Silicon Valley Girl: AI, Tech and Career Growth - Fei-Fei Li: In 10 Years There Will Be Only 2 Kinds of Workers

Episode Date: June 25, 2026

Dr. Fei-Fei Li created ImageNet — the dataset that triggered the deep learning revolution. Now she runs World Labs, where she just raised $1 billion to teach AI something it still can't do: understand physical space. She was named Time Person of the Year in 2025 and won the Queen Elizabeth Prize for Engineering.David Rogier founded MasterClass in 2015 on the idea that everyone should have access to world-class teachers. He has an MBA from Stanford and now builds all his own work tools with Claude Code instead of buying software — including a to-do list app that auto-deletes anything sitting on the list for more than a day and a half.In this episode, we get into what AI can already do and what it still can't, why the two loudest takes on AI — that it'll save the world, and that it'll take all the jobs — are both wrong, and what your kids' schooling and your own career actually look like in 10 years.We cover:Why Fei-Fei Li says "the cost of intelligence goes to zero" is an irresponsible claim — and what human intelligence actually includes beyond languageSpatial intelligence: the four things AI still can't do (understand, reason about, generate, and interact with 3D space) — and why World Labs is betting $1B on itThe barbell effect in the workforce: why being "decent" at anything isn't enough anymore, and the two roles that will thrive — top 1% specialists and high-agency generalistsWhy AI tutoring delivers the same learning in 60% less time — and why the real obstacle to changing education isn't the technologyDavid's full CEO stack: custom apps he built himself, "Davidify" — his own AI clone he gave his team — and why he stopped buying softwareThe one thing to do when an employee is scared to try AI: sit down with them, not send a YouTube linkWhat the job of product manager looks like today vs. five years ago — and why Fei-Fei only hires PMs who are riding the waveFei-Fei's advice for non-tech professionals: find someone under 25 and let them show you their world for a weekendHow long until AI handles the laundry — Fei-Fei's actual estimateLinks:📌Subscribe to my free newsletter where I go deeper on AI tools, career strategies, and building with AI: https://siliconvalleygirl.beehiiv.com/subscribe?utm_source=spotify&utm_medium=video&utm_campaign=futureproof-sub&utm_content=FeiFeiLi🔗 Instagram: ⁠⁠https://www.instagram.com/siliconvalleygirl/⁠⁠ 𝕏 : ⁠⁠https://x.com/siliconvalleymm⁠⁠ 💼 LinkedIn: ⁠⁠https://www.linkedin.com/in/marinamogilko⁠⁠ 📌 My Companies & Products: ⁠⁠https://Marinamogilko.co

You are running companies these days, multiple. What are you seeing? What are the biggest shit happening? My world is very much AI. So I think I get to experience really the cutting edge of where the technology is pushing. It's just, I cannot tell you how exciting this moment is. The technologists, the entrepreneurs and including product people, business people are all recognizing this. just really see change of how AI can now be used to rethink business, to rethink applications.

And, you know, it just feels, I've been in Silicon Valley for 17 years. The energy is just, I've never seen this before. Even 10 years ago, I did not feel that level of excitement. That's amazing. And I feel like everyone's working more. David, would you agree with that? what's happening in your company? It's a gap that's widening and increasing. If somebody's using AI, they're able to get tremendously more done and they feel a sense of agency that they never

have before. If they're still nervous to or haven't been trained to, you are seeing that that gap increase. One of the most interesting things I think that you talk about is that it seems like the world is split between all this is godlike and going to have a save the world and the other half of people are like this is the this is the devil and going to destroy everything very polarized society right now and i think one of the things that you talk about and have shown is that that is not a healthy approach or maybe isn't the best designed approach and that if you actually you should share this more than me but but but if you actually try to figure out what are the best aspects of it and how do I use it to actually help people,

we might be able to get the best of both worlds? You asked early about tools. And I was thinking about it. If you asked me like a couple months ago, I would have listed, you know, Claude and ChatGBT GBT and all the big tools. I have now found the most of the apps I use I built. And I built them with ClaudeCode code or with Codex. And I think this, first of all,

that's like amazing to me because now is like if my was if like my CEO stack is all apps that I built is that Davidify right I've read something like you build your own custom David Phi and I gave to my team which is like if you're trying to write something in my own voice yeah like here are a bunch of emails that I wrote and things I said so you can do it but even my to my productivity apps my to do list app I built and um and it is I have it that it that it is that it is that it if it's on the list for over two, over a day and a half, it can't stay on the list. So it forces me to either decide that I'm going to do it now, I'm going to dump it because it's actually not an important thing, or I'm going to pass it off to a person on my

team. And this just allows you to create all these apps for the way that you think and work. And so back to our agency point, like you're able to create the workflows and tools, anything that you now want. So now it's about what's the motivation to do it, what's the skills to go to it. But the cost of making an app dropped from months to like a weekend. Yeah, yeah. That's a very good point.

