SmartLess - "Alejandro Iñárritu"

Episode Date: January 2, 2023

We suspend reality with the one and only Alejandro Iñárritu, discussing bear attacks, finger dexterity exercises, and a little bit about filmmaking. In the words of Alejandro, “turn off your co-pilot of rational demandings and just let yourself go.Please support us by supporting our sponsors.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

2023, 2023. Happy New Year, Happy New Year, Happy New Year. Is it 23 or is it 22? It's 23. Welcome. I've been here for a minute and I just want to welcome you guys. I was waiting for you guys to get here. Cool, right? It's pretty cool. It seems, feels a little bit like last year, but... No, it's way different. Also, the episodes are way different too. It's so insane. Come on, join me. Welcome to Smart Less. Smart.

Less. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Yeah, hi, guys. Hey. Sean and I were just, I'm getting down a late breakfast here with the oatmeal.

He doesn't. It's so disgusting. He says he doesn't. Listen, sloppy Joe, you eat the worst crap in the world, and you won't eat oatmeal? No, when I was really young, I had issues about being so thin. And like, you know, I think we mentioned this before. I used to get made fun of for being super skinny. Right.

And so I would eat tons of oatmeal and milkshakes and ice cream and burgers. And I couldn't gain. Oatmeal doesn't make you fat. No, but oatmeal had a lot of protein in it. So I was trying to like gain weight and muscle weight and all that. But I just couldn't handle it. But it's so good. Let's take a look.

Let's take a look in that bowl again. Let's just look at it. It would help clean out all of the garbage you put in your system, Sean. I know that's true. You know, you get like that little bike license plate out of you. You know,

that says eight wheeler on it. What do you usually have for breakfast? Do you, are you a breakfast guy? Well, remember last time I said I had chili and cornbread? Oh, right, right. But usually, because I never really eat breakfast. I usually wait until, like, lunch to eat something,

and then I'll eat, like, you know, like, tuna fish sandwich or whatever. So that's kind of my breakfast. Willie, you're not a breakfast guy, are you? No, it depends. Sometimes on the weekend I am. I'm a late morning little snack. And will you cook up a breakfast for the kids? Are you one of those guys?

I don't usually cook up, like, school day. They don't want breakfast now because they're older in the morning before school, so they'll have, like, toast. Well, we FaceTimed last week at 10 o'clock at night and Abel was in the background. Eating cereal.

And I'm like, Abel, what are you eating? He's like, cereal. Yeah. At 10 o'clock at night. I love cereal at night. I love cereal. They both do, both the kids, we eat dinner so early,

so both of the older kids generally hit that thing where at about 8, 9 o'clock they get real snacky. But will you worry about them going to school without food? Like, I've always got like a power bar for the girls in the car going to school, making sure they got something. I always make sure that they eat something at home.

They sit at the counter and eat something at home before they go. Usually like a cereal yogurt with granola or some kind of a cereal or a toast. Or a sugary cereal. I've seen your pantry. Yeah. Yeah, I know you've seen my, but I think you have the wrong impression.

It's envy. Wrong impression? So when I'm looking at Frosted Flakes, it's not really Frosted Flakes? No, because like for instance, the Frosted Flakes that you're referring to have been in that container. No, not three boxes.

At all. And have been there for so long. This is just above the Oreos, right? It's just above the three different kinds of Oreos? By the way, the Oreos are in those little packages. And they were, again, they were for the kids for school. They were snacks. I can't remember the last time I saw somebody in this house eating Oreos.

I think it was you when you came in and grabbed them. Yeah, well, I've run into your pantry. This is my first stop because we have, you know, oats and barley and quinoa at this house, which I love, but I do like to shake it up every once in a while. I love it. Remember when we had dinner a while ago, Jay, and I said, before I come over, can Amanda please get me a Coca-Cola?

Yeah, I think she did. She bought a few of them. Yeah. All right. Listen. Yeah. I'm pulling up my – listen Yeah. I'm pulling up my... Listen up. I'm pulling up my...

I spent some time on this intro here. This is your guest. Yeah. This is not some silly guest. Tighten up. Today we've got a guest that is the closest thing to a magician that we've ever had. Okay? Well, he doesn't pull bunnies out of hats or miraculously saw women in half. He is able to magically take us into environments and experiences that not only feel and look real, but they manage to access our most protected and personal places of thought and emotion. He does this with incredible writing, extraordinary images, and raw performances.

