Sasquatch Chronicles - SC EP:44 Sasquatch on the property

Episode Date: August 11, 2014

Mark Dobbs is a forensic anthropologist and will be joining the show as we talk to Dina from Washington. As a child Dina grew up with Sasquatches on her property and she will be discussing how one night Sasquatch attacked the home and terrified her father. Mark will be giving us scientific insight on what he hears and will be sharing his thoughts about primate behavior and bigfoot. Wes will be giving an update on the Brown's property from EP:42. A few other guests will be sharing with us what is going on in our parts of the United States.

When I had come down this hill, I had seen this creature cross the road. It would have ripped my locked door from my truck, extracted me from my vehicle, and there wouldn't have been a damn thing I could have done about it. Look, this thing I got to notice in its eyes. His eyes was real, real evil, real sinister looking. You know, the look it was giving me. What are you reporting? Somebody out here.

What's going on now, sir? That's son of a bitch is about 6'9. I don't know. Welcome to Bigfoot Hot Spot Radio, Cascwatch Chronicles. your host, Wes, along with my brother Woody, and researcher, author, and friend, William Jesse. Let's start the show. When Woody and I were at Beachfoot, we ran into Tammy Murray. She does a show with Richter. It's called After Hours with Richter. She's the co-host of it. And she makes these glass pendants. They look like Bigfoots, and they're on a little necklace. And I remember I've seen them a long time ago. It's a sweet, sassy, glassy, and Woody and I got our

our pendants when we're there, and I actually think they're kind of cool. Mine's a jet black one. What do you got, kind of a, what's it, like a charger blue? Yeah, it's kind of a, it's kind of a cool, cool, ball blue, I guess. You know, kind of a outline of a big foot. But not only does she make that, she makes a whole bunch of other stuff, too. You know, certain glass cuttings that she personally makes,

pressing a glass, she presses metal into glasses. Anything, anything you want, anything that looks cool, she has it. You got to check her out. Good stuff. Yeah, we'll have to get you one of these things, Will. They're actually pretty cool. It looks like a little big foot. It's like a piece of glass that's cut out that looks like big foot.

Oh, nice. Yeah, they're really cool, actually. The word on the street, she's naming the black one after me. That's just what I heard. There was a story behind that way? It'll be because we can't air. It was a long, it was a long weekend, well, it was a long weekend. Who wasn't that long?

I'll pursue it no further. Figures in my ears going la la la la la la la la. Yeah, la la la la. I hear nothing. I hear nothing. I see nothing. I see nothing. Yeah. Worst promotion of someone's product ever.

We'll be getting text messages shortly after the show's aired, I'm sure. is there a certain letter reading after this that we're supposed to know about her I'd like to formally apologize to the after hours crew and staff yes we also went up to the Browns and that was pretty awesome too that was a lot of fun you know I

I kind of got it wasn't feeling so hot Wes but I do have a lot of pictures and stuff yet to post I haven't really talked to John or Sarah Simpson, but I'm sure it's okay with them, you know, if I post them, but I kind of wanted to get the okay, but a lot of the stuff we saw there was kind of weird, don't you think? I mean, there was a lot of things that kind of make you go, hmm, you know what I mean? Yeah, a lot, a lot, and a lot of vocals.

I mean, it was nonstop vocals when we got there, nonstop vocals almost throughout the night until about one in the morning. It even started before it got dark, yeah. It was even before it was dark, and then we heard, you know, three, four, five things. And then, yeah, it was a really cool, really cool adventure. Will, we got to get you out there. You love it.

You go crazy. Absolutely. Absolutely. You go crazy, man. There's a lot of stuff that probably you'd see that I didn't even see. But, yeah, like I said, I'm going to go ahead and throw some stuff up on Facebook. I've got some of the stuff that I think, West you saw that they tied the fence. There was tying up fences together.

There was some, look like some hand toys that were made. branches being twisted and there was a whole bunch of stuff. You could see where they're maybe getting cool during the day. You know, more to come. I'll post those up on Facebook so they get a chance. I just haven't been feeling good, man. I felt like crap these last few days, so I apologize.

Have you guys seen this? Megan Fox is wanting to be taken out on an expedition? I saw something on it, yeah. Woody knows who Megan Fox is. Well, in my personal email a few weeks, back, yeah, she actually did say something to me about that. Yeah, right. Is this something like the beach foot thing we were, you know,

we need to maybe not know about or? Oh, no, I think everybody should know about it, you know. You know, they should know. The rumor is, yes, less. She is actively interested in midfoot and probably if she, you know, if she has the right opportunity in the right time, she'd probably jump at the chance to go do it. I don't know that whole lot about her, but.

Yeah, it'd be cool to take someone like, take someone like Megan Fox out, but, God, can you imagine if, like, paparazzi show up or, God, that would drive me nuts. Something like that happened. It almost like you'd want to keep it quiet just so something like that doesn't happen. I know a few months back we had, I'm not sure if it was me or you, but one of us sent an email via, no, actually, It was actually, I take that back, excuse me.

It was via Twitter. I think I sent her a message sometime back. Of course, no response like most women with me. Yeah, I did send her a Twitter message, and I think we've tried contact her since then, but yet to find out if she's an arrest her or not. You know who else I heard was really into Bigfoot, was Nicholas Cage. I heard he's like a super Bigfoot freak. He'd be kind of cool to take out.

not as good as Megan Fox but, you know. I think it'd be great, man. He's a cool guy. I've seen some, you know, he definitely is interested. I've seen some interviews with him and he's, he's not afraid to come out and say that he is interested. So I think that's kind of cool being in the celebrity scene

just trying to step out of your box and let everybody know that, you know, hey, yeah, you know, possibly he believes him. But I'm not sure. Has he has a siding or is he just interested, do you know? I don't think so. I think he's just interested. Yeah, he's just kind of checking it out. So, yeah, cool guys.

That'd be another cool guy to go with out, you know, in the celebrity field. That'll be fun. Yeah. You should start stalking him the way you do Megan Fox. Maybe we'll get a response back. No stocking. There's no stalking going on. Come on, guy.

First person I wanted to bring on tonight was Shannon Legerow. And she's been in. to pick for a while. She sent us some messages. She follows the show, but she does a lot, it looks like a lot out there in the field. She recently went to the Ohio, the salt fork, and stayed, and I was looking at pictures online.

It looks like she got some footprints, and she was talking about different sounds or different vocals that they had while they're out there. But I wanted to go ahead and welcome Shannon to the show. Hey there. How are you guys? Doing pretty good. It's doing pretty good.

Good. We were hoping you'd give us an update. What's going on in, I saw some of the footprints that you had taken while out there at the Salt Fork State Park? If it's anything, they look older. It looked like an older, you know, print of something. I wasn't definitely insinuating it with Bigfoot, but it was interesting. That was right next to our campsite, though. So that was a cool find.

The toe, well, the quote-unquote toe area. is what grabbed my attention. We had hyped so much that I probably found 20 different things. I could have been like, oh, it looks like a footprint, but that was the only one I was like, well, there could be some two impressions there and there's a heel mark. So I took the snap. I guess it wouldn't hurt to at least document it and put it in a file, you know.

Yeah, no, it was good. So tell us when you were out there. What did you see? What did you hear? So I went out there because they've been having some reports out at the primitive site. Now the primitive site is actually named Bigfoot Ridge because there is so many sightings out there. There's no lighting, there's no electricity that runs out there. So, you know, if you're going to go camp and looking for Bigfoot, I suppose that's the way to go.

And now we camp right next to a site that a couple had an encounter last year, which actually got them doing their camp. early, like in the middle of the night. So we camp next to their site, and I happen to see an older gentleman pulling by himself, and he starts unloading his gear. We go over and we say, hello. Oh, what are you doing out here? And he goes, oh, I'm doing work. And he said, okay, we'll have a nice day.

We'll talk to you later. And I thought it was a little odd. And I thought, well, let me all just talk to him because I bet he's a big footer. Sure enough, I start chatting with him and he says, I say, so what kind of work do you do? And he goes, oh, I'm studying wildlife migration patterns. And I go, I go, Bigfoot? He goes, yeah. So he was kind of stoked about that.

When you think about the BFR or any of the other reporting site, that's just what's reported. this guy had a sighting two months ago, and that's why he was out there. A walk down to where his siding is, and it's right behind our campsite. So he had the whole tree peak experience, and he said, I didn't know they were there until they wanted me to know they were there, because they didn't hear a thick break until the two creatures were about 25 feet from them, and this is about 2 in the morning. but then he said once they saw him and knew that he had seen them they took off oh wow so yeah that that stuck with him and he admitted that you know they frightened them

but he had to get back on the horse because he he loved the subject enough so we ended up going after dark with him to the same site and this was just a groomed service road for the park service out there. And we just sat and just sat on the ground. We weren't doing any calls or wood knocks or anything. We just kind of were sitting there chatting, you know, acting like we weren't bigfooting. And I, again, I can't, just like the cast or the track, I can't say it was bigfoot, but we hadn't heard a peep for a long time. Not a bird, not a cricket, nothing. When I was standing, just checking days out listening, we weren't even talking at this point. and heard a loud, monotone whistle.

But it sounded odd, and it freaked me out because it sounded like a bad mimic of a bird. And it was very loud, and it wasn't in the tree. It was probably barely stone thrown in front of us in the brush. So it freaked me out. So I went from standing to crowd team real quick. I bet. Yeah. Yeah, that got me.

So I thought, well, I've kind of heard a lot about mimics and whatnot. Again, I can't say it was a big foot, you know, messing with Sasquatch kind of thing. But it was interesting, you know, to say the least. It never hurts to take care. Yeah. Because down the road somewhere, it might connect to something you find bigger. Yeah, that's what I thought about the track. because it did end at an interesting point

because where that where that trap was pointing was right to our campsite and it was right behind a big bush. So I thought, well, that's interesting. And Shannon, you had something run through your camp, didn't you? Yes. The first two nights, it was just before dawn.

