Sasquatch Chronicles - SC EP:66 Giants in America

Episode Date: December 22, 2014

Brad Lockwood is an author of 9 books, including "On Giants: Mounds, Monsters, Myth Man -- Or, why we want to be small." Brad writes us "This is my lifelong study of early Native American mounds, who built them, and the supposed big bones unearthed. A bit of an expert on the subject, I do find intriguing similarities with your infamous beast" Tonight we will discuss burial mounds, giants and Sasquatch. Brad is going to share his personal encounter with us as well.

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extended shows, and much more. This week, as our Christmas gift to you, we'll be releasing the full show to everyone. And if you get a chance, please again, visit saskwarchronicles.com,

check out the website, see what we've done, and let us know what you think. Have a great holiday, everyone, and I hope you enjoy the show. 5.4.4.3.3.2.1. When I had come down this hill, I had seen this creature cross the road.

You would have ripped my locked door from my truck, extracted me from my vehicle, and no one of that damn thing I could have done about it. This thing I got to notice in its eyes. Its eyes was real, real evil, real sinister looking. The look it was given. What are you're putting? See you. Little bitch is about 60 foot nine.

I don't know. I guess I'm looking right at him. Come to Sasquatch Chronicles, a place where people share their encounters. Let's start the show. The website's up and running. If you go to Sasquatch Chronicles.com, you can get exclusive shows, the blogs. There's a lot of paid and free content up there. So I hope everyone, if you get a chance, go to Sasquatch Chronicles.com.

check out what we've done. I know if there's like a weird pink banner up at the top of the website. I don't know what that is. I'm trying to figure out where that came from. It's not really like an ad banner. It's just a weird banner that has, I don't know where it came from. I keep getting emails about it. And honestly, I just don't know where it came from.

I'm trying to make it go away. But it should be fixed by Monday. But if people go on there, they see it. We're working on taking that down. We're getting spanned. Yeah. Okay, I'm looking at it right now and it says this is a demo store for testing purposes. No order shall be fulfilled.

So I'm thinking there's some glitch in the website. Yeah, I'm not sure what it is. But we're working on getting it down. It's not affecting the side or anything. I'm thinking maybe just disregard it. It'll be gone by Monday. So I know I've been getting a lot of emails about it. I don't know what it is.

It's not affecting anything. It's just more of an annoyance and it is anything else. But I'm sure people don't want to hear us troubleshoot it here over the show. No, of course not. Tonight on the show we have Brad Lockwood. And Brad's an author of nine books. He's a researcher. He's looked into a lot of these giant skeletons and mounds, people finding giant bones.

So I thought we'd do a little twist tonight on the show, invite him on the show, and talk about some of his research into these giant skeletons. Brad's actually had a Sasquatch encounter to as well. But I thought maybe we could talk about that a little bit later in the show. And in the beginning, kind of focus on these giant skeletons and giant mounds that he's been researching into. So I wanted to welcome Brad to the show. Appreciate coming on the show. I wanted to ask you, I wanted to start out with how you got. involved into looking into these mounds and looking into these reported giants being

buried not only here in North America but I mean how did you actually get involved in this whole thing I grew up in Western New York and people don't really know what Western has New York State's pretty huge and I'm south of Buffalo on the Pennsylvania line almost just an hour from Ohio so my area is the old homelands of the Seneca and the Iroquois. So I grew up right next to the Seneca Reservation, and, to put it bluntly, my area is just known for giants. Our county museum has two giant Native Americans, which were wooden carvings.

The male is probably nine and a half feet tall. The female, just under eight feet tall. And I'm a bit of a history nerd, so every time I was down at the museum, I was staring at these giants. And the more you dig into it, our area was settled early 1800s and farmers ripping down the forest, basically my ancestors, my great-great-grandfather Job, was a woodsman of repute. And he would clear acres for people for the wood so the farmer could plant the land and they would just encounter these giant burial mountains. And what's really unique about them is the Native Americans, the Seneca especially, would say that they came before them. The Seneca, the Iroquois were a very warlike nation, the first democracy in North America, of course, but they overtook other tribes.

And basically all the land they had, they slaughtered other four. But these burial mounds were very religious, very private, very don't go there. And the white settlers came and just started raising them because you'd find a giant mound that was, yeah, 30 feet, some cases, almost 100 feet on your land. And that was a big impediment to have in farm fields on this fertile soil. And they would start ripping them down. Usually there was a very old tree growing from the center, and they would start and rip that down. And oftentimes, they would find skeletons inside and multiple skeletons. And from the early accounts, these were very large, eight to nine feet tall, usually buried in a circle, one instance.

And the one thing that was unique about them was none of the bones exist. And I think you'll find that across America. The bones were so old that they would, quote, crumble upon exposure to the atmosphere. So they'd be lost, but what you have are dozens and dozens of accounts of these mounds being excavated with giant bones being found inside. So as a young kid, I was off, man. I had to find the giants. Can you describe what the mounds look like that you've seen in pictures and you've heard in retelling of stories? they're pretty unique you get to ohio and you run into the snake mound you run into some very unique formations

that are that from above it'll look like a snake and that what we're dealing with in the northeast were basically a circular mound that stood at its height probably 30 to 40 feet again usually it had a trench around the base of it so at first First, people looked at this and it looked like a guard point because if you have a trench and you pile up that dirt towards the center of it, anybody trying to attack you, you're going to have the high ground and they're going to have to run into a deep trench and then try to assault you upward. So that was the original thought.

These are usually just a, you know, diameter-wise, probably 60 to 80 feet with multiple burials. And when professionals started excavating these, they would find one prominent figure buried deep in the center, and then you would find later burials off to the sides. And normally with these, the original burial had been stripped of all flesh, kind of an unusual thing to do somebody who was prominent and worthy of building one of these four. They would strip off the Flesh usually burn above, so set a fire above and use a red tint ochre, and then place rocks above or trees, then burn it again, then pile earth on top. So it was a very elaborate ceremony that went on, and people recognize that these were holy spots and later burials would happen

off to the sides, but even today when a authentic excavation happens, they know who the original person interred was, and it's usually one, maybe two. I wanted to ask you, Brad, have you seen any mounds that look like kind of rock stacks? Because it looks like what you're describing is actual dirt mounds, but have you actually come across to anything that has a rock stacks? Those are incredibly common in Siberia. I understand there's some in the Pacific Northwest. Will, I think you run into a couple up there.

I've got actually eight to ten different sites with them in Washington, Oregon. That's incredibly curious, because you follow the river systems in the northeast, even down in the Mississippi. The Smithsonian gets a lot of, gets beat up pretty hard, people saying that they illegally dug out these mounds and got rid of all the big bones and all that stuff, some big conspiracy. But the Smithsonian, their first publications, were documenting all of these earthworks. And basically they extend from Maine. It's interesting because it kind of follows the Appalachian Trail. Goes down to Maine, New York State, the Allegheny River, to the Ohio, to the Mississippi.

So you follow those river systems. These mounds were all along there, and we're lucky to have the few that we still have. I've been out to mounds out in Iowa, and those are earthen, but then you get to the west, and it changes starkly. And I can't help just having studied mounds for God 20 years now, there's a really distinct difference going on there. It's not earthen. And for however big the mounds, maybe, I just went and saw a mound that is 150 feet tall that still exists. And the guy who owns it is angry, and he purposely smashed his truck into the side of my car for daring to go up and ask him about it. It was crazy.

We had to get the cops involved in everything. I just went up and said, hey, I'm an author. I've written about this mound. And the guy started up his truck and plowed into the side of my car. This was in September. So I think if you live too close to a mound, he had built his house on top of it. I think it will change you. This guy was nuts.

But, again, you get out west. you're talking more stone. And the really early burial sites that I've seen, we have one in my area, which is probably 8,000 years old, which is old in America. It's stone and the stones are unique. The farmer who owns the land who took me out to it, he described the stones as unglaciated, which is a weird term. but it basically means that these stones were brought from somewhere else, and they don't show the wear and tear, the curved edges that usually you would find from stones that have been beaten up during the ice age.

It's a really unique spot. I didn't disturb it. It's been there for that long, and I think it should remain. But that's the only stone effigy I've seen, other than pictures that I see in Siberia and Pacific Northwest. I think that's what you're running into up there. Yeah, I'd be really interested in seeing some of the pictures from Siberia to see how similar there are to what we found. They're unique.

