Sasquatch Chronicles - SCEP:185 Sasquatch in Montana

Episode Date: January 17, 2016

Tonight we speak with Brian "Duke" Sullivan - bigfoot eyewitness and founder of the Montana Bigfoot Project. Duke talks about seeing a Sasquatch as a child when he was sledding with a friend. Duke has spent over 40 years researching this topic and has come to several conclusions regarding the "type" of creatures out there. We will be talking about his encounter and the research that followed. Listen in as Duke shares his stories of Sasquatch encounters and strange findings in his home state of Montana.

Five, five, four, four, three, three, two, one. One. When I had come down this hill, I had seen this creature cross the road. They would have ripped my locked door from my truck, extracted me from my vehicle, and there wasn't a damn thing I could have done about it. This thing I got to notice in its eyes. His eyes was real, real evil, real sinister way.

You know, the look it was given me. What would airport? See them. Get somebody out here. What's going on now, sir? That son of a bitch is about six foot. Sir? Yes, I'm looking right at him. Sasquatch Chronicle.

Place where people share their accounts. Let's start the show. Here we go. You guys don't mind if I just sit and watch these boys play and drink my margarita, do you? Welcome to the show, everyone. Thanks for being here tonight. Sunday evening. How's your week, Ben?

How's your weekend treating you? Thanks for being here. tonight. Got a great show planned for you this evening. I'll be speaking to Duke, and Duke's been researching this topic for about 40 years, and he's had a couple scary encounters when he was young, and a couple when he was an adult, and we'll get into some of those tonight. But I wanted to thank everyone for being here tonight.

I smell Hotel California coming up. Wait a minute, here it is. Hotel California, everyone. quite possibly the greatest song ever made. Welcome to the show. Remember, if you've had an encounter and you'd like to be on the show, shoot me an email. My email address is Wes at Sasquotronicles.com. And if you had a chance to check out the website,

Sasquotronicles.com for additional blogs, additional shows. I know I did a couple shows last week. I've been getting a lot of questions from listeners when they listen on their podcast player. They notice there's a bunch of shows missing. Those are subscriber shows. And I'm working on actually getting an app for the show. So if you get a chance to check out the website, Sasquatch Chronicles.com.

And again, if you've had any sort of encounter and he'd like to be on the show, shoot me an email. Wes at Sasquatch Chronicles.com. Welcome to the show, everyone. I really want to get into it tonight. There's a lot to jump into. Duke, I want to welcome you to the show.

show. Thank you for being here tonight. It's an honor for me to be on here, too. And hello to everybody out there that's a listener. Yeah, no, the honor's mine. And I know you had your, Montana's very first big sky, Bigfoot conference out there. And I was kicking myself because I really wanted to come to it. And it's not that far, I guess, as a crow flies from me.

I'm in Washington State. So it's not like I got to travel to the East Coast to get out there. But you're out of what? The Vancouver area near there? Yeah, Vancouver. right on the border of Oregon. I remember right here, about six hours, I think. It's still a bit of a drive, but yeah, it isn't on the East Coast or anything.

Yeah, no, I'll definitely have to come out this year. And before we jump into the encounters and all of your knowledge from doing this for so many years, are you guys going to have another conference this year? Well, it looks like it. The person that originally set up this one, we don't know what, if anything, they have planned at this point. and it may be that they just don't even want to do another one, but I have someone else that's a researcher up in the area here that's got over 20 years experience and doing research

and also travels around the country more than I do even and go on all these different places looking at everything. And she's pretty interested in carrying the torch if it sounds like it's not going to be happening any other way. So it seems fairly likely that there will be, in fact, a second one here, even if it doesn't have exactly the same name. It will be basically the same thing. Yeah, well, however contact me.

I'd love to promote it. I love gatherings like that with like-minded people, and people just kind of interested in the topic. I wanted to ask you, so you had been in this for over 40 years, and it all started with your own encounter, didn't it? Yes, it did. Yeah, I was one of those people that didn't really know anything about it, and if I had known about it, I would have thought it was just a fairy tale anyway,

and, no, it found me. Well, if you would, tell us what happened, from the very beginning. What were you out doing and what did you see? What did you experience? Well, I'll tell you, at the time I was about 10 years old, and I had one of my friends with who was a year younger than me. And being at that point young kids and really into the winter sports,

and we lived in northern Minnesota, so there's plenty of opportunity for that every year, at least six months of that. We were really into sledding. So what we were always trying to do was find the biggest, steepest hill we could. there was anywhere near within range of us being able to physically get there. And we had a couple of them that we found that were pretty nice, but the problem with one is it was too far away, and the problem with the other one is it was too well-known.

So there was tons of people over there all the time. There were snowmills going up and down in two plankers, and it was just crowded. So we were trying to find our own one. Well, now we had found out that there was a fire lane that went right next to the property line in my folks' house, and this thing went back in the woods close to three miles, at least. And then it just sort of dead-end.

During the summer, you couldn't get any further because you could see it went down a really steep hill into the slew that had this just morass in it, you know, probably fairly deep water, but not enough vegetation for trees to grow in yet. So it just had this like an English more type of look to it. And you just literally could not get across it. You tried to take a step in it. You'd just sink out of sight. So it was absolutely impassable during the summer.

It was like a moat that was stopping us from getting. there, but during the winter, when it got cold, not from the surface of it froze, then you could get across it, and as we found out, you either still had to have snow shoes, or you had to do what we did, which was laid down on your flat-bottomed plastic sled and sort of push yourself across with your feet and your arms, distribute all your weight in order you get across it. So when we got to the far side, we noticed that, hey, there's a really big hill over here, really up to the top of the hill, which took us quite a bit, and then we noticed on top of that hill, there was another big hill. We trudged up to the top of that one, and on top of that was a third big hill.

So we were in Hawk Heaven. We had just discovered the ultimate sledding around, and, oh, my God, this is going to be so awesome. And we weren't going to have any competition out here, nobody knew where it was. We'd be the kings of our own sledding hill with only our friends being allowed, you know, childhood dreams of glory dancing in our heads. So the day that we were out there, it was fairly warm. It was up in the teens, maybe low 20s at the most.

But it was not that the afternoon sun was melting the snow. it was compactable, so we figured if we're going to make a sledding run, this is a good time. Let's figure out how to go down this hill, and it had a couple turns in it because of the way the hill was, the second hill was at a different angle, laid out, a couple supers. And we spent most of the afternoon out there making noise and setting up this whole sledding run, then we went back to my place. A few days later, it finally got cold enough that we figured it was nice and solid, and we should try it. And this, I'm guessing, and the only reason I guess is because I didn't talk about this story

for years and years and years. And I remember all the particulars except things like date, which you don't remember when you're 10 years old is relevant anyway. But from what I can remember, it was the second week in February. I know for a fact the temperature was hovering around 20 below. It was mid-afternoon. It was a bright sunny day. And we decided, well, that's nice and cold, everything solid.