It was loud enough to wake me up. Me being who I am, and as much as I love the subject, I had big fun on the brain. but there was footsteps because it woke me up. They weren't heavy. So the best way I can describe it is somebody was, they were trying to not step hard, but you could still hear it,

going through very slowly. They went from one side to the other, and then it sounded like it was extremely close to the front of the tent. And it went on for maybe 20 minutes, 25 minutes, both mornings, same time, same duration of time for the event. And then last night, it started to pour. And it drizzled and drizzled and drizzled all night. There was no footsteps.

I didn't hear a thing. And even though the rain had calmed down by the morning, there was no footsteps. So whether it was, you know, crazy woods people or whoever had gone to the camp, you know, the nights before, they didn't feel like coming out in the rain. Now, is there a lot of reports from that campsite besides that one that you heard? I mean, have you heard of other reports that have happened right there in the campsite? Yeah, the reported ones, and actually the one that I found, the document was at the campsite. And the other documented from Salt Fork last year was on a trail where a guy said he thought he heard talking.

but it wasn't normal talking, so he looked in Salt 2 Creatures. But that was the most recent ones. But yeah, there has been definite reports from the, especially to the primitive side, it seems. There's so much that goes on in that Salt Fork, State Park. It seems like in Ohio that's all you ever hear about is that area. Yeah, it's a huge park, you know, 17,000 acres. There's 3,000 acres worth of water. And it's creepy.

You walk down to the forest, and I think. It's a nice dark place. And Will, same on you for saying that about using your book for kinsling. I would never do that. Well, I told Lentlis, you know you could take, you could have taken two of them and rubbed them together to start a fire. No. Well, that's my book. I'm amazing.

Appreciate it, Shannon. Thank you so much. Well, thank you guys. It was a pleasure. Forensic Anthropologist. His insights will be a big... Hey, how you doing? Your first guest tonight.

Not too bad. Not too bad. Really, I'm looking forward to sharing some stuff, actually. Oh, absolutely. We also have anthropologist on the phone with us, Mark Dobbs. And so we wanted to, he's going to kind of give us feedback. And then we'll just kind of ask questions as we go. All right.

Let's go first of all. Tell us what you knew about the subject of Bigfoot before you saw or encountered anything. My family, I kind of grew up knowing about it because things that went on at our house. My grandparents, they had issues, so I kind of grew up hearing about it all the time. And what part of the way was that? Nohomish, Malta, Washington, actually. Okay, well, let's just kind of start with the beginning, and maybe tell us some of the things you heard. Well, my grandparents, I mean, I remember specifically phone calls that my grandkids,

my grandpa would call and talk to my dad on the phone, and we always knew he was upset because his freezer kept getting, you know, got into, and it's kind of funny because just the other day I heard I was listening to one of your shows, and I heard almost the exact same thing, and I kind of laughed about it. Except for the door kept getting left open. He had an outside freezer on the outside porch, and my grandpa was the avid hunter-like. You walk into his place, and there would be pelts, deer heads, bare skin, wolves, you name it, he had it, hunted them himself.

And whatever was going on, you know, I remember as a kid thinking, he's extremely disturbed. Like, he was freaked out. And he had two hunting dogs, zip and, oh, I can't remember the other one's name, one particular incident with the freezer and the dogs wouldn't come out. And this call issue went on over and over where he would call my dad. And the reason he was calling my dad, I found out, was that he actually believed that Tom, my brother, who was living at my grandparents at the time, was stealing from the freezer and leaving the freezer door open. And, you know, it's kind of silly in retrospect. I think realistically, he was grasping for straw.

As time went on, obviously, that wasn't the case. You know, Tom was put under a third degree over it. Swear as he didn't do it. Swear as he didn't do it. I think my grandpa knew he didn't do it. And one night, everything kind of came to a head. My dad had had enough, and he went over there. And as the story goes, I wasn't there.

As the story goes, they were standing in the kitchen, and my grandma was telling my dad about other things that she had seen. She had seen one creature, she called it, walking away from the back door into the trees. Now, the tree line came straight up, like literally probably, three feet from the back window where the kitchen is. That was like that as far back as I can remember, but she saw it walking away. She didn't know what it was, but it was huge.

And she had told my grandpa that, I don't know what my grandpa did with it. You have to figure during that time I'm between the ages of six and nine years old. So it's not like grown up sat around and talk to the kids about what was going on. We got to catch what we caught. That was it. You have to say, as the story goes, and I have talked to my dad about this as an adult, just to kind of figure out exactly what happened. So, anyways, he's standing there.

My grandma's going on about what she's seen, what she's heard, and my grandpa, he's just had it because deer, pieces of deer, whether it be hind quarter or flank, meat is missing all the time from his freezer. And the freezer's getting left open. And, you know, to my grandpa, that's like the worst possible insult you could ever give him to steal his meat, that he worked his butt off to get. needless to say, my dad's standing there, and the story goes like this. He turned around talking to my grandma and saw someone standing in the window of the kitchen.

So that's it. My dad, you know, ex-Marine, goes flying out the back door. He's going to confront this hoodlum or whatever he thinks it is. I have no idea. Goes around the back of the house, there's nobody there. And he looks up to where the window is. And it's about 11 feet off the ground. And his exact words are he felt like he didn't breathe.

Like literally someone punched him in the stomach. All the air went out of him. You know, looking at him, I guess watching your father retell something and you still see that fresh fear in their face even after so many years. I myself, I've been, you know, piqued with interest over it ever since I was about 19, which I had a, you know, full adult experience. And I had one when I was a kid, but I guess, I don't know, didn't affect me the same, I guess. I'm what you call obsessed. Your first encounter was when you were a child? Yeah, yeah.

My dad, he was a truck driver, and he frequently would get home really late and then have to turn around and get up really early and stuff. And this one night he was coming home, and my mom said, you know, we had a pretty small house. And my sister and I shared one room. My mom put us on the floor in the living room. And in our sleeping bags and my mom was going to sleep on the couch right there in the living room too. My dad was to get home and take my sister and I's bedroom. And so that he could, you know, have quiet sleep, whatever, and get up at 4 or 5 o'clock in the morning, whatever time that was, and leave again.

So apparently I wasn't awake when he got home because I don't remember him getting there or anything. What I do remember is the next thing I know, basically, he is standing there whisper yelling at my mom, like they're face to face. And I'm looking at him, and I'm laying on the floor, and I'm looking at him, but I'm afraid to look him in the eye because I'm afraid he'll see me with my eyes open. So I look at my sister who's facing me.

She has her eyes open. We're staring at each other listening to my dad, and he says, it's going to kill me. It's coming through the wall, and he's freaking out. And I look up at him again. He has no color, none in his face. He's almost green. I was probably seven when that happened.

And again, with seeing your protector, somebody who's big and strong, be like that, is really traumatizing to say the least. Apparently, he had gone in to go to bed and something was beating on the walls, hitting the windows, scratching, and he thought for sure that it was going to come through the wall and it was going to kill him. I mean, he just kept saying it over and over and over again that it's going to get him. It's going to kill him. And my mom is trying to soothe him, trying to make him so better, telling him it was probably a dream. My mom knew better. She had had her own experience, but I guess faced with the situation, she didn't know what else to do.

The next morning, my sister and I get up, my dad's gone. He went outside and around the side of the house where our window was. and the window sill was gone. The house that we lived in was built probably in the early 1900s, and it had windows soles on the outside of the house that stuck out probably five or six inches. The window cell was gone. Gone. Like, I don't know how to explain it.

It's like if you stood on it and busted it off, right. The grass looked like somebody had taken a pitchfork, not a rake, a pitchfork, and scraped the ground. There were rocks everywhere in the grass, which we had rocks in our driveway, but there weren't rocks in the grass. So, you know, that was something else. I only recently realized that there was more outside going on with the Bigfoot thing other than BFRO only about probably three months ago. I really, and I have nothing to do with the BFRO that irritate me, so I don't have anything to do with them. But to me, that's all there was.

And it was really very pathetic what, you know, there was. And so I'm very surprised to find your guys a show. And just, you know, it inspired me to want to share. And I've never reported anything on the BFR. I had absolutely no desire to do so because there's a lot that, believe it or not, you block out when you're a kid. I guess it's to make it okay. When it comes to, and I don't want to offend anybody,

when it comes to people who believe that this, is a lovable pet or something I just have one thing to say and that is throughout

the six or seven experiences that I can remember clearly never have I felt comfortable never have I felt like I am

being loved by something I have never felt the need to hug it I have been terrified to my soul

and so based on that I can only say that obviously I'm getting that feeling because it's not a lovable teddy bear. You know what I'm saying?

Exactly. I know exactly what I'm saying. So, and I mean, I say that. I can relate. Did your father say or did it ever come out later in the years why the thing went off like it did? Did he go off? I mean, did your dad do? He never.

No. He just came phoned off. These kinds of things when they would happen, they were not talked about. They were not dealt with in any way, shape, or form. Walk us through your experiences from the beginning. When I was, we moved into that place. You have to understand my family owned it. Before we moved in, I moved in when I was four.

I'm the youngest of eight kids. Basically, all of my siblings are all, you know, a lot older than I am, like 20 years, my senior. So they weren't living there at the time. It was my sister and I and my brother, Terry. My sister's two years older than me. My brother Terry is six years older than me. What I remember, I was always afraid of that room. We used to hear banging all the time, all the time, like every night, like every single night there was banging.

And like somebody would run their hand on the wall, like if you were to open your hand and run it on the wall, like slide it across the wall, that sound, that was a normal sound. my sister and I frequently would crawl to the bottom of the bed and sleep at the bottom of the bed as far away from the window as we possibly could. The situation financially that our family was in it wasn't like my family could just go, oh, well, you know, this is uncomfortable with the kids, let's move. It wasn't like that. You know, this is in the 70s and, you know, things weren't that great in that aspect. I had a great childhood. What I remember with that was not great. this happened, I would say, 180 days out of a year.