I mean, they just stand out. It's, you know, they basically, and I think you're dealing a lot with permafrost. So it's hard to just bury a body, but a lot of effort, a lot of big stone was moved to elaborately bury someone and permanently mark them. And again, the locals and the natives treat those as holy spots and to stay away. That is unique. And I think that goes back to the land bridge. I think that's our memory, our shared memory of where we came from, and we brought those rituals with us. You know, as far as these skulls that they're these bodies that they're excavating,

so you don't think this is the Smithsonian is covering anything up. as far as taking bodies away. Oh, boy, it's tough. I like dealing with the Smithsonian, and I like them helping me, so I don't want to get in trouble. Oh, I got you. I've never had them stop me from digging into anything,

but I will point to something right in your area. Kennewick Man. Are you familiar with Kenilick Man? I am. Yeah. The battle for that has gone on for 10 years, and basically that has, as a 8, 9,000-year-old man who was found who supposedly had very cocazoid features, red hair.

And he was, what, there was a flood and somebody found him just in the bank of a stream, I believe. And he had a standard Clovis spirit point in his hip. He was scooped up under the federal law and given to, and basically put in the, storage because the natives up there wanted him. They were claiming that he was Native American, but what do you do when you have someone who looks European? So the battle went on for 10 years, and through a lot of finagling, they were able to study him, and it points out that he is one of the earliest ancestors of Native Americans, but he's pretty unique, and that guy had probably walked 2,500 miles based on the foods and grains and what he had eaten. He was not

from your area. He had come from very north, north, probably Alaska. And this was one of the earliest Americans. I think that's where we get into a lot of trouble these days, where the federal law was written just to totally side with Native Americans and respect their rights. however there are some interesting mounds out there that we are not allowed to touch that could rewrite our history and right now scientists are really looking at two distinctly different migrations that happened and i don't want to get too off rambal on you guys but it's something people should know is that that land bridge was there for about 70,000 years yeah it was a long time yeah and it was a thousand miles wide. And there were successive waves of people that came across that it wasn't just all one migration. Exactly. And now we have DNA.

So the first migration, those people probably said, hell with winter. Let's get south. And that's where you get South American. And you look at some of the ruins and some of the really advanced civilizations down in South America. There's a reason why they're able to do that. molemecs and the Incas and some of the very old civilizations who had written writing while the time Egypt was flourishing. They came first and they were the earliest wave. This is what scientists now believe.

And then Native Americans, Native American Americans that we know came second. So that ice bridge was a super highway for 70,000 years. and then all that water that was trapped in the glaciers let loose around 12,000 years ago, and that ice bridge floated away. So who didn't get across? They were screwed. That's why, you know, you look at Putin. He looks a lot like us, you know, Siberians and that.

We have a lot in common with them. But there were two distinct migrations that happened, and a lot of the traditions, a lot of the architecture, a lot of the death rights are very, very, very, very, similar. And one thing that I'll point to that I think science really ignores is there were Neanderthal skeletons found in Brazil and Venezuela. So there's at least two of them on record that have been confirmed through DNA. So homo-neanderthalists got to the Americas. And that's what they weren't supposed to. Yeah, where they're telling everybody. No one's talking about that.

And for me, that's why, part of the reason why I reached out to you, and I appreciate you have me on, is there's some really enticing clues here of what people might be encountering. The one unique thing that all of our relatives have in common, Homo erectus, homo Neanderthalus, Hidalberg genesis, they all have a memory of us. it's not good. Homo sapiens, we are the most threatening, violent evolution of man there has been. You know, we hunt and packs. Absolutely.

Yeah, and there's a reason why these Neanderthals were found deep in caves. There's a reason why they recently, on the Rock of Gibraltar in Spain, found the last holdout of Neanderthals, which was about 20,000 years ago. And that was their last refuge. I mean, all signs pointed to them basically hiding from us. You also have others in the Euro Mountain up to Siberia, that area. So, hell yeah, they came over. They were trying to get away from us.

I always tell people there's, you know, you always hear in the news and everywhere that, you know, man got to our position because of our intelligence. They forget the second feature. and that's the fact that we are an extremely dangerous and brutal species. You know, something happened 75,000 years ago. And, you know, people look, if you believe in God or whatever, something happened, there was a bolt of wisdom that hit us uniquely, homeless apians. And one of my books is a history of my family,

which happens to be America's oldest and largest family of knife makers. the cases. But I'll give you guys a nod. When I go camping and I carry a buck knife on me. Oh, I love buck knives. I got a beautiful four-inch lock blaze that I love. I love my family's bone handles and all

of that, but so I know knives and I know weapons. But about 75,000 years ago, we perfected a technique called the Archulian technique. I might get that word long. Basically, we were sharpening both sides of

stone. It's a much sharper edge. It works better. And it's also, you can do a much thinner blade. So we became incredibly capable hunters. We were able to dig out the marrow out of bones, which leads directly to our brain capacity. Our brains got bigger. We could travel longer distances. You know, we had the protein. And that part of our evolution, people can't explain, but there was about 75,000 years ago. And that's when I think the entire earth flipped in our favor. And suddenly we were incredibly dangerous. Yeah, I wanted to ask you, Brad, going back to the bones that you're digging up,

because this is something I'm sure a lot of listeners are asking themselves. It's something that I'm asking. You know, when you talk about pulling up these skeletons and these remains and they're eight, nine, 10 feet tall. And I could be wrong historically thinking, but I think historically we've gotten bigger over time, not necessarily smaller. And I can understand a few anomalies.

Like, you know, even today you'll get guys that are, you know, look at the NBA, look at different people. You'll see anomalies where you'll have extremely large people, but it's not really that common. And when you start looking into these dig sites and these mounds and these, these burial places. And they're talking about pulling up. And there's one thing I wanted to ask you to, and sorry, I'm kind of switching gears a little bit.

There has been a lot of photographs of these skeletons. I know you said earlier that they kind of poof and go away, but would you agree there has been a lot of pictures taken of these skeletons? And what do you think they are? Are these just anomalies? It seems like a lot of anomalies. Okay. There was a website, and I think it was like prize 1,000, and it was a couple of years ago.

And they did a contest for like Photoshop the best picture, you know, and they did a big contest. And their subject matter was giants. So there are an awful lot of pictures out there with guys. They look like they're in Egypt. They've just on earth a skull that is as big as them. Right. Those are fake. Okay.

Right. Right. But now they're on the Internet everywhere. So people are just like, holy crap, you know. I guess that was my question. It was how many legitimate photographs do you think there are as opposed to fake ones? Let me tell you that there's a dig going on in northern Israel. And there is a tribe and people point to the Nephilim and other things.

but not one of those skeletons is under six and a half feet tall. Okay? And that's being documented by the government there. And this is a really unique tribe. And for me, that made me do a backflip because my search for giants found anomalies. It found DeSoto coming over and a lot of explorers who would go. And when they would first encounter a new Native American tribe, they would encounter a giant warrior.

And basically it was Shaquille O'Neal coming out to kick your ass. And what DeSoto did was shot him. And then they went into the tribe, and these were normal-sized people. But it's given these days that Native Americans, before we arrived with smallpox and all of our disease, Native Americans were much taller than us, almost a foot. probably five foot 10, six feet tall. Europeans, on the other hand, John Smith of Jamestown, the settlement saying he was five foot one. So everybody he encountered was tall, you know, was a giant.

What I'll also say is if you on earth an old skeleton, even your relatives in a cemetery after a couple hundred years of decomposition, all those ligaments, all that cartilage, all the tendons are now gone. the bones stretch out. So if you uncover a skeleton in the ground, a six-foot-tall person is going to look seven feet tall, if that makes any sense. Sure. You know what I mean? Right, right. But there are a lot of accounts that I ran into specifically from mounds, which were just they baffled people.

I mean, you're talking femur bones, two and a half, three feet long. You're talking incredibly big people being unearth out of those, out of the mounds so well that it's a given. And I think a lot of them were the warrior leaders of a tribe. And we can get really, really in trouble here. but if you're the biggest, strongest guy in a tribe, you're going to be given a lot of women to breed in hopes that your boys will be bigger and all that. So when you're uncovering a mound for someone who was very important, that guy earned his rank by being the biggest, the toughest, the strongest. And you can go to an area like Bulgaria. Bulgaria had what was known as a myth of a man called Kalivakov.

And this is the Ural Mountains. This is old Russia. And he was said to be eight feet tall and he would swing a chain and no one could kill him. And everybody laughed and said, ha, ha, ha, that's a myth. Until they dug him up. And they found a man who was almost eight feet tall. It depends on what your definition of a giant is. For me, finding a cemetery full of very tall people in northern Israel really makes me scratch my head.

I wanted to ask you what your take on the Lovelock Caves was. I mean, do you think that was just a tribe of Indians? And for the people out there who don't know the story, I'm sure most people do. I think it was Sarawana Mucka. She was the tribal elder. She said they had, you know, they were doing war with this tribe. and they were all hiding in this cave and I'm sure Brad probably knows

the story better than I do but they at the front entrance of the cave they lit a fire called to them to come out they wouldn't come out and they died well everyone thought it was kind of a BS story this Indian was telling

until I think it was 1911 early 1900s and guys were going in there for backwana and I think they pulled like 60 bodies out of there didn't they? and most of them were about nine feet tall. I would love to see pictures of it. You know, there's a lot of those stories.

