Sasquatch Chronicles - SC EP:659 Where the Footprints End

Episode Date: May 31, 2020

Timothy Renner and Joshua Cutchin will be my guests. They co-authored the book Where the Footprints End: High Strangeness and the Bigfoot Phenomenon, Volume I: Folklore. It is available on Amazon.

It looked like somebody was bent over and had their head in the window of the deer blind. It either heard me or smelt me, and he pulled his head out of the tent and stood straight up. That shocked me. They don't make people that big. The way it moved, almost as if it was gliding across the beach. I've never seen anything moved like that in my life. What's... What's...

They were screaming at each other in gibberish. It sounded like a language and they were chuntering away back and forwards, back and forwards, back and forwards. I know what a bear looks like and there is no way on this planet but what I saw were bears. What's... What are you reporting? Get somebody out here. What's going on now, sir? That son of a bitch is about six foot nine, I don't know.

Do you see a man, sir? Yes, I'm looking right here. Uh-oh. I'm Robert Edgington from Northwest Indiana, and you're listening to Sasquatch Prodigus. Welcome to the show, everyone. Thanks for being here tonight. Got a great show planned for you tonight. I accidentally released.

Friday night's show was a member-only show, and I moved to a new platform, and my fat fingers hit the wrong button. So apologize to the members, to everyone else, enjoy the show. So I hope your weekend's going well. Tonight we're going to be talking with Timothy Renner and Joshua Cutchins. And everyone knows Timothy Renner from his podcast Strange Familiar's. If you get a chance to check it out. But the guys wrote a book.

And the book is called Where the Footprints End, High Strangeness and the Bigfoot phenomenon, Volume 1 folklore. A very cool book, actually. There's a lot of weird coincidences from the past. up until today. And we're going to talk a little bit about that tonight regarding Sasquatch, some of the weird things that people talk about, and how does it relate to the past?

If you've had an encounter and you'd like to be on the show, shoot me an email. My email address is Wes at Sasquatch Chronicles.com. And if you get a chance to check out Sasquatch Chronicles.com, you can become a member and get additional shows. Let's jump into it tonight. I want to welcome to the show, Timothy Rinner, Tim, thanks for coming on.

Oh, Wes, thanks for having me back. You know, Susquech Chronicles is my favorite. So I'm always, always happy to be here. Yeah, I appreciate it, brother. And we'll also have Joshua Cutchin. It's okay if I call you, Josh? Oh, yeah. Just don't call me late for dinner.

Yeah, welcome to the show, Josh. I really appreciate you being here, man. It's an absolute pleasure. I'm a long-time listener, and this is, as I was mentioning to you before, This is like the last item on my podcast bucket list of places that I've been a long-time listener and haven't spoken yet. So thank you for having me on here. It's a pleasure. Yeah, no, no.

The pleasure's mine. Thank you again for coming on. And we're going to talk about your guys' book. I bought it off of Amazon. I know I could have gotten a free copy, but I don't believe in people giving away their work for free. So I wanted to get my own copy. And actually, I was just telling Tim and Josh, I love the book. I love the cover.

It's called Where the Footprints. ends, high strangeness, and the Bigfoot phenomenon, Volume 1 folklore. The little I've read into it, just because I haven't had a chance to really sit down and read the whole book, I was really impressed with it, guys. It's very well put together. Who wants to start? What made you guys kind of write this book together? Well, I started it, and I looped Josh in because Josh had just finished writing his last book, which was about alien abduction and the changeling phenomenon in fairy lore, which is called Thieves in the Night. There you go, Josh. A little plug for you. Appreciate it. And I had just begun the idea for this book, and I knew I wanted to write something

about all the strangeness that kind of goes along with Bigfoot. I didn't quite know how I was going to do it, but I knew I needed help. I knew there was so much there. Very short, after getting into it. I knew there was so much there that I was going to need help. Josh and I have been on several podcasts together. I don't think we'd even met by this time, but we'd been on different podcasts together and we'd had email exchanges and I'd send him my books and he'd sent me his books and I liked his writing and I knew it was somebody I could I could trust to put their heart into the project. So I asked Josh, like you want to climb on board on this and thankfully he agreed and it changed definitely it's a different book in a better way that now

that josh is involved i was going to write it more as a almost as an encyclopedia of weird stuff associated with bigfoot like you know a is for albatwich b is for whatever you know c w is for witches g is for glowing eyes you know et cetera and josh uh really had a you know kind of a different angle he brought to it and i think it ends up being a a better book for that so i'm glad you Ed, we sort of changed the format. But, yeah, there was just so much weird stuff, Wes, that it can't be ignored. Yeah, I agree. Josh, what kind of weird stuff would someone find in the book regarding Sasquatch?

What kind of odd things have you come across that? You thought, you know what we need to put this in the book? Well, there are some things in the book that I wanted to address that have always bug me. As somebody who believes that there is an objective reality to things. like the Sasquatch phenomena, I still really do sympathize when people talk about not finding a body, people talking about, you know, they're not being anything that we can really call, you know, proof with a capital P. So there are certain things that always sort of like made me really question the physicality of this

and things like cloaking, you know, turning invisible, shape shifting, being bulletproof. So what we really tried to do, Tim and I, is to sort of take a look at this. Sasquatch phenomena through a bunch of different folkloric lenses in this volume. So while there's not dedicated chapters per se to things like Bulletproof Bigfoot or, you know, Bigfoot phasing through fences and stuff, they're nested within these different chapters. But what became apparent is that there are certain traditions, certain modalities of thinking that just really haven't been explored in terms of the Bigfoot phenomena. You know, there's, you look at the most attention that Bigfoot has gotten.

And it's typically from people who are proponents of the flesh and blood hypothesis, the idea that Bigfoot is some sort of undiscovered relic primate. But whenever those individuals who are proponents of that try to look at the folklore, they tend to just focus on Native American folklore. And it's problematic for a number of reasons. Number one, they're just looking at North America. And number two, they tend to treat Native Americans as like some sort of monolithic giant culture. And that's just absolutely not the case. So what Tim and I, I think we really try to do is not only give each tribe's lore its own voice, but also look at it through the Western European Wildman tradition,

which I don't think anybody had really put their effort into. And looking at that tradition through almost like a Jungian lens of like a collective unconsciousness archetype. Like as a human being born on planet Earth, you have certain archetypes that are embedded in your psyche. And one of those is the wild man. And the number of congruencies that you'll find between the outliers, the odd things in Bigfoot sightings, and that Wildman archetype are really astounding. So in this book, which is just mostly focused on that folkloric aspect, we look at sort of window areas. We look at looking at Bigfoot through more of a poltergeist lens, looking at Bigfoot through a fairy folklore lens or like, you know, the little people lens, which is one of my specialities. looking at Bigfoot through the alien contact experience,

looking at it through a ritual magic experience, looking at it through this witch archetype of Western Europe, looking at it through basically the ghost archetype. I mean, there's an entire tradition of hairy ghosts, and then again, something that I never would have put together, this idea of this connection of women and white, the archetypal women in white, and the Bigfoot experience. So Volume 1's about folklore, Volume 2 will come out later this year, hopefully,

and that's more focused on actual evidence. is just saying, look at all these different other traditions that are describing similar things to Bigfoot, these creatures that jump on houses and slap the sides of the walls, and they make knocks in the forest, and they're hairy and they have glowing eyes, and they do all these things that Bigfoot do, but they're not Bigfoot. So it really became apparent after working through this that, for me at least, that Bigfoot is yet another sort of cultural lens through which we try to describe a lot of these paranormal phenomena, at least for me. I know there can be plenty of people who disagree, but some of these. similarities are really strong and they're they're difficult to to ignore i think yeah and in like i was tony guys before we came on air uh you know i think that saskatch is very physical i think that you know it obviously leaves tracks it craps it um you know you can see trace evidence of where it's been but that doesn't mean that there isn't odd things that go on you know i haven't gotten to the