He has received five Academy Awards, including Best Director in Back-to-Back Years. Only the third person ever do that. He's the youngest of seven kids. He was kicked out of high school. He became a radio DJ. He became a cargo boat sailor. He eventually found a camera to play with. And thank God, because this man has brought us some of the best films ever made. Films like Babel, Birdman, The Revenant, and his latest and perhaps greatest, Bardo. Please welcome one of my heroes, Alejandro Iñárritu. No way.

Alejandro? How are you guys? Good morning. Hello. Good morning. Yes. Oh, my God. We're going to class it up today.

You really classed it up. Right? This is incredible. These guys, they can't. I've never heard them so quiet. They're stunned. I know. I was like, the second you started naming the films,

I was like, are you kidding me? Yeah, you thought it was a joke. So I saw Bardo last night, and it truly is, I think, given even with all the films that you've done, it could be your best. Do you feel like, I think I've read something where you said that you think it might be your best and that's saying something.

Well, first of all, thank you for that incredible, generous introduction that you gave. I can't wait. This is our strategy though. We build you up and then we're going to hit you with some really embarrassing questions. And I was just like having a hungry, just listening to you about the breakfast.

About breakfast. I have some chilaquiles, guys. That's the Mexican way to go in the morning. Chilaquiles are in your movie. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Chilaquiles and frijoles.

So what do you think? Do you think Bardo's your best? It's a big statement. You know, the thing is, what I felt about Bardo and I feel about Bardo is that I think it's the film that I have spent

much more time with cooking it you know preparing it and conceiving it and then all the things that I have learned I think that technically and how to say things, the material or the fabric of this film was very complex.

So I was very happy just to have made it, you know, that I could turn that thing into something. And that's why I consider that, yeah, I think it's my, you know, the film that I felt that I have accomplished in a better way or in a much more honest way close to my heart. You know, that's why I consider it that. You felt that maybe you asked yourself to bring everything that you have learned thus far technically and also, I mean, emotionally and spiritually. I mean, it is. So just for you, Sean and Will, and also the listeners, Bardo is, and I had to look this up, it is a, and correct me if I'm wrong, Alejandro, it is a Tibetan phrase that means or describes the place post-death and pre-rebirth or reincarnation.

So it's sort of that, some people call it... Purgatory? Yeah, thank you. Purgatory or, well, Purgatory is a place between heaven and hell, I think. But so the film spends a lot of time or toggles back and forth between what could be real or could be this nether place, or I don't think that that's spoiling anything

alejandro i hope it's not but um it obviously lends itself to a lot of filmmaking techniques uh both visually i can't wait to see this so in just sort of the the the storylines of things uh it's it's it's very very beautifully uh complex uh not not, not difficult, but just so rewarding. It does ask of you everything that you've learned, certainly, it seems. Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you very much for that, Jason. Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, basically in the Catholic tradition is kind of what we know as limbo,

which is that kind of purgatory where little kids that are not baptized, they go after if they die. But it's a very narrow kind of conception. And Bardo in the Buddhist tradition is exactly that. When something dies, you know, something is transforming to another place, but it's in the between, you know. It's exactly in the middle point before to becoming something. And that's kind of the concept of that word, the way I wanted to use it. Yeah, it's so exciting.

As a viewer, you never know whether it is current time or a flashback or real or imagined or dreamscape or not. Do you remember the Adrian Line film, guys, Jacob's Ladder? Sure, yeah. Where it's basically about, you don't know until the end that where we have been is on this guy's deathbed. He's sort of purgatory. But it allows the film to travel in so many crazy spaces.

And talk to me a little bit about the writing process of that, the not only putting in all of your, you know, clearly deeply felt emotional places, but also playing with time and the complexity of the nonlinear aspect. You're constantly flashing forwards or back or real or unreal. Was that difficult or was it simple for you? aspect you're constantly flashing forwards or back or or real or unreal was that was that difficult or was it simple for you no actually i think was one of the most um challenging things i will say and scary because there was no recipe you know because structurally you know in the film you can play very well with flashbacks or flash heads andeads, and they are very, I would say, constructed in a way

that they are very, in a way, immediately you recognize that the film has shifted or traveled to another thing. You can use different photography or different things to point out that kind of thing. So these are more conventional narratives or grammatical ways that you can use in filmmaking. And I think I love that film, by the way. I haven't seen it in a long time.

