Sasquatch Chronicles - SC EP:730 Where the Footprints End II

Episode Date: February 6, 2021

Tonight I will be chatting with Timothy Renner and Joshua Cutchin. Their book is called "Where the Footprints End: High Strangeness and the Bigfoot Phenomenon, Volume II: Evidence." The guys write "Despite continued attempts to uncover the truth, proof of the bigfoot phenomenon has eluded researchers and cryptozoologists for decades. Witnesses regularly describe seeing and interacting with something like a large, undiscovered hominid... and yet, such sightings regularly produce evidence directly at odds with conventional scientific explanations. It seems impossible to reconcile these peculiarities—among them mystery lights, UFOs, unusual sounds, mindspeak, cryptic stick signs, and anomalous footprints and trackways—with the notion of flesh-and- blood creatures evading detection in the modern frontier. As remarkable as the discovery of a manlike primate would be, what if bigfoot is something stranger still?" Also check out Tim's Podcast: https://www.strangefamiliars.com/

Mityo, extra dimensions is front and center in the scientific world. No longer just science fiction. I want to understand how it works in string theory and fundamental physics and then potentially in cosmology in large extra dimensions. How significant is this in our understanding? Let me tell you a story. When I was a child growing up in San Francisco area, I used to visit the Japanese tea garden

and visit the carp swimming just beneath the little bit pads in a two-dimensional pond. I used to spend hours looking at them. They would swim forward, backward, left and right. Their eyes were to the side, and they couldn't see me. I was in the third dimension. I was in hyperspace. They were totally unaware that there was a universe beyond their pond. And then I thought, well, what happens if I reached down and grab one of the fish?

Lift the fish up. Maybe that fish was a scientist, and the scientist was a scientist. And the scientists would say bah, humbug, science fiction, there's no world of up. Up does not exist. Well, I would grab this scientist, lift them up in the world of up, hyperspace, the third dimension. What would he see? He would see beings breathing without water, a new law of biology.

Beings moving without fins, a new law of physics. And then I would put the fish back into the pond. What kind of stories would he tell? Well, today, we physicists believe we cannot prove it yet, but we are the fish. We spend all our life in three dimensions. We go forward, backward, left, right, up, down, thinking that anything beyond our pond, anything beyond our little puny universe is science fiction. We say bah, humbug.

We can't say that anymore, because the concept of higher dimensions now is the biggest game in town. You see, in three dimensions, there's not enough room to put all the laws of physics. But when you go to this larger pond, this pond of hyperspace, then all the laws of physics just fit together like a jigsaw puzzle. It looked like somebody was bent over and had their head in the window of the deer blind. It either heard me or smelt me, and he pulled his head out of the tent, stood straight up, and that shocked me. They don't make people that big.

The way it moved, almost as if it was gliding across the beach. I've never seen anything move like that in my life. They were screaming at each other in gibberish. It sounded like a language and they were chumpturing away back and forward, back and forwards, back and forward. I know what a bear looks like and there is nowhere. and there is no way on this planet of what I saw were bears. What's going on? What's going on now, sir?

That son of a bitch is about 60 foot nine, I don't know. Do you see him now, sir? Yes, I'm looking right here. Uh-uh. This is KC. Shaw, and you're listening to Sasswatch Chronicles. Welcome to the show, everyone. Thanks for being here tonight. Got a great show planned for you. We're going to be chatting with Timothy Renner and Joshua Cutchins.

They wrote a book, Where the Footprints End, High Strangeness, and the Bigfoot phenomena. This is Volume 2, The Evidence. What's fascinating about their book is they'll address a lot of the weird things that go on in some of these encounters. You know, some of the things that most people don't really want to talk about, even researchers don't want to talk about, that happen in a lot of Sasquatch encounters. And they address them, but they don't try and sell you on while, if, it's this or it's that, they'll kind of go down the list of all the weird things. Kind of give you a folklore history of things that have happened in the past that are very similar to this.

And it's a very fascinating read. You can get it on Amazon. Again, the book is called Where the Footprints ends, the high strangeness of the Bigfoot phenomena. So we'll be talking about some of the weird stuff tonight. If you've had an encounter and you'd like to be on the show, shoot me an email. My email address is Wes at Sasquatch Chronicles. And if you get a chance to check out Sasquatch Chronicles.com, you can become a member and get additional shows.

Let's jump into it tonight. I want to welcome Timothy Renner to the show. Tim, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me, Wes. Love Sasquatch Chronicles. Love being here. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate you being here.

Tim and everyone out there, definitely check out Tim's podcast, Strange Familiarers. I throw it up on the blog every week at Sasquatch Chronicles. I listen every week. Love the show. I also want to welcome to the show, Joshua Cutchins. Josh, thanks for coming on, ma'am. It's always great to talk to you. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I appreciate you being on, Josh. You know, before we get into your guys' book, because there's a lot of things I want to get into, you know, I've been reading a lot of quantum physics and dimensions and watching a lot of videos on it. And I came across this guy who

he was talking about, he was explaining the different dimensions. And we know that there's actually 11, technically 12, but we'll say 11 dimensions that are actually there. And it's proven by math that they're there. And you know, for me, my tiny mind trying to understand all of this. But he was explaining, you know, in the fourth dimension, how time and space wouldn't necessarily apply in the fifth dimension. If you were able to go there, here's kind of what it would look like. Here's what you would experience and how in the fourth dimension objects are irrelevant. Time and space is kind of irrelevant. You could walk through walls. You could do different things. And it was really, really fascinating. One thing he said that really caught my attention. And I'm really curious on

your guys' opinion on it is he was talking about when you come back from, let's say he went from the fourth or fifth dimension. I think Albert Einstein said there was 11 dimensions. But if you, let's say you're in the fourth dimension and you were able to transition back to the third dimension, which is where we're at, there would be a residue. There would be a almost like a smell. And this guy isn't into cryptids. He isn't into aliens. That's not where he was going with any of this. Basically, what he was saying was there would be a residue. There would be some sort of, and it would almost appear in the form of a smell coming from the fourth dimension to the third dimension to our reality. And I really thought that was fascinating. You know, when you talk about

these different cryptids or demonic encounters or alien encounters, generally there's always a smell associated with it. This real rotten, dirty, wet dog, feces-type smell that people describe. But it really caught my attention. I'm just kind of curious on what your guys' opinion on that is. Yeah. I mean, well, smell is definitely Josh's the, department. He wrote a whole book on smells and the paranormal. But as far as like the hopping dimensions thing, you know, while it's so hard to prove this stuff, right? Like it's so hard, like, who can prove it? But it's certainly, you know, it's a nice, clean explanation for this stuff that I like, but I, you know, I certainly can't prove it. But yeah, that's super

interesting. I've actually never heard that. That coming from, you know, a higher dimension into our I mentioned you would leave a smell that's very, very interesting. Josh, I'm sure you have plenty to say about that. Yeah, I got into this a bit with my book, The Brimstone Deceit, which looked at a lot of different smells throughout all the paranormal, and far in a way, the most common, I wouldn't say a majority of the smells that people notice in these supernatural, paranormal cryptosological encounters, but I would say a plurality, meaning like, you know, a solid like 40% or something like that, are sulfur compounds or, you know, either hydrogen sulfide, or, you know, either hydrogen sulfide,

which is the smell of rotten eggs, is probably the most common of that subset or things like sulfur dioxide that are like the smell of a burning match. And I think that if memory serves, John Keel sort of thought that maybe some of these smells might indeed be the result of creatures

hopping from dimension to dimension. And this idea, even though I didn't explore it in the brimstone deceit, was sort of addressed by our mutual friend, Soraya Azcath, from Where to the Road Go, that podcast, who thought that maybe the reason that you smell these foul smells, these smells of, you know, decay and entropy, because, you know, beyond that sulfur smell, a lot of these other smells are smells of decay,

scatol and indole, all these things that are associated with decomposition, just like hydrogen sulfide is. Soraya suggested that perhaps what people are smelling is the smell of, you know, entropy, the smell of decay, the idea that once some of these things come over into our dimension, they immediately start breaking down. And that's why you notice that smell. I don't know. It's an interesting line of speculation for sure. Yeah, just fascinating me. You know, when I was watching this video, him talking about going from. And it was kind of fascinating. You know, he's talking about because of math, these other dimensions.