If an employee comes to you and says, like, I really want to start using AI, what would you tell them like where do they start? What is the task? Because I've heard some of the entrepreneurs ask their employees to just vibe code their dashboard, for example. Do you have like a go-to thing? I don't like vibe coding a dashboard. because when somebody vibe codes a dashboard, it's only in the front end of the dashboard.

It's never tied back to the actual inputs. So, like, it's great for, like, an hour, but then it, like, stops working because they haven't tied it back to everything most of the time. When they want to learn AI, I have found if they're asking that question, they are hesitant to try it on their own. There's something that's holding them back.

And so what I do in those cases is like, and like sometimes I worry is just like a waste of my time, but I've learned it's not. I will sit down with them or in groups of two or three and I will show them a basic task like deep, like on research. And like I'll walk them through it, like step by step. And in some ways I feel like that's a waste of my time because I'm like, you could watch a YouTube video on this that's way more effective than I am. But I found is there's something about me doing it with them that then there's something that like unlocks that they then go sore on their own. So I don't know if it's somebody walking over, if they feel forced to do it because I'm the CEO when I'm making them do it or that like, but then the act of walking them through it,

then they are unlocked to go do it and they do lots more things. Yeah. Thank you, David, for really bringing the complexity of reality. That is something that I observe and frankly am concerned. because I think the public discourse of AI is so polarized. We have to look at the upside. We have to look at the downside. But the public discourse right now is not like that.

It's either total utopia. It's going to save the world. We are going to have to work anymore. Universalized-thinking. Yeah, we're going to get paid to chill. Or, you know, this thing about F-AI, it's so bad. It's going to just displace all jobs. It's going to take away all human agency.

And these two extreme is very dangerous. I generally believe it's a technology. That means it's a tool. It's a very powerful tool. But it's a tool that humans can wield to help make things better. But we also have to be very, very vigilant about how to use the tool. We teach kids how to use tools from fire to, to knives, to, you know, the internet.

Now we have to learn that as a species, as a society. And the most important discourse is missing. And that's the discourse of the nuanced middle. Is what this tool is. How can we use it for good? How should we avoid the pitfalls? And how do we go forward as a civilization with this civilizational tool.

Yeah, and it's a revolutionary tool. I feel like it's the first tool that is, so industrial revolution automated or physical labor, right? Here we're kind of automating our intelligence, and this is why I think a lot of people are scared because they're like, oh, I thought university guarantee, not guarantees, but it's like a path to career. Now, if the cost of intelligence goes to zero, I don't know,

like what's going to happen? What do you think? One things I learned from you was that right now when we talk about AI, it is language-based. That to use your phrase is like lossy. It is you aren't going to learn how to drive a car with words. You aren't going to learn how to shoot a basketball with words. And so I think we're still in a like V1 of AI. And I think this sphere is a little over.

overhyped because AI doesn't have a set of its own values. It's our values. And so I think that means an opportunity for us to design and shape it. Do you want to share your thing? I thought it was really neat the thing you did with the doctors and they're watching their hands? Staples Preferred Business Membership built for busy business owners because you've got bigger things to think about. With Staples preferred, get free delivery. No minimums.

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a new fit that moves with you. It's everything you want denim to feel like for summer. easy, breathable, and effortlessly cool. With a fit that creates natural movement and a wide leg that feels modern, not overwhelming. Plus, that signature, wait, for this price, moment. Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg. Yeah, so I agree with David. First of all, Industrial Revolution did not automate labor.

It made labor more efficient. It scaled up labor. It did. it has shift of the labor market, but it did not automate labor. And also, we cannot imply labor is not intelligent. That is really, really a wrong premise. You know, physical labor, cognitive labor, emotional labor, human activity is deeply intertwined with human intelligence, which is still very much an unsolved mystery in nature.