Now you're going to see it again. I remember Jacob's Ladder was amazing with Tim Robbins, right? Yeah, yeah. It was Tim Robbins. But in this case, the challenge was this film, Bardo, is a walk in the consciousness of somebody, right? Which is all memories and images and reflections and thoughts and emotions

are basically interacting simultaneously and coexisting in the way when we dream, you know, and we are, you know, when you have a lucid dream, that you are aware that you are dreaming, you know that things are off or some person is in a place that should not be there. Or maybe you are in your uncle's house, but one guy is there and then the house becomes something else in your garden. And you have a little bit of control over it too sometimes in a dream, right?

Like you do in this film. Well, you know, really quick, a super quick story about jimmy burroughs you know james burroughs all under he's he's a tv director friend of ours um i was in new york and uh i just flown there i was super super super tired from working all week and then the flight and everything i laid down for a nap in the hotel and in my dream uh our sweet friend jimmy burrow something he was like having a heart attack or something in my dream i was like oh no i gotta help him i gotta help him so i pick up the you know in the dream i'm like i'm dialing 911 i call the ambulance everybody comes it's so freaky and then the hotel phone rings and it wakes

me up for my nap and i go hello and they say yeah 9-1-1 what's your emergency so i called wow while you were while you were sleeping while i was sleeping but it seems so like sleepwalking yeah isn't it great that i've never that's never happened to me before yeah it's uh dreams are an incredible place i think we we just had we had uh uh james cameron on uh on the podcast the other day uh alondra and i think we said to him he would be an incredible filmmaker as would you to tackle dreams to to to do a film about dreams it would take somebody of of your skill or his to to tackle all that it's a a rich place for for a film um all right so um you your films uh benefit so much from your visual strategy.

Can you trace that back? You certainly didn't learn that in your brief radio career, did you? Where did you get that taste for visuals and the technical know-how of it? I will say that I'm still trying to learn a lot. I think my guide always has been music. You know, I think I have a better ear. And I try to first kind of listen to the film and kind of determine what kind of genre it is

and what is the rhythm and the sound and the beat. And then the question that I have been much more always is challenging for me is the point of view you know the which point of view I would like to be putting the audience and that is what really makes me decide how I'm going to shoot so those two things really helped me to understand how I want the audience to live the experience because I would like them to live depending in the point of view, which sometimes get complicated when you have two, three characters or four characters in a scene. So you want to have the, you know, to receive or to land the emotional kind of challenge of a scene in somebody's. And that is always a tough question for me that I have to answer.

And then I decide where I put the camera and how open. And then about the context, because in the first films I did, I normally tend to isolate the characters. And I was very keen into the close-ups, which I think is an incredible landscape to show everything and emotional and everything what's going on. But then little by little in the last three films, I have been very obsessed about the context of the character. You know, what really make that character a character? And so then I have been trying to involve more and more the context of the situation.

And I have been now rejecting every lens that is more than 21. I felt that it's like a long lens. You know what I feel like? Yeah, yeah. We'll be right back. SmartLess is brought to you in part by Airbnb. Okay. We all know Sean.

We love him. He's a great guy. Sean Hayes. From the TV and the films and the Smart List podcast. But guess what? Sean Hayes, he's got a big family reunion coming up, and he has booked an Airbnb for his family. Sick idea. That's so good. How can you figure out a way to get everybody together in

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at Rakuten.ca or get the Rakuten app. That's R-A-K-U-T-E-N. Hi, I'm Anna. And I'm Emily. We're the hosts of Wanderers Podcast Terribly Famous, a show where we bring you outrageous true stories about our most famous celebrities. And our latest season is all about the one and only Katie Price. You might think you know her, you might have an opinion,

but there is way more to the former glamour model than just her cup size. Yes, this is a woman who's gone from pin-up to publishing sensation. We all have teenage dreams, and for Katie it was simple, massive fame and everlasting love. I just wanted to kiss a boy just one boy. Well she does kiss a few boys but there are plenty of bumps along the way and when I say bumps I mean terrible boyfriend choices, secret dates with spiky haired pop stars and a tabloid press that wants to tear her apart at every opportunity. And she surprises even herself

when suddenly she becomes a role model for a whole new generation of young women who want to be just like her. Want to hear more? Follow Terribly Famous wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and add free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. And now back to the show. Can I talk to you a little bit about, because it's funny you say that because I forget, And now, back to the show. Can I talk to you a little bit about, because it's funny you say that, because I forget, we were talking to somebody,

but I think we were talking to a director about it, about this idea of, if you look at a lot of those films from the 70s, like even Spielberg in the 70s, one thing that comes to mind is like Close Encounters. So many of those scenes played with virtually no coverage at all. Right. And everybody's talking over each other.

