Sasquatch Chronicles - Show Notes with Shannon-Lon Strickler and Sean Forker

Episode Date: March 3, 2015

Show notes with Shannon welcomes, Lon Strickler and Sean Forker of Arcane Radio. Lon is a cryptid researcher who writes and mentors on a variety of Fortean subjects. In 1981, Lon had an encounter near Skykesville, MD, and since 2005 has produced the very popular and informative, Phantoms and Monsters blog. He has been on many radio broadcasts and Destination America's Monster's and Mysteries in America show. Sean is also a Fortean Investigator, with a specialized focus in Bigfoot/ Sasquatch Research. He is the Founder and Director of the Keystone Bigfoot Project, a research group that collects data across the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania regarding Bigfoot Sightings and Encounters (Historical and New). Sean sits on the Board of Directors for the national organization, the Alliance of Independent Bigfoot Researchers, and is the Associate Director for the PA Bigfoot Society.  Listen to Arcane Radio HERE or on your favorite Podcatcher. Check out Lon's Phantoms and Monster's blog HERE Learn more about Sean and his projects HERE

Welcome to Show Notes with Shannon Legrow. Give her a call at 646-716-8-7991. Good evening and welcome to Show Notes with Shannon. Now, with Will being under the weather, he has rescheduled into the abyss for a tentative upcoming Wednesday night broadcast for our members. So from everyone, Will, we hope you are feeling better. I wanted to thank Brandon for the nice chat today on All Things Sasquatch and also a quick hello to Jake Keating who is 14 and listens from Ireland. Hope you're having a great day, Jake, and thanks so much for being apart, bud. We really appreciate it.

Now, I don't want to keep our guests waiting too long, but I do have Dave Hallett on with me tonight. finally and I think it's only fair for him to get a slight grilling and maybe a couple of questions so you guys get to know him better so I would like to say hello and good evening to Dave Shannon what's going on thanks for having me well thank you sir thank you for joining me I'm glad that you are feeling better it's certainly going around right now yeah it was crazy the last few weeks have been a little insane so bear with me for my voice folks but we'll get there yeah I don't think it was an exaggeration to say that you, you know, sound like the guy from, you know, Scrooge, that was my analogy. And it was, it was spot on, don't you think? It was spot on 10,000

percent. Yep. Now, first of all, Dave, I know that a lot of your fans, because you do produce, you know, a separate show, will you continue to produce Bigfoot Ground Zero to some capacity? That is the big question. Yeah, I think so. I think maybe, you know, once a month or so, whenever the mood strikes me. But yeah, for the most part, I'm here. But yeah, it was a good run. I'm just kind of glad to be working with you guys. So I guess the answer is very few and far between.

Well, we appreciate you being here. We're very excited to have you on board. Now, my second question before I introduce our guest for tonight is, do you have any desire at all to see a fat quaff qua? You know, you told me you were going to ask me that question. And I thought to myself, of course I do. But at the same time, it's like to what degree. So I'm not very brave.

So maybe from a helicopter at about 1,000 feet. I just want to know the thing exists, you know? I know, I know. But absolutely 100%. But like I said, I'm not sure I want to be up close and personal. And as Will says, have that underwear changing moment. Yeah. But then again, from a helicopter at 10,000 feet,

are you going to know it's a fast watch or it could be a guy in a big puffy coat and big weather pants, you know? Listen, it'll be as good as the Patty film, so. Yeah. You got to give the Patty film a little credit, though. I know, I know. All right. So, Dave, tonight we have on with us, Lawn Strickler and Sean Forker. And Lawn Strickler is a cryptid researcher who writes and mentors on a variety of 14 subjects.

In 1981, Lawn had an encounter near Sykesville, Maryland. And since 2005 has produced the Phantom. and Monsters Blog, has been on radio broadcast and had his story featured on Monsters and Mysteries in America. Sean Forker is a Fortean investigator with a specialized focus in Sasquatch Research. He is the founder of the Keystone Bigfoot Project, is one of the directors for the Alliance of Independent Bigfoot Researchers, and also the Pennsylvania Bigfoot Society. Together, Lon and Sean produced Arcane Radio.

Good evening, gentlemen. Hello. Hello there. Thank you guys so much for being on with us. Yeah, thanks for being on. Appreciate it. Our pleasure. Now, you guys as a team bring a lot of experience to the table.

And I know that we want to hear both of your own personal, you know, experiences. But what I wanted to start out with, possibly if we could, because of the amount of reports, you guys are and research that you do, I wanted to start out with asking maybe about recent reports possibly from your area, especially with this interesting weather. And we're all kind of in the same, we're all on the east side of the country, which has gotten hammered with, you know, interesting weather. And I was wondering if you guys had any recent reports from your areas. Well, you know, well, I haven't received much of anything around this area, just maybe old

reports, but since you do get the reports directly, I think you could probably answer some more better. Well, it depends on where they come from. Now, the Pennsylvania Bigfoot Society has gotten several reports. I want to say several reports a month, but most of them don't turn out to be anything, but somebody messing around at a keyboard. But I would say average about two reports a month from various parts of the states, predominantly the Fayette County area, and that's been a big area.

the last several years for Bigfoot sightings in PA. But there's been a lot of attention in that area, too, on television and just from different folks putting on presentations, that's a concentration of researchers and a lot of media focus in that vicinity in PA. But the Keystone Bigfoot Project, the other organization that we run here in Pennsylvania, we've gotten probably four reports since December, and one of them actually pretty close to my own backyard,

about 10 minutes from my house, which was pretty exciting. They just came in today. So it's pretty fresh. I haven't had a chance to really look into it too much, but I'll be investigating it later this week. So, I mean, they've been coming in pretty regularly, but, you know, like I said, the quality is something that's really yet to be determined

until all the official reports are back in from the different people investigating them. Now, Sean, since you went ahead and brought up the Keystone Big Heart Project, I find this extremely interesting. Will you let people know what that is and what you guys are looking for? So the Keystone Bigfoot Project, it's kind of a, it's an organization, but it's a project on its own. We're really affiliated with the Pennsylvania Bigfoot Society,

but we're collecting citing reports and historical newspaper articles and newsclippings, anything we can find in compiling it all into a database and mapping the locations of citing reports and as close as we can get to see if there's any patterns. So we want to check over periods of time, different seasons, different moon phases. There's going to be a lot of points of interest that you're going to be able to, ultimately a searchable database that anybody can go to for Pennsylvania Bigfoot sighting and kind of look at the data over time to see if there's patterns emerging or if there's migratory routes, you know,

going to be able to answer a lot of questions that we don't have answers to right now. Sean, is that, this is Dave, is there, is that what you're calling GIS data? So plodible data that's more of kind of predictive modeling, that sort of thing too. So you can kind of take the data. Hopefully, we got a guy in the group that's far smarter than this stuff than I am. And right now, I'm just, it's about six or seven of us right now that are going through and just kind of collecting all the reports. And we're going to hand them off to our good friend, Les Zincovig, see what we can do. but actually plotting it on a map and getting it, you know, GPS locatable if possible.

As much information as we can, Dave, to narrow it down to the location, specific times, and that sort of thing. No, I think that's great. There's groups out there, you know, like yours, that are starting to kind of open up to the fact that not only is there a siting, but there's barometric pressure, there's weather changes, there's certain things that are growing in that area at the time. And if you can start compiling that data, then you can kind of overlay those things. And I just, I firmly believe the research that you're doing now, that sort of thing, down the road is going to lead to sightings because you're going to be able to predict certain characteristics of the environment and the sightings and kind of predict, like you said,

patterns in migration and that sort of thing. And I think your chances of the siding might go up, you know? Well, that's what we're hoping for. You know, right now, Bigfoot research is kind of a crapshoot. You deploy an area that's had a recent siting or sometimes the sightings you get, like occasionally we get a sighting that's 20, 25 years old. So you're going to go to that area and investigate what? I mean, there's a good chance that, you know, geographically, that area doesn't even look the same. And these things change over time, especially with, you know, urban sprawl and development going on.

The areas aren't the same anymore in 2025 years. So what are you really going to investigate? So if we can look at the data over time and, you know, barometric pressure and stuff, stuff is I catalog, you know, weather and moonface in my own personal notebook and we're out in the field. I've been doing that for since I was 17. So, I mean, it's stuff that we looked at too, but, you know, you need to network with people and partner with people that are smarter than you, at least in my case, smarter than me, you know, to put this information to something searchable that we can get something from.

