SmartLess - “Barry Sonnenfeld”

Episode Date: January 3, 2022

Barry Sonnenfeld, call your mother! The game-changing Director and Cinematographer joins us this week to teach us the rules: don’t have surgery on your knee, talk faster, and never pan – always track.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey guys, here comes a brand new episode of SmartLess. We're dropping the ball because it's right around New Year's and I'm about to drop mine too. And here I come into a ball drop Bateman for SmartLess. Smart. Yes. Smart. Yes.

Smart. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Smart. Yes. Smart. Yes. Look at you, Will. You're in London. London. Yeah.

London. Oh, is that your, that's a good, do it again. London. Oh my God. Right? I need some more. Guys, I can really do it. Will used to have the funniest on your cell phone, well, years ago.

You had the song London Calling and every time as your ringtone and that, and every time it rang, you, so stupid, you would go, sorry guys, that's London Calling. London Calling. Sorry. Oh. Will's the funniest. He's super funny, you guys. Stupid dick.

Oh, I'm showing. Are we, we got a shake going? You little protein shake? Yes. I have. You just come from a birthday party? What's going on? You having a shamrock shake?

It's a little early. I don't, it's not March yet. Wait. This is what's in here. A banana, coconut milk, an apple, a pear, ice and just a suggestion of vanilla extract. Just a sneeze of extract. Well, what time is it there in London? It is six, just after six PM.

So you're exhausted. You're winding down. I am exhausted. Yeah. I'm winding down. I've had a long day of, of writing with Chappie. That's what you're doing over there. You went to London to write or to learn how to write.

Yeah. And that and maybe watching some cricket, the T20 cricket as well. Wait a second. I can't do, I can't, I've had to deal with you falling in love with English football. Yeah. And pretend to be excited for your new passion. Is it going to be cricket now too? And should we hold the space for rugby?

I don't know what to tell you. That's a lot. That's a lot of space. It is. It is a lot. I just have baseball. That's all I ask you guys to indulge me with. You know, speaking of baseball, I watched that just as an aside, I texted both of you

guys. I watched, I finished that Inburns documentary on Muhammad Ali. Muhammad Ali. Yeah. I know. I saw, I saw it. I can't wait to watch it. It was, it was really, really good.

What a, you know, he was a boxer, not a baseball player. You started this with speaking of baseball, but because he made, because I remember you got into baseball, you said your passion for baseball deepened when you watched the documentary about baseball that Ken did. So I was just drawing a line there. You know, I'm just trying to connect some dots, you know, that's what we do here on smart list is we, I feel like we just connect dots wherever we can. And they're so far apart.

And connecting dots, I'm about to connect some dots between myself and our guests today. Our guest today is somebody that I've now worked with and I just figured out, I guess it's three times technically, not technically three times that we've worked together. He's an incredible director. He's an even better person. He's super interesting. I like him a lot personally, in addition to liking what he does as a director. And he, he's a, he came to directing, Jason, I think that you're really going to enjoy

this because as you become, you know, directing becomes a bigger and bigger part of your life. This is somebody that you can talk to about his own evolution as a director. He started as a DP, a cinematographer and directed some of the more memorable films in the last 50, 100 years. I almost want to say cult films, but these are, these are huge cultural films. He's the DP on, on films such as, well, I don't want to get into directing cause you'll know exactly who it is. So I'm going to say he, he was a cinematographer on Miller's Crossing on Raising Arizona.

He started his first film with them was with Joel and Ethan Cohn was blood simple and then he directed incredible films. Shut up and let's hear him. It's my friend Barry Sonnenfeld. Oh wow. Hello. Hello Barry Sonnenfeld. Oh my God.

Hey, I have a request right off the bat. Yeah. I want you to call me right now on my phone so you can hear my ringtone, which I think is even better than Will's. If you got a second. Sure. Somebody in America want to do that. You do it.

I bet my T wants to do it. So my T can call me on 778. I'm going to wait. I'm going to do it right now. Wait. Okay. Unknown caller. You just answer the phone.

Answer it right now. Answer the phone. Barry, where are you? Barry, answer the phone. Okay. Can you name who that is calling me? Barry, answer the phone. You just answer the phone.

Answer it. Oh God. Who is that? Who is that? Who is that? I lived in Telluride, Colorado for decades. They have an annual film festival. I went to undergraduate school with your friend Ken Burns.

Ken was having lunch with Werner Herzog, one of the great voices on the planet. So I went up to Werner and I said, Werner, you're going to record my ringtone. And it took like 30 takes. He kept improvising. I said, no, just say Barry, answer the phone. And then he went on and on. He'd get into my mother. So anyway, this ringtone just frightens the hell out of anyone because it's so obnoxious.

I'm so proud of you. Do you leave it on ringer when you're shooting on set? You know, everyone's got to go to vibrate on that. You should leave that one on. It's worth interrupting. Believe me. I do. I do.

It's worth ruining takes just like Werner's voice up there. Oh my God. Well, I'm such an enormous fan of yours, Barry. I'm so, so thrilled that I get to ask you questions and hear you for an hour. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us. Do you guys know each other? Jason and Sean, do you guys know Barry at all?