section you had a woman in white and I wanted to ask you about that Tim because I know you wrote that section and I saw ape canyon and you know when people first come into the uh start investigating kind of researching looking things up regarding Sasquatch they'll come across to ape canyon and if you read Fred Beck's account I mean to this day I could I could be at an ape canyon in about an hour and a half two hours I could be in the middle of ape canon and it's called ape canyon. But the part of the story that most people don't pay attention to was what Fred wrote when he was recounting that story. And he talks a lot about a lot of weird things that went on more than it just being an ape. But no one ever addresses that. But if you read the rest of

what he wrote, he talks a lot about a lot of weird things that went on up there. Absolutely. Tell me about that section. The woman in white and the ape canon, And you can address the ape canyon section if you want. Well, the ape canyon thing falls under the women and white section because it has a women and white connection, at least by name. And Fred Beck, he was one of the miners that was there. And everyone who's into Sasquatch has heard of Abe Canyon, I think. A lot of people have read about it. If you buy a book that's a general survey of Bigfoot, it will usually have some mention.

of the 8 Kenyan story in him. And every Bigfoot book I've ever read makes it sound like a guy shot at a big foot, and then a bunch of Bigfoot came back later that night and attacked the cabin, and that was pretty much it. But Fred Beck was one of the miners who was there. And he has a far stranger story to tell. And I have a quote from him in the book, which I absolutely love. And he says, first of all, I'll say that they are not entirely of this world.

By they, he meant the Bigfoot. I know the reaction we experienced as these beings attacked our cabin impressed many with the concept of great ape-like men dwelling in the mountains. And I can say that we genuinely fought and were quite fearful and we were glad to get out of the mountains. But I was, for one, always conscious that we were dealing with supernatural beings. And I know the other members of the party felt the same. So there's a lot of what Josh and I have begun to call weirdwashing in the Bigfoot community where they take these stories and they cherry pick the parts that make them seem. most like natural animals, like apes in the woods, and they throw out all the weirdness. So with respect to ape canyon, it started when these guys saw a giant, what they called it, a giant Indian spirit.

A Native American spirit, which told them to follow a white arrow through the wilderness. They follow this white arrow. Along the way, they meet another spirit, a woman who they called Vanderwhite. They don't describe her, but they said she was, you know, they named her Vanderwhite. and then they follow this arrow onto the mine which they named the Vanderwhite mine they named it after this female spirit they met while they're there before any of the stuff that everybody knows about with the shooting

the big foot and the attack later on they experience a number of weird things including strange sounds coming from the ground like a rhythmic kind of drumming they find two footprints in the middle of the sandbar they said just an acre wide sandbar there's just two footprints down the middle they could not figure out how the footprints got there.

One of the other miners, not Fred Beck, but one of the ones that was with him said it looked like they picked something up and dropped it down and picked it up again. There was an apport, so these happen in poltergeist experiences. Things just appear or disappear. But he had a pencil appear in his hand. He said he knew it was at his house. He needed a pencil, and a pencil appeared in his hand out of nowhere. So there's all this strangeness that goes along with.

with this case that's just been washed away and you never hear about it. I know when we were talking before, Wes, you said, you know, that's one of the first things you brought up when I was talking me about this book. You're like, have you read Fred Beck's ape Canyon account? I was like, yes, I have. Absolutely. It's amazing. But this woman in white chapter, you know, I'm going to blame Sasquatch Chronicles for this, Wes. This started with, it's the we need help episode that I think myself and the fans usually just call the two brothers episode and you know they were seeing a number of of bigfoot creatures and having the

very typical stuff with you know bigfoot slap in the house and climbing on the roof and doing all that but then you gave an update on a later episode and you see you know they're seen this really weird woman this like hag like woman who's walking around the neighborhood she's tall and she's wearing white and she's wearing shoes that are too big look like they're too big for her feet which is a very important detail, by the way. We'll get into that.

And some people in the Sasquatch Chronicles, the forum, started saying, you know what, I've seen a weird woman in white, and I drove down the road, and I saw a bigfoot then. And I thought, well, okay, that's weird. Now that more than one person is reporting this. So I started just on my own kind of keeping track, and I met with a witness. I think I mentioned it on Strange Familiar once that I was kind of. of interested in this idea.

And a bigfoot witness said, hey, I'd like to meet you at Michaud Forest where I had, you know, a couple encounters. And I want to show you something there. I said, absolutely. So we met there as a forest here in Pennsylvania. And he takes me to a place called Pondbank. And he says, the reason I'm taking this, he said, we're less than a mile away from, he had two sightings.

One he got roared at. And another, he saw a black, Bigfoot one of the blacker than black accounts. He said it's the, you know, I'm sure you've taken reports to them less where people just say they look blacker than black, blacker than the night around them. Yeah. Yeah, like the, almost like they suck up the light. Yeah. Yeah.

Yep. So it was one of those. And they were both less than a mile away from this area in Pondack. He said, now this area is famous for, there's a woman in white spirit here. They call her the white lady of Pondbank. So then I said, okay, now this is very interesting. I'm getting several cases now. But I started going back in folklore then, and I'll just take a moment to say, I say this in most every interview. I think it's important. I've heard a lot of the cryptozoologists, the self-enointed cryptozoologists use the term folklore in a very dismissive way. They'll say, like, oh, that's just folklore. Like, it leaves a bad taste in their mouth. And I think that's a mistake. I think there's a lot of truth that's passed down through the folk process.

For instance, you know, the easiest example is like, this plant will heal you and this plant will kill you. You know, these are things that have been passed down in folk tales and folk stories over the years. And I think these folk stories, they get exaggerated, they get changed a little bit. But the essential truth is still there. And what it is, it's our relatives, our, you know, from the past, our ancestors, telling us how they dealt with these weird things a lot of the times. And a lot of these things are very important because you can learn a lot of lessons from, from the way our relatives dealt with with the things that were like Bigfoot, which they wouldn't have called Bigfoot.

They would have called them Wild Man or before that. They would have called them Wadwows or something else. So I started to look in the folklore for these women in white. And going back in time, I found this woman from Germany. They said she was the Teutonic Moon goddess. But she's really a lot more like Baba Yaga, the witch from Russian folklore. And her name is Perkta. And the interesting thing about Perkta is she would call children from the wilderness.

She says she was very interested in children, just like Bigfoot reports. If they followed her, they'd never come back. You know, so she'd lead them into the woods. They'd never come back. She was said to be an old hag woman who either wore white or she could appear also as a young woman in white. They said Perkta had either one or two feet that were too big for her body. Now, if you remember the woman from the two brothers episode, they said she was wearing shoes that looked like clown shoes, like too big for her. And the reason this perk to wore that, or had the big feet,

they said is because she had bird feet. Now, this is very, and this is something that Josh pointed out to me, if there's a problem in the bigfoot community with three-toed tracks. And a lot of people say, well, it doesn't make sense. A primate shouldn't have three-toed tracks, et cetera. But if you think of a bird foot, what it would look like, now they actually have four toes, but the fourth toe is facing backwards. The appearance of a bird's track is as three toes. But in any case, this perkeda had this retinue. She had these two groups that followed her around. And one is called the hymchin. And the hymchin were the souls of dead children, but they took the form of Will of the Whistphlights. So orbs in the woods. And the other group that followed her around were called the Perkton. And they were a group of

hairy wild men that would run into, you know, would scare people in the towns and throw rocks and climb on their roofs and do all the things that Bigfoot does. So here we have back in German folklore, you know, pre-medieval times, we have this association with this Perkta and strange lights in the forest and Harry Wildmen. And I went from there and I started looking at folklore all over the world. and in North Africa, all throughout Europe, in Russia, I haven't found any explicitly in the Far East yet, but I think it's just a matter of time. But time after time after time, there's notes of these wild men, these big hairy creatures, and they say they're either they'll call them their wife or their significant other will be a woman in white, either a woman in white or a white creature similar to them. But again and again, you have this idea of the wild man, and next to him is a woman in white. There's a couple examples.