No, I don't have you. Go ahead, sorry. Sorry, Dave. Go ahead. No, no, I wasn't, I was just going to say that that's, I absolutely applaud that because the more that I talk to people who are out there actually researching, the more I talk to folks like yourself who have been using a notebook to take notes on certain things all these years,

again, I just think what you're doing, and as you network with other people, this information is going to get out there. And I just, you know, in the microcosm of things, how long we've actually been looking for Bigfoot in the thousands of years that Sasquatch has been there. It's such a small time, but I think we're going to make great strides over the next few years.

So that's it, Shannon. I'm sorry. I just wanted to get that out. No, you're fine. Yeah, I hope we do make some strides in the, And in fact, to piggyback on that, Sean, have you guys seen any patterns yet that are emerging that maybe you can talk about? Moon phases is something that I'm really into right now. You know, is there something to be said about a new moon when there's less cover, less light,

and these creatures can move unseen, you know, with a lot less resistance to, you know, potentially having human contact, contact with, you know, other things, hunting seasons, those sort of things. Moon cycles are pretty interesting. starting to see not only some movement during new moon phases, but also full moons. So, I mean, there's something to be said about that. There's not a whole lot I can comment on it because it's not really fleshed out. But it's just interesting to see, you know, if the folks, when they're reporting these sightings, and if their information they're reporting is accurate, you know, that they're

certain that it happened on this day at this time, you know, and they're not misplacing dates. That's a lot more telling. but some of our own experiences when we've been out in the woods, you know, hearing strange sounds, you know, possible sighting that we had last year, and then an encounter we had in 2012, 2012, what years of 2012? I mean, it was pretty remarkable to see these things.

And to, it's just amazing. This research is by far the most favorite thing I do. Yeah, I know you guys are, both of you are extremely busy and going off that lawn. I wanted to ask you with the Phantoms and Monsters blog running as long as it has, how many Sasquatch related reports do you get versus other anomalous activity? Well, when I first started out, I think it was more Bigfoot. Of course, you know, actual spiritual and other paranormal, supernatural. type settings, probably.

I get more of those than anything else. But I'd say when I first started out, as far as cryptozoology or cryptids, I'd say with Bigfoot. But, you know, there's a lot of those stuff coming in now. I think people are opening up to the possibility that what they saw may have actually been seen and they're not afraid to report it.

So I'd say Bigfoot is probably maybe 30 to 40%. Do you guys think that with, the with the TV shows, no matter how, I mean, not all of them, we can give any credit to, right? But with some of these TV shows, do you think it's at least giving some credence and helping people to come forward and tell their encounters and maybe be a little bit more comfortable, at least bring awareness to it? Yeah, I think so. You know, like I said, we can pass judgment on the quality and, you know, exactly how it's produced.

but all in all, I think it opens people's minds up, you know, and gets people thinking about things maybe they had seen and weren't more afraid to report. And I think it kind of nudges them to go ahead and look on the Internet and say, hey, you know, maybe I'll find some place where I can report this. And I tell you, I think a lot of the sightings that have been reported to me are because people, you know, you know, and it's a lot of older reports. So it's people that decided, well, I'm going to go ahead.

and go ahead and report it. Sean, that's an interesting point. Do you find the same thing that a lot of the reports you get, or at least a certain portion of them, are people that have waited 20 years to come forward and tell their story? I do. And when you look at the whole big foot and pop culture thing right now, it's on TV, it's commercials, again, it's everywhere.

It kind of, though we may not like the quality of the programming out there all the time. I mean, there are shows. I mean, you know, you take flack if you, I met up with Trapper John for Mountain Monsters at a convention with Craig Woolheater. And we had a good time. He's a nice guy, you know. Do I like his television show for entertainment? Yeah, for research. No.

I mean, there's a lot of safety issues I have with it. But as a whole, I mean, it brings a certain amount of credibility. It's on TV now. People don't laugh anymore. You know, my wife's not embarrassed to tell people that her husband's a bigfoot guy, you know. There's a little bit of. credibility we have now. And you don't have to hide your face. You're not afraid to take interviews. You're not afraid to talk about it publicly because people are talking about it now.

It's a frame of reference. You have company over and they see that finding Bigfoot, you know, advertisement on television and, you know, it's a conversation point. I think it's made people a lot more comfortable to come out and talk people because people know that there are folks out there now that genuinely take the subject seriously. They're not going to be made fun of. And, you know, like I said, regardless if we like the programming or the quality of it, it's a great outlet. It is entertainment. I think we have to realize that first and foremost, but there's some certain gems that come out of that. And if it's making people comfortable talking about something that was life-changing for them, why the heck not?

Well, then that begs the question for me, if you don't mind me jumping in here really quick, is when you folks are talking to somebody who has potentially had a sighting, right? everybody this point in our Sasquatch lives knows how to tell the story, you know, from when you saw it to what it did and how you felt afterwards. How do you flesh out when somebody is not being honest with you? And I'm sure after having done so much research for so long, it probably pisses you off to some point. But how do you kind of flesh that out quickly? Some things are just too perfect. You know, everything lines up.

And when you have like nine million websites dedicated to Bigfoot and, blogs and you can get it on the television you know there are just things that are so out there you know tree knocking screams uh you know a lot of those at least for me a lot of the signs that start out with those things are usually pretty easy to flesh out i've heard these sounds for weeks i went out in the woods and something ran across in front of me you know well that's great i've heard sounds many times and i've walked out in the woods and nothing's ever run for you know in front of me so you're one lucky individual there are certain things to me that are just too perfect to don't add up a lot of times if you're I like to

physically meet with people because I'm a pretty good you know barometer for BS you know I'm a sales manager so I deal with it every day I see people that you know the body language just doesn't add up you know their their dance doesn't add up to their to their music and it's not as hard as as you think it is and there are some people that are truly traumatized by what they saw and you can just tell by how they're telling the story the you know the genuineness of what they're telling you that these folks actually believe that's what they saw or that's what they experienced. And it's life-changing too because you listen to these folks and, you know, somebody would be telling you this story and you can hear their shakingness and their voice

and they're adamant about what they saw and you see those little micro expressions of their they get ticked off because they think nobody believes them. You hear that one, you hear that one story out of a hundred and then you know you're right on the right path. That's the one. It's like, man, Sasswatch does exist because this person would not be that way. Does that make sense? Yeah, I just interviewed a guy last fall who works for a department and the state, a department of the state in Pennsylvania. I don't want to reveal that because it could be potentially damaging for him.

But the way he told his story and the fact that, you know, he was honest about his character, who he is, what he does, you know, he's got an awful lot to lose by telling a story, you know, like this. and the way he told the story and, you know, the fact that he still didn't really believe himself when he saw what he saw, and it took him a while to come to terms with it, and the way he just interacted with all of us was just to me, the most genuine witness I've ever interviewed in my life. He was incredible. Yeah, it was just absolutely incredible.

I had a question for both of you, actually. Are there any cases that stick out in your mind as far as odd behavior reported by the Sasquatch or an extra aggressive encounter? I know it's kind of off the cuff, but I was just wondering if anything sticks out in you guys' mind that you could share. Lon, you got anything on that? You know, I'm sitting here trying to think, and, you know, every report's got its own little nuance to it. I really can't think of anything other than, you know, occasionally I will get, and which I think of the more interesting reports where a supposed Sasquatch will actually

notice the witnesses. That's been something that I think has been kind of new to the citing reports of the last several years where you know when somebody say somebody's in the woods and they see this thing and it's looking back at them and they can tell that it is surprised

that the person the lie witness notices them. That's something different now. That's something that I earlier hadn't been getting. You know, it's something that the Sasquatch reacts to the person

looking at them. I get more of those type of descriptions and reports now than I ever did. And I'm just, you know, it's one of those things why you wonder why that's going on like that. I don't know if SAS squads are, you know, just take it for granted that they can't be seen or whatever, but it just seems that they act more surprised. Yeah, we actually had a man that called in and he had an encounter when he was around the age of 12 and he finally felt comfortable enough to talk about it. And this is in a situation where it couldn't have been anything else and it stood up from behind a large boulder. And he noted that it actually took the long way to get back into the forest because it, I mean, it stood up and it looked straight at him.

