you should have John on your show, you know, because he's not going to be around much longer. And I gave Shane a really hard time. Shane knows the story. I mean, he was there. I gave Shane a really hard time. And I was like, well, maybe he doesn't want to talk about Bigfoot. Maybe he wants to die in peace. And then I got to thinking about it. And I called John. And he was like, yeah, I absolutely want to come on. And I just want to thank you, man, for really pushing me to have John on because, you know, I thought someone dying of cancer, probably the last thing I want to do is talk about Bigfoot. And he would always call me and he would always say, hey, can I come on the show? I know on the Christmas show, he was like, hey, can I come on?

And I was like, yeah, you're freaking John Benner-Nigel, man. You can come on the show anytime you want. But I know it's a weekend of remembering our friend. And Shane, if you would, would you talk about what John meant to you? and then maybe share any memories that you have of them. Yeah, absolutely. First off, Wes, I want to thank you for reaching out to John. You had the right platform, and John needed to be heard,

and you did him justice. You really did. I know he made a lot of really good contacts from your interview, and I know that I know your heart was right, and I know that John really enjoyed being on your show. And so thank you for reaching out, Tim. And now we have this even more of a legacy for John Bernagle. And people can go back and listen to that show.

It was fantastic. So thank you. John, he, yeah, John, you know, was a mentor to many. A mentor to me, he kind of, you know, as much as he could took me a little bit under his wing. You know, have you ever had a question for the guy? he was always there for you. John's been researching the Sasquatch subject since 1963, and one of his biggest goals in life was to make this subject less taboo within the scientific community.

I think he really did a number on that. I think he really did make the subject less taboo. To his credit, he's got a lot more scientists talking about. this subject. I hope down the road, John's legacy will be that he made this subject less taboo, and he led by example, and I think he's done that. So it's one of the things about John, you know, he was always energetic, honest. He had such a great sense of humor. He was devoted husband, a friend of many, always smiling. He's, you know, witty wise, passionate about life, passionate about the Sasquot Shubbik and passionate about sharing his passion with his,

his, his colleagues and his friends. And so what a living legacy. When it comes to Bigfoot research, it just does get any better than John Benner-Nor-N-Ale. And he's something to mimic and look up to, especially with him having, you know, this academic value, this, you know, PhD, putting his neck on the line. And that's that's that is that's real bravery right there. And just an amazing man. And I do have a story. You know, when I first met John many years ago, you know, we, we had a brief conversation. I introduced myself as Shane Corson, introduced himself.

And probably a year went by before we bumped into each other again at a another bigfoot event. And I was shocked that he came up to me. I didn't come up to him. He came up to me and said, it's Shane, Shane, right? I said, yeah, it's Shane. And I was just for it. He remembered my name.

And that meant the world to me because I'm nobody. And a legend in my mind, you know, this giant in this field. And he remembered my name. And that always stood out. And one of the things, another quick story, you know, during one of our early on conversations, I bought John a beer and we had a great conversation and we kind of were winding it down and he said, you know what, let's catch up soon and the next beer is on me. Well, over the years, we had lots of interaction. And though he'd always say,

I owe you a beer, I owe you a beer. And I said, John, you do. I want that beer. Well, you know, unfortunately, that didn't come to pass. I never got that beer. But I did. always get John. And that's worth everything in the world. And I know one day I'll get that beer from John, and I look forward to it. And for your listeners, Wes, I want to tell them, hey, if you don't know who John Bendernernernernerner is, go back and listen to your interview with John. And check out some of John's books.

I mean, check out the Discovery of Sasquatch, the North American ape, the Sasquatch. I mean, two fantastic books. He spent many, many years putting these together. These aren't like your average Bigfoot book where people can slap it together in a year. John poured his heart and soul into these books, his knowledge, his field research, his collaborations into these books, and they took many, many years to put together. And if you're an enthusiast, a researcher, someone that just appreciates great writing, intellect, those should be on yourself, and those should be on yourself, and you should know those books.

But John's legacy will live on through many, many people, not just the big for world. You know, John was a classic wildlife biologist, and so he left his mark in many sectors of the science. Yeah, I'm going to miss him too. I know the first time I met John was actually at Beachfoot, and it was you, me, and Woody. And we sat down, we interviewed John. You know, here's a wildlife biologist, a doctor. and for a brief moment I felt like a real talk show host. You know, I felt like a real legitimate, you know, podcaster for a moment because I had Dr. John

Benernoggle on. And John was larger than life. If he met him in a person, he was larger than life. He loved everyone. He was so humble. And it's like I've been saying, it's not so much the Bigfoot World. The world in general has lost an icon. And there's many times where it may be a lot of the world.

mainly because of you, Shane, I became really good, really close to John. Him and I would talk all the time. He would call me up and say, you know, I would send him different track casts, or I would send him different encounter stories, or I'd send him links to the show. And he always listened to it, and he would always give me his feedback on it. But it went beyond that. John would always want to know how you were doing. He was always worried about you, and not so much to himself.

And here's a guy dying of cancer, and I know I've broken down a couple times during the show, but John really was loved by many people, and he was a good friend, and he'll be sorely missed, sorely missed. Yeah, indeed. You're making me tear really right. John, one of the best for everybody. Not a mean bone in that man's body. And, you know, like I said, his legacy will live on through us and through the many people he

touched. you know, he's a, he's a pioneer in this world in the Bigfoot subject. And I'll be, I'll be damned if, if I do that harm or don't do it justice. So it makes me want to do better. And I mean, John wanted me, makes me want to be a better person, you know. So, yeah, I'm really glad that you got to know, John, like I've known him and came close with him and got to share stuff with him. I know I guaranteed that meant a lot to John. I guaranteed him.

A lot to his wife, too. So, uh, kudos to you. Yeah, his wife was the best. And, you know, I don't think John knew what a podcast was. I mean, he was probably the smartest man I knew, but I don't think he understood what this was. And it wasn't until he was on the show. He started getting tons of email. And I think John found value in, in the podcast.

And I loved having him on. I loved talking to him. I loved, um, I loved him. And there's very few people I'll say that about in this world. John I would have taken a bullet for. And he'll definitely be missed. Definitely be missed. He's something I think all of us strive to be when I think of myself and I fall short of it many times.