And I think that's probably the only thing that kept most of us sane is that there was quiet times. My first actual, I know what it was that I saw and what it was, I was 11. We had had a fort out of the, you know, out of the property of the mill. My sister and I had built a fort with plywood in a triangle shape. open front, closed back. We put it deep back in the woods. And the idea there, my sister being two years older than me, is that we would sneak out.

And, you know, because she was into the boys thing and what have you, and she had to take me with sets, literally the way it went. One night, we snuck out, and everything was fine, and my dad was going to be home around dawn, and we knew we had to get back to the fort and basically ditch cars the whole way home so that, you know, we didn't, our dad didn't catch us. We ditched cars, we made it back to the backside of the property where my great-uncle Leo had his trailer.

Well, he's also a hunter. So we knew that we couldn't just mosey in the backside of the property. He'd hear us. So we had to, like, be really quiet. When we got into the woods, I'll never forget it, it was like being in a different world. These are my woods. You know what I mean? I know them.

You either felt comfortable or you didn't. There was never a medium, a middle ground. It was either okay or it wasn't. And this particular time, it was so on the other side of okay that none of us could even three little girls, 11 and 2, 13-year-olds, scared so bad that we, and we know we can't go back to the house. So we're all walking, holding on to each other. It's so quiet.

This is something that, it was so quiet, that, you know, that, you know, If I had whispered, hey, it would have probably sounded like it came through a bullhorn. It was so quiet. We got back to where the fort was, and I remember we all crawled in and we just held on to each other. Like, none of us had said a word. I mean, it was just the weirdest thing when I look back on it. None of us had said a word to each other the whole way. And when we got in there, there was a dead mouse, a perfectly,

healthy dead mouse and I know that that sounds weird but there was absolutely nothing wrong with this mouse it was just dead and it was inside of our sleeping bag with the covers pulled up and everything um which is fine mice can die whatever I'll let that go when we got in it was probably 15 seconds maybe 30 seconds between us getting in and this thing walking in front of the fort. And it took five steps total. It blocked out the light. It was probably a three-foot triangle, the front of our fort, about a three-foot triangle, right on the ground. This thing blocked out the light when it took its first step.

in front, and we only heard one step, and this is important because I'm an analytical mind and I didn't hear it coming, which means it was already there. And that geeks me to no end, pretty much. It took five steps, and in those five

steps, it managed to cross through our fort area and across the creek into our neighbor's property. And that was probably 10 yards. That was my first actual experience. The size of this thing's leg, this is a false dawn.

It's not pure black outside. It's a false dawn. It's kind of gray, I guess, is the right terminology. Right. And it blacked. Exactly. It blacked out that three and a half foot triangle front of our lean-to tent thing that we made out of plywood. and it was, you know, stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp, stomp, it wasn't like a four-legged.

This was clear and concise. There you go. The whole right side of my body literally almost felt like it caught on fire, and I don't know why that is except for the fact that I think I walked right by it. that that's the only thing that I can think of because my adrenaline reaction to it, even at 11 years old, was it was like the whole right side of my body was on fire. Like maybe I was within a foot of it when I walked into the camp. That was my first experience. We, of course, laid there holding on to each other for probably 20, 25 minutes, if that, just enough to where we knew that we could see a little farther in the woods. and we high-tailed it out of there.

We never slept out there again. Never slept out there again. It kind of freaks me out because I think, why did we sleep out there in the first place? You know what I mean? There was so much going on there. I wonder, I mean, we used to play war games out on our property in the dark, wearing dark clothes, my brothers.

But see, I had six brothers. So, you know, maybe that's why it was okay. I really honestly don't know. I don't know what was going through our heads half the time because half the time we were doing things that I'm looking at it from an adult point of view now going, you're not, there's no way. The other half of the time we were terrified. So in one part of it, we were acting like we didn't have a care in the world.

And, I mean, maybe that's a response to having, you know, parents that are completely not there. I mean, I don't know. Maybe this is how kids cope. I don't know. I mean, that's how we coped. So I don't know if that's right or dysfunctional or what. We moved when I was 12, so we were only there for probably about another eight or ten months after that incident. And we moved to Spokane.

And then my next incident, I was 19. And that was a two-night incident. That was two days in a row. And that was in the Spokane area? No. That was in Port Townsend, Port Hadlock. Oh, up in the position, okay. Yep.

And I was with my ex-husband. He was my boyfriend at the time. We were in a fifth wheel, and we were in the fifth wheel sleeping, and I heard this scream that didn't stop. It just kept going and going and going and going. and going and going and going and it lasted probably about 30 seconds of just solid screaming. I used to be a singer and I can tell you without a shadow of the doubt that in order for me to scream at the top of my lungs to have that kind of sound, there's no way that I could hold it for more than 15 seconds, maybe if I'm really good.

And this thing held this scream up and down and up and down for a long. time. It made my lip quiver. It lasted so long. It was incredible. I tried to wake my boyfriend up. Where we were sleeping was his mom's property and his mom had 17 geese. Geese are great watchdogs. They are wonderful. They're better than any dog could ever be. These geese actually checked the next day because I thought they were gone or dead because they made no noise. None. This thing is screaming and it's dead quiet everywhere. I tried to wake my boyfriend up and at the time I didn't know he had a sleep disorder, which I found out later.

He was like he was dead. I was shaking him and he was just a limp noodle. And I was hysterical because this thing while it was screaming was one thing, but when it stopped screaming is when I really got scared. When something is yelling like that, you can get a placement, you can get a bead on, how far away it's elevation, things like that. you go through your roll-a-dex in your mind of what you know, the known things that you know. And it wasn't fit in anything.

It was scary while it was screaming, but when it stopped is when everything changed, literally. All I could think of, its position was at the top of this trail that was about a quarter-mile long. We're at the bottom, literally in a valley, at the bottom of this trail and in a fifth wheel. And in the fifth wheel, there's a hole in the floor, not the greatest place in the Hawaii world, but this is the way it was. I tried to wake Mark up. He wouldn't wake up. The silence lasted and lasted and lasted somehow. I managed to go back to sleep.

The next morning, I was yelling at Mark because I was so scared. I didn't know what to do with myself and he wouldn't wake up. That was when I found out that he had a sleep disorder that was really bad and that he would like be a dead person. I mean, he'd have a pulse and breathe, but you would not be able to wake him up for nothing. I was hysterical. The next night, and you have to understand during the day I told him, I said, if that happens again ever. I said, I will, I'll hit you with baseball bat.

I will not go through that alone. I will not. And the next night, almost on cue, I get woke up to this thing screaming, bloody murder from the same exact place. I grab Mark by the hair. Wake up. I'm going to pull his lips. I'll do whatever it takes. I'm not going through this by myself.

He wakes up. Now it's quiet. The thing is stop screaming. I'm freaking out. I'm quietly freaking out because I don't want to make a noise. I'm in a little tin fifth wheel with hole in the floor. I don't have that. I don't feel protected or safe in any way, shape, or form at this point.

We're sitting there. We're whispering to each other as to what we think it is, where we think it is. Let's see if we can hear footsteps. Can we hear anything? There's no noise at all. I start lifting up the blinds up in the bed area because that's where we're at. There's little blinds. I parted the blinds.

There are three ornamental cherry trees that are probably 10 to 15 feet tall along this area where we're parked. Okay, so you have the shadows of the tree, you know, with the darkness behind it. so you can see the difference in darkness from the tree to the dark of the actual night. There's a shadow standing right there next to the tree. And it is right at my level. I'm up in a fifth wheel. It's right at my head level less than two feet if that wall was very beat less than two feet away from me. I'm not dumb.

I knew exactly what it was. I almost had a coronary. At that moment, I don't know if Mark saw it because I'm not. I was the one looking out the window. He jumped up in his underwear, grabbed his knife, and goes flying out the door. And he's yelling Sutherland, this guy. He's yelling this guy's name that they're enemies. And I'm like, the hell.

He goes out the door. Now I'm there by myself with this thing that I don't want to look out the blinds to see if it's still there or now Mark's dead. But see, now I'm the chick in the car that ends up. dead, you know, that you see in all the movies. Like the horror movies. There you go. I am literally living the horror movie. I am the girl in the car.

My boyfriend just left to get killed. And that thing will be popping up through the hole in the floor any second now. I mean, I'm playing this all in my head. Probably, I mean, I have to be realistic. Three minutes go by. It felt like half an hour. Three or four minutes went by and the door flies open. I screamed because, again, I'm still playing.

that I'm going to die over and over. The door flies open, it's Mark, and he's standing there, and his face is white as sheet, and he's screaming at me at the top of this one. Did you see that? What the fuck was that? And he's, I mean, he's losing it. There's spit coming out of his mouth. He is absolutely gone.

He looks like, I mean, if you berserk, he went insane, like crazy. He lost his mind completely right there. These are my woods. He's screaming this at the top of these ones. These are my woods. I built that trail. I know where every root, every corner, I chase that M-F thing up the, do you know what it did? It went left.

And I'm just sitting there. I've got tears streaming out of my eyes because I'm scared. I don't know if he's going to kill me now. You know, because he's so freaked out. I don't know what to do. And he keeps saying it. It went left. I don't know what that means.

So finally, I said, so what? And he said, do you know what left is? No. He says it's sticker bushes. That's it. It's just sticker bushes. And he goes, and this thing went through it like it was nothing. Needless to say, he chased this thing.

Because in his infinite wisdom, he said, thought it was his rival enemy standing outside of the fifth wheel. And only upon chasing it through a trail he broke, he made, he, you know, he couldn't catch it. He said he could not. He couldn't even get close to it. He was at the bottom of the hill when it was in the middle of the hill and it went left. He fought clear his day. And I said, what did you see?

And he said it was black and it was huge. and I said, why did you continue to chase it? And I have to understand we're not having a conversation in any way. We're both at this point screaming our heads off at each other because we're both terrified. You know, reiterating this is kind of funny because it sounds so neatly packaged and it so was not neatly packaged at all. I've known my whole life that they are there, that they are real, and that I've never had a warm and fuzzy feeling when I'm around up. So they're not something I want to hang around with or give a hug to.