You know, Albert Einstein talked about there being several different dimensions and kind of proving it through math. And then the smell really caught my attention, you know, because in a lot of demonic encounters, they talk about the smell. And what's weird about the smell is it seems to be the same across the board, you know, when you talk about UFOs or ghosts or Bigfoot or Dogman. It seems like everyone kind of describes that real terrible odor, you know? Oh, yeah. Yeah, and there's a real problem, too, that, you know, people who study olfaction, who study smells, get into, it's called the tip of the nose phenomena, which is like the tip of the tongue phenomena where you can't remember a word. But tip of the nose phenomena where people actually have a really difficult time describing odors. So when you sort of start to look at this, you've got to say, well, what did this person mean by this or that of the other?

But you're right. Generally speaking, the paranormal tends to stink. And, you know, you can sort of center a lot of them around sulfur compounds. I'm sure that, you know, when people hear a name of a book, like the brimstone deceit, they think I'm saying everything's demons, which is not what I say in the book, because it looks at a bunch of different smells. But there does seem to be a real sulfur slash brimstone component to a lot of the stuff. And I'm not quite sure what to make of that. I had some ideas in the book, but there's nothing, nothing at all, you know, concrete. Yeah, what was kind of your theory on it, Josh?

He said you had a couple ideas on it. Well, you know, to give away the thesis of the book, Wes, thanks. No, that's fine. It's a couple years old now. If you look at sort of the two categories that smells fall into, you kind of have these hydrogen sulfide, these hydrogen smells, sorry, these sulfur smells, rather, predominantly, most of which are hydrogen sulfide. And you have several other types of smells that are all trigeminal stimuli. And trigeminal stimulants are actually odors that stimulate your trigeminal nerve, which is the largest nerve in your face. It's the same mechanism by which smelling salts work.

If you've ever smelled vinegar, you feel your face kind of tingle. That's your trigeminal nerve. And interestingly enough, there has been some research that's done that suggests that hydrogen sulfide, when carefully manipulated, actually can induce a state of suspended animation in mammals and lab rats. So they're actually looking at this possibly as a means of helping people, if memory serves, in spaceflight to have some sort of state of suspended animation. So if you take a look at this, you've got one set of smells that tends to put people into an altered state of consciousness or, you know, tends to knock them out. And you have another set of smells that tend to wake people up. So my idea was perhaps, depending on what people smell or what people remember smelling in these encounters, that I either remember the smell just before they entered an altered state of consciousness or they remember. the smell that happens after they leave that altered state of consciousness.

And again, people are going to hear me to say alterstate and say that I think that it's all in the mind. No, I don't think it's all in the mind. I think that a lot of the stuff interacts with us through the mind, but I think that these entities are themselves outside of us, for sure. I got you. Well, let's talk a little bit about the book, Where the Footprints Ends, High Strangeness and the Bigfoot phenomenon, volume two, the evidence. a huge pain in the ass for the Bigfoot world, you guys writing this book, by the way. That was my goal. Yeah, and I liked the first one.

I really liked the first one that you guys wrote, where the footprints ends, Volume 1. Tim, tell us a little bit about this book. You and Josh writing, you guys both wrote this book together like you guys did the first one, which was really cool because you kind of get a different, you can almost kind of tell who's writing what based on a different perspective, but it all kind of blends together really. well. This book, Volume 2, The Evidence, what kind of evidence do you have and talk a little bit about why you and Josh went on with a second volume? Sure. Well, mainly it was because if we put it all together, the book would be so big that I think it would intimidate people. Honestly, I know when

doing my own podcast, when people send me their books and their big, thick books, the first thing I think is, oh, man, this is going to be a lot of reading. So honestly, it was, you know, split it up for that factor. The other factor was Josh was way far ahead of me because he doesn't have a podcast in writing and I had to catch up. Excuses, excuses, yeah.

Splitting into two volumes allowed me to catch up a little bit. But we did have some reason for volume one being folklore, volume two evidence. And we'd like to say there's plenty of folkwler in volume two. There's plenty of evidence in volume one. But in general, volume two is more experiential and it looks at things

like the trackways and the footprint and the stick signs or, you know, stick symbols, hoaxes and disappearing evidence. Yeah, these problematic footprints that are either, you know, missing toes or have too many toes, or it's one single footprint all alone, or it's all of the left foot or all of the right foot, or, you know, these disappearing trackways, which is where the series gets its name from. But yeah, I think that volume two, and we didn't really even plan to do like a folklore volume and an evidence volume. We knew that we wanted to split it up like Tim alluded to, but we just sort of said, well, these kind of fit together into these two sort of categories. We didn't even realize it at the time.

And that's sort of how we wound up with this little demarcation here. Yeah, let me ask you, Josh. I know in the book you guys go into trackways and three-toe tracks. and you know I get reports of these three-toe tracks and I've actually seen a three-toe track in person and it's weird it reminded me of I guess if he took like a chicken and but made the foot as big as my foot or bigger and then you know stomped it down in the mud that's kind of what it looked like can you talk a little bit about what's in the book regarding the three-toe track and what's your take on it well yeah I think

you really sort of hit the nail on the head with that description because the people who want to say that these tracks are because of some sort of inbreeding or some sort of injury. I don't think that they're really paying attention to what the data set is saying. We would assume that inbreeding would mean that these tracks are really isolated to a specific area. As a lot of people have said, oh, they're mostly in Pennsylvania. Well, that's not entirely true. There are three-toed tracks all across the country. And, you know, moreover, if you do have some sort of deformity like syndactyl, which would be where you'd have toes fused together, it wouldn't manifest equally, you know,

the same on both feet. And then to say nothing of the fact that, like you said, these do not look like, you know, regular hominid tracks that have had toes fuse together. They just don't. They look like chickens' feet or something. You know, and I know that, you know, I'm a native of North Carolina, so I'm sort of fond of the flap that happened around the. Cape Fear River in 1976.

There was this big foot in Chatham County, North Carolina that was seen a bunch of different places and it was about seven feet tall and would scream. And it was all hairy and was running around with this sort of slumping gate. But it would leave behind these, you know, these tridactyl, these three-toed tracks, each measuring about 18 inches. And what's interesting to me is that, you know, here we are talking about folklore already in the evidence volume, but I've got to throw this in there. there is no shortage of entities that are described both in Europe and in the new world,

amongst the indigenous peoples here, that are like these monkeys with chicken feet or these monkeys with goose's feet. You know, for example, in county temporary in Ireland, there was a fairy queen who wanted to run off someone who was sort of had set up his home on her property. And one of the guises that she took was a large ape with Turkey's feet. So you've got that sort of three-toed motif happening right there. So anyway, I just think that the explanation that we're seeing some sort of, you know, a deformed foot just doesn't make sense. And then you'll find some people who say, oh, well, these are, you know, these are alligator tracks where the alligators have slid through the mud.

But some of these tracks take place in areas where it would be just as anomalous to have an alligator as it would be to have a big foot, you know. Yeah, and we were talking right before we hit, record, I was telling you guys about the gin. I've been kind of reading up on the gen. And how the gin is where the term genie comes from in our culture. And the Islamic culture, the gen are very different. And it's fascinating when you read about them because they don't sound like a demon and they don't really sound like a ghost. They can appear, they can eat, they can poop, and then they're gone. You brought up a point, Josh, about the feet. You know,

we're talking about three-toe tracks. I don't know if this is applicable or not. would you discuss a little bit about the gin and how they don't really transform into what you know fully into one particular i don't know what i'm trying to say creature no that that's that's well put actually um a lot of my interest with with the gym sort of as a natural spin off because i'm really interested in invested in fairy lore and how that you know resonates with a lot of these other paranormal uh encounters and you can sort of find a rough analog between the gin and the fairies they're not exactly the same. There seems to be a little bit more of, you know, a mortal component to the gen for sure. But it was often said that whenever, you know, even when they would appear in human form, the gen were said to have some sort of physical flaw that would sort of expose what they really were. And sometimes they would have, you know, hairy legs or hoof feet or something.