I know I can be a dick and I can be this and I can be that. But if I can be half a man John is, I'll be happy with that. You know, if I can get to be half the man he was, I'll be okay with that. Yeah, I echo your sentiments there. If I could be a quarter of the man John was and I fall short on a regular basis, but I'll tell you what, I've never seen John fall short. And that's just the character of the man. You know, he's a dying breed nowadays.

And unfortunately, he's no longer with us in person. But I said, he'll live on. And I know many other individuals, friends and family will do their damnedest to make sure that he's not forgotten and that his work will continue in a positive fashion. And I'm sure glad he got on your podcast because I just know that I know the connections that were made. And I just know he loved, he was very passionate about talking about the subject. And so what he actually went, but it's a great way to go out.

No, it is sad to see him go. I always thought John would live forever just because the way he acted. You know, he never acted sick, even though you and I both know how sick. he was. He never put on that persona of being sick, and he'll definitely be missed. But Shane Corse and Olympic Project Monster X Radio, thank you for taking the time to come on and just remember our friend John and share the memories of them. Thank you very much. Thanks, Wes. Thanks for having me on for doing this. I really appreciate it. I really honestly can't wait to listen to some of the others that you've had on talk about, John. He touched a lot of people,

so thank you. I wanted to ask you, you know, being a wildlife biologist, I know when you do, I believe it's called the Wildlife Survey, as you mentioned, the tracks are very important. And as you look at, one of the things, it was that professor that actually brought it to my attention. And it was right in front of my face the whole time. I don't know why it never crossed my mind. But if you listen to people's descriptions of Sasquatch, I can tell you from interviewing so many witnesses, there seems to be different types. Like here in the Pacific Northwest, where we're at, John, people will describe more of an ape type creature. If you start to go down south and the southwest

of the United States, a lot of times people will say it looked very chimp-like in the face. It looked very chimp-like in the face. It had some human features, but it looked very chimp-like. And then in some areas, people will say, well, it looked more human-like in the face. But if you look at the track cast, and maybe I'm off on this, but if you look, look at the trackcast, they look very human, just on a larger scale. But the descriptions of what people describe seem to be more of a non-human primate. And I realize this is kind of an open-ended question, but in your professional opinion, what do you think Sasquatch is?

Well, I've had to back off, you know, because I was quite convinced John Green thought it was an ape. Grover Krantz thought it was an ape. In my first book, the title was The Sasquatch, North America's Great Ape. John Green said, oh, great title. I wish I'd thought of that. But I backed off because that turned out to be quite divisive. Just what you're describing, there's a lot of investigators. There's a lot of investigators.

Say, no way is this an ape? This is definitely human. Well, I've got a research video I'm working on because the Great Ape hypothesis is quite helpful. You know, it explains just a lot of the physical, anatomical features of the Sasquatch, but some people find that quite offensive, and this is kind of a cultural thing. Now, physical anthropologists, that's why we're good to get them on side because they, and so have to be careful here, but from anatomical point of view, there is kind of a gradation, you know, you've got an upright great ape and an upright human, we've got these prominent shoulders, you know.

Now the great apes tend not to walk bipedally, not habitually, and yes, their great toe tends to diverge, unlike the human great toe and the Sasquatch great toe, which tend to be lined up with the others. So it does share anatomical attributes, physical attributes, of both apes and humans. And this is problematic. Then you got people saying, oh, the missing link, well, gee, you sort of don't want to use provocative language. like that, because first of all, it brings up Piltdown Man, which was a huge embarrassment in physical anthropology for about 40 years when it looked like the missing link had been discovered and turned out to be a hoax. So it's tricky. And, you know, I'm doing, maybe it's kind of what you were describing her. I'm trying to say, okay, let's just take this evidence, take a very conservative interpretation. Let's try not to jump to conclusions and try to just look at in terms

of other mammals. And see, to me, that, it seemed easier to propose an upright great ape in North America than some kind of human. But that's met with resistance. So I don't know.

And next up on the show, I want to welcome Richard Riola. As we remember our friend, John Benner-Noggle, and it's a weekend of remembering him and what a great human being he was. Richard, welcome to the show, man. Thank you so much for coming on.

Wow, is this my first time ever being on Sasquatch Chronicles? It is. It is, man. Thank you for being here. Oh, you're more than welcome, man. If you would, would you talk a little bit? I know you knew John. You had interviewed him, and he was beloved by everyone.

But if you would, would you talk about maybe what John meant to you personally and then talk about any memories that you have that you want to share with the audience? Yeah, I absolutely do have some memories. He meant a lot to me. His credentials, his serious approach, his note taking on Sasquatch, his books, his very presence in this field of such crazy circus-like behavior was a breath of fresh. air to have him around. Dr. Bendernoggle gave us something different. It was like a grandfather warmth. And I met him at Beachfoot four years ago, and I wanted to show him my Sasquatch Bigfoot DNA collecting kit. In fact, I have a video of it where I show it to him. And I wanted to present it to

him in a way where if he had any critiques, he could give me, this kit was bad, if it was good. And he loved it. He thought I did a really good job assembling a forensic kit to collect Bigfoot DNA. And granted, I had Dr. Disattel and, of course, archaeologist Kathy Strain, helped me assemble this kit. Nonetheless, it was my Bigfoot pride and joy. And that's one of my favorite videos is showing it to him and getting his seal of approval because we all want to be approved in the world of Bigfoot in some form or another. I want to be the best funny comedy, YouTube, Bigfoot show you know west you are the best uh bigfoot podcast hands down and we all want approval from our peers and people that we look up to and i received that from dr bendernoggle and he even said you know

after hours with richter my show was the number one bigfoot webcast i thought that was awesome you know tammy murray my co-host uh totally relished in that moment as well that we spent with him talking by the river. That's my personal favorite memory of him. I do have a recent moment with Dr. Bindernoggle that I found to be very surprising.

Not many things surprise me in life. And the fact that he had watched my show off the Richter, and he loved it, and he enjoyed my sense of humor, and he thought that the field needed my critical sense of humor and joking around.

