SmartLess - "Charli xcx"

Episode Date: February 2, 2026

Grab an apple and paint the soup– it’s Charli xcx. We’re charmed by spontaneity, the Brat lexicon, synesthesia, pink Wednesdays, and daring to suck. Don’t quantize your electric toothbrush… the groove is in the gums. Welcome to SmartLess. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of SmartLess ad-free and a whole week early. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, you know what I do when I'm done drinking a plastic bottle of water? I do the environmentally correct thing to do. I smash it. I cap it. I pull it in the blue bin. I smash it. I cap it. I put it in the blue bin.

Everybody. I smash it. I cap it. I put it in the blue bin. Smash it. Yeah. Ew. Smash it, cap it.

Look at your little, Jay, look at a little flare you got going. You lit that thing, I mean. That's what we get for doing this at four. No, it's nice, though. It's giving it a nice kind of vibe. You like the kick? All right. You got a little California vibe.

It's real, it's real. It's real, it's real, it's a little bit too much. How do you feel about the afternoon record? I'm not a fan. Yeah. I'm done with the day a couple hours ago. Yeah. That's what, 765, 5, 4, 3, that's 2 o'clock?

We got you for the whole day, right? I'm just going to quote you. It is a full, it is a work day today, for sure. Yeah, yeah, I will admit. I'll get there. I'll get it up. I'll get it up. Now, but, Shawnee, you're even worse off.

You're in New York, so you're, this is, this is, you're well past dinner time. It's seven there. I know, at 7 o'clock. I have just been going. You must be two and a half hours past dinner time, right? Yeah. No, I ate when I came home. Did you rehearse today?

I did for five hours. Boy. How to go. It's tough. I mean, it's like, you know when you have to concentrate so hard and so specific for so long? Yeah. I don't know. Like on... It's a different kind of tired.

It is. It's brain tired. Yeah, you can't take a moment off, right? Because listener, he's talking about, he's doing a one-man show. Gosh, here we go. What's the show called, Johnny? It's called the unknown, but we don't have to, yeah. It's called the unknown.

We don't know. We don't know. How is it going to be? It's a no. It's kind of right there. It's right for, you know. Shoney, what's the name of the theater, too? So we can just get it in there.

It's called the Studio C-view, and it opens January 31st for previews. Studio C-view, January 31st. Gang, get down there. You know, the whole, like, previews and opening. We talked about that before. It's like, if you're selling tickets that people are coming,

why do we do the previews in the moment? Just, it opens January 31st. That's what I say. Yeah, I agree. Like, you know, people are selling tickets. You do sell tickets to previews, right? Preview. Yeah, what's that thing with the previews? What do you think it is? It's, you know, it's to work out the kinks before it's officially open, but it's like, well, then don't sell tickets, but we are.

Then just do rehearsal, call it rehearsal and don't have audio. Yeah, we're rehearsing for two weeks before we, you know. Like, you get a couple weeks of Mulligan, like, don't you dare write a review about this because we don't really mean it yet. It'd be like shooting a bunch of scenes and then you release a rough cut and go, it's just the rough cut, but it's going to theaters. That's right. And that, but Jason, that's when the, that's when the critics come are during previews. Yeah, so it's like what? I don't understand. It's all backwards.

That's how they get the reviews out on opening night. While we're working through our shit, that's when they review the show? Like, I don't know. It doesn't make sense. Why don't you charge half price for previews? I'll mention that to the previous. Hey, Sean, can I ask you a question? Yeah.

Do you have the balls to change the system? Believe me. Let's write a play called Change, and it's about changing the theater system. Charging half price for previews. Yeah. Three full acts. And let's do four months of previews. views in one week.

Oh my God, that'd be hilarious. Now, Sean, you're finding your brain's working okay as far as remembering all these lines? Well, you know, that's the scariest part. I have found that I've been told in this rehearsal process that some people have ear, what is it called? Yeah, earwigs. And then. Oh, yeah, we had a, we did a, we had a record the other day.