We won't go flying through the supers. They will actually keep us hopefully on the trail. And so let's go try out our new Luzerun. So we got out there. He two us had taken like two trips down the hill. I think I had either done my third or was on my third. And we were staggered because having enough experience, we realized if you got on a really fast hill and the guy in front of it piles up,

you don't want to be the one right behind them. You're going to pile up too. And probably, you know, potentially injured both to be even worse. So we were staggered or flying down the hill. And I was at the top of the hill. He was about halfway up at which meant he was still a good five minutes or more from being up to where I was. and I put my sled down and put it back a little bit away from the lip of the hill

so I could get a little bit of a running start on it and having gone down a couple times already I was less fearful that I would fly off and was taking more of a chance at that point and just as I was getting ready to jump on the sled I kind of looked back behind me and something wasn't right and I couldn't quite place what it was

and I just kind of blew it off and went, eh, no big deal, I'll figure it out later and then my subconscious went no, this is important look again. Took a second look. still didn't notice it. Well, once again, same thing happened. The third time I looked, I realized what it was

is there was amongst this whole, mostly all hardwoods along this hilltop. There was a really big black spruce back behind me off to, if I was standing with my back toward the sledding hill, it would have been on the right-hand side. And it had not one but three tree trunks, and two of them were covered with long, shaggy, white, and gray fur,

which is not right. And that's what was drawing my attention. Okay, trees don't have three tree trucks and they don't have fur on them. What's going on here? Well, the first thing that popped into my mind is somebody had found our ultimate sliding hill. Damn it. The words got out already. There's some, you know, a teenager from around the area that's already found it.

He's out here watching us and he's got furry snow pants on or something. So the first thing I did was look a little bit further up the tree to about the five, six foot level where I figured I'd see a human face peaking at me watching a little. what we were up to, and there was nothing there. But I had looked up high enough then that I could actually see that up above that about what I'm guessing is around the nine-foot level, there was a trace looking at me, and it was not a pleasant to look at face. And I had great big ridges above the eyes.

The eyes themselves, the orbits that they were fit in were a lot bigger than what you would expect for a human or even most of the great apes that we know about. long lengthened between the bottom and the nose and the upper lip didn't have a snout on it. The face was very flat. The nose is very flat, and it wasn't like a human. The nostrils were set up, I guess it would be the best way to describe it.

It wasn't like it had nostrils on the side, but they weren't on the bottom either. And right about the point where I noticed it, it gave me a big old grin, which was not reassuring. at the time terrified the hell out of me because it had quite the arsenal including big upper and lower canines good thick ones and all I could think of is having seen bears and wolves

and whatnot around the area well here's another huge carnivore what the hell is this gray skin and I could see the tips and had claws on them I could you know and I described sometimes as talons sometimes as claws jury's still out on that I don't know what they were but man they look like claws they were curved they were shark and black.

And it was holding one tree branch up with one hand and the other tree branch down to the other hand. So I could see the tips of its fingers. I couldn't see its thumbs, so I don't know how long or opposable they are. But that's what I got to see. And I looked at its face maybe a second and a half, two seconds, and then my fighter flight instinct kicked in.

And obviously I wasn't going to be choosing the fight option. So I jumped on my sled and broke the world's speed record going down the hill. I like to tell people that I was imagining the cartoon shows where they take out so fast and leave a trail of burning rubber behind them or something like that. And I was pretty much at that point so terrified that I didn't care if I went flying off a super, piled a new tree, and died on the way down. It was better than that, whatever it was thing up there catching me. What's interesting and having the pleasure of talking with you the other night, and I know you've been doing this for over 40 years, I've talked to a couple witnesses that, well, more than a couple, that said it had. had canines both upper and lower.

And I can specifically remember one witness I actually talked to was in Texas. And he said that it had claws. And I said, like, did it have hands? Or was it, you know, are we talking like a bear paw? He said, no, no, no, no. It had hands like human hands. But the nails were so long. He described him more as yellow, a yellowish.

But he said they were like claws. And he didn't really know what. if it fit in the Bigfoot category or if it was something else. And I've only spoken to a few witnesses that have really talked about them having what appears to be claws on their hand. I don't know if it's a, what's your take on that? I know looking back at your encounter, do you think it was just long nails that it had? No, honest God, I think it was something more along the lines. If it was nails that they either grew that way or they had somehow shaped and sharpened,

so that they were claw-like. Because, you know, I got a really good view at that. I was not more than 40 feet away from them. And so I got a pretty dang good view of the end of his fingers with those claw-looking things on them. And, you know, I usually describe as talents because they reminded me up when I was a little kid. And I have heard that in other reports,

and most of those reports, they don't match with your normal patty-type big-foot report. There's a whole bunch of things that are off about them. However, they do match with each other. which is the reason that I've finally come to my belief, my theory at this point, is that there's just multiple sub-varieties. And what I saw was the sub-Arctic variety, which, you know, if I was going to classify,

I'd a given name like a hominid arctos horribalist or something like that. And I've talked to other people that have seen these things and whatnot, and their descriptions are all really, really similar. The length of the fur is different, the face is different, teeth is different. They have claws, not just on their hands, but on their feet,

which, again, is going to throw a lot of people because if you're a hunter or something, you're out in the woods, and you run across a set of really big tracks, you look at them and go, well, what made these tracks? You know,

and if there are any claw marks on there, you're going to think, well, maybe it was a big foot, one of those things that people are talking about. However, if there are claw marks on there, you're going to right away go, well, it's a bear. Never mind the fact that a bear's back foot

doesn't look, exactly the same as a big foot track, but unless you'd actually take it a bunch of time to look at both of them, you wouldn't know the difference. So I think there's a lot of misidentification going on. The other thing I think is that these, and I think there's two sub-varities that are chiefly carnivores, seem to be more adapted to a sub-arctic environment. And so you get a bunch of reports of them coming from all the way from Alaska, down through northern and central Canada and into the Upper East Coast, where the Knobskite Indians, had their most fear. And the guggoo are the ones that people sometimes talk about that have the snout like a baboon on them. They also have upper-lower canines, even more thick and massive.

And they're also in Central and Northern Canada, they're described as the man bear. Because a lot of people see one of these things and go, well, it looked kind of like a bear, but the legs were the wrong length, and it was walking around on its high legs all the time. And these things were just the terrors of some of these tribes on the East Coast, where they not only had this, but, you know, some of these tribes had, two or three different names for something that must have been similar to a Bigfoot, but the names have different translations to them. So you have to guess by how the name translates what it is that they're talking about.

And some of it is fairly apparent. Most all the names that translate as different versions of the Wendigo, and man, there was a bunch of those. Wendigo, Wittico, Wittico, all sorts, windigo-ag, all these different variations for the same name. All of them translate as cannibal giant. And then you've got other ones that aren't the same name like Strandu and some of the other names from the East Coast. But when you read the description of the creature that they're talking about, same exact habits, same exact look.

They're all describing the same thing. And on the West Coast, you've got a long history of the interactions between the natives. And the most part, it's pretty neutral. You know, Bigfoot come and mess with us occasionally, but they're not really dangerous. They like to steal our fish. and if you see one, you should just leave it alone, and they'll leave you alone, and it's sort of a live-and-let-live thing. The Upper East Coast is just the opposite.

It's like the local tribes and these things have wars of extermination with each other. The local tribes are all deathly afraid of these things. But Janoskwa, they basically did you have any weapons that could work on these things because of the attributes and the description of them all using applique armor, basically, coating themselves with small pebbles and rattle, little pieces of rocks, sand, attaching it to their fur by the method of rubbing themselves against fir, spruce trees, and getting the sap and the resin or something in their fur, and then just rolling around in this stuff that adheres to them.

