Sasquatch Chronicles - SC EP:845 Correlations Or Coincidences Part Two

Episode Date: April 15, 2022

Rick returns for part two as we deep dive into Sasquatch, UFO's and the Paranormal. Timothy Renner from Strange Familiars Podcast joins the discussion. Are there correlations or coincidences? Rick writes "I'm a regular listener to your podcast and find it very informative. On one of your recent shows, I believe you mentioned getting a Ufologist, Paranormal Researcher, and Cryptid Investigator together in order to compare notes on the potential similarities/ connections within all three fields. During my tenure with MUFON, I investigated many sightings to include the abduction phenomenon. I found that many of those cases had elements of the paranormal associated with them, which intrigued me. I then began investigating the paranormal with the Center for Paranormal Research and Investigation (CPRI), also in Virginia. I've investigated many cases. Some involved negative entities or the "demonic". One of these cases was featured on an episode of "A Haunting" entitled "Mark of Evil". That was a rather serious/ horrific case that changed my life dramatically. I'm still with that organization. However, my wife and I also started the Virginia chapter of the North American Dogman Project (NADP). We've been investigating Dogman/ cryptid cases for the past five years. During my research, I've seen some cases that have "crossover elements" to them."

July, 1924, two miles east of Mount St. Helens in Washington State, five miners' lives were changed forever. Fred Beck and his associates find tracks and begin arguing. How do you know you didn't actually see it? Well, it's been in the track. It's about 18 inches long. The five miners were stalked and harassed by an unknown creature when traveling from their mind to their cat until one day they came face to face with the creature. One of the miners raised his rifle, took aim, and fired. It was a decision he would later come to regret. Few stories become legendary.

This is one of them. In an act of revenge, the creatures returned that night as the miners slept. The creatures threw rocks and tried to get into the cabin. They came at the men from every angle, including the roof. The creatures were everywhere. The miners fought back, firing anywhere and everywhere. You guys know the ape canyon story. But the portion we tell in the Bigfoot community is only half the story. The full story is much stranger than you would imagine.

It looked like somebody was bent over and had their head in the window of the deer blind. It either heard me or smelled me, and he pulled his head out of the tent and stood straight up. That shocked me. They don't make people that big. The way it moved, almost as if it was gliding across the beach. I've never seen anything move. like that in my life. They were screaming at each other in gibberish.

It sounded like a language, and they were chuntering away back and forwards, back and forwards, back and forwards, back and forwards. I know what a bear looks like, and there is no way on this planet, but what I saw were bears. What are you reporting? Jesus, get somebody out here. What's going on now, sir? That son of a bitch is about six foot nine, I don't know. Do you see him now, sir? Yes.

This is Susie from Southern California. You are listening to my favorite show, Sasquatch Chronicles. Welcome to the show, everyone. Thanks for being here tonight. Got a great show plan for you. You know, last week I had Rick Artestine on the show, and Rick is a retired detective. He spent most of his life in law enforcement,

and he's the former director of Mufon out there in Virginia. But Rick really started looking into, some of these UFO cases. And what he found is there's a lot of early bizarre things that happen in these UFO cases, which kind of led him to the paranormal world, which kind of led him to the cryptid world. And so Rick will be coming back on tonight. I'm also going to be having Timothy Renner on from Strange Familiar's. Awesome podcast.

If you get a chance, go check it out. Whatever podcast player you're listening to for Sasquatch Chronicles, definitely check out Tim a strange, familiars podcast. And I'm excited to have these guys on tonight. You know, both of them are a wealth of knowledge, way more than I am. So it's going to be, hopefully it'll be a cool conversation tonight. If you've had an encounter and you'd like to be on the show,

shoot me an email. My email address is Wes at Sasquatch Chronicles.com. And if you get a chance, check out Sasquatch Chronicles.com, you can become a member and get additional shows. Let's jump into it tonight. Rick, welcome to the show. Tim, welcome to the show. And it's my understanding, Tim, that you have a new book out.

And most of your books, I would say all of your books, actually, I really enjoy reading. And I'm really not a big reader. If you would, is it available now? And what's the name of the book? Yeah, it's available now. It's called The Witch Cloud. And it's about two haunted bridges in Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. But it's not just about ghosts.

It gets into all kinds of weird stuff. there's a whole lot happening on these two bridges. It's available on Amazon or you can get it directly from me at strange familiars.com. Wherever you get books, it should be available. Yeah, I can't wait to check it out. I really enjoyed your last book, Where the Footprints Ends, Volume 1 and 2, that you wrote with Josh Cutchins. You guys do a really good job, point together this information. So I can't wait to check it out.

Can't wait to have you back. And this question is kind of for both of you. because Rick, I know that you know this story really well, and Tim knows this story really well. But in the Bigfoot world, you know, we talk about Ape Canyon. These miners go up there. They run into this creature that is harassing them. One of the miners takes a shot. The creature falls off the cliff that night, a bunch of them return and attack the cabin.

Everyone, for the most part, if you're into Bigfoot, you know that story. Some out there may not. But, and I live in this area. So, I mean, ape canyon is really there. There's the ape caves. There's a long history of it here in the Pacific Northwest. And that's the story you get from, you know, researchers and people in the Bigfoot world. But there's a lot of other details they leave out.

The story is much stranger than most people realize. Tim, if you would kind of start, what are portions of this story that people don't know? Yeah, it's really interesting. I never heard it. I'd heard the ape Canyon story and I don't know how many Bigfoot podcasts and, you know, every book on Bigfoot that's sort of a general survey has the story. But it seems to just be, you know, some guys had some problems with Bigfoot and they shot one and then they came back and attacked the cabin that night. But what happened was before that, and this is according to Fred Beck, who with his son, you know, wrote down the account. There's a whole lot of other weird stuff going on.

And there was a spirit of a, they called it either like a very tall or a giant Indian. I can't remember their exact phrasing. But that told them to follow an arrow through the sky. Now, they weren't real clear on what they meant by arrow. So I'm thinking, like, is this like some kind of light they're following through the sky or an actual arrow or something? But that would lead them, you know, to this mine. On the way they run into this other spirit. And again, they don't describe her too well, but they were very fond of this spirit.

They called her Vanderwhite. And they ended up naming the mine after her, their gold mine that they found. So they followed this arrow along the way they meet this Vanderwhite. They find this mine, which was producing gold. I think Fred Beck said it was, at the time they left, after the attack, it was still producing gold. He kind of said, like, if you can get up there and find it, that, you know, that mine yields gold still for you. But they were done after, after that attack. But before they ever saw creatures, they were hearing weird sounds like machinery coming from the ground. They were hearing, you know,

I think other, like weird voices and stuff that they, from, you know, unknown languages and so forth, the kind of pretty standard poltergeist stuff. Then they started seeing creatures. And they found two, it was either two or three footprints. They said it in the middle of a sandbar. It was an acre square, like square acre sandbar, they said. And the one guy said it looked like whatever had been there had just been picked up and dropped down and picked up again. So it was just three Sasquatch footprints. One, two, three, that's it.

They didn't come from anywhere. They didn't go from anywhere. Three footprints in the middle of the sandbar. So they had a number of really, really weird things happening. Fred Beck had an apport, which means an item just appeared out of the air. It was a pencil. He said he needed a pencil one day, and a pencil appeared that he knew was in his house. So they were having very, very strange activity and all kinds of stuff that's usually associated with poltergeist stuff before they ever saw the creature.

And of course, then the story goes, they see one and they shoot one. They have a very harrowing night where these things attack the cabin. I found an article when I was writing where the footprints sound. Actually, I think Josh found it. but he called my attention to it. That talks about it. And I've never seen this information in any other article, but it was an article about the attack on the cabin that night.

And they said when they went out in the morning to look around, you know, after all the chaos of the night, there were footprints, but they were all left footprints. It was no right feet outside the cabin. So very, very strange. Yeah. And if you read Fred Beck in his writings, What he wrote in there, basically he was saying they're not from here.

They're very much supernatural. And he doesn't really articulate that or define that for the reader. But what you kind of get from his impression is that these weren't apes. I mean, this wasn't something natural these guys ran into. I mean, fighting off their creatures is what I'm talking about. Something about it was very off. And Fred kind of talks about that in his writings. And I know the miners called her Vanderwhite.

Did they ever describe her as a woman in white? Well, her name was Vanderwhite. You know, I made the connection to when I wrote the woman in white chapter and where the footprints sent to her because of the name. But I don't think they ever described her. I could be wrong about that. Yeah, I think you're right, Tim. I don't know that they really described her. Let me ask you, Rick.