But it decided to, instead of retreating the quickest direction, just like he, said, it just, I was like, okay, well, I've been spotted, like kind of an, a no-crap moment for it. But then it decided to take the long way to go back into, into the woodline. So that was interesting. Well, you got to wonder that's probably, I think that's probably the one aspect of the reports that I have been getting in recent years that, you know, that kind of stands out to me. Well, I wonder if it's more of a function of maybe civilization encroachment.

and maybe Sasquatch are more exposed to, and I'm kind of just throwing this out there for discussion, but more exposed to people, you know, over the years, however long that is. And, you know, what's happening is they are less afraid to kind of, they kind of know what people are about now, maybe a little bit less afraid. If they're found out they're not as quick to take the short way to go away, as you heard about this last story. What do you guys think of that? Is it more of like an interaction thing more frequent?

or am I kind of way out to launch on that? No, I think there's something to be said for what you're talking about, Dave. But also, you know, the subject was a 12-year-old boy who saw this thing get up? You know, was that really a perceived threat? Was there any level of danger to the creatures? So, I mean, these things know they're big. A 12-year-old boy really that much of a threat to what he's going to be. And maybe it was just kind of a, you know, you're smaller than I am.

I don't really care that you see. me, I'm going to go away now, but I'm going to do it at my pace. But are we conditioning them? It's possible. I mean, we're starting to hear more stories. You know, one thing I always said, and I don't want to take this on a tangent on you. I'm sorry, is habituation, right? We're starting to hear a lot of stories of habituation now.

And I think there's a lot of stories out there. I think most of them are not true habituation, but I think there are some rare cases where there's something going on. And that phenomena, that interaction is really, really, really. genuine and you know are you know because we're starting to go off into these places and we're starting to become more and more frequented they have less the fear if they're interacting with these these families or these individuals on a you know daily basis and they haven't tried to harm them in any any way you know again there's no perceived threat so why would that you know i don't

understand why some people have a hard time thinking that that's you know that's an issue we're not there enough you know to condition most researchers the areas they go to aren't there enough in terms of time to condition themselves to that environment. They really interact with anything on a long-term basis. And, you know, some of these folks live in pretty remote areas. They live there. You know, they spend most of their time there. And some of these situations are really genuine, and there are a lot that aren't.

But I think there's something to be said about that, too. I think we have to change some of our outlooks as a research community on habituation and really, you know, really put maybe some credence into that. Well, it's funny that you say that because you're both, you know, well-respected researchers. You've done your research. You know what you're talking about. For you to even go out on this program and put yourself out there even saying that habituation might be something that actually goes on, that's a big deal to me because that tells me that mainstream thinking, not that you're mainstream, more cutting edge, is the thought process is changing. And it's like I say with Bigfoot, right?

So there's 10,000 sightings out there, and I'll just give a rough number. If only one of those is right and real, then Sasquatch exists. So as far as... Right, exactly, exactly. And I didn't mean to take his quote. I apologize for that. But what I... Not on purpose.

But what I'm saying with habituation is I've got to believe, and even if it's only a handful of people out of thousands out there who might be bringing clans of Sasquatch into their yard or into their property and are feeding them and interacting, I wouldn't be blown over. I wouldn't be bowled over by that. Nothing surprises me anymore. Do you know what I mean? Well, I'm probably going to take some flack on that from some of my friends that, you know, that are in the research community because I've been in this a long time. You know, I've really been active in vociferous since I was 17 and figured out how a microphone worked and the internet works. And my views have really changed as I've gotten older and I've become less

funny because you usually become a stickler in the mud as you get older but my mind's opened up the more and more I've done this. Now not everything is legitimate. You know, I still firmly believe Bigfoot's flesh and blood but I think there are some situations that are unique and it's easy for us to say these situations don't happen because we don't partake in them and we don't know and we think

that because folks in the past have made some claims that have proven to be bogus and there's no real evidence that have come from that, that it can't be. You know what I mean? It's just not possible, but I think we have to change our attitudes a little bit, or we're not going to go anywhere. What has worked for us? But since, you know, the Patterson-Gimbled film,

what have we gotten in terms of real concrete evidence that says any of us are right? Well, you know, I'm glad you said that exactly. That queues up the next question, and that is, what would you like to see done differently as far as research goes, either one of you, and I don't mean to just like, but, you know, as far as research goes, are we just not being creative enough? What do you see that's working? What are the things that you would kind of just throw away at this point?

I mean, I'll give you the floor. I'm interested to get European in on that. Ron, you want to swing first? Yeah, I think, I think for one thing, researchers are, you know, investigators of big foot over the years, the ones that have kind of that have made the flesh and blood theory as a standard need to open our minds up a bit. You know, I've been saying this now for a lot of years.

I do believe there are flesh and blood. I saw something that was flesh and blood. I don't know if, you know, is it the standard big foot? It wasn't a big foot. It looked more human than anything else, but it was, you know, I had a lot of hair.

around it. So, you know, there have been a lot of sightings, especially on the East Coast of Neanderthals or the early human-like Bigfoot. But that being said, I have also heard many reports and have talked to people that have actually been up close to these creatures, have followed them, been in close proximity, and have watched these. seem to simply vanish. And without any means of being able to do that other than it being a possible cloaking or interdimensional type of portal. I mean, you know, there are a lot of people, there are some people in this, in the Bigfoot community that do advocate this a lot of times. It's ridiculed for it.

But I do believe that all researchers need to keep an open mind because, frankly, keeping, you know, staying with, you know, the flesh and blood theory as, you know, to be a standard, to be a standard, I would say, is just not really bringing out much evidence. I mean, we still haven't got a body. We still haven't got anything but maybe some hair. We have supposed DNA. We got a lot of reports. we do have some photographic evidence supposedly other than

you know of course the Patty film but a lot of others but it can't be proven so maybe there's this other area that needs to be explored more yeah Lon and I always talk about this about

once a week we have this conversation somewhere along the line he's like open your mind up for chop and my mind's getting more open, but I think there are some scientific properties to that too. Infrasound, you know, we've been talking about Infrasound as a community for a long time. Is it an application that these, and I use the term creatures, so if that's offensive to anybody, I'm sorry, but these creatures, do they have that ability to use a natural phenomenon like Infrasound, be able to produce that to render us hapless or temporarily

immobilized so they can, you know, make that quick escape? there's you know that's a possibility so as opposed to you know it potentially using a portal it you know uses its infrasound boom we're stunned and then it goes it's just a possibility but you know we have to be creative and and we've been rather stale we put a lot of emphasis on footprints and you know i hate footprints can i be honest with you like i've sat through so many presentations who are well respected like if i wanted to know that much about feed i to become a pediatrist I don't care. I understand they're cool to look at and they're big and you can learn a lot about, you know, feet from footprints, but I don't care about it.

Like, let's give me something tangible to work with here. The skukum cast, so you've got a foot, an ankle, and a butt print of a big foot. Whoopty-do. I mean, it's good to look at, but what's it mean? And what can we do with it? We could put it on a wall and say, hey, that's a Sasquatch butt and a leg and a heel. And that's great because one person thinks it's this and 42 other people think it's that. So really does it add anything to our scope of evidence?

Not really. And then DNA, well, let's be honest. Everybody that's touched Bigfoot DNA in the last 10 years has really boggled that. And if we don't get the answers we like, we'll just publish our own journal. But, I mean, it doesn't really mean anything to us, right? We're just getting, it's circular. You know, we get the same stuff. You know, 10 weeks later, there'll be another Bigfoot in a freezer,

and everybody will be chasing after that. And I don't know about you guys, but I went through. that the first time. I don't want to go through that stuff again. I want something different. Most of the people out there looking for big foot, we're not trained professionals, right? We don't have any background and evidence collection where, you know, I'm a sales manager. What the hell do I know about collecting blood? You know, I just, that's not my thing. And if we take the time and get ourselves educated in those processes, perhaps we'll start collecting better evidence. And I think that's where we need to look at using real modern science to train ourselves and educate ourselves

to collect evidence better. Then we can go on to the next level. Even with photography, you know, some people, let's look, I love Dallas Gilbert, nice guy, but damn, man, quit circling things and saying there's a big foot in that picture. There's nothing there. Is it a yellow or a red circle, though? I mean, these people, you know, take pictures, and I'm glad you got that Kodak digital camera, but in today's world, that's just not going to cut the mustard.