Then after several applications, they're pretty much armored, and if all you've got as an arrow with the rock point on it, it's not going to go in, and it's not going to take the local natives very long to figure out we don't have any weapons that are effective on these things. The best thing we can do is just avoid them. While this goes on for a long period of time, and all of a sudden the white man shows up with his thunder stick and the local, that if you go a mess with these guys, they can kill you.

And at that point, their applicator armor becomes less useful. And that and probably other factors have to do with it. They're being less common nowadays. And I think a lot of them that didn't outright get exterminated ended up moving up into northern and central Canada. There's a climate more to their liking, and very few humans are going to mess around with it. Yeah, I tend to agree with you. I talked to a tribal elder one time, and he kept talking about the Janoskwa.

And I asked him, I said, what is it Janoskua? And he goes, well, it's like a Sasquat's just much worse. They're a lot more aggressive. He said they would roll around in sand, and, like you said, the pebble stone. And so when the sun hit him, it would appear. pure that they had armor. And so it used to terrify the local Native Americans because they'd see this thing, and it looked like he had armor on.

And he said all they'd do is roll around in the sand and the dirt. And then when he saw them, it would be shining like armor. And it used to scare the hell out of them. But he had nothing good to say about the Janoskua. I mean, he absolutely had nothing. He'd talk a little bit about the Sasquatch and talk a little bit about, like what you said, live and not live. And if you kind of leave them alone, they'll leave you alone.

He had nothing good to say about the Janoskwa. He said it's an off-sheet of the Sasquatch. They're very violent, and they will kill you, and they will eat you, and they have no problems doing that. And it was just fascinating to talk with him about that. Now, going back to your encounter, did you think that it was curiosity, or do you think you were a nice little menu item on a sled for this thing?

Oh, you know, and every five, six years I'll go back and run through that my head again, and compared with the information that I've gathered, and sometimes my impression of it changes a little bit. At this point, I know that when a great ape gives you a grin, they're not saying, hey, I'm your friend, let's hold hands and sing kumbaya. They're saying this is part of the arsenal that I've got to tear you into tiny shredded pieces and I'm going to use it if you don't get out of your stuff. Really, what I think is that he was so surprised that there were humans back there

that he really didn't know how to react to it other than coming over there and scaring us away. They probably figured they had an unassailable area, it back there that no humans were ever going to be able to get through that moat that basically they had in between those two hills and the swamps on both sides of it and you know why would a human want to get back there what's what's your purpose you're going to go shoot a deer and then drag it through that swamp yeah right um not happening so a i think he was pretty surprised to hear human voices back there at all and i'm pretty sure that probably one of the sentinels was there watching us the first day we were out there when we were spending all afternoon building that sledding run and then a few days

later when we showed up again, the alpha just got tired of it, and when that's it, I'm going to go tell him to get to hell out of it. And, you know, basically came out there to give us a little display and make us go away, because he was a big boy. He was nine feet tall. You know, I couldn't tell you exactly how his body was proportioned or how mass wood was or anything. That was hidden behind the tree branches from me, so it would be pure speculation.

But I can tell you that his shims were damn near as big as the trunk of the tree that he was standing next to, which is gigantic. You know, he obviously did not have a very happy demeanor. make any noise at all, but he did flash me that grin, which is more than enough to give me the hint. So really, I think it was just a territorial display. I think he just showed up to, you know, say, hey, you're in the wrong spot. This is my territory.

Get out of here. I think, you know, I could have ended up being a meal, but he was probably aware of the fact that there was two of us. He'd been sitting there for any length of time watching what we were up to and went, well, when one was on top of the hill, I don't know where the other one is. But I grabbed one, where's the other one? and then there's one to go back and tell, you know, whoever else, hey, my friend disappeared. Let's go search for them.

Yeah, it's interesting, too, you mentioned the behavior of it grinning. It's kind of like with apes and chimps, they tell you never to smile at them because it's a sign of aggression. You know, it's different when you smile at a human. Generally speaking, if someone's not a dick, they'll smile back. But, you know what I mean? With chimps and apes, they'll tell you don't smile at them because that's a sign of aggression. And that kind of goes along with Sasquatch, too. I mean, I think the same thing. I think the moment it shows you its teeth, it's like he said, here's the arsenal I'm going to use

against you. One of the things that's sort of interesting is that because they all have that print and that if they feel threatened, startled or alarmed, they'll flash their green at you has really helped us being able to get a handle on the fact that there are more than one variety of these things running around out there because you can tell just by the description of the face and the teeth what variety you're dealing with at this point, from my opinion anyway. Yeah, and I'd like to go into that here in a moment, but you had another encounter when you were taking or going out to get beer out of a car at a party. Would you mind telling that story? I was blown away by that story.

That's my scariest one. I actually got to see one here this summer at real close. range two when I was out camping by myself and that was nearly as scary as this one. Yeah, I was 16 years old and we were having a very, very rare event at my folks' house, which was them having a whole bunch of adult friends over to drink some beer and listen to music. I could count on one hand how many times it happened while I was a kid. So I think just the noise and activity there might have drawn some attention that otherwise wouldn't have been around there. But let me go back and before I bring this, I'll talk about a couple of the things.

weeks earlier. And this was early in the summer. Everything was still that really light, intense green color, but it was hot already. And we were hearing this weird noise coming from outside. I came in the house and went, Mom, do you know what that is? She said, no. I've never heard anything

like that. It might be a Wolverine or something. Go outside and get your brother. A little brother who was 10 years younger than he was out there playing with his matchbox car, so I went and gathered him up and brought him in the house. This went on for quite some time. I mean, it's hard to even estimate, but It was longer than like 15, 20 minutes.

It was going on over and over again. What was the noise? It's hard to describe it's sort of a growl going into a jibbering and ending with a bunch of snorts. And I can sort of, you know, give you a rough approximation. People that have heard enough of the Sierra sounds and stuff like that. I've probably heard this one before. But it goes something like this. In about every minute or two minutes, it would do that over and over.

And it was really loud. And we were really getting quite freaked out. about what is doing this now. And at this point, I didn't know anything about Bigfoot or any of the varieties making localizations or what sort of sound you might expect on them. So I had nothing to compare it to and had never heard an animal making noise like that, neither of my mom. So we got pretty freaked out by this whole thing.

Well, go back to two weeks later again when there's this big event going on, and it's still, yeah, got to be fairly early in the evening. It's spring, so days are long, so I'm guessing. maybe 11-ish, probably before midnight. And one of the adults had me outside to go get some beer out of the car. Well, it's a third car back. It's in there, go get it. Okay.

So I come walking out the front porch. Now, the front porch comes off the house, not facing toward the road, but at an angle out to the left, which puts it right onto the driveway. We had cars lined up both sides of the driveway all the way down to the end of it. We had a long, under feet long at least. So lots of cars lined up. And the driveway sloped upward to where the house was. The house was a little rise, but maybe close to a story high.

So some of the car that further down the driveway were about a story below you when you stepped out the front door. Now, we had two porch lights, and one of them was actually on, that was shining on the front yard. The other one that would actually shine on the garage and on the driveway was not on. So the area with the cars and in between the cars was in deep darkness and made even more so by the fact that you could see the area next to it lit up. So I'm walking out there, and I take a couple steps, and I'm down to the end of the sidewalk,

and I go walking out onto the driveway, and I start turning to go down the driveway, and I see there's somebody down in the driveway already. First thing I'm thinking is what goofy adult is out here drunk with sunglasses on because I can see what look like big sunglasses lens reflecting the light. And I'm going, well, that's kind of weird. I'm going to give him a hard time about being so dumb, dude, you're going to fall down and break your neck. It's night. Take your sunglasses off.