We don't know the depth and nuance of human intelligence. So claiming, I know you're not claiming, but anyone out there claiming that intelligence, the cost of intelligence goes to zero, it's just an irresponsible claim because human intelligence is so deep, as David said, in addition to the more familiar language intelligence, we also have perceptual intelligence, spatial intelligence, phytical intelligence, physical intelligence, emotional intelligence. We don't have a grasp on creativity where that comes from. Everybody's creativity comes from different parts of their, not only their brain, but their

holistic life. So I think we need to be very careful of these reductive claims. I do agree that language intelligence, the LLMs, the derivatives of LLMs, are incredible powerful. You know, they're helping business intelligence, they're helping software engineering, they're helping deductive, logical reasoning, and even deeper tasks. We're not seeing a genetic use of language and software intelligence. All this is important, but it is nuanced. It is, It's complex. A lot of it can be powerfully collaborative with human intelligence,

but I would not use words like automating human intelligence or intelligence goes to zero. I am very concerned about that kind of rhetoric. The exact rhetoric that's causing people to be so anti-AI, because what they see, they see headlines of mass layoffs. And like, we don't need you anymore, that type of stuff. And this is what's causing this negativity. But the answer isn't in those cases to say, I'm going to avoid using AI or that I'm not going to use it. I think the answer is you grab the tool and then you figure out how I'm going to design it better or how I'm going to improve the tool or some of your work in hospitals. If you take a job, a job is actually like a whole set of tasks.

And I think one of your arguments is there's some tasks that you doing your job that you probably don't like. Your example I remember was a nurse has to chart all their notes. Doctors. And doctors. I have never met a nurse that's like, you know the job, the part of my job I love the most is churning. Yes. That is not why they got into the professional field. So I think the avoidance is the wrong way.

But I also think I agree with you. I think if we look at any technological shift, it's always ended up in net more jobs. The issue is just who gets those, who is it that actually gets those jobs? But the people who don't get those jobs are the people who do not adapt to it. Yeah. Right. And if you don't adapt, the outcomes are very bad. So if you look at the past with the advent of the computer, of the spreadsheet, what happens if you don't adapt is you

lose your job, your lifetime income drops by over a fifth, and your mortality rate in the first year doubles. Like, it actually hurts your health. And so the answer isn't to go into a hole. It's to push yourself to explore and improve the tools. Yeah, I totally agree with David. I think some of the words we talked about deserve to be highlighted. You use the word agency. We talk about, we talk about collaboration and empowerment. I think that's it. That's the core meaning of any technology, including a so-called godlike technology like AI,

it should be human-centered. And what does it mean? Human-centered is just a phrase. To me, the simplest, but the most profound meaning of human-centeredness is really empowerment to humanity. to including individuals, communities, and society. And that is the meaning of this technology, which brings up this point that David said is that it's a time of change.

Time of change could be a time of loss, loss of old habits, loss of comfort that we were familiar with for the past decades, loss of sense of steadiness, but that's also a time of opportunity. It's an opportunity for what's coming next. It's an opportunity for what we can make better. And how do you cross that boundary between the time of confusion and loss to time of opportunity as an individual? It is really a responsibility of each one of us to learn, embrace, upskill, be intellectually open about this opportunity. And that goes to the core of every human journey, whether you are a K-12 student or you're

already a professional. We have to embrace this together. Yeah, but also to your point of change, it's happening so fast, faster than ever. Can you tell me, If we take AI today, what type of tasks it can do already? What is still very human and what's going to happen in a year? So how fast is it moving? I mean, I think in education, it's having a tremendous impact. The biggest obstacle I'll share. So we know from the last 60 years that the best way for somebody to learn is one-on-one instruction.

So the question has to be asked, why do we sit in classrooms of 20 people, of 300 people, it's simply cost. It is too expensive to provide a doctorly to every person in the world, even though that would be amazing. That would be awesome. And so with AI, though, from the work that's been done in the last couple of years, we now know that AI can provide that personal level of instruction that is almost as good as that. It is, so much better than learning in a classroom than reading just a book on it. So then the question, and now you're able to provide that same education, the one where you sat in an elementary school classroom for $12,000 a year, or a school for $80,000 a year, once you're

undergrad, you're able to provide that same education for about $100. So the question has to be asked, when are we going to see that change in our own education? I think the biggest obstacle is not the tech. The biggest obstacle is the institutions that are afraid of that change. But I think what's going to happen, we know that if you use AI to learn, you're able to learn the same things in 60% less time. So if school says I'm going to ban AI, I'm going to ban my kids from using AI. and another school allows them to use AI in a structured way, those kids that use AI are going to be far ahead of the kids that don't.