You know, you need something really robust to get great photographs of a Bigfoot that's going to be acceptable by anybody. We need national geographic quality documentary evidence, not this stuff we're going to get out there on a, you know, on a weekend Bigfoot trip, unless we're really lucky. And we don't have the money for it. And this doesn't solely relate just to Bigfoot either. You know, these type of disappearance or whatever

these type of characteristics applied to a lot of cryptids. Dog man, these type of things, Mothman. You know, people see them and all of a sudden they don't see them. It just doesn't you know, Bigfoot doesn't

have a monopoly on this. This is, you know, this is something that happens in most of the cryptid world. Now, you guys brought up, well, Sean, you brought up the word creature and you brought out the word habituation. And I think that, especially with habituation, people see it as a four-letter word.

It's just automatically tied to a certain thing. That's a shame. It is a shame. And they tie the person to a certain mental state, if you will. And I don't think that that's right, because I think if you look at any, not that I'm automatically assuming that a Sasquatch is a great ape, but if you just look at a great ape and the fact that they recognize people, they recognize smells and sights and sounds, and they're very intelligent,

Why is habituation a four-letter word? It's uncomfortable. You know, we don't want to recognize that behavior because it's too easy. You know, it does to us, it doesn't seem like there's a whole lot of effort involved. Bigfoot comes up to the window, steals your brownies, done deal, you know. And I think maybe the fact is in some situations, depending on where you're at and the type of person you are, the type of company you keep and the type of lifestyle you live, that might be okay to the Bigfoot to just come up to. your window and steal your brownies. And before anybody

goes out there and says, oh, this guy's gone off the deep end, I'm just trying to make a point that, you know, if you really are at, we'll use the term at peace with your surroundings and you're comfortable in your environment, you know, you're going to be more aware of what's going on in it. And maybe sometimes people aren't catching up to what's

going on around them because they're too distracted by things going on in their everyday life and they're just too busy. We have distractions around us all the time. I don't go anywhere anymore without some sort of connected device on me. So how much attention am I really paying to what's going on around me? And that's the lifestyle we live now. It's what we've been trained to do.

My kids don't go outside and play half as much as I used to because they've got an iPad. They can go around the world and they'll have to leave the couch. It's a shame, but that's where we're at. And it's easy. Like I said, for some folks that have been doing this for a long time, 20, 25 years, I've been looking for Bigfoot since the Stone Age, and they haven't gotten anything. It's frustrating because here's some, you know,

somebody saying Bigfoot's knocked in my door and asked for garlic and perfect English. And those are the situations we've dealt with in the past that have really soured the milk for the now. And I don't think it's fair to put all these situations in that bucket. And here's why. A couple years ago, I interviewed a lady. She called us one day over when we used to have a Bigfoot hotline. And she wanted to, you know, share her story with us.

So we drove up and met her at a restaurant. and her husband talked to us. She was a retired nurse. Her husband's a retired school teacher. And he's going blind, you know. And we built a great relationship, came out to their house. We've had dinner with him on several occasions and got to know them as people. And, you know, she had encounters with something ongoing on her property.

And I really thought, you know, maybe she's lonely. She just wanted somebody to talk to her husband. Like I said, who's nearly blind, you know, had an experience with something. something out there too, something that he couldn't see, but he could feel. And, you know, it's stimulating other senses. He's starting to have the, and he thought his wife was a little nuts when she first started talking about it until he had an experience with something. And that really shook me.

And, you know, and I thought for a long time, you know, maybe I've been wrong about all this. And maybe these folks are experiencing something. And they'll take a look at their surroundings. They live in some of the old growth forests of Pennsylvania, areas that haven't been touched. Some of these trees are so big, I can't even wrap my arms around them, a hundred-year-old tree. So these people live in a very remote area, and they live there year-round where other people in that area don't. So they're all the time.

So who's to say these people aren't experiencing what they say they're experiencing? And I firmly believe that those folks did. And the one night we were sitting out there with them, we heard some sounds. We couldn't get any visual identification what was going on, but we sure heard the sounds. and that really kind of added more credence to what was going on for us. So it's changed my mind. I don't think, I don't think habituation is a bad word anymore. Creature, you know, I still use the term.

It shouldn't be because, you know, I've been involved with investigating these things. Oh, well, I really started getting involved with cryptids after I had in my sighting. But, you know, I've been involved with the paranormal since the late 70s. And the obituation situation, anyway, is, uh, I, I, I've been involved. I think people are actually witnessing these Bigfoot and other cryptids. This is one thing I want to stress. These areas, for the most part, and for the reports that I have received, and the ones I've received that have never reported on,

I think are areas where it's just not Bigfoot activity. There's other activity going on. There's other cryptids. There's spiritual activity. There's UFO activity. There's a lot of other things going on in these areas, these hot spots. It's just not a Bigfoot habituation. I've been involved with an obituation up in Canada for the past, for the last three years.

I have reported on it very minimally because I just don't want to expose it to people going up there and start going through the area and start tearing it up and start. messing with these creatures. I know they're there. There have been other areas that I have received reports on a lot of different things. I just will not. I just refuse to put on the blog because I know they're going to be consequences. I, you know, people may think I get a report and automatically it goes to the blog. No, it doesn't happen that way.

There are some situations, it's just not big foot, that I just do not. put the information out there for everybody to look at. I investigated and maybe report it, you know, a small percentage of it, but there's a lot of information that I just won't put out. I was the, getting back to his habituation, there are, there are actual habituations going on.

I, yeah, I think it's funny that you mentioned about, uh, being careful about what you put out there on your blog or your podcast or something. but the first interview that I had done was a siding on the edge of the Hockamock swamp here in Massachusetts. And it was in Betty's neck, Lakeville Mass, and I can say it now. It's not a big deal.

But here I am a guy in my very first podcast. I put it out there on blog talk radio. And next to nobody listening. And people started showing up to this spot that I described on the show. So you think there's no one listening. But to your point, you know what? Word spreads. And the next thing you know, where I had taken pictures of some of these siding spots

and, you know, talk to some of the people I was interviewing, wouldn't you know it? People started showing up and posting pictures of those sites literally two days later. And I thought, this is the reason why nobody exposes the location of where you're looking at because you never know who's listening. I made up on mind when I started the blog that, you know, and I started back in 2005. I made up my mind that, look, not only the fact that I may get sued for maybe disclosing something I shouldn't have, but I've always maintained that if the person who reports these

things to me, if they want certain information removed or redacted, I will do that. I am not going to release something that a person is being in my confidence and then put it out there in a blog. That's just not the way I do it. I'm going to report what they want to report and that's it. Like I said, a lot of these cases I have done further research. I have become real close with somebody. I may have talked them into maybe disclosing more. I'm not saying I haven't, which I have, but, you know, with something I hear on the spot and I'm just not going to throw it out there on the blog and open it. enough for a lot of people to go in there and start calls the problems.

Right, right. And I think that's a big problem. I think that's a big problem with people that do, that blog on the paranormal. I think when they get a hot story, they throw it out there and just, you know, let it be. And, you know, they're going to get a lot of hits on it. And, you know, look, I got a lot of stories that, you know, I know are going to get hot. But it's something, you know, it's normally something that is already out there. As far as something that's new, something that's personal, you know, somebody may contact me and say, look, I'd like for you to put this in the blog.

And the first thing, I want to know how much tension you want. You know, you really got to be careful about what you want me to put out there. You know, it's funny, Lon. But one of the things we just start talking about, Dave Dragerson from the PA Bigfoot Society and I, you know, it's kind of a sense of decorum when a researcher comes out to your home. So we have a lot of members in the PA Bigfoot Society. And, you know, what you're doing out there, you're trying to be a discreet as possible, right? So why in the name does everybody show up in their PA Bigfoot Society T-shirts and bumper stickers

galore? And you're like advertise, we're here, you know, we're here to investigate your neighborhood. Come on, let's all have a party. And are you really protecting your witness's confidentiality then either in subtle ways you're not even thinking about it. It's great to be identified as a group. And it's great to have all that, you know, flair and all that hoopla about it. But really, are you doing yourself any justice?