I put them in different buckets, you know. Have I talked to somebody who saw the bones and tested them? And then is this just a tall tale? So I don't know the proof on that. I really, I really can't speak to that directly. Sorry about that, West. No, no apologies. That's why I wanted to ask you what you're,

There's a lot of those stories. You know, there's a tremendous story that I'll bet a lot of your listeners know of, right during the Russian Revolution, Russian troops going up to quell a rebellion and thinking they were up in the Ural Mountains. This was 1925. And they got around this cave where the rebels supposedly were, and the troop leader threw a rock into the cave, and the rock came flying back out. And he took a shot into the cave and out came a Neanderthal in 1925.

And they shot him dead. And classic Neanderthal, they buried him. And one of the last living members of that Russian troop gave directions, and they uncovered that body and they pulled out a pinky bone and it's home on Neanderthal. In 1925, alive in the Euro-Mars. mountains.

Yeah, that's big country. There could be all sorts of things in there. There's, and that, it makes perfect sense of the migration of heading up that way north, you know, it's just, to me it makes sense. And I think that's what people need to understand where we evolved from to understand that you wouldn't want to run into a Neanderthal. I mean, a Neanderthal is basically your biggest linebacker on Sunday afternoon. They evolved into these barrel-chested beans.

Their eyes were a little bit higher on their foreheads. A lot of the bones, and we found a lot of Neanderthal bones. They described them as having pop-eye arms. So their forearms were incredibly sick. Their bones are thicker than ours because they were just incredibly strong, not much taller, not really taller, but they were perfectly. designed for winter for cold because their bodies, you know, that chest helps retain the heat. And there's still a big dispute about how hairy they were and all that.

And something that's funny is several Nanderthals have been unearthed with little flutes. So our image of a Nanderthal being, unk, you know, just a big dummy. Flute players, huh? Yeah. They played the flute, man. Actually, their brains, their brains were larger than ours. Yeah, much larger. I think around 200 Cs.

Yeah, independent hunters. And they were just on the run from us because we were killing everything. And that also another animal that succumbed to us is a gigantopithecus. That was just a, I mean, that's a huge ape and everybody points that as Bigfoot. But they were predominantly in Southeast Asia, and they ate bamboo. Another clue and hint is a full skeleton of gigantapiscus has never been found. Only teeth and bones because Chinese people use them and grind them up thinking they're magical. And that's when they first started peering at little markets.

And people would go up into the caves and grab chunks of these skeletons. The skeletons get whatever they could because they're supposed to be magical, but we still don't know how big a gigantapiscus could be. But they were gone, probably 200,000 years ago. Yeah, the Chinese scientists estimate, the latest estimate I read was they think they got up to around 12 feet high. Yikes. Yeah. That's a big animal. With bipedal abilities, too.

And there were a lot of primates, you know, actually from seven and a half million years ago forward, that were bipedal. Everybody thinks that we are, you know, the only ones, but that's not true. They were actually a large number of primates that were bipedal. Absolutely. I mean, we all stem from homorectives. And it's actually a disadvantage to us. You know, if you look at the human body, all of our vital organs are totally exposed. when we're standing up.

It's easy to cut us up and we're dead, you know? There's access to the heart. So if you have an animal that take gigantic antipithecus or take what I point to is Hidalberg gentsis. I mean, that was a huge, you're talking seven, eight feet tall. That's a direct cousin of ours. We were living in parallel with them, bipedal, but also known to go on all four. That's good cover.

You know, if you're in a fight, do you want to be the guy standing up and doing that? Or do you want to be the quick thing on all fours who can adapt and attack? Sounds a little like our type 2s and 3s. Yeah, I'm a fan of you guys. And I just don't think we're looking at one specific race, if you will. I think you're looking at them. Yeah, the reports don't lend themselves to being just one type. and, of course, our friend Mr. Black, says there are basically two species groups with two subgroups in each one of those.

Who would be the hairy, the giant ape then? Would that be type one? Is that the most aggressive? No, the type one would be what you see in the Patterson film. Okay. And the type four is similar, but they're a little smaller, more closely to, I guess they would be more like one of the, Neanderthal would be, the type fours. The type twos and threes have enlarged canines.

They move on all fours, very aggressive. I look at Patty and think of Heidelberg-Genthes. I really do. They were hairier. They're bigger, incredibly muscular. And then you get these interesting reports out of Lake Florida and those areas of a much smaller, very aggressive animals. And then I also hear reports and people,

saying I was looking at a human, you know, or they seem to have down syndrome or something like that. And if you're describing that, you're pretty on the spot with Homo Neanderthalus. Right. And I kind of think that's what our type fours are. You know, all those types have in common the same thing. They were all slaughtered by us. Absolutely. Yeah, and that's why we don't see them or they stay away from us today.

Yeah, they have a shared memory, just like we have a shared memory of them. They have a very distinct memory to stay away from the hairless weirdos with guns, you know, with lightning rods and stuff. Yeah, I'm sure it's instinct to them at this point. Yeah, for me, it's fascinating. I just, I think the term and I use it, everybody uses it, Bigfoot actually does undo credit to what really may be out there because I don't think they all have big feet. I don't think all of them are big. And from what it sounds like, I'd much rather run into Patty's, that beast having to walk away from me, giving me a look back than some of the swamp apes and other things that people are reporting. Oh, absolutely.

When you look at the southern states and we have the type, especially the type twos, I really don't think I'd want to run into one of those. Yeah, and I definitely don't want to have a night like Wes and Woody had. To me, that's terrifying. Yeah. When I first heard that story, I was like, okay, I'm going to keep listening to these guys. That was pretty good. But some of the other stories are just fascinating because it's survival. And, you know, I grew up in a small town with hunters, and I know the woods.

I just finished the Appalachian Trail, like campus country. And there's things out there, you know, that spook you. And I've had it, I've never had a full-fledged encounter, but I've, I've been watched and I knew to get out of that area. People report double rows of teeth. And I've heard any, well, I say reports. You hear stories of digging up these giant bones and these people have, double rows of teeth always seem to come up.

What is your take on that? What do you think, do you think that's something more myth or do you think, because obviously we don't have double rows of teeth? What good would it do? You know, I look at evolution. I look at how you adapt to your environment. Don't see how that would help anything. I've read those accounts.

I've heard of them. I open my book with that, you know. Just a weird anomaly, but it doesn't, I don't see a benefit for evolution to add a double row of teeth over time. Let me give you an example of how some of these things get confused, if you don't mind, okay? There's an incredibly famous place, and this is exactly where this guy plowed his truck into my, inside of my car. This mound, they did a dig in 1917, and they supposedly unearthed a giant skeleton with horny knobs coming out of its forehead. They basically dug up

the devil. And it's everywhere on the internet, you'll find that all over the place. But if you just dig a little bit deeper into Google, you'll find the original archaeological report where they clarified that that was just a joke among the workers because whoever died was a very high-up leader in the tribe, and he had been buried with Virginia deer antlers. So when they first unearthed it, a worker from Maine walked by and he said, oh, he's got horns coming out of his head. No, he was just buried with deer antlers. You know what I'm saying? But that part, the reality of what they uncovered is forgotten because, damn it,

they unearth a skeleton with horny knobs coming out of its forehead. Right, right. So I just, when I think of two rows of teeth, you have to look at how we function. And man, we have appeared the same as we are for 100,000 years. We're a little bit less hairy, but we haven't changed that much, really. And I just don't see how two rows of teeth would help. It just makes it sound more threatening, but I think it would actually be more cumbersome. And if you're eating and forging like that, I think the one thing evolution would probably give you is an extra stomach like a cow.

So you could better digest different things. You know, that's how evolution works. I just don't see a benefit to roses. And I've read those accounts. I've just never once seen them. I've also heard accounts of the teeth having dental work done on them, which is pretty groovy if that happened. I know we were doing brain surgery, we were able to do brain surgery a couple thousand years ago, and there's many skulls that had brain surgery done to them and the person survived.

Again, someone might be digging somewhere right now and unearthing a giant skeleton with horny knobs coming out of his float. head with two rows of teeth and I'll be a liar, you know. But show me the pictures, you know. That's a, show me the pictures. Yeah, you know, that's something I never really bought either the double rows of teeth. I agree. It doesn't make any sense from a survival standpoint.