I've never met. We've never met. We've never had the pleasure of meeting. I'm such a big fan. And you know what? I just watched a Shmigadoon and it's so fantastic. What the hell is Shmigadoon? So hard throughout that whole thing.

It was so fucking funny. Well, thank you. First of all, you should know I hate musical theater. I hate musicals. Yeah. No, it came through in the show. That's why we're friends, Barry. That's why we're friends.

It's an eight part Apple series, a half hour each episode. And it's about Cecily Strong and Keegan-Michael Key are having problems with their relationship. They go on this hike together, end up in this magical kingdom, kind of based a little bit on Brigadoon called Shmigadoon, where everyone sings in musical theater. So there's Alan Cumming, Kristen Chenoweth, Marty Short. It's a great group, Aaron's Vite. So we had all these great musical theater people. And I hated musicals and I would go to the showrunner every day.

I directed them, but Cinco Paul wrote them and I'd say, do we really need this song? And he would get upset and then we would shoot it. But. That's so funny. Listener, I wish you could see this. Barry has taken his ring light and he's pulled it over. He's created a key side and a fill side. Yeah.

It's just, the man's just got visual taste. I just got to say, Jason, you didn't do that. Yeah. I did. No, I'm terribly top lit and it's hitting my big fat ball nose. There's a lot wrong. There's a really a lot wrong. It's just us.

I mean, Jason looks like he's doing, you know, when you've got to insert the shot of the security cam, he looks like he's got that going. I literally. There's no art. There's no art to what you're doing. I mean, this is, this, I built this set. It's beautiful. Wait, so Barry, Barry, let's start at the beginning if we can just for a second, because

I want to get into, to your, you know, your beginnings in getting into film and, you know, we've talked about it before. I know you have a lot of, you've had an interesting path to say the least, which started with, you went to film school. You went to NYU, graduate film school, graduate film school, grew up in New York, NYU graduate film school. And then your, your first foray into filmmaking was in the pornographic world. Is that true?

Right. That's not true. And you also, I write about in the book that we used a really bad light for our film light. You should use like a little snooted pinhole camera just to illuminate the insertion area. But we used a 750 watt soft light, which just flooded the thighs and it was just so wrong. So ugly. Wait, this is fast. I didn't know this about you.

Okay. So you get out of film school and this is pre-video, you know, there were only 35 millimeter cameras in 16. So we were shooting. So I bought, when I got out of film school, I bought a U16 millimeter camera, a CP16 reflex thinking if I owned a camera, I could call myself a cameraman without being like the dilaton, right? And my buddy who I bought this used camera with got us a job shooting nine feature length

porno's in nine days. And we blocked shot. That's funny. What's that moment? Like how do you, how do you make that move? And I know you're just paying your dues. How do you make your move from that? And then you start getting into the kinds of films that you want to do.

Yeah, because it wasn't porno's. And by the way, if porno's were released with smell or vision, no one would ever watch a porno again. But so the same 16 millimeter camera, I am at a Christmas party where there's no one but wasps and one other Jew who looks a little bit like Howard Stern and it's Joel Cohen. We sort of smell each other. We approach each other and we start chatting. Well, Vimp Vendors, an American friend had just come out, which was a really great movie

and we were talking about it. And Joel was telling me that he and his brother Ethan had just written blood simple and they were going to shoot a trailer as if it were a finished movie and use that trailer to raise 750 grand to then go to Austin and shoot this feature. And I said to Joel, well, I own a camera and he said, you're hired. So I shot the trailer for blood simple. We loved working together. The trailer looked great.

We became friends. Joel, Ethan and I took a year. We raised 750 grand and the first day on the set of blood simple was the first day that Joel, Ethan or I had ever been on a feature film. Wow. Joel had never worked his way up, was never an AD or anything like that. Ethan was a statistical typist at Macy's. He had been a philosophy major at Princeton and didn't want to go back.

And this is presaging things. He wrote a letter to Princeton as if he was his parents saying that Ethan was recently in a terrible chipper accident and lost his arms and legs and was too embarrassed to return to Princeton. So he literally dropped out without telling his parents. So we raised the money for blood simple and the first day on the set of that movie was the first day any of us had ever been on a movie set. Do you remember what the first scene was that you guys shot?

Oh, wow. I can remember almost every scene of that movie. Oh, wow. That's a really good question. I was a terrible camera operator, just awful. Oh, so you were operating and D.P. Yeah, because we couldn't afford, you know, and this is pre any sort of video tap. So they never could see my framing and because that would have been good because they would

have said, Hey, you know, all the Dolly track is in that shot. Should you just tilt up? So, you know, with them not having any video assist and them being so known for their precision and the specificity of their composition, I'm sure you'll be you'll be delicate and political here. But tell us to the extent you're comfortable what the ratio was of you kind of informing their taste with that since they had to be obviously so trusting of you. They couldn't see anything until until daily's the next day.

Did you help them kind of learn what they're known for today? Well, it's funny when you say there was no video assist and how much was I involved? There's literally a scene and video assist, by the way, Tracy, is the ability for people other than the cameraman to see what the camera is seeing. It's a monitor. It's a tap. As you can see with the camera, which is now we take for granted anytime you shoot a film or a television program, the cameras are pointed at whatever they're shooting the scene.