Or you're doing your clients any justice when you're investigating? And, Dave, to your point, you know, you make that one mistake and talk about where you're researching. The problem is today with so many people that have decided to dip their foot in the water for a few years until this becomes uncool again, everybody's out in your research areas. You know, you've got to be extremely careful where you're posting. And a lot of times it's unintentional. People will follow. You know, if people have an idea, I took my Keystone Bigfoot Project magnets off my SUV because people were following us to see where we were going.

And, you know, there's certain amounts of safety and things are people that don't really have a lot of experience being out there really don't belong being out there. So why take the inherent risk if inviting them along inadvertently? So, I mean, don't beat yourself up too bad. Don't beat yourself up too bad about it. It happens to everybody in ways we don't even think about. Sure. Lesson learned.

And I apologize to us too. Go ahead. Yeah, this is a question for both of you guys. As far as the amount of reports you guys receive, how many people are ashamed and embarrassed and say, I'll give you my story, but I don't, I want to say anonymous. Well, you know, I think it's...

For me, it's about 90%. I think Lon gets more serious people. reporting to him than maybe we do because you know you punch up bigfoot you know big foot reports you know one of the PBS comes up right you know on the forefront of people reporting sites and you go to Google you submit your information report and but there's a good portion I would say at least 65% of the people you know are really apprehensive about any of their information being put out there the other the other portion of that are people that are either just

you know joshing around and really you know just want to give you a hard time or people that just really don't care if you put their information out on the internet or not and just really want to report what's going. A lot of times what we get, you know, there's an option to, yes, we may post our information, your database, but please remove my name and all that other good stuff. Yeah, all the reports I get are no connection to, you know, what Pennsylvania Big Four Keystone project get. I just, you know, that's for them to investigate, though.

I'm part of it. Everything I post, unless they permit me to post. something is it's stuff that's coming to me directly and I I nine times out of ten I I will contact the witness again to you know to get more detail or if it's something they put in a report I make question if they really want to put that in there so but I quite frankly you asked how many people want to remain anonymous I'd say 90% of the reports I get people want to remain anonymous I mean there's there that There's still that fear factor that they're going to be ridicule.

Ridicule is the number one reason why people just don't want to be, you know, just want to be known for something that they saw. Yeah, I tell you right now I have a situation where people are really hammering down where they want their information put out on the Internet. And I'm really, I haven't posted it yet on purpose because I, you know, to me, there's something telling about that. When you're pestering me and bothering me to get your report up on a website, why? What do you want from them?

That's true. Yeah, I was wondering about that aspect of it is do you guys put any more credence and accountability to someone that wants to be anonymous? Well, I guess it all depends on the story, though. I mean, with anybody else that want to be anonymous, sometimes their methods are just as, their reasonings just as nefarious as the people

that are blatantly reporting hoax. And you just have to be, you know, we all make mistakes. I think sometimes we can all say there might be one or two reports that snuck in that probably weren't good. Just since Dave Dragason and I have taken over the PA Bigfoot Society and Eric Altman has passed a whole, I mean a back ton of reports to us, weeding through some of those, you know, it's a real difficult task to decide for, you know, a group of like four or five of us to decide out of all these hundreds of reports, you know, which ones are really good? Because no matter how good you are.

You always have opportunity to improve and to learn. And somebody's always going to be better than you out there, snake in the grass, to try to pull one over on you. Right. I have found that most of the people that report to me don't embellish. You know, when I get a report that's embellished, it just seems too fancy or too cute, and, you know, it usually doesn't pan out.

But a lot of them don't realize I'm going to come back and question about it as well. he does accept fan fiction no folks now guys switching gears a little bit and this is a hypothetical and this is a question for both of you guys if you could go out in research in a place of interest

and had any technology that you chose at your disposal what do you think you might utilize and where would you go and piggyback that what would your research days and nights look like.

Oh, that's a good question. That's a loaded one. It is. Nobody ever asks us the good question, Lauren. We're used to asking questions. Even ours aren't that good. I,

you know, even though a lot of people, and I do kind of subscribe to this, that, you know, the technology is there. It's going to be better technology coming down the road

to be able to detect, you know, cryptids and, you know, big float or whatever. whatever. I myself just wouldn't really want that. I'm just because the old school, I mean, go out there and use my senses, basically. It always seems to be to trot and true way of doing things. I don't really think that's changed much, and I really don't think it has changed much. you know I I don't think many people that have going out looking for Bigfoot have actually seen a big foot

you know it's one of those happenstance things and and that goes for anything any critter I think you know it's some people are just fortunate enough to see things I have had two experiences that you know I was I had just basically been the right place or the right time and it wasn't anything for me going out to look for. When I have going out and look for something, I never see it. I think most people will tell you the same thing. You might find evidence. And mostly that's what you're there to find evidence.

But as far as having an actual sighting, you know, I just think it's all, you know, it's all happenstance. Wow. Lon used to senses game. Man, Law, you suck. No, I'm kidding. I like my iPad. My iPad's my favorite thing. to take with me everywhere.

That's my notebook, my maps. I mean, I mean, when you have signal and stuff. But I don't know, if I could have, like, the best SLR I could get, you know, DSLR, that will do full-frame video and, you know, superb pictures. I'd take that in heartbeat. And probably that, my iPad, and my

notebook. You know, I've spent lots of money in audio recorders. I have a GoPro camera, and the only thing I, you know, I look ridiculous when I wear it, but it's fun. and the battery on them sucks. So, I mean, you're very limited when it comes to technology

in terms of how long is it going to last for you. And sure enough, when something is going to happen, if it's going to happen, it's going to happen when you don't have any battery left. So, you know, that's just a law of averages, right? I don't know. Lon makes a good point when he says your senses. I like to take, you know, some minimum technology

with us, recorders, cameras, that sort of things. But they don't go crazy. You know, the problem with Fleer units that most people have, have most private investigators. They're like plumbing grade. So they're going to be great if someone passes gas, but they're not going to be great for anything in a distance. So it's going to be fun to watch on YouTube.

But it's not going to do anything. They're rated for like 10 to 30 feet. And that became the great thing. Oh, everybody uses FLIR. Well, okay, afford one. Mortgage your house and go buy a real one. And then we can talk shop. They're so expensive.

And I said that earlier. Most of us don't have the money to go out and spend 20, 30, $40,000 on equipment, you know, and if I did, I'd be divorced. So, I mean, there's a cost-benefit analysis to that. Is it really going to be beneficial for us? We talked about earlier, Dave, you know, we said since the Patterson film, have we really put out anything or gotten any evidence that's been great? No, and the technology seems to make it more of a problem than a benefit.

and honestly the Patterson film was film. I mean, come on. It wasn't that great. It wasn't, you know, Tennessee. I have a theory, sorry about it, I have a theory based on based on that. And I think technology can be kind of a crutch. I think I liken it to hunting. I love to hunt, right?

So when I'm out there with a bow, I am approaching the situation a lot differently than when I'm out there with a slug gun, where I can reach out a few hundred yards and touch something versus I have to get within 30 or 40 yards to touch something. I think research is the same way. I think if you bring out all the bells and whistles, if you are tied to your fleer, if you are tied to your GoPro, if you're tied to your GPS unit and all these things, you're so focused on those things, I really believe that your senses suffer. And so.

Yeah, I agree with you. But therein lies the problem. So what do you do? Do you go out there as a minimalist and say, okay, I'm going to. to do XYZ and really get in tune with my environment. And I think both Long and Sean you'd both kind of had mentioned that when you're talking about doing research. Or do I come out with the latest and greatest trail cams, fleer the whole nine yards,

and kind of give up that balance. Does that make sense what I'm saying? Well, the great thing about trail cams is still take great things about those trail cams is they'll take great pictures of the person stealing your trail cam. I mean, but are they doing anything? you know, we put a lot of money into this stuff, but is it really... The raccoon's stealing the candy bar. Yeah, but is it doing anything to benefit us?

I don't know. It's great to go out there and look like we were... Yeah, it does. It picks up some interesting things sometimes, but it doesn't pick up a big foot. I mean, it'll pick up some strange things that may be some other question in the UFO, you knowfology, but they do pick up a lot of different things. but I think

I think you're right though I think anybody who has hunted you know look I'm in a different generation than than Sean but Sean and I think a lot on a lot of this you know I used to do a lot of hunting and you know I rely on my sense

as being out there in the field and it was the same with going out there doing research I think I think being trying to be a part of your environment is a much better tool to use for finding evidence and for finding whatever you're looking for. These bells and whistles make great television, but I don't think it's the greatest thing for in the field.