I mean, you know the story of the ape canyon attack and all the weird stuff that goes on around it. I mean, if you didn't have all the weird stuff, it's this cool encounter of these apes attacking these miners, but there's a little more to the story than that. What are your thoughts? They did have some weird activity prior to seeing these creatures. I think orbs, they started seeing orbs. I think I did hear that it was a Native American who gave them some instructions. There was a, I think I heard a story about a woman in white that they would follow, and then she would disappear or something to that effect. I'm trying to remember where I heard that from. It's been some time ago, but I do know that supposedly they did have

some type of paranormal or poltergeist type activity around the mine work area and around their shack and so forth. Now, when he's... when Tim talks about these airports and these left footprints, that is very common in religious demonology. The left footprint is an indication of the demonic. Anything on left would be indication of the demonic. Hearing something in the left ear, murmuring or any type of left footprint is indicative of the demonic. Also, the airports are very indicative of the demonic as well because they supposedly have the ability to airport physical objects from one location to another.

For example, somebody might need money if they're connected with the demonic in some way, shape, or form, all of a sudden money will appear in their wallets. Or they'll be walking down the street, and if they have a connection with the demonic, they'll say, well, you know, I need a hundred bucks real quick. And all of a sudden, they'll look at the road and they'll see a roll of money wrapped in a rubber band, they'd pick it up and find the money. That's very common. So it's, it's kind of strange that, you know, this type of thing happened with them and these Bigfoot type creatures. It just makes me wonder if there's some type of connection there, or I don't know if there might, there may

not be a connection at all, maybe some, you know, something separate and distinct from the Bigfoot phenomena, but it just causes me to wonder. Yeah, it really does. And, you know, I want to run one thing past you guys because you guys know more about the paranormal world than I do. And I'm always under the assumption that, you know, these things have to be invited in. It's kind of the same reason why you don't find a demon in everyone's home because it's almost like I think there's a set of rules they have to play by. And it's something you have to invite in. And it makes me wonder, prior to these guys having this bizarre experience and then the

attack that everyone knows about, what the hell were they doing? Prior to that, because it's so bizarre, you know, a lot, there's a lot of miners out there, and people don't just run into spirits that tell them where there's gold. It's like they were chosen or something, but it really makes me stop and go, what were these guys doing prior to this? One thing that somewhat recently I've started asking whenever I go out on investigations, and I call it buried treasure theory, but it's not always like, you know, a chest of gold in the ground. I ask people, you know, where's the story of, you know, what's buried around here? That's interesting. What's underground here? And you'd be surprised how often you get a story of like, oh, well, there's this, there's supposed to be a silver mine down the road that, you know, is lost and nobody knows where it is or there's a legend of buried gold here.

So sometimes it's very literal treasure. Other times it's, well, there's this, there's this legend of these caves underground. and that's where these creatures are supposed to be. So it's the idea of something of value or something being underground. And I mean, you know this, West, the number of cases that come up next to old mines and old caves and stuff is really, really high. I found quarries too. Next to quarries, I've gotten an incredible amount of activity. I can't tell you what it is.

I just tell you, like, that's one of the things I ask witnesses, and I'm getting a lot of hits on that. when I say, you know, where have people been digging in the ground? Oh, you know, right down the road or, you know, right over here. Here's an old mine. Here's a closed mine, et cetera, et cetera. So the fact that they were literally, you know, digging into a mine makes me wonder if that doesn't play some kind of factor to it. I don't know if it relates to the situation. It was just a happenstance type of situation. But we were investigating a, when I was with Bufon, we were investigating a UFO case near Smith Mountain. Lake Virginia. And the clients there, husband, wife, I think had a couple kids. They, you know, they were porting, you know, pultergeist activity along with the triangular shape UFOs. There was also a crop circle in the field. It was a hodgepodge of a different types of activity. And we went into the woodline, we went into the woodland area because they kept hearing screams back there.

There was a witness, a couple of miles down the road that witnessed a Bigfoot type of creature and different things. There were orbs floating through this wooded area adjacent to their property or on their property. So we went back there and just to look around and we found a whole lot of courts in the ground.

I mean, it was lying on top of the ground. It wasn't everywhere, but there's certain areas that had a great deal of courts lying on top of the ground or half buried in the ground itself. We were wondering if that courts contributed to the light phenomenon in the woods that they were witnessing, you know, orb type activity.

So, you know, that's, I don't know if that has anything to do with it, but we just thought it was somewhat odd. Can I ask if it was, is this clear crystal quartz or is it like quartzite, the white quartz? It's a, it was kind of a white quartzite type of substance. Some of it was clear, if I can remember correctly. I think I sent a photograph to Wes. with an image of something on there, I don't want to, you know,

tell you what I think it is. But we were looking at the ground at the time that this thing appeared in the photo. And did you ever get that photo, Wes? Yeah, I'm sure I have it. I just moved. And so I've been setting up this studio, gosh, probably almost a month now. If I was in a better position, I'd hire someone to do it for me. But to answer your question, I'm sure I have it.

haven't seen it yet, though. Okay. But, yeah, we were looking at some of this, the substance in the ground itself at the time that that particular photograph was taken. And there's something in the photograph, and I'm not going to, you know, reference it, you know, tell you what I think it was or anything like that. I just want you to have an objective opinion when you look at it. But, yeah, that's, it was a white type of quartz and some of it was clear, but most of it was

white. Yeah, I mean, I've gotten, well, I've, I've. notice the same thing. Again, I can't, like you said, I don't know if it's a fact or not, but I have recognized that there's a couple areas that we go to that are highly active for one of them, in particular for strange lights. We've gotten other things around there, too, things in the woods and weird vocals, some language we can't understand. We've recorded there and so forth. But most often we get weird lights there and a lot of the court site and the ground there. Again, I don't, you know, you said, I don't know if it's, you know, that's the cause of anything, but I definitely

recognize it. There's a, there's a lot of it there. Yeah, it's, it was definitely there. And, you know, a lot of people could say, well, the lights could be caused by, um, ball lightning and that type of thing, but they're, all lightning, you know, ball lightning appears in certain circumstances. It has to be more in a storm. And it doesn't last very long. A lot of these orp sightings last, sometimes, you know, minutes. And there's also another thing that we looked into, we couldn't establish, was what they call the electropesio effect, which is the, you've got certain areas of the country that have fault lines. I think Virginia is one of them. I think one might run through that particular area.

And when there's a certain amount, when there's a shift in the fault line, it creates pressure. And it could cause these, these, this light phenomena or sparking to occur. And people could maybe misunderstood, misunderstand that or, you know, think it's some type of a paranormal activity or UFO activity because it's kind of like a ball lightning type of phenomena. But we couldn't really establish that either because most of the orbs that they would see would move intelligently. They would see them in their home going up and down the hallway. And this was during times of, you know, that there wasn't any storm.

They couldn't account for why that would happen. Also, they would smell an ozone type of smell. Whenever a quote-unquote entity would be around, Sometimes they see these large black things moving around the house and they smell an ozone type of odor associated with it. So that would denote some type of electrical activity, localized electrical, maybe an electrical magnetic. I don't know. But it was a really strange area. And that particular thing, that particular case had everything.

I mean, cryptids, it had paranormal, it had UFO. and that was one of the major cases that got me involved in looking into the paranormal and the encrypted fields was that particular case there. It had everything. Yeah, and I'm glad that you brought up the ball of lightning, Rick, because that is a natural thing that occurs. It's very, very rare, but it does occur, and that would explain a very, very small portion of the sightings just because the ball of lightning so rare. these other lights people are talking about, and I'm mainly talking to the audience because I know you know this, but, you know, they'll describe it as being intelligently controlled. They'll describe it as, and I've seen the lights, and I will tell you that they don't just randomly float around, you know, like something natural. There's something very odd about these balls of light, and I know they go out through history, you know, in World War II they called them food fighters, but even a recent,

show I had, I believe it was a member's only show. I had James, who's the son, and Jake, who's the father of this property out there in Maine. And not only nighttime, but during the day, you'll see these lights pop up. And it's probably some of the best daytime footage I've ever seen. And there's different colors that pop up. There's different, it just looks weird when you see it. And I'll send you the video if you want to watch it, Rick. But Tim, I'm curious. What is your opinion? What's going on with these lights? I mean, I know when Sasquatch is around, these lights sure seem to pop up.