I'm kind of curious, Mark. What's your thoughts on some of the behavior that Dean has been talking about and through her experiences? Well, I mean, it fits into, if we're talking about a primate, especially a great aid that would be territorial, but they would also be curious, would have a big brain, relatively sophisticated cognition compared to other mammals. it fits into what we call the primate continuum of behavior. So it's not something that I would be suspicious about necessarily as far as the story goes. The stories that I hear that involve the playful, the trusting, the approachable, you know, primate that just kind of wants to play around and is curious and wants to say hi, That does not strike me as being something that fits because primates are very territorial, very protective of areas.

So if the behavior fits, what I haven't heard a whole line of the story is descriptions, physical descriptions, other than being big black shadow. So if there's any more detail on that, I'd be interested to hear that. Unfortunately. Expressing to us is very typical of these type of encounters. It sounds like a lot of the encounters happened at night So it's hard to get a good view of what you're seeing I mean the behaviors with the house

We've heard that so many How many times have you heard that will Oh a half a dozen at least in recent months Yeah in recent months Yeah I guess It's very very typical some of these accounts You know like I said You know I'm I'm pretty much obsessed

But I do this stuff by myself I don't know of any other databases. I don't know because I just kind of thought there was nothing out there. I really honestly thought that what was out there was just shit, to be absolutely honest, and not worth me even looking into. There's a lot of junk out there, that's for sure. Yeah, and so when I came across, you know, your guys' talk show on YouTube, I was just, I was floored. That night, now what did you and Mark do after, did you just, did you say?

No, no. no, we ended up staying. We stayed in that fifth wheel in that exact place for another five or six months, and nothing else happened. Not that I heard. Right. Exactly.

Why? I have no idea. Did you have any more encounters after that time period? Yeah. The only problem with the encounters, and I've listened to a lot of the episodes, and a lot of people have Class A encounters. I don't.

I get screamed at. That's pretty much what I get. In the primite world, what's the deal with the screaming? Now, a lot of the encounters that we hear are kind of like Dina's, where it comes up, it sees where they're at and it screams. We've talked to a lot of people, it's where they kind of all run into each other. One screams, or, you know, the people scream, and then it's like the Sasquot screams, and they kind of run in different directions.

Is that, like in Dina's case, if it's standing up, looking down, is it like, do you think it's a warning to the rest of them, or do you think it's an intimidation? What are your thoughts on it? Well, there's a whole range of vocalizations, and they all have kind of different meanings and have different contexts. So it's kind of impossible to say exactly what it was doing, you know, for sure. but it's certainly within reason to suggest that it was either a threat, a threat vocalization, just a simple surprise vocalization, which could have been, which humans have to, could have been a vocalization to the rest of a troop.

So it's difficult to say, but again, I think kind of the key thing is there, it's what you would expect, right? So even though we don't know the full context in and what it was doing, if you're going to suggest that that's what she encountered, then that's certainly within what you would expect and using other primates as an analogy. And maybe that was, that they were there and then they moved on,

and that's why they didn't hear or experience anything further. It kind of makes sense because nobody had been staying in that fifth wheel for obvious reasons with a hole in the floor. And Mark and I only moved into it. It was during the, it was late spring early. summer. And I know that because there was no hole in the floor, or there was a hole in the floor. And there's, you know, the only reason that it was okay to stay in there is that it was warm enough at night that we wouldn't freeze our tushes off. Thank you for coming on, Dina. We really do appreciate it.

Thank you. Thanks very much. I'll keep you guys posted if anything else comes up. Yeah, please do. Yeah, I will. Definitely. And thanks for being there. You guys are doing a great job. I actually love your show. Oh, thank you so much Thank you. See, ahead. Well, Woody and I went out to the Brown property. I've never seen so much and heard so much going on in one place.

So we get out of the car. John and Sarah are kind enough to walk us around the property. As we start walking around the property, we stop in this one area, and it's not a great, it's not a great place to cast track. There's so much foliage on the ground. But in a few areas, there is, there's mud. and Woody goes, hey, look a footprint. And we look down and right in the mud, right in front of us, there's this footprint.

And we all kind of stop, we look at it. And Woody's like, hey, look over here, here's another footprint. So we go walk over and start looking at that one. I'm telling Woody, hey, let's get pictures of these footprints. About the time he pulls out his phone, off to our right, and it's in really dense brush. there's a bobwire fence around this other outside of John and Sarah's property. And we hear this vocalization. And it kind of sounded like the Yip-E-Ler Sarah has.

It was going, yep, yep, yep, yep. But it sounded really deep, and it sounded just odd, just odd sounds. So we kind of walk over to that area, and we're listening and it stops. we start walking up the this bar barbed wire fence and the only way you can describe it is it was like monkey chatter we'd hear monkey chatter

kind of off in the brush and I kind of looked back at Woody and I'd point over in that area and he'd stop and he'd listen and it was like just constant kind of like monkey chatter it was just real the vocalizations we were getting was just kind of

you get a real short chatter and then it would stop and then you'd get a real short chatter and it'd stop And as we walked up this fence line, that's what we were getting. We're getting this constant kind of like, I guess, monkey chatter. Just different chatter going on, but it'd be kind of off about 70 yards from us. It seemed like it paced us and kept about 70 yards away, and we'd hear this chatter going on.

As we start walking around the property, I noticed, I was kind of called BS on six structures whenever you see them on Facebook. But they kind of have that going on on their property. but it's more primitive than what you see on Facebook. On Facebook and all these other sites, you see all these elaborate stick structures. That's not really what they have going on there. It's definite stick structures, but it's more like in Sarah's case,

and I kind of pointed it out to her, it's almost like it was kind of creating a blind, like a deer blind, and they were getting close, like you'd have one, and then you'd walk 30 feet, and you'd have another one sitting there, and you'd walk 30 feet,

and you'd have another one sitting there. But the odd thing, thing is it was going in the direction of their house. So it's almost like it was sitting up these little stick structures kind of going in their direction. The other thing about the stick structures was on a lot of them, I'm talking six, seven inch branches that were snapped and put, you know, up against trees. And I went to lift one of them off. And this thing had to weigh about 200, at least 200 pounds. Like I could barely lift it up off this tree. We kept seeing all these weird structures. So we leave that area. We go down to this area. I think Sir and John call it the

bone yard, but it's where they always find bones that have been stripped of all the flesh. And I picked one of them up, and it looked like someone with the person's, like big molars, had been kind of chewing on the bone. Now, it could have been another animal, but to me it looked like a mouth wrapped around it and was kind of chewing on the bone. The bones weren't broken, but they were definitely all stripped of flesh, were kind of in this one area. area on their property, almost like something sits there and eats. So we walk through the property and there's this open field on their property. When you see it at first, it looks level, but it's not, it's kind of got these dips and, you know, where like there was old rivers that went through

there. So it would be a great place to hide out there if you want to lay down. But we walk all the way through this field and on the other side of their property is the Chehalis River. We go up next to the Shehalis River and it's like a toddler. it was like a toddler crying or a toddler, just a real weird, it sounded like a monkey trying to mimic like a toddler crying. And that's the only way to describe it. That's what it sounded like. And I look back at Sarah and Woody's faces like his eyes are wide open and Sarah's eyes are wide open. And we're kind of looking down on the river. And so I called down to the river.

Just maybe I misheard it. maybe it was a person down there, and there was no one, no response back. But I swear there was almost like a monkey doing like a toddler cry, or trying to mimic some sort of toddler cry. But all day long we were getting these vocals. I would say probably every 15 to maybe 20 minutes, but they were 70 to 200 yards away from us. So it was never really close to us.

But it's like constant all day long. It was non-stop vocals. As soon as the sun goes down, we go back and we sit around the fire. And as it's getting dark, the coyotes start up in the background. And then we hear this just, whoa! I mean, and it just held it for this long, like a lion roaring. But like a lion roaring and then holding it for, God, it seemed like forever. It probably held it for good, kind of like we'd be saying, 30 to 45 seconds.

It just held this long roar. And then all the coyotes just got quiet. Probably 15, 20 minutes later, we hear this just, whoa, it just goes off again. Again, at last probably 30 seconds, 45 seconds. All through the night, we would hear, you know, just weird. You know, Woody and I and John were walking around. I heard a whoop. We heard screams.

There were some screams out there. We get up in this tree stand with his night vision camera, or not night. It's a thermal. And John's panning the open field. And he goes, hey, check that out. There's a heat signature out there. Like standing in the field. So I put my eyes on it.

I looked through the thermal. Sure enough, there's like a person kind of standing out in the field like a blob squatch. The thermal couldn't zoom in on it. And it was probably a good 200, 300 yards from us. So we all get down and we're walking through the forest and we're well armed. And we get out to the open area to where we see where this heat signature was. and as we start walking towards it, we get this chatter off to our left.

But it sounded a little bit closer than what it had been all day, but we get this weird chatter off to our left. So like idiots, we all stop, and we all take the thermal off the heat signature, and we're scanning the field trying to find out where this chatter's coming from off to our left. Scan the field, scan the field, couldn't see anything. So we go back to look at the original heat signature, and it's gone. Whatever standing the field took off.

John and Sarah, they have a lot of stories about their property and their grandfather, where their house actually sits. Their grandfather had a fish shack there. And the kind of going on with Dina's story, these things would come open, break open the fish shack, steal the fish. And the grandfather and the Sasquatch didn't have a great relationship because they kept stealing his fish, breaking his shack. But everyone around that area views it as the same as like a bear or a cougar or. or everyday type of animal. No one, it's not like a huge mystery to the people that are living in this area. It's like after a while, like John and Sarah, it's almost like living next to a train track.

You never hear the train after a while. But being there, I was just like constant vocals going on. And I was just kind of curious on your take and you're, you know, with the whole primate. I should have snapped pictures of the trees to kind of show you what I was talking about. Yeah, the tree. structures, the six, humans are the only primates for shelters, shelters, I should say.

I mean, other than nests, right? So we know that gorillas and some other primates create nests. But as far as structures to keep out elements and so on or to hide themselves, as far as we know, primates only use kind of what already exists in nature. They don't necessarily build things. But again, you know, there's no way to say possible.