But do you guys think that even if somebody got a halfway decent trail can picture or a, you know, a fleer, whatever it might be, is that really going to be, you know, the kudagra for Bigfoot research? I guess it depends how good it is. As far as the Fleer goes, no, I don't think so. I've seen a lot of Fleer pictures. That could have been Bigfoot. As far as trail cam, there's more definition there. If it is a Bigfoot, I think you'll be able to make it out.

I think that maybe has some value to it. But then again, you know, it's just a picture. It's not an eyewitness. It's just something that was ticked up in a digital, you know, a digital film, a film, but, you know, it's a digital image. I don't know. You know, it does make it, you know, it does kind of prove that maybe something was there. But like I said, again, you know, until there's actual tangible evidence other than an image,

I think there's always a good question. So you guys are definitely of the camp that we need a body. We need something more than just Yeah, and care. I believe that, but I would never kill one. I wouldn't want to see anybody kill one. It would have to be a situation

where it was a, you know, somehow a live body or something that was found that after it died naturally or such. I don't know. I would never want to kill it. You know, I'm definitely in the no-kill side on this.

you know, I think these things, you know, I, I'm just taking reference to the individual I saw. This thing, you know, this thing was more human than it was whatever. You know, it was, it was just looking at a big, large K-man as far as I was discern, big large Neanderth. And I think a lot of these, I think a lot of the sites people have reported are the same type of thing. some of these hairy hominids are seem to be more human than they do primate rape go ahead. Lonnie, you mentioned already your encounter, I think that's a perfect segue. And I know you've told it so many times, but for me personally, I don't get tired of hearing it.

So if you wouldn't mind running through your encounter again, I think that would be fantastic. Okay. It was May 9, 1981. First of all, let me see. I have been on paranormal investigator since the late 70s. So, you know, I did a lot of ghost hunting so far. It was something back then that wasn't really done. There were very few people doing this type of thing.

There are people in uphology. There are people looking at UFOs and researching those. But as far as, you know, paranormal ghost hunting and then crypted research, There were very few people that did that. Well, anyway, this was May 9, 1981, it was 10 o'clock the morning, and I was fly fishing at the South Branch of Potashco River, which is about a mile downstream from Route 32, which is near Sykesville, Maryland. It was a nice sunny day, low 60s temperature. I was in an area where the river kind of flattens out into a big pool, and it's a place. I had fished many times previously.

I was on the south bank of this river. When I noticed a stray mixed breed dogs sniffing around weeds and thickets on the north bank. Now, I'd say this is about 40 yards from me, and the dog was kind of weaving it out of the brush. But I didn't, you know, I just hadn't to see the dog, so I went back to, you know, went back to fishing and concentrated on what I was doing. But after a few minutes or so, I heard the dog barking and ground. So I figured he may have stirred up a deer, but when I looked into the direction of the noise, I noticed a dark-haired creature bobbing up and down the thicket.

Now, I didn't know what it was. I stopped fishing and tried to move closer, you know, for what I could. And, you know, in the river to get a better look. And I noticed the dog stopped barking all of a sudden. And suddenly I heard a loud yelp from the dog, and this creature stood up. Now the best I could tell is that it was about seven to eight foot tall, that dark matted hair. I could only see the body from the chest up because the weeds were scared most, you know, most of everything down below that. I stood completely still and I could hear it making a ticking sound.

As it was now observed walking toward my left on the other side and then the start. slowly minutes way through the thicket, then came out of the brush, so I got a full look at it. It was definitely a male. I got a good look at genitalia, but it looked like a Neanderthal. Now, the thing was covered in hair, top to the bottom, except the face was exposed, very little hair, and it had put a head hair on its head. It was huge. It had a lot of size, a lot of muscle definition as well. Of course, I couldn't do so because I had waiters on. And the thing was, it wasn't running. But it turned around and hit it back to woods.

But it was making, it was moving. It was large strides. It was just moving too fast. So I decided to get back of my car, which are just above me on the road, and drive into Sykesville and making immediate report to the authorities. Now, on my way back to the vehicle, I did notice the dog. It had actually crossed the river, and it did have a little bit of blood around the neck, and on its hindquarters.

I'm quite sure this thing grabbed the dog and slammed it somehow. That's why I urge Yelp. But he was moving around pretty good. He didn't look like he was injured, so, you know, severely. So I just let the dog go and, you know, got in the car and turned him. around and went into Sykesville. So I drove to the nearest telephone, which was actually located outside of a bar. The local police told me to go back to the area, and it had someone to meet me there.

So when I got back to the car, I drove back to the location, which was only about a three or four minute drive. It was about a mile. And by the time I got back, there was a state police officer there already. stopping traffic on the road and not let anybody go through. So, you know, I told him I had made the report. He didn't want to hear anything about it. He said, look, turn around, get out of here.

He said, I don't want to hear it. I've been told not to let anybody in here. And I did. You know, after I argued a bit, William, I turned around and I went home. So about an hour later, and I lived in slices with the time. So about an hour later, I went, I got back in the car and drove back to the location. And frankly, you know, when I got there, there were cars lined all up and down the road. And this was only two-lane roads.

So, you know, it was fairly narrow. So I had to walk maybe a quarter mile back to the location when I got there. That place was crawling with people. It had, there was tape all around the whole area across the river everywhere. And there were people going through. There were dogs. There were a lot of dark vehicles, black-colored vehicles. Back then, they didn't have SUVs.

But they had a type of, I don't know what they called. They were like a wagoneer or something like that. There was two or three black in black. They were like waggeneers. And I could hear helicopters. There must have been, I never got a good number of how many people were out there looking around, but it was at least several dozen. And

you know, I walked up to the officer that was standing there, a state cop, and I asked me, I said, you know, what's going on? And I was just plain stupid. He kind of laughed at it. He said, somebody saw a big foot. I said, really? I said, okay. So I just stood there and watched a little bit.

I was there for about five, ten minutes. And I decided I'd just go back. So when I got back home, I contacted the the three television stations in Baltimore. They were very interested in getting my story when I got more information or after they made inquiries.

So they told me to call them back, all three of them told me, look, call back, we'll contact you, so they took my information. Two days later, I never heard anything. There was nothing on the news, nothing ever came out. And I called back to all three of them and none of them wanted to talk to me. and you know that's the way that's the way it actually happened uh you know that's what happened

and for all this time i you know i've been investigating this particular sighting i finally did hear something many years later from a uh a former sykesville police officer who verified that this did happen but the uh this the uh the uh the uh uh uh sykesville police police, county, state police, none of them have a record of anything that had that day. Oh, wow. It was just like, yeah, it was a big cover. I think what happened, but what I do think what happened was, and I've come to this conclusion now that I think this, this thing was cited earlier that day in the area of Mariusville,

which is downriver. I think they were already people looking for it. and when the call came my call came in they weren't far away and it just happened to be there so but the fact that they had so many people there and had all this stuff set up my personal opinion is I think they called it I think they got it I think they actually recovered something really and yeah I think they did I really do I really do think they did and um yeah You know, it wouldn't be the first time I've heard that type of thing. You know, there have been a sighting and that, you know,

you know, authorities show up and, you know, seem to take a big interest in what's going on. Not to the degree this was on my case, because they got there so quick and had things going right away. So, but I do believe, I do sincerely believe that they did track this thing down. And, Juan, this is all, sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. This is all conjecture, but with you thinking, and this is very interesting about your story, with you thinking that they actually captured the creature, I mean, again, all conjecture, but what do you think they do with it once they capture it?

And what's the point of it besides, you know, removing it for public safety reasons? I don't know. You know, that's something that I've been kicking around for all these years. What do they do with it? You know, I live in the Baltimore Washington area. I said, we're close to a lot of government facilities, a lot of military facilities. I have, for years, I have heard all kinds of different stories from, you know, well-placed people, people who actually worked in the government or had witnessed things.

and I am of the thought that they have had populations of these creatures in their facilities. It's various times. That's about all I can really say. I think, and I still think they do, I really do. Why? I don't know. You know, I don't know. But I think they are very aware of the government is very aware. of these hominids or these creatures or whatever you want to call them.