Everybody's talking over each other, and you had these scenes that played out in these big sort of, you know, almost masters, and sometimes, you know, characters would come in and out of the scene. Robert Altman did a lot of that, and Woody Allen. Yeah, and then Robert Altman did that as well. And so that you got to talk about context. I mean, you got to kind of see so much of the world.

And we've become, and not to get too deep in the woods, in the weeds on this, but do you feel like we've become too, I think, for my taste, too dependent on close-ups? Especially when you come to things like comedy. Yeah. Because it ends up, I love seeing two, at least two characters in the same frame together reacting off each other in a way that doesn't feel like

you're telling me how I should be reacting to this. You allow the scene to play out and I can decide for myself what I feel about the story and their relationship. Yes, I think you're right. I think you're right. I think like if you see Billy Wilder, for example, comedies, he always was like really much more relaxed and the things were happening in front of you. And as you said, the characters come close to the camera

or further, and that is kind of the blocking of that. And Spielberg is the master of blocking actors, I think. Staging, right? Staging is just so so incredible i think he's the best in the world yeah well i feel the same way like whenever there's like a a film about like dance or like i'm watching like a cheerleading thing on espn or whatever we're like the camera like if you go in close to watch a whole dance number it's like no i can't see the whole The whole point of a dance number

is to see everybody doing it at the same time. So that it's five, six... Seven, eight. And not cut to seven, eight. You want to see five, six, seven, eight in the same frame. No, but I do. I think that that's true.

And I think that we have been... You know, it's so funny when you go and you work. Alejandro, my experience as an actor, certainly, is when you go and you work. Alejandro, my experience as an actress, certainly, is when you go and you work on stuff, people are so scared and everybody's so nervous now of protect. So it's always like for protection. Well, we're just going to do... So that when I go and do stuff on my own

and I go where I'm kind of the boss or I'm running the show or whatever, and they'll go like, well, we should get the other thing. I go, no, no, no, I'm never of the boss or I'm running the show or whatever. And they'll go like, well, we should get the other thing. I go, no, no, no, I'm never going to use it. Well, shouldn't we get just to have it? I go, no, I don't give a shit. I'm never going to use it.

Fucking I know how I'm going to cut it and I don't give a shit. Well, I think it would be really important. And you want to be like, to you. Yeah, and the one shot, the one-er is is is super good for that right um you use that a lot right with it you don't even you don't even give yourself an option in the editing room you're going to stay there to get it and you're going to dictate to the audience where you're looking when you're like and you never tap them out of it by making a cut you keep it all smooth in one thing so that it stays sort of meditative and you're in it yes exactly and i

think every film demands different things so not all the films needs to be that way i think again i think i learned i learned it uh to do that by by necessity in birdman that was the one that radically i knew that i i wanted to make this as an esp experience, right? It was all tied together and I wanted that the people feel in the head of Michael Keaton and it was a radical point of view of one single moment that was, again, shifting in time, but I want the people to be in his head. So I designed the whole shooting based on one single shot, obviously with stitches,

but that was a radical thing. Yeah, it was mind-blowing. Did Sam Mendes or Roger Dinkins come to you and talk to you about some of the tricks before they did 1917? No, I think Sam and Roy are masters. They know exactly what they did in 1917. I think it's something that, again,

I think it's the demand of the film, but it's very fun. I just find, too, that I agree with you when you were saying about coverage, right? To be covering yourself all the time is not healthy because then there is no... I like when there is limits, no? Like principle, not rules,

because I don't like to use rules, but principle. And if the principle of the film has a limit or a frame or borders, I think it's much more fun work that way. And you say, okay, this is going to be the principle and the design of this film.

And then you stick with that. It forces you to explore whatever rules or principles you set up. I think everybody go into that and it's much set up, I think everybody go into that and it's much more exciting, I think. I would imagine after winning or receiving the Academy Award back to back, I would imagine the pressure on you going forward

or just sort of the expectations, like you know eyes are going to be on you. Does it limit the kind of swing you want to take going forward? You know, it must be tough. Yeah, I think, yes, it's true. It's true that the expectations always, you know, play against you in some way. But at the same time, it's challenging.

After The Revenant, something that I really appreciate was that i took um a time to do a virtual reality installation that i have never done that was called carne arena yeah and it was a radical that was a very radical point of view because i put you a headset and then i put you in a in a in a in a space a big space with with um, and you were barefoot. And it was about immigrants crossing the border in the desert at dawn. And you were sensorially feeling the air of the helicopter coming. So you were walking, and basically you become the camera.