Now, that's not a replacement for everything. You still want the in-person interaction, all the social bonds. But I think you're going to start to see a divergence in kids where one group that is open-day I is learning at a much faster rate than everyone else. And I think that's bad. And so I think it's not a tech issue, but I think what's going to happen is those schools that do not adapt in 10 years, they're going to be, they aren't going to exist because they're going to be so far behind.

And also their world will be changing so fast because of AI, like what David said, part of it they should be changing. I also adamantly believe every school, every classroom should embrace AI. Every student should be embracing AI. But I also believe that we have a collective responsibility to include them, especially the teachers and educator, educational administrators, in this discourse of AI and show them what is a viable path that maintains the goal of education. The goal of education is not a tool. The goal of education is not close book or open book exams. The goal of education is not standardized test scores.

The goal of education is building humans, and so that every individual is a meaningful contributor of their community and society and lead to a meaningful life. And this AI should not be taking any of these fundamentals away, but AI should help to achieve this goal much better, much more effectively. And this polarized extremely simplified binary conversation about AI is for cheating or not. Close book, take away AI is just not where we should be. We should be looking at how we empower teachers, how we empower students, how we restructure our classrooms, how we rethink about examinations, how we rethink about.

how we rethink about standardized tests, how we rethink about college admissions, how we rethink about resource distribution. There is a technology that's lowering costs and barriers. So how we can resource our inner cities, our rural areas, you know, globally global south. These are really important, more important topics of AI and education. that we're missing that conversation. You know what I think will help this conversation, because when I'm thinking about my kids' education,

I want to imagine a workplace where they're going to be. So when I was growing up, the workplaces, big company, you're doing this, and so in order to get there, you need to study this, this and that. Can you paint me a picture of a workplace or a company in 10 years? What does it look like? What should be people be preparing for? Agency.

I think AI will give people more agency. give people more agency. So a lot of the future of work, I think will rely on people who knows, who know how to use this tools in a very effective way. So let me give you a concrete example. One of the very coveted jobs in Silicon Valley in the past 20 years is product manager. You know, there's a lot of conversations of the shifting nature of product management job. It used to be 10 years ago, fairly standard product manager's job is more the thread between users, markets, and engineers. They're more like conductors.

They don't have to code. They fairly often, they were not software engineers. So if they want a prototype, they go to a designer. go to a software engineer, they get a prototype, and then they send the prototype to users, and they listen to the users and synthesize the feedback. And that life cycle of product management might take typically months, you know, in a company. Today, if you look at the job of product manager, actually a lot of companies are experimenting with, different things. But there are some fundamental changes. A lot of product managers just now

codes themselves. They don't have to wait to prototype from a team of people. They can use AI to design something very simple and vibe code. So that part shortens the life cycle. Doesn't mean we should get rid of designers or software engineer, but it just saves time. And so that software engineer and designers can do much more sophisticated work. Also, user side, things are shifting. AI can actually simulate user behaviors. And there are much, much more efficient ways to reach to the users, to close the loop with users. So I'm looking at these young product managers, and when I look to hire them, I look for those who are writing the wave of changes. I don't look for those product managers who are still talking about

the textbook workflow of even five years ago. So what I think the future of companies, there's a lot to imagine and depending on the company from healthcare to education to whatever industry. But I think our workforce will be much more empowered or can be much more empowered by powerful tools like AI. So that personal agency, creativity, and also the boundaries of what a person can do and cannot do is just a lot more blurred and lowered. So to me, that's kind of just fundamentally should. shift the structure of corporate America. And every student today should try to imagine who they want to be in that new structure. Yeah, it feels like you're describing entrepreneurs within

workspace. Or you're like, either you're an entrepreneur or you're an entrepreneur with an organization, which means you're handling multiple things and you're responsible for multiple things. I mean, my hypothesis on this, you will get a barbell effect. And this is what we are seen at Masterclass where you have one group that are becoming the specialists. And it used to be, like I remember in school, like I was told to pick one area and just go deep in that and that's how I build a long-term career. I think that's eroding, except if you're in the top one, if you're like the actual best. What I mean by this is if I'm a copywriter, if I'm an okay one,

anybody that now uses an LLM can do a decent job at that. But if you're the best in the world at it, or if you're in the top 1%, I can't beat you at it. And so we're seeing, A, the rise of people are a specialist that are very good other thing, and I think that extends to tons of crafts.