The apple tree man in England, they said he was a wild man that guarded the orchard. And he has helped in this by, they said, the ghost of a haggie woman who wears white, an old woman who wears white. There are the Sansa Bonsum, I think is in Apollonia, was known as the Friend of Witches. and his counterpart was this woman in white, this very tall woman in white. So it appears in folklore all over the world that the wild men are associated with these women in white. And it's, I don't know why, I can't tell you why, but I can tell you the connections are there, absolutely. Yeah, it's an interesting point you bring up to him. I kind of got chills as you were talking because, you know, the two brothers, they told me that woman in white was pretty tall.

I mean, it wasn't like a, you know, a short woman running around. It was a pretty big woman running around. And I always wondered why, I mean, they brought up that detail of like clown shoes. She was wearing, and they didn't hit them until later, that she never got dirty. You know, they're wearing snake boots, and they have mud up to their shins walking around on that property. And she was never dirty. But she appeared to be very physical. And I always wondered why, you know, because later in the stories, you guys know, it really wasn't a human woman out running around.

It was some sort of an entity. But I always thought that was a weird detail they left me that she looked like she wore clown shoes. Her shoes were too big. And I could never pinpoint why would, if you're going to be a spirit, why not have, you know, want to have decent pair. You know, you're going to have shoes, at least have them fit. But they said they were like clown shoes out running around. So if I could interject two axes that I have to grind personally, it's the idea that, like, Obviously, as Tim is outlined here, the ape king of incident has a lot of factors that aren't always presented.

I personally find it, as someone is interested in a lot of these subjects, I personally find it intellectually dishonest to cherry pick the aspects of someone's encounters to fit your, you know, large hairy hominid, undiscovered monkey in the woods hypothesis. Like if you believe that Fred Beck was there and he was encountering these, something was assailing the cabin with him and his folks, then you've got to take that incredible encounter alongside other incredible claims that he makes as well. I mean, we all live in glass houses. It's so ironic to me that, you know, the UFO people think that the Bigfoot people are crazy and the Bigfoot people think that the UFO people are crazy and the ghost people think that they're both crazy. It's just, it's so silly. But something else, something that you spoke to a little bit earlier, West, was, um, the idea that like, I really wish, if people can leave this particular interview with anything in their minds, please decouple the idea that things have to be physical or non-physical. If you look at the people who believe in ghosts, I think we would all agree that ghosts are non-physical in some sense.

They're probably spirits of the dead, although there's, you know, a lot of people who would argue otherwise. but they're probably the spirits of the dead, and they can pass through walls and do all these things, but they still interact with our physical world. The non-physical interacts with our physical world. They can leave footprints. They can leave handprints. They can shut doors.

They can move objects, etc. And this is something that's borne out over the past, I would say, 20, 25 years in terms of sci phenomena, where people are actually able, in the laboratory settings, to influence the physical world with their minds. So even though something may have physical imprints or physical, you know, leave physical evidence in our world, it doesn't mean that it's not necessarily, it has to be one thing or the other. You know, I would almost compare things like Bigfoot Hair and Bigfoot Scat to something like ectoplasm,

which is, you know, something that was commonly manifested in seances where people were trying to contact, you know, the spirits of the departed. This ephemeral sort of goop that would just sort of materialize out of nowhere. Or if you look at the UFO phenomena, which I personally contend is less physical than most people think. There's a whole phenomenon of this sort of angel hair that's left behind, this sort of film, this sort of almost like steel wool that people can gather at the sites. But even when they put them in jars, they tend to evaporate and dissipate. And of course, you know, UFOs leave burn marks and radiation and effects on witnesses as well. So I would really like for people to stop thinking in this sort of dualistic physical versus non-physical way and just be like there's something that can perhaps pass through those different boundaries. And it just is.

You know, let's stop trying to place these physical, non-physical, dimensional, whatever labels on it and just say it is. But it traffics in different ways than, you know, Wes or Tim or Jocke. does. Yeah, I think, I mean, to simplify what Josh said, and if, you know, I'm out of line here, Josh, just correct me, we believe, like, these are real things. And they are leaving real footprints, and they're leaving real hair behind. But there's something very, very strange about them. And that's, you know, that's the most simplified version I can give of what Josh just said. Well, and, you know, going back to, you know, Christians, for example, the spiritual, you know, as a Western culture, because I struggled with that for the longest time, like Dogman. I cannot

wrap my head around Dogman. It seems to be bulletproof. It seems to show up. It seems to go after people the same way, almost like a demon would. You know, when a demon generally, and Josh, you'll correct me if I'm wrong, but generally a demon will focus in on one person. They'll kind of attach themselves to one person. But going back to the spiritual side of it, you know, in the Bible, for example. Most Christians believe the Bible. And I think as a Western culture, we've taken this as something spiritual can't be physical, but that's not really true. I mean, even in the Bible, who did Abraham sit down and eat with, you know, these three angels? That's if you believe the Bible. And then two of them showed up in Sodom and Gomorrah and grabbed Lot and his wife by the arm and dragged him out of there.

Now, they weren't humans, they weren't something physical, but they were. Even though they were spiritual, they were physical. Great example. Yeah. To flip this on its head, like, you know, for those of you who are believers, because I'm a Christian myself, if you believe that your actions in this reality have repercussions in the afterlife, repercussions with you and your God, then why would not the actions of another reality have repercussions in our reality as well?

It's sort of a Like I said It's like an extra grind with me Where I think that like We tend to try to separate these things a lot more than I think they really are separated If you know there is an objective reality to To things like Bigfoot which I tend to believe there are Do you guys address the smell in a lot of encounters

How there's that weird smell that wouldn't So So I mentioned it briefly There are a lot of strong correlations between the smells of like ghosts and the little people and demons and the smells that people report in Sasquatch encounters. We don't necessarily address that at length in this volume because I wrote a book in 2016 called The Brimstone Deceit where a full like third of that book is dedicated to like just

looking at Bigfoot smells and cataloging the types of smells that are noticed and what they can mean, how they could be produced. You know, so, so because I did that, I didn't want to. like copy and paste into this new book. As far as I'm aware, I think that what I wrote in the brimstone to see is probably the most that someone's ever written

about like Bigfoot smells, but it's not necessarily part of this volume, but there are definitely similarities. I mean... Well, the smells are addressed in the Wildness Guys chapter. Yeah. I mean, they're addressed a few places throughout, but there's not a dedicated chapter or

spot for it, at least in volume one. So I say they're not addressed because I wrote an entire book, like, obsessing over this, right? So I could have said a lot more. I could, well, it smells are sort of my thing. So I could have said a lot more, but most of that's in my 2016 book, The Burnstone Deceed. But, yeah, there is this, this, this, this,

I wouldn't even say that it occurs in every case, but this, the rotten egg, sewage, hydrogen sulfide, that sort of like, you know, funky fart smell, for lack of a better term, that occurs in a lot of these cases, is something that you find across all sorts of paranormal phenomena. You'll find it in demon accounts. We'll find it in ghost accounts. We'll find it in, you know, the UFO literature as well.