Oh, that's right. Now, I wonder, I couldn't understand, was he, was he implying that the earwigs, is is reading him his lines all the time or just when he goes up, someone will wisdom. He said for backup, but I know somebody who did an entire run on Broadway with a year record.

There's a few people, yeah. Anyway, so I also talk about change. What are you going to do? What's going to be your safety net? I'm just going to wing it. I don't know. No, you're not. I get sick thinking about it.

Here's what it is, J.B. He's been working on it for months. He's been working on it for months, literally eight hours a day. Yeah, for like three months. He is so diligent about that. You know, Shawnee, he's diligent of nothing else. No, you are. This is the part that I don't get, though, Sean,

because you're so beautifully relaxed about your days, your weeks, your years, your months. You know, you don't, you're fine, you're fine relaxing. And you tend to say, hang on, you tend to say no to a lot of things, okay, even more than me. Yeah. Yet you say yes to not only a one-man show, but another play on the back end of,

of the last thing and you said you would never do another place. Yeah, do you remember when he was in London? Remember he was in London? And he was like, I'm not doing this again. What am I doing? I remember talking to you were like, why am I doing this? I'm so tired.

I'm not going to do this. We were on the phone. You were in London. And then a month later, you're like, I'm going to go to New York and do this one minute. I'm going to do something harder. Well, because if you read the script, you'd be like, well, you're an idiot if you don't do this.

Because there's never been anything like it. I mean, it's the most incredible thing I've ever read. I mean, it's incredible. Oh, all right. All right, well, good. He's inspired. He's inspired by the material. That's good.

But, you know, then... That's nice that you're still inspired. Yeah, a little bit. But I talk about changes the system. On stage is the only... Like, theater's the only place you don't have a stand-in. So TV and film, actors have stand-ins, why they light the scenes so they can go rehearse or whatever?

But theater, I was like, why don't you have a stand-in during Tech Week? Why don't have to stand there for 14 hours while you light the show. I'm tired. Anyway, moving on. You don't like hitting your marks and setting the lights and all that. But maybe that process will help cement it. That's what it's there for, I'm sure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Guys, my guest today is one of those people who was just kind of born cool, right? Like came out of the womb in dark sunglasses. She was performing at illegal warehouse parties as a teenager, and her parents came with her. Not dropped her off, but like went inside. She's British. Her stage name came from an old online scream name. It basically meant Kiss Me.

She has synesthesia, so music is in colors in her head. I want to talk to her about that. and she's been behind some of the biggest pop hits of the last decade, but in the summer of 2024, she had a moment so big, it jumped out of music and into the American presidential election. She's wildly talented, beautiful, unapologetically yourself, but most people know her as one word, brat, it's the amazing.

Charlie XX. Hello? Oh! Hello. Look at her go. Hi, everybody. How are you? I'm good, thank you.

How are you? Good. Are you in a kitchen somewhere? It sort of sounds like it, doesn't it? No, I'm in this. I don't know what this is. It's a room. It's a medical place.

This behind me. Basically, that's all that's going on. Are there cadavers in there? Listen, there's a metal wall behind her. Yeah. Shiny metal. Yeah, how I'm so... Thanks for being here.

This is so cool. Thank you for having me. Where are you? Were you just filming something or something? Yes, I'm sorry. I was late. Oh, good. Yeah.

Are you in London? No, I'm in L.A. I'm in L.A. right now. Oh, good. Are you liking? Are you liking what you? you're filming. Well, yeah, I mean, it's just, I'm doing promo for a movie, so I'm kind of, this is my first time doing promo for a film. Is this the mockumentary or is this the other one?

Yes, it's the mockumentary. This movie looks awesome. Tell us about it. What's it called? Yeah, it's called The Moment and it's basically a, it's kind of a revisionist history of 2024. And A24 is producing, or producing it. Yeah, A24 are producing it. And it's basically a, yeah, it's like a satirical mockumentary about my first arena tour. Right. And yeah, it's like a music industry satire very much in the realm of

this is spinal tap and kind of opening night. Right. It looks hilarious. So you're sort of playing like a version of yourself? Yes, correct, correct. A version of myself. How are you liking that? Is it? Because that that necessitates improv. Improv. sort of doing some, like, are you, do you have to make yourself look foolish?