But it's interesting when you look at some of the work from this, there's this great book by Anne Slate and Albury called Bigfoot. That's sort of like the, uh, what would you say Tim like the the grandfather of where the footprints in I always call it the grandfather of where the footprints in yeah and uh they had shown a doctor Roth of the Baltimore Zoo these three-toed footprints and he said that it almost looked as you know when the Sasquatch construct and deconstruct themselves the ones that leave behind the three-toed feet they forget to put on the rest of the toes and that's a nice little parallel to sort of that bit of gen folklore about some piece some part of their body always being now formed it's it's interesting uh you know I know that both Gordon Crichton, who was editor of the Flying Sossar Review and the late Rosemary Ellen Giley, got a lot of mileage out of proposing that the gen might be responsible for a lot of different paranormal phenomena. Yeah, it is very interesting, especially when you really read up on the gen, how they can

shape shift, how they can, it doesn't hit me as being like demonic or, I mean, it does hit me as being demonic, but what's weird about it is they can be very physical. And I've had a lot of eyewitnesses on veterans returning from Iraq. that had a lot of really bizarre encounters with what they thought were people. And then they would go talk to the locals and they would be like, no, that's a gen. Tim, let me ask you about the trackways. I know there's a section in there you guys deal with the trackways and how the footprints ends. And it is bizarre.

You know, I used to pass that off in the beginning going, well, maybe it jumped off somewhere. And I remember a guy sent me a picture of, and it was a trackway. and there was nowhere for the thing to jump off to, and the trackway just ended. And I had no explanation for it. And I know in the books you talk about the 1960s and 70s, how in California there was a tall hairy creature. They dubbed Big Ben. But tell me about the trackway section in the book. Well, this is one of the hearts of the research, I think, as we were going into this, because, you know, as you know,

and probably a lot of your listeners know, footprints remain the best evidence we have for Bigfoot. And we've got some wonderful cats that show, you know, dermal ridges and mid-tarsal breaks and these wonderful aspects of anatomy that people like, you know, Dr. Jeff Meldrum are complete experts on. And they can look at that and they can say, yeah, that's, you know, you'd have to be another expert to fake that. And it's just, you just can't imagine that happening,

like someone with that sort of expert. being out there and hoaxing all these tracks all over the country. So on one hand, you have it as our best evidence. You have these wonderful, wonderful tracks. And on the other, you have these disappearing trackways. These trackways that would just end in the middle of fields. I know even locally, I've talked to a few people. And the one guy was very much in the Fleshingblood camp.

And he told me, he was an older fellow. And he told me straight to my face. He's like, oh, yeah, these things turn around and walk backwards in their own tracks, which sounds interesting. And that's the explanation that I think I was told when I first got into Bigfoot. I started at the logical place where I think everybody starts where it's some kind of animal, some kind of creature or relictomid that's out there. Something will be able to catch someday. And that's the explanation I was given.

And I kind of took it at face value. But if you really, really think about that, if you think about, you know, 800,000-pound creature tiptoeing backwards through its own tracks, just so what? So humans won't track it? It's bizarre. And if you ever try to walk backwards in your own tracks, try it sometime. See if you don't mess them up. You'll mess them up real bad.

So on one hand, you have these great cast, these great, wonderful evidence. Like I said, probably the best evidence we have. And on the other, you have all these mysteries surrounding these trackways that just end. or like Josh said, these two or three tracks that just appear in the middle of like an acre. I think they were talking about, in the Abe Canyon case, they were talking about, I think it was two or three footprints in the middle of a two acre wide sandbar, perfectly soft mud. They could not figure out.

They said it looked like something picked up whatever it was that made the footprints and dropped them down in the middle of the sandbar and picked them up again. So it's very problematic and it's almost as if the phenomenon itself is self-negating in a way, and I know that sounds really bizarre, and it gets into stuff like hoaxing and the trickster, which we go into as well. But we never seem to get the full story with this stuff. If I could interject, too, I'm very sympathetic to these ideas that Bigfoot jumps to another piece of media that isn't as likely to transfer their footprints. So, like, Bigfoot jumps to a rock or Bigfoot jumps to a tree or something.

I get those arguments because, you know, there's a wide amount of sightings that talk about Bigfoot having these, you know, incredible leaps. But, you know, the animals that have the largest leaps in the animal kingdom are a small African antelope called the Clipspringer and the Snow Leopard. And they tend to max out like a 25 foot vertical leap or a 50 foot horizontal leap. And, you know, some of these trackways end in the middle of, you know, in the middle of a field with a hundred yards of, you know, barren snow with nothing else around it or, you know, or mud or something. So it just, it doesn't, that explanation might account for some of these ending trackways, but certainly not all of them. Yeah, it's very strange. You know, as I talk to eyewitnesses, one of the things that comes up a lot is pacing. And I don't know if you guys get into it or I haven't gotten to that point in the book, but were they pace eyewitnesses?

And eyewitnesses will say when I stopped, it stopped. And when I moved, it moved. And it was pacing step for step. But it was just outside of my light. I just couldn't see where. And I shine the light over there. It should have been there, but it wasn't there. I hear that time and time again.

Or you hear them where they stay just outside of the firelight, you know, circling your camp. And when you guys really think about that, and I know it's going a little bit off of what we're talking about. When you really think about that, trying to pace someone in the woods when they're on a trail and you're off. the side and match them step for step, especially in the dark, let alone in the daytime, but especially in the dark, sounds impossible. But you hear it time and time again. What do your guys' thoughts? Yeah, I mean, that's, to me, it's, it's, well, yes, it's very, very difficult. But to me, the more, the, like the weirder thing about that is these people never seem,

not never, but very often, never can't see it, whatever it is. They can hear it. It sounds like it's right beside them, but they go to look and it's not there. They'll shine their lights over or they'll, if it's during the day, they're looking. They're like, oh, it must have been just outside of where I could see it. But it certainly sounds like it's right close to them. In the winter, if you're in the woods, you've got a pretty good line of sight. You can see for a while.

So to me, that's almost the weirder part of that. but you know I've heard this myself I've been paced by something in the woods and it's all it seems like it's very on and it almost seems like they use whatever noises around including insect noise to to disguise their movement somehow again if this is a natural creature it's the king of evolution but it's you can stop and then it seems like there's always like a shuffle or like one more footstep beyond that. So it really seems like something's there. Like it seems like like something's naturally there. But, you know, how they accomplish this, I think is down to how they accomplish these other things. You know, how do they get on top of

roofs and not damage them? You know, I don't, how many reports are you taking to them get on top of trailers, Wes? A lot. Yeah. Yeah. And there's somehow no damage from these things, which is just really bizarre, you know. Josh, let me ask you about vocalizations, you know, and I, and I, I just had David and Jeff on the show, the last show we were talking about vocalizations. Well, he was calling for, talking about pacing. It was pacing him out. And he thought it was his brother-in-law. And he would stop and he'd go, David, is that you?

David. David. And so he's calling out thinking it's David. And it's dark and he can't, he's trying to figure out what's pacing him. And it responds back with David in a real creepy, deep voice back to. witness. He says the name of his brother-in-law, David. And he freaks out at that point. But, you know, in a lot of these vocalizations, there's a lot of mimicking going on. And I know you guys have a section on vocalizations and mimic crying, or the mimic that people talk about. We talk a little

bit about that, Josh, in the book. What can readers kind of expect in that section? Well, I think that this again speaks to what Tim mentioned, the fact that if Bigfoot is a natural creature, it's the king of evolution. But it's also got to be the king of evolution in like six or seven different areas, right? So not only this uncanny ability to be a forest ninja, but also its ability to mimic. I mean, apes don't speak human words very well. The most notable exception was in 2015, someone taught a 50-year-old orangutan. to sort of mimic vocal cadence and the pronunciation of some words. But there's nothing like what we hear coming out of, you know, some of these Bigfoot accounts.