And then everybody can watch on these monitors effectively watching on a TV what the what the camera is shooting. Before I answer that question, Jason, I've got some directing advice for you and maybe you do this already. I believe that you should direct only from the camera and not from video village. Old school just sitting on an apple box under the mat box under the mat box because then right away is first of all, the actors know you're there, you're present and you're the audience, you can immediately go in and say, no, talk faster, which is the only thing you

ever have to say to an actor and we'll can tell you that. Can I tell you, Barry has a, he's got a saddle that is kind of on wheels that he sits on instead of a chair and he can wheel. This is true and he wheels around the set and he's right next to the camera and then he can wheel over here and then he'll, he'll, they'll, they'll sort of keep rolling or cut and he'll wheel over to you and say faster. Sometimes he'll just say funnier, he'll say flatter, flatter, flatter, flatter, never funnier.

You never want the actors to act funnier. You just want them to act real and if the scene is funny, then you'll be funny. But in any case, the other thing is, I think if you're at video village, you start to get lazy and you start to yell one more and you never need one more without changing something or you don't need one more. So anyway, back to the Cone Brothers answer, the truth is Joe Ethan and I spent six months designing every shot. We had floor plans, we had shot lists, we had storyboard, you know, little thump storyboards.

So we taught each other how to do that stuff and we have a very similar style since I've become a director and they've used other cameraman. They're just not as good visually, but that's just because they've started to pan. I never let them pan. I think panning is the laziest thing you could ever do. Never pan, always track, but panning is just like, either let them leave frame and come back in or track with them. So I remember being at the premiere of a, what's that Scorsese movie with Daniel Day-Louis

Gangs of New York was that way and Joe Ethan and I were at the premiere and the movie ended and Ethan turned to me and said, why was that movie so bad? And I said, too much panning. The camera just moved left to right and then you left to right or in and out. Let me ask you, Barry, so you did so much storyboarding and planning out, you know, and you had all this stuff, all this preparation. What was that like when you would do all that preparation and then you'd get there on the day and things would be different because actors have different interpretations or whatever,

as much as you want to kind of get them into an area that sort of fix this preconceived notions that you have of the scene, once it starts changing, what is that like as a cinematographer, but more importantly as a director when you've done all that planning and things change? Is that frustrating to you or do you enjoy it? I don't let things change. I knew you were going to say that. Next question. I mean, really, you know, you design this thing and you need the actor to be looking

out the window so you can rack focus and see the calorie coming. And the actor says, I wouldn't look at the window. I would be looking at the person I'm angry at, then you have to say, just look at the out the window. Yeah. I just, I know it's horrible. There's nothing worse than designing all this stuff and then having to change it. So I just don't change it.

I mean, I was working with Will and Will kept saying, I have a broken leg. I can't do this. And I said, just do it. Yeah. You can do it. So I was about to say this. So a couple of years ago, Barry asked me to do Lemony Snicket and come up to Vancouver for a week with Colby Smulders.

And I was really excited to go and then I hurt my knee and I had to have knee surgery. So I was about, I called Barry up and I said, listen, I'm not going to be able to come up. I got to get knee surgery next week. And then you want me to start the next week and there's no way I will have had MCL surgery. And Barry said, well, you got to come. And I said, no, no, no, I don't think you're here when I'm saying like I'm having knee surgery and I can't do it. He says, well, you got to figure it out.

You got to come. He says, here's where I, here's where you're going to contradict yourself. You said, I'll, I'll change all your blocking so that you're sitting all the time. Right. I went like, God damn it. God, he's making it too easy for me. Like he's, and I just, I love the guy. So I'm like, what am I going to, so I finally, I relented it.

And I said, okay, I'll do it. And I can't believe that I did cause I was really in pain and my knee was very swollen. Here's the best part. I get up to Vancouver. I have to go through the airport in a wheelchair and my legs all swollen up. I get there six, six a.m. the next day on set, banging on my trailer. Barry comes in first thing before he even says hello, he goes, you should have asked me.

I would have told you not to have surgery on your knee, but I mean, I'm in pain. I'm there for him and he's berating me for having knee surgery. And we will be right back. Let me ask you something. You're, you've done so many different kinds of projects and you, and, and brilliantly what draws you to one and not another? Like is there a recipe that you look for or, or what is it? Yeah.

I'm a really big fan of world building. So whether it's pushing daisies or men in black or Adams family or a series of unfortunate events, there's something sort of quirky and off about all that stuff. It's not, it's both real and not quite real. I also really only want to do comedies. I mean, there are a couple of things I tried to do that weren't comedies, but I never could get them made. But so I like comedies, but I like world building.

So everything sort of and quirkiness a little bit. So, so that's what I look for. I, I could never do a legal drama, you know, episode seven of a legal drama. Yeah. I guess. And you like style too. Like, you know, get shorty was very stylized, very stylistic. Like it was a very, which was a huge hit.

And I think it was one of those films that really got people's attention when it came out. It was such a great film and Travolta was just making his comeback, right? At that time. Yeah. And I cast him right before Pulp Fiction came out. So Pulp Fiction really started him again and then get shorty helped. It took us seven years to get that made.