And he had asked me to draw images for his forthcoming book and that he was going to compensate me for it. And I told him, no, no, no, no, you're not going to pay me nothing. No, no, no, no, I'll do this for you for free. And unfortunately, this did not happen because this was in September and now he has passed. And I don't know if the book is going to continue. I hope so. I was talking with Todd Nice about, you know, maybe we can somehow work together and

having his final piece of work come to be published. to fruitation you know what i mean let's get it out there do whatever it takes so i don't know where things are with that i know todd nice was willing to um contribute and help get this out there so you know the man might be gone but his words will always be with us and you know no work should go unfinished and i believe we have the ability and the respect and the due diligence to take his work to the next level and get that third book published and give him the respect that he deserves because not many in the real of bigfoot deserves respect and he was one of them so yeah yeah it's true it's it's definitely a sad day without him and i've already said it on the show a million times and

i'll say it again it's not so much the big four world's lost a huge icon but the world in general has lost a good man and um he did kind of have that grandfatherly You know, he always wanted to know how you were doing. He always wanted, he was always, he made you feel like you're the most important guy in the room. And he would always talk to you that way. He will be missed. He will be missed. I loved him. There's nothing I can say bad about him. I absolutely loved him. And I wish more people were like him in the Big Fort world. But as I said a million times, there's only one, John. You can't, you can try and copy them. And I would recommend people try and copy him. But you're, you're not. You're, you're You're not going to, there's only one John. Right. He was a one of a kind. He broke the mold. I don't know if there was one thing that Dr. Bender Nagel was the word, I don't use the word angry.

He was annoyed that his scientific peers never took his work seriously. And he's done two books. And it was his second book that he was most proud of. And because, as we know, the scientist. world and even the entire world as a whole thinks bigfoot is a joke that's a fact though we don't like it it's the truth and dr benedanago believed he had put so much um critical analysis and thought into the topic of this creature being possibly real by the reports by the footprints etc etc and he never received uh the respect from his peers in fact that's what was

his third book was going to be about. And at the International Bigfoot Conference that what Russell Accord put on in Kennewick this past year, that was Dr. Bender Noggle's presentation. And he asked me to record it. And those of your listeners that are listening right now, you can go on my YouTube channel and watch Dr. Bender Nagle's final presentation. And it's about this book that he was working on and the lack of recognition he had received from his scientific peers, which is a travesty, you know, so.

Yeah, it is. And I'll post that up on the blog if that's all right with you, Richter. Oh, yeah, absolutely. All embedded up there so people can see it. And you're right. John was always one of those, you know, because I've heard most of the guys to get up there and talk. And it's like, oh, I've heard his speech before. I've heard his before.

I'll skip that one. And it's like, oh, the docks up there. And it was the only one I actually broke away from to go and watch because I really wanted to see what he was going to say. and he had such an enthusiasm for life. He had such an enthusiasm for a Sasquatch. He had such an enthusiasm for anything. You know, and I remember when I talked to him about my encounter, he remembered it.

And it blew me away. I mean, he knew it. And that was just John. I mean, you could have a conversation with him and briefly mention your dog. And the next time he saw him, he would be like, hey, how's your dog doing? You know, last time we talked. And I'm like, God, how does this guy have this memory? Because I can't tell you what happened yesterday.

And this guy can remember conversations from like a year ago. And, you know, it's a sad day. He's loved and he's gone, but he's not forgotten. You know, I just appreciate the fact that you come on, Richter, and say a couple words about what John meant to you and your memories of them. And, you know, I want to do a tribute and send him out the right way. And you do my best at it anyway. And I know John's probably smiling down right now, you know,

and I don't know what else to say, you know. Yeah, you know, we're losing the greats. And you and I are in positions where we get to meet these people and get to know them on a different level. And like you post it on Facebook, it's hard when you lose a hero, when you get to know your heroes. And, you know, just the fact that he even knew me and appreciated me means a lot to me, you know, because I admit I would like to be, you know, know, receiving love from people that I look up to. And, and I definitely received that from him. I get it from Bob Gilin, you know, and oh my gosh, I love that man. Bob Gilman's the grandfather I never had. I think Benderdoggle and Gilman are the grandfathers I never have, you know,

and that says a lot and it means a lot to me. Thank you for doing this, West. Yeah. Well said, well said, and thank you for coming on. You got it, man. One thing I find frustrating is, you know, I can bring you and I realize, and forgive me, I'm not a scientist and I'm not a professional, but I can bring you all the eyewitness testimony you want. And you can look across the board and see it's consistent. And it's people from all walks of life, I mean, from judges to police officers, to hunters, to hikers, to house moms. And yet they all say the, for the most part, I mean, there's some differences, but for the most part, they're describing the same thing. And then we have these track casts.

And I've had a lot of people, professionals look at the trackcast and go, yeah, that was made by something living. That wasn't like a cut out of a wooden foot. That was actually a living creature that made that track cast. And then, you know, we can look at the audio. And audio is a little bit better than video. I know in this day and age we live in, people want the quick. They want the, the Patterson Gimlin film over and over and over again. I don't think you're going to get that, but that's what people want. But the interesting part is when you look at audio, it's very tricky to hoax audio because you can put it in a spectrograph and go, well, that's not coyotes. That's not a bear.

And that sounds very primate-like. And so you have all of this evidence. Yet, again, science, it's not a subject that's taken very seriously. I think as we go in small pieces, it's starting to be taken more and more seriously. But do you think that we need a type specimen? I don't. When you say we, my colleague seem to, and see, this is, I don't know if I call it a complaint. It's an observation I've made. And something I realized, writing books has been helpful to me. Scientists are kind of split. Scientists, they need a theoretical base for

something. And basically what they have said, unless you can propose a theory for the existence of this creature here in North America, I see no need to look at all that evidence you're bringing forward because it's probably bogus. And I say, oh, gee, but you know, and this is what we get from philosophy of science. No, sometimes the evidence is leading in a certain direction. We do not have a theory to explain it yet.