And then the other role we're seeing is this high agency generalist who's able to do lots of different things well and has really good skills on the judgment side on the agency side and those people when you see them

interact is really neat because they then interact with somebody who's in the top 1% at their craft and they're like whoa I couldn't do that right and I so my guess is that it's a bifurcation of those specialists

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TD's new small business banking accounts are built for how your business moves. It's how we're making banking more human. That's interesting. And I agree with you. I think both, whether you're on the specialist side or generalist side, you both have agency. Yes, that's that's that. And you should both be able to use tools in ways that's uniquely creative and deep. I'm already seeing this, right?

For example, designers, you know, they bring so much human creativity, but I see some of them use all kinds of AI tools in ways I cannot personally imagine. So I know that's where their craftsmanship comes. And also the word entrepreneurial, in Silicon Valley, that's almost like, I'm going to do a Delaware Incorporated startup, and that's the label entrepreneur. And I disagree. I think the word entrepreneur is very much a synonym to agency. You know, it doesn't matter.

You can be a doctor, specialty doctor. You can be a K-12 teacher, but agency is the key. And in the face of a technology that is so cognitively advanced, have, be brave, have your human agency and command that technology. Use that technology. Get familiar with that technology. Don't be afraid. Don't shy away from it. Because that's where the wheels of history is turning towards the future. And I think everybody, it doesn't have to be a Silicon Valley founder. Everybody can be entrepreneurial for their craftsmanship or whatever they want to do. You mentioned so many tools, like use tools, use tools. Can you give me an example of some of the tools that have been transformational to your job? Obviously, all kinds of, from Chad GPT to Gemini to Cloud, I use it in many different ways. They have so many features from helping me to study some deep topics or to have a conversation.

Here's a fun example. I'm in charge of laundry in my household. So every weekend, I have to do loads and loads of laundry. And it used to be my audiobook type, but sometimes, sometimes I get bored just listening to audiobook, and just about a few months ago, I realized I can have a conversation of a deep topic with AI as I was just folding laundry. And that has been so much fun. Somehow it's even more motivating for me to go fold laundry because I can have me time with AI

to learn anything I want. And of course, software engineering has been completely. transformed. And also, you know, on the art and design side, I mean, World Labs, we are creating models to help our creators and to imagine 3D worlds and all that. So we see also see change in the creative world. Once again, that's also a very contentious area because some companies have positioned AI creative tools as if it's a replacement. And I just deeply, deeply protest that positioning. I think that human creativity, even just on the visual side, human creativity is so vast, but even just on the visual design side, is profoundly intertwined

with our emotional intelligence, with the story we bring, with the values we bring, each creators bring. I just think AI is such a powerful tool to help them solicit them, enhance us, yeah. You know, express their creativity instead of to replace it. Totally. Do you feel AI can never be very smart until it figures out spatial intelligence? Yeah, so this is what work I'm doing now. in World Labs. So what is spatial intelligence? Spatial intelligence is a term that encompasses

multiple abilities today that humans display in an environment like this one, 3D environment. If we look at movement, we call it 4D environment. We can understand what's going on. I see people. I see equipment. I see this beautiful home. This is the understanding part of spatial intelligence. We can reason if I want to go and, you know, go grab a bottle of water in the fridge, I have to reason about the space, reason about I can go up the staircase, I can recognize the fridge, I reason about my movement, so that's reasoning. That's another part of spatial intelligence. A third part of spatial intelligence is generation, is that in my mind's eye, even though I'm not seeing your living room.

But I actually have a view of what that living room looks like. If I'm a better artist, I can actually generate a lot of visual 2D or 3D or 4D visual artifacts and pieces. So humans can generate a lot of space. And the fourth, last but not the least, a part of spatial intelligence. sorry, spatial intelligence is interactivity, is how I focus on interacting with the space, right? Like how, again, laundry folding, that's my favorite weekend activity these days. That's deeply spatial.