I took about another step, and then I realized that the distance between the lenses was long. Those were not sunglasses, which made me slow down a little bit. And I took another step, and I started, by then, I was down far enough down the slope, that I started being able to see a little bit of an outline of this thing. And whatever it was was about the same height as me, but it appeared to be squatting down on its haunches. And I went, oh, my God, this big bastard, he's come back to get me. Well, just to digress again for a second, we had this local bear that had actually tried to kill me a couple times before the hour already, that it ended up after this whole incident being killed by a state patrolman accidentally on his way to a really important call.

And going around this long curve was like 70 miles an hour, and the bear was running across the middle of the night. Boom, hit the bear, wiped out the squat car. A bear was 720 pounds It was like the second biggest bear In the state history Where he got nailed But he was really obvious He was such an old bear

And he was so gigantic So I figured that must be him He sitting there waiting for me To walk down the driveway into the dark And he's going to nail me What do I do now? I can't outrun a bear I'm already too close

If I stop moving He knows that I saw him And he'll be on me Before I get anywhere near the steps So as I'm slow slowly slowing myself down, walking slower and slower, and trying to think at lightning speed and figure out what to do. The only thing that occurs to me is, well, I need to play for time.

So even though the car that I was right next to wasn't the one that I was going to get the beer out of, I started pretending it was. I grabbed the front door, and I didn't actually push the button down or pull on it. I just kind of made it look like I was trying to do something with it. Bear doesn't know the difference. Yanked on a couple times up during opening up. So take a slow step to the door behind me. Now, I'm watching the reaction of whatever this is sitting there.

And again, I'm thinking it's the bear. Then as I look at it the second time, I realize it doesn't have those gray rings around its eyes or that gray diamond on its muzzle. It isn't on its haunches, and it's six feet tall sitting on its haunches. Now I'm getting really paranoid because it was bad enough having a 700-pound bear sitting there in the dark waiting for you to walk into it. Now I'm not even sure what it is. So I take another tentative half a step, turn a little bit sideways and start playing with the back door. I'm looking at it out of the corner of my eyes.

Now I'm low enough that I can actually see a good silhouette of this thing. I still can't make out any intense details on it. So to this day, I don't know what sub-variety it was. But what I can tell you is that its front knuckles were on the ground. It was sitting back on its haunches. It was six feet tall. It had maybe five inches in between its eyes, and it had huge shoulders. Bears don't have shoulders.

And then I knew what it was that I was looking at. And that scared the living hell out of me, because this thing is sitting in the dark, waiting for me to walk into it. And I'm now less than a car length away from it. It's standing approximately in between the front of the back door on the next car, and I'm at the back door on the car. So now I'm trying to move in slower. and play for time, and I'm thinking, well,

there's barely any space between the two bumpers on these cars. Maybe if I make it look like I'm trying to get into the truck, I can get a few more seconds of breathing time here to figure out what I can do. And there was barely enough room for even me as a 16-year-old kid to squeeze my calves in between the two bumpers, but I did it. And I played around to the trunk for a second, and that was the scariest moment in my life because he couldn't have been more than eight feet away from me.

And I basically had to turn my back on it in order to do this. So I was expecting death in any millisecond. this point. I finally managed to swivel enough that I could look out of the right side of my eye, and I was not looking directly at him. I was doing my best to make him thinking I hadn't seen him, didn't know that he was there, because he was still so close, he could have basically just stood up and grabbed me at that point. I got, you know, played around with the trunk a little bit. He didn't make any sudden movements or anything, so I slowly sidled around to the other side of the car and started playing with the back door there. Well, now I'm actually in the light on the yard.

So if he jumps on me at this point, adults up there presumably are going to notice that I'm being ripped apart by a saskwatch in the front yard. Maybe you should do something about this. At least that was my hold. But just in case nobody was paying attention, I duck down and I ran as fast as I could. The lengths of the two cars back up to where the porch was, dove up the porch, ran in the door, ran right into the back room. And at this time, we had a gun shop in our house. My dad is actually a gun dealer, and he had, you know, black powder guns and everything there. So I ran back to the gun cabinet, and I yanked out to the 12-gate shotgun.

And my dad goes, what's going on? What's going on? Well, because, you know, I'm like tail-white freaking out, running in the house, and there's this big party going on. I'm running right to the gun cabinet. And I said, big! And then I realized if I said, Bigfoot, I was just going to get ridiculed. The adults were going to throw me in my room and say, what are you been drinking?

and you know, ha, ha, ha, ha, laugh at me, nothing will happen, except I'll probably get in trouble and get ridiculed a wand. So right in mid-sentence, I stopped and thought about it for a nanosecond and realized that the best thing to say was to finish with the word bastard, because that was the name of the Big Bear. So I ended up actually saying Big Bastert, I grabbed the shotgun, I ran for the door, and by the time I got the inner door open and was going to the outer door, my dad was right behind me of the hunting rifle. We flipped on the other outside light that illuminated the driveway, and of course, by that he was gone because he, I got seen. I'm getting the heck out of here. So wisely enough, he got out of there before we could start blazing away at him.

We would have. Yeah, did you ever go back to your dad and say, hey, dad, it wasn't the bear? It was something else? No, I've actually never talked to my dad about any of this stuff because he's a real outdoorsman. He spent a lot of time up in Alaska. He was actually a hunting guide up there for a while. He did a trap line up there and everything. This is after he had gotten out of the Navy.

And he really loved the outdoors and hunting and fishing and everything. And he never apparently saw or heard anything that made him think that Bigfoot was real. And so he never said anything to us about it. And I just figured it wouldn't be the best subject to breach with him. He's kind of a hard-headed guy and probably wouldn't have taken it very well. And thought one of his kids had lost their mind or something. So that's another one of the things that just made it really tough. You know, you see something that's terrifying.

You want to talk to people about it, but who the heck can you talk to? It's not going to just think you're crazy. I tend to agree with you, and that's too bad. Your dad sounds like he was old school. I've talked to several of those guys, and they're tough guys. It's a different generational mentality, I think, with those guys. And I could be wrong, and you could correct me if I'm wrong, Duke. But, you know, even if your dad would have saw a Sasquatch, you probably never would have heard two words about it.

That's right. He never would have admitted it, no, because all of his friends would have. It would have been the same kind of ridicule for him as I would have received from, you know, camera or whoever else. Now, was your guys this property pretty remote? Well, you know, the funny thing is I haven't been up there in years and years, and I just got a Google Earth here last summer to take a look at it, see how much it had changed. And, you know, the big three by seven to ten miles across a dead ends on a lake that doesn't,

and no, it hasn't really changed. Somebody made a small gravel pit part of it, but other than that, it's identical. And when I was living there, our nearest neighbor was about out. And it was just nothing but big woods and swamps in between. It was pretty, it was fairly isolated, yeah. It sounds like it. And I wanted to ask you, so is this what got you into the subject? Is this the point where you decided, I'm going to look into this?