And I do think they have either bodies or I think, I personally think they've got live, they have live individuals that they're holding. Now, Sean and Lon, thank you so much for sharing that. Again, I know you've shared it about a thousand times, at least by now. And if anyone wants to see, yeah, I bet, you know, it was retold on Monk. and mysteries in America so if anyone wants to to check that out they did a good a fine job on that didn't they now Sean have you had any experiences in the woods that you found interesting or unexplainable and all the years I've

done this September 2012 on that that sounds about right yeah that's that's when it happened yeah September 29 I think was the day 2012 we had a group, a small group of us, myself, my best friend Ray Henderson shot, and another one of our associates as part of our group. And a couple members of the PA Bigfoot Society frequented, you know, we went up to an area that our group is frequent in northern Pennsylvania. I mean, it's a pretty active area, what we would consider. But in all the times we've been up there, nothing's really happened. So we got up there at about 7 o'clock, and we started

setting up to 10 and getting the area ready, and about 9 o'clock. Dustin, the other gentleman and I sat down and got the fire going, smoke's going from the fire, and I see something out of the corner of my eye, and it just flies right through the campsite. It's right at the square of the campsite. And I looked, I was kind of astonished to what I saw. There's just smoke going on. I looked over at Dustin, and Dustin's looking at me like he'd just seen a ghost.

And he says, did you see that? I'm like, I think I saw that. So we got up, ran over to the edge of the woods, and it was dark, so we really couldn't see what was going on. We could hear something moving off into the distance, and it was pretty heavy, and we thought we'd chase after, but the gradient on the ground,

and it being dark, it just wasn't a, it wasn't a good idea at that particular time. So we waited for Ray to come back to see what was going on, and we talked to him about what we possibly just experienced, and, you know, we were kind of excited about what's going on.

The rest of the night, things were kind of uneventful until, you know, we decided to call it in because we were going to get up really early. We're going to get up at like 3 a.m. and start doing some investigating on the main track of land that we have going through that we've been through a lot of times. No real risk of injury there. Not like we're trying to the woods going to trip over rocks or logs and die or anything fun. And we had settled into the tent, and we put the fire out and the logs off the fire so we didn't burn ourselves in this little meadow area that we had going on.

And about 45 minutes later, we start hearing something walking around our campsite. Now, I don't mean prancing. I mean, walking around our campsite. Ray's dead asleep. Like, you couldn't wake him if, you know, you had to. And we just lay in there. Dustin's, Dustin goes, Sean, to hear that. I'm like, yeah, I hear it.

I wonder what the hell's going on. I thought, oh, you know, maybe there's just, you know, something weird going on. We'll just sit up and see what's going on. And starts going around our campsite. And we look down and the fire's going again. and so Dustin's freaked out and Dustin's forming the military

I'm trying to put my boots on and I go to get out of the tent and he'll show me my gun and I thought oh great well we've got some moron out here playing around with us and Dustin's going to kill him so I put my boots on you know toss Dustin his gun

which is a great gun safety by the way throwing a gun at somebody and something had moved the logs back onto the fire and I guess we hadn't put the embers out as good as we thought we did in the fire reignited. And as I get out, he goes, Sean, take a look, and he's pointing over the area, that same type of, I call it, creature that we thought we saw earlier, the same coloration

was running up the hillside next to our campsite. And I was astonished, and I just couldn't believe what was going on. So I'm in a panic. You know, I'm not a very brave guy. I'm not afraid to admit that. You know, I've been doing this a long time, but I still jump, and I haven't pied myself yet, which I'm proud of. But I get very excitable. And I was pretty pretty scared. I mean, I was frightened. So I went and called a couple of the investigators that didn't stay with us. They drove back to their home, which was, you know, about 20 miles away from we were camping. Now, this campsite's five miles in on the road, and then you have to walk another mile and a half from a vehicle to get into this meadow, which that we camp in, which, by the way, is not on any map. We called to get a permit to camp in that area, and they had no idea that this little meadow area was even there that we made, that we made our camp that day. So not a whole lot of people know about this place. So if somebody was messing with us, they did their research and really wanted to play around with us. But there may be videotape of one of the gentlemen made the movie Mountain Devil.

I don't know if you guys heard of the movie Mountain Devil, the search for Frank Peterson. That's named by my friend Ryan Cavaline. And he and Dave Rupert made it back. I talked to Dave's wife on the phone. I'm like panicking, talking to his wife on the phone. And she's trying to get a hold of him to get him to come down with the purpose of getting us out of there. I didn't want to stay there anymore. I wanted to get the hell out. And I wasn't leaving there by ourselves. It was really dark and scary.

And they made it back. And as they were coming, Ryan had the, you know, he's filming a movie. He wanted some B-roll. So he's got the camera going. And he has our reaction somewhere on film of us just being completely petrified by whatever it was messing with us out there. So they sit with us for a while and they put a couple game cams up. And they managed. to get me calm down enough, you know, forker, something's going on out here. You know, you guys, you know, puff it up and see if you can get some evidence, you know, stick it out, man, you can do this. I'm like, okay, you've talked us back into it. We'll stay. We only got a few more hours.

So they stuck out with us for a while and nothing happened. Nothing went on, so they got up and left. Well, everybody gets settled back in, and we're down for the night. Ray's asleep again. It doesn't take long for Ray to get to sleep. And Dustin's not going to sleep if his life depended on it, and I'm just sitting there. kind of like I'd like to sleep, but I can. About an hour and a half later, here comes something

walking around our campsite again. So Dustin's, you know, he's out of the tent, he's got a sidearm running, and I don't think Dustin would kill something, but I think it was more of a precautionary made him feel safe, and that if something someone was out there messing with us if they wanted to harm us so he could make it look like Swiss cheese.

And, you know, Dustin and I are out there, and then Ray, finally, here's what's going on, gets up and comes out with us, and we're kind of like three men with their back, to each other in a certain like it's out of a Scooby-Doo, you know, television show type deal. And something's moving around the perimeter of the campsite again in the tree line. So at this point, I'm a little picked off because I think somebody's out here messing with us now. So, you know, if somebody's out there messing with us, you need to show yourself now,

or I said, we're going to pump you full of bullets. And I was pretty serious about it. And nothing. It stopped. No movement whatsoever. Nothing. Well, I was half tempted to tell Dustin the fire warning shot, but he wouldn't do it, and that's probably a good thing he didn't. But a few moments of that little standoff, something barreled out of there like a, like, sounded like a bulldozer going through the brush and took off.

Well, we stayed awake inside the tent for the rest of the night. It started to rain. So I figured nothing was going to happen now. It's raining. We're going to be okay. Six a.m. rolls around. It's starting to get light outside. We throw everything we have into some toast.

I tie some rope around it, and three of us ran out of that meadow with our gear and everything, slopped into a tote. We hauled butt out of that metal. We made it back to my band at that time in probably about seven minutes. And I'm a hospicey guy, so to run a mile and a half in seven minutes toe to toe, you know we had to be frightened. And I called Lon. I talked to Eric Altman, and Lon will tell you, I almost gave up what I did. I almost never started researching again.

I was petrifying. It was a terrifying experience. and nothing made me feel threatened and terrified. But the fact that I've been doing this for so long and I felt so helpless and unprepared frightened me to no end. And it was a really shocking experience. And I'm probably not doing it a lot of justice here.

But Lonel tell you, I was pretty, it freaked me out. And it still freaks me out. I've only been to that area once since it's happened. So even with the gun, you guys felt like this is nothing. Like we're unprepared. well you think about it you know we have an idea of what these things look like and how big they are that's going to be like a pea shooter trying to you know i i you know i was just preparing myself to the way to die that was going to hurt the least i mean it oh geez well i apologize

for laughing i thought it was you know in your retelling it it it might sound a little comical especially knowing your your flavor of you know talking on the radio i didn't mean to oh i don't mind the humor no no no and in fact i make fun of the all the time. But it's scary. Well, it's not a fun encounter. I mean, it was interesting because I was a home. I was here in Maryland.

And Eric called me. He said, look, I'm heading back up to the research area. Sean just called me. They saw something. And Sean shook up. I'm going that way. I just wanted to let you know. Okay, well, let me know when you get up there.