And the point of some physicists is, you know, follow the evidence where it goes, and the theory will eventually arise. And so that's what I think, what I think is happening. But, you know, I'm glad you mentioned audio because this is another, the vocalizations is the most recent form of evidence that I've started working on. It's kind of tough because I'm half deaf from too much shooting in my younger years, but we're getting some really good stuff here in British Columbia from a remote island. It's comparable with some stuff from Manitoba in eastern, well, central Canada. I actually, one of the research videos addresses it, but the problem, you know, people are starting to do a really good job of

documenting this now. Of course, down there, you know, in Washington, these people like David Ellis and Paul Graves are doing really good stuff. Anyway, so my point is, now we've got to get the relevant bioacoustic specialist to consider this, you know. But they're put off by, you know, all the adulterations of the evidence, hoax claims, and some actual hoaxes, and they don't want to get involved either. So there's this, this bearings. that that's what I'm struggling with. Welcome Mark Marcel to the show. He's the ape canyon guy.

I love to have him on the show. But tonight we're talking about our good friend, John Berenoggle. And Mark, you know as well as I do. He's gone, but not forgotten. If you would, would you share any memories you have of John? What did John mean to you? Yeah, you know, I'm not really good on, you know, chest beating and hair pulling over, you know, our dear departed.

I have kind of unconventional ideas about life and death. So I really, honestly, Wes, I really don't think he's gone because I really feel like he's still here as long as we keep working together. You know, from what I understand, reading the memoriams that have been going on over the past day or so about Dr. John, he, in his last words, as he was passing on, he talked about a lot about the need for us to continue the work, to continue working towards the goal of finding a really strong factual evidence that will get recognition for the work that we're doing, for getting recognition of the

Sasquatch phenomenon. And I really think that that's part of Dr. John's legacy. I think the legacy that Dr. John left behind was, of course, his great work that he did as a research biologist, right? But I was talking with my wife, Catherine, about this. And because, you know, I recognize John's passing. And John and I met briefly at the International Bigfoot conference. So it was the first time I met John. And of course, like a lot of what a lot of other people talk about, that their first impression about Dr. John is his profound kindness, this profound sensitivity, that he's just a profoundly very, very nice man. So I was talking with Catherine about this because we were talking about like a week or two ago as John was not doing well.

And then we talked as we passed a couple of days ago. And we were talking to the fact that you have to consider what kind of person you are as a researcher, right? That if you are involved in any kind of research, no matter what it is, any kind of investigatory research, if you're a complete jerk and you always have to be right, you're automatically handicapping yourself. as a researcher. I'm always going to be right. Everything that I, all my conclusions that I draw, they're the God's gospel and they're the real thing. You are not a true researcher.

If you are a kind person and you consider other people's opinions, even if they're outlandish, even as John Perk says, even if they're woo-woo, you know, even if you consider the fact that, hey, you know, just considering that there could be a kernel of truth, even if there's a kernel of a lead for you to pursue, you do have to consider that. And I think that's what Dr. John taught us, is that there is a lot to be learned. There's a lot of research that still has to be done, and we all have to work together, right? You know, that I think that Dr. John, in his last

words. I don't like to, you know, be too mottling. But I think that Dr. John's point was that we have to keep working. We have to keep working together. And I think that is going to be the success in our future pursuits in Sasquatch research. And so I think those are the two things is that there's the work that Dr. John did, but it's also the kindness that he taught us. and the fact that we can work together and we should work together in order to keep working. And I really think that that's why I feel that Dr. John is not gone as long as we keep working, as long as we keep finding our specialties in Sasquatch research and really get down to the mid-degree and keep working together. I think that's what will keep Dr. John alive.

Yeah, well said. Well said. And you're right, that is one of my fondest memory of John is how kind he was to everyone. You know, it didn't matter how much of a nut you were. You would go up and talk to him and he, and, you know, I'm a nut. So, but he would, he would talk to you like, you know, you were equals with him. He was always very kind to everyone. And he was very sweet to everyone. And I've never heard anyone say a bad thing about him. He will definitely. Definitely be missed. For me, since you last, I didn't get around to that because I was just memorializing about John. For me personally, I only met John once, and that was in Kenilick at a Russell Accord International Bigfoot Conference this last September. And from what I understand, that was Dr. John's last presentation, his last public presentation, which was phenomenal, because Dr. John talked about what a big fan he was of Mad Magazine, and he gave this, I'm really sorry for anyone who did not, was not able to see that presentation

because he gave this wonderful satire in a Mad Magazine kind of style about how the elite of the research community is not recognizing this huge amount of evidence that is before them of the Sasquatchewa. phenomenon. So Dr. John did a wonderful presentation. But I was, there was like this VIP dinner and all the speakers, you know, went to the dinner and fat around the tables. So I was in, I was in the dinner line and I was with Thomas Seward and Dr. John in line and he turned around and he said, hey, you're Mark. And I was like, yeah, I'm Mark. And he's like, you're the Ape Canyon guy. You're the guy you found

the Aip Canyon. I was like, you know, I was like, all fan. girling and everything because, oh my goodness, Dr. John Vendernagle recognizes me and everything. So he shook my hand and we talked about eating and everything. And then after his presentation, we talked a little bit more at its table there in the vendors area. And that's my only time where I was able to speak personally with Dr. John. And he was such a cool cat. And I really feel like we could have talked a lot more. And that's one thing I'm missing that Dr. John and I did not get a chance to speak more together

about whatever we wanted to talk about, but it just seemed like a very, very nice cat just to sit down and have some coffee with and talk. And so I am missing that opportunity with Dr. John. But again, going back to it to honor his work and to honor the work that he did is now on us, right? You and I, Wes, are somewhat close in age. I think you're a little bit younger than me. But it's up to us now. Now we're the old guard.

We're the old guys that people need to look up to. You and I and everyone needs to keep working on this research. And I think that's what Dr. John would want. Yeah, well said. Well said. And no one can fill John's shoes, but I'll do my best. And I know a lot of other people who've been on the show tonight will do their best to honor John.

But at the end of the day, man, you can't fill those shoes. They're just, beyond the research and beyond Bigfoot, he was hands down one of the best human beings I ever met. And he was, like I said, he was so sweet. And I know he wanted to prove to the scientific community how Bigfoot was real. He really wanted to prove it to him. He's gone now. But I'm hoping here shortly we'll be able to prove it.