DeVito and I were pitching that show for seven years. No one wanted to make it. There had never been a successful Elmore Leonard movie based on of his novels. And no one wanted to make an inside Hollywood thing. So that's an example of how wrong Hollywood can be sometimes. With stuff that with the world building, obviously, it demands that there's a coalition of multiple departments, you know, inside the production design and the cinematography. Obviously the music and the performance all to manage this unique tone that you're trying

to deliver to the audience, both in a visual way and in an emotional way. Is there a favorite department that you like you like to deal with? Yeah. My favorite is the camera department. First of all, when I was a cameraman, I hated my department. I was winding and complaining and the camera is so heavy. I only ate and hung out with the grips and electrics because they're like manly men who like carry things and and and don't complain them in the PAs are the hardest workers on

set. Yeah. I hated the my own department and now as a director for me, it starts with production design and that's usually Bo Welch, who did our three things years on a series. I love Bo Welch. I did cat in the hat with him. He was. Yeah.

Bo directed that and had just a terrible time, as you know, but tough time with the actors. That's what I heard. Yeah. I think it was a lot of pushback from a lot of whiny talking about departments. I would look out the window. I'd look at the person. Yeah. Yeah.

My character wouldn't even have a window. I hate hats. Yeah. I mean, is there like, are there has there been people that you've kind of gotten into a discussion, a heated discussion with, but you ended up really kind of admiring that, you know, afterwards? Is there some? No, I'm going to answer for Barry.

No. No. I had to run in with Tom Sizemore on on big trouble. He wanted to be in a comedy and I said, all right, I'll hire you under two conditions. You have to do whatever I tell you to do and you're not allowed to hit me. And he agreed to those, he agreed to those notes. And on the first day of shooting, big trouble, I called him into my camper at the end of the day and I said, I've got to fire you.

And he said, why? I said, and you can't hit me. And he said, well, maybe. And then I said, here's the problem. You're trying to be funny. What's that tick? What's that limp? And he said, well, it's a comedy.

I said, just play the scene. The scene is funny. Don't you be funny. Right. Wait, Jason, can I see your pants again? Oh yeah. These are pajamas. Yeah.

Yeah. I thought that. I just. Jason has hit such a level of fuck it. He gave up so long ago and it's so embarrassing. And as his friend, it's worrying to watch him go down and deteriorate so quickly. Sorry. Go ahead, John.

I just want to kind of along these lines, but go ahead. Yeah. Because I've never met you and I'm such a huge fan of your work. What I'm hearing is you have a very specific process. And me as an actor listening to you, is there a middle ground you enjoy working with actors? Or is it really just like, this is how this should go. Everybody just show up, stand where you're supposed to stand, wear what you're supposed to wear, and say what you're supposed to say.

It really depends on the script and the actors. If there are certain actors that are really smart and the script isn't like on Get Shorty, I didn't let anyone change your word. You know, Travolta would say, can I say can't instead of cannot? And I would go, no, it's got to be cannot. It's got to be really specific. And then there are other times when you're working with Will and the scene's no good. You say, Will, what do you got?

You know, so there's a little bit of that. And then I've learned. Will Smith. Will Smith. You mean Will Smith? Will Smith. Or Will Arnett. Anyone named Will.

Will Arnett is, you put a 21 millimeter lens in front of Will, and no matter what he says, and it could be literally Meryl Streep's speech from Sophie's Choice, and somehow it's going to be hilarious. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Speaking of those 21 inch lens, so I remember Barry telling me once that when we were doing somebody's Snicket that he had our friend Don Johnson on there and Don asked you what kind of lens you, he heard somebody, he heard you say to the DP, put a 21 on, and he said,

hold up. He says, you're not, you're not shooting me with a 21. Right. Yeah. And I was like, and you, so we laughed about it. And he was like, no, I'm, you're not shooting me and blah, blah, blah, he's a handsome guy and stuff. And then I was like, so Don Johnson doesn't get to have the, but I get the 21 on me,

on my dumb face. You do have a dumb face, which is so wonderful about you. Thank you. Let me tell you a quick story about your dumb face. Recently, just this past weekend was at an event and I was sitting next to John Hamm, who I know just slightly a little bit. And I said to John, you know, there's a certain subset of actors. There's you, Patrick Warburton and Will Arnett that are all incredibly handsome with these

deep, low voices and you so get comedy by, you're so flat, you're so wonderful. And John's response was, wow, to be put in the same context with Patrick Warburton. Thank you. So I thought I should share that with you, Will. Listen, I'm happy to avoid the hit and I know him, so I would have texted him immediately. But I will say that you, you know, you do have such a, I love how specific you are with your, I don't know, your concepts and your theories on comedy and filmmaking and all that stuff.

I just, I've always loved that. That's neither here nor there. I just kind of wanted to say that I've always enjoyed that about you because it, it does when you get on set and you have, and we'll have a brief conversation because anytime I ask you a question, you've always got an answer for it, which is great. And then you go, as an actor, you go, oh, okay, well, that makes sense. And then you go ahead and do it. Right.