Yeah, absolutely. The first, you know, I didn't even really bring this up. But the first one that I had was so traumatizing. When I got back from going past my buddy Dave, yelling, run like hell and taken off in the, lead. And at that time, it wasn't a plan that I had that, hey, I don't have to outrun this monster. I'll just outrun Dave, and he can catch Dave. No, I wasn't thinking that. Although, what was a good thing to think? Sorry, Dave. Anyway, you know, he didn't know what it was.

He didn't see it, I hope. And if you did, he never mentioned it to me. And I got back to the end of the fire lane when the property line was, and I was just sitting there waiting for him. And all of a sudden, it was just like I couldn't remember anything that happened other than I had been sledding with Dave and I was waiting for Dave to get there and finally Dave showed up and apparently I acted enough like nothing that happened that he just didn't even bring it up

you figured I played a prank on or something and we went back to the house well no two years later we were hanging around with some of our friends and he said yeah you remember that time he went sledding you know back there at the end of the fire lane and I'm like no

yeah yeah you remember there was a big swamp that was all frozen over and we managed to get across it we found that giant sledding hill on the other side and I'm like, no. And then you remember you were sledding down there and you told me to run like hell and boom, it all came back in just a split second. I remembered all of it. And my first reaction was to be just incredibly mad at him because I suddenly realized what

it was that I had saw and I had that memory back again. And it just made me instantly mad that he had brought it back to my mind. And, you know, now I know for a fact that, you know, actually something I didn't ever want to see and would have been really happy never seeing it, never remember. it. Just to that, you know, a lot of people say, well, you've seen a big foot. Why don't you go report it right away? Well, other than the ridicule factor, some of these things are so terrifying.

People just don't even know how to make sense out of it or begin to figure out how to talk to somebody else about it for potentially a long, long time after this is all over again. Some people don't report these sightings for 30, 40, 50, 60 years, you know. And there's a reason for it. It isn't because I saw a cuddly koala bear. is because I saw a freaking monster. Monsters aren't supposed to exist. And that was part of the problem that I had with it,

because adults will always tell you, well, don't be afraid of the dark. Don't be afraid of monsters. There's no such thing as monsters. This is all flashing through my mind when I was looking at it. I'm going, you guys are liars. There's a monster right there. It's broad daylight.

I'm not imagining it. That's not a shadow. That is real. Well, at that age, when you're 10 years old, that shakes up your sense of reality so bad that you start to question everything. thing. It's not only, is there such a thing as monsters, well, yeah, I've confirmed that. I've seen one now. What else are they lying about? So really, the direction I went after I got my

memory back wasn't immediately into going back and looking at all the Bigfoot reports that I can find or trying to take a bit of information on, which, let's face it, the early 70s. It was really hard to get anything. My first reaction was to become a conspiracy theory buff and start looking into everything and trying to figure out where all these conspiracies were and what they were lying to us about. And then after enough years of that, I got back around to the thing that got me involved at the first place, which was Bigfoot. By that point, I had calmed down enough that I could actually go out in the woods again.

I was going out in the woods with friends as long as I wasn't by myself. I felt like it was okay to be out in the woods. And I hadn't even gotten to the point yet where I was going out solo with weapons. Now I'm to the point where I go out solo without weapons in areas that I probably should. But, you know, that was a long process. That took me a long, long time to get over that. And, you know, for you guys that haven't seen one and want to see one, careful what you wish for.

You're right. It's careful what you wish for. And you're right. There is, you know, I've talked to a lot of witnesses. I've had them on the show, you know, where they had an encounter 35, 40 years ago. And this is the first time they're ever talking to anyone about it. And it's a shame it has to be that way. You know, it's a really, and I don't fault the person one bit.

I fault everyone else because it has to be that way because of the ridicule. Because, oh, you're crazy. You didn't see this. you know, some of the things I can tell you through the older I get, it's amazing. Almost the crazier the story you hear, it's almost true. It's almost like, you know, it's almost fact. I know exactly what you're saying because some of them are so simple in Pat. You go, well, you could have made up a story like that just by reading a few Bigfoot books.

And then you get these other ones that are so extravagant and outlandish, it's just hard to even believe them until you start verifying some of the small details. that really aren't available in books and going, well, where'd they get that from then? Yeah, it's a old saying, you know, a fact is stranger than fiction. And you're right. A lot of these encounters, you know, people, I know I'm sure I've had plenty on the show

for listeners out there listening to the show where they're like, oh, come on. Well, you know, there's a lot of things people say, especially in their encounters. Like you said, the small little details that they say, there's no way they could have picked that up from somewhere. either this person saw something.

You believe in Bigfoot, you don't believe in Bigfoot, that's irrelevant. This person saw something. This person experienced something. Tell me about your most recent encounter. Well, this one was kind of less terrifying and more fun for me. Like the first one I eat basically is a way to go. The second one, it was in the dark. All I could choose is a silhouette.

I don't know what it was. To this day, I'll never be able to tell you what sub-variety it was. It's just no way to know. The last one that I saw was interesting to me because it was not a Wendigo. It was what Baron Kuhnobo were referring to as a classic woodbugger, not a Patty type, but the relic hominid type. And for those of you out there that have run across this illustration or have actually heard the lecture or read the book or anything, Danny Vendermini commissioned an artist to do a painting of what he thought of Neanderthal would actually look like,

which is really primitive and ape-like, not like a human with a big nose that you could give a haircut and put a suit on and they can pass for one of us walking down the street. He went, you know, there is no justification for believing that that's what they looked like. The only reason they're doing that is because they're doing the build-up on the skull using the same coordinates

and depth for the clay that they use in forensic recreations of dead people's skulls that they're not sure who it is. They're trying to figure out, let's put a face on the skull so we know who is we're looking for. That's the same method they use of the nandthals. Well, obviously, of course, predisposed to think that it's going to look like a human. They're coming up and something looks like a human. So Danny has these paintings done, and I'm sure you've seen them west.

And other than the cat's eyes, which are completely wrong, and the nose which is off a little bit and they don't use spears. That's a classic southern woodbogger, who I believe if I got that right. and I was not at all sure that they were actually up in this area, which is why I was interesting that I got to see one, because it's like, okay, now I know for sure they're here. And somebody else who was part of my team, got to see a Patty type, fishing in the Blackfoot River December 6th at midnight, 25 degrees.

So if you want to know how resistant to cold they are, there's a good clue. But that just tells me that there's both types in this area, and the same types that you have scattered throughout most of the U.S., the two main sub varieties, your patty types and your wood bookers. Now, this guy, I had been in an area where I knew for sure they were present.

There's a whole lot of stuff that I put up on YouTube and whatnot about the skeleton tree and stick structures and all this stuff that I was finding up at the Canyan. I didn't interview from the local NBC channel about it. I was up there and I had found a sticket that had this really interesting hollowed out area in the middle of it. Now, this is a no camping zone.

So humans ain't supposed to be camping here. So if a human made it, what were they up to and who were they hiding from, and why were they doing it so close to town? Second thing was to go in, there was only one way in and out of the center of this thicket, which was probably 70 by 70 feet, was good size. It was a pine thicket. And it was an S-shaped passageway going in and out of it. And even for a six-foot-tall human, you had to duck a little bit. So whatever was going in and out of there was probably doing it on all fours. Also, inside of this thicket, there was a layer of trees that didn't belong there.