I mean, certainly with the relatively big brain, flexible, generalized limbs with multiple things are possible as far as that goes. It's interesting that you mentioned the fish sack check because what I was thinking, before you back to it, I was kind of thinking to myself, you know, if you have a group of these things that are living there, that are staying there and they choose to stay there or not to stay there, you know, I was thinking, well, I wonder what it is that's keeping them there at the risk of being discovered or having a confrontation or whatever, but kind of a consistent source of protein like fish, which is a huge protein source and an easy protein

sources, somebody else had to catch it, would certainly want to keep a group around. It also made me think of other interactions that humans have with primates as far as, and you have baboons, South Africa that are, you know, breaking in people's cars and stealing things. So, I mean, primates definitely have learned to exploit human culture and human batsets. You know, it's something that probably want to just kind of apologize just for a second, just for being so kind of focused on primates because it would be my assumption that if these things, you know, if they're real and, you know, you've seen them and other people have seen them, I have not.

But if someone is going to suggest that they're real, then as an anthropologist, it fits in the whole order primate to me. And so that's my focus. And so if it seems narrow, that's my expertise, and that's kind of what I go off of. and if they are real, then there's no reason to put them anywhere else than in the order of primate. All the phenotypic, the physical descriptions and behavior fits squarely in there. As far as the vocalizations go, again, vocalizing is a huge part of primate behavior. Primates evolved first in arboreal environments where you have trees, a lot of dense foliage, the canopy,

the multiple levels of the canopy, and even though they have good vision, color vision, stereoscopic vision, with depth perception, in a dense vegetation environment, you can't predators that are coming from down below,

from up above, you can't see all the other species. And so, you know, vocalizations are very, very important. And so they have multiple, not just, you know, a small range of vocalizations, but a very large range.

The Gwynens, of Africa have vocalizations for every different kind of predator and these are volatizations of danger from the air in the form of an eagle or the form of a, and if that environment means dealing with the humans and what they bring and what the threats are, they're not necessarily going to really adapting to these markings are the West was talking about these stick structures or X's. I mean, they're very simplistic markings, but there's a group of three, what they will probably grow and scream occasionally and they know the differences.

And Wes, you said that's, that's an A-don't. Yeah, no, one thing I wanted to say, Mark, is I love that you're going on the, you know, with the primate side of it. So I don't feel like it's short-sighted at all because that's what I'd love to hear. What I saw, I think, is a primate. I mean, it definitely fitted kind of a large champ or an oversized ape or they just walked and acted different than any monkey I've ever seen. But, yeah, on their property with these stick structures, Will's right, they have this one area on the edge of their property, and there is like kind of a big X.

Obviously, I'm reading into it being an X, but that's kind of the formation of the stick structure. And the rogue males, or they think that are rogue males, there's almost like another group over on the other side of this, on the other side of the Chehalis River. and they never cross over into where John and Sarah talk about this family group being in this one area. They just kind of, they'll come up to the edge of that kind of where these stick structures are. And I'm first to be skeptical about stick structures. I kind of called Biazza until I went out to Sarah and John's place and saw it firsthand. But these other group, and she has lots of recordings from both groups, they never really come into each other's territory. or they never really cross paths,

but they'll come on the edge of kind of where the six-shirts are at, and they'll scream and yell and calls all kind of hell at night and sometimes during the day. Definitely with primates there is, especially, well, for example, chimpanzees, there definitely is to their territories, you know, the home range, which would be the entire territories in the core area, where most of the resources are found where the females and the infants would be, spin most of their time.

And there's definitely, so there's definitely an edge to that home range, and that's where the males of the group patrol around, right, to make sure that there's nobody, you know, take their resources. So, you know, it doesn't, you know, and of course the people,

the, I almost said people, that's how into this I am, the other chint that would be threatening for resources would a lot of times be bachelor males that themselves don't have mates, and so they need to displace an alpha, that kind of thing. So there is a continual threat of the kind of the core group being threatened by others from

outside the group, from outside the home range that are trying to come in and displace mail and to kind of take over. So, I mean, but I've not heard that there's any kind of artificial or constructed demarcation for the edge of that home range. is just kind of a known line or known area. So it's all very, very interesting, and it's certainly worthy of further investigation, but it would be unique,

but on the other hand, the whole idea of a Sasquatch Bigfoot is unique, right, in private. So we can't be completely dogmatic about it and say, well, we only see it in gyms, therefore we would only expect it, you know, this range of behavior and in a softwatch. So we have to leave room for the possibility of unique, unique behaviors or characteristics

because what we're talking about is, as far as we know, very unique. You know, it's interesting, too, about the, you know, the Males Patrol are males, and that really support, and the males being seen. Well, yeah, that brings a very interesting point when it comes to the whole evolution of bipedality of walking on two legs, and that is just the theory of provisioning. And that is that a male who may not necessarily have been the biggest and the strongest and the most virulity with the ability to walk on two legs, that individual had the ability to travel a distance and bring back resources or provision to a female and thereby attract that female as far as. So that would certainly get females and infants in a confined area while the males who are competing for them, you know, rather than that really doesn't make.

I can't remember if Sarah said that they have ever seen the female. I don't think that they have. They've heard her, but they've never seen her. And every one of them that they've seen has always been a male. I was completely shocked when I went out there. Just a lot of the monkey chatter, too. A lot of the weird, you know. It's a treasure house and behavioral.

The thing, the key that would make it most useful, unfortunately, is to verify that that is what, in fact, is the source. source of all the activity, which, you know, I mean, I have no reason to disclaim it or whatever. I have no experience of it myself, so I can't say. But it is, it's a treasure troe, but it has to be put in context. I mean, so my, my profession or my, you know, my main field of anthropology is forensic anthropology, and so I'm, you know, constantly looking at forensic cases and looking at the evidence that's before me.

and unfortunately that really colors the way I look at things and think of things. And so even though I think that's a treasured of evidence, to me it's like the thing that I just really kind of pine for is being able to connect it definitively to something. So then we could say, oh, now we can study and try to figure out what the different localizations are and what the strict strict structures mean and all that kind of stuff. But again, that's for kind of people like me who were kind of locked in, unfortunately, to this way of thinking. that's kind of our burden to bear and others are a bit more free to speculate. But it's just really hard for me to do that. Yeah, no, I hear you on that. Tetchermaniac, basically.

Yeah, I mean, because it's the main thing with the vocalizations, right? I mean, I can say that, you know, I'm not attributing this to you in the least. I'll just speak completely for myself, but I can hear something weird in the woods that I don't recognize. And I'll say, wow, that's not anything I've ever heard before, therefore it must be something different. But you have to weigh that against the catalog within my head, which actually may not be that broad, right? So, you know, things like vocalizations, I'm really wary about, not because I doubt people hear things, but because I, you know, I just, the catalog of vocations that are in the average person says, I've never heard that before. Therefore, it must be a this or that makes me a little nervous. But again, I'm locked into, and I'll admit it, I'm locked into a rather narrow focus.

Even with footprint, the animal, more concrete because you can look at the context to measure it physically. But then you can also look at the context of it. I mean, is it a bare footprint in the middle of nowhere and kind of a weird, going in a weird direction? I mean, that's that, again, not that maybe you could look, you need to look further there.

Mark, I wanted to, Tashka, I'm going to beat this like a dead horse. When you hear some of the vocals, and I realize you have a very scientific mind, but when you hear some of the vocals, Have you heard any of the audio that Sarah had? I don't think. I don't know, Will, if you send me that or not.

You send me something. I'm sure for the same to you, but I can resend them to you. I'll play one for you, Mark. So here's kind of what we heard as we're walking around. And I realize that could be a person. But, yeah, and for just listening to it, you might think it'd be a person. But I'm telling you, when you go to the property and keep in mind, I had an AR-15 in my hand.

And Woody had a, you know, I mean, John's got plenty of guns, so if someone's going to play games, it's very, very dangerous out there. But we heard that kind of stuff going on throughout the day. Well, think about it for a second. You know, you said that could be a person, right? So that's pretty important thing to say. I mean, because I was thinking of the same thing as you're playing it. That could be a person as opposed to, wow, that sounds like a coyote or wolf or. or this or that. It could be a person. Well,

vocally speaking, except for maybe a deeper thorax and so on, what you would the vocalization, the sound of especially of a yell or a screech or something from one of these things should be relatively similar to a

person. It's not identical, but relatively because you're talking about something very similar, you know, similar vocal tracks and similar, you know, the shape of the throat and the thorax and everything. It should sound kind of like a person. So, again, that to me is a clue that you're, you know, again, I would not personally rule out some other mammal, but that would also, you know, that also is suggestive that you might have something that needs further looking, right? So, I mean, I agree.

I thought in person when you're playing that, and so that doesn't just count anything. Well, no, no, and that's what I thought when I heard it first, except for we would hear it. So out on their property, there's no place for, in order to actually. actually get to where we're walking around on their property, you kind of have to go through their property to get back there. And we'd hear it about 70 feet from us or 70 yards from us. We'd hear that going off. And then we'd walk over to another side of the property and we'd hear that identical, that type of noise being directed at us. Yeah, the context is important there too.

Yeah, no, I agree. And it's really, really interesting. And it sounds to me like you have an area that at least would be fruitful for the looking. And if you think, in my way, so if you think that, you know, if one of the alternatives in the whole globalizations is a person, then in addition to kind of what's making it, what you also want to try to do is eliminate the possibility that it is a person. And I'm not sure how you would do that or, you know, I don't know necessarily would go into that without being there. But, you know, that would be another way to approach it also. But yeah, I agree, and that's very, very interesting vocalizations, very primate. Yeah, a lot of it was mainly, when we're out there, a lot of it was like the roars,

or we'd get the whoops, or we'd get, it seems like when nightfall came, it was more of an animalistic type sound, and during the day it was more of that kind of weird chatter in different directions. But it seems like as soon as nighttime came, it was more animalistic, like lion roaring going off, the screaming. It would just seem more animalistic type behavior at night. I wonder if it wasn't like when you and I were talking earlier. It hassled me in the whole thing.