Sometimes accounts that sound like Bigfoot knows what people are saying in response. And sometimes just, you know, straight up memory like you alluded to. And, you know, this podcast was a great resource for that. The number of people who have said that they've heard, you know, the sound of forklifts, the sound of trains, all these things that are reproduced to a really, really unsettling. degree in terms of their accuracy. It would have to mimic something like the liar bird of Australia, which if you've ever, anybody who hasn't looked it up, you really should look up the liar bird because

the lyrebird can sound like a chainsaw. It can sound like, you know, the shutter or the camera. It would have to be something along those lines. You know, I know that Ron Moorhead has proposed that that perhaps Bigfoot has, you know, an extra set of vocal folds. But the only mammal that we know of that has an extra set of vocal folds is the koala. And it's useful in producing some, you know, low frequencies so that, you know, might uh, it might help to explain some of these infrasound concepts that we talk about, but, uh,

it does not mimic anything, the koala. But you'll hear these things of, you know, every bird on the book, um, you know, owls, uh, people's voices. I mean, one of the things that I heard a long time ago was the story of, uh, you know, the, uh, the fellows out in California, um, who encountered the, the Zubies, the story of the Zubis, you know, know, these, these, these, these, these, these, these cops who were talked to this guy who said that these things were on his property. And, you know, they would, they would, they would actually call in the chickens at night. They go here, chicky, chicky, or that great story, um, from Pike County, Georgia about, you know, that the dog named the Chihuahua named peanut, you know, that, you know, that would be a big foot that would come to the trailer and knock and go peanut, peanut, you know, um, an incredible level of intelligence and incredible level of mimicry, um, that you just don't see really anywhere. else to that degree, especially among mammals.

But you know, you do sort of see it in some of the magical traditions about, you know, beings being shapeshifters or some of these fairy folk calling people out to the woods, calling children's names in the woods and having them come out. It really does resonate with a lot of those ideas for sure. You know, to say nothing of the, you know, the samurai chatter, which is a whole other topic in it of itself. Yeah, what's your take on the samurai chatter? I think my audience is pretty well aware of the samurai chatter from Ron Moorhead and the vocals that they do.

Do you think that's like their own language that they're talking back and forth in or what's your take on that? Because it's very different from the whoops, the howls, the roars, you know, the very animalistic type sounds. And then you get the Sierra sound and the samurai chatter and it sounds kind of human almost. Well, and the thing about it too is that you read these accounts. And, you know, even though they might not always describe it the same way, you can just hear what people are saying. And I'm like, oh, yep, that's exactly what they're describing. You know, it sounded like people speaking Russian backwards or, you know, it sounded like, you know, some sort of Asiatic language, you know, being spoken from the gut. Like, these all sound like they're describing the same thing.

You know, I do think that there's something to it in terms of perhaps being a language. You know, I tend to have a little bit more esoteric, a little bit more interested in seeing how these things line up with the, with, you know, magical practice and the occult. And we have a mutual friend, Tim and I, by the name of Rinn Collier, who pointed out to me one time we were hanging out and he said, hey, Josh, have you ever noticed that the Sierra sounds sound a lot like barbarous words? And, you know, while I do tend to lean towards like non, quote unquote, natural. They sound like what? They sound like what? Barbarous words. So I really wasn't familiar with this concept.

But they're sort of a fake language that people use in magical rituals. A lot of the early grimace, a lot of the early magical book. would have, you know, some sort of transliterated fake language that was like supposedly it was Hebrew or some sort of ancient language, ancient Inokian or something. That was really nonsense words. But when you spoke them, they had their really guttural quality and they were all sort of mixed up. And they were not really meaningless in a strict sense. They had, you know, this had an intention behind them. But as far as being an actual language, they were not the same, even though they were based on some languages.

So I see a little bit of a parallel to that for sure. almost like the occult version of speaking in tongues Yeah, that's actually That's actually a really good way to put it, Sam. Thank you. And then again, you look at the wild man tradition in Europe And there's actually Accounts where people supposedly had captured wild men But they didn't, and it always says the wild men spoke words

But they were only murmuring. They didn't their words didn't have actual literal meaning You can find this in some of the European works of people like Edmund Spencer He said that you know this wild man would just basically utter gibberish There were words, but they didn't have any meaning. So I kind of wonder if that's describing a similar phenomenon I hear in North America. Yeah, and I want to ask you, Tim, and I want to get to the part where you guys talk about the songs, the singing. And I've had lots of eyewitnesses talk about the singing.

But Tim, what's your take on the mimicking? I mean, when I hear a baby crying in the woods or a child crying in the woods or a woman that sounds like she's in a pain, I'm going to go. I'm going to go and try and help. and it kind of feels like a trap. What's your take on the mimicking that we hear that Sasquash does? It's hard to take it any other way than ominous, honestly, because what we hear about again and again on your show and my show and any number of witness accounts is these creatures either calling or beckoning to children.

Like you said, the sound of crying babies, which is a very specific sound, and we as humans are programmed to want to stop that. That's why the sound of crying babies is particularly annoying to us. It's particularly upsetting because as humans, we're sort of programmed to want to stop that. You want to comfort that baby. You want to find out what's wrong and make it better for them.

The sound of, like Josh said, of them, learning pet names and calling people's pets. That's incredibly creepy considering the record Bigfoot has with dogs. You know, it's not a great record. People, your dogs won't last long around Bigfoot. You know, I've often told people if, you know, people want to go Bigfoot on a regular basis and take their dog. I was like, man, be careful. Like, you might not have your dog for long.

There's really one out there because they just, they just don't like dogs for whatever reason. So it's very ominous, this idea that they're, the way they're learning this mimicry and the way they use it. So it's hard to take that and spin it into a positive, really, at least for me it is. But we'd be remiss, too, if we didn't acknowledge the fact that John Keel claimed that the two most common, quote-unquote, auditory hallucinations, a controversial word, I wouldn't say hallucinations, but the two most common sounds that people noticed whenever they had encounters of the UFO or haunting or indeed, you know, he called them monsters. But, you know, Bigfoot variety were the sound of a baby crying and a car door slamming. And of course, you know, Ron Moorhead has talked about hearing a card door slam way out in the wilderness by the Sierra side as well. I've heard the card door slam twice myself.

I've recorded it once. I have it on a recording of it. Tell us about that, Tim. The first time I was on Toad Road, so the first time I was on your show, my first book I wrote about Toad Road, and this was at a later date, this was a couple years ago. I try to hike it once a year, and I was out there with a friend, and I heard a cardboard sound. It sounded like it was right in my right ear. as we're walking down the trail. And I looked around for a four-wheel drive.

I'm trying to think, how did somebody get a car out here? And that when I was like, wow, that was really weird. But, you know, maybe it's just the way sound carried up the creek or something. But the second time, when I actually got it recorded, I was on a Bigfoot investigation. Somebody had seen a creature by the river and had a, like a class B, like an auditory account. So he had two kind of encounters. And I went down there and it was just about nightfall and we were way out. My buddy and I were miles out into the woods because we found where we thought this guy was.

The witness didn't accompany us. He gave me all the details and then I kind of went out there. We thought we found where he was and we just decided to hike going back further into the forest there. And we were like I said, we were miles out at least two, three miles into the. the forest, into the woods there. And here's this sound of a car door, right as it's getting dark. And I looked around everywhere. And in fact, on a later date, we came upon a hunter out there.

And I asked him, because we went back, I asked him, where's the nearest parking area? And he's like, oh, it's way up, you know, over this ridge. You know, it's long, long way away. Miles probably from where we were, at least a mile. So I don't know what that could have been, but I got it on, I was running a recorder. and I got the sound on a recorder. So it's completely inexplicable. Sounds just like a car door slamming.

It's very strange. I know Ron Morhead to talk about that. You know, in his Sierra camp, there's nowhere. You can't drive a car up there. Right. But he describes a lot of weird things. You know, like they're camping torn apart one night and just being destroyed. And they come out of the shelter when it's all over with and nothing has been moved.

Bizarre. Yeah. Yeah, they had weird lights up there. They had at one point, they said they could like, rub their feet on the ground and make these lights come on these these weird lights i mean that's just completely bizarre they had a light in the shelter one night um al barry the guy that that uh who wrote that book bigfoot with anne slate that josh was talking about earlier he was he was up there with ron in the 70s and uh he would you know experienced a lot of this stuff i think al barry

recorded some of the serious sounds that that were familiar with today but yeah there just loads of really weird stuff went on up there, including like that sound of the, the, what seems to be like that tube and throat singer sound that, uh, that Josh talks about. Yeah, and I want to get into that. Um, you know, I've had, there's a section, um, there's a section with vocals and then there's a section you guys talk about with, uh, I believe it's singing, imprasound and altered states of consciousness. I remember the first time, I think it was a lady in Canada that was talking about it. She said a reminder of like someone at an opera or, but they would only do two or three different tones. And I had another guy who came on and he talked about it.