It should also be noted that the footnote on that having surgery story was about 10 days after my surgery, the first time I walked without crutches, I walked on camera for Barry using this cane that was made for me by the prop department. And that was the first time I walked. I was like, Jesus Christ, I can't believe I'm doing this. So Barry, I want to get into your book that you've written called Barry Sonnenfeld, Call Your Mother, which is a great title. And it's actually, it's actually a quote from, is it a quote from a concert you were

at? Is that, is that what happened? Is that where the title came from? Yeah. So I'm 17 years old, 19,600 people, Madison Square Garden, 2.20 in the morning. That's important that it was 2.20. Jimi Hendrix warming up for the second time. It was the first piece concert that had been Peter, Paul and Mary and all these other

groups. And at 2.20 in the morning, while Jimi Hendrix is warming up over the PA system at Madison Square Garden, comes the announcement, Barry Sonnenfeld, Call Your Mother, which, so here's what happened. So first of all, I started to cry because I knew my father was dead because how else you convince anyone? So I start to cry, I stand up so that I announced to my section of blue seats at the garden that I am Barry Sonnenfeld by standing up.

So now the chant of, the garden chant of Barry, Barry starts to sort of envelop the upper part of the garden. I get to the pay phone, call my mother weeping uncontrollably, mom who died, my mother says, I thought you died, you said you would be home at two, it's 2.20. I said, right, but didn't they tell you the concert was still going on? Yes, but they couldn't guarantee you were there. So she also said if I went away to sleep away school, others call it college, she would commit suicide.

So I spent three years living at home in Washington Heights attending NYU Uptown in the Bronx. And then when I was going to be a senior, I transferred to Hampshire college where I met Ken Burns thinking, I go away to college and my mother commits suicide, two birds, one stone, and then she totally rednecks and doesn't commit suicide, could never count on her. No, it's tough to count on people. So dad was not dead then, right? Dad was just worried with mom.

Dad was having his multiple affairs, so was rarely home until later in the night when he would always open up a container of breakstone, sour cream, and either put bananas and brown sugar or cucumbers in it. And that was his second dinner after he had dinner with whatever woman he was having sex with at the time. And who could blame him? I wanted to pick your brain about electronics, consumer products, because I've really enjoyed your reviews of those on your many letterman appearances.

Is there something we should really be keeping our eye on right now that you're super fond of? You know, for 10 years I had this column in Esquire magazine called The Digital Man, and it would review things all the time. And now I'm so sick of it. I just ordered the iPhone 13 because I have an 11 and it's cracked. But I don't know. Maybe it's drone.

I mean, does anyone use still cameras anymore? Well, it wasn't at Annie Liebowitz that said that somebody asked her, you know, if I was going to buy a camera, what would be the best camera to buy? And she said, just get an iPhone. Those cameras are incredible. And you know, now on the 13, the video now has that shallow depth of field that the portrait mode on the still camera has. So you can shoot video with a real shallow depth of field, which is nice.

It looks really cinematic. I like lots of depth of field. That's where the 21 comes in. But yeah, it does let you do that. I mean, you direct with longer lenses than I do, but your stuff is in comedy. But even when we go wider, you know, we shoot wide open because I like that, that shallower stuff. But so yeah, so you're ever, you can see everything in, in, in the way that you light

and the stop you work, you work at. Yeah. Yes. And I'll say one thing. That's why I track so much because I shoot with these wide angle lenses. So everything's in focus. So you have to tell the audience where to look. So I do that by moving, you know, tracking in often.

And I also center punch. I center punch everything and it drives all the camera operators. I work with crazy and then over time they get used to it. What is your, what is your thought on in, in comedy on keeping, you know, multiple characters in the same frame and, or, and, or using coverage in comedy? Because I think it's become this thing increasingly over the years where, where you're constantly cutting to a single. And, and for me, it takes me out of it completely.

And I had this argument on the set with the director recently on this thing we were doing this sort of improvie show that we've got coming out on Netflix. And I was saying, I really want to make sure to as much as we can see these characters in the same frame reacting off each other because that's the funniest, right? Well, Will, why would you not hire me to direct that? Because I would think that you're too busy and you're, you're a big shot and you live in Canada. I'm not too busy and I'm not a big shot and I'd love to work with you.

So let me say any of you. Okay. Here's the thing. That goes double for me. Okay. Well, send me something. Triple for me. Okay.

Sean wins. Yeah. Comedy plays out in two shot and masters. I think close ups are the enemy of the, of comedy. I think cutting to the punchline is the enemy of the comedy. And that's why I have actors talk fast because by talking fast and pacing it up, there's nothing lazier than trying to create pace in post production, create pace on the set. And by creating pace on the set, you get to play scenes out in two shots.

I mean, Sean, look at Shmega Dune. There are very few close ups and all the dance numbers you see people from head to toe. I was going to say comedy aside, even in choreography and it speaks to Shmega Dune, even choreography, I hate when they cut in on choreography too. It's like, no, they're all dancing at the same time. I want to see what everybody's doing at the same time. Absolutely. You look at Preston Sturgis or Howard Hawks comedy.

You look at bringing up, baby, you have Catherine Hepburn calling Cary Grant, Mr. Bones. And that's not his name. You have Cary Grant in her aunt's bathrobe trying to butt in. And it only plays out because you play out in the master. You see action and reaction in the same shot. And the other thing that goes with that will is that you never want two funny people in your scene. You need Jerry Lewis and Dean Martin.