So you were a ghost floating into these 14 characters being trapped by the officers in the border. And it was very, very beautiful and very emotional because suddenly, you know, I broke the dictatorship of the frame, let's put it that way. So instead to be a hole that you see a fragment of reality, you were basically navigating and walking 360 degrees, walking with these guys.

Virtual reality, right? You could turn around and look. Yeah, exactly. And it was an incredible experience experience because it's everything that cinema is not. So I mean, these literally, you become the camera, you become the character, and then the police officer was pointing at you, you know, so wherever you move, you were really being threatened. So you become those guys in a radical way and physically your body was present there and feeling the details about it so very much i think was a big important thing for me to make this actually film you know alejandro

tell me a bit a little bit about your the impetus of doing something like that because your experience as a guy who's a filmmaker uh who who is from mexico who grew up in Mexico City, I'm assuming, yeah? Yeah. And then to make a film about this migration of people crossing, you know, the desert and doing that,

what is your relationship from that side of that perspective? You know, because, you know, we're fed all sorts of different narratives here about immigration

and people, you know, migrating north across the border and blah, blah, blah. From where you are physically, what is that perspective shift? What is your, you know, obviously you were driven to make a film and it's sort of a film experience about it. Where does that land with you? Where does that sit with you, that dynamic of this sort of migration of people?

Well, I think in L.A. where I live now and I have been living here, there's almost like 5 million Mexicans, right? And for that project, I interviewed like more than 500 immigrants with incredible, you know, heartbreaking stories. Wow. Yeah. with incredible, you know, heartbreaking stories. Wow. Yeah. There was a mom that crossed seven times to bring one by one of her daughters. And it took her 20 years working as a maid, getting money little by little to go back and then turn back.

And the way these guys abused them, like the coyotes that charged them a lot of money, and then they left them even in the other side of the border and making them believe that they are in the United States and the way they are treated. And then the most heartbreaking kind of thing is the kids that have been taking care of them here for, you know, when they are three, four years and they don't know they are not citizens, that they don't belong to nothing. And that's the real battle, you know, that suddenly they realize at 18 that they don't have any rights, that they don't have a future.

And they don't know even how to speak Spanish. And there's no way for them to go back because there is no other territory. So those stories for me has been always close to me. And obviously, you know, socially, I know many of these stories. And so I feel very close, even when my circumstances have been completely different. I have been incredibly lucky, supported, privileged. But anyway, that doesn't mean that I'm not feeling kind of close to these stories. And yeah, I mean, for me, it's just the situation of so many millions of people. It's really hard. It so many millions of people.

It's really hard. It's very hard to understand. That's actually a nice segue into a question that I've had, which is, you know, and forgive me because I'm asking because I don't know. I'm uneducated in this area. But, you know, growing up... What weighs more, a bag of Skittles or a bag of M&M's? Sorry. But, you know, growing up in Chicago and in America,

we have these tremendous resources to, you know, when I grew up in Chicago, I was like, oh, Hollywood. And, you know, there's universities and colleges now where your major can be filmmaking and everything in this country. And there are programs in other countries too. But what was it like for you as a kid? What kind of resources did you have? What kind of anything did you have what kind of

anything did you have growing up to know that this is your path to prepare for this career you mean yeah no no you can you cannot prepare i i think that i never thought that i will be living here you know our plan was after amores perros my wife and i decided to come here for one year the situation in mexico I'm from a generation that in our country there was only six to seven films being made a year, so there was no actual, you know, something that as filmmakers, Alfonso Cuarón or Guillermo del Toro or Chivo Lubezki,

we had to come to look for something that we want to pursue, which was a filmmaker career, and our country cannot provide that at that time. Security not very very good uh as it is even now so when you become a public figure it's a little challenging so in a way we have two little kids and we said well let's go one year and then 21 years has passed and it feels that it happened in one week that's part of the and that's that's what the film is kind of, that was the reason I made this film, like to clean the closet emotionally

and just to put things in order, you know? And I think you don't have to leave, you're from Toronto, right? A lot of friends, American friends that are from little towns in the South and they are living here. And when they return, all their friends or their families

stays one way that they have been evolving and transforming. And it's a huge change. I mean, that's another battle. You don't have to leave your country to feel that your past is not belonging to you anymore. Or that was another person kind of thing. Right. Yeah.