They had been torn out from some other thicket hauled over there and then woven into this thicket to make an additional wall all the way around the inside of it. It would cut off any light from going through from one side of the other. So you could sit in there in the middle of the day, morning, afternoon, didn't matter what the angle of the light was. You could not see in this thicket. So it occurred to me that since they're probably using this area as a funnel point where they're catching. deer at that their sentinel may be using this spot to keep an eye on things and may even be there during the day. So he's there right away when the sun goes down to give him an early idea on who or what might be lurking around there. Well, this area has been no hunting for

decades. And they've even got so far as to post-science that say no BB guns or anything, which, you know, is going excessively far, in my opinion. But got no night camping, no hunting, no shooting. Nobody's around up there a night or anything. And every evening I'm hearing these things making noises and whatnot. So I know that they're further down the canyon than where I'm at, and they're making tree knocks, they're making calls back and forth, they're getting into position, and after a ball,

maybe 45 minutes after dark, you don't hear anything anymore while they're in position now. They're getting ready to hunt, so they're being quiet, so the deer is there for about two and a half weeks. I was walking back up the hill one day, and there's a smaller thicket before I get up to where the big thick it is. The area around it

has all been filled with these, you know, little isolated thickets. I was going past the lower thicket and it was late in the afternoon and the sun was at a nice sharp angle so it was shining right through this little picket and as I'm walking by it I was thinking about uh I can't remember if I heard it on your show or one of the other good ones but they were talking about peridolia and how you can see patterns of light and shadow and think that you're seeing a face or some creature or something when in fact there's really nothing there and your mind is just making it up you know like seeing a face in the clouds or something like that and I'm walking

along and I've got my camera on my little hip holder right on my left hip. I'm going past this thicket and the sun is shining through it and there's this stump sticking up in the middle of the thicket about four feet high and I'm going, well here's a perfect example right here. I should just stop and videotape this because from this angle with the sun going on it, that stump partially in shadow it inside of that little thicket there looks exactly like it's got a face on it and it looks like it's something real. But, you know, it's probably Paradoia, right? You know, because I've been around

here for a couple two and a half weeks now. Yeah, I hadn't actually looked that close at that ticket for the last two and a half weeks. So I reached down, I kind of looked down for a second, and I open up the little container and I start pulling my camera out, and I look back up again, and I notice that the tree stump is now grimacing at

me. At which point I start to go, oh shit, that's not Paradoalia. That's a real woodbogers sitting there pissed off at me, and he's given me the very firm notice that I am not to remove this, whatever it is, I have my hand. I started hearing this kind of a low-growing sound. So I took it, I put it right back in the case, close it up again, acted like I hadn't

seen anything, and just continued walking, which at which point it's occurring to me that the sun's almost about to go down. I'm really the only person that knows that I'm up here in this area doing this research that I ain't in this area. I'm not supposed to be in. and if something happens to me, nobody's getting know about it for quite some time. And I'm the only one up here camping.

I don't have any weapons. And my campsites about 100 feet from where he's sitting in that little thicket. So that definitely made me a little bit paranoid for a few or four hours there until I was really sure that he was just going to ignore me and not come into the thicket and pay me a visit. But, yeah, that moment where you're pretty convinced

just with stump and you're going to start taking film of it and it grievous his aga. that's pretty hard stopping. I would imagine that would scare the hell out of me, you know, when you think it's... Well, it worked. It scared the hell out of me, even with the... You know, what's at all right? It's still like, damn!

That was unexpected. I guess I'm not getting that video on Paradoralia right now. Yeah, no kidding. No kidding. You know, what's interesting is, is from doing this show, I've talked to a lot of witnesses through the East Coast, down south, almost every state in the Union. I can tell it, well, except for Hawaii. But for the most part, you'll get people's descriptions of what these creatures look like.

And the interesting part, when you start to listen to descriptions, generally speaking, everyone's describing the same thing, except for some small details. But for the most part, everyone's describing the same thing. I'll give an example, like on the East Coast. people are describing, and I know with like my previous co-host, he would refuse to talk to anyone that said it looked human. But what I started finding is a lot of people on the East Coast,

they will say, especially Northeast, they will say it looked human. The thing looked human. I'm telling you, take away the body, just to face, it looked human. And then you start to talk to people in the, like Texas, Missouri, Mississippi, and a lot of witnesses will say, well, it looked like a chimp. It looked like a chimpanzee in the face. Human nose, but basically it looked like a chimp.

You get up here in the Pacific Northwest, people will say it looked more like an ape, or the Patterson Gimlin one. That's basically what they saw. And you mentioned it a couple times. You talked about these subspecies. Do you want to go into that? What's your take on these subspecies? Well, really, I think there's two. two main species,

the ones that you just got done talking about, are really evenly distributed all over the place. And I think the main reason for that is because probably to a lesser extent, organization and hardiness, and to a greater extent, they're omnivores. They can take more advantage of what's around them

in their environment than their competitors can. And they do especially a lot better down in the southern areas where there's less winter because that means that there's more growing season, there's more vegetable matter available for them. You know, they've got the teeth for it, like the Woodbigger types, they've got flat teeth, basically.

They've got a human-looking teeth. The patty types, you get some descriptions where somebody actually notices that they have upper canines. They're not very big. So, again, both of these varieties, and, you know, I'm assuming the woodbougars probably eat quite a bit of meat, but they don't have the teeth for it. They're onyars like we are. And so they can take really good advantage of their environment. Now, the secondary thing may be that they travel in bigger groups, they're better organized.

Then you've got the other weird wild card down there is down in Florida, and some of the big swamps connected to it where you get these reports of something that they call a skunkake, which may or may not be a woodbigger or a patty type that's being misidentified. Now, one of the interesting theories that I've come across recently, and I lived down in Florida for two and a half four years, in the Tampa Bay Area. Tampa at one point was a pirate base. Way before this was a country. There were pirates that were using that for a base.

And a lot of these pirate captains were all over the place, including Africa, and they would get exotic pets, and some of them had apes for exotic pets. Now, let's just say that one or more of these didn't get loose at some point, just go native and figure out a way to make a living there, and they've had a breeding population ever since. So it's been there since we've known anything about the area, but that doesn't mean it was indigenous. this would tend to cover things where myaca skunkate, it looks like some kind of a weird orangutan, or the video where they've got, did I see a skunk ape, and it looks like a gorilla sort of squatting down, tearing bark off from a tree. Well, neither one of these things really looks like a classical Bigfoot. The second one does more.

But it makes me wonder if there's actually a pungit of some kind running around down there. And I know Bearer doesn't like this idea, and mainly because he's been in all these states, and he's never found a track that's got the thumb-like fingers sticking out the side. They all are like classic bigfoot-looking tracks of different sizes, and that would be what you'd expect with a patty or a woodburger type, sort of human-looking foot. Now, if there's actually something that's related to the ponschitz down there, you would expect just the opposite,

that it would have this thumb-like projections sticking out from its foot in an angle. And, you know, if you look at tracks from all the great apes and monkeys, they all pretty much do have a foot like that. They're very few of them that have a foot that looks any different, from that. So there's your potential. Third, other two suspects would be what we were talking about earlier, the Wendigo. And then what I think is probably a sub-variety, maybe even more primitive version of that,

the Gugly, that the Indians that had those things in their territory, these things are way beyond being a bogeyman. It was like certain deaths run into one of these things. And they still have that reputation to this day. I had someone that I know and trust very, very well that most, you know, a lot about some of these other varieties that most people don't. And basically said, if you see one of these things in the woods, make sure it doesn't see you. If it sees you before you see it, well, good luck.