It's, I would argue that it is by far the most prevalent odor that you find in accounts with the paranormal in general. And hydrogen sulfide has some specific and very peculiar aspects to it that make it, possibly a vector for inducing hypnosis or inducing an altered state, which is something I go into in the brimstone deceit. But it's definitely one of those commonalities that I think is really

underreported. For me, I know that Tim's... So part of the reason that this book works so well, I think, is because Tim's are really a field researcher and I'm more of a stay-at-home shut-in academic. for lack of a better term. But for me, the things that I always really find interesting are the ways that people from

very different cultures across completely different time spans, you know, somebody from today versus, you know, somebody in Thailand in, you know, 1750 or whatever, they'll describe certain things that sound almost identical. And it's the consistency between these accounts that I think really strengthens the case that we're dealing with something objectively real versus the, you know, veracity of any individual account on its own, on its own footing. Yeah, I know in the Bigfoot world, when they talk about smells, they'll say it's an ape, and it's because of this gland underneath their armpit, and so that's why he's,

and I just have a hard time buying into that. And the reason why I have a hard time buying into that is because of how it's reported. It's not reported like, oh, I started smelling something weird, and then as I got closer, it got stronger. That's not how the smell's reported. It's like, bam, you walk into a wall of it. It's like flipping a switch, right? Yeah, exactly.

I've experienced that. Like, where you could walk through it, turn around, and walk back through it. Very, very bizarre. Yeah, there was a thing I was going to send both of you guys. You guys would be fascinated by it. I don't know that anyone else would care. But it was a scientist, and he was talking about how all these different dimensions. And it's actually proven through science that there is more than one dimension.

I can't remember how many there are. But he's way smarter than I am. He goes through and explains it. And he was talking about aliens and he was talking about demons. He never got into Bigfoot, but he was talking about those two specific topics. And the reason why you smell that weird smell is as they're coming into our reality, there is an after effect. There is a, what's a word he used?

almost like a I knew I should have opened my mouth about this but well no but speaking specifically to what you're speaking about you know the introduction of light or energy into a certain environment with the chemicals can cause

a photochemical reaction of all sorts of different varieties so yeah it's almost like as a byproduct of the transition there are sort of these side effects that manifest it smells Yeah, and that's kind of what he was going into, how it was a byproduct from entering into our reality.

And, you know, it's not just crazy talk. I mean, science has proved there's several different dimensions that we live in a certain dimension. And, you know, there's, but it was fascinating to listen to him talk about this smell and how it's a byproduct from them coming into our reality. And again, he's smarter, way smarter. It's above my pay grade talking about it. but it caught my ear when he was saying that. Yeah, I mean, I'm not familiar with that exact report, but that's one of the theories, I think, you know,

that the smell is produced somehow. And again, you know, you want to go back to biblical accounts. You know, they would talk about the smell of brimstone, you know, associated with usually demonic entities. Again, this is where Josh lives. You know, he's literally written a book on it. But it's there. I mean that, you know, again, what exactly it means, you know, it's very frustrating to write all this and to not have answers for people in a way for me to, like, I'm not going to tell you it's an interdimensional creature because I don't know. I'm not going to tell you it's a demon. I don't know. The only thing I could tell you is it's much weirder, in my opinion, much, much weirder than an undiscovered ape. That's all. Yeah, let me ask you, Josh, as you look across these different genres, what are the most common things

that you see correlations between, let's say, Sasquatch, aliens, and demons. Is there any aha moments where you're like, that's strange? I find that here, here, and here. Well, for anybody who sort of follows my work, I have a very difficult time after looking to this of separating out the extraterrestrial contact experience and the little folk, the fairy folk,

experience that sort of I'm coming out of a tradition that was sort of established by Jacques-fil-A drawing those parallels but the deeper I go into it the more I see that not that fairies are aliens or aliens or aliens or fairies but these are two sort of masks to describe these phenomena specifically the way that those sort of interface with

Bigfoot one of the biggest things is is the idea of the braiding of horse maims I mean, you know, this was a phenomena that was very commonly recorded in Western Europe, and it was often attributed to fairies or witches, especially in the case of fairies, the idea they would sort of like fashionally tiny little bridles for them to just ride on the horses' necks. You know, the skeptic in me says that this is just people who aren't, you know,

brushing their horses' mains every night. But that's an anomaly that's been taken up in a big way by the Bigfoot community. People talk about Bigfoot braiding horses' mains. And to be fair, there are accounts of people who have seen large hairy hominids actually, like, interacting with horses and braiding their mains. The other thing that I find really interesting, I'm going to put you on the spot here a little bit, Wes, is the time dilation, the missing time thing. So if anybody doesn't know what missing time is, missing time is the idea that if you are taking to Fairyland, you feel like you spent four hours there, but you've really spent four years there. And this manifests itself in parallel with the alien abduction experience of people who feel like they should have taken, you know, 30 minutes to get home, and four hours later, they're finally home. And then they have a hypnotic regression or they have memories, and they realize that perhaps their journey was interrupted in some sense.

I remember with you and your brother, there was an incident where your, your, your, your big sort of, you know, siding. The amount of time that you estimated during which it happened was a lot shorter than the actual amount of time that elapsed, if I recall correctly from one of your early interviews. Yeah. And that sort of, that sort of smacks of that missing time thing. Like, I think you felt like it should have taken 40 minutes and it was actually four hours. That's kind of strange. And there was someone on your podcast who said that, oh, well, when you're over here in a stressful situation, you think that time passes slower. But that's not the case as backed up by reams of scientific studies.

When over you're in a stressful situation, time feels like it's passing faster. So you should have felt every moment of that, but you came home feeling like you spent less time than you actually did. So, you know, not to put you on the spot, but that's one of those things, missing time thing. And there's plenty of missing time accounts in Bigfoot accounts. It's one of those underreported things where people feel like, you know, I saw a Bigfoot and it took me three and a half hours to walk the half mile back to my truck. I don't know why it did, but it did. So that time dilation thing is something that I think is vastly underreported, but it's still there if you look at these accounts. Yeah, it's strange. I have no explanation for it. It still bothers me to the stay. I mean, there wasn't, I don't remember any aliens coming down or, I mean, there was no reason for us to, you know, fill that way. But it is strange. I've talked to a few people that have experienced that. And I don't have a great explanation for the time. And I know Woody and I got goofed on a lot for that whole.

thing, but I mean, it's what happened. I can't tell you regarding the time. It's so weird, man. It's so weird. Even today, if you ask Woody Hill, he almost doesn't want to quite talk about that. But what I'm saying is that it's, whereas other people would see that as a hole in your story, there are people who look at this holistically throughout all sorts of, you know, fairy folklore, alien abduction folklore, would say, no, this is entirely consistent with an encounter with something that is. from the other realm, right, Tim? Yeah, oh, absolutely. It's just one of those boxes to check.

And to me, it, you know, makes me both like and believe West's account that much more. Because it's this bizarre detail that, you know, you could have left it out. You could have not told that detail, you know, but you include it. Like you said, that's what happened. And it just makes me believe it all the more. Yeah, it's bizarre. You know, when I had Gary Wayne on, I don't know if, I think you know about Gary Wayne, don't you, Tim? I think so, yeah.