I look at how brutal it was back then, you know. We beat them all, you know? Big pat on the back to us. And I just think that leads us to a really important time right now. And I think that's why your show is important. to kind of educate people what may be out there and to give a little bit of respect because their areas are being so infringed upon. I think they're going to get more aggressive because we're just, we're encroaching and

we're stupid and they don't trust us. So that's my two cents. I'm more afraid of man. And I ran into a big cougar once. That scared me too. but I just walk away. My experiences were walk away. And if you want me to get into those less, I will.

No, no, yeah. We'll touch base on those. I was going to say, you know, see a Sasquatchewatch up and close, and man doesn't look that threatening anymore. No, exactly. I wanted to ask you, you know, a lot of times when he's saying Neanderthal, and maybe it's just me,

but I'm sure a lot of people out there will automatically think human or they'll think and it may be we really I guess we kind of know from their you know autonomy what they look like as far as shape and size but are you familiar with the

us and them I wanted to know what your take if you are I want to know what your take on his theory on what the Neanderthals actually look like because kind of what he yeah Danny Vendermini I don't know are you familiar with him Brad Yeah, yeah, very. My take on that is the same as like Stephen Spielberg trying to make Jurassic Park.

Okay? He gave us this awesome movie full of all these super cool dinosaurs and all of that. And then within five years, scientists uncovered more proof about those same dinosaurs that totally made him redo the animals, you know? Some had wings. Some had really elaborate colors. Others had these other features. So we don't know until we find what is out there. And I think there's really important questions being raised about a home-on-Neanderthal.

Again, what the skull shows is, and jump in, guys, from your experiences, but the eyes are probably an inch or two higher. you're looking at eyes that are kind of on the forehead. Not much of a neck. You're looking at, we have a longer reach. So that's one thing that's strange about Patty. They were very, it's kind of stubby arms, but God, they were strong. Scientists say they were probably six times stronger than us. They could handle incredibly harsh, cold, incredibly tough winter conditions.

And they were probably much hairier than us. and that's all evolution adapting to the environment and also trying to adapt to homo sapiens, us always hunting them. You know, it's interesting in referencing the artwork that Danny Vendramini had made based on the Neanderthal skulls. I couldn't tell you how many witnesses have come forward and said that particular face with just some very minor adjustments was nearly identical to the type two creatures they saw. And the flat nose? Yeah, the more Australian Aboriginal type nose. And, of course, a bigger jaw.

Yeah, the eyes aren't right. But I had an artist do a little bit of work. We just haven't had the jaw widened, but they say it's virtually identical to what they've seen. It's the closest artwork yet done. Interesting. And just so, I mean, so we don't lose that point. There was one in 1925 in the Ural Mountains. So I look to British Columbia and some of those areas and the highway that is the Cascades up into the Yukon in that area. Great hiding ground, you know, great hunting, too. And, you know, when you talked about them being designed, Neanderthals being designed for cold weather, these creatures are too. A lot of people, they always try to impose, you know, they say, well, if it's snowing outside,

they're going to be lower in elevation to keep warmer. That's not the truth. Every time I found tracks near a snowline, they're always going up in elevation. They seem to prefer those harsher conditions. You know, it's like people ask me about, well, do they use shelter? And I say, no, they like the cold weather. Yeah, and they had to because we don't, you know, so any way to get away from, from us. But there's also, you know, there's also proof that we, that we bred with them regularly.

And I don't know how much by choice that was. But yeah, we can fully breed with the Neanderthal. And that, it happened. They've had weird cases that made people scratch their heads. There is also an account from the Roman army and the Romans documented everything. You know, they were kind of like Germany in World War II. To that regard, they just had tons of paperwork. And they were trying to conquer the Gauls. So that's Germany. And a tribe, they gathered up the tribes to help them. And one of the tribes were specifically described as these giant hairy men who spoke their own language, who did not like their meat cooked, but they came and helped the Romans in this fight. And then they went back to where they were, where they came from, and that was eastward. So again,

that points to the Urales in that area. It makes me wonder when you talk about different Neanderthals, I know there's different offshoots of them or what we think of Neanderthals. I think a lot of people listening will think human, human, human, but we may not be talking about one and the same. There may be a species of what we call Neanderthals that were human, and we're or were classifying as Neanderthals or some of the other classes you were talking about, Brad. Yeah, nanothals were a separate species. Yeah, absolutely. We all come from the same tree trunk, you know, but our branch is much bigger and persists.

But, yeah, we were cousins a million years ago. We were all around each other. We knew giganticiscus. We, and a lot point to that where we probably hunted them. to extinction as well. I think that's what people really need to be aware of is how diverse nature is and how evolution will push the bounds. And I think for one of your categories, I think it's just very likely and given the proof

down in Brazil and Venezuela in that area of skulls of Neanderthals being found, they did get here and they came earlier. and when I hear native accounts of this other hairy tribe, always cannibals, I guess, to avoid, they were here, and they kind of, they have a bigger claim on America than we do, certainly as Europeans. I look at, I look at Homo, Heidelberg, Jenis, and just people check that out. That fits Patty. No, I tend to agree with you, and that's kind of, you know, the only thing I disagree with is the, you said, had kind of a shorter arm reach and what I saw had pretty long arms. Well, Neanderthals. Neanderthal did.

Right. And not the Sasquatch. The Sasquatch is different. Yeah. The Heidelberg gensis had long arms. This thing, this was a monster, you know. This was a huge thing, and they, they are bones. It's Heidelberg, Germany.

That's why it's named that. But they've been found up into Siberia, that area. So there's no reason why some of them wouldn't have crossed that giant bridge. You know, you were just walking. You were just hunting. You're following something. And you're on this giant highway, you know, and you're cold and you want to get away from it. But you want to stay near the water.

So I just see people making that natural migration this way and probably the earlier migration that happened, which was 70,000 to 12,000 years ago. And, you know, in terms of the Sasquatch or the various types we have of that creature, just about all native groups say that these creatures were here when their people came to the continent. So that definitely makes sense. Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, and it's common. In doing my book and learning about giants, it was not if they had,

giants, every culture has giants. What's unique is Europe branded giants as Jack and the Beanstalk, you know, the incredibly violent giant that will come and destroy your village and very, very big giants. And we've adapted them into friendly giants, you know, jolly green giant. Paul Bunyan was a giant when Paul Bunyan was actually a logger from Canada who led a revolt against the British Crown. and then he was scooped up by American advertising execs and became this big green friendly guy, you know, eat your vegetables. So we just have a different way, but Europe, Asia, that area, fear and dread them. I don't know, I guess America is just more innocent or we don't think we can ever be conquered

or they just had enough space to stay away from us. But Native lore is a void. Absolutely. And when they talk about cannibals, especially on the West Coast, and a lot of people don't understand, you know, the term cannibal, how we look at cannibal is eating each other. And the natives would classify people, quote unquote, into different categories. In other words, the people that had permanent, you know, villages and things, they were the highest or most civilized group. Then there would be the nomadic peoples. Then there was a third category. which the Sasquatch fits into that had no homes, they were wild, and so on.

And when the Sasquatches were known to eat the Indians, and that's why they call them cannibals. Plucking children. One thing Wes and I were talking about is just so curious that a lot of the accounts have them like dreamily gazing at young children playing. And for me, that's really creepy, you know. It is creepy, yes. But then you look at this guy put out a pretty good book, Missing 4-1-1 of all the people that have disappeared from National Parks. For me, that's a big conspiracy.

And that's a big thing that we can't give an accurate tally of how many and who and how people disappear from our national forests every year. But a lot of them are women and a lot of younger children. and I don't want to scare people to death. I want them to go and enjoy the parks and all that, but respect the area and know that you're probably not alone, beyond Sasquatch, you know, coyote and Cougar. Cougar, everything, sure.

Yeah, you can get in deep doo-doo really quick. I think it's just smart being aware of what's around and what can happen. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy the outdoors, just be aware. I think, I wanted to run some things about you. I dug up some interesting stuff if you guys want to hear that. Sure. There was a poll that was done a couple of years ago, and it was a quarter million Americans were surveyed. 60% believe in Bigfoot slash softwatch.

60% of these people, just over 70% believe in God. Hardly 30%, about 32% believe in ghosts, which says a lot. So double the people that believe in God. ghost believe in softwatch. And the funny thing is 88% of all those polled said that Bigfoot scholars should be fired. And I feel that was hilarious. Grover Krantz included that in one of its studies. And I just thought that was brilliant. There was another stat that is just great. And then there was some really good work because we have, you know, at the age of data, John Keel, who wrote the Mothman Diaries, you know, about that strange beast.

He had dug into it and he found 200 documented encounters with Sasquatch pre-Patty. Okay? And Patty was 1959, right? 67. 67. Okay. This is why I'm talking to you guys. You know these things.