You need George Burns and Gracie Allen. And at the start of Men in Black, Tommy Lee Jones kept trying to be funny. And I kept saying, Tommy, government issue, no comedy, totally flat. You don't think this is funny. And he had never been in a comedy before and hated me for 20 weeks. His agent would call me up and say, you only want Will Smith to be funny. You don't want Tommy to be funny. I said, Tommy will be funnier than Will.

The biggest laugh in the scene is the reaction, not the action. You cut to Meg Ryan faking an orgasm in When Harry Met Sally, which I show at Rob. And as funny as she is faking the orgasm, you cut to Billy Crystal doing nothing, just reacting. And the left goes from 100 dB to 120 dB. So it's all about the master. It's all about. And the only reason you ever even want to cover it is in case you want to combine the first

half of this. But play it in two shots and wide shots. Imagine explaining how comedy work and comedy filmmaking works and you get to throw in the fact that you shot When Harry Met Sally. And you omit the fact that you also shot big and you omit the fact that you shot throw mama from the train. You always forget how crazy your resume is very amazing things you've done. Yeah.

Fine. It's true. We'll be right back. All right. Back to the show. Because you're such a huge fan of comedy. Is there somebody now or a show now or what's out there now that you're kind of really into and like talking about?

What's funny? I mean, I love JoJo Rabbit. I thought that was, I mean, and the genius of JoJo Rabbit is that you can laugh at Hitler because he exists only in the kids mind. So there is no actual Hitler, you know, and also he was a buffoon. Yeah. So I love JoJo Rabbit. Sweden.

I've been watching the Bureau. I don't know if you guys have seen that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which is not funny, but every one of those actors are so real and I don't understand it. Jason, I was telling you about it. Kassavitz is the lead and he's a great director in his own right and he directed, hates back

in the nineties, but he's a great, great actor. He was in Amelie. That second, second or third season, the last episode is the first, I think it's the only episode of television where I would legitimately sat on the edge of my sofa being like, what is going on? It was so gripping. What is that? On Netflix?

No, you have to buy it on iTunes. So it's going to cost you 20 bucks a year, but it's, it's worth it. So I don't see a lot of comedy that I like because so much of comedy is now this sort of improv stuff where they shoot with three or four cameras and you see part of someone's nose and you see, and it's done through improv and I'm just, I'm not that guy. Yeah. Well, because it's so hard to construct it in the first place. And so it's much easier to just make commentary on it and there's a lot of like veneer of funny

out there, which, which without actual jokes and cause the hardest thing to do is write good jokes. Barry, I want to ask you a little bit cause Sean, you had kind of touched on it. This idea of like who, you know, moments that you had thing or you didn't get along with people or you didn't. Yeah. One of the things that struck me when you came into my trailer that day up in Vancouver and you told me that I shouldn't have had my knee surgery, you talked to me a little

bit about this moment that you had had when you were experienced and you mentioned you had sciatica, when you'd had a lot of sort of physical pain in that moment that you kind of got over that. And it really impacted me that morning when you told me this story, maybe you could tell these guys a little bit about that. You mean how I lost my pain on men in black three by yelling at someone? Was that the one? Yeah.

Yeah. That's one. So, so I used to yell and I'll be specific. It was a scene in the first men in black where Will Smith and Tommy Lee Jones arrive at headquarters for the first time and come down that elevator and we pull back from them and we reveal sort of the terminal, you know, both Welsh designed it and we designed it as if it's an airplane terminal. It's where aliens come in and get booked and all that.

And I said to the special effects crew, look, I don't want Tommy to yell at me. I got yelled at by him and Gene Hackman so often, Gene Hackman on, I just don't want to be yelled at. What time do you guys need to get here to make sure that elevator is going to be working tomorrow morning? Oh, boss, what time are they going to be ready? They'll be ready at 10 a.m. Oh, eight is good.

I said, let's make it four a.m. Get here at four. They said, no, no, we'll be ready. We'll be ready. I said, don't worry about overtime. Take as much time as you, oh, it's good. So of course they're not ready. It's 10.

It's 11. And I yell in front of the whole crew, guys, guys, I gave you what as much time as you want. I begged you and I'm yelling, right? And sweetie, my wife, sweetie turns me and says, they felt bad before you yelled at them. They knew they screwed up, but now by you yelling at them, they get to feel that you're the asshole instead of them screwing up. So in 1997, I stopped ever yelling at anyone again. And for the last 30 years, I have profound sciatica because sciatica is brought on by

unconscious narcissistic rage. You're keeping your anger inside of you instead of expressing it because you fear that if you express your anger, you're going to hurt someone you love or you'll get fired or whatever. In fact, I've cured both my wife and David Kepp's wife. David Kepp is a great screenwriter of sciatica by just explaining this to them and suggesting they need to yell at their partner and they'll get over sciatica, but I don't want to yell at sweetie. I don't want to yell at anyone anymore.

So I have terrible sciatica. My sciatica on Men in Black 3 is so horrible because I so didn't get along with the producers and Sony was not being supportive of me. And we only shot the first third because we didn't have the rest of the script. And I kept saying, how can I have comedy callbacks if I don't know what the second and third acts are? I got to set up some stuff in the first act that's going to pay off in the third act, but I don't know what that third act is.