But, you know, John, you know, that's one of the biggest things, you know, him being a scientist and a doctor. People tend to forget that because he comes on and he sounds like me, you know, a dumb guy on the show. And people tend to forget that he wasn't a dumb guy. He could just come down to my level. It doesn't mean he was at my level. He was well above me. But, yeah, we'll carry the torch and do our best to, uh, remember him. But I really appreciate you coming on, Mark, and taking the time to remember our friend,

John, and we'll see him again. Yeah, you bet. Every day that we make new discoveries, no matter how small, this has happened to me in the past month or two, no matter how small we make those incremental discoveries, that's when we remember, John. That's when we remember our forebears, the people who have come before us. You know, there's this old guard of Renee DeHenbant of John Green. People who have fast now. You know, we have very few old guard left now that Dr. John has gone. Who do we have?

We have Bob Gindlin, right? We have Peter Burns. You know, we have very few old guard left. But every day that we keep on going and we find these small bits of information and we share them with each other, we share that pieces of information with each other. we share that pieces of information with each other, and we share them with the public. That's how we keep on going. That's how we remember these people and honor their legacy.

Well, said, my friend. Well, thank you again, Mark, for coming on. Absolutely. Thank you, Wes. Yeah, and it's, you know, I grew impatient. I haven't been looking into this by any means as long as you have. And I don't understand how you've kept your patience over the years, but it gets frustrating. I haven't.

But it gets frustrating. You know, it's like, okay, you won't look at this. You won't look at this. You won't. And so in my mind, I tend to agree with Grover Krantz. I know the audience hates me when I say this. One has to be killed and brought in. It's just the way it is.

I hate to break it to everyone. But that's the way I feel because they won't look at the audio. They won't look at the track cast. Eyewitness testimony is irrelevant on the record for most scientists, even though I think a lot of them listen to the show and take that as a form of evidence. But they won't look at any of this stuff. Put videos aside and just look at some of this other stuff. And I usually tell people, you know, if you don't believe into this, that's okay.

If you're skeptical, I love skeptics. Take six months and look into this and then tell me that there's nothing to this. After you, you know, give it a good shot, take six months and look into it. But the problem is, is I don't think it's going to be proven with DNA. I don't think it's going to be proven with video. I don't think it's going to be proven with audio. Track cast, eyewitness testimony. You can go down the list.

I think Grover Trans was right. I think one probably has to be shot and brought in. Now, that's a big task. It's a very dangerous task, but I think that's probably what needs to be done. Maybe, yeah, I don't know. But you made a couple good point. First of all, I sense of,

I sense the frustration in your voice that I feel. And this is part of the problem. We know too much. You know, we've been doing this too long. You have, I envy the exposure you have to eyewitness descriptions. I mean, wow, I'd like to hear more of that. But, you know, again, philosophy of science, eyewitness descriptions, who is this, Michael Polani, a chemist.

And he's saying, you know, some of this evidence, we just, it. points us in a certain direction. It's not necessarily conclusive. Our colleagues may not consider it evidence, but it points us in a direction, and we need to, well, it may be worthwhile following it. And so that's a more modest take on eyewitness description, because, yeah, there is a lot of resistance to that, and for good reason. Well, next up on the show, I want to welcome Paul Graves, and we're remembering our friend John Bendernoggle. Paul, how are you tonight? Hey, thanks, Wes.

Thanks for hauling me up and let me talk for a few. I appreciate it. Yeah, if you would, I know John meant so much to so many people, and he was someone who was just so loved in the Bigfoot world, and in the world in general, the Bigfoot aside, the world in general has lost a huge icon, a huge, you know, humble soul, and he'll definitely be missed. But if you would, would you talk a little bit about what John meant to you,

and then maybe share any experiences or any stories you have about him? Yeah, I could go on and on about John and just how grateful I am to have met him and to be a part of this research that we're all involved in and passionate about. So John, you know, lives on Vancouver Island, so he's kind of from the Northwest. And so me being from Washington, I got a chance to meet him a number of years back. and yeah it was really hard news yesterday actually because I knew everybody was I'd heard that you know the time was getting close and heard a lot of people you know wanting to call him up and you know this and that it was hard for me to call him up and I guess say goodbye you know but I was I was going to actually do it on the morning that I found out that he passed and so I didn't get a chance to talk to him just recently I did talk to him and see him this summer and try cities down at Russ's conference down there, the International Bigfoot Conference. So I was really fortunate.

He was so excited. I actually brought him down the cast from the Sunny Slope trackway that I investigated. And he was just, you know, he reminds me. It's like you see John and you show him some evidence. And then all of a sudden it's like a scene out of a, it's like Peter Falk and a scene out of a Colombo episode. I mean, he's grabbing his, you know, everything but the long coat. but he's grabbing his notebook,

and he's writing down notes, and he's so excited, and he's really generally looking at you and listening to. He's not, you know, making any smart snide remarks or anything. He's really generally, you know, interested in what you have, and he's taking notes. And so, you know, just in that aspect right there, you know, the way he conducts himself and does his business,

you know, he really can teach us all a lot, you know. And he was a professional biologist, of course, but, you know, everybody can learn to be a citizen scientist, and if you do that and conduct yourself, you know, in that way it really helps. And there's just, there was just so much stuff that he was interested in with this and so much that, you know, a lot of people don't really have heard about stuff that he did because he didn't really just put himself out there all the time.

You know, he just quietly would do the work. But there was numerous times where we got together. him and me were kind of working on a paper-impelling thing happened to me personally. And he actually came and took the time to come over and meet me over here in eastern Washington, and I took him up to the location, and we spent a day up there, and he was generally really interested in it. And this was one where all these stick structures appeared right over my one-man tent. And there was two arches.

There was an older arch almost the same length of height as my one-man tent. And all this stuff appeared within two weeks of us being there, me and my research partner. And then there was two trees above that perpendicular that was a cedar bird tree that were like weaved and tied together and nodded, but this knot. And he was really interested in that knot. And I read Dimitri's book from Russia. And he talked about over in Russia that making knots, it's one of Southwashed's favorite pastimes. So anyway, it's, you know, it's some of this little, you know, that people are

starting to capture. And there's a consistency to it. And he was, you know, super intrigued by that. So we were kind of working on a paper on that. And he actually came over and he was so easy, like to camp with too. I mean, the guy could just like, he could camp anywhere. I mean, you talk about not need anything. I mean, he could so take care of himself. So he slept in my driveway one night when he needed a place in between stuff. And I'm, you know, asking him, you need this, this. You know, he's like, oh, no, I got my car. I'm good to go.