Do you have to make yourself look different than what you truly are at times? Like, how does all that work? Well, I mean, my character is a real bitch and everybody already thinks that I am one, so that's totally fine. Who said that? Google it. It's out there, babes. Is it really?

Yeah, yeah. No, no. No, but, no, it's, it's, yeah. Yeah, it was like a really, it was kind of an amazing process, and we were really lucky to work with some, like, fucking an awesome cast. Like, Alexander Scar's God is just absolutely incredible in the film. Was any of it scripted, or is it really all-imposed? No, it was scripted, but we really did go off on a lot of improv.

I mean, we had some really incredible comedians in the film as well, like Kate Balan and Jamie Demetriou, who are just, I mean, it's like their bread and butter. They're so, it's so effortless for them. And your idea or whose idea was it? The idea, it was based on an idea by me, yeah. I guess I'd been approached to do a more traditional tour film where we were going to like film one of my shows. And I was kind of more interested in like subverting the form

and like taking that kind of traditional medium and then like flipping it into something that felt just a bit more subversive. and kind of more aligned with the work that I generally do. That's super smart. Like you're not taking it too seriously, and it's kind of like Spinal Tap you were saying, right? Yeah, yeah. And I'm definitely not the hero of the story,

which is very accurate to sort of my time in the music industry, I think. I mean, you guys have to watch the trailer. Who directed it? Aidan Zemeri directed the film. It's his debut feature. Yeah, that's cool. He's really incredible. and has done a lot of music videos in the past.

How did you like the whole filming process? I mean, is that, because it can be long days, right? Yeah, I mean, this film was really on kind of like an expedited timeline. I mean, we wrote the first draft in a week, and then after that, we had it in the first draft sort of New Year's Eve, and then we were shooting by March, so it was very, like, fast, very, very fast, as was the shoot itself, you know, sort of like five weeks and kind of like really like hardcore hitting it.

And did you already have, was it done during one of your tours, or did you have to like get a whole stage together and do all that stuff too? Yeah, yeah, we made a whole stage and the stage is very kind of like not what I would actually do on tour. So it's not real footage from your tour? No, there's no tour. There's no tour footage in it at all. So what about the crowds? You got just big crowds to come in?

We filmed. We filmed, well, I don't, you know, movie magic, guys. Good, okay, yeah. Because that would be a bummer to have to do all that stuff in front of all those people and, like, waiting and throwing stuff at you. Yeah, for God's sake, take a sip of your tea. Take a sip of that tea.

It's really hot, actually, is what's going on. I'm just kind of blowing on it. You got time. So are you. So, right, so look it. You picked your name when you were really young. I know you probably, I've never heard this answer, but please, like, for me and our listener,

tell me, like, how did you come up with the name? Oh, and for me, too. I'm an old man. Help me. Well, yeah, it was my MSN screen name. That's really good. Yeah, I just kind of went with that. I stuck with that.

And it's just a kiss thing, like Cates. A CASE, Charlie Kiss. Yeah, I think when I was a lot younger, I was sort of really kind of insecure about it being too. boring, so I sort of tried to make it stand for a much more like X-rated version. But it didn't stick because it wasn't the truth. And dude says anybody call you Charlotte anymore?

No, no one does, actually. Not even family? No, everyone calls me Charlie, yeah. How about Chuck? Ever Chuck? You know, actually a lot of my American friends do say Chuck. I would. I love it.

Anybody I know that's Charles or Charlie, I always go to Chuck. I don't know what. I get Chuck and I get chuckles. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Do you remember? Of course you do.

This is my Chris Farley version. Do you remember that day you tweeted Kamala as Brat? Yeah. I mean, Jay, do you remember that? Did you start that? Yeah, and then Kamala's whole campaign became the color of your album. That started with you, Charlie? Yeah.

Come on. Yeah. So you didn't start that. It was the name of the album is Brat. Oh, okay. See, I'm very old. My daughter's going to kill me. It's fine.