200, like, written down, documented in the papers, that kind of stuff. And Inc. Thiel was a new newspaper guy, so he was probably pretty thorough. After that, Grover Krantz pointed to over a quarter million. He would call them events. So I think Patty did good and bad with that of making people, okay, I can come out and talk about this. And then it also brought out the loonies who needed something. thing, you know. You have no idea, right, Will.

I was just going to say, you know, the subject is an absolute minefield. And for the unsuspecting, they can get caught up in traps and people just want to, you know, their heads are spinning and want to just go away. And I'll give you an example. When I did the History Channel show last year, America's Book of Secrets, the Ministry of Bigfoot. and I was talking with the producers, they had no idea. And they had already talked to a few people that got Meldrum and a few others on there before they talked to me.

When I told them, I said, look, you know, I'm going to give you the rundown on this person and that person. And they were going to have a whole bunch of really crazy people on there. And I helped navigate them through that. And when they looked into it, they said, oh, my God, we didn't realize how bad the issue is. And it's because, you know, we get all these people that. I think they seek fame and fortune. That's sort of the bottom line. And it really pollutes where all this started from

because John Green and Renee DeHenman back in the late 50s when they started doing this, found literally thousands of accounts out there. And this was long before Patterson got himself. Right. You know, some really good material. And then the more people came into it, Everybody interjected their own personal, you know, anthropomorphisms or views or whatever you call it.

And it just took off all kinds of crazy directions. And that's sort of still where we're stuck with today. It's in Grover Krantz. He categorized, he did four different categories for Sasquatch people. The first was hardcore hunters. The second was novices. The third was tranquilizers. actually there's five.

The fourth was recorders, and then the fifth was professionals, whatever that means. I was just thinking that. But he had a really good point, and it makes a lot of sense, and there was a big data turn on sightings and where they've happened. And a guy was doing his Ph.D. on this, on Bigfoot sightings, and he was using BFRO. we all have opinions on that, so I'm just going to let that go. But he went through, he went through, I think,

3,200 different encounters and reports that's available to him through them. And he's getting his PhD, so God bless him. What he found was this noticeable jump after the Patterson film went public. And what he's really noticed is there has been

really steep drop-off in the last 10 years. Just, and I, you guys probably get the opposite thing because people are always coming to you with their encounters and they're usually pretty current, pretty contemporary. But I wonder if we're at a tipping point, you know. Well, I think, you know what I think the problem was for a long time. And West night joking, you call some of these people flute players, all this garbage come out where, you know, we get to mind, people doing minds. speaking with them and interdimensional nonsense and all this garbage. And a lot of people who have legitimate encounters, and a lot of people really don't know how to come to terms with what they saw

because it's totally outside of their frame of reference. So they clam up. And I can sympathize with that because had I not met John Green and Renee DeHendon when I was 17, I would have never told anyone either what I saw. So I think all of those people had a free, run, especially after Renee DeHinden died in 2001, all these kooks sort of felt they had a free run because Renee pretty much single-handedly kept all these people in check. So for a time period, up until 2001, you know, the trickle of information was coming out.

But people were still kind of on the fence about whether they wanted to tell encounters or not. And I've met many people when I told them what I saw, they would come and, you know, reciprocate, tell me what they saw. One really good one, I always remember the guy within 30 seconds told me his encounter. We'd seen the same creature. And his wife walked up and she said, and this had happened to 17 years previous. She said, you never told me that story. And I get a lot of that story.

Yeah. Like, how do you think that? Yeah. Yeah. So what's happened today now that I think since West and I, started doing this show and kind of pointing the finger at the nonsense brokers and sort of pushing them out and presenting this in a straightforward credible manner, more people are starting to feel comfortable coming out now.

And every paranormal investigator is adding Sasquatch to their routine too, you know? All of course. It's a great gift, and I have a huge gift for everybody in your audience tonight. We all have degrees. have advanced degrees in crypto zoology, you know. It's a great new profession. You can't, no credible university, you can't get a degree in it. You need to be an archaeologist, ethnologist, biologist, you know.

But boy, oh, boy, you could be a cryptozoologist right now. Congratulations. It used to make me laugh. I don't know if you, you know who Renee DeHendon was. I've read his stuff. I have so much respect for John Green. And how feisty Renee was. Well, Renee used to tell me, I remember when I first heard the term cryptozoology, and I think Richard Greenwell started the International Society of Cryptozoology.

And Renee looked at me and he says, ah, he says, that's the insane society of cryptozoology. Oh, that's funny. That's funny. That's great. It's just big business. And that's one thing that Grover Krantz pointed out, and he had a vision to do that. I mean, that guy put his neck out. He did.

I knew Grover. Grover was a pretty good guy. The only fault that Grover had was that he wouldn't make a discerning point between fake and real materials. Yeah. He was. He was. He was. You know, I can't fault him.

I mean, Grover was a good guy. The one thing that he points to, which is great, is. if tonight a semi truck is driving down the Cascades Highway, you know, and plows into one of these and it's dead.

And he throws it in the back of his truck, which is hopefully a cool truck and takes it right to the university, you know? And all of this is settled. Then all of those people, the hardcore hunters, you know, tranquilizers,

professionals, they're out of Everybody's done. Absolutely. There was just a guy who was, it's a funny story. You can look it up. He was busted in Arkansas and he was giving Bigfoot hunt tours. And he got a fine for he didn't have a permit and no permit exists, you know.

But they busted him. And here he is. He's wandering through like some state forest in Arkansas with this big group. And they gave him a $595 ticket. But then they figured out. that everybody in that group had paid 300 to 500 bucks. So this guy made,

and this was for one night, so it's a good gig. You know, this guy made 10 grand and paid a $5.95 fine. And I look at other people, you know, it's a good gig when you get a television show, you know, these mountain monsters guys are awesome. They eat well.

But then you have that other group, the not finding Bigfoot crew. Oh. And, you know, I'm not going to get in trouble. It's hilarious, but Jesus, come on. You know, it's funny. I talk to a few producers, I know, in television and the big joke among all of them from different networks. They all, of course, all know each other.

They all chuckle when they talk about that show because it's a huge joke between all of them. But, I mean, you know, they're in the entertainment business, you know, they're making money, I would suppose, off it. But it is a big joke. Yeah. It's as long as people watch. I'll tell you a story that involves that fine crew. I was doing the Appalachian Trail, the first part, the southern part stupidly in July. About nine years ago started it.

And I was in Cherokee National Forest. Have you guys been there? No. That's squatty. Do you use their phrase? And I was going. and it was a beautiful day. And the Appalachian Trail, you can be too crowded or you can be dead alone.

And I had camped and I got up early and I was so alone in these woods. And, you know, it's pretty much its old groliff when it comes to the East Coast. You know, you're talking second, third generation, but pretty big stuff. Beautiful virgin pines, you know, they built all the dams down there. But you get deep into charity. you can you've never felt more alone and I and something would follow me and I knew it and I packed too heavy my cat my pack was got 80 pounds and I'm not a small guy but I was feeling that pack you know after being on the trail for two and a half days and something was following yeah something was

following me I knew it I was onto it pick up pace had my axe in one hand and my in my buck and the other, you know, and just got to help the hippies that I run into over the next knoll and felt it, felt it coming on me, and I look over to my left and there's a glint. And I look and there's a little pile and I'm going by it. And it was a big pile of antihistamine packets like dump there. And I said, I'm not going to use the F word, but I said, oh, F. They're cooking meth out here. I was just thinking that, yeah, you come up by the meth lab. And I triple-paste it and got the hell out.

So that's probably what was following me. Without ever seeing what was there, you can't really put a finger quite on it. No, and I've never felt so watched. I knew it when I woke up that something was watching me through that. And then I got to the next outpost after that, God, I hightailed it, a good job for, two, three miles away from that meth lab. But yeah, I was pretty happy to be away from that part. And I happened to come upon a guy and I needed a ride to my next point.

And I'll never forget him. His name was Levi, the old bear hunter. And this guy was just legendary in the area and had a truck. He had an engine block in the back of his truck and let me ride with his grandson in the front and took me about 10 miles. up the trail, you know, up the road to the next spot. Got some decent food. And I'm talking to him and I just had this experience. And I said, so you hunt bear?

I mean, would you believe in the soft squads? And he just laughed at me. And he said, me and my grandpa have been going into caves with a spear. So Yankees like you can shoot the bear dead when it comes out. He said, hell no. Yeah, he said, hell no, I don't believe in that. I run into bear. I hunt bear. That's what I deal with. I was like, wow, this guy really knows stuff. And sorry to make this a little drawn out. When I got back off the trail, I find out

that BFRO is doing a Bigfoot hunt, you know, one of their let's go in the woods event for a weekend right where I was. And I said, yeah, I want to go over this, you know, and I'm an investigative journalist. I found a paper who would pay for me to go on a Bigfoot expedition. I can called up Mr. Moneymaker and talked to him at length and just said, hey, I want to go on this and how do I do it? And the second I told him, I was an investigative journalist, he said, you can't come. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, you can't come. And they did it, and he forgot that I had Levi, the old bear hunter's email address.