You know, he just, he was so self-sust. Just the nicest guy that you could ever, ever want to meet in someone. I mean, just generally, you know, the second you meet him, he just had this genuine niceness and real knowledgeable, too. But, you know, he would talk to you in a way that you could kind of, you could understand, too. You know, it wasn't all scientific jargon, but, you know, just, yeah, I can't say enough good things about John. He will really be missed by folks out there, so.

Yeah, and I think you hit it on the head, Paul. I mean, he was so, and I've said it a million times already during the show, but he was so, he could come down to your level and have a conversation with you at your level. At least for me, you know, being a dumb guy, he could come down to my level and we would talk about different theories. and he would say, well, what do you think about this? And, you know, he just talked to you like you were equals with them, even though you know deep down you weren't equals with him. But he would talk to you like you were an equal. And I've never seen him disrespect anyone.

Even people that didn't agree with them, he never disrespected anyone. He always treated everyone with the utmost respect. And I think the world has lost a good man. Not so much the Bigfoot world. I mean, obviously it's a huge loss to the Bigfoot world. but on a bigger scale, the world has lost a good man. Yeah. Oh, I totally agree, Wes.

And what you just said is exactly right. And I was kind of shocked, actually, a little bit. You know, I knew he was dealing with it, but, you know, I know that cancer is nowadays a little bit better, you know. I mean, as far as treatment and stuff, although it's not, we still don't have a cure, you know. I even sometimes talk about that with this Bigfoot thing, you know, it's like we have some of the top. scientists and the most money in the world that we're throwing about at something that we know exists, but we don't have the answer to. It's called cancer. It kind of reminds you of big put research.

You know, it's the same thing. So, you know, in a way, they kind of go together. My wife is actually going through some cancer treatments right now, and she is a survivor of breast cancer from seven years ago. So she's going through a second bout of some things. You know, I've lived with it, and I know what it's like, and I was kind of shocked that it came on so fast, but, you know, I have lost friends over the years from it, and I hope, I do hope someday that, you know, we can get a cure for, and find, and find out that they put real also, you know, for people like John and everyone that's worked hard, you know, throughout their lives and stuff, you know, and spend the time they do. That's what I tell people, you know, that just laugh at this, like, you don't realize. You know, there's some of the top-notch people in the world that have spent most of their lives, you know, research in this subject. And that right there, that just shows you a lot about, you know, really what this subject's all about and that it's not just fully and that it's a real subject that we're all, you know, researching.

Yeah, it'd be nice to have it proven, at least for John and everyone out there who's ever had an encounter. You hit it right in the head, though. You know, John, for as sick as he was, you would have never known it. If you had met the man, even up until the last month or so, you would have never known he was sick. He never once complained about it. He never once moaned and complained about being sick or having cancer. He was just the light of the world, man. And it's just sad.

It's really, really, it's a huge loss. Yeah, it really is. But I appreciate you coming on and taking the time to. to, you know, talk about John what he meant to you and share some stories that maybe the rest of us don't get to hear. And, you know, it's a weekend of remembering John. So, thank you, Paul. Thank you, Wes. Yeah, no, thank you for let me give a few words for John.

I really appreciate it. And I just, you know, John's an example to all of us out there, how I think, you know, that we all can conduct our research. and, you know, because there's some, even though, you know, this research gets a bad shake, especially over the last 10 years or something, there's still some great people out there doing some great work and everybody just stay at it and, you know, remember people like John and it'll just, it'll keep that fire and that passion in you for what you like to do because, boy, if you ever just, if you ever spend any time around John, he, he was, he was, you know, one special person. And yeah, you know, Wes, because you got to meet him. So, yeah, he was.

Well, thank you again, Paul. Yeah, thanks, thanks, Wes. I appreciate it, man. You have a good night. I wanted to ask you, one of the questions I was asked to me a couple years back, and I didn't have a great answer for it. I was kind of stopped dead in my tracks. A guy, Gary Wayne, he wrote a book, Genesis 6, it's about the Nephlam and all this other stuff. Well, he has an interest in Sasquatch. And he said to me, he said, West, don't you find it interesting and fascinating that Sasquatch is reported on almost every continent? It's in Canada. It's in, you know, it's in China. It's in Russia.

It's in the United States. It's reported in Australia. And everyone kind of has a different name for it. Yet there's not, he says, don't you find it weird that really there's not a whole, we haven't really moved the subject forward? I mean, there's really not a whole lot's changed in since the Patterson Gimlin film. I mean, really, nothing's changed, yet it's reported everywhere. And I didn't have an answer for him. Well, I have a couple of comments on that, if I may, because, you know, the scientific discipline that first started studying the Sasquatch was cultural anthropologists.

Now, these were not physical anthropologists studying apes and primates and humans. These were, they were looking into like Aboriginal culture, and they said, ah, yes, this imaginary giant that we keep hearing about, I think that's a metaphor for wilderness and fear and famine, and certainly Aboriginal people in Northern Canada. It's a very widespread motif in Aboriginal culture. And, you know, this is what it is, you know, and this is this metaphor, this representation of something. And that became very widely accepted.

But anyway, and we didn't actually get, weren't able to attract other anthropologists. I had something else I was going to say. But there's that problem. Oh, and I know this thing on other. So this is the other thing. They say, ah, and proof that it's simply a metaphor or an imaginary being. It occurs all around the world. You know, Australia has one.

Indonesia has one. China has one. You know. So this is the problem with these other hominid. But as you know, Jeff Meldrum is working ahead on that. And Cliff Berrickman has done some great work with the Rang Pendek in Sumatra. And he's working with an Indonesian fellow there. They're collaborating and getting great trackass of the Rang Pendek.