So I'm crawling up to Emma Thompson to give her direction and Emma says, oh, you're back so bad, you should see a physical therapist. And I said, no, unconscious narcissistic rage. And she says, oh, are you a patient of Dr. Sarno also because she has unconscious narcissistic rage? So the same back doctor. Okay. So now it's Christmas break.

I want to hire David Kepp to come in and fix our script. The producers don't want to. I'm on the phone with the producers and Amy Pascal and Doug Belgrad formerly of Sony. And the producer says to me, cause he doesn't want to hire David Kepp cause Kepp will only do it if he only has to work with me and not these producers. And the punchline is, is going to be from Dr. Strangelove. Just so you're prepared. The producer says to me, let's face it, Barry, the last 10 years of your life have been a

professional and personal failure. Jesus. So I say to him, fuck you, Walter, fuck you, fuck all of you. And I hang up and I leave, but I screamed it and I leave the room and I walked downstairs to my wife and just like the end of Dr. Strangelove, I said to sweetie, I can walk. My sciatica had all gone away and I could literally walk and I had no pain because I expressed that anger. It lasted a couple of weeks and of course, and it came back again, but for two weeks,

because I screamed at this person, my sciatica had totally gone away instantly. So Barry tells me that story and I'm lying in this trailer with an ice all over my knee and I'm like, okay, well, who am I mad at? I don't, listen, I'm happy to yell F you to somebody. I just don't know who it is. Try it. So you've written this book, Barry Seinfeld, Call Your Mother. What was that, what was the impetus for that?

What was your, because you've done so many other things and you're like, well, I'm just going to write a book. Like how did that come about? So decades ago or 15 years ago, I wrote down, I was bored. So I wrote the porn chapter, which we talked about and I just put it away and then one weekend I gave it to my wife who used to be an editor and I said, hey, sweetie, read this. We were in bed and there's nothing I enjoy more in life than making my wife laugh. I love that.

Yeah. I just love, I just love that. And she was reading this in bed, shaking the bed and we weren't having sex or anything. Shaking the bed with laughter. And she said, this, it's great. It's just great. I said, great, put it away. Years go by and David Granger, who was the editor in chief of Esquire had left and become

a literary agent. He calls me up and he says, Hey, do you have a book in you? And I said, yeah, well, read this chapter. He reads a chapter. He says, give me two more. All right. Two more chapters. Wonder about my plane crash in Van Nuys airport where the crew abandoned me on the plane

and Barry Sonnenfeld called your mother that episode. And I give him these three chapters and we go out to six publishers and all six say yes as long as you write it cause you know, I have a specific tone and I have lots of a side and I loved it. I would write 40 pages a day. I cut out 40% of the book just cause I like short movies and short books, but it was a piece of cake cause I'm writing about myself. I'm Jewish and an only child.

What could be better? So I, I loved it. And then we went out with it and it got a great review in the times and the Wall Street Journal and then COVID struck and you know, Amazon saying we will ship this book in the next 18 weeks. So that was really depressing. So, so, so Barry now, listen, you mentioned, you mentioned Telluride. You used to live on the East, you were, you know, you grew up in New York and then you,

you lived in Long Island for many years and then you lived in Telluride and now you live in Pemberton, British Columbia. It's about a half hour north of Whistler and I just couldn't, well, here's the thing. So we're shooting a series of unfortunate events and it's a close set and there's this woman who's kind of sporty and, and her son and I'm joking around with her and making fun of her and she's making fun of me. This is October 2016 and I say, who are you and why are you here? Cause I'm goofing around with her and she says, oh hi, I'm Chrissy Clark.

I'm the premier of British Columbia and I say to her, you may be very important to me in one week. And the night of the election in 2016, she emailed me and said, are you ready? And I'm one of those guys who actually said yes. And sweetie and I have moved to Canada. Wow. Yeah. Wow.

And I've seen, you show, you sent me some pictures over the last couple of years. Your place looks incredible and you love living in Canada and you love Canadians. Well, we, we had a pretty spectacular place in Telluride. We had 62 acres and views all the way to Utah, but we were living at 10,000 feet and we were just getting too old for that altitude. I'm really old. You do, you need, you need supplemental oxygen there. It's not, not uncommon.

Yeah. You know, I thought we would be a good idea to pressurize our house and then I realized the first time someone opened the window, they'd be sucked out into the, so I thought, maybe that's a bad idea. Okay. One other question for Jason. Yes, sir. Did you win the Toyota Grand Prix or, I did, yeah, yeah.

I attended that race almost every year. I know Brolin was part of that at one point, Mark Consuelos. I became good friends with Bobby Ray Hall. Oh, wow. Really? Through Letterman. Yeah. In fact, Ray Hall, I sent Ray Hall my low to super seven and he reboarded the engine

out for me and all that. So. Oh my God. Yeah. Do you still race at all? No, I, I, I'd left that, no, but that was so much, so much fun. I did that. I did it a few times.

I really, really enjoyed it. You don't still, do they still have that race? I want to say they do. I think they might. I mean, I'm not down there anymore, but I would always stand at the corner where I knew Mario Andretti would go into the tires because it was always fun watching Mario never finish a race. Let me tell you something.