And I've, I can't have talked to just melduring about this. I think I emailed with Cliff about it, Derek and a little bit. When finally big first came out, I used it in my class as a lesson in critical thinking. not very one of the things that really baffles me about the whole thing is that if we're talking about something that's nocturnal

that would be the only nocturnal grade eight ever that we know of we have other nocturnal primates the owl monkeys, nocturnal proscymians which are primates are nocturnal

but vast majority of monkeys and all the apes that we know of are diurnal, they're day So, I mean, I don't know how that plays into the vocalization differences, but I would, you know, but everybody seems to say that these things are nocturnal. And, you know, I kind of raise it my hand sheepishly and want to ask the question, you know, well, wait a minute, it would be the only one ever. Maybe the nighttime stuff is more autonomic, it's more emotional, it's more reactionary,

and the daytime stuff is more communication, socialization. vocal grooming, as we call it, because they're up and they're doing. I don't know, but I mean, I guess I'd probably be the only one in the world that says that I don't know how they could be nocturnal, but I probably don't know what I'm talking about there. Well, they actually seem to be at least as far as the history goes, equally active day and night. And I'm not sure how that exactly worked. That seems to be the case anyway. Yeah, I don't know that they're really nocturnal.

I don't know that they're really nocturnal. Because, I mean, Woody and I had our encounter at night, but that, It doesn't mean they're nocturnal. It could have been, I mean, hell, sometimes I'm up at 1 o'clock in the morning. It doesn't mean I'm nocturnal. So I don't know that they're necessarily nocturnal. But it seems like a lot of encounters do happen at night. Yeah.

Well, but if you're talking about the same organisms that are making the localizations during the day and during the night, it's reasonable to suggest that daytime ones would be different in register, in maybe even sound than the night ones. would be because you would expect activity patterns to be different in those periods. So that's kind of anecdotally an interesting and it's a good thing to find out. No, that's a good point. I'll tell you another thing that I thought was weird, Mark.

And again, this could have been a person, but they have this barbed wire fence. On the backside of their property where we're hearing the vocalizations, on the other side of that barbed wire fence, it's completely dense, dense forest. in there, someone had taken or something had taken this kind of a large branch, kind of a large stick, twisted it across the second barbed wire

on the barbed wire fence, pushed it up to the top barb wire fence and twisted it again. And then took another huge stick and did the same thing on the bottom. And so it made this huge hole in this barb barbed wire fence.

And what was actually going through that hole was huge. I mean, the only thing I compare it to is maybe a bear. I mean, it was huge. It looked like someone drove a bus, and it was going into this brush. You could tell something was coming in and out of this barbed wire fence. So I go up to the whatever put the stick and had kind of twisted the bar barbed wire fence,

and I'm thinking, well, I'll just untwist this, and then that'll make sense that a person did it. And I physically couldn't untwist it. Whatever put that barbar fence up and held it. it up with this and made this hole in this barbed wire fence, it had more strength than I did. And it's like I physically couldn't get it undone, but you could tell where the hole is in the fence, you could tell a large animal was coming in and out of there. And I was asking John and Sarah, and they theorize that's where they bed down is over on this. It's just, it's Native American land, but it's part of the Indian Reservation. But they think that they

bed down over in this area because that's where the bulk of the volkizations come throughout the day. But, you know, I mean, in the primate world, would that make sense that a primate would do something like that beyond, you know, us? Whatever did that, it has to have prehensual hands, first of all, just mechanically to do it. Okay, so that rules out, you know, most mammals. I mean, everything but primates, right? Now, a lot of cognitive studies have been done with primates with chimps, orangutans, you know, great AIDS. Duke University has done a lot of studies.

Cognitive studies of apes, you know, and what can you teach them? Can you teach them to manipulate little contractions just in order to get a food reward? And there'll be like these kind of these trick boxes that they have to kind of break into by either sliding doors left and right or up or down. or putting a stick inside a hole to push the door open, that kind of thing. And what they've found is that with a primate, it takes them longer to learn to do that. And you can try to teach them. You can show them how to do that. But in the end, they're going to try to, a lot of times they'll just try to find their own way to do it.

But the important point is it's been shown that they are absolutely able to manipulate objects, move things around in order to gain access to something or to get a food reward, something like that. So if I look at that behavior, that behavior, if somebody tells you, okay, well, that has to be human because, you know, no other primate could do that. If someone makes a statement that no other primate could do that, well, they're wrong. So that is complete, that is on that primate continuum of behavior. and chimps and zoos, not the chimps, but monkeys and apes and zoos, have done all kinds of clever things to get in and outright to manipulate the gates and things like that. So you can't take that and throw it out.

You know, you just, you can't. I mean, obviously, Occam's Razor suggests it's the most logical explanation was that a human did it. But again, to me, the more important thing is you can't rule it out. You can't look at that and say, oh, well, that means. therefore it has to be human. If what you're trying to determine is what primate did it, you have to say, yes, that's possible. Just the insight is awesome, man.

I really appreciate it. No problem. I mean, I appreciate the show. I was never into Bigfoot or Sasquatch, you know, really ever. And then I started watching the finding Bigfoot thing a number of years ago just because I was interested because I was teaching biological anthropology. and I wanted to just kind of peek at it for kind of as a voyeuristic exercise, I suppose, and then I just got really frustrated by it and started using the show in my class as kind of lessons in critical thinking.

But that also, by the same joke, and also made me look at it a little bit harder and just say to myself, well, this is interesting, it's certainly worthy of looking at. I don't know that I would ever do it, but certainly a worthy topic to look at. and with all the people that have seen things and all the catters, you know, I'm not prepared to say that everybody's a liar or doesn't know what they're talking about. What is your take on people report eyeshine? And I think Will and I have theorized that it depends on the light you hit them with.

Sometimes people report this red eye shine. Sometimes people report different color eyeshines. Most primates don't have eyeshines. Well, no, they can, no, just about anything can have a certain amount of eye shine. but it does depend on the light that's hitting it, right? The other thing to remember is this. In any species, in any organism, there's going to be variation, right? Variation, size, shape, color, variation in eishine.

You know, you can't necessarily take one color of eishine and you treat that to, you know, you can't make an eye shine index and say, it's this color, therefore, it's a mountain line or a bear or a black bear or a grizzly, right? Because there is a whole continuum of variation. You know, I don't have a problem with eyes shine. But what I, you know, we see, by the way, we see eyes shine all the time and we're taking pictures of people in their eyes, right? Their eyes light up weird ways. Because it's true.

The thing is, but the luminescent eyes, right, the illuminating eyes, the ones that are kind of generating their own light. That's ridiculous. Yeah, it is. I don't buy that either. Reflecting light, reflecting light, no problem with, you know, glowing red. That just is weird. Well, I guess I shouldn't ask if you think they have superpowers.

I'm just joking. You can ask if they have superpowers, and I guess my answer would be no, but then my next, well, my answer would be I don't know. But the next answer would be if they do, then I'm done with a conversation because you don't need a scientist. You need somebody else, right? That's not, you know. Yeah. So you're on the same side of the portal? Yeah.

Well, and in fact, that's why when I kind of first started looking at this just from an interesting standpoint, and I happened upon different podcasts, and someone was just so ridiculous, I couldn't stand for five minutes. And so when I found yours, I was kind of so excited, I actually emailed Will and said, gosh, I'm really excited about your podcast because you guys are looking at this from a natural standpoint. And you know, and you try to apply the anthropological perspective to a certain extent. and I was just so excited, and I was a little too excited, but anyway, I'm on the same side of the portal. I was thinking, Mark, there, my girlfriend was telling me about when she used to have this monkey, she called it a leaf monkey. I don't know if that's really the term, but they called it leaf monkeys. I guess they're a tiny little, I want to say in Borneo is where it was.

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, there's these little tiny monkeys that they have out there, and they had one as kind of a pet. and a lot of people talk about when they talk about Bigfoot or Sasquatch they talk about you know watch out for you know they like females the males like the females

and so they kind of refer to them a little bit like people but I think we tend to forget that primates aren't far off you know when I'm talking about primates like apes and monkeys but not really that far off from us but she had this little tiny she had this little tiny leaf monkey

it was a female and it had a thing for men, like it just loved men, especially hairy men. Like, it would climb on its arm, and it would, it's like cleaning the hairs. It's like picking the... Grooming, yeah. Grooming, yeah, grooming the... It would go in and groom the males. And she was telling me that it would do weird stuff, like it would copy people.

Like, it would put a cigarette in its mouth, and it let a cigarette hang out of its mouth. And it did that from watching people around it smoke. but it would always put a cigarette in its mouth and it'd walk around with it hanging out the side of its mouth. A lot of human-type traits and I think with Sasquatch, I think a lot of people maybe see some human-type traits and so I think that's why we think of them as people say they're people.

What I saw was an animal, it wasn't a person. But I think that's why we kind of equate, when you hear stories about different primates and different monkeys and chimps, I don't think people realize how close they are to us, and a lot of their, what they do is a lot of what we do. What are your thoughts? Well, yeah, I mean, they would have to be to a very great extent, right? I mean, that's kind of the whole idea of recognizing it as a primate, especially a, you know, hominemps, which is going to be the, you know, bipedal, you know, large, that's bipedal primate or not to be a large brain and so on.

So there's definitely going to be behaviors that are similar, I mean, from locomotion, obviously, to the sensibilities, the brain, the emphasis on learned behaviors, acquired behaviors, the emphasis on socialization. I mean, those are all primary things. And in the end, I mean, if you want to look out it this way, we're basically just bipedalates also, right? And somebody you want to look out that way, and, you know, it's okay to look at it that way. Yeah, I mean, you would not, if you have to say, and when I hear these stories, when I look at this story, I look at the story, I always kind of as an encounter. I always kind of measure it against normal, private behavior.