Whether it's related or not, I don't know. But what are your thoughts as far as what the lights are? Yeah, well, the light phenomenon, you know, my friend Soraya, who does Where to the Road Go podcast, he has this wonderful saying. He says, you know, in the paranormal, if you see a weird light in a house, it's a ghost. If you see it in the woods, it's Bigfoot. But if you see it in the sky, it's a UFO. But there's weird lights throughout. I absolutely agree with that.

No matter where you go on the paranormal or whatever you want to call this stuff, you're going to find weird light phenomenon with it. I agree that it seems very intelligent. I had a friend of mine who's very, very interested in nature. He can tell you which wild plans to eat and so forth. a very resourceful guy on the trail. I love hiking with him because I always say you don't need to bring a lunch when you go out hiking with him because he'll find you 10 things to eat on the way.

And he was very doubtful. I was telling him about this place, the same place I was talking about where we see lights regularly. We see them regularly and they're not fireflies. We see him in February. We see him in the summer. We see him all times a year. And he said, he was very doubtful and very suspicious and said,

take me there and I'm going to tell you what they are. I said, fine. I'm, I'm fearless. I'll take you there. And if you can explain it, good, because I can't, yeah, I've been trying to explain this for years and have, you know, somebody can explain it. I'm open to it. So what we did is we, we hiked up this mountain during the day. And there was a, there's a certain place where we see these lights all the time. And usually we're, we kind of park outside the woods and kind of look into the woods and watch them. But this time, we decided, because he, you know, he was there and he, you know, he really wanted to, you know, you know, he really wanted to, you know, you know, you know, get to the bottom of it. So we hiked up this mountain during the day and just sat there until it got dark. When it got dark, he started saying, he's like, I don't know. I think I see him. And I told him, don't do that to yourself. You'll know when you see him.

Like don't make it up in your head. There will be no question when you see him. And eventually, he started seeing him. We all started seeing him. And he's blown away. He's like, I don't know what those are. I don't know what those are. And by the end of the night, they,

had, usually when we see them, they'd stay kind of back in the woods. This night we were in amongst them and they were coming up, almost like they were checking us out. They were coming right up to us. And my buddy was on his knees at one point, trying to catch one out of the air. He was reaching for

it. It was that close to us. It seemed like they were coming to us to check them out. And these were about golf ball sized, mostly white, but they could be kind of bluish. And we saw several of them that night. And he He left the place a believer.

He said, I don't know what those are. But there are definitely weird lights there. Rick, can I ask you, being from the UFO world, I'm sure that these lights get reported all the time. What do people in the UFO world think the lights are? It does. There are two facets to these sightings, particularly at night. You've got people that witness what they describe as a structured crows. craft. That could be like a triangular craft and has structure and detail, you know,

underneath of it that can visibly see. And then you've got what's been termed nocturnal lights, which could be orb activity or, you know, strange lights appear, disappear, shoot off at tremendous speed, stop on a dime. You know, that's, we don't, I'm not so sure that's a structured craft. It might be something else. However, you know, a lot of radar installations do report, a radar signature with regard to these lights, but sometimes they don't. So I wonder if, you know, there are two different things. I know that, I mean, I think I told you about an incident we had here to Virginia when I was with the paranormal group. We investigated at a lady's farm near Bedford, Virginia.

And she had a poltergeist activity, apparitions, you know, some people talking. She couldn't, you know, determine where they were at, where they were coming from, and so forth. We went there and investigated, and we asked her a series of questions, and we asked her when did the activity start. And she says, it's been there ever since she's been looking at that particular location. Back in 1980, she woke up one night and saw three orbs, three balls of light at the foot of her bed, side by side, on a level plane. And they were different colors. I think she said red, orange, and white. and she got out of bed and these three orbs moved in single file in unison down her hallway

and each one made a 90 degree turn into a room for intelligent. It looked like they were intelligently controlled or they had an intelligence in them. And she went to the room and turned the light on and her window was open, but the screen was in. And she just decided to go back to bed because it disappeared. next morning she got up and she looked at the window screen and she found two or three rather discolored circular formations in the screen itself. So she thought that was rather interesting. So she took the screen out and we asked her, what did you do with the screen? She says, well, that was in 1980.

I still have it. And we're like, really? She said, yes, it's out in my barn, rolled up. So we had her retrieve the screen and opened it up and there were three discolored. circular, I'd say about the size, maybe a little bit larger than a softball, yeah, a little bit larger. And we had a person in our group who was a radio chemist, and he works for a government installation in Virginia along the coast somewhere. And he said, well, let me take it. Let me do some testing. Let me analyze these things and see what I can find out. So she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she, she,

was, you know, she was agreeable. He took the screen with me. And about a month later, he came back and he had had a report. He actually, you know, filled out a report on this. And we have it here somewhere. And I was looking for it. It's been maybe 15 years ago now. But in the report, he said that he swabbed the screen, the affected areas and the non-affected areas. And, you know, I think he determined that the screen was a some type of fiber. I forgot what he said it was, even went into the makeup screen itself.

And he did the swabbing of the inner circles and the outer portions as a control sample. And she did some, he cut some swathes and did some testing. I forgot what the instrumentation he used was. And it turned out that the circular areas in the screen itself,

not the unaffected areas, but the circular areas, this colored areas in the screen itself, was so highly irradiated. that by federal law, he couldn't remove it from the facility he had it in. And he said that it changed, I forgot, cobalt something or another, it changed the screen into a cobalt, forgot what it was. I don't want to misquote him.

But he says, in order for the screen to have been that irradiated, it would have had to been next to something equivalent to a nuclear reactor. And we started thinking, well, you know, if that was so irradiated, you know, we were kind of worried because, you know, we were, close to it and so forth. Sure. Yeah. And we, you know, but the, we never got sick or anything, but the, the, the witness, the

client, she, we asked her later, you know, some questions. We didn't tell her what we'd found. But we asked her if she had suffered any ill effects after that particular sighting or that event. And she said, yeah, I had like a flu or cold, bad cold or whatever for a while, you know, I was really sick. And it was okay, you know, and, you know, just, you know, just to get a doctor? Well, no.

I didn't see anybody for that. You know, I just let it go. And I said, okay. And then she called us back, I believe, after she had hip replacement surgery. And she remembered what we said before. And the doctor who did the hip replacement surgery asked her if she had had any type of radiation therapy. And she said, no, I've never had any radiation therapy. He said, well, it's kind of odd because when I did, when I replaced your hip, the bone

in your hip had small porous looked like it was small porous small and porous sections in the bone he said that's indicative of radiation therapy or a great deal of radiation therapy and she says

no no I haven't had anything like yet so it was puzzling to him but at this point it wasn't quite as puzzling to us if that's if those three objects were that irradiated and she was in close proximity to it stands to reason that she, and her being sick right afterwards,

that stands to reason that she may have had radiation poisoning as a result of those three orbs. Do you think that's why sometimes people get, like, vision problems and eye burning after encounters? Yeah, perhaps that's the first time I've heard anything like that, especially in investigating UFO cases. I've never heard of anything that's severe. Of course, there are, you know, in the history,

there are people that have, you know, had radiation burns and so forth from close contact with craft and so forth. But I've never had anything quite like this. Yeah, it's strange. You know, I had Damien Knott on the show, and he's this Aussie. He films these orbs. I mean, he films, he has hours and hours and hours of these balls of light that he's filmed.

And people have gone out with them to kind of prove that he's, it's all nonsense. this guy's faking it. And then those people will come back with more video footage of what they captured. And one time he got too close to an orb, I interviewed him at one time. And then about a year and a half later, I interviewed him again. And we were doing it over Skype. And I guess I can say this because Damien's doing better now. But when him and I were talking over Skype the second time, I was like, this guy's dying of cancer. I've seen this before. I know the look. I've had family die of cancer. And this guy's got about 90 days or less before he's gone. And it broke my heart

because he's such a nice guy. You don't want to, you know, I don't wish anything bad on this guy. And he's better now. But he told me the whole story. Basically, he got too close to this orb. And I can't remember if it projected something at him or if it was just being too close. I'd have to go back and listen to the show. If Damien's listening, forgive me. But he ended up in the hospital. And what they told him was it's radiation poisoning. Basically, he was going to die. His dog died of radiation poisoning because he had his dog with him at the time of running into this ball of light. And they kind of told him the same thing, Rick.