I don't know anything about the long, the long beach race, but I do know that if there was a race, any kind of car, a stock car or whatever, and it was from Sean's house to Chin Chin in West Hollywood, I tell you, he would win. He would win every time. The best part is that it's a hundred percent. Barry, we've taken up way too much of your time and you've been way too generous with us and you're such a great guy and I just love you and I miss you and thank you for coming to do this show and just wish you all the best up in Canada.

I hope we see you soon. I'd love to work with you guys anytime. You're all so, so talented. That really would be a dream. They say don't meet your heroes, but watching you on, you know, doing your interviews, I was hoping that you would be as charming and as friendly and as entertaining as you are there and now in person, you really are. So thank you for spending some time with us.

Loved every second of it, guys. Thank you so much. Thanks, Barry. Thanks, Barry. Bye, Barry. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Oh, Will. Will, you got a nice streak going here with your guests. I mean, he's... I know. Super fun. He's a real hero of mine. Barry's one of those guys. I just...

What a thrill. I got to know him because we worked together. We did RV and then I did a couple of days on that. I did one day on Men in Black 3. I was going to say, we said, don't put too funny people together and then I was thinking about the fact that I did this scene with Will Smith and I was like, well, I guess I was the under... Who was the straight man in that scene?

I guess it was me. I guess it was me. Yeah. Revealed here. I didn't know all the other stuff that he did until you said... I didn't know he did. Oh, no. When Harry met Sally?

This guy. He shot. And he's established a lot of what are now kind of tried and true... Easy. I didn't know that. ...aesthetics. It was so nice to meet him. And yeah, I always loved him on Letterman.

He was so funny. Yeah. That would be so fun to be on set with him. And I'd have to just turn into soldier mode, right? Because you don't want to be that dick that like says, well, yeah, I don't think if you're going to do a Barry Sonnenfeld project, you sign on for that and service what he's doing because it's so beautifully specific. Yeah.

And he just goes faster, faster, flatter, faster, flatter. Just faster. I love that. And he does. He just wants you to kind of get it out and really trust the material. And so you've got to kind of... You know, he's done so many things that were great men in black, obviously, and get shorty. All those things were just...

You know, he was able to rely on those great scripts that he believed in and shot them. And I don't know, man. He's a... Anyway, great guy. And so interesting too, right? Such an interesting life he's led. Yeah. Fascinating.

And I can't wait for the book. I know. You don't read. I know. I was just trying to say something nice about his book. When's the last book you read? I'm reading right now these old books that I read when I was like in junior high. These like mystery books.

Are we talking about like choose your own adventure books, maybe? What are the hardy boys doing now? Yeah. No. Hey, did you guys ever see that movie House with a Clock in its Walls a few years ago? I did not, but I know of it. Yeah. So that whole series, I was such a fan of as a kid, so I'm re-reading them.

Okay. So you're just re-reading. You don't want to just start to read some new books? No. Nothing that's going to further my brain. I just want to go back. Yeah, right. Yeah.

What about you, Will? You're still combing through World War II history? No, I've been reading this book about this guy who's a, it's actually a detective novel set in that era. It's pretty fascinating stuff, but it's like historical fiction. And just when you read, you're not sitting down at 4 p.m. in the middle of the afternoon and reading books. Sometimes, yeah.

I mean, it's the only thing, it just puts you to bed, right? It's like the last half hour of every day. That's my thing. Like reading just that jacket title would put me to sleep. Yeah. Well, I read it, I read it at night. Like I do, that is my sort of my one thing, my one sort of luxury that I allow. Sometimes I'll be, you know, I'll get into bed and I'll be like, you know what, I'm

just going to read for an extra half hour tonight. I'm like, I'm just being so naughty. Let me ask you a question. When you're sharing a bed with someone, do you read before you go for the nookie or is it, or do you read after? As like a treat. The nookie. Oh, go for the nookie.

Okay, Boomer, I don't know, listen, man, stop making it sound so sexy. Yeah. I'm going to sit there with your book with your bifocals on and hope that she notices this hot dude. Hey, I don't, I don't pencil in my sexual engagements, like it's going to be at 9 0 5 and I'm going to do that and get my nookie in it. Or is it like a foreplay thing, like watch me read and see how hot I am as I read my book.

Listen, I'm just like, no, I just do it any time, like I'll just be like, you know, whenever. Well, listen, he was, thank you for bringing him on. I was wanting to meet him. So that was cool. Yeah. I'm sure maybe, maybe the three of us can do, can do a little project with him and make it funny. He would be so funny and he's such a great engaging guy.

I'll get emails from him at the weirdest times where he'll be like, I just heard a Reese's commercial after GMC, the last GMC, it doesn't really sound like you. What were you doing that day? And I'm like, I don't know. And an email. So then I have to email him like, I don't know, man, what's wrong with it? How do you end your emails? Yours truly.

I love you forever. Oh, yeah, no, here comes Sean, he's teasing himself up. Yours truly. And then you say something like, bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Our next episode will be out in a week, wherever you listen to podcasts or you can listen to it right now early on Amazon Music or early and add free by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app.