Talk to me about music. So you started with working working radio dj and interviewing some incredible people but you've also done a little bit of scoring for films before you became a director yes and then yes i also want you to talk about your the the the strategy for doing the music in birdman where the camera would actually show the drummer every once in a while. It's so inventive and so bold and so exciting for an audience member and that you're able to pull all those big swings off somehow. Just talk to me about music and film and how you enjoy writing music for films as well you know when I when I in a way writing and developing and thinking about a film as I told you I so important for me to hear the film yeah listen to the beat the rhythm and how it sounds so I always

felt that you know I was very clear with Amores Perros that it sounds like sticky fingers of the Rolling Stones for for example, that album. It was that sound that I wanted to portray. And then there are some times I listen to one album only when I'm 21 grams, I hear to Pat Metheny album that I love about, it was in a spiritual film. Well, there was something attached to some song that suddenly I get stuck to that. And are you saying that the album you listen to

or the songs you listen to creates imagery in your head? Is that what you're saying? It just creates a mood, you know? I think it's something that suddenly the sound of an album can portray you a mood and the sound in a way, there's something that makes me feel close to the pace, to the spirit of the film. And for me, an embedment, for example,

I knew that I need drums because I knew that I wanted to make a one take by that reason of the radical point of view. So being a comedy, I said, oh shit. I mean, comedy, as they said, is made in cuts, right? And it's like the rhythm, it's creating the editing room. I knew that I will not have that opportunity. So I needed a rhythm.

I need something. Or like a rim shot, right? It sort of ends a joke or ends a scene and carries you into the next one. Exactly. And then I have been very lucky because my first four films, I worked with Gustavo Santaolalla,

which is an incredible musician. And he do like minimalistic things, you know, with a couple of guitar moves and things, he just create again. I like to use very minimalistic music in that sense. And so every experience has been different. Then in Revenant, I worked with Ryuichi Sakamoto, that you cannot ask for more than the master Sakamoto

and it was another experience. And then in this one I did it with Bryce Dessner, you know, which is incredible musician. From the National? From the National, yeah. Bryce is just so eclectic. I mean, he do classical music, he do jazz, he do everything. So I was able to work with him this time and it was fantastic. And you do have all those different sounds in it.

Bryce is a super talented guy. He and those guys just did that. Well, my buddy Bon Iver just did a collab with those guys, but Jason doesn't. Do you like Bon Iver at all, Alejandro? I love Bon Iver. Oh, no kidding. Now I do. Keep going. Now I do. Keep going. Of course you do. That guy is genius. Oh, really? Bryce has just worked with Tom York, too. Yeah.

Or even with Steve Reich, you know? So he's in all these kind of genres, you know? He's crazy. Thank you, Alejandro. Thank you, Jason. Why? Who don't like Bon Iver? I just don't like the name. Jason's made fun of it for like two years

because he doesn't... Now that he thinks the cool kids like him, he's going to be all over it. No, I'm on. You said Tom York, I'm in. Oh my God. I'm rage quitting this episode. We'll be right back. In-laws, love them or hate them, you're pretty much stuck with them. And when you're a ruler in the Middle Ages, that can be a serious problem.

It might even land you dead. a serious problem. It might even land you dead. I'm Dan Jones, and on season four of This Is History, I'm telling the story of England's weirdest king, Henry III. He's in way over his head, and he's surrounded by bloodthirsty relatives with their eyes on his throne. To listen, search This Is History, and follow wherever you get your podcasts. you get your podcasts. Hello, I am Alice Levine and I am one of the hosts of Wondery's podcast, British Scandal. On our latest series, The Race to Ruin, we tell the story of a British man who took part in the first ever round the world sailing race. Good on him, I hear you say.

But there is a problem, as there always is in this show. The man in question hadn't actually sailed before oh and his boat wasn't seaworthy oh and also tiny little detail almost didn't mention it he bet his family home on making it to the finish line what ensued was one of the most complex cheating plots in british sporting history to find out the full story follow british scandal wherever you listen to podcasts or listen early and ad free-free on Wondery Plus on Apple Podcasts or the Wondery app. Beneath the veneer of the everyday lurks the realm of the spy. It's a dank, murky world full of dark corners, sinister motives and corroded morals.

A place of paranoia and infiltration, sabotage and manipulation. From Wondery, I'm Indra Varma. This is The Spy Who, a show that takes you inside the twilight realm of espionage. These are true stories you were never meant to hear, with secret operatives playing to very different rules. And now, back to the show. Let me stop you at Revenant for one second. No, the Revenant's good. And now, back to the show. Let me stop you at Revenant for one second. No, the Revenant's good. I apologize if you've answered this question on this subject before. I'm sure you have because I don't know if a sequence will ever be made that is more –

The bear fight is something that when when i was watching it i i was i knew it wasn't real obviously uh because uh leo takes a lot of risks but that one would be too much um and so i'm so i'm studying the the i saw in a big theater too and i'm looking for where is where's the cut where's the where's the special effect where how are they doing and I could not see it not once and and to your point about one take it was a one-er was it not it was all so why would you in something so technically difficult as that sequence why would you choose to to really make it even more tough by making it one take? How did you come to that decision?