He's in the hospital. And they're like, hey, listen, do you work at a nuclear power plant? He's like, no, why? And they're like, the amount of radiation coming out of your body would be something equivalent, even more so than working in a nuclear power plant. They've never seen radiation levels this high. And it makes me wonder, I mean, do people, you guys would know this more than I do, but when people run into like apparitions or ghost, do they ever report a sickness afterwards? Not like with radiation sickness.

You know, I've heard people who've had, you know, like cold symptoms or upset stomachs and stuff. And that might just be coincidence, but yeah, but not like this like severe kind of radiation stuff. that's really, really weird. Never had anything where someone who's a close proximity to an apparition or some of this poltergrass activity, you know, experience anything like that either. So that's kind of new to me. Yeah, and, you know, you were talking about UFOs,

and I could think of a few accounts, Rick, where people were too close to UFOs and they did get a weird sickness. But to both of your points, I don't know that I've ever heard anyone say, you know, an apparition appeared in front of me and then I was really ill afterwards. Can I ask you guys, you know, when I think about things that are spiritual and when I think about things that are physical, and by the way, I got a lot of crap on the last show when I questioned whether God exists or not, and the point I was trying to make, I guess just so I'll clarify it for everyone, I'm not going to

take back what I said, but I think being human is to be flawed. And I think if you, you've experienced heartache throughout your life or death of loved ones or if you've ever hit rock bottom, if you've never questioned if God is real or not, you've probably never hit rock bottom. And I think just to be human, we do that. But you know, when I think of God, for example, I don't think of something physical. I think of something more spiritual. And maybe I shouldn't separate the two. And, you know, with regard to these lights, they seem to be, um, you, you know, You know, either it's something natural, kind of like what Rick brought up with the balls of light, or it's something spiritual. I'm sure there's more options.

I just can't think of any at the moment. But it's something more spiritual. But here it is affecting people, making people sick. There is a physical effect to it. What are your guys' thoughts as far as what are these balls of light? I mean, what's your guys' honest opinion? Well, I said, you know, bottom line is, you know, I don't know and nobody else does. I think anybody who claims they do needs to show their evidence.

But my gut is that they've, you know, because I'm a big folklore guy, I read, you know, comparative folklore from anywhere I can find it, really. All these different cultures talk about these lights. And most of them say the same things. Most of them will say, like, don't follow them. Don't mess with them. You know, they're not to be not to be messed with. I guess I'm a little more on the woo side of Bigfoot.

A lot of times people say, like, well, how can you compare it to a ghost because it leaves footprints? And indeed, it does leave footprints. But how do they hunt ghosts back in the 50s? They would put talcum powder out and wait for footprints. So it's very much the same kind of thing. I think it's in a way it's it's all natural and in a sense. It's like it's always been with us. It's always been there.

But we need to expand our idea of what we consider natural and what we consider supernatural. I have a brother Richard is a monk who comes on my show. He's an Iris Capuchin monk. And he said to me that there's a whole ecosystem out there of entities, of these spirits. And they range from bad to good. where in between. The problem being is, you know, when people mess with them, you don't know what you're going to get. And, and people think they can control them and they can't and so forth. But so what I think is, you know, just my gut and, you know, I kind of lean on his advice because he's giving me great

advice as regards to this stuff is that we're dealing with a spectrum of things that could range from, you know, good stuff to very, very bad stuff and everywhere in between. So I think there's a spiritual nature to this stuff. But, you know, again, it's how you're going to define that versus natural, et cetera. You know, it could just be a part of the natural world that we don't quite understand yet as well. Yeah, that's a good point, Tim. Let me ask you, Rick. I know you've dealt with the demonic and really in-depth with poltergeist and you've held people in those situations.

Was there ever a moment where you thought this isn't possible? This is something more spiritual, but it became very physical. I used to be of the opinion that spirits, these things that are unseen can't hurt you. and I had a case where I investigated back in between 2009 and 2011. I think I spoke about it in your last interview. I had a lady that was being attacked by something unseen, and it was leaving three scratches, three linear scratches side by side on her body on each attack.

Sometimes it would punch her, be bruising on her eye, would push her around, push her down, so forth. choker. And then, you know, I started to look at that and I'm like, well, you know, apparently, you know, what you can't see can hurt you. And I was actually able, after about two years, I was able to get it to capture on video, her getting attacked. And some light of life phenomena associated with the attack, one attack in particular, and sounds. And, you know, I was of opinion. Then, yeah, these things can affect you. They can't become physical. There have been instances where, you know, it'd be raining outside and the woman's having a lot of activity, paranormal type activity in her house.

She heard the door open and closed and go into the kitchen, and she sees some wet bare footprints go across the floor and stop. So these things, you know, whether they're spiritual or not, they can leave physical traces as well as footprints. If you get back into the biblical aspect of things, angels are supposed to be purely spiritual beings. but people in biblical time supposedly, you know, I had dinner with them. They would eat with them and, you know, interact with them in a physical way. It depends on what God allows. But yeah, it's just because it's spiritual doesn't necessarily mean it can't become physical when it needs to be, when it needs to or when it can. It's one of the most difficult things for me to conceptualize the idea that something can be so ephemeral like that.

It can be here when it wants. to be, I guess, or at certain times, assuming it has control over it and not here at other times. I think this is something that people stumble over a lot, and I can see why. Especially if you're trying to prove this stuff in some kind of scientific way, that's something very difficult to wrestle with mentally, the idea that something would be here sometimes and not here other times. I've talked to Ed Warren of the Warren's, Ed Lorraine Warren, famous demonologist. And I've been to his lectures, and he says that I think he better described it as he was investigating a case. The kids in the residence would be pulled from the bed, grabbed and pulled out of the bed.

And I think he described the method by which they used, they were able to do this. He says, the being or the entity can actually solidify the atmosphere around. the object that they're concentrating on, solidified to the point where it can actually manipulate the physical. And of course, that goes into the preternatural abilities that

these negative entities, or if you want to call them demonic, half. But he says they are able to somehow another solidify the atmosphere or the air molecules around an object to the point where it can, you know, grab or manipulate physical items.

Yeah, you know, Dr. Bener-Noggle, he used to tell me, we have great trace evidence that Sasquatch exists. We don't have evidence. We have great trace evidence. And I always thought that was a weird comment for him to make. And now I'm starting to really understand what he was talking about because he's not wrong. We do have great trace evidence. And I understand, you know, people who think they're chasing an ape. You know, some non-human primate we haven't caught up with. It must be physical. It's eating. It's pooping. It's leaving footprints, but it gets really weird at that point because no one can seem to catch up with these things. And you can only accept so many BS answers from researchers, investigators, and quote-unquote experts that it's like, well, you know, they're really good hiding and they've just been around for a long time.

And if this was your backyard or your living room, you would know what's going on. It's like, well, I can accept a little bit of that, but you're getting a little off. because it's bizarre to me. You know, humans are pack animals. We will hunt anything to the end of the planet and either put it in a zoo or kill it off. But with Sasquatch, what's weird is they seem to appear and people encounter them. Sometimes nothing weird happens beyond seeing the creature, which is weird enough. But I'm talking about like paranormal stuff.

And then in other situations, there will be paranormal stuff that goes on. So it's like it's physical, but you can't really explain it because there's all this weird paranormal stuff going on. But it's not necessarily paranormal because there is physical evidence of it still, you know, of appearing of it being there. You know, there is trace evidence of it being there. And it's just bizarre to me. I understand why people, you know, there's this division of, is it a non-human primate? a lot of the weird stuff most investigators won't even bother to look at. And I just think that's a wrong approach, but it doesn't mean I'm doing things right.

I just like with Ape Canyon, it's nice to get the whole story of what was going on. And again, with these encounters, they're physical, but they're not really. They're spiritual, but not really. It's just strange. I've said that if they are natural creatures, they are gifted with so many evolutionary advantages. as they might as well be supernatural because no other creature has that many evolutionary advantages. If we're talking about some kind of natural animal,

they might as well be supernatural because they're just so gifted with all their abilities and all these things they have whether you want to explain away with Infrasound, which I really don't think that explains this woo stuff that Infrasound seems to be the answer for everything from feeling scared to you know, weird lights.

Everything, you know, it's always Improsound, Infrasound, InfraSound. I don't think Infrasound explains all that stuff, but let's say they, it does. So they've got infrasound. They've got, you know, the ability to hide better than any other creature. They've got super speed,

you know, you name it. They have so many evolutionary advantages that they might as well be supernatural at that point. Yeah, it feels that way. You know, one of the, we'll call it special abilities that comes up many times in many, many encounters. There's a difference between eyeshine.