So he got, you know, he got back up there. You know, and I didn't talk to anybody. But then later on, eventually Sean called me, and Sean was shook. And he told me what happened. But really, you didn't really want to talk about it for several weeks. And we finally did talk about it later. And you explained to me what you saw. I don't know what happened.

You know, that area right there was, you know, the research area. You guys have been there, what, seven or eight years previous to that. you've been working in that area. It's had a lot of anomalies. I mean, UFOs, a lot of lights in the woods, things being thrown, rocks, branches. So it's active. It's very active. A lot of reports from that area, too.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's an heavily reported area, yeah. It's a great area for research. Absolutely. Sean, how long did it take before you actually got back out in the woods then? Well, it took me a while. It took me a few months to go back out of the woods.

I think I went back in, oh, probably January. January of the next year, January, 2013. So it took me about three months to get back into the woods. And it frightened me. I was done. If you had asked anybody that knew me and, you know, how passion I am about this. And I don't say that to toot my own horn because, you know what, we're never going to be big stars and big foot, right? But I love this.

This is my hobby. This is my favorite thing to do, and it was gone. I didn't want to do it anymore. And my uncle, who I'm extremely close to, you know, saw me come home that day and packed my stuff up. And he goes, something's bugging you. What's going on? I said, I don't want to talk about it. I'm done.

I didn't talk to my wife about it too much until I really settled and processed what was going on. It frightened me, and I didn't want to do this anymore. And then finally, you know, I came to terms with what happened. And, you know, maybe I'm overreacting just a little bit, you know, going through that whole process in my head. And then I was like, you know, if we survived and experienced that, I wonder what the next one's going to be like. So I have an empathy for people that said they've seen and experienced something. You know, I used to be the thought that witnesses make terrible researchers. I used to think that.

I honestly thought that. And maybe it was because I never really experienced or saw anything. But to have that common ground and that sense of understanding that, you know, I can understand. what you're going through has really changed my outlook on this field of research and has really opened up my mind to these people that, you know, really have a, are really having a hard time with what they're dealing with and even what they've seen. Because I still struggle with it. You know, what did I see that day?

I don't know. I think I know what I saw, but I don't know. And these people that experience this, you know, not having that certainty, I think, is just as scary as admitting to somebody that you did see something that you can't explain. So I don't know, there's a lot of emotion involved in processing things. And I think once you experience that, you may be able to, you know, have that empathy and understanding. But I think you're also more protective of the research, right?

You don't want anybody that's coming in here just, you know, Josh and around making fun of this because it's not funny. And, you know, though I make jokes about it. Look, we have to make fun of what we do, right? We have to make fun of ourselves. Because seriously, what we do to most people is crazy and nuts and whatever. And it is kind of crazy and nuts. But that's fine.

We like it. And we have that right to make fun of it because we belong to it. We're part of it. And we live and breathe this, you know, in a good part every day. And I don't know. It's a real emotional thing. It was a real emotional time. It was scary.

But I'm comfortable with it now, for the most part. I don't know if you can tell. I'm still a little, I get a little emotional about it, but it is what it is. You know, we can't control it. We're back out there trucking along, and we're going to see what we can do next. That level of, you know, vulnerability must be extremely jarring. And, you know, I've said maybe in a very naive way that I've wanted to see one, but I know that it would be an extremely life-changing experience.

So I don't want to, you know, I don't say that to downplay anyone's, experience or encounter, which I've heard many, just like you guys that are, they're 100% life changing to the point where people lose sleep. And like you said, you don't go out for weeks. You know, some people sell all their hunting gear and it changes their entire lives. So I don't, I don't ever want to, you know, downplay anyone's encounters. Sean, I have a quick question for you. Certainly. Yeah. So I'm listening to this. And one of the things that comes to mind is, you know,

You go through these experiences and you get kind of used to them, the experience of what you're looking at. You can kind of say, all right, if this happens, then do this. Looking back on your experience, you reacted a certain way. If you're talking to Shannon who might have an experience out while she's researching, what would you say to Shannon knowing what you know now about your experience of what you might have done differently? Slowed it down, notice this, did this, this, and this. Is there anything, any advice you could give? I really wish I would have maintained some more self-control

and not really let the emotion take over of the situation. Knowing what I know now and having had that experience, I would have really taken the time to analyze what was going on before we decided to act and react, maybe not getting out of the tent so soon. And so, I don't want to say violently, but so reactionatory, maybe the total encounter could have been a little different. You know, I really think that whatever this was was drawn to us out of curiosity.

Sure. Not a malice. But, you know, in the middle of the night, you know, it's funny because, you know, as investigators and researchers, you're out here with the hopes of having some sort of encounter and getting evidence. But when I haven't you least suspected. And so your actual emotions take in above and beyond any sort of logic you have going on. Well, man, if I had my camera out here, this would have been great.

Great. But, you know, I don't know. Like I said, probably maintaining self-control would have been the biggest advice. You know, I know it's frightening and scary, but be calm. Try to be as calm as possible and don't do anything erratic. To get yourself more worked up. I think I worked myself up more than anything that subject was trying to do to us. Sure.

Well, thank you both for sharing your encounters. We really appreciate that. And you are both super busy guys. And first of all, I wanted to thank you again for being on with us tonight and making time to do that. But what do you guys have coming up? Oh, we've got a lot. We've got something coming up in April 18th of this year.

We're calling it a paranormal roundtable. And it's a roundtable discussion on a variety of paranormal. subject goes cryptosology, UFOs, in cases of highest strangers. And it pertains to incidents in Pennsylvania. It's all these participation, open form questions. It's going to be, it's going to start at 9 a.m. the morning. It's a Saturday until 8 p.m. at night. And it's going to be the Alberta Area Community Center in Alberta, Pennsylvania.

Now, Alberta is not that far from Allentown, so people in that area. we'll know where it's at. There's, I guess, the roof of like 300 people, so, you know, you can, you know, there may be room yet. I know the pre-sale, the tickets is $15 and $20 at the

door, but I hear tickets are going very quickly. This is the groups that are being featured at this are the Ghost Hunters Inc. Keystone Bigfoot Project, Legend Hunters, UFO Research Center of Pennsylvania, and Phams and Monsters, Forky in Research. And all the proceeds benefit the Arbutus Lockwoods Historical Society.

And this is something that's new. I mean, it's something we may actually, if it goes well, maybe actually something we continue to do. But we will be taking reports. We will be answering questions. You know, it's going to be a free-for-all is basically, you know, if somebody has questions about anything, any anomalies in the state of Pennsylvania, we are going to be there to try to answer the questions. It's going to be exciting.

We don't know what to expect. We've never really – No. This is the first event they've had like this in that particular area. Well, there's a lot to be said for that. Big congrats. We're excited. Thanks. It's new for us. We're excited to be able to help out the historical society. They're renovating their headquarters, which is an old Presbyterian church. So I'm sure that's not going to be a cheap project. Right.

So we're just glad to be able to come down and just have a good time and maybe talk to people that have some experiences or some reports that want to get off their chest because we need them. You know, that's what keeps us, you know, quote unquote, in business is reports to investigate information to collect without folks reporting that stuff to do. We're just guys driving around looking for a place to sit in the woods for a little bit. Well, right, ditto. I wanted to thank you guys a million times over for being here tonight. Thank you. I wanted to relieve you of your duties, and I'll make sure to do my duty as a host and plug all your goodies because you guys have a lot of them,

and I think it's fantastic. And just a big thanks for being on with us tonight, guys. That's our pleasure. Thank you. It's different to be on this side of the microphone. It is. It is. We get tired of talking every week.

I don't get tired of listening, so thank you. I don't get tired of listening, so thank you so much, guys. Yeah, thanks, guys. No problem. Thank you, Dave. All right, everybody. So as far as Lawn and Sean go, they have a lot going on. And Amazon.com has got all three of Lawn's books.

It's phantoms and monsters, bizarre encounters, strange encounters, and cryptic encounters. There's three different volumes. You can find the guys at arcane radio.com, which of course, any podcast catcher will have arcane radio on it. Phantoms and Monsters.com is the blog, and you can subscribe there. Sean's website is the forkshop.net. And the project he was talking about was keystonebigfoot.com. And of course, you can visit us at fastgwatch chronicles.com. Thank you, everyone.

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