How you fold each piece of garment and now you hand them in the closet and all that is highly interactive. So spatial intelligence is these four things, understanding, reasoning, generation, and interaction. And we are working on that. We have made tremendous progress. I'm saying collective we. You know, today you use, say, nanobanana or if you use GPT image, that tool can actually help you to generate a lot of 2D imagery. It can actually explain to you what unknown flower is in your garden.

That understanding is quite advanced. It can help you to reason. Now we can actually draw figures in AI tools. The generation part, right now the more mature products on the 2D side, what World Labs is doing is on the 3D side. 3D is so fundamental for robotic interaction for truly controllable creativity, such as design, architecture, game development, VFX. So that's the piece we are working on.

Is it separate from LLMs? Like, I mean, do LLMs have their limit and then world models step in? Yes and no. I think they're complementary. You can think about humans. right, just as you were saying, to put a basketball in the hoop. First of all, that's such a fast action that people don't, like, sit there and think and talk in their head.

But I do think that is a, even that act itself is a highly complex, intelligent moment where language reasoning come in because you probably as an athlete, you are, you are clearly aware of this scoring this or missing this, what it means to the game or to the moment. And some of that is probably going on in the language way. But seeing the court, seeing the other players, and aiming the ball, that is deeply spatial. And then orienting your body,

like knowing how to make that move is deeply, physical. So many things we do in life is actually a mixture of language, linguistic, intelligence, spatial intelligence, and physical intelligence. So to me, they're very complementary. They work together. I do deeply believe spatial is a huge piece of it. Evolution took 500 million plus years to get spatial intelligence to maturity. It took much shorter time for language intelligence. So it's a very profound, ancient, fundamental, intelligent capability of animals and humans. And how far are we from understanding the fullness of it, like 100% of? Wow. As a scientist, I never know what's 100%, because science itself is pushing the boundaries of unknown.

If the goal post is human intelligence, the challenges, we don't even know how far human intelligence is, right? We never know the boundary of human intelligence. But if you think the daily capability of human intelligence, humans, the average capabilities. Laundry folding. Right. The cooking omelet, the laundry folding, the plain basketball. How far are we? We're not there yet.

But is it going to take 100 years? I don't think so. My goal is we can get there in my lifetime. And I think a lot of people are working on that. So that put a kind of a bound, right? I don't think it will take 100 years. It might not even take 50 years, but it's not going to take one year either.

What is your estimate? When does Dr. Fayfay Lee retire from laundry folding on Sundays? How many years? Yesterday. Like I said, I don't know. Laundry folding itself is also involves physical embodiment. So that's that that also involves sensor technology and hardware technology, so that goes a little bit more complex.

But again, I'm hoping it's our lifetime. Yeah, me too. As a mom, I'm hoping. I mean, I know this is a term that you avoid for a host of factors, but my hypothesis would be you can't get anywhere close to what AGI, which I know is the word that you avoid for host reasons, is you can't even get close to it until we do the spatial intelligence. Because that's to read people, that's to interact in the world. Yeah.

You know, look, I'm not going to find the popularity of this word. It's just as a scholar, we always, the field in the academic world is called artificial intelligence. It's not scientifically rigorously clear what the G means here. But whatever, that's just a word. It's just a nickname, I guess. Yeah, I agree with you, David. I think AI or intelligence is complex.

I don't think the picture of AI will be complete without spatial intelligence. So we mentioned agency so many times today. David, as someone who runs an educational company, what would be your advice for people who want to work on their agency? How do you even teach your kids' agency? It's a really good question. The research I've looked into it a lot is not quite there yet. So we don't know exactly how to do it. We have hypotheses.

And if you break down agency into individual parts, we then have clues. for it. So, for example, we know to be able to feel safe to actually take risks is an important part of it. We know that being able to fail and learn from those is a big part of agency. We know the resilience to get back up is really important part of it. We know that there's a curiosity in the world that's also a really big part of it. There's also things of like fundamental needs to want to solve a thing or to impress someone, which isn't necessarily the best traits, but those things drive, if you need to solve a problem issue or whatever's going to drive you to solve that is going to help you force

you to find agency. I think the research I've seen is much more on the qualitative side of what drives agency, things people will say. And there's some evidence for this. It's just weak. It's you want to put yourself in places that are going to be hard and new for you. So you want to get, and that starts as a kid, right? You want to be in a world that you have the fundamentals of love and food and sleep and meddle. mental health are provided for you there. We know also that you can incentivize it too. So I think, you know, we have done things where you get additional comp if you do this thing. Comp does push you to do things on it. But agency itself, from my own experience, so much of life in society, we are taught to seek praise.