You're probably never going to be seen again. And they will try and attack, and they will try and eat you, which is one of the reasons that I think that if they are even in the lower 48, where they're in very isolated areas, they stay away from humans. They probably give us the benefit of the dollar if we're stupid enough to be wandering through their territory, they just figure, well, humans are dumb, they don't know what the warning markers are. And I sort of think most bigfoot have that opinion. We're just stupid and clueless. We don't know what those markers are that they're putting up. And so, you know, we sort of get the benefit of the doubt

where a different competing variety wouldn't. Now there's a potential number six here, too, which is brought up in the book, True Giants, which Gigantapithecus still alive by Mark A. Hall and Nord Pullman, where they started going back through the archives and pulling out, again, the same thing we were talking about earlier where you get these reports that don't match. And you go, this isn't a Bigfoot report? Is this a hoax? Is this a lie? Is somebody making up a story?

Did they just misidentify something? You don't know. And then you start comparing these reports to each other, and they all match up with each other. And then you start going, well, wait a minute, maybe there's something out here other than Bigfoot that we don't know about. And this one is so far out there. I'm not sure it even is a sub-varity of Bigfoot. It has the same general description as being, you know, hominid.

bipedal covered with lung, but the sizes on these things are tremendous. They talk about anywhere between 10 and 20 feet tall. There's been at least three sightings that I know of by eyewitnesses, and in each case, more than one person in the group seeing them. They claim that they saw ones around 18 feet tall. There was one siting right here in Bel Creek, Montana, where three airmen and two of the kids that they had with them out camping got chased off the mountain by a 15-foot one, and they swore to it under oath.

if you're an airman, that's perhaps not the smartest thing to do career-wise. But they went ahead and did it anyway, which tells you, you know, are they going to make up a story like that just to hoax somebody with their career on the line? Seriously doubt it. And these ones I call Mountain Giants. The first person that noticed that these things even might exist is one of our superheroes of Bigfooting John Green, who basically said, look, I've been getting these reports for a long time now, and there's this category that doesn't fit with Bigfoot.

I think there's something else out there. And one of the hallmarks for this critter is that they have four-toe tracks. Their tracks appear to show only four toes that are all roughly the same size. And I just passed this off as well. There's some information on it. This book is kind of thin. You know, I mean, they've got an interesting theory here, but until I see some more information that collaborates this,

you know, we just leave it on the back burner as a possibility. Well, one of the people I was just accidentally met up with and ended up being a roommate with, and after I was living with him for about two months, he realized I was into Bigfoot. That's kind of hard to avoid letting them know. And he believed Bigfoot was real, and in fact he said,

I've actually taken pictures of Bigfoot tracks, and I'm like, well, cool, let me take a look at him. He showed me the track pictures that he had on his computer, and I right away went, and they only have four toes. He's like, what? Well, you're right. There is only four toes on that.

Well, maybe it's not a Bigfoot then. What is that? Now, dude, you've got probably the best pictures. of mountain giant tracks that anyone has ever taken. So he subsequently sent those pictures to Dr. Meldrum to take a look at and he hasn't gotten back to us with any results or anything on it yet. I'm sure he's going to be cogitating on those for a while. But what it appears is that these things will generally use their four almost the same size

and length toes for most of their walking. And they do actually have a fifth toe. They don't usually bring it down to the ground. and when they're going across uneven terrain or something, then the fifth toe comes into play. Yeah, the tracks is another way to distinguish their tracks is that they'll run anywhere from 7 inches up to 36 inches. And 36 inches is just way outside the parameters

of anything that could stick. And the other thing is the 50 to 100% rule, which is the length of the track. You take 50% of that length, and that's how wide the track's going to be. And all these things hold true for all the track lines that have been found. So at that point it makes you start going, well, no, we're finding individuals of a completely

different species because all these other things are holding true all the time, even though variation in size we're finding younger and older individuals is what we're running into here. And then I started looking at, okay, if these things are real, that means there has to have been sightings of them other than just modern ones. And it also means that the natives had to know about them because something that big living around the area, there's no way the natives couldn't have known about it. Well, I started looking in all the areas where their tribes that were living in mountainous areas. And surprise, surprise, surprise.

They all had an extra name for Bigfoot. And they translated into really unappealing things like crushers of men and eaters of people. So they weren't talking about regular old hairy man stick woman. A completely different thing. And there's, in fact, a couple tribes don't even have a name for Bigfoot. They've got a name for some big monstrous thing that we assume they're talking about Bigfoot. They might not necessarily be it. a mountain giant or something along those lines.

And I've also got it on pretty good evidence from the folks that I've talked to that are in the know up there that these things are still around Alaska and, in fact, even know some of the areas that they live in over the valley from Lake I Leon, it's supposed to be one of the areas where they live, and the locals won't go there. And they will do their best to try and talk to you out of going there if you decide to be a bonehead and decide that that would be a fun thing to do because they, they say, say that you need to leave them alone, and if you don't leave them alone, they'll come past Ross. So they've got that sort of carrot stick attitude about these things that they want

them to be left alone. Yeah, it's interesting. You bring up the mountain giants. You know, as you read some of the old native tales, I've often wondered about that. I've read through a lot of things, and you stopped to read it, and you're like, I don't think they're talking about Sasquatch here. I think they're talking about something else. Yeah, exactly. It fits the same, you know, they're talking about a large giant creature, but if you read into what they're talking about, it's something completely different than Sasquatch. Yeah, the behavior of it is so much different than what we expect from a Bigfoot or Sasquatch,

which is generally, you know, a shy retiring creature, live and let live. I'll stay away from you, you stay away from me. Oh, you're going that way. I'll go the opposite direction. No, these things will kill you and will eat you. and they're well known amongst the tribes that have any name for them. That's exactly what they would do. They were man-eaters.

There was no yes, hands or butts about it. Nothing good about these things. Super dangerous. You know, some of them are so tall, they basically say, all they had to do is stand still and you'd mistake their legs for tree trucks. You wouldn't even notice they were standing there. Yeah, and it's interesting. Like I said, sometimes fact is stranger than fiction.

One of the things I want to ask you about was the dog man. We call it dog man, but a lot of the locals don't call it dogman. they call it something else. And unless you know what the local tribe calls it, you have no idea what they're talking about. But a lot of these tribes will talk about these dogman-type creatures. And none of them, I've never heard anything good said about the dog-man creature. Every single tribal elder I've talked to, they say, stay away from it.

There's nothing, it's evil, there's nothing good about it, and it will kill you, period. Yeah, that's one of the things it gets, you know, they fit in right with that category. the one to gogly and the mountain giants and that their characterization is 100% negative and vicious and there aren't any reports of dog man sitting down and playing pinnuckle with somebody that he ran across the woods or anything

you know they'll try and eat you sort of thing and uh... I you know I have a hard time as somebody that really believes that science uh is efficacious and a great way to go about approaching finding out information about things and believing that they're by people

old canids running around breeding with each other. It's just really, really tough. It doesn't make sense from a naturalistic standpoint. Why would they be on their hind legs? They can run faster on force. What's the advantage of being able to do this sort of thing? You know, even though they all had names for them and stuff, I have trouble believing that it's a natural creature.