Yeah, if you ever get a chance, Josh, I don't know if you've ever heard of him. Gary Wayne, he wrote this book called Genesis 6, and he has a whole section on fairies. And what's fascinating in fairy folklore is they fly around in flying machines, they kidnap people, and then they drop them off. You know, they, the whole fairy concept, I mean, it sounds like they're talking about aliens is what they're talking about. but they're calling them fairies in his book. Is that kind of what you're addressing them as, Josh, when you talk about fairies? I mean, so for me, the three main characteristics that you've got to sort of look at when you're categorizing something as fairy is generally speaking,

because this is not entirely consistent across cultures, but short stature, living underground, likes to abduct children, you know. That's the thing. a lot of my influence in terms of my own research and especially I think an influence for this book as well came out of sort of the Jacques Valet tradition of the 60s where he started looking at the UFO phenomena versus the fairy phenomena and saying hey look these things have a lot of similarities but the fairy the fairy umbrella is so broad often compared to like sort of like Pokemon because it's not just like people say fairies and are like oh it's like tinkerbell with wings well let's set aside the fact that you know, fairies with wings are sort of perhaps a Shakespearean play invention. Like, fairies could fly, fairies could levitate, fairies could levitate other people, but

they weren't really shown with wings. Fairies were elves, they were mermaids, they were ogres, they were trolls, there were all these things. And you know, on the one hand, that was a way that people of that time would describe the supernatural. They'd say, oh, that's

fairy. But on the other hand, it's such a strong framework through which you can view a lot of this activity. I stand adamantly beside the fact that anything involved in, like, you know, the UFO contact experience, the alien contact experience, you can find a parallel between that and fairy folklore, and vice versa in a lot of ways. The thing that frustrates a lot of people that I talk to is, like, so are aliens fairies or fairies aliens?

and I'm like, I'm not saying either. I'm saying that depending on your culture, you're grafting this sort of amalgamation of cultural beliefs upon whatever this other thing is, because it's something beyond our even comprehension in a lot of ways. I would argue. But yeah, I mean, like, it's, it's, the whole fairy folklore thing, the whole fairy schick, for lack of a better term, is still what to this day in ways that we don't even realize. I mean, like, you know, if someone has a stroke, the etymology, the sort of word origin for that term is because when people would have a stroke in, you know, the 1800s, they would have been, they would have suffered from the fairy stroke.

Like, the fairies had touched them, and that's why they had a stroke. you know the color cobalt is a derivative of the idea that there were ferries in the mines in cornwall that were called cobalds or actually Germany sorry Germanic mine fairies that were blue and would like sort of like float around the mines that were they were colored this bright blue and that's what that's literally where you get the term cobalt not only for the mineral but also for the color um you know and also you know don't bogart that joint or Bogart comes from Bogart, which is something that would steal. It was a fairy that would steal stuff, you know? And it's also where boogeyman comes from. And it's also where Booger comes from.

The Bigfoot Booker is a direct, is a direct derivative of the boogeyman, which is a direct derivative of the Boggart, the little, you know, fairy that would come and snatch people in the middle of the night. So, fairy lore is absolutely, as a

vibrant as it ever was, it's just not as much on the surface. It's kind of more of a generic term that they would use, it sounds like, as opposed to fairy means alien is what you're saying. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's fairy was like, to say something was fairy or it was a fairy is the equivalent of saying it's supernatural, it's paranormal, it's, it's this or that or the other, yeah, 100% yeah. I got you. And I know there's a section, I think it's cool that you guys wrote different sections,

you know, each one of you kind of have your, own expertise in different areas. And it's cool that you guys wrote different sections of the book. Tim, you wrote a section on gifting. When the reader reads that section, what will they walk away from reading the section on gifting? The gifting thing, you know, I think a lot of the flesh and blood folks have this idea that when you're gifting, you'll hear a lot of people say, you know, don't give Bigfoot food because they will become reliant on your food and then they will get mad if you stop giving them food. Maybe. But if you go back in time and you look at spirit gifting, which is something that people did, you know, as far back as we have records, this is consistent with that where people would give offerings to the fairies to various spirits all over the world.

The most simple one to point out is Santa Claus. We leave Santa Claus a milking cookies. That's our spirit offering to Santa Claus, and he brings his presence, right? That's a longstanding tradition of spirit offering. Santa Claus is, by the way, in the wild man tradition, but that's another story, although I do know it. But the idea that the Bigfoot would grow dependent upon a couple candy bars left on a stump is very ludicrous to me, because if these are natural creatures, you know, eight foot tall, maybe a thousand pounds, you're not making a dent in the caloric needs of that with a candy bar on a stump. Something that big has to eat constantly. Gorillas have to eat

constantly. They do not process their food. We do not have to eat constantly, big brain, primate, humans, because we process our food. We cook it. We get the most bang for our buck out of the calories by processing our food. Gorillas do not, and they have to eat all day long. And in fact, if they were as big, if they had a brain as big as ours, they'd need another, I think, hour and a half of foraging per day just to get enough calories to live. So we were talking about something like Bigfoot, which is bigger than a human, bigger than a gorilla, it would need calories constantly.

And if it's not processed food, if it's not cooking its food, and we can assume it's not because the forests aren't, you know, all aglow with Bigfoot campfires. and then it would just need to eat constantly, and it would need to eat in quantities far greater than a couple candy bars left on a stump. So when people say, oh, I left candy bars and I stopped leaving candy bars and Bigfoot got mad and he pounded on my house and climbed on my roof

and screamed at me and everything else that goes along with these stories, again, maybe. But if you go back and look at spirit gifting throughout time, this is consistent. when you start giving spirits, food, other gifts, and you stop, bad things happen. We have stories in the book of, I think it was a brownie. Josh, you correct me if I'm wrong, who the farmer stopped giving food to and it killed his cows. Is that, is that?

Don't give the mouse of cookie, basically. Yeah. On the Isle of Inch, yeah. Yeah. And there's other stories of, you know, if you're kind and you keep feeding the fairies beer, they will keep your house nice. if you stop, they will destroy your house. You know, these stories go on and on and on.

And the idea is intention. So I've heard other people say, plan a bigfoot garden. This is one of my favorite examples. If you have a garden and you want Bigfoot to stay out of your garden, you plant a Bigfoot garden closer to the woods, and the Bigfoot will know that this garden is for them, and they will only eat out of the Bigfoot garden. That is not the way nature works.

Animals are caloric opportunists. Any other animal would now say, okay now I've got two places to get food from great all the more for me but somehow Bigfoot knows this is a Bigfoot garden when that's intention and now you've set up a specific space for Bigfoot and you're giving Bigfoot you know this intentional offering of this Bigfoot garden so there's a lot of intention involved in gifting and when things go wrong it's because there are these rules that folklore establishes and they've established them a long time ago and it pretty much checks these same boxes again, where, you know, people in these old folk stories, they would stop giving gifts for whatever reason, and these supernatural creatures of various sorts would then harass them or hurt them or hurt their livestock, et cetera, et cetera. Same tale told about Bigfoot today. So I think the takeaway from that chapter is intention.

You know, it involves what, that people are leaving things out with intention. I give example of some of the flesh and blood folks say that it doesn't matter if Bigfoot's eaten from your trash can because that's your trash can and he's eaten from everybody's trash can. But if you leave them food out on a stump, that is bad news because then you're leaving out. Well, that's intention. You've shown intention that. Again, if this is just a wild creature, how does it know the difference that a trash can isn't a spiritual place where you're leaving spiritual offerings of food for it? and the stump isn't the place where you discard your trash. It wouldn't know.

Logically, it wouldn't know. So it's this idea of intention, even the flesh and blood folks, assign to gifting. So I would say, A, take away intention and also the idea that spirit offering is something that people have done for a long time. And I think that's probably what's going on with that tradition where people are doing that. I think it's very much a spirit offering. To further emphasize that, I mean, if you look at sort of the way that, magical practitioners interface with spirits, you know, casting aside the sort of judgment of whether or not that should be something they should do, whatever.

But the people that I've talked to who claim to have had interactions with spirits who are magically operant describe things that are striking like Bigfoot interactions. They, they, the spirits respond to invocations, you know, vocalizations or not. in the woods. They're more likely to manifest in areas of remote human activity. They show their presence through environmental effects. So, like, you're not going to actually see a spirit when you call the spirit by name. You're going to have, like, knocks and things being thrown at you and just, you know, sort of an interface with the environment.