It was only a cultural phenomenon. By the way, I'm a big fan. This old timer doesn't get past, you know. Don't worry. I still need to watch Sopranos. So wait, you did not come up with the term Brad. I'm assuming Brat was a term, was a phrase. I think she did.

Did you start? Yeah, it's the name of my album, yeah. But you got it into the main, like in the... So my album was an album where the cover is green. with the word brat on it. And that was something that was sort of like adopted by a lot of people on the internet, eventually by Kamala after I did that tweet.

Right, right. And then it became sort of part of like the conversation to be brat or not to be brat. No, that part I definitely, I woke up for for sure. I mean, who knows? I don't know. It doesn't sound like you're up for a lot, mate. It found me in my hole.

But, but, um, no, wait, there's a better way to say that. But when you put the title of it originally on your, on your album, was it already a phrase that was kind of in the lexicon? No. Yeah, you created that. I mean, the word brat existed, but it wasn't a, it was. Classical sense, yes. Yes, but no, it wasn't, I don't think at least that it was in the lexicon in that,

in the way that it became. In the way that it became associated with people just kind of owning it. I mean, that's so cool. Right? Which is kind of what it kind of became you. Okay. Yeah. And then all the hits, man, off that album. I mean, so many have been hits.

It's crazy. Thank you. You know, 360, Apple, what are they? Von Dutch. Hello Goodbye was on the extent like the deluxe version. Yeah, wow. Justice for very little known track. Hello Goodbye.

I like Hello Goodbye. I like it a lot. Wait, do they still call those things B-Sides? It's not technically a B-side, but it's like a deluxe version. Again, just like you, deluxe. So you grew up in Essex, right? I can't picture you as a kid. What were you like at school growing up with this talent

that you had at such a young age? You know, I just find it because your dad's Scottish and your mom's Indian, did one culture, did one like feel more present than the other? You know what I mean? Was it different at school for you? I mean, they were both sort of present culturally and also not, you know? I think I kind of lived this life where I would go and see my mom's side of the family at the weekends.

And when I was sort of around them, I would always kind of feel, I suppose, more white because I guess I didn't entirely perhaps connect with certain parts of the culture that I wasn't always present for, you know? And then I think in school, I would often feel more brown, you know, and more Indian just because I think a lot of my school friends, their only kind of reference point for an Indian person was a poo from the Simpsons, you know? So I would feel very kind of like, you know, and that would be like a joke for them. So I would be a bit like I couldn't really connect there and I couldn't really connect. with my mom's family. So it was, you know, but it was sort of like that kind of a like slight displacement type thing. Yeah, yeah.

And what was like, was it, was the toughest age for you the same as it is for, certainly for me, for most people, like seventh grade, eighth grade, like 13, 14? Like, that's when I found kids are the meanest and like my feelings got hurt the most and I was scarred the most and I still hold on. My point is I hold on to. certain things that really scarred me back then, but actually gave me a bit of a thicker skin to be able to handle, like I didn't have the sort of clarity back then. But in retrospect, there is sort of, I guess, a benefit to going through some of the tough sledding that happens

at that age. And certainly like if you have an older sibling, when they kind of like tease you and stuff, in retrospect now, being the old timer that I am, I do look back at and having kids of my own now. I do sort of see the stuff they go through as like, it helped me a little bit. I didn't see it at the time. Do you find that it helped shape you and the kind of music you make now?

Yeah, I mean, I don't have any siblings. So I didn't, I actually think not having siblings actually means that you miss out on a lot of conflict. And I mean that in like actually a bad way. Like I think my friends who have siblings are so much better at conflict as in they don't kind of amplify it up into this huge dramatic thing. It's just they're able to move through it a lot more quickly than I am.

Because they know how to diffuse it, you know. Yeah. And as an only child, you're sort of protected and you're coddled and it's all about you. Yeah. And then also it's like the only people you really have to really like fight with is your parents who are this figure of authority in a way. So the clash feels like far more drastic. And there isn't like a sibling to kind of, you know, just diffuse it a bit and make it from less of a big deal. So it feels really gigantic.