I mean, I could be totally wrong. It could be a natural creature. But for me, it seems more like you're getting like basically three things here. one is skin lockers. Another one is misidentification of gugglies, which could be possible. It was a third one, too. And that's okay.

It seems very unnatural. You know, I think with a lot of the dogman, quote-unquote dogman reports I've taken, one thing that I found through probably a dozen witnesses is consistency. And none of these people know each other, and they're very consistent on what they saw, very, very consistent.

And they'll describe it running off on two legs very, very fast. And I'll ask him, you know, what did the head look like? And they'll say, well, I guess like a German shepherd. It had the body of an ape, but it had the head of a German shepherd. And it, you know, I had one guy who's a professional game hunter who was doing a call of a wounded animal trying to bring in the wolves. He was trying to bring in the mountain lions. He was trying to bring in the major predators. And he said that he saw the biggest wolf he'd ever seen a woman.

in his life coming down this hill. And as he looked through it through the scope, it stood up on two legs and he realized it wasn't a wolf. But it kind of had the head of a wolf. And he said it looked right at him and showed its teeth and then took off running on two legs. I mean, this sounds like crazy talk. But I mean, I've heard it so many times by witnesses that don't know each other that

are explaining to me what they're seeing and they're very, very consistent. It's so consistent. It's unbelievable. That's the same thing that made me think there's something to this mountain giant thing. You start seeing these reports and they're so consistent with each other. It's like, well, these guys don't know each other. These reports are 100 years apart. How can they come up with us?

You know, as far as that goes, I think there is a way to tell what you're looking at in the field. And if it's a dog man, or if it's a guggly. And if it's got a head like a dog, look at its ears. Does it have long ears or short ears? It's got short ears. It's probably a guggly. If it's got long ears, probably a dogman. You can see its whole body, if you look at its lower legs.

If it's a bipedal canid, it's got that really long ankle and foot structure that makes it look like it's got three joints and its lower legs. If it's got an ape-like lower body and legs like a human, it's a gugly. Yeah, and that's, to be honest with you, I think every dogman report I've ever taken, that's what they've said. Is it kind of, it looked like an ape's body with the dog's head? Yeah. That probably misidentified guggis, but honestly, Wes, I've heard three or four really, really believable reports on dogmen where they got to see the whole body of the thing, and it had the triple joints in the rear legs, and it had the long ears, the whole thing. So, again, that's, you know, that that can't be misidentification. So did they see a skin walker?

Or are these things demons that can shape-shift? Is it picking your mind going, what's the scariest image of this human has in its mind? Well, I'll make myself look like that. I'll look like a were a werewell. Well, and it goes back to the mountain giants you were talking about, and I don't want to hold you up on height, but one final comment I wanted to make, and I posted it to the blog about this Afghanistan nephalum thing,

which the nephalum fascinate me. But I was like, I was like, okay, well, I'll hear what this guy has to say. And it was Steve Quill. He was on coast to coast, and he had brought this pilot on, and they had shot this giant, that was inside of a cave and looked like it had been feeding on people.

And the guy said it had six fingers and six toes, and they had to load it up on a pallet. And he said the pallet was like a nine by seven, and they had to put it in the fetal position for this thing to actually fit. And lay it point to point on the palate, too. Yeah. Yeah, did you hear that already?

Oh, yeah, yeah. I actually had that posted on my B-site for quite a while was the pinned post. That was actually a really interesting one, because it was the second time they had a go round on this and the second time they actually had somebody else that was there that came on that verified it. It wasn't just the word of one

person. And the original report they actually talked about what and who he had been killing and eating and it was Marines. Yeah, that's what I got. Which is why the military got involved and went, yeah, that's it. We're getting rid of this thing. And that's terrifying, man. That scares a hell out of me. You know what I mean? It just

it honestly scares a hell out of me. You hear stuff like that and you wonder what the hell is going on. What else is You know, you've seen Sasquatch, I've seen Sasquatch. And probably the third or fourth question beyond what the hell is it? What are these things is what else is out there that we don't know about? What else is out there that we brush off as fiction?

That may not be fiction. You know, may not be, you get up, you go to work, you work, you're 8 to 5, you come home, you eat dinner, you do the same thing over and over and over and over again. But you don't realize that the world is a lot weirder. Once you start to get out there, you start to realize how weird this world is. Yeah, it is. You know, you talk about Dogman, you talk about, and I know a lot of people are probably rolling their eyes right now, but I'm telling you right now, fact is stranger than fiction. Sometimes when you hear a crazy, crazy, crazy, crazy story, people may not be lying to you.

The truth sometimes is terrifying, you know, with what's going on out there. Yeah, sometimes I think a lot of people probably are better off not. knowing what's actually out there because it might not be able to deal with it very well or have the gut reaction of, well, I'm just going to stay in my house and become an avid endorsement from now on. I'm never going out again. I'll store to food and work for my computer. You know, one thing I would like to mention to folks is that you're ever out in the woods and weird things are happening and you're seeing stick structures and you're wondering what kind it is that you might potentially have around you.

tree knocks are used for signaling hunting. Don't do tree knocks. It's going to make any of the violent types think that there's competing Bigfoot from another sub-variety in their area, and they're not going to be happy about it. Don't bother trying to do whoops to see if these other ones are wrong because they won't respond to them. They don't use that sort of vocalization. All they do is copy, mimic other real animals, and they do it, with startling efficiency and accuracy.

The only way you can really tell them apart is that they will do a much louder version of it. And the only way you can tell that is if you're near enough due to the difference in volume level. What they used to communicate with each other is a very high-pitched shrill whistle. So if you hear that out in the woods, and you're fairly certain there are no other humans around.

It might be a good time to leave. Yeah, I tend to agree. And also be careful what you wish for it because it might just happen. Well, tell you what, I take that axiome into a cross. out every time I start thinking that I'd like to see a mountain giant. And I go, no, no, no, really? Maybe I, finding some tracks would be fun. I just find some more tracks.

That'd be good enough. Yeah, I hear you. Well, Duke, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate it. I've enjoyed you being on the show. I've enjoyed having you on and just going over all of your experiences. I know we could talk for another, you know, 10, 12 hours on all the different things. And I got a million questions to ask you, but I don't want to.

burn up your night. So thank you so much for being. Well, hey, if you'd ever like to have me back again, West, I'd be more than happy to come back on your show. I love your show. It's one of the best ones out there. You folks listening to this now, this is one of the best ones out there to get real information on this show. Keep paying attention. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. Very welcome, West. It's been a pleasure talking with you. Just have a great time and everybody out there be safe and take care of each other with. Thanks, Duke. I appreciate being on. I want to apologize to see Kay.

We ran out of time tonight. I guess I shouldn't have milked that intro. But I will be having you on midweek, I promise. I want to thank all the listeners for taking the time to listen tonight. And remember, if you've had an encounter and you'd like to be on the show, shoot me an email. West at Sasquotronicles.com. I'll see everyone next time.

Have a great night. The country faster than the coronavirus and wagering week is your antidote. I'm Tom Barton. and I'm a veteran sports analyst and respected sports handicapper who will help build ESPN's brand. I've been recognized and awarded by Pro Football Weekly and Gaming Today magazine as the honest handicapper. Let the other guys give you the same old boring sports talk with the same tired storylines. We'll give it to you straight here every Friday on wagering week. Don't gamble with other podcasts. Let SportsGarten Network's Wagering Week help your bottom line.