I did a lot of research about the bear attacks and the description of it. There's a book, actually, of people that survived. It's a weird book with like 120 cases of people that have survived. I'd love to read that. Oh, my God. Sean's seen over 120 bear fights over a long weekend once during Pride.

I'm Santa Monica. So, when I was reading these attacks, normally it was about the cops. You know, when you cross and there are cops, they're closed. Then you know that you are screwed.

You know that you are in danger. And the description of the people, the way they felt it, the way they remembered, the way they felt, again, they experienced in a point of view of them. And it was shocking to see, you know, the fear, everything. So I said, I would love instead to rely on the cutting and in the objective point of view of a filmmaker and a camera seeing things and putting pieces together I would like again to

observe and and just to be present as if I'm witnesses that in real time which will be the most terrifying thing how somebody's been the war yeah and i remember um with berners herzo you remember his documentary and uh and that moment that bernard is sitting with the headphones and he's hearing how this guy was the war and how these guys were the war by this and i said bernard what did you hear he said alejandro you don't want toandro, you don't want to hear. He said, you don't want to tell me what I heard. And what he described to me, we were in a dinner. It was so terrifying what he described to me about that, you know, the bears, in a way, first pull out your skin, and little by little,

what I'm saying, they don't kill you immediately. They want warm meat, and so they keep you alive, and they are taking your skin off little by little so they are deboring you in pieces anyway the descriptions that i have were so terrified that i want the audience to for a moment try to put the audience in witnessing something so horrific like that so that's why i decided to do that it worked who to so so when you when you when you decided that this is what you would love to do, that's your ambition,

but then you've got to check it with who? Your visual effects supervisor or Chivo? Or who told you that this was going to be possible? Because I don't think anyone's ever seen anything like that before, and it'd be tough to see it again. I don't know if everyone's ever going to be able to do that again, but who told you that was technically possible to do? Well, I think that it's possible because I think the visual effects and the CEI has

arrived to a point that I was really, you know, worried that it will look good. But I have to credit here ILM. I think they did an amazing job by creating this incredible, believable bear with all the hair. So now the technology allows you to create something like that, but you have to just prepare it very well. You know, you have to really have a good idea how you want to make it. So we rehearsed for weeks. first of all, the blocking, and then obviously study and analyzing how really a bear will hit you, will scratch you, will do it. So we have some expertise about that.

And what I read was I was applying to what it was actually factual of the attacks of the bear. So then with Leo, we started rehearsing with a trainer, with a stunt that will be doing kind of the bear character. And we were saying, okay, now he will do that. Then he will grab it by the leg. He will drag him here. And then she and I started designing the camera move to understand what.

So little by little, we were kind of shaping the moments. And then we knew that we have to make it in one shot. So we start rehearsing with the camera, with the stunts, with Leo. And then we knew that we will have to use harnesses, you know, to... Yeah, the harnesses, the wires. He was tied up to a bunch of wires.

It had to pull them all over the place as a bear would easily pull and push and throw him all over the place. Yeah. It was very challenging because we shot that actually in the middle of the woods, you know, in Vancouver. So in a way it was, you know, we have to prepare the whole territory, the arnés, the camera didn't have to cross with that.

So again, that's a boring and technical thing that I don't think is so difficult. I just think you need to have a clear idea of what you want to achieve, and then everything almost is possible. You have to have the bare necessities. Oh, very nice. Bare necessities, Sean says. He loves a pun. Talk to me, Alejandro, about your relationship with your

collaborator, writer, Guillermo, and I don't want to say his name wrong. Arriaga. Arriaga. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about that relationship. You guys worked together on a lot of films, yeah? Yeah, we did three films together. That was this trilogy that was, we were exploring, you know,

the possibilities of structures and how, you know, people, one event in a way was affecting different lives in a different way. Sure. Or in Babel, that was extreme, you know? Is Guillermo the cinematographer or writer? The writer.