Everyone knows what earshine is, like a deer running across the road, it catches your lights, and kind of light up their eyes. But in a lot of these encounters, people talk about their eyes glowing and not eyes shine. And I've talked to many experienced hunters, people with way more experience than I have.

And I'll ask them, you know, was it eyeshine? Is that what you see? saw and they're very adamant. They'll say, no, those eyes were glowing. And I've heard, you know, everything from red to blue to orange, you know, green. And some people speculate. They'll go, well, you know, when their eyes are red, they're mad. And when they're blue, they're happy. And it's like, well, they don't, no one knows that. That's just speculating it as far as the color goes. Cliff Brockman, he has a podcast, him and Bobo, uh,

called Bigfoot and Beyond. And they were talking about this. And Bobo's a little bit more open to some of the weird stuff than Cliff is. But Cliff will definitely hear you out. I mean, he's not, him and I've had many conversations about this. And he kind of made a point, you know, trying to explain from a physical standpoint, these eyes glowing. And what Cliff was saying is, you know, if your eyes glow, you'd be blind. You wouldn't be able to see, you know, through the light. And he's not wrong when he says that. He's, he's 100% right. If your eyes were to glow, light, you would not be able to see it all. And I'm just curious, Rick, you know, when you looked into some of these more paranormal encounters or UFO encounters, did you ever

get a witness that said they saw glowing eyes? Yeah, the, um, think on the paranormal end, I've talked with people who saw entities where their eyes glowed, red, especially in negative entity-to-type cases. As far as Bigfoot, I don't have a lot of experience with that. The only thing I know is the literature that I've read that there have been instances where people have seen these things, their eyes glowing. And I really can't add anything to that because I really don't know. but in the paranormal field, specifically the demonic field, yeah, there's, I mean, multitude of cases where they see these entities with glowing red eyes. Some of them, actually, they say that the shape of the entity will, you know, look a lot like a big foot.

The thing I can tell you about glowing eyes is that there's no animal on earth that has glowing eyes. You can't find one. if you want to talk about tapidum lucidum, the thing that causes eyes shine at night if you're driving down the street and you see a deer and the eyes reflect in your car headlights, that's the tapidum lucidum. It allows him to gather light so they can see better at night.

And that's what's reflecting back. No high order primates have that. So once again, if Bigfoot has that, if we're just seeing eyes shine, if we're seeing a reflection off his eyes, its eyes, then it is, is unique among high-order primates.

If we're talking about, you know, it would have to be a primate. It have to be a high-order primate, probably in the ape family. We're apes. You know, it probably have to be a great ape. That would make it, once again, a unique thing amongst great apes that it would have a tapetum of the cedum. It would be the only one. So again, we have another evolutionary advantage that nothing else has.

But I glow, if we're talking about things with glowing eyes, you can't find an animal. I don't think with that has biolumptial. luminescent eyes. There might be a weird fish, you know, in the deep sea or something, but mammals definitely not. But what you can find is if you go back through folklore throughout history, you look up goblins, demons, demons, vampires, werewolves, they all have glowing eyes. So, you know, our ancestors, you know, folklore is not just fiction. I think a lot of people say that folklore is fiction is not. Was our ancestors writing about this stuff? And it got changed and turned into, you know, sometimes a little childish stories over time.

But it really was our ancestors writing about these same things. I feel it was anyway. And when they talk about these, you know, these fairies and goblins, et cetera, et cetera, you know, very often you will get, you know, eyes of fire, eyes like coals, glowing eyes, et cetera, et cetera. Jim, can I ask your question? Yeah. What is your opinion? I think that the Bigfoot, you know, the Sasquatch phenomenon as a whole,

I think we might be dealing with different species. I don't think they're all one type. Your opinion on that? Well, so I leave a little window open for maybe there being a natural creature, maybe in the northwest. But being where I am in Pennsylvania, there's not a breeding population here. I just can't see it. It's just they would leave a mark. So it's really hard for me to think of there being a breeding population, these things, which leads me to believe there's something else, something other.

Or if there is a breeding population, again, they don't work like other animals. I won't close the door completely on them being something natural, but if they are, they're just something that's unlike anything else we know of. So from the different taxonomies that people would describe, I mean, they're very different. And Wes has remarked on this before. you get everything from Patty to, you know, things that's supposedly looked like giant chimpanzees to cavemen and so forth. So they're very, very different looking across these reports. So, you know, is it the same thing manifesting in different ways? Is it, are there multiple species?

I don't know my, you know, again, my gut is like, it's one thing, maybe one type, I know, I know I'm sounding like very wish. watch you here, but I just, I'm very careful about trying to lay down an explanation because I really don't know I'm fascinated by it. And of course, I love it. But I think there are different types. Let's just say that. Now, whether they're different species or just different manifestations of these things, I don't know. But yeah, I would say there's definitely different types. And Rick, that was a good question. I'm curious. Was the question, though, is there different types like different species or when you say is there different types are you asking different abilities um different um i think uh when i meant by type i mean different abilities it just seems to me

that um there are certain types that have more abilities than others some appear to be some type of primate well you know when when we get footprints and you can actually study the footprints they do have dermal ridges on the footprint cells, which denotes primate. And that is a physical phenomenon. And then you get these cases where you have this type of creature that is able to mind speak and zip from one point to another, disappear. You could actually hear them, but you can't see them, that type of thing. And I was wondering if it's more of different types and different abilities within different types. I'm not so sure that to all of them are physical. I'm really not.

Yeah, it could, it could really be. We get a lot of, not so much anymore, but in the 70s and 80s, we were getting a lot of three-toed footprints in Pennsylvania. Very, very strange. You know, people were seeing what looks like Bigfoot, you know, big hairy, upright things. And then the footprints would be just these big, three-toed-looking things, which, you know, isn't very primate-like. But that's what we were getting. and yeah, so it really makes you wonder. Yeah, I've heard of accounts where people were camping,

and they had a lot of commotion around the campsite, and all of a sudden they come out, and they can hear these things running bipedal, boom, boom, boom, boom, through the camp, and not see a thing. It makes you wonder if it's, you know, paranormal. I don't know. It's the bluff charge where the creature never shows.

You know, I've been on the end of one of those. I wasn't as close as my investigation partner. This guy is hard to scare. He's a dependable guy. And I was talking to a witness. We were actually at the site of the location. And I hear some crashing, but I, you know, he, this dude comes running out and grabs me and is move, move, move. And nothing ever showed, you know, and we've had a couple other times.

We've, you know, had things pace us. And it sounds like they're right beside you. and you shine your lights over at night, there's nothing there. But it sounds like they're walking right beside you. I've had paranormal cases that same type of phenomenon, right? Strange. That is strange. You know, there's a couple things I want to get into, like magic whispering and other things.

But, you know, talking about this extraordinary ability that these creatures seem to have, there's a famous case, and most of my listeners who've been listening for a long time know about it, but it had to do with these two brothers and a very, very long story short, I'll tell you how the story ends. They thought I was apes, and some sort of primate. These guys were being just tormented by these things, and very physical. I mean, they had pictures, and the pictures look like some physical beings are sitting there in tall grass, and, I mean, they do have evidence, physical evidence, that they're there, And the way they got rid of these things, basically at the very end of the story, out of desperation, they called a spirit medium lady.

And I don't know if that's really what her title was. That's what they called her. She shows up and she prays in the name of Jesus Christ. Coincidentally, it works. These things stop tormenting these guys. They're still on the property, but they're not as aggressive coming at these guys. And with these guys, you know, they really didn't want to tell me about all of the bizarre. are things going on at the time. I think I interviewed them in the 200s with the episodes. And at the time,

I really thought we were chasing an ape. And reluctantly, they told me what was going on on this property and what they had witnessed. And everything from glowing eyes and they said, you know, these things vanish, but they don't really vanish. They're still there. They had all these things going on and all these weird things that seemed to be impossible. And her comment to these two brothers, after they prayed and did all this other stuff on the property, the brothers asked the spirit medium lady, what are these things? And she told them that they're empty vessels coming up out of the earth. And only when they are possessed can they do these extraordinary things, you know, like glowing eyes or, you know, stuff that just seems impossible. Probably 30 years ago,

there was a famous case of a guy who was being possessed. I think it was like on the I haven't heard a club or something like that. We had like two channels or three channels at the time. You would see, you can still find it on YouTube, but you would see this guy. I mean, he sweat blood. He had all these cuts appearing in his face. It wasn't his voice. His whole facial structure changed during the possession.