He said, you know what it reminded me of? And I said, what's that? He said, do you ever heard the Gagorian chant? And I said, yeah, I have. And he goes, it reminded me of the Gagorian chant. And it made me think because I knew the Book of Enoch and the Gagorians were actually the watchers in the book of Enoch. and this group it makes you wonder where the gorgorian chana actually comes from but josh tell us a little bit about the the singing section and the imprasound and well just the singing section we get to the infestown

well this might take this might take a little a minute um but it really ties into what i was talking about earlier with with my other book and these all this idea of altered states of consciousness playing a role um it's been noted in the ufo community for a long time that a lot of ufo encounters tend to mimic what people experienced during psychedelic trips. And there is evidence to suggest that psychedelic trips are not just hallucinations, that they actually have some sort of basis in reality. And a lot of people in the UFO community, at least in the circles that I travel in, are sort of amenable to the idea that these altered states of consciousness we can all slip into

because we're all carrying certain hallucinic compounds in our brains. That's the shortest way to put it. and that somehow there is some other intelligence that can activate those compounds and can actually communicate with us through that medium. And that's why you have a lot of these high strangeness things, well, obviously in Bigfoot, because that's the subtitle of these books, but also in these UFO accounts. So it occurred to me that this really hasn't been a lot of discussion of this as a possibility in the UFO, sorry, in the Bigfoot community. And I can certainly understand why. There aren't a ton of encounters where people report, you know, taking mushrooms and seeing Bigfoot, although, you know, find a handful of them here and there. But there is an odd tendency for people to sometimes report a buzzing sound or a humming sound sometime in close proximity to their interaction.

I know Brenton saw one. Notice that. I think there are some folks actually on your forums that I looked at when I was writing this book. that have reported similar things as well, and that does tie into this idea of singing. And I'll sort of get to that in a moment. You mentioned that sort of opera comparison. That's exactly the same comparison that Doug Hadrissack made at the Snowgrove Lake. Snowgrove Lake, right?

Yeah. The Snowgrove Lake Camp, he said he heard someone that sounded like they were, you know, an opera singer warming up or something. Yeah, less than a lot of one. I remember that show. It might have been from that show that I got that citation. But, you know, you do hear these reports of people singing, and, you know, if it's something like Gregorian chant, that implies sort of a modal, you know, melody that's being spoken. But there is a really compelling description of some sort of singing in that Barry and Slate book that talks about noticing this low droning sound that welled out of the gut with a bunch of ums and Oz and O's. And Barry actually compared it to a style of singing that he heard in the 70s in a Japanese monastery.

Now, if you look at some of the practicing people from the Ainu culture in Japan, they actually practiced overtone singing up until about, I think, the last practitioner died in the late 70s, 76 or so. An overtone singing is what people call tube and throat singing, which is where you produce, I wish I could do it, so I could demonstrate. but people produce a fundamental pitch with their voice, and then they manipulate their vocal cords, so they're actually sounding a second pitch over it. And that is something that, you know, seems to correspond directly to what Barry experience, but also I recall that you had a witness on here

who compared Bigfoot to making this sort of didgeridoo-like sound. And that's interesting, and that ties into the Aldred State's conversation because drones, buzzes, and even specifically the didgeridoo are used by some people, by some cultures, you know, Australian Aborigines in the case of the didgeridoo, to initiate these altered states of consciousness where they are able to contact the other world, to contact the spirit world.

And to make matters even more compelling, that sort of tuven throat singing sound, which again, same concept as didgeridoo, you have your fundamental pitch with another pitch sounding over it, that sort of tuven throat singing, overtone singing almost didgeridoo like. sound has appeared in the background of one of Tim's on-site interviews that he did put the Bigfoot witness. Really? I didn't know that, Tim. Yeah, yeah, I captured about, you know, maybe almost a minute of it, but we were talking the whole time.

And we didn't hear it when we were there. And he had several encounters. It was actually somebody that was on one of your very earliest shows, Wes, but he was local to me and he contacted me, and I met him on the site of his show. He'd been screamed at. I think that's the only thing he talked about on your show, and he'd had a couple other encounters since them. But he took me to this place. It was less than a mile probably as the crow flies away from his encounter.

And he was, he went to take me there because there's a legend of this ghostly woman in white around this pond. But I was interviewing him, and as I'm playing the interview back, I hear, now it was very cold when I was interviewing him. And I remember, I didn't put my code on. he was driving me to these different locations that day, and I left my coat in his truck, and I remember I just wanted to get the interview done. It was that cold. So I might have missed it on account of that,

but I asked him, you know, did you hear this when I sent him the clip of it? He said, no, I didn't hear it either that day when we were there. So it's the whole time we're interviewing. You just hear this low, low, low kind of, I call it a groan almost, but it is constant, like a low droning vocal beneath us. And there's about, you know, maybe a second or two

where we're not talking, can hit where I clipped it out and you can actually hear this sort of sound. And boy, you know, it's there, whatever it was. But again, we did not hear it when we were there, you know, doing the interview. Tim, did you put that up on your podcast, Strange Familiarers? I did. And I'll drop you the clip of it in a bit. Yeah, please do.

Go ahead, Josh. I was just going to say to sort of further drive home this connection that might seem sort of spurious about, you know, singing and buzzing and alter states of confidence. consciousness. You know, I found a report from 1934 in Canada where this woman who was in British Columbia heard a buzzing sound. It sounded like a hummingbird really close to her as she's washing clothes in the river and she turns around and there's a bigfoot there. And she hides her eyes because she knows that this sound has something to do with the creature's ability to hypnotize people. 1976. Somebody in Pierce County, Washington is retrieving clay pigeons and he sees this eight-foot

Bigfoot stand up. He hears this buzzing sensation. He experiences time slowing down, tunnel vision, and paralysis as he's looking at it. And he's suddenly able to break this sort of curse. And I had alluded to, I had alluded to, you know, Brent and Salon experiencing this too. When this sound hit him, he was absolutely, or a witness that he was talking to in Oklahoma. The witness got hit with this and was barely able to push through it. And there was this giant roar. but the person right beside him didn't hear or experience any of this stuff either. So there seems to be some sort of consciousness component at play with this. And when you fold in things like MindSpeak that people talk about, which happen, I know, I'm a listener from the OG days, Wes. So, yeah, we used to talk about flute players, and I used to kind of be right there with you. But these accounts of Mindspeak are just too prevalent to ignore. I mean, you could write an entire book on Bigfoot MindSpeak.

So there seems to be some sort of consciousness component to this that we're not really addressing, I don't think. Yeah, I think the frustrating part is, you know, it doesn't happen in every encounter. If it happened on every encounter, you know, it would be a lot easier to come up with a conclusion. The problem with Sasquatch is every encounter is almost kind of different. They're the same, but they're different in the sense of what happens. And, you know, a lot of the Native Americans they did talk about don't look big foot in the eyes because they'll hypnotize you. some Native Americans will say don't look them in the eyes because it makes them mad but I have heard the hypnotize I'll go and solve this mystery right here guys

it's infrasound what's the next chapter we're going on yeah that really is the really is the catch-all and you know some of the people that I some of the people in the cryptosological community who are often quick to say don't use one explain to explain another we'll turn around and say it's all infrasound and you know that's a compelling hypothesis but it don't don't just say infersound and, you know, dust off your hands and walk away. Like, we've got to unpack that a bit for sure. That's kind of like the sound version of saying, like, all this, all this glowing eye stuff is just, it's just eye shine. It's a really simple explanation that doesn't

quite really explain it. Yeah, and I want to get into that, Tim, the eye shine. I want to ask you guys, you know, when you look into infrasound, there's, there is some ways you could explain, go, well, that could have, I mean, we don't know if Bigfoot does Infrasound or not, first of all, but you could kind of go, well, that might be infrasound or it might, but there's a lot of things that happen in encounters that you can't explain away with infrasound. Infrasound doesn't affect someone the way they're talking about being affected. Yet you're right, Josh, a lot of people pass it off and go, that's infrasound. Yeah, I mean, you have people doing things. We talk about this a little bit more in volume one, but you have people doing things like

having some sort of forced amnesia. Oh, it's infrasound. You have somebody not seeing the big foot or suddenly forgetting to turn on their camera. camera. It's infrasound. And, well, again, that might be, a good answer in some of these cases. That's the exact same kind of stuff that you see crop up time and again in UFO reports. People have these exact same reactions to seeing a UFO. You know, I don't know why I didn't take a camera. I had my camera on me. And that sort of gets into a little bit of the self-negation that Tim alluded to earlier in the trickster phenomena, not to take us off into that tangent just yet. Yeah, I mean, there's so much to it, Josh. There's so much to this, to where we

don't know. And I always hate, you know, when people just, and I was one of them at one time where you try, the problem is you don't want to say, I don't know. Right. Right. It's almost, I don't know what it is, if it's ego or anything else, but you don't want to say, I don't know. And at the other day, nobody knows anything. And it always cracks me up. You hear these researchers go, well, you know, there are, there's no experts in the Bigfoot world. And then they'll go on for the next 20 minutes to telling you about them being an expert in the Bigfoot world. And it doesn't help, you know, to just bypass this weird stuff because it does go on. It actually goes on a lot more than most people would think. The guy who sees a Sasquatch cross the road and he's out hunting and, you know, it's a three or four second encounter.