If you think about it as kids, praise from our moms and dads. School praise from our instructors, jobs from our bosses. And having agency, and that, to your point, that entrepreneurialism that isn't just for entrepreneurs, it's almost a rejection of that societal value or push to be praised. I remember when I started Masterclass, everybody told me it was an impossible idea and a bad idea. And that was really hard for me for somebody who sought praise for most of my life. But then what I had to realize and change was to, if you have an idea that everybody thinks it's good, it's probably not a good idea

and that you actually to have agency and to be an entrepreneur you have to chase what other people think is actually impossible and then now as entrepreneur when somebody says something's impossible

I'm like oh that's what I'm going to do I'm going to die more into that right and so I think it's like a fundamental shift and it comes from a lot of things that like I wish I knew if I teach you these four things you're now going to have high agency it's more complicated than that

yeah totally I think you said it beautifully. Yeah. You have this aspect of, which I feel like is an aspect of agency, independent thinking. You wrote this substack where you're teaching people to like switch everything off, make your own decisions, and generate your own thoughts. What I feel like as someone who's been taught to respond to praise, it's so scary. Because if it's contrarian to most of your friends and you're like come out with this opinion and they.

disagree with you, how do you train that muscle? Because I feel so important for agency as well. Well, this question goes into the heart of family values. How do I personally train that muscle for me, my kids, my students, is everything David said. It's encouragement is, you know, as simple as don't be lazy. I know that people my generation lament about there's too much internet, there's too much social, there's too much AI. I actually have a contrary in view. I think our new generation, our next generations, I'm actually a little envious of them

because I think their world is much more heterogeneous. That if you're used to being on Twitter slash X, you're used to being on Twitter. slash X, you're used to being on Insta or TikTok, you start to realize the world is full of voices. Instead of that one teacher or one parent when the world was smaller and narrower. So our new generation of young people are natively born into a world full of voices, full of opinions, full of possibilities. And that can be daunting. That can be, if you're misguided, we know I'm not saying,

I mean, there's a lot of issues in social media and all that. But that can be also an opportunity because you kind of, you can use this reality to remind the young generation, look, it's your voice that matters. Because, you know, there's no authoritarian voice or tiny number of people holds the megaphone, right? And that can be used to encourage young generation to re-examine the century they're living in. And this is a century of a lot of tools that can give you agency. This is a century of your voice matter more than it.

anybody else's voice if you believe in that. And that's very different from our generation. Do you have anything like that, like an unlock for people who are curious about AI? Just starting. So first of all, if it's narrowly about my employee, I mean, I look. They probably are working for you. Yeah. If they're not using AI, they're going on there.

More AI than I do. So that's just a moot question for a deep AI tech startup like World Labs. But I do want to turn that question to talk to those who are more in the public, especially the generation right now who you're already professionals. You are teachers, nurses, you know, accountants, whoever you are. And the public discourse, like we said earlier, is so polarized. You don't really, other than anxiety, you don't really know. how you can get to AI.

I think I do want to encourage people who feel that way, is that find a kid, either your own kid or your nephew or your niece, that they are likely to be younger than 25-year-old. Almost all of them are already using AI in some way. and be curious, ask them to just show you how they use AI. And don't worry about this as a technology, but be curious about the future world that they will live in. Your kid will be living, your grandkids will be living in,

your student will be living in, and try to just imagine that you're going to take that journey into that world anyway. and they can be your guide. And just not worry about that I never learned computer science or I don't know which app I can open. Just let the young person in your life who you already trust or have a relationship with. Hold your hand for a weekend or for a session

and show you that this is a world that's not that scary if you actually know what it is. can be empowering. And if you do find it troublesome, if you do find it imperfect, by knowing it, by knowing where these issues are, your voice can be heard better. Absolutely. I think that's an amazing ending to this. Thank you so much. Stay curious. Develop your agency, work on it. And thank you so much for input and for your work. Thank you. If you want a $3,000 a month payday for life, what would you feel free to do? Maybe take a long weekend, every weekend, or try a bunch of new hobbies.

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