It didn't look like the same guy. When the possession was over, it was like nothing happened. He went back to normal. And all this has been recorded, like on a VHS recorder. back then there was no CGI, there was no, it didn't exist. And it's probably one of the most fascinating cases to watch. But what are your guys' thoughts on that? I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, only when Bigfoot's possessed can they do all these weird things.

Because she also said when they're not possessed, you're going to run into what you think is an animal. But what are your thoughts on that, guys? I mean, I think it's certainly possible. there was a case from well Stan Gordon was on it in the 70s in Pennsylvania where UFO landed on this farm

and this guy he and some two of the neighbor kids went up to look at it and they get up there and there's this orb glowing it's either landed in or just hovering just a few feet above the field they're looking at it and suddenly they see these two bigfoot

things walking along the fence line and one of the The kids could scare. They had a rifle with them. They said, shoot it, shoot it, shoot it. And he shoots it. And I think he said he had a tracer rounds in it. So they could see it would light up and they could see these creatures.

And he shot once, I think it had no effect. He shot again. He said the creature looked like it kind of reached out and almost like tried to reach for the bullet as it went by. And they just kept coming these things. And they decided to go. They went back down. they called the police. At the time, Stan Gordon was,

the police would actually call Stan Gordon when all this weird stuff happened. Stan and his investigation team came out there. And while they were there, this witness became what seemed to be possessed and possessed by the creatures. It was running around and howling. They said his voice wasn't his own. By the way, Stan has a cassette tape of this. I've been trying to get him to let me have it for years. He's very protective of his witnesses, and I have not heard it, but he does have a cassette of this.

I know people who have heard it. And this witness was acting like he was possessed, and if I might have this detail wrong, but I believe he wore glasses. And then afterwards, when he came back to, he didn't even ask for his glasses. He had lost his glasses running around. Apparently, you know, terrifying, like, you know, his own father was, like, completely frightened by the way he was acting. And I think when he came to, he didn't need his glasses anymore. If I'm remembering that correct, I might have that detail wrong, but I think that was part of it. Very, very strange case.

But, you know, he seemed to actually be possessed by one of the creatures. So, yeah, I mean, could that be an element of it? I guess so, yeah, especially if these things are somehow spiritual. That's the first time I've heard of the empty vessel thing. You know, I've never heard of, you know, was it, is it supposed to be a, I mean, inanimate creature that's only animated when it's so quote, unquote, possessed. I don't know. Yeah, they were animated object.

I mean, they were animated creatures. They weren't just, I think the point she was trying to make was they are abominations coming up out of the earth. Basically, that's what she was trying to say. And only when they're, well, let me back up a little bit. There was a lot of weird things going on on this property. one of the things, for instance, was this woman in white they were seeing all the time. And it wasn't a ghost. It wasn't.

They even referred to her as the homeless woman in white. And me being a donkey, I never thought to ask questions about this woman in white. And when I did, you know, they would say she's an older lady. She has dreadlocks and she wears the same clothes every day. And it looks like she stole them. And I would say, well, what do you mean she stole them? And they would say, well, none of her clothes fitter. You know, there was, everything was several sizes too big for her, even down to her shoes.

It looked like her shoes had, she stole her shoes. And I said, well, what a stolen shoes look like compared to, you know, non-stolen shoes. And they said that it's like clown shoes. Her shoes are the size that she wears is about five sizes too big. And it looks funny when she's around. But she never really did anything weird. It was she would never talk to them. She would cross over from the National Forest onto their property back to the National Forest.

And they never really had a conversation with her. She wouldn't talk to them. And they tried several times. And kind of one of the last nights that they realized it wasn't a woman in white, these creatures were fighting up on this original line. It sounded like all hell was breaking loose. And here comes this one. woman in white, and they're trying to tell her, don't go up there. You know, you're going to get killed. She doesn't even look at them. She just keeps going. And it wasn't until the next morning when she

came down from the ridge line was crossing their property going back to the National Forest, that one of the brothers stopped her. And when she turned around, she gave this really evil smile and was gone. She didn't run off. She just wasn't there anymore. And it really shook both brothers up. But when she was talking about these creatures, she was saying they don't have free willed, their abominations coming up out of the earth. It was just weird. I mean, strange, what do you do with that? Yeah, that's interesting. I remember you telling me about this lady, the guy that mentor me and the demonology aspect of things, Dave Considine from he's a religious demonology in Connecticut. And when I heard the story about,

And I've heard it before. A lot of people refer to as the old hag dressed in white, you know, clothing that's, you know, two and three and four times larger than what she needs and the clown shoes and so forth. And when I told him about that, I remember him telling me, no, that's a demonic entity. And I'm like, by that what do you mean? He says, well, you know, the reason she wears clown shoes is because she wants to hide her feet because her feet are actually. Crow's feet, three-toed crow's foot or something to that effect, bird's feet. And that denotes the woman with those type of feet denoted a certain type of demonic entity. And I thought that was rather interesting, especially when these two brothers said that she disappeared and she had this, I think he said she had a nefarious look on her face or evil look before she disappeared.

Is that correct? Yeah, it was a evil smile. Yeah, evil smile. Okay. Yeah, and that's what he told me that she was, that that, that, that sounds like an entity that is a demonic entity. I can't recall which one he said it was. And I've been trying to research that. And, you know, the only female demonic entity that I could find with those type of feat is, is a, is an entity referred to as Lilith. I'm Roman Catholic and I was researching it. And the Catholic Church says that right now, this point in time, they can't determine whether that was a real entity or not through scripture or anything like that. But supposedly, Lilith was the first woman that Adam had prior to Eve. And supposedly she had offspring from Adam. And then something happened. There was, you know, something happened between the two. There was a disagreement or whatever. She left. And then Eve came along. Again, you know, scripture doesn't support that. That's just more or less old Hebrew folklore or whatever.

If that's the case, and you know, this entity is mating with Adam and having offspring, I don't know. I mean, this is, I mean, we're getting really, really deep in the rabbit hole here when we talk about this stuff. All the speculation, we really don't know. But this stuff comes up and, you know, if you don't ground yourself rather quickly, you can go way off the deep end. So I try that to take it too seriously. But that's what that's the information I found out. When I was doing research on the women and white connection to, you know, wild men, Bigfoot, etc. By luck, I stumbled onto this.

I was just doing, you know, all the folklore research I could. But there's a woman, and sometimes they call her goddess. She wasn't really a goddess, a pagan goddess. She was more like one of these fairy-type entities. And her name was Perkda in Germanic folklore. And it's really interesting because they said she wore white. She could appear as either an old hag or a very young woman. But either one or both feet were too large and they were birds' feet.

And she was accompanied by a retinue of two different things. One was called the Heimchen, and those were the souls of children that she had lured off into the woods and killed. And they took the form of glowing balls of light, orbs. And then the other part of her retina were called the Perkton. And these were hairy wild men. So here we have a woman in white with either one or both feet, you know, two large and birds' feet. And she's accompanied by hairy things and lights in the woods. So to me, I find that, you know, very, very interesting.

Again, it's in old folklore, and then I looked all over the world. And so many of these folkloric wild men have a counterpart, a female counterpart that's either explicitly a woman in white or sometimes it will be like another creature, but it's also, you know, they'll say she's white. So it's very, very interesting. It appears all over folklore. That is very interesting. Yeah, that approximates what's, you know, what could be happening. I don't know for sure. but yeah, that sounds very interesting.

And a lot of people, the pagan gods or goddesses were actually demonic beings. And then you get into the other elemental species like fairies and so forth, which are a form of demonic, but it's a little bit different. Your description of that entity sounds very interesting, very interesting. Yeah, it makes you really wonder about these three-toed tracks people are finding. I know down in the south, they'll find them quite often, but when you look at them, it looks like a T-Rex or like a bird's feet, that sort of thing, you know, some sort of lizard or something. And a lot of the tracks I've looked at, they don't, I mean, unless there's a T-R-X down there wearing a bigger-sized shoe than I have running around, I don't know what that is. You'll hear a lot of the answer you'll get from the Bigfoot world from experts, so speak.

they'll say, well, you know, that's because of imbreeding. That's what you're seeing there with those three-toe tracks that appear to be like bird tracks. And I don't, you know, I'm not an expert, but I don't think embriding causes your feet to look like bird feet when you're running around in the mud. But, you know, what do I know? Embreading tends to cause more toes, not less. Yeah, yeah. And besides the bone structure of the foot would be completely different. I don't think

inbreeding would contribute to the structure of the foot deviating so much yeah I'm with you I'm with you Wes yeah and I want to wrap up with a lot of these oddities

you'll find in different genres specifically UFO paranormal and crypted type of encounters the first one is an easy feeling you know the feeling of being watched. And you can kind of pass that one off and go, well, you know, if you're in a crowded room, someone's staring at you, you turn around and someone's looking at you. But if you're

to really listening to how these eyewitnesses are describing it, it's almost like there's a presence there. They're being watched. They can't quite figure out where it's coming from. It's a very uneasy feeling. And you hear that in ghost encounters and UFO encounters. The other one is offensive smells. And you and I talked about this. on the last show, Rick. But offensive smells, you know, in ghost and UFO encounters, people describe sulfur smell, especially in a lot of demonic encounters. Sulfur smell is just a worst smell ever, and it's just there.