Does that mean that you would love to have more than one kid? Or would you like to have a kid that has the same sort of experience as you or it's the only child and you get to just kind of nurture and protect? I actually don't really want to have kids. No, none. You don't? Wait, why? Yeah.

You know, who knows? That could change. Oh, it's not of my business. But, Shawnee, you've never really had any interest in it. Right? I mean, I've said it a million times that I want to want to have kids. Sure. And my husband, Scotty, grew up an only child, and you can use this phrase.

He always says I was spoiled but not rotten. Right. So he was always, he has to learn how, he had to learn everything that you're saying. Like how to diffuse conflict and all that stuff. But yeah, I was, you know, what's, I've said it a million times. on the show that I'd rather regret not having kids than have them and regret it later. Right, right, right.

Because you never know what you're going to get, like the roll of the dice. Do you ever see the show intervention? It's like, if I had a kid, that's where they would end up, like, dragging me through the street, like, fucking drug addict. You would be great. They would be great. I mean, I know what you mean. It's like, I love, like, the fantasy of having a child.

Like, like, naming it sounds so fun. But I'm like, that is exactly a sign to me as to why I should not have one. that that feels like the coolest part about it. Right, right. And like, maybe I'm not ready. You know what I mean? But, you know, all that could change.

If you might, my, my, I mean, I'm sort of, I guess I'm backing in to giving myself a half-ass compliment here, but my wife did not want to have kids. So the story goes. So she tells me. And she didn't. And you adopted yours. And she said once, once we started going out and she was like, okay, I think I can have a kid with this guy.

So you might find somebody. Well, I'm married. Oh, there we go. I got to read a newspaper one of these days. You know, it's okay. That's why you're here. I knew immediately like where you were going to go. I knew my response.

I was looking forward to it. Maybe your next husband you're going to want kids. Yeah, exactly. Let me finish, Charlie. We'll be right back. And now, back to the show. But wait, though, this is really cool. This is so wild.

I did not know this. that so when you start for starting out all the illegal warehouses this is what I read all the illegal warehouses that you would go to you would go to raves and you would what perform there and your parents would not just drop you up they would go inside with you yeah yeah i mean i was so lucky they were very supportive at the time i was like this is so lame like they're cramping my style but you know they were obviously just very very supportive i feel very lucky and so you would play shows at these raves right are they still involved with your career There's a lot of musicians that still have parents that are involved with their career.

Very successful. Mine aren't, but they're still, you know, they're very proud and they're very supportive, but they're not involved in my career, no. Do they ever give you notes on your music? Do they like your music? I'll bet you do. My dad used to love throwing out some suggestions, yes. Very much so.

Ever, anything useful? Anything useful, ever? You know, I think it's like, I feel bad for him because I think, think it's one of those things where even if it was the most amazing idea ever, I think purely because, and this is, he used to do this when I was a lot younger, like purely because he was my dad, he was always going to get the no-what, you know what I mean? Right, right, right. But I'm sure, you know, he's a smart guy.

I'm sure he probably does have good song ideas up there. Can you tell Jason about the story about your dad, somebody tried to sell drugs to your dad at one of the raves? Right. This was actually my mom. Someone tried to sell some drugs to my mom at a rave. What flavor? Yes. Well, I got to say, so listen,

we've gone 17 minutes without Will Arnett, and it's really been great, trying, hasn't it? Kind of been breezy. It's like this was a very useful experiment. Willie, if you ever have an illness or something like that, we're good. We've got you. Yeah.

Or not. Actually, it's really cooking along. great. I can't believe this is like my worst nightmare. Oh, please. Not where we're here for you. What's happening over there? Are you okay?

No, I'm having a stressful day, Charles. Do I call you Charlie? Yeah, we've covered it. Yeah, we've covered it. I've had, Charlie, can I just say, I've had a really, I share with the boys, I won't get into it, but I've had a really stressful day on a personal level.