Yeah, nothing really weird happened except for seeing something that shouldn't exist. But people who have had other encounters with them, there's a lot of weird stuff that goes on. And again, a direct line that you can draw to people who see a craft in the sky. and say, oh, it must be aliens, and the people who have abductions have a lot stranger metaphysical experiences, for sure. The repeat encounter thing is incredibly important, and again, when I first got into this, I was fully in the flesh and blood camp. You know, honestly, it must be a creature.

Ditto, yeah. Yeah, I'll figure it out. We'll solve this, you know, in my lifetime, they'll catch one. And I really just don't have faith that that's going to happen. I don't think they probably can be caught. Or if they do, they're caught, and then they disappear real quick, which is the whole other chapter. But the amount of weird stuff, I mean, that's the thing I was told. Well, this weird stuff, it barely ever happens.

It only happens in a rare amount of cases. Well, like Josh said, put these two books together. It's, you know, six under some pages filled with weird stuff. And we weren't exhaustive. We didn't put everything down. We chose a few cases to illustrate each concept. There's a ton of it out there. There's a ton of this.

There's no shortage of weird stuff with Bigfoot. And again, we said it for the last time we were on here, but I think it bears repeating. Tim and I are pretty darn agnostic about what this is beyond the fact that we are convinced that people are seeing something that is not conform to the established reality that we all exist in in consensus. Beyond that, we're not saying that Bigfoot is a fact. fairy or a ghost or an alien or, you know, a witch or anything like that. But that there are these similarities to these different traditions that you can draw. And it seems like some of this

evidence is genuinely anomalous and does bear out the fact that we're dealing with something that is stranger than just a flesh and blood creature. Yeah. And that's a point I like that you just made Josh. You guys don't really go into it trying to sell, you know, Zorth is our leader. And we're the chosen ones explaining, you know, what's going on. on in the Bigfoot world. You guys go, hey, this weird stuff's going on. Here's some examples. And, you know, Josh has, and you too as well, Tim, both you guys understand folklore. And you can kind of pull examples from the past. That's why it's so enjoyable to read. I wanted to ask you the plus on top of that, you guys are both fantastic writers. But,

Tim, let me ask you about the Ais Shine. You know, when I first started taking these Aishine reports, I would go, well, they must be mistaken. You know, it was all ego talking. And then once you put your ego aside and go, well, you weren't really there. And B, you're not really that smart. Maybe shut your mouth and just listen. A lot of people will say it was an eye, especially coming from hunters. They'll say it was not eye shine. It was eye glow. And we have everything from red, blue eyes to, you know, yellow, orange, different, which makes it even more weird. Yeah. But there's a lot of those reports. Can you talk about the eye shine section in the book? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I really got into it.

It's really interesting because, you know, again, when I first got into it, it was, you hear this tapidum lucidum. You hear it, oh, it's just, it's just eye shine. It's reflection. And I make the difference in the book between I shine and eye glow. I shine being reflection, eye glow being self-illuminated eyes. And so, you know, eye shine is, sounds like a great explanation until you start digging into it. And you realize that there's no. No higher order primates, so no great apes, for instance, no hominids have a tapidum lucidum,

which is a reflective layer. So if you're driving down the road and you see your headlights hit a deer and the eyes shine back, that's eye shine and they have something called a tapidum lucidum. It's a reflective layer on the eyes that helps them gather, you know, for nocturnal creatures, helps them gather a lot of light, but that will reflect in your beams. But no great apes have this. And in fact, only some low-order monkeys and the primates have it. I think the lemurs might have it and some lower-order monkeys like that.

But no great-apes have it. So you have something in a Tapidon, lucidum, if that is what it is, and I don't think that's the case, that is unique to this, if it is a great ape or a relicotomid, it would be unique to it. It would have this unique thing that no other great apes or relict hominids have. Now, if we talk about self-illuminating eyes, which, like you said, I've talked to a number of witnesses who are adamant that it was not reflecting, it was illuminating. These lights were shining. These eyes were shining, rather. They were lit up. There was nothing to reflect, they'll say, or whatever.

I think Cliff Berrickman on his website, he puts forth the next. explanation that has to do with red eye on cameras. And if you look at pictures, sometimes people with flash photography, people's eyes seem to light up in flash photography. And what that is, it's actually the flash reflecting on the back of your eyes. And that's why it'll come out red. That's why it's red eye. Actually the, I think it's the little blood vessels. Yeah, it has nothing to do with the actual eyes.

It's more of the camera, right? Right, Tim? Yeah. Yeah, it's just the reflection off of your eyeball, essentially. Berrickman was saying like, well, maybe Bigfoot's eyes are so big that the pupils are always open and it's gathering all this light and you're basically getting this red eye effect all the time. It's a very interesting explanation for red eye glow. It does not explain all of these other different colors, every color of the rainbow and sometimes changing. I've taken, and I know you've had Jeremy from Texas on, he's been on my show too, where he talked about the changing lights in the eyes.

He watched him go from red to blue to green. I forget the order. But they were just changing. He described them like Christmas lights. There's no natural creature that has anywhere in all of the earth that has glowing eyes. And if you think about glowing eyes, that really would mess up your night vision, at least the way we understand how vision works. So here we have something that's not only not in any ape, but not in any creature at all. So how does this thing evolve this ability and what is it used for?

And the only thing I can do is go back and look in folklore. So while no animals have glowing eyes, if you look back through folklore, lots of these things like fairies and gin and werewolves and vampires and all these different accounts of these supernatural creatures with glowing eyes. So, you know, what does it mean? I don't know. How does it work? I don't know, but I think it's very, very interesting that the only other place you get glowing eyes is in the accounts of these supernatural creatures. I think what Cliff Brockman's doing is trying to explain, you know, why an eyewitness would say the eyes were glowing. I understand where he's coming from.

You know, with regard to the eyes, it's weird. You know, you do get red, blue, yellow, you know, a multitude of colors of this eye glow that eyewitnesses report. and then every once in a while you'll get, I probably had a couple of them where eyewitnesses will talk about their eyes changing color. It's very strange. Yeah, like I said, Jeremy, he was on both our shows. He said they changed like Christmas lights.

It's very bizarre. But once again, you know, you can't take a witness and say, I'm going to believe him when he talks about this big hairy creature in the woods because I like the idea of big hairy creatures in the woods and say, but he was crazy when he saw the eyes change colors.

You can't do that. That's not intellectually honest. You have to take the witness report as they tell you. And if he says he saw a big hairy creature with eyes that changed, you know, color, you got to go with what he says. At least I feel you do. What about science, though? I'm just joking. I mean, that's a good point. But the people who say, what about science?

I mean, you've got to look at, it's kind of a deficit, I think, in a lot of cryptozoologists. education is that they've got to look at what's happening in sci research. And there are some really compelling people who are looking at sci research. You know, University of Cornell professor, Daryl Bim, Dean Radin, I mean, these people who are doing, you know, psychic research in laboratory settings and are getting statistically significant results. So, yeah, but science. Yeah, sure. Science is on our side eventually, right? Well, it's fascinating. You know, most of people who are in the Bigfoot world are Christians. And they go to church and they read their Bible. And you ask them, do you believe in demons?

And they'll go, absolutely. Well, on a scientific level, explain to me demonic possession. When a demon possesses a person, explain to me on a scientific level. Walk me through that. And they can't. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really hard to.