And I emailed Levi, and Levi sat there and watched him. And he said it was L.L. Bean, trudging through the woods, making all the noise in the world. And he had a bunch of baby boomers and their brand new slickers and gear walking through the woods and Levi. And I'll probably get sued, but Levi found two guys up above in the woods who were doing wood knocks and calls. Yeah, it does not surprise me at all. I've been waiting for somebody to come around to say exactly that because, and West and I've talked. about this before, you know, for years. And maybe they do make noises like that. I don't think they're banging on trees. And I'll tell you, way back in 1990 or 91, I was with a guy who

started a little Bigfoot club after that time period in Portland. I won't mention his name. But we were walking along where he was up with Mike. Team and I, we were looking at a new area. and this is near the town of Cougar and we heard a grouse or no I take it back it was a woodpecker heard a woodpecker and he says he stops he says what's that I said it's a woodpecker he says no I could be Bigfoot communicating

she's you know I said it's a woodpecker he says well if I took a if I took a stick and beat it on a tree that might be a way to communicate well I mean they infected the world with this nonsense It was never in any of the reports prior to the BFRO starting this stuff. The old stuff, just nothing, yeah. There was never, I mean, and I know reports and stories probably better than most people. And I never, of the thousands of things I've read, never saw that in a report anywhere.

In fact, when you go back to the natives, they talked about whistling. And we're getting a few people now saying, yeah, I heard this whistle, I saw this. Well, yeah, that was what they said was how the Sasquatches communicated. They whistled. So I don't know where they come up with this. Well, you know, the wood knocking thing, in my opinion, because evidence is so elusive in the subject. And it's very intangible in most cases. For them to be in pop culture, they had to give people something that they could do themselves.

You hit it on the head. Yeah. You see? So something like wood knocking is a given anybody. and their brother can go out and do it. I was up in Whitehall, Whitehall, New York, which is a quote-unquote hot spot. Yeah, I know that.

I sat there by a nice fire with my dog, ate well, drank well, and just listening to people hooting and wood-knocking each other all night. If there was a Sasquatch, he was laughing right in the bush next to me. You know, that would just be the worst hunting,

any, you know, I don't, again, I don't see where they'll pick up. It would be more of a territorial thing I would think of, don't come here. Yeah, you know. I would think, or when you look at how chimps hunt, if they make any kind of noise, it's going to be part of a complex hunting maneuver where it's more of a communication between each other saying, this is where I am, I'm here, you know, sort of like echolocation in a way. Yeah.

And how they're coordinating an attack on a prey animal. But I would think, I mean, I don't know. You know, at this point, part of me says it's possible. Part of me says baloney. I think it's fascinating. And, you know, we're just so arrogant humans are. And we, of course, aliens had to help build the pyramids. You know, even Indian mountains.

Yeah. Oh, my God. We couldn't look up at the star. and do some basic math and figure that out when it takes years to build a pyramid and a long time to build a mound or whatever, of course they would align it. You know, so we're just so conceited. And my friend, he just did the second highest peak in the Himalayas. I think it's called the island peak. And they went to back villages.

They were raising money to build schools in that area. And he crossed a bridge that was built by monkeys. monkeys are so smart, you know, they will dig into an ant hill. Stick the stick there and just let the ants crawl up that stick and right into their mouth. That's pretty smart. Yeah, they're smart and they're evolving. Everything's evolving, you know, the fastest evolving. Evolving creature on earth is my black lab right here.

Dogs in the last 50 years have gotten smaller and more adapted to be homebound. Evolution. Yeah, evolution happens. I just think it's fascinating. I just think there's links knowing, having a pretty thorough knowledge of man's evolution and our migration patterns. I just think, again, it's that conceit that we have of saying, no, only we cross that land bridge. Nothing else did. And I think they crossed before us because they were trying to get away from us. Sure. And I've said that for a long time. Looking back away, a lot of my Indian friends who told me, it just makes perfect sense, you know, that humans survive by being very vicious. I mean, animals today aren't quite as afraid of us because we don't kill everything like we used to, but we used to kill everything. Everything around us.

Animals all knew that they all would run from humans or the sound of bipedal walking. And the Sasquatches know, in fact, I've got a friend from Klamath Falls, Oregon, the reservation there, He says, when our people came here, the Sasquatch were in these areas, and we chased them out of the hunting areas. And that's why they stay away from us. Well, of course, if they're an opportunistic feeder and a predator, and, of course, you're going to go after the young and the weaker, which means females and young, that's going to, I mean, and I use the example, look what we do. I use dog bites, because that's a really simple and everyone can relate. to. When a dog bites a person anywhere in the country, what's our response? The animal is required to be put down. So anything more dangerous, we take a pretty tough stance on. Now, if something that

we think we're the heap, top of the heap, we go out in the woods, there's something out there eight, nine feet tall, weighs 800 pounds, is fully adapted to that environment where we aren't and will eat us if it has the opportunity to or the mindset to, think what our response would be to that. Yeah. I mean, going back, let's say go back in time a thousand years. You know, they're going to band together and go out and try to exterminate that threat. And let's not think we didn't eat human flesh, too. You know, we were hungry.

Absolutely. And you see even a Neanderthal or you see a big beast that's, you know, people say, ooh, a bear. but if you see something that big, I see dinner and a good coat. Yeah. And my people are going to live another day. It's fascinating. I think the burial customs really is a hot point short of someone killing one or whatever, and you just have to be so careful with the federal laws.

It's a year in prison and a fine up to $100,000 for disturbing a quote-unquote Native American burial. so no one in the audience don't go digging up stuff or at least if you do bring out a real archaeologists so it's officially documented that's even things like arrowheads or spear points

you're not supposed to pick any of that stuff up oh I know people do it it's oh yeah it's really hard to enforce it they come and confiscate entire collections now oh do they wow yeah yeah that's that's standard so people on eBay and stuff like that, they won't just get busted, they'll come to your house and take

everything and give it back to a tribe who probably has only been on that land a couple hundred years, a thousand years in terms of the Iroquois, and those may have never even originated with them, but we can't have them. You know, it's interesting with the burial, with the burial mounds, and it's something I've thought about for a long time. Nobody really looked at the stuff that we find out here, and it's not a lot of people to find the stuff. Actually, I'm probably the only one that does right now. I'm dying to see those pictures, Will.

And that's because of Renee, Brendan. Renee, well, there was a story in one of John Green's book, and Green pulled the story since then, but it was a, there was a logger by the name of Glenn Thomas. He and a guy running a cat skater, we're going to go up and do some work in Oregon.

And the cat skater operator didn't need Thomas, so he went for a walk. And he came upon these three creatures, male, female, and a very young one. And it was interesting to read the behavior. And most people read the story and they see the pictures and that's all they do with it. But the behavior was interesting. Well, first of all, the female kept the young one or herself always between the young one and the male. So that sort of tells me that that male was not the father of that young one because,

and a lot of primates and other species, they'll kill the offspring of another male. Right, right. So beyond that, I mean, that was, to me, that kind of lent a lot of truth to the story. Then he watched these things from behind a tree, and they were turning rocks over, sniffing him, and they would stack them up.

And then at one point, the male jumped on this one spot and just started throwing these, and they're big rocks, kind of haphazardly. and supposedly it was they got the small, you know, nest of rodents that they divided in eight. Then they caught Windyham or saw him and they took off. Well, it didn't make any sense to me that part of the story. I thought, well, something that many, many stories, they can easily run a deer down and grab a meal. Why would they, I mean, economically, it doesn't make any sense.

Scrowding her, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you want to have more energy input and less energy output. So why would you go through all that work to get a very minuscule meal just didn't make any sense? So I thought, well, maybe there was another purpose to that behavior. Maybe the rodents were just a byproduct. Because the hole is actually six feet across and six feet deep, certainly big enough to put a dead Sasquatch in. Well, I talked to Renee about it. Now, Renee told me, says, yeah, that was just one place.

He told me he found seven other sites around Washington and Oregon. No one else knew about him. And he told me how to find him. And he says, go out there, document him, come back, talk to me, let me know what you think. And I even found some after that where some sites have mounds, some have stacks, some have both. But you're talking about, is there moss on the rocks? You know, like how old would you say they are? Some of these, some of them are very old piles.

There's one site that's, and these aren't, these aren't near any place, any human access. They're way out, very difficult to find. One site has nine mounds on it, and they're not big mounds. They're maybe eight, ten feet across, about five feet high. And the rocks are maybe bowling ball size. Huh. And those have moss on them. But the other sites don't.