It's been a very, yeah. I'm sorry. You're going to get into it after. Insert joke here? No. Well, there was an insert joke, yeah. part of the problem I still got it

Charlie I'm sorry to have missed it This is unlike me I'm usually pretty good about this kind of stuff But anyway Don't you worry It's so fun Everybody's got like you know This is one of the best episodes

Because Charlie was a little late You were a little late I'm always a little late I avoid a little teasing That Will undoubtedly would have given me For really having my head up my ass About Charlie and like All Granddad here needed a little update

He didn't know she was the, she born the term brat, you know, with Kamala Harris and all that. I don't think I knew that either. Wow. I know who you are. It's okay. Guys, it's, it's, well, it's. I'm very aware of your music and who you are. It should be noted.

Don't you worry. I'm still listening to Steely Dan, Charlie. Yeah, and that's cool. It's a problem. That's cool. Wait, I just thought it was funny. Well, I was talking about how Charlie's parents used to go with her to the raves that she performed at, like all these parties. That's fun.

And her mom was offered a baggie of... Of, well, of MDMA, but she thought that they said MDF, as in the wood that you can buy to like panel a wall. And my dad was like, we could use some of that, but I don't know how we're going to fit it in the car. And the guy was kind of like, wait, like, how much do you want to buy? And I just thought it was a very sweet story. He's got a lot of tolerance.

They can handle a lot. Yeah, that would be really useful for us, actually. If I think about it at the house, what we could use. By the way, this might be inappropriate. But I am hearing a lot about MDMA. Again, getting back to being an old-timer here, I'm hearing it's quite the thing. What is it?

Is that the horse tranquilizer thing? No. I think it's kind of like ecstasy. It's kind of like what ecstasy used to be, right? Right, yeah. I had a little of that way back in the day, and I'm hearing this MDMA is a good time. I'm not advocating trying it or doing it, kids,

but I hear it's a new thing. Well, they do MDMA therapy now, I think, as well, right? Which is not something that I've tried. I've never done it. I believe it in therapy, like a Friday night therapy. You know what I mean? Just one night. With like a little sidecar of Tito's.

Whatever it is that you like. Whatever makes it go down a little better, you know? Gotcha. Oh, my God. Okay, so wait. So I want to know, okay, so I want to talk about, like, getting in the music stuff. So do you remember the first time? Because I find your story so fascinating that you were so young, and you started, you discovered you had this talent at such a young age, and you were kind of like a superstar, and you flew under

the radar. And then, you know, I knew you probably, like, the world knew you with the, I love it. I don't care. Like that song. So huge. No, I only did. I don't care. I love it.

But you weren't really, like, featured in the video, which I thought was weird. And, like, so what would that like knowing you wrote this song, and this was your song, but was having the success without your face on it, kind of, so to speak? Yeah, no. I mean, it was funny. I had a really sort of, like, strange career in that, like, I was kind of, like, doing a lot of stuff and had some really, really big hits. But I was often either the writer of the song

or the feature of the song, and so, like, nobody really knew who I was. So I did, exactly, as you just said, like completely fly under the radar. Like, I was going to cool shit, like working with incredible people, traveling the world, but was also kind of completely anonymous. So it was very, it was, like, interesting.

And very actually useful, I think, for me, especially with my previous record, Brat, which really did kind of open me to a much wider audience. I think had I not had that experience back in like 2013, 2014 of these like, honestly, like, big chart-topping songs, I probably would be like totally like off my head right now because I wouldn't really be prepared.

Do you know what I mean? Right, right. So, and I would be like a complete nightmare, which maybe I still am. I don't know what I mean? No, you're not. You're not. So, yeah, it was interesting,

and it's kind of like over those years from then to now have sort of like built my like audience, like sort of in a very kind of slow, like organic way. Right, right. So yeah, it's been a kind of interesting path. And tell me, tell these guys, just go ahead, you have free reign to brag all the artists you've written songs for. Not all, but like the, you know.

So you'll write songs for other artists all the time. That you don't necessarily want to perform yourself. Yes. Big hit songs. Yeah. How do you decide? Like, okay,

Selena Gomez, Iggy