And I'm thinking, oh, shucks, they're going to have a better acceptance of the Rang Pendek. that kind of small ape, well, I think it's an ape, an upright ape, of Sumatra, then we have for the North American Sasquatch. And Grover had a good comment.

He said, oh, we really should be working on the Sasquatch because we just have so much. And, you know, when Grover was talking, I mean,

he died in the year 2000 or, but, but that way, by then, he said we should have so much for the Sasquatch, and now we have even more. And I agree with you.

We should be much further ahead than we are. Well, next up on the show, I want to welcome Diane, Neese. Diane, how are you? I'm doing really good under the circumstances. Yeah, it's good to hear from you. Thank you so much for coming on and honoring our friend John on the show. And I really wanted to send him out the best way I could.

You know, I wanted to send him out with class and bring on some of his friends and talk about the good times with John. If you would, would you talk about what John meant to you? and then if there's any memories that you have, Diane, that you'd like to share. Okay. Well, first and foremost, John was my friend. Above Bigfoot Research and everything else, he was such a sweet man. He absolutely loved his family and his wife, Joan. That came out in his whole persona is the love he had for his family.

and his friends. So he taught a lot of people, a lot of things as far as research goes. I remember, excuse me, just over the years, you know, phone calls, letters, emails with him asking him questions about certain things. And this went back to when I was living in Florida and doing research there. he was always open to helping and giving ideas and suggestions for how to look at certain things. He helped a lot on just how to look for evidence and collecting it and how to present it. He was such a great help in that regard.

I remember, I mean, I've known him for so long. I haven't remember even how long I've known him. John's always been there and, you know, just been so helpful. Anytime I ever emailed him or called him, he was always right there, willing to help and give out, you know, advice and suggestions, he was such an impact in Sasquatch research that, he's so going to be missed just for his love and compassion and devotion and just the energy he had about him. I remember him laughing and chuckling he did at one point when I called and talked to him about some things going on in Florida,

basically hoaxing from a certain individual. And we had a good chuckle about, you know, a little, you know, anyone. and sarcasm about, oh, yeah, they found this, they found that. So, I mean, he was serious, but he was also, he saw the humor in the hoaxing that sometimes went on. And, you know, and also, and not just humor, but the, he was concerned, of course, like most of, most serious reaches are, about the impact it would have on not just the community, but scientists because he was so wanting to show his colleagues in scientific world that, yes, these are here. And he wanted to show the evidence and the data and documentation. And I knew how he felt about the impact hoaxing had on the community and the scientists.

But yeah, he was such an awesome individual. and just a dear, dear friend, and that's the loss that I feel is just the friend I had in John. Yeah, I think you really hit it on the head. You know, if I could sum up John, a big foot aside, if I could just sum up John, I would say he was a beautiful human being. He was somebody who, and it's been said throughout the whole show, and I'll keep saying it, keep honoring my friend, but if you want to be a better human being, copy John. You won't be John.

Trust me, no one can be John. But if you want to be a better human being, be like John. John always treated everyone with respect. And, you know, hearing you call and email him and you're right, he was always there. He was always there. He was never too busy to stop and talk to you, you know. Exactly. Even being sick, you know, here's the man dying of cancer.

And I'll try and hold it together, but, you know, you'd always worry about you. Sorry, Diane. He would always worry about you, how you were doing. And I think all of us knew he was dying of cancer. And he never talked about it. He never talked about how sick he was. He never complained. He never, I mean, I thought the man would live forever, just the way he acted. I thought for sure this man was going to live forever. And it's a sad day. It's a sad day. It is indeed. But he's definitely a loved man. Yeah. So, yeah, I miss him. Yeah, he was a good man. He was a good man. And it's, you know, it's, I wish more on a smaller level, even though it's insignificant now, but I wish more people were like him in this field. I think more people would really, if we could get a thousand Johns in this field, I think it'd be proven tomorrow, you know, just the way he was. And, you know, his wife was beautiful and their relationship was beautiful. And John was just a beautiful human being.

I mean, that's all he can say about him. He was just such a beautiful human being. And, you know, I had him on the show, and he would always share his insights. And a lot of times people would want answers. And John always being the scientist till the end, sometimes he wouldn't give you the answer as you wanted. You wanted to hear. But he always respected what he said. I mean, there was times where I wanted him, he knew what the answer was.

I knew what the answer was. But he wouldn't say it. Being a scientist, he always. kept that scientific mind about him. And there's very few people, you know, most people would be like, well, if you're not going to hear me out, then I'll see you later. But with John, you stopped and you listened to what he said,

and you always respected what he said. It's a huge loss. Yeah. I mean, he wanted you to find the answer. He was there to help out anyway. Kim, but being like you said, scientists, you wanted you to look for it. You wanted you to invest your energy,

time, and everything. and finding it. And yeah, he was, he was awesome. And for those that don't know his wonderful wife, she's a fantastic, strong, beautiful, just I can't say enough about her. Yeah, if you get a chance, we do me a favor.

If you talk to Joan, will you apologize for me? I called, I wanted to give my condolences, and I just broke down on their answering machine, and then I felt really dumb afterwards. Oh, goodness gracious, no, that she, you know, no, I'll tell her, but yeah, you don't need to apologize. She would totally understand and, gosh, not be offended at all, no. Yeah, he was loved.

He was loved. Yes, very much. I loved him, and I'm going to miss it very much. Yeah, and I can hear it in your voice. Yeah. So, you know, it's keep your head up. You know, John would be laughing at us right now if you knew we were breaking down the room. He'd be like, what are you guys doing?

There's more important things to do than talk about this. I mean, that's just the way the man was. And I can just hear him. He'd be like, oh, you know, doing a show remembering John Bendernoggle, John would tell him, don't do that show. Go do an encounter show. Go have a researcher on. He, you know, he'd be first.

He was just so humble and he'll be missed. Exactly. He will be missed. He'll be sitting there right now saying, move on, move on. Yeah. Well, thank you, Doc. Well, thank you, Diane. Thank you for coming on.

And I know it's not easy. It wasn't easy for anyone. But thank you for coming on and just sharing your feelings about John. You know, for those who didn't get to meet the man, kind of sharing, I think we all summed it up. He's just a great human being. Indeed. And I'm thankful that you asked me to be on to show my love and respect to the man. Yeah, absolutely.