That's unique, and I'm shooting you this right now, the beauty of modern American technology. But that is, that's very, very Asian, very Siberian and custom. That's just, that's why I'd love to see those people. I'm going to be in, I'm going to be in Oregon this spring, so let's go. I'll take you up and show you. But any of your viewers, just Google Siberian burials, Siberian Mound. You'll get a sense because two-thirds of America, all the mounds, basically you draw a line at the Mississippi, a natural line, and all the mounds are herfin. And they look imposing, but there's a professor, I think his name's Paul Shulie, he did an experiment, and he took his class, he took 40, 50 students for a weekend, and using basic things, they had buckets, they had shovels.

They built a 40-foot high mound in a weekend. So these things are very doable by, if you have a tribe that is trying to honor its leader who has died, you know, building a mound for him to mark him isn't a year. It isn't a pyramid. But when you're talking about being an elusive, very patient, very intelligent creature that's probably trying to avoid us, rocks, you know, know, you dig a hole. And they may very well be copying human behavior. And there's also something very innate with all of us, all home-owned lineage of needing to mark that person, that place where they were.

You know, they were here. And that's something that people, I think, overlook when we look at, oh, my God, it's just a wild beast, a savage. No, there's emotions there. and from what I've gained from it is usually they're not alone. If you see one, there's usually a couple more near them. They're protecting each other. Yeah.

And you know, for many years, DeHen and the Green in particular, because those are the guys that were the founders of the subject, and I learned personally from them, they always thought, because the sightings or the witnesses seem to see an individual. But, you know, when you look into it a little deeper, it does appear they're in groups. and if there's one around, there's more around. And it's funny, too, that a lot of the sightings that I've heard are read upon is people happen upon them or they're kind of clumsy. So like I'm walking down a trail and all of a sudden this giant thing falls down this hillside, you know, or people just come upon them and they're eating berries and they turn around like, oh, shit, you know.

I think they're trying to avoid this, whatever it is. and I really point to the Heidelbergensis and that because it just makes sense until tomorrow in a cave in China, they're going to uncover a skeleton, a full skeleton for once of Gigantopithecus and date it to 50,000 years old. Right. They were pretty much gone. I mean, that's anything they found is over 200,000 years old. But again, they've never found a full skeleton. but if you find one that was more recent, that means that ice bridge was right there.

And they would have had to give up on the bamboo that they loved and all that. But with us hunting them and hot on their trail, I think they would adapt, like Neanderthals and others. And I just think it's foolish to think that we're alone and I'm incredibly intrigued. And however this gets settled, then it had better get settled pretty quick, right? I hope so. Yeah, I mean, I think your business is going to go way up, guys. Because people, now we're all going to be recorders and, you know, we'll be novices and everybody will want to learn about this species. But I sure hope they protect them much to the detriment of our economy, but it has to be done.

Yeah. And, you know, I spoke with, when I wrote my first book, I spoke with a forest ranger who was, that was her specialty with the Endangered Species Act. We didn't talk about Bigfoot, of course. I wanted to know about how the Endangered Species React works and all that. And as soon as something is proven to be real, then the way federal wall works, that automatically kicks in,

and pretty much everything comes to a grinding halt until they figure out what has to be done with it and how to set up their habitat and everything, or designate habitat, rather. It's, I mean, we're dealing with right now. What was the bird that was just, um, that was just cut from the budget? There was a new budget that our beautiful Congress just passed. And they were going to protect a new bird.

And that was cut. Oh, I saw something on that. Right. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's an ongoing thing. I just don't know how you, how you account for whatever this is, how many different races there are protecting them and, and, and doing the right thing. in my opinion and giving them the space to do what they do, I think that I'll make the world a lot happier.

What do we do, set aside Idaho? I don't know that I want to even get involved in that. Yeah, I think it'd be a mess. What were you saying earlier? I want to make sure I say it right, Brad. Is it hydro? Heidelberg, Gensis. Heidelberg, Germany, is a beautiful little town.

Is it Gensis? My answer, apology professors used to say, Heidelberg, Densis. I'll go either way, man. I'm in New York. I think it's about changing. But do you, I mean, can you descriptions of that is really something that that says, wow, this is what people are saying, you know?

You know, I looked at some of the pictures. When you mentioned that, I looked it up, and they were quite a lot larger and really fit the parameters of the Sasquatch. And they're older than us, too. I mean, that's, we're all off the same trunk, but they were one of the first branches. Yeah, and that's just it.

See, you know, with all the gaps in the anthropological record, you know, there's room for all kinds of things, especially, you know, since our forest here, North America, and jungles, you can't produce fossils in those kind of environments. So they don't really know how many different species there were or are. And we don't realize how upturned North America really, is. You know, I go out to Bend, Oregon, right? So that's high desert, but it's heavy lava flow and you have lava tubes and all that. The entire Deschutes River was moved a mile only 2,000 years ago.

When Jesus was alive, there was such a volcanic uproar under Central Oregon that the Deshutes River moved a mile. And that was only 2,000 years ago. And then you look at the glacial, the glaciers coming through, that erased everything. So the fossil record of North America is pretty elusive. And when we're creating laws and other things just to satisfy certain rights when we're missing the deeper history that is America, I think that's sad. And that's a form of censorship.

I mean, right now they're digging, they're doing a mound dig, in Virginia right now that is 16 to 17,000 years old in Virginia. And that is supporting another migration theory of the salutrians put forth by Dennis Stanford who works through the Smithsonian. And he's saying Europeans took boats over here 10,000 years before the Native Americans crossed that land bridge. you can only imagine how excited Ariens are right now about that whole concept. So we just don't know until we know.

Right. And yeah, I just think people that are lucky enough to have an experience and encounter, except for Wes, I think he's still having PTSD from that thing. But if you're really witnessing something incredibly unique that has been going on for a quarter billion years. What's happening these days is we're sort of coming back to something that we once were very familiar with as a species. You know, everybody talks about this being a discovery. It's the reaffirmation of discovery. It's something we, our ancestors, we're very, very familiar with.

Whatever may be out there, we all remember each other. And we've stressed the earth to such a state, and we've sprawled so much and encroached on so much wilderness, frankly, shouldn't be touched because it's keeping our ecosystem in balance. You know, we need to have wild places. We need to have these spots in microclimates, you know what I mean? But we're encroaching on it, and I just, it scares me, you know? You cut down all the virgin forests, what is going to create oxygen for us? And that's my bigger point is it's important to believe in giants.

It's important to believe in these things. But right now, we run this planet. You know, we've owned this planet for the last 10,000 years. And we're beating it up, you know? If you don't mind my experience, whatever it was, we were up in the little and big Huckleberry Mountains. You know where those are? Like northern Schomania County right near Gippert Pinch up?

Yeah. I know that every very well. And we're going to pick some huckleberries and some mushrooms. And I'll let you imagine. from there, but we went up there. I met my friends there and I was helping a lady with a book and she lived right on, I think it's the White River right by Hood River, beautiful area, right on the Columbia Gorge. I had my RV and I slept out. She told me to sleep out, like, go out in my vineyard. She was growing grapes out there. And I parked out there and there was a heck

of a rainstorm and, you know, thunder and all that. My dog's freaking out, but I swear I felt slapping, you know, like pushing on my RV. And I woke up the morning and there were just paw prints, you know, like mud slides down the side of my white RV. And I'm an east coast so I was like, damn, black bear, you know, I had no idea and drove up to meet my friends and we're hiking in and it was five miles into pretty good virgin wilderness and you get into some of the obsidian flows and that kind of world up there. You know, pretty recent volcanic activity. Beautiful.

And your compass doesn't work. Absolutely. Yeah, fun, fun. Fun for me. Like, great, where are we going? You know, where are these mushrooms? They better be good. And there was something peaking.

And our guy who was leading, who knew where we were going, like just said, hey, there's something up there on the right. Keep your eyes up to the right. We followed it. and you could see this. I'm not saying it was a big thing, but I thought it was a person. I thought it was a hairy person like me,

like a hippie, you know, like just unkept with a beard, just kind of checking us out as we went in and we went and picked our mushrooms and got our hawkerberries and we didn't camp. We got out there. We actually went at night.

We got the hell out of there. It just got creepy, but there was only one and I don't know what it was doing. You know, we didn't go that deep into it, but I, that's my one encounter, you know, however ran about it peeking around rocks and trees. Well, and you know that area, that's a, that's a very big area for these things. I hear a Gifford Pinto is I just didn't know what we were into and I wasn't that well versed in that, but they were my friends were totally used to it, you know? You know, where the berry fields are over there in the Indian heaven wilderness, a friend of mine from the same guy from Clamath Falls,

Climuth Indian, he was telling me a story about how part of those berry fields are set aside for the Yakima Indian tribe. Right. And the rest anybody can go to. Well, on the tribal area, there was a group of Yakima's. And I think he said this other guy was from Climuth Falls, or one of the other tribes in that part of Oregon. And the Yakima's invited him over to play cards.