And they're often felt more than they're seeing, which is something that, you know, I've heard you talk about, Wes, is the idea that, like, when they're around, you feel it. Like, you feel it more than you actually see it sometimes. Yeah, you're right. What you're saying, Josh, I mean, even talking about like Ouija boards, what do people always say, like, knock on the table if you're here, or you hear ghost hunters do that, where they're like, if you hear, you know, tap twice on the wall or whatever. And what you were saying, Tim, with regard to gifting, I mean, look at Halloween and trick or treat. If you ever get a chance to look that up, I mean, that is a creepy ritual. I hate to ruin Halloween. but it's a creepy ritual that we do.

You know, there's a reason why you knock on someone's door and they give you candy and why you say trick or treat. You know, it's fascinating with the two brothers, and when they had that spirit medium lady come out to get rid of the Sasquatch, she was saying, don't give them anything and don't take anything from them. You're not feeding a wild animal. They see it as a tribute.

And that always stuck with me when she said that. It always kind of unnerved me when she said that. Yeah, I mean, I've, so I was in a long-term sort of gifting situation with something in the woods. I don't know what it was, right? And I emptied up. Chess board. I emptied up and I started, you know, leaving food and I started leaving then alcohol. And I asked for something.

I asked for a skull, right? because I've collected since I was a kid, and I thought, wouldn't that be neat? And I'd read a story about someone doing that. And I got it. I walked like 200 yards from the place where I asked for it, and I walked into this copse of trees, and there was a groundhog head.

There was a freshly killed groundhog. It had the jaw ripped off, and the head lay in there, and I got my skull. It was covered in gore, and I didn't take it. I backed out. I was very scared. It very much freaked me out. And then a bunch of bad stuff happened.

It's like too long to go in, but a bunch of bad stuff happened in the same area, ending with a rabid raccoon attack. But what did that copse of trees remind you of to? If it was in Ireland, it would have been called a fairy fort, Josh. 100%. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, it was a circle of trees with a big pile of stone in the middle of it. But in any case, yeah, this a bunch of bad stuff happened and it ended with this rabid raccoon attack.

And which, you know, maybe, maybe not. But according to folklore, and I'll never do this again, I'm going to go point this out. Like, this was on me. I made the mistake. But if you look at the folk court, it says, it says, A, don't ask for anything. But if you do ask for something and it's given to you, take it because they will get offended if you don't. Well, I didn't take it because I was grossed out. I didn't want like a gory, you know, freshly killed groundhog head.

I wanted a nice, clean, old skull that had been sun-pleached, but I didn't, you know, I didn't say that. And, you know, a bunch of bad stuff happens. Did it? Is this because, you know, is this spirit-gifting going wrong? I don't know, but I can only say, like, if I look at the rules of folklore, I broke the rules, and then a whole bunch of bad stuff happened. And I'll never do it again. You know what I mean? But the rules are explicit in folklore, and I broke them.

So, you know, there's something to all this stuff. I don't know, you know, it's very difficult to talk about. And this is something you've pointed out too, Wes, is that like the people who have like the hunter in the woods who sees Bigfoot walking across his prime deer path, those are of a different category than people who are dealing with this phenomenon on their property day after day after day. Yes. And that speaks to me as. something that might be sort of a window area, might be sort of something more akin to, like, a haunting. Not saying the Bigfoot is a ghost.

Tim and I are super agnostic about what Bigfoot is. Like, if, again, if you try to, like, sort of reach a conclusion at the end of this book, you're going to be, you know, S-O-L. But I think that there's something really interesting to be said about, like, the way that these, the amount of interactions that you have with this phenomena tend to color the way that the phenomena acts, if that makes any sense. Yeah, it is strange. I mean, and you're right, Josh.

I mean, your average, I would say your average person that runs into Sasquatch runs into an ape. They run into a very flesh and blood, giant, giant, something. But when you start getting on people's property, for whatever reason, and not even people who are interacting with Sasquatch, they just start to notice them on their property. they'll really start to describe odd things. Absolutely.

I think out of, gosh, I can't even tell you how many people, out of all the people have asked, for example, the lights, I think I've only had one guy tell me no, he hasn't seen the lights. And I'm sure it's just a matter of time. But everyone I talked to, when I first started asking people that, I just would ask him that out of the blue. I was just curious. And I was shocked how many people would pause on the phone

and go, yeah, how did you know? And it's like, I don't know, but so many people have told me that. And I don't know the correlation between the lights and Sasquatch. There is some weird, it's a very uncomfortable coincidence, the lights and Sasquatch. Yeah, I have, my lights chapter is in book two. We get into the, there's a little bit of everything in both books. So there's, you know, book one isn't exclusively folklore. there's a lot of evidence. There's a lot, a lot of examples of Bigfoot stories we go into.

So there's a lot of everything in both books, but there's a dedicated chapter to the lights in book two. And there's so much. There's just so much to choose from. Someone at some point could probably write a 10,000 or a 100,000 word book just on lights in Bigfoot. If I might be allowed to interject right quick. there is an 1880 book that has a quote that I'm very fond of quoting because it blows my mind every time I read it. Wirt Sykes, who is a Welshman who wrote a book that was about British goblins. So this is obviously couched with inferior lore. But he's talking about these sort of anomalous lights, not only in sort of Breton, which is sort of, you know, if you had to like anglicanize an aspect of France,

Brittany would be sort of like the most English part of France that you could. Yeah, it's Celtic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's in France, but it's Kelton. Yeah. But he collected this massive amount of folklore, and he has this quote that like sticks with me every time I look at it. I'm like, that's Bigfoot.

So I'm going to read that verbatim. So there's some language in here that some people might not be entirely comfortable with, but it's it's it's it's verbatim red the uh breton sand yan etead saint john and the father is a double ignis status fairy carrying at its finger ends five lights which spin around like a wheel so obviously this is describing you know ignis status fools fire uh the willel wisp sort of like these ghost lights right um he goes on to say the negroes of the southern seaboard states of america invest this goblin meaning a ghost light goblin with an exaggeration of the horrible peculiarly of their own.

They call it Jack Malanturn and describe it as a hideous creature five feet in height with goggle eyes and huge mouth, its body covered with long hair, and which goes leaping and bounding through the air like a gigantic grasshopper. This fright for apparition is stronger than any man and swifter than any horse and compels its victims to follow it into the swamp where it leaves them to die. That's Bigfoot. It's Bigfoot. It's Bigfoot. It's Bigfoot and anomalous lights, right? It's right there. 1880. Bigfoot and anomalous lights talking about African Americans seeing this in the Southern Seaboard states. And that's something that's nobody talked about it. Honestly, West, to be fair, and to not sort of suck up, I think that you were sort of instrumental in getting people to talk about the anomalous lights. but it's but it's it's it's right there in that older text yeah i appreciate you saying that josh i mean

a lot of people see the lights i think more people have seen the lights than they've seen saskwatch you know it's probably true yeah there's really no explanation for for the lights i mean i even recorded one if you guys want to send it to you um me and witty recorded on night vision It was this weird ball of light just sitting there. And I have no explanation for it, none, as far as. And I didn't want to get too close. It made me nervous. It wasn't like I was terrified of it.