Sorry, the writer. But what I was sort of asking more, yeah, I know, right, you guys were creating this incredible trilogy, but the relationship that you guys have and how that changes over writing three films together and that process of your relationship and what that, you know, for instance, my relationship with, I'm going to mention Chappie again, my

guy that I write with whom I love and I adore. And I have such a deep connection with him because we spend so much time writing in a room together and what that relationship, anyway, you guys have written these great films together. Talk to me about your personal relationship and how it has sort of brought you guys together or how it's changed in, I don't know. I think we met in 1997. So we start developing like short stories

that end up being Amores Perros first. And it was a great time for both of us. You know what I mean? We were sharing the same kind of sensibility. Writers, Faulkner was kind of an inspiration about his rawness, raw and humanity and things. So in a way, we were sharing a lot of things during those years you

know and that was very very profound because when you share it's very hard to find a collaborator that you share points of view you know our sense it sensibilities and sources of inspiration so it was great and i think that after the the last film you know I think it was great because I was a little bit burned out about the structure and the fracture narratives, and I wanted to make a film about one single character, which for me was super unconventional, very difficult. So then it ends, you know, any creative relation sometimes finds an end or a transformation,

and then you need to find yourself. And then the next film in Beautiful, I just found two co-writers that were fantastic, which is Nicolás Jacobone, which is the one who I have been collaborating in this last film and Armando Bo. So anyway, I think for me, it was a way to be evolving and transforming.

And that relation in a way was very, very, very productive by having three films and was was great you know was great all right lastly Alejandro we've been heaping so much praise on you about how good you are at making movies what are you terrible at are you you really bad at anything uh how about sing singing or dancing or sports or anything like that what what are you worst at I I am so bad in almost everything, let me tell you. I don't believe it. The only thing that I try to attempt to do my best is to make films,

but I'm so bad. My hands are really clumsy, let me put it that way. I cannot draw, for example. I cannot draw an apple. So you don't storyboard yourself. No, I don't storyboard myself. I would love to, but I can't. And then i wanted

to be a musician and i have terrible fingers to play the guitar so i'm absolutely bad with my with my hands are clumsy so in a way the only thing that i could possibly do is what i do i think that's why i do what i do well please keep doing it you just you're you're one of our one of our greatest ever and uh i I love watching everything you do. You don't need to be good at anything. You're very kind. You make incredible films. I'm so glad that you enjoy Bardo.

I really hope that you two guys see it, and I'm very happy. Bardo is just— I'm going to see it this weekend. I can't wait. Let's go see it in a movie theater. I want to go with you and see it in a theater this time. It's just stunning. Everybody should rush out. I want to go with you and see it in a theater this time. I will totally do that. It's just stunning. Everybody should rush out.

I just want to tell you something. I think when you see it, guys, don't try to demand logic on it, okay? I mean, turn off your co-pilot of rational demandings and just let yourself go. Oh, I don't. I wake up and go to bed that way. And it goes by in about 10 minutes. It is one of the fastest watches i've ever seen too it's just it you just get transported it's it's great i can't wait uh thank

you so much for being with us today and uh no please thank you very much guys to include me in this in this in this podcast it's fantastic to talk to you and thank you very much thank you thank you thank you enjoy your day. Bye-bye. Thank you. Ciao. Bye. Well, man, I feel cultured, bathed. Yeah. Bathed in greatness. Great guy. Well, guys, thank you for letting me vomit all over my hero there.

Yeah, he's great. I know. Do you think that we'll be able to cut in any of him talking for the first 20 minutes? Was I going on? Was I going on? I was in a blackout. I loved it. I loved that. That was so cool.

No, it was good. It was good. You were obviously like super into it and he— I mean, the guy's got more talent than— I mean, I just— He could probably— If time would allow, he could probably make three or four great movies every

year. I know. It's just, it's pretty stunning. And what a nice person, too. Right? Super sweet and super sort of generous with, like, his process. Boy, do you see this movie, too. Yeah, he seems like a very calm, calm director, like a calm

presence. Like, there's some directors that are like, you know, like, I would be a terrible director, calm director, like a calm presence. Like there's some directors that are like, you know, like I would be a terrible director because they're like, what's going on? And I'd freak out. But like, he's more like, hey, we're going to make this happen and everything's going to be just fine. Sean, would you do Revenant too? Sure.

If he was like, I'm going to do Still Revan. Pending script approval. Still Revin'. Would you do a movie called Bear Attack? And the whole movie is just you. Yeah, we can film it in my bedroom. You running from Scotty. You wrestling Scotty, yeah.

Let's be honest, that's Cub Attack. That is Cub Attack, which is a lot easier to get out of. Do you speak, but you don't speak bear, do you? You're not bilingual. Bye. Bye. Very nice. Smart.

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