So he went, you know, in their camp and played cards for the evening. And then when he went back to his own camp, one of these creatures had totally destroyed his camp. And, of course, footprints everywhere. We knew exactly what had done it. And as I recall, I think he said they all left the area. They got out of there pretty quick. there's um wow that brings back a really bad memory um i was camping up in the cat skills here and there's nothing more disturbing than an abandoned campsite this place you wonder what happened

doesn't it oh the tent was ripped down the uh i mean none it wasn't like nice gear but they left their little screw-on burner for their propane tanks you know to heat water like stuff that my buddy grabbed, you know, but there's nothing more disturbing than just not knowing what happened there. And I'm just more aware, I think people who hike on the East Coast in this area, it's kind of like a daytime fun thing, you know, but going out west to your area, there's more things to be concerned about, and I think that's what drove my mind. I wrote a book about giants and our belief in them, but I purposely did not include saw squats. I make mention to it

of the hope and the faith and the deeper belief of what drives people. But I think this is just a bigger and more real subject than giants ever were. You know, there are instances of giants, but we might be dealing with the last remnants of our ancestors. I just think we're dealing with something that I think your experience, Wes, really

points to is is evolved behavior and pack mentality. And you experienced something really interesting, Wes, and I wasn't there, but I believe you. And there seemed to be a dominant one and others around you for any early homogenesis, you know, Neanderthal, this is notoriously independent hunters, you know, brute strength.

for them to be adapting into a pack mentality and being, and I underline this, so patient and watching us and letting us just walk by, you know, how many sightings have they had of us? Oh, they're very cunning hunters. If they're ambushing and trying to just use as little energy as they can and they can get away that fast, and if they are that strong and as fast as they say, let's leave them alone. Give them space. It's not something you want to go out there messing with, that's for sure. And I think a lot of fools are. Oh, they do. Absolutely. And we're going to find more deaths, but they won't be able to trace it.

And, of course, we have no authentic, quote-unquote, Sasquatch DNA. So none of the tests are going to come back truly positive, even if there is a little homo-sapian in their DNA. This must be tainted or whatever. So I think you're going to have a lot of people out there having heart attacks, falling down ravines, shooting their buddy. You know, we've already had one guy who killed, what was the guy in a gilly suit and you got run over by a car or something. I mean, we've reached a tipping point of curiosity. So my biggest thing is, and every scientist out there would probably love to have this a settled manner. So without a body or a corpse, which is why I look at the mom.

and some of that stuff. But if someone were to go in there, make sure they go in there with officials. So there's no hanky-panky and full videotape and all that. But if you go in and if someone were to go and disturb an interesting rock burial structure, per se, that entire claim would be invalidated. You know, you might be able to drag bones out there and they might be interesting, or you're going to end up in federal prison for a year with a $100,000 fine. and boy I want to dig in some of these mounds I found

trust me I'm just like yep he's probably three feet below my feet right now you know yeah I can't wait to have you look at that one I know Will was talking about out there in kind of east of me where the moss is growing on it because that was the weirdest thing I'd ever seen that picture was it was weird man it was an odd something's buried there and something big

buried something there it's just an odd picture just a really odd and there's probably what will eight of them is that what we counted eight of them and there's there's actually nine of them there on that side nine of them in that spot yeah that's common that's very common i let's go for a long hike the spring boys yeah yeah that'll be great um one thing i want to leave you with here and it's from my area um we have this place called um guy hill and I'm not going to spell it. It's a Seneca word. And it's on the reservation.

If you try to go there, you will get shot. They don't go there. It's sacred. But my uncle, I like to call him my druncle, my drunken Don, was an avid hunter, and he would go there and hunt because nobody else did. And he would always bring down a big old buck, and the Seneca didn't mess with him. Uncle Don was a Marine, and he loved hunting up there, but he described it just before he died.

I asked him about it. He described it as stonehenge smashed, like giant boulders stacked and like a stone city, but purposely built, you know, like an ancient paleolithic village on a very high hilltop. This area, Guy Hill, is known to be inhabited by a giant cannibal. So you asked at the start of this interview how I got into this. When I heard that story, I was hooked. It's just a story and it's supposed to be. And the Seneca say it's an Erie.

And the Erie who Lake Erie is named after. The Erie tribe was slaughtered on a night, I think it was 1656. The Mohawk and the Seneca teamed up and ambushed the Erie tribe and slaughtered all of them. And that's well documented. And the Seneca also say that we ate their flesh. We ate them up. So when you ask for Seneca, they don't deny it. And the Erie were supposedly such a fierce tribe that you would want to eat them.

You know, you would want to get their soul. Sure. Later accounts, French fur trappers, and this is when I break my heart when I'm doing research, I find a really cool story of some miner with a giant wild man in the woods attacking him. And then I dig back and find out he never was there, you know. But fur trappers who did trade with the Erie always reported that there was nothing really unusual. They weren't big or anything like that. It goes to the myth of if you just defeated a foe that you've been battling for centuries,

would you want to say there are a bunch of pygmies? You know, they have to be giants. We just defeated them, you know? The Sonic and the Mohawk had to team up, but we killed all of them and we ate their flesh. So fast forward to today, you grow up. of these stories of a giant, eerie cannibal living on top of this hill, which is only

eight miles from where I grew up. It's a cool story. And then I was at a knife show selling my book and good people talking to him and Seneca was there with me. And a very prominent guy, amazing guy.

He's huge too. Talk about giants. This guy's six foot seven, probably 350 pounds. He was, he was drafted out of high school to pitch major league baseball huge guy seneca when they're big they're big and i just said hey have you ever heard of guy hill and he said how do you know about guy hill and he said he had we shared the story back and forth for the giant cannibal and he's like i didn't believe any of it i wasn't allowed to go there growing up but one night when he was a teenager. He was at a friend's house and he was late getting home and he was on a three-wheeler

and he took the shortcut along the edge of Guy Hill to get home. And he said he was putting on, putting along, pudding along. And he felt like he was being watched and something was there and, you know, three-wheelers were never the quietest things. And he looked to his right and there this giant monster was right next to him in the woods, just in the woods, striding along with him. And honest guy, you know, this is his story,

but he said he'd gunned that three-wheeler and was hanging off the back of it, going at least 30 miles an hour, and this giant, hairy, monster giant just was striding right next to him. Like it was nothing. And he said, it was amazing.

He got away and went home, and he's never been near Guy Hill since. And this was a big guy. And he had no reason to lie to me about that. But in the end, digging into my book, I think I found the one giant in America and he happens to live on a hilltop eight miles from me, you know. Yeah. Wow.

So. That story you hear constantly from people, constantly, the same type of story. And the one thing, I as leave us out, it was so smooth. Like it was just striding. Its head was not going up and down. You know, it's those little details and stuff. stories. And that was his thing like it was on rails.

Like it was on a rail, he said. Yes, because of the way they walk. They don't, they don't walk straight-legged like we do. Their knees are bent all the time. Fascinating. And that's because a very short shin and longer, longer thigh. It's big stuff. Guys, you're going to lead to a major discovery.

We're all going to share the Nobel, and we're all cryptozoologists now. Yeah. Do it. Well, let me do this, Brad. I want to plug your book. Where can people find your books? I know you've written nine books, correct? Yeah, my 10th comes out this summer.

That's a big novel, historical novels set out in Oregon. On Giants by Brad Lockwood. The full title is On Giants, Mounds, Monsters, Myth, and Man, or Why We Want to Be Small. If you have a Kindle, you could go right to Amazon, grab it there. or if you want, I don't know, Wes, let's throw it up on your website for a week. Give everybody a Christmas present. And if you download it, you have until then. And I don't mind giving it away.

I just want people to know the truth and to get the full story. I'm not here to sell books, even though I am an author. Brad Lockwood, everyone. Thanks for coming on, Brad. Really do you appreciate it, ma'am. Keep it up, guys. You're the best. I think it's like old-time radio.

in a way. Yeah. Yeah. And I think families get together on Sunday night. I grab it on the web. I know when it's going to be done, you know. Yeah. And I go to sleep to it.

That's great. And the Shannon edition is nice, too. Hey, thanks, Wes and Will. Well, I want to thank everyone for joining us tonight. If you get a chance, check out the website, saskwatch chronicles.com. Thanks again, everyone for listening. We will see you next week. Sports betting is sweeping across the country faster than the coronavirus.

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