And it's strange people that want to make it something completely different and very different from humans. And it's just, it's going to look different, of course. If it's out there, it's going to look different, of course. But there's also going to be way more similarities than differences for sure. And it's just like chance. chimps, they're, you know, genetically they're very, very similar.

There's some very vast differences in the chimps, but there's also a lot of ways that are very similar. So, again, I would expect that. We're not talking about a bear. You're not talking about a dog or anything like that are very similar in behavior. And I'll have to say, it kind of reminds me, and Will,

I'm probably going to want your feedback on this, because it reminds me of a lot of shows that we've had, will you bring up the term, what is it called, anthropoporopor? Antroportism. Right, that's people place human characteristics on non-human species. There you go. Well, I think it's important, too, to understand that, you know, the kind of the term anthropomorphizing.

I mean, you know, the root of that term is Andropos, which basically taxonomically, biologically means, you know, a human, but also means a neighbor a monkey. So, I mean, well, I think of somebody anthropomorphizing somebody as something. I think of them, you know, attributing, you know, like you see fairy tales or folk tales or whatever, where they're talking or having things like that that are really, really human. That's what strikes me as an example for moreoverism. So it doesn't, I kind of look at it from a different perspective. I think it's okay to say, or it's, you know, psychologically it's sound to say that it's probably, it's sound to say that it's probably. Yeah, one of the things you mentioned, Mark, that kind of stuck with me is when you were talking about in India, have the monkeys go into the store and they jack stuff.

You know, they'll steal different stuff and they run out at the store. They'll run out with food. And, you know, we hear so many encounters to where, like John and Sarah's place, they used to have a fish shack where their house now sits, and the grand, the Sasquatch would actually go up and steal fish out of it. They knew that's where the fish was at and they'd break into it and steal a fish out of it. I'm wondering a lot of some of the behaviors that we hear, the more aggressive type behaviors to where we could.

hear them banging on people's houses or banging on windows, standing outside of people's windows, seeing them eye to eye and growling at them. I'm wondering if there's people who are where monkeys, chimps, apes, are the, you know, it's the animal that's around, like in India. I wonder if they have a lot of, if there's stories like that where primates come up to the place of their residence and do that type of behavior. Have you, I mean, have you heard of anything like that? Oh, well, sure, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, they try to scare off the occupants of a home, for example, by jumping in the window and making much of noise and throwing things around just so they can get access to the food and the resources. That's completely within the kind of suite of behaviors that those monkeys, those macaques and the other old world monkeys exhibit, you know, when they're dealing with humans. It's certainly, I mean, that's the thing about it. And that's why it's such a problem for societies over there.

There's really no fear. I mean, they literally have these groups of people that's their job to scare off the monkeys because it's just not an easy task. So there's very little fear trying to do with. Yeah, I've heard of the, I don't know what type of monkey it is or what type of, I think it was actually a monkey. I don't think it's a chimp. But don't they have problems with them trying to drag women off? I mean, I've read different news news. stories and I don't, you know, I want to know your opinion on it.

And I'm not really sure, and I apologize, I don't really know what type of primate that is doing this, but it's almost like they're, they come out and try and drag someone off. Have you ever heard of stories like that? Well, yeah, I mean, well, especially as it relates to aggression. And I've not heard of stories dragging them off for the purpose of holding them to be captive or not that. But it is a fact that, um, and Jane Gill used to talk about this, um, you know, in her, her research in her days at Gombay with the chance it was that herself and the female researchers that would get the most aggression from from a young adult and else you know they would get the rocks thrown at them they would get charged they would get the vocalizations and that was just because you know they were just smaller you know and they were smaller and so they were just trying to dominate over them so I mean dragging them dragging the I've never heard of that which would usually be there's a lot of moorings is for that kind of being among monkeys. And so if it does exist, there's, you know,

there are different reasons for it, but whether or not it's happening here and whether or not it's from there you jump off and say answer to that as yes it is. Yeah, it's interesting. You made me just think of another thing I wanted to get your take on. As far as more of the human-type behavior,

going back to that leaf monkey it was telling you about in Borneo, that was a female, and it loved males. and the main person who had it was actually a male. And a male human had, it was mainly his pet. And he went to actually kiss his girlfriend. And I guess this monkey went after their girlfriend, the bite her, almost kind of like a jealous.

I mean, I guess as a human, I'm saying jealous. I mean, who knows what was going through its mind. But it seemed like, as she was telling me the story, it was almost kind of like a jealous. it actually went and attacked this other female. And it had this weird thing with males. It just loved males. It loved hairy males. And I was kind of curious what you thought on if you've heard that type of behavior.

I guess it would be natural, wouldn't it be? Well, absolutely it would be because first of all, you have a couple things going on here. I mean, obviously the monkey recognized that the man is being dominant, right? The monkeys, all primates are social to one degree or another, but most of them are quite social. And in order to get along in a social group to figure out kind of where your place is and how to navigate through the group, you have to figure out who's dominant, who's submissive and so forth. So the monkey was by grooming and by, you know, showing, you know, her submissiveness and her willingness and so on. But then, of course, jealousy, just like unions, right? I mean, let's face it, you know, guys and gals, I can always speak for guys, guys, of course,

but, you know, sometimes we get jealous and we don't want it. We do why it's there. We try to control it. It's not helpful or good necessarily, but it's there, right? It's kind of wired in. Same thing with all the primates, right? We are wired to try to find our mate or our partner or to make our social bond because we're competing in a social environment. So absolutely makes sense to me that would happen.

Yeah, because one of the things, I know, let's just, Sarah, she talked about Sarah Brown. She talked about this younger male. She, you know, I think in the interview she said she felt like it has a crush on her. And I know a lot of people that were listening thought, oh, come on, really. But when she said it at the time, it really didn't strike me as odd. Because I've heard of these other stories like the one I just told you. And I've always thought that, well, they're not, you know, primates aren't, we're not all really that far apart when you think about it.

I mean, you know, when you see things like Cocoa, the gorilla that can do sign language, when you see different behaviors with chimps, you know, they're not, it's not really that far off. I would say they're more animal than we are. But in the overall grand scheme of things, the way they act, the way they behave, is not that different. Like we're talking about the screaming. People say, well, they came face to face with the Sasquatch. They screamed, and then it screamed, and they both ran the opposite direction. I mean, it kind of makes sense if being a primate that would probably happen. Yeah.

So what we say with the primates compared to humans, right, we look at the differences not being as not being quality or qualitative differences, but being quantitative differences. For example, you know, look at chimps make and they use tools. Okay. So they are on, they don't do it to the extent that we do, not even close, right? But they're there. Same thing with language. You can teach clinical sign language. The book and language, like we can't know.

So she's on the symbolic communication continuum, but she's not as far on it as we are. So it's not so much these behaviors are different. It's just because of our students. It's like the students have been, you know, you go through the drive through and you supersize it, right? So we'll give human language and we'll supersize it. The other, the head of the dynamics, you're still getting those things. It's not half those things, but just to have much less for the way. degree depending on the kind of part we're talking about.

I wanted to ask you while you were on the, I heard you mention. Yeah, so, yeah, the position of the hyoid in the throat, the length of the larynx, where it all kind of is situated in order to make a full, you know, the range of sounds that we make, you know, you have to have the apparatus, the vocal apparatus for it. There's also certain areas of the brain that you have to have, Broca's area and Berniceke's area. there's a big debate whether or not they have your bone has been good to choose genetics and they say no so it's very very very difficult to tell and it's debated all the time and then squads you would do the throat is in the right position we thought about a whole lot and I don't know how we'd even recognize

if and what they were using for tools but they probably do at some point that's it that's the thing about tools is tools go back two and a half million years at least to the same time period of Osphibritus Africanus. And Osprevigidicist Afrikaans was Averite. I mean, it had, as you looked at it in a phase of human, right? But at the same time period, we had, you know, and from there on, with the exception of the tools, homo habilis, homoerettus, homoer regaster, more tools, better tools, more sophisticated over time.

The art all had had the, and it's one thing I mentioned in the will, which is, it's kind of a pretty, if I was out in the middle of nowhere, and I thought, look, I found a pretty of human tool. Human must have made it. So, recently, just because of there's no other option, the option is to say,

oh, look, human was here and got the tool. Proof probably and that it. So the tools out there is absolutely these tools if they're out there. I don't, very interesting. And I just don't see how we can.

It was a very interesting thought, and I had to think about it from, I'm still thinking about it, you know, wondering how many times it may have come across something that was possibly done by one of these creatures

and I simply wouldn't have recognized it. Right, and you can actually use the same kind of analogy when we're talking about remains to a more limited. If you have an upright walking, you know, hominand, a lot of those bones, a lot of those remains that you find, are going to be, especially the long bones, are going to be very similar to ours except maybe in length and size.

But, you know, a lot of smaller bones, bones of the heel, the wrist, so on and so forth. Skull would obviously be very, very different, But, like, for example, I think to myself, gosh, I'm sure glad I don't do friends to be on the apology game or whatever. I mean, I see a lot harder because it's... I have a question. And I hate to go backwards, and I hate to, like, I'm not the sharp of stool in the shed. But, you know, we were talking a little bit, Will you had mentioned, and Mark, I believe it is, that said something.

As far as the way that the head or the larynx is formed as far as the Sasquatch being able to speak, it sounds like a human. But how do we justify all the people out there that say, hey, I heard it call my name. I've heard people out in the woods. I heard a baby cry. I heard a bird. And we hear all these different things about it sounds like it can somewhat speak as a human, but now you're telling you that it's physically impossible. And I'm not trying to be an asshole.

I'm just asking because I don't understand, you guys. I'm not sure. And I can be way off. But can you all know understanding that? Here's kind of the dividing line there. I mean, as far as... And they do sometimes where a cave, you know, maybe just the next... The Indians used to come.

I guess I do and I don't. And maybe I'm looking too deep into it. But I think if you can make the sound of something that sounds like something that's saying it to you, it's... You have the ability to do it. I don't know. From my perspective, and I mentioned this earlier, but, you know, from my perspective, and it's not a personal thing.