And it's weird. In Bigfoot encounters, it's the same way. You walk into a wall of smell. And as we talked about last show, that's not really how smell works. You smell it as you come up on something. But these eyewitnesses, they'll describe this smell. that just hit you. You just walk right into it.

And if you walk to the left or to the right or take one step back, you don't smell it anymore. Investigators will say, well, you know, gorillas have this, I forget what's called underneath their armpits. And it's like a gland, you know, when they're scared. Okay, we can go with that. But what's the deal with you walking into a wall of smell? Like the way people are describing smells, this is weird. Another one on the list is I had a paranormal guy contact me one time and he goes, you know, you sure have a lot of people describing magic whispering on your show. And I go, what's magic whispering?

And he goes, in the ghost world, magic whispering is where you hear people talking, but you can't make out what they're saying. And in a lot of hauntings, you'll find this, like in the forest or in people's homes, it gets reported a lot to where you hear people talking, but you can't make out. make out anything they're saying. And we call it magic whispering. And how many times do you hear hunters, people who've had encounters, they'll go, I heard it sounded like people talking. I couldn't make out anything they were saying. The last one, you know, the mind speak in a lot of UFO encounters, a lot of alien abductions, even Travis Walton. I interviewed Travis Walton, the fire in the sky. He talked about this mind speak and how they don't, they almost, kind of speak to you in your mind in a lot of demonic and real paranormal encounters, you'll hear

eyewitnesses talk about that, and you'll hear about it in Sasquatch encounters. And I've asked people, you know, sometimes we have a voice in our head that goes, what the hell you're still doing here, get out of here? And I'll ask people, was it like your inner voice? And a lot of times, they'll describe it as if someone or something was talking to them, or the other way I've heard it describe is it's like an unnatural idea or something that comes into your head. And it's uninvited. And, you know, when you start looking at all these different genres, you know, if we're chasing an ape, if we're chasing a non-human primate, we just can't seem to catch up with for some strange reason. And you hear this weird stuff from my

witnesses, which, by the way, most of them don't want to come on the air and talk about it publicly. and they're consistent on what they're telling you, when the world's going on here, you know what I mean? It's so difficult for me to separate them anymore. You know, the UFO people don't like that, the Bigfoot people don't like that, the Ghost people don't like that. They like to have their nice, you know, for the most part.

There are certain people that are fine with it, but for the most part, people like to have their nice little niches. And, you know, the UFO people think the Bigfoot people are crazy and the Bigfoot people think the ghost people are silly and et cetera, et cetera, on down the line. But I have real difficulty separate him anymore. When you talk about voices, Wes, one thing I always wanted to bring up, and I don't know if I ever talked to you about it on the show before is at Skimwalker Ranch,

when they were having all this poltergeist activity, they were hearing these voices, these unknown voices. And they described it as something taught. Russian backwards. Does that not seem like the Sierra sounds to you? Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, it does. Yeah.

Like, they said, you know, it was, they couldn't identify the language. They just said, oh, it sounded like somebody talking Russian backwards. You get that with poltergeist activity, too. People hear, like, unknown languages and real harsh sounding. They'll say it sounded real angry and real harsh. You know, it just makes me wonder. And then, you know, if there's more crossover than anyone, would like to admit, but I personally, I'm having trouble separated them anymore. I think

they're all connected. How and why? That I can't tell you. But I really feel like there's too much similarity between all these different things. There are great deal of similarities in all three. I'm going to work my way up. Mufon, when we have the product key cases, they have the same type of phenomena. I refer to it as poltergeist, kind of a general term. But that involves the so-called magical whispering, the movement of objects, the seeing of, you know, witnessing apparitions moving through the hallway, shadow people, that type of thing, mind speak, all of that. And when you get into the paranormal, you have the same thing.

In the paranormal realm, we classify things in two general terms. One is you could have an intelligent, haunting where the entity or whatever it is interacts with you, communicates with you, responds to you, or you could have a residual haunting where, you know, theoretically what the residual haunting is, is some researchers will say that whatever happened if it's a, you know, a murder at a specific location, a lot of high energy, high emotion, that somehow or another, that negative incident impacts itself on the environment. And when the environment, you know, approximates the original environment that will replay. It's kind of like a recording on the environment itself. That's what they refer to as a

residual haunting. For example, you might see a lady, let's say you see an apparition of a lady that, you know, she does the same thing every night or so. She comes out of one wall and goes into another wall. It's like she does the same thing each and every time. And then when you do a little research on the structure the building or the house, you'll find that maybe two or three hundred years ago, that used to be a doorway that she came out of in a doorway that she went into that has just been covered up. So, you know, they kind of classify that as the possible residual or a recording on the environment. And then you've got incidents where an intelligence haunt, an interactive haunt, where, you know, you might ask a question, they'll respond with a knock, or, you know,

you'll see, you'll see one, and they'll respond to you, look at you, interact with you. disappear or whatever. But you have the same thing, the magical whispering, you have the poltergeist type stuff. In the demonic cases, magical whispering is very predominant. In a case where you have an infiltration or a infestation issue within a home, that's when the demonic is acting upon a structure or a location. So according to St. Thomas Aquinas, he does,

a lot of work on the demonic and the angelic. And according to him, these entities cannot occupy space because they're pure spirit. So through their intellect and will, they can affect an area and do whatever they need to in a specific area. And they can also affect two or three different areas at the same time, you know, because they're pure spirit and they just operate through pure intellect and will. But getting back to the poltergeist activity in homes and so forth, the magical whispering, the telepathic type of messages, mindspeak, all that is predominant. And in the Bigfoot field, I don't have a great deal of experience in that area, but I'm seeing areas where people actually have mindspeak with these creatures.

And they also have certain poltergeist activity occurring in a house or on the property. that these things are supposedly visiting or, you know, inhabiting or whatever. So, yeah, there's a great deal of similarity. And I'm trying to, and that's why I've switched so much. I'm trying to figure this stuff out. I'm trying to connect the dots. And the more I connect the dots or tend to connect the dots, the more down that rabbit hole I go, and I just have to pull myself out because it can, it's mind-boggling.

And, you know, I can understand a lot of people. They want to, they want to be able to wrap their mind. around something and they have a simple explanation so that they could feel in control of that information. But when you get deep into this stuff, there is no control of information. It, you know, it can confound you. It really will, really will confound you to the point where, you know, you just have to back away from it ever down then. And I've had to do that. And, you know, I get out of this demonic thing. I haven't been involved in one of those cases in a while because those things affect me. And I've had, you know, retaliatory effects, you know,

and attacks from those things. And, you know, I'll just stay away from them for a while to that stuff just eases off. And that's why, you know, I'll just sit on my front porch after a while and drink a little whiskey, smoke a cigar, watch a tree grow. You know, you have to do that. You have to disconnect. If you don't, you know, it's, you know, it's not, it's not healthy mentally. Yeah, I've found that to be absolutely true. It was reinforced by, again, brother Richard is someone whose advice I take to heart on this. And he said very much the same. He said, you know, every now and then just you need to take a break, get away from it, watch a comedy, you know, read a book that has nothing to do with it, you know, whatever, but just get away from it for a while.

And he said, always keep a light attitude towards it. You know, you try to have humor and just keep a light attitude because it can go to some very obsessive places. I guess obsession doesn't always have to be dark, but it definitely can lead you down that road. Oh, absolutely. And these things, you know, they can draw you in easily through curiosity and all that type of thing. And you cannot be too curious. You just have to be able, you know, take care of business and just get out. I've heard things, you know, like walking up the stairs.

I've had my animals hurt. And that's one thing. You know, these things, well, they would like, they'd like to attack you at your most vulnerable point. And I own dogs, you know, I own German shepherds and cats and so forth. And they mean a lot to me. So what's, what are they going to do to get back at me? They'll go after my animals. And, you know, I've had, I think I've had one cat killed.