Well, thank you again. You're very welcome, dear. Well, next up, I want to welcome Diane's better half, Todd. Todd, how are you, ma'am? I'm doing okay under the circumstances. Thanks for having me on. No, I appreciate you being here. If you would, would you mind just saying a few words about John, what he meant to you?

And then if there's any memory, would you mind sharing any memory that you have of him? Absolutely. building. John was just an amazing individual, both on a personal level and as a scientist. I first met John at the Sasquot Symposium. And, oh gosh, maybe 20 years ago in Paris and Hot Springs, British Columbia. I was asked to come up and speak there. And here was John, just as, you know, kind. And I think what struck me about him is that he was just so humble and unpretentious. And he just accepted everybody, you know, just right off the bat.

You were his friend, you know. And I would go on to see him at, three more of those symposiums as well as other conferences around the country. And he was just very consistent in his beliefs and findings. I was just, you know, he's, he was one of those early academics that came out and were willing to risk their credentials. people like Grover Krantz and Bayonoff and Fort Siff and Ferenbach. I remember these guys, that's that they were very earnest in what they were trying to approve, and they didn't really care what mainstream scientific community thought about it.

And that's something that can't be overstated. John was always, like I said, he was always there as an, advisor as well as a friend. More recently, I finally, after years, got him to come to our gathering beach foot. He had put it off for some time just because he, I guess it was the name of the event that he felt it kind of lacked seriousness.

And that was until he showed up in 2015 and really enjoyed himself. and of course everybody enjoyed John and he spoke there free of charge of course and he was always willing to share his work. In 2016, September, on our way up to Campbell River, British Columbia, to initiate Operation C-Money week, the team stopped by his home there in Courtney. and John had set out two tables with canopies over them because it had been raining a bit and had laid out tracks and photographs and again just very very open to sharing his work and of course Joan was just an amazing host she brought out tea and cookies for us

and it was great to see him, and he really wanted to go. But, of course, by this time, his cancer had been getting more progressive, and he had a lot of medical appointments. But he, again, always encouraged us to drive on and do our best. And then in 2017, he was actually slated to speak at, beach foot. But again, his illness prevented him from coming. But he was kind enough to provide a fairly lengthy video address to the group. And that is something I'll always cherish. Yeah, he did that a lot, didn't he? I mean, if he couldn't show up, Russell was talking about

that. If he couldn't show up, he would always do a video. He would always, you know, and here's a guy dying of cancer. I mean, and you and I, know John wasn't doing well most of the time. You'd never know it talking to him. He was so positive. He just would, he'd go the extra mile for you. I could call up John and ask him for anything, and he would do it. And he was just that type of guy, you know, and, you know, he'll be fondly, fondly remembered, that's for sure. I know you're close to him. I know Diane was very close to him, and I know you guys are struggling, but it's like I was just telling Diane, you know, John wouldn't want us moping about him, even though we all are.

I was just telling Diane, you know, he would say, don't do a show about me. Go do an encounter show or go do a, go have a researcher on. You guys talk about Sasquatch. Don't do this. And he was just that type of guy. You know, he was just so humble and he was just so kind and generous with his time. And just a great human being. I mean, that's how I would sum them up, just a great human being.

Yeah. I actually spoke with John last week, in fact, and just offered him whatever encouragement I could and told him if he needed anything, I would be up there in a heartbeat. And he told me, he said, look, Todd, he says, I'm in and out with the medication I'm on. And he says, I'm surrounded by family,

so don't worry about me. But he did ask me if I would to send him some of the video we took as well as stills on our visit there in 2016. And I promised him I would. And I did. But I called, well, as you know, a few days ago, I called up and don't answer the phone. And she told me that he had passed in the nights. and she was very stoic, well collected, and she's like, Tom's in a better place.

Yeah. Hang in there, buddy. Yeah, he is in a better place. You know, I hate to see such a good man. You're going to make me cry, man. I hate to see such a good man go out like that, you know, have cancer. And like I said, I mean, I can't say enough good things about him. He was loved.

He was very loved. by everyone. I've never heard anyone saying anything bad about him. Everyone that's ever met him has just, you know, they admire him and they want to be like him and he was so humble and so meek and so kind and he'll be missed. He's definitely

in a better place. He's, you know, he made a mark and he will always be a legend in this field. But I think it's suffice to say that

he knows now that all his work was not wasted and that the truth is there. And so we'll see him again someday. We'll definitely see him again. Well, I appreciate you and Diane coming on and just saying a few words about what John, I think people can hear your voice. I mean, John meant the world to you. He meant the world to me.

And I think anyone at Newham, he meant the world to them. and he was just that type of guy but I appreciate you and Diane coming on to talk about John and honor our friend and send him off the right way and in a classy way. I appreciate what you're doing with and

you know, honoring him this way and that's all we can do. We need to just follow in his very big footsteps and drive on. That's what he has long. and and let's

let's the witness for him yeah absolutely well thank you my friend thank you well that's it for tonight everyone I hope

the show came across the right way I want to really send John off in you know the only way I knew how and I think you can tell by all the people that came on and there was a lot of people that wanted to come on and talk about John

and I know I've dedicated almost three hours to John. I dedicate another three hours to him. He'll be sorely missed. He was loved. He was admired. And like I said, to sum him up, he was just a great human being. And in all of our hearts, you know, we can keep John alive and safe. And he'll be missed.

Until next time, everyone. It's been a lot without you, my friend. And I'll tell you all about it when I see you again. We've come a lot from where we began. Oh, I'll tell you. Standing right here talking to you about another path. I know we love to hit the road and laugh. But something told me that it wouldn't latch.

Had to switch up. Look at things different. See the bigger picture. Those were the days. Hard work forever pays. Now I see you in a better place. Talk about family with families are that we got everything I would do you I'll tell you my friend and I'll tell you all about it when I see you again

We've come a lot from where we began Oh, I'll tell you Go out your way in with friendship, a friendship turn to a bond and that bond He'll never be broken and love will never get lost Remember me when I'm out you my friend and I'll tell you my friend and I'll tell you You all about it when I see you again. We've come a lot from where we began. Oh, well, tell you.

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