I'm not just standing anything. interviewer that I've experienced or saying by means. Personally I'm bound by kind of a different set of rules which would basically say that, you know, making a sound, it sounds like an animal.

Why am I going to one animal mimicking another animal instead of now, I'm not saying that doesn't happen or can happen, I'm just saying from my perspective, and I mentioned this earlier also about localizations. Well, I can think, well, this is a thing, Mark, and I'm not trying to let you. I can take a ton of a reasons why another animal would be mimicking another animal.

Right. No, but I agree with that. But that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is if I hear the sound, like I hear a wolf, right, there has to be a compelling reason why I think that is a, it's not a wolf, but something trying to sound like a wolf, right? And I'm not saying there's not a reason. I'm just saying to me that, you know, the simplest answer is,

usually the right one and that is you're here. There are other reasons, you know, more power to you. But I think that part of the issue that I get into and you know, this again, this is just me, it's not a personal thing that, you know, we, you know, it's confirmation

bias, right? It's, again, the whole finding Bigfoot thing became a real lesson critical. Don't find what you want to find. You will find the way to massage the data into what you want to do. Some things are just going to be really difficult to explain away they're going to be really compelling evidence.

Then what you want them to be. But, you know, the realizations we heard earlier that's true. I think what you're saying earlier with regard to, and I think a lot of people get hung up on this, and I'm by no means an expert, but in my mind when I hear people say, like, speech, there's a difference between you, me, Will, and Mark sitting here talking and having intelligent conversation than there is for if I hear like two Russian guys talking, and I think I picked out Boris as the name. And if I'm going to, from what I've heard, I say, hey, Boris, you know, I'm just kind of going off of what I heard.

It doesn't mean I could sit down and have a conversation with them. But I think that's kind of what people, when they talk about them mimicking, because we've heard it so many times where, for instance, people call for their dogs at night. And then they, over time, they hear that same almost like someone calling for the dog off in the distance, They can't quite, it doesn't quite sound right. It sounds like a monkey trying to call for the dog, almost like it's heard it over and over again. And I think that's the difference when we talk about language and when we talk about something being like Willa sing,

a ventriloquist, something that can copy it. And if they do have that capacity to make those sounds, it's more or less making sounds. It's not that, you know, in Sarah's instance, where she has it recorded like the same saying Sarah. I don't think it actually I think maybe it's heard John called Sarah one too many times

and if they do have that ability it's able to mimic that Sarah you know that that, you know, and maybe not but that's what I think of when you know so I think people get caught up on language and being able to mimic something that they've heard because even in the primate world Mark

the primates do this monkey chatter right? Sure, yeah. Yeah. I was going to say that I was going to mention that as well Oh, go ahead. So different primates will chatter back and forth, right, right, Mark? I mean, depending on what type of primates, but they do do that chattering back and forth. Yes, vocalizations are very important in the private world for sure. So a good example of that was – I was just going to say a good example that is the gelada bedroom,

of the highlands of Ethiopia. These are – they're the world's own grazing monkeys. They basically, they're basically – they're for their primate teeth, so they're not skipping the grass with their teeth. They're pulling with their hands. and putting in their mouth, right? So they shuffle around on their butts and they pull the grass

and once they get enough grass in their hands, they put in their mouth into it. But they live in massive, huge tricks, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of individuals in the grasslands, the highlands of the field. But normally, veterans especially, would be, she came through grooming to a very large extent.

If I'm grooming you, that means I'm giving deference to you. That means I'm trying to form a bomb. You're my friend, whatever. But with these jolada bemoons, their hands are so busy pulling the grass that they have developed a way to, you know, or something that they call vocal grooming, which is they chatter constantly. So, I mean, you know, go up on YouTube or something. I'm not sure where you could find it. And look at, you know, look at Jolada baboons and their vocalizations,

and they just chatter all day and day long. And so clearly they're saying something to them is meaningful, and clearly it's being interpreted meaningfully. because they're doing it. If it wasn't working, they wouldn't be doing it. So I don't know how nuanced it is. I don't know if you could say there's a syntax fair and a grammar and all that.

I kind of doubt it. But yeah, it's definitely a chatter. It's not just an autonomic kind of grunt or a howl or bark. It is a continued chatter, and they're doing it all day long. So, yeah, absolutely. You know, like, if people talk about samurai chatter, things like that, I mean, that's completely within

what, you know, what one would say is reasonable. Another thing about, that's fun of point out about vocalization, even though I'm saying that I'm skeptical, in many instances, I'm doing it only because I myself haven't had those experiences,

but one of the things that kind of keeps interested in this topic, probably more than anything else, more than any physical evidence or anything else, just kind of the number of encounters, the number of normal people that are saying, wow, you know,

this is what happened. And so I'm not prepared to discount on anybody else's stories if I wasn't there, you know. So I'm not trying to discount those experiences or those interpretations of the experience. Apology and technological scientific, which is not very sexy and maybe not very satisfying. So Mark, let's say, for instance, you've seen Sasquatch. You've seen this 1,000-pound damn dirty ape out there running around, right? And you've seen it firsthand.

So when you hear this, you might stop and go, hmm, that's possible. If I just Yeah It's okay to Hey Mark It's okay to laugh Because I'm laughing I thought

I thought it was funny It's okay to laugh brother All right All right You could You could tell Wes He's a jerk at any time And it won't bother me

Well I don't know Maybe I'm taking Seriously But I mean But it does make a point though I mean You know

If I saw some making that noise, I would definitely be in a different situation, no doubt about it. Yeah, because I'm like, you, the samurai chatter and those sounds have always bothered me. I haven't been so quick to discount them. I know a lot of people discount them right off the bat, but I haven't been so quick to discount them, just hearing the whole story and hearing the context behind them and knowing about the different sounds, but it bothers me to hear that. I mean, it just really bothers me to hear that for some reason.

It just seems, it's kind of like I watched the, the, dawn of the planet of the apes the other day. And you know how disturbed? It's almost just as disturbing to see a big foot walking around on two legs as it is to watch that movie and to see these monkeys walking around on two legs. It's more disturbing. Yeah, it's disturbing to see them up walking around like we walk around. And it's disturbing to hear kind of the language.

I mean, it's real primitive among the damned dirty apes, but it's real primitive, but it's still a, it's just disturbing. Like the one Caesar, he tells him to go, and he screams go because these two humans kind of run into each other. And, you know, one of them makes a yell or something and the rest of the primates come, the rest of the monkeys come running. And then Caesar tells him to go. It's just really disturbing to see that. The reality is, though, that, I mean, the earliest, you know, bifeds were basically, like I said before, just chimps that will walk off. monkey legs, but they look almost exactly like it. So, yeah, I mean, so, so, so if it can happen

once, you know, if you say it can't happen again, and certainly it would be very disconcerting to. Yeah, I guess I'm more comfortable seeing a monkey like in a clown suit at the circus, doing a little dance for peanuts, but when you see them up walking around and it's a little bit too much like us, it, for some reason it just bugs me. It just bothers me to see the same type of behaviors we have as humans. I wanted to ask you, there's two questions. One, what is the in the primate world, when we're talking chimps, we're talking aides, what is the best way do you think to bring an animal in like that when you're

out of the field? If you wanted to draw them in to you, what would be the best route to go to actually get an animal like that to come into you instead of having you go out to it? it wouldn't be making your presence, no, that's for sure, right? It's something that would interest the guitars and all that kind of stuff. It's just silly, that what was true. Yeah, I mean, I hate to bring that, but it really is silly. But, I mean, you know, again, Jane Goodall, when she first got the gondos, she couldn't

find a chance for, but it turns out they were there the whole time. They just were not making themselves known until they knew that they didn't have to get some sort item that they want, like the example we gave him. Some item or some food item or something that would draw them in. I wanted to ask you one last thing. And I don't know, I'm sure you know the answer to this, but in a lot of encounters, people talk about the grunting. In the primate world, if we're, now let's take Sasquatch out of the picture.

We're talking about apes. We're talking about chimps, different primates. The grunting, to me, that doesn't really seem like. aggressive behavior. I don't know if it's more of when I hear encounters with Sasquatch, and I can be way off on this, but it almost kind of seems like it's an acknowledgement when it grunts, when it's grunting towards someone, or it's kind of like, hey, I'm here. In the primate world, is that when you talk about different primates, when they grunt, what type of community, and I realize it might be different within different species.

But generally speaking, what is the grunting in the primate world? What type of communication is that? The range of emotions and crime, especially the higher ones, you know, the range of emotions are huge, right? So vocalizations can have a lot of different meetings. I mean, it could be an aggressive thing. It could be just an acknowledging thing. When you live in a social group or when you're wired to be social,

you know, you need to be able to acknowledge other people that are other active people here. But you need to be able to acknowledge other things like a member to the group. So it could be acknowledgement. It could be aggressive. it could be, you know, just communication, like I, you know, especially given the fact that different circumstances would, well, absolutely, sure, absolutely could, yeah, yeah. So, so it's, it's, the language, the language capabilities, like, that it's,

complex enough that, yeah, you can't just, you can't, you know, the key is primates, the behavior is more learned than it is instinctual, so there's some hard wiring, but on top of the hardwiring as a whole, and those, a lot of those are determined just by social group or environment or circumstances, predators, prey. So who knows? I mean, if these things are out there, they may have even developed grunts or fruits or some sort of obligation. It's really complex, but on the same token, it's self-sabony.

Well, I can't think you have. We really appreciate you coming on, Mark. Yeah, for sure. I appreciate it. It's my pleasure, and if Sierra D.V. if you have been all, you're happy to talk about what I do with you. Yeah, thank you so much, Mark. All right.

Well, you guys, take care. And I want to thank you ever all our guests tonight for joining Fast Watch Chronicles. We'll see you again next week. Thanks for joining. Have a good night. Keeping across the country faster than the coronavirus and wagering week is your antidote. I'm Tom Barton, and I'm a veteran sports analyst and respected sports handicapper who will help build ESPN's brand. I've been recognized and awarded by Pro Football Weekly and gaming today.

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