And I think that's the default of science and probably Western philosophy in general that we've separated those two ideas so much. And I understand the value of it. I mean, there is a value, like, you know, gravity works. If you drop an apple, it's going to fall, you know. So there's certainly a value to, you know, applied science and experimental science. But there's something about these accounts with this weird stuff, Bigfoot among him, that has to do, I feel, with humanity. And when you bring in the witness, like, so science hates witnesses. You and I, West, we love witness accounts.

I know that's, you know, I'll listen to them all day. That's why I love Sasquatch Chronicles. I believe people. I honestly, I don't think people lie about this stuff. I don't think they have a reason to. But science in general does not like witness testimony. They'll say, well, you know, people have, you know, failed memories, and they're just inconsistent, and their memories colored by this and that.

And so science doesn't like it at all. So what we have in the end, when it comes to Bigfoot or any of this stuff, really, but let's talk about Bigfoot. What we have in terms of Bigfoot is the vast majority of stuff, You know, we've got some casts and we've got some hair samples and some scat samples and stuff. But the vast majority of what we have is witness reports. And if we're going to throw those out the window, we don't have a lot left. And I certainly don't want to do that.

I couldn't agree more. You know, it's frustrating. That's why I backed away from most researchers because, like you said, Tim, it's not honest to, I'll paint the picture of an ape running through your yard. But if the ape says your name or if it seems to vans it. or I'm going to leave that part out and it's very dishonest to do that. You know, one of the things I want to ask you about, Josh, is this mindspeak. And I've been hearing it for a long time. And I think when you hear mindspeak from some of these in the Bigfoot world that are

cult leaders, you know, that they're the chosen one, it's easy to go, this guy is a flute player, this guy's nuts. I'm not, you know, this guy's, you know, he's now the Bigfoot are predicting if Trump's going to win or if Trump's coming back to office. It's just like, you know, but when you hear it from a hunter who goes, there's a weird part of this encounter I don't really want to talk about, but here's what happened. I heard, and it was like a weird voice in the back of my head saying something or like when I had less drought on.

I wasn't prepared for Lesz to tell me about his mindspeak incident. Yeah. But it does go on. This is another thing. Now, does it happen in every encounter? No. It's hard to measure this, this mindspeak, but it does go on. Talk a little bit about that, Josh.

What's in the book and what's your take on the mindspeak? Well, you know, there are plenty of different cases of mindspeak. I think in the book we have like 10 or 15 that I just really did selectively from the 70s through the current era. You know, not all accounts are created equal, right? there are you know bigfoot witnesses who should be believed and there are big foot witnesses who shouldn't be believed you know um and the similar similar situation is happening with mind speak i'm sure you know i'm sure that some of these can be attributed to someone's inner monologue and i think some of these are genuine um and it seems to be that uh whatever these other intelligences are

that operate with us prefer most of the time to speak telepathically i mean it's a very very, very common, I would say, almost, almost to an exclusive degree trope that you'll find in a lot of alien abduction reports. You know, their mouths don't move. They speak to you telepathically. You know, you could go one of two ways with this. You could go the route that I was sort of alluding to earlier about sci phenomena, becoming more and more of an emergent reality that we're going to have to incorporate into our scientific method. You know, science has done great things. Let's not throw all that out. We just need to incorporate this extra, this extra perspective into it.

So that could be a possibility. If we are dealing with some sort of flesh and blood creature, which seems less and less likely to me personally, you know, it's entirely possible that they might have harnessed this ability as well. And then if you want to take a look at this from, you know, a broader, more folkloric perspective, there is a very common theme that you'll find a lot of world religions of, you know, theophani, the idea that to behold or to interact,

with the divine somehow means that you'll be hurt or injured or, you know, your human body just literally can't handle it. And I've wondered if, you know, again, maybe a lot of these stories of Theophony are really sort of a result of interfacing with these entities and being spoken to telepathically because, you know, if they actually spoke to us, our bodies wouldn't be able to handle it. But you find a lot of these different, uh, mind speak messages tend to sort of circle. around the same things. You know, back up, you know, no danger, don't shoot, you know, don't take a photo of me, leave and you'll be okay, those sort of things. And then also something that, you know,

you pointed out a while back on this show, that a lot of these messages also tend to have these sort of environmentalist messages, you know, scolding us for not being good stewards of the environment or even in some cases, you know, sort of semi-apocalyptic messages, which completely dovetails with that alien contact experience, particularly the contactees of the 50s and 60s. So, you know, an idea that I've played with as well

is that if Bigfoot does represent something more along the lines of a forest spirit, a guardian of the forest, a protector of the forest, then perhaps this is almost like them being sort of a missionary for animism, if you would say. So like a missionary

for being more in touch with the earth, trying to encourage people to return to that sort of way of lifestyle that our ancestors once had, possibly, or maybe know of that. You know, I really don't know. But I think that, you know, to your point that you said earlier about believing witnesses and stuff, I mean, yeah, mine speak is hard to swallow, but you can only walk back parts of people's stories so far until you end up saying, well, they just saw a bear, right? So, you know, if somebody says that they saw something strange and it disappeared, you can't say, oh, well, it just must have, you know, jumped into a ditch. No, if they say it's disappeared in front of their eyes, you've got to believe them.

And I think that's something similar is going on with mindspeak. We've really got to start to try and incorporate the otter aspects of the phenomena or else we're going to keep on trading water like we have for, you know, 50, 60, 70 years. Yeah, and that's what I like about the book. I like the fact that you guys don't try and sell people on this is why this is happening. You guys don't really give answers, but you give a lot of modern day examples of really weird situations people are in. And then you kind of give a historical lesson on these same type of situations that we're seeing today. That's what I really like about the book. Tim, I want to ask you about gifting.

You know, when I had the two brothers on, they, and I often think about gifting in this sense. And for the audience, you know, people will have gifting stumps where they'll leave something for their creature. and then the creature will leave something for them. It'll take it and then leave something for them. You know, in a lot of these situations, like the two brothers, where they had this spirit medium lady come out, a woman and white, there's a lot to this encounter. But anyway, they were trying to trap these creatures with pictures,

and they were doing it through gifting. And she was saying, don't take anything from them. Don't give them anything. You're not feeding a wild animal like leaving apples. or that sort of thing, they see it as a tribute. That's why they get so upset when you stop. It's not that you're feeding a wild animal. It's the fact that you are, it's a form of tribute,

which is kind of a weird way to look at it. And I know you guys go into gifting in the book. Tim, tell us a little bit about what's in the book regarding gifting. Yeah, I mean, I cover that a little bit more in the first book, but I'm happy to talk about it. It's so interesting to me. the thing about gifting is it really overlays really nicely with spirit gifting and you know it's interesting that you said that that psychic said that to the two brothers I had a a Franciscan monk that comes on strange familiar's periodically brother Richard and I asked him about it and he said

don't ever ask for anything and anything you're given is not to keep. He said, you always want to re-gift it. So he was very specific about that. Which, again, if you look back into folklore and he said, too, he was not,

he's very accepting of folklore. And he said, yeah, pay attention to the rules laid out in folklore. And if you look in folklore, there's pretty specific rules where they tell you basically, you know, you don't ask for things. my goodness, if you do ask for something and it's given to you, you better take it because bad stuff's going to happen if you don't.

But in general, you don't ask for things. Stay away from food because if you start leaving food and, I mean, how many Bigfoot examples is this? People start leaving food, then they stop and it goes crazy. Well, that's all over folklore. People will start leaving, you know, beer out for a brownie or something like this. And they'll stop and then the brownie will kill their livestock or, or, you know, mess their house up or whatever the case is. What's a brownie?

Brownie's like a small hairy creature, you know. Oh, I got to. Yeah, it's a fairy creature, but analogous to like a little person. If you read stories of brownies, they sound just like a little foot description, to the extent that they like live in barns and they, you know, do all the similar things. But it's one of a couple different fairy analogs, yeah, just a little short monkey. face fairy. With red glowing eyes.

And hairy body, yeah. Nothing to see here. But yeah, so there's examples all over folk war. People, they stop this gifting and the creatures go crazy. And, you know, again, when I got into this, I heard these Bigfoot gifting horror stories. And people kind of said that, you know, Bigfoot grows accustomed to the calories. Well, if you think of a creature that big and you think of a couple candy bars, people leaving on a tree stump. You're not going to impact this creature's caloric needs with a candy bar or two.