It was actually kind of a pretty light, but it was bizarre just to be there in the middle of the forest. And it is fascinating. When you start going through history, I started looking about, and, you know, in World War II, they talked about food fighters. You know, everyone thinks it's a band, but food fighters, pilots talked about seeing them all the time. And they would screw with their instruments as they were flying around. So this is something that I think Tim sort of touched upon in the company they keep essay, is that like these things tend to conglomerate together. I mean, like, so you have places across the country, because I'm just sort of being, you know,

U.S. centric here, but places across the country where you have high incidence of Bigfoot encounters and anomalous lights. and you'll also find that those are the places where people find like these large anomalous black cats. Lauren Coleman said that it was very easy to find, you know, these large black cats in areas of high bigfoot sightings. And then you'll find, you know, you'll dig a little bit deeper and like, oh, this is where big, this is where UFOs are cited too. And it just, it speaks to me, if this is an actual animal, it doesn't seem to me. that it would necessarily congregate or, you know, sort of manifest in this area where all this other garbage happens, you know? Yeah, that's a good point, and you wouldn't think that they would.

You know, going back to a lot of questions that I have, you know, regarding why don't we find dead bodies? And I'm kind of, I have a hard time with the status quo argument that you get on that, even though I like Grover Krantz and, you know, he brings up a great. point. But at that time, when Grover was saying, well, you never find bear bodies, you never find, which is true, you know, unless someone... But people have, like, in the history of mankind, people have found bare bodies. Well, it's rare. It's rare. I'll give them credit on that. It's rare. But, you know, here in the Pacific Northwest, the forest will consume anything that's dead.

I mean, you kill something, and it's going to be gone within a week. My argument to that, Sasquatch is seen in Arizona. Sasquatch is seen in New Mexico. It's seen in, I had a Border Patrol agent on right there down. I've been down there where they saw it. And I can tell you right now, there's no forest down there. And so why aren't we finding dead bodies down there? And going back to the subject, you know, and a lot of these self-proclaimed researchers, you know,

they'll give you the status quo answer. As long as you don't ask any follow-up questions, you're okay. They're okay with, you know, the minute you start asking follow-up questions is where their argument falls apart. And, you know, Sasquatch is seen in Russia, it's seen in China, it's seen in Australia, all over the world. And everyone has a different name for it, but we're all kind of describing the same thing. Oh, yeah. And we haven't caught up with this thing? I mean, it's not a mouse we're trying to find.

This thing's enormous. It's the universality of this. that makes me think that it is internally generated. And that's probably a very controversial thing to say. But if you look at, again, sort of the union idea of archetypes being something that people are just born with like human being has to deal with, it makes sense that anywhere people are there that you will find this sort of wild man archetype. the correspondences between

Bigfoot and the Wildman archetype of Western Europe are just a sounding. And that's the thing that I think Tim really brought to this. Tim's like, let's look at this through the Wildman archetype. And it never really occurred to me, but like the wild

man archetype, and by archetype, I mean like things like, you know, the trickster, the mother, the goddess, the, you know, the father, the warrior, those sort of archetypes, the sort of union things. Tim said, let's look at this through that archetype. And it's, it's, it never fails to sort of yield greater depth.

And I really thanked Tim for that, for pointing me in that direction because that was not something I was, I was thinking about it all. On, on the topic of bodies, Wes, the thing about, I talk about evidence. And again, this comes more in the second volume. But I talk about it in terms of primary relics and secondary relics. If you think about relics from the church, so a primary relic would be a piece of the saint's hair, the saint's fingernail, an actual part of the saint's body.

A secondary relic is something the saint touched. So it's the saint's Bible or the saints prayer cloth or the saints' garment, anything like that is a secondary relent. the best evidence we have for Bigfoot are secondary relics are the footprints and they're very very compelling the primary relics we have the hair the scat the blood it's very very controversial and no one can agree on it first of all it goes missing with an incredible frequency like this stuff disappears way more often than it should gets lost in the mail or otherwise disappears but no one can agree on the primary relics at all. In terms of a body, there's been a lot of hoax, as I know. A lot of people have claimed they had a body and, you know, it ended up being a hoax. But there's also been a lot of people who've claimed to shoot one that seem very credible. Or they claim, otherwise they have a body,

one way or another. And every one of these bodies is gone. One hundred percent of them. now they'll say either like a you know the government black van uh came up and and went away you know took the body and drove it away or the another bigfoot came out of the woods and grabbed the body and took it and buried it or does whatever bigfoot do with their bodies i say it doesn't matter it doesn't matter how or why those bodies disappeared the fact is they're gone we do not have access to them we cannot observe them we cannot do any experimentation on them we cannot see them They are gone. So it doesn't matter how they're gone.

They're gone. The evidence has disappeared. One way or another, it's gone. So, you know, if we're going to believe people see, you know, giant ape men in the woods, then I think we're going to believe at least some of them when they say they shot them and killed them and dropped them. And then the answer is, you know, rather the question remains, where is the body? And they're all gone. 100% of them.

Every single one throughout time that people have claimed to shoot is gone. Yeah, that's a good point. And it's like those two guys that always show up, you know, and I started really looking into that. And, you know, I would have eyewitnesses. It's usually when someone has real evidence, you know, something tangible or they've been hurt. And one thing I found where, you know, and I mentioned that one time to someone, they go, well, it sounds like the men in black. I go, well, yeah, kind of. They aren't, they aren't as sexy as a men in black. I mean, these two guys sound like one's an ogre and one's kind of a, you know, clean cut goofy guy. but you know and they show up even in Claire's encounter in the beginning of the show the English lady talking from Britain she's talking about how

if you listen to her encounter these two guys show up and what's weird is they show up throughout time I mean I can understand if you know some guy told me that and it happened in the 70s I'd be like it's probably some government worker what's weird is their description stays the same

and they show out throughout time which I find very, very strange. That's strikingly consistent with men and black reports because there's always this uncanny valley between, you know, what people perceive in the way they look. It's entirely consistent with that, too. I write about those guys again in volume two, and the actual section is called Plattis of the New Black

because one guy's always described as wearing a, you know, lumberjack shirt. Yeah, the big guy. Yeah. It's fascinating. So the takeaway from the book, and again, the book is called Where the Footprints Ends, High Strangeness, and the Bigfoot phenomenon. Definitely check it out on Amazon. Again, I love the cover. Whoever did the artwork, did an amazing job. That was me. Was it really? That was a Tim. It's very, very cool. And as I start reading it, you know, it's typical, I've never read anything you've done, Josh.

but typical Tim book, you know, it's very well written, it's very well put together, it isn't something slammed together and just thrown up on Amazon. I mean, just from the little I've read from it, I can tell a lot of time and effort. And you guys reference the hell out of everything in this book, which is cool, which is really cool. But the biggest takeaway is you guys kind of look across all genres, and you start to see common, very odd coincidences throughout all these different genres. Would you agree that that would be the biggest takeaway from this book? I think that, like, Tim and I would both agree that, like, we don't be, we're not beholden to any sort of interpretation of what this is.

It's just, we're just saying that, like, it's not, it's reductive to say that it's just a giant monkey. there's a lot of stuff and there's a lot of traditions that inform these encounters and these encounters sort of speak to a lot of these other traditions as well. So honestly, like, I don't think Tim and I would agree with what Bigfoot is and I don't think we even have an idea of what Bigfoot is. Like, we're just throwing up our hands, honestly. But there are things that are consistent with other traditions that compel us to question exactly what we think. Tim? Yeah. I mean, most simply, the one thing that this hopefully will accomplish two volumes, two very thick volumes, these are not thin volumes.