I've had one dog affected and thrown across. a room, well, halfway across a room, things of that sort. And I just have to do a clearing and certain special prayers. And I have to, well, you know, it's a meditative type thing with me. I do the rosary and all that to get to clear things out. And after a while, you know, it settles down. But this is something you don't mess with. Do not mess with it. You do not play with it. These things are more intelligent than you are. They've been around a lot longer than you have. and they're, you know, you just, you have to be very, very, very careful. Yeah, I'll kind of throw a curveball, like you guys, get your guys' opinion on this.

I've often wondered, is it all deception or is there something going, it's not like a dark cloud? I'm trying to think of the weight of word this. I guess I'll just come out and say it. In the, let's go with the Bigfoot community. Why is it? And I'm talking about like, you know, your investigators, your quote-unquote researchers, experts, that sort of thing. Why is it 90% of those people that you run into are some of the worst human beings on the planet? I mean, they're just, you've heard the term the Bigfoot community loves to eat their own.

But you'll see that in the ghost world. You'll see that in the UFO world. You'll see where there's this infighting and bickering and a lot of pride. and a lot of ego over nothing, you know, and people are so quick to cut each other's throats over, if there's any form of success, they're going to sit and go, ah, that guy's a pile of garbage, you know,

or try and get one Bigfoot investigator to say something nice about 10 Bigfoot investigators. Probably isn't going to happen. Same thing in the UFO world and in the ghost world. And I've often wondered, is it like a dark cloud that's over these subjects? is, you know, all these people are kind of cut from the same cloth. Is it the subject that it's something unknown and this just kind of breeds this type of person?

Or is it more sinister? Sort of like a dark cloud over this subject. Just kind of a side thought. There is a self-negating aspect to the paranormal. People get wound up in it and, you know, they stumble and fall. You know, we were talking about this all fair. Yesterday, I think, Wes, when I was saying about how many so-called respected researchers end up hoaxing stuff. It just happens that you get drawn into this weird side of this stuff.

And I think that's what Rick and I were kind of talking about making sure to take breaks and making sure to back up and making sure to try to keep as much as you can a light attitude towards it because it can really pull you in. One metaphor I like to use, because most people have seen the Lord of the Ring movies, is when you mess with the paranormal, it's like putting on the one ring. And that eye of Soren just turns and looks at you. And, you know, that can be a mighty, scary thing when it starts popping up in all aspects of your life and so forth. So you have to be guarded against it. And I'm sure, I don't know, maybe there's people out there think I'm one of the jerks too. I don't know.

But I try not to be. And, you know, I, but I have seen it. I have seen it in the, in the ghost world, in the ghost groups. I know a number of ghost groups that they can't stay together. They will form. And then two weeks later, there's another, you know, they've changed their name. And half the people are started in another group and all kinds of infighting and this and that. You know, it happens, you know, like you said, all over this stuff.

So I feel like it's just this aspect. of the paranormal, that's just, it's just weird. I hesitate to call it demonic, but it's certainly not a good thing. You know, I wouldn't say, you know, it's a good thing by any measure. It's just, it's just there. It's just, you know, part and parcel. It goes with the territory. Exactly.

I've seen the same thing. It's kind of a, you know, it's, there's a great deal of infighting in competition within all three. Uphology, paranormal, Bigfoot. Everybody wants to own it for some, for some, for some. reason. You know, I own this. I know this. You know, I believe this. And your opinion doesn't count. And, you know, don't bother me with that. You know, it's, um, uh, you that's no way to be. If you want to learn something, you look at everything. And, uh, you know, within the paranormal field, specifically, you know, I think people, groups should share data, um, on what they found and, and, uh, things of that. sort. And I think in the Bigfoot field, too, although I haven't been in that area or that area of research, maybe the past five years. I have very few cryptic cases under my belt.

But I'm starting to see it, too. When you go to these conferences and so forth, you know, so everybody knows more than the other. And it's like a competition. And it shouldn't be a competition. They should be working together, you know, to come up with some answers. you know, and I agree with Tim on that. It's just too much infighting. And, you know, I try to stay out of that. I've got my small little group, and we get along really well. And we don't try to compete with anyone, you know, and we just do what we do.

We gather what we can gather. If nothing else, you know, we don't get upset. If we don't have any activity, we, you know, it's a good camping trip. And I think a lot of people have forgotten that. They just, you're doing this, you know, don't dwell on it so much as if you're life depended on it. But, you know, it's just take it easy, calm down, love life. In a very practical way, there might be an element of, like, fame-seeking to some of this.

You know, there's been a lot of ghost TV shows, a lot of Bigfoot TV shows. I've gotten the impression that some of these people are just like, they're just sure they're going to be the next, you know, big TV star in a ghost world or the Bigfoot world or whatever. So that may figure into it. But, you know, that doesn't explain all of it, certainly. That figures a great deal into it because, you know, the group I'm with Center for Paranormal Research and Investigation, my wife started it back in May of 2000. And that was prior to ghost hunters or any of those other shows that came out. And we had a lot of good cases. And, you know, we had, you know, we were like the only, the first paranormal group in Virginia.

And, you know, things went well until the shows started coming out. And then you had two groups, four groups, eight groups, 20 groups. And everybody's competing against each other. And you get people that, you interview clients that have had one or two groups that show up, stir things up. I call them experiencers. They go in there to experience something. Then they run out, you know, have a beer. And leaving the family behind, you know, in a situation that,

you know, they stirred something up and now the family has to pay for it. That's kind of an ethical on my part, but I don't think a lot of groups think that way. But yeah, these UFO shows have come up and so forth, but more so the paranormal. And now Bigfoot, yeah, you've got a lot of groups coming out and doing their thing, you know, knocking on trees.

And it's got to the point where you go out to an area, a research area, and you hear knocking on a tree and you think it might be some type of legitimate activity and it's another group over on the next bridge line or something. I've run into that yet, but I'm waiting for the time when I do. Yeah. You know, you get the screaming and the howls and you're like, well, that's, that's, that's human.

Let's just go. Forget it. We're not, you know, the area is contaminated now. So, you know, I'm not faulting them. They're doing what, you know, believe they should do. But it's just, it's just getting too crazy in some of these areas. And especially these popular areas, oh, my goodness. Oh, my.

You know, it's like, you know, you go hunting. in a favorite spot, you know, everybody's shooting at everybody. It just, it's really wild. Yeah, I appreciate you guys' feedback on that. You know, being popular or having your name known in the Bigfoot world is, it's like being the skinniest kid at Fat Camp. It's not as good as it sounds.

But, you know, with regard to these subjects, like I said, pride, envy, and a lot of ego, the three things I hate the most from human beings. beings you'll find a lot. And maybe it is a subject. Maybe it's, you know, the fact that it's unknown and it just kind of breeds that sort of person. But I really appreciate you guys coming on and sharing your thoughts on this. It's one of those subjects that it's kind of hard to talk about on a Bigfoot show because most people don't want to hear this sort of thing. And, you know, it makes you stop and think about a lot of things. But Rick, if people were to contact you,

how would they get a hold of you? You can totally be by the way of email that R-A-A-T-R-I-S-T-A-I-N. First two initials, last name, at gmail.com. And also the Virginia chapter of the Dogman Research Project, reach us there as well. Also, you can contact me through our group, CPRI Center for Paranormal Research and Investigations in Virginia. Just Google that and it'll come up with the organization. And if you have any issues of problems, either uphology or paranormal or cryptic, just let me know.

We'll do what we can for you, try to investigate it as best we can. Yeah, and I really enjoyed having you on Rick and getting your feedback and your opinions on things. Timothy Renner has the podcast Strange Familiar's. He's on YouTube and whatever podcast player you're listening to on here, definitely go check out Strange Familiar's. Tim, how can someone contact you? So I moved to all my information is at strangefamiliors.com just to make it easy for everybody. So the podcast is there, but you can find my contact information and links to my books and everything else right there. Yeah, and I know I'll be having you back, Tim, so we can discuss your new book.

I'm really looking forward to that. And I appreciate it again, fellas. Thanks so much for coming on. Thank you for having me, Wes. And that's it for tonight. I won't remember if you've had an encounter. shoot me an email. My email address is Wes at Sasquatchfronticles.com.

If you get a chance to check out, Sasquatchpronicles.com, you can become a member and get additional shows. Until next time, everyone.