You have to be bringing it wheelbarrows full of food to impact its caloric intake. There's something that big would have to be eating constantly, constantly, especially if it doesn't cook its meat. It would need to be eaten just everything it could all day long. Mountain Gorillas, if they had brains the size of humans, they wouldn't have enough time in the day to feed themselves to power their brain. brains take a lot of calories. So presumably Bigfoot's a big brain creature, needs a lot of calories. So a couple, you know, candy bars on a tree stump, they cannot affect this thing's caleric needs at all.

I just refuse to believe that. But when you look at these folklore cases, boy, they just line up perfectly with these Bigfoot, you know, Bigfoot cases. The other idea, and I'm sure you've heard this, Wes, is the idea of the Bigfoot Garden, where people tell you to plan a separate garden away from your own. Yeah. What is that but an offering area? You've now created a specific area that's an offering to these creatures.

Any natural animal doesn't care about a separate garden. It's going to look at that garden and your garden and say, oh boy, now I have two places to take food from. But yet people report that if you make this garden, that these creatures will somehow respect it and they'll know that it's for them and they won't take food from your garden. Well, that's not a natural animal behavior. that's something else. I mean, in my opinion, it is anyway, that's something vastly intelligent and weird. It's intention-based behavior. Yes.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, intention has a lot to do with it. If, you know, I heard one podcast that they were talking about and they said that, well, it doesn't count if Bigfoot's eating food from your trash can. Well, how does Bigfoot know if your trash can isn't some kind of fancy offering thing? And how does a Bigfoot know that you don't just discard your trash on a tree stump if you're leaving your offerings there? It wouldn't know. There's no way it would know. So it has to do it with intention.

And when you leave out these offerings, it's an intention-based thing. And in general, I've heard a number of stories. And I myself have had some success with it. So I'm a little bit of a hypocrite when I tell people not to do it. But I would suggest not doing it. You know, it's very appealing because it does get results, but it's a funny game. And I don't know that we, you know, we can look at the quote-unquote rules and folklore, but I don't know if we understand all the rules.

And, you know, the other side has their own rules, maybe. Yeah, and I'm really glad you brought that up, Tim. You know, the whole garden situation, I've had a lot of eyewitnesses. They'll say, well, it was turned apart my garden, so I planted a separate garden just for the Sasquatch. and they leave my my garden alone, which is really weird when you think about it. Any normal, let's say some sort of primate, how would a, you know, a natural animal, how would a natural animal know, oh, this is my area and that's your area, and I'll leave it alone. I'm really glad you brought that up.

And the name of the book again for the audience is where the footprints end, high strangeness and the Bigfoot phenomena, Volume 2, evidence. And I want to ask you real quick, Josh, regarding, normally I ask people, what do you think Sasquatch is. But, you know, after reading a portion of this book, and I will finish reading it, I read the first one, loved it. You know, you go into trackcast, trackways, you know, vocals, Sasquatch seeming to disappear, this weird eye glow.

And normally I ask people, what do you think Sasquatch is? But what do you think is actually going on here? because as encounters seem to come in more and more, it seems to be ramping up, in my opinion. And I'm just curious, what do you think is actually going on here? I'm of a couple of different mindsets. I mean, I think that, you know, the Bigfoot as an image is at a level of popularity

that I would sort of compare to like the gray alien during the 90s. You know, you could turn everywhere and see the gray alien and, you know, Roswell and all this stuff. And sometimes I wonder if there isn't something to that forest guardian idea that, you know, as we continue to just wreck the planet and, you know, be reckless that there isn't something about this sort of archetype emerging, you know, accordingly. Because, you know, I can't go outside without seeing at least one bigfoot shirt or big foot bumper sticker or something. And that's down here in Georgia, you know,

I'm saying nothing of where you are. As far as, like, you know, what an archetype is, you know, the source code of the universe, I think is probably one of the simplest ways to put it. you know, that was sort of my attitude after compiling where the footprints in volume two, but I'm working on another project now that's sort of making me rethink that and thinking that maybe Bigfoot, like a lot of the paranormal really is

tied into these transitional states, specifically, you know, the transition from life into death. I think it maybe has something to do with that in a roundabout sort of way. But, you know, to keep things simple, I'll settle on Wildman archetype, which, you know, means that we have this need as human beings to

interface with this half man, half animal thing, and there is some other intelligence. Don't know what it is. Maybe it's demons. Maybe it's fairies. Maybe it's, you know, the Jungian collective unconscious. I don't know. But there is some sort of other intelligence outside of us, or maybe within us, but probably outside of us, that chooses that image to interact with us.

For what reason? I don't know. But that's sort of where I was at the end of these books. Yeah. So when we talk about this stuff, and you'll hear me use words like apparitional and archetype and stuff. And the problem with that is I think

in a lot of people's mind, that's a very ephemeral thing. And they think I'm saying they're not real. And I want to be very, very clear. I've talked to tons of witnesses. I've listened to tons of Sasquatch Chronicles and your witnesses. I believe witnesses.

They are seeing something that's very, very real. It's here. It leaves footprints. It leaves hair. It leaves scat. It can leave blood when it shot. it's it's something that is very real so when I say something that's apparitional you know or or an archetype I don't want people to think I'm saying it's an illusion it's

not it's real it's here I don't know the rules I don't know quite how it works you know like Josh said the wild man archetype is is kind of like our go-to thing it's not really quite an explanation because it's it's sort of like a a term that just kind of hangs in the air it's like it was like saying it's it's it's interdimensional what does that mean? You know, we don't really know. We can't go between dimensions ourselves, so we don't really quite understand what that means. I'll say like wild man archetype, I agree with Josh. It has something to do with this thing. You know, people have reported this throughout history, and we've not caught one. But I don't want people to think I'm saying it's not real in some way. I really believe

it's real. When people see it, it's here, it's physical. I just don't know that it always is in the same way that we are. And I know that's kind of a confusing answer, but that's the best I can do. Yeah, co-signed. So you guys are saying you guys think it's a great ape we haven't caught up with then. Exactly. It's problem solved. You know what? Maybe. I'm still, still got some room for that in my worldview. Yeah, that's what I'd like it to be. I really would like it to be that. Nothing more would make me more happy than if it came out and it was just some primate we haven't caught up with. But then how do you explain all this other weird stuff? And that's why I like the book that you guys go into the book with all the different weird stuff. And I like that like I said before throughout

the show, you guys don't really try and sell anyone on while, you know, if it's red eyes, they're mad. If it's blue eyes, they're, they're, you know, you guys don't do that. You guys just kind of give examples of throughout history of different eye shine and even also some of the different vocals. And it's pretty eye opening. I hope people go out and get the book. Where the Footprints End, high strangeness, and the Bigfoot phenomenon, volume two, evidence. Check out Tim's podcast, Timothy Renner, Strange Familiar, very cool podcasts. I listen every week. Tim, congratulations on hitting over 200 episodes.

I forgot to congratulate you on. I know you're well over 200 now, but it's a huge milestone, and congrats on that, ma'am. Oh, thanks, Wes. I did want to mention one more thing. I didn't get a chance to pop on and talk about my art book. So just real quick, if I can mention, if people like my illustrations, I have a whole book of my black and white pen and ink illustrations. It's called Apparitions, illustrations of the other. You were going to have me on and I got really busy doing this second Where the Footprint's End book. So I didn't get a chance to pop on. But that's not on Amazon. So people, if you want that, you have to get it directly from me. And all my contact information is at strangefamilures.com. So all that goes to me. Cool. And I'll throw up a link. Josh, thanks for coming on, man. It was a pleasure. talking with you again.

Likewise. This is one of the last podcast that I was a listener to that I ever got to talk on earlier this year, so to be back is a real treat for me. So thanks, Wes. Yeah, it was a pleasure having you on, Josh. Thanks again. And definitely check out Tim. His podcast is Strange Familiarers.

Go to Strangefamililers.com. Thanks so much, guys, for taking the time to come on. And that's it for tonight, everyone. Remember, if you've had an encounter, shoot me an email. My email address is Wes at Sasquatch Chronicles.com. If you want to get additional shows, check out Sasquatch Chronicles.com

and become a member. Until next time, everyone.