At the end of the day, the people that have knighted themselves cryptozoologists, can no longer say, well, the weird stuff with Bigfoot barely ever happens because we've filled two books with example after example after example. And when we're like, say when I'm talking about glowing eyes or when I'm

talking about gifting, I'm not using every example that was out there. I'm picking five or ten examples to illustrate my point and that's that. If we wanted to be exhaustive, these books would have been, you know, way, way thicker. Yep. each volume would have been war in peace plus so no longer can can things be said like oh weird weird stuff barely ever happens with bigfoot so you shouldn't talk about it no it happens all the time it happens with great frequency and uh it's it's just out there you know it's it's there so you know like i said hopefully this these two volumes accomplish that um things like you know i've heard

things like, oh, the three-toe tracks in, they rarely appear, you know, they're sometimes down in the south and in Pennsylvania in the 70s and that's that. No, no, no, no, no. They appeared all the way all across the United States, including the Pacific Northwest. It's a problem when you're talking about, you know,

thinking of it as a primate. So, you know, again, example after example, and I think yes, we're looking at folklore throughout the world and we're pointing out things like, one of my favorite things is the climbing on roofs. I had no idea how many things climbed on

roofs, these folkloric things from, you know, trolls to Norse Drauger, which are kind of the Norse undead Vikings, all these different big, hairy things climb on roofs. They're said to climb on roofs, including you know, Perkeda, that

witchy woman I mentioned before, and her retinue, the Perkedon and these various other wild men, all, they, for some reason, they all climb on roofs. It's a bizarre detail. Why do these folkloric things from all over the world climb on roofs? But they do, and so does Bigfoot. So, yeah, there's consistencies in the folklore throughout the world that make me think that people have been talking about, the wild men that people were talking about in medieval times and in the 1800s,

and today, in the form of Bigfoot, are probably the same thing, maybe expressed a little differently because it might be somewhat influenced by culture and it might change over time. I know that's a very complicated answer, but I hope that gets to where I'm trying to say here. Yeah, there's no agenda with it. I mean, you guys are just kind of laying out facts across the board and people can make up their own mind. It's kind of like what John Bitternoggle used to always tell me, you know, he used to give me, he used to give me such a hard time. He would always tell me, you cannot pick and choose.

choose the people to put on your show. You cannot, you have to tell the whole story. And he used to really, you know, beat me over the head with that. And he would say, you can't tell just part of the story. You got to tell the whole story. And if there's a weird part in someone's story, you've got to include it because it might mean something more down the road, even though you can't explain it now, like the Sasquatch Vanishing or the glowing red eyes. You know, how could something see with glowing red eyes. That makes me know, it must be eye shine. And most people you talk to, they're like, it wasn't eye shine. They were growing up light bulbs. And so, you know, he really pushed me to that. And I would hope that it would draw us closer to more answers, but it seems like it's more questions.

You know what I mean? Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's the problem. It's just going to be more questions. I don't think, I mean, I hope I'm wrong. I hope at some point we figure, it out, you know, but I don't think we're going to figure it out in my lifetime. That's the hope of every, like, anybody who's like interested in Bigfoot even nominally is like, we catch a Bigfoot. Like, you know, I'm sitting here, you know, on a book and a half of weird Bigfoot stories, but like, I would love for tomorrow, you know, Trump to be like, okay, coronavirus, but also we got Bigfoot, you know, that would be great.

That would be great. But, you know, you just got to sort of temper your expectations, I guess. It doesn't mean I'm not interested in it. It doesn't mean I don't think they're real. Again, I feel like I have to say it again and again. As I'm presenting all this stuff, I'm not saying I don't, I absolutely believe people. You know, I've talked to enough witnesses. I've had my own experiences where I believe there's something very, very real behind this, very, very physical. You know, it's just very, very, very strange. Yeah, it's like Dogman. Dogman, I think, is very real. I think people are running. running into it. I think it's an entity people are running into, but again, going back to what

Josh was saying in the beginning, just because something is spiritual doesn't mean it can't be physical. And with the dog man, it seems to dodge bullets. It seems to be bulletproof. But in the same breath, it has no trouble killing all your farm animals. It has no trouble banging on your house. It has no trouble following you around, you know. It's bizarre. There's so many weird things in this world. Let me ask you, Josh, what do you think Sasquatch is? What's your opinion? You always ask us. So my current line of thinking is kind of in line with the ideas of the late John Mack,

who was an in an abduction researcher before he got hit by a bus in England, which kind of sounds funny, but that's actually what happened. But he talked about, like, the alien abduction experience, the hybrid program being sort of a reified metaphor. The idea of, like, sort of a Jungian idea, like a cultural concept made real. And that's where I am right now, is that we're drawing upon, I think that the witness is as much an important part of the Bigfoot siding as whatever the Bigfoot siding is, you know. So I think that if you ask me in like six months, I hope that I have a different answer. But that's sort of where I'm right now is that we are definitely encountering something that is objectively in other intelligence, not human beings, not you projecting your psyche onto something. There's something objectively real at the end of this other experience.

but I'm not entirely sure that it interacts with our physical reality in the same way that, you know, me dropping a glass of water would interact with our reality. So that's sort of where I am is like the sort of like Union Wild Man archetype. And that's sort of airy-fairy. But anyway, Tim, yeah? Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm so agnostic on it. I, again, you know, I've said it several times. just think it's too weird to be an undiscovered gorilla. But looking at all this wild man stuff,

I mean, wherever we've lived throughout time, we've had a wild man, by we, I mean humans, whatever culture, there's a wild man that lives in the woods besides us. And that's just a, you know, different way of saying what you said before, West, Australia has them, you know, India has them, Europe has them, everybody has them. So it's something that's there that's always been there. You know, it's, it's, boy, I just have trouble saying it other than that, that it's very real, but very weird, you know, and, and that's as far as I feel like I can go with it. I think there's a lot of weight to the, the wild man archetype idea because UFOs have

changed culturally over time. If you look at the old, old pictures of the UFOs, you'll see them, they look at, you know, dirgeables, they look at balloons and so forth. And up to the 50s, they can. can I kind of took like an art nouveau kind of or art deco rather kind of look to them. Well, it's dragons and air balloons into, you know, sort of like steampunk airships into flying saucers, into black triangles into what we now have with the Navy sightings like these amorphous. Yeah, almost like plasma balls and stuff people are seeing now.

And it seems, I mean, it's weird to talk about, but it seems like the wild man changes too. and it's almost like the reverse of that. So it's like the UFOs have gotten more sci-fi and more technological over time. This wildman archetype starts in the medieval times. He's just this wild wizard. You know, he's hair covered, and he lives in the woods, but he's a wizard and he has knowledge and so forth. And up to the 1880s where, you know, there's a lot of reports of these guys wearing torn-up clothes. They're big hairy guys that aren't human.

They're wild men, but they're wearing like torn up clothes. clothes or they're carrying like an old rusty musket or something and to nowadays where you get this very very wild bigfoot and it's almost like it's kind of changing too like as we've gotten further away from nature our wild man has gotten wilder and I know that's a very very strange concept because it suggests in a way that these things aren't of themselves that they're not natural but you know like I said the UFOs change and it seems almost like the wild men have changed too. It's very, very strange. Yeah, that's an interesting take. I never thought about that before, Tim.

I hope everyone goes out and gets a book. Again, it's called Where the Footprints End, high strangeness and Bigfoot phenomena. I got myself a copy. I hope you guys go out and get yourself a copy on Amazon. I'll throw a link underneath and check out Tim's podcast. Strange Familiar I posted every week for people who hit my website. They know about Tim. if you're just hearing Tim for the first time. Definitely whatever podcast player you're listening to, go listen to Strange Familiers. I'm a huge fan of the show.

Tim, thanks so much for coming on, ma'am. Thanks for having me back, West. Always a pleasure to be on Susquech Chronicles. Pleasure was mine. And Josh, it was great meeting you, man. Thank you so much for coming on. I really do. I enjoy talking to you, ma'am.

Oh, yeah. It's a highlight for my ear. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Josh. Thanks again, guys. That's it for tonight, everyone. Remember, if you've had an encounter, shoot me an email. My email address is Wes at Sasquatchferonicles.com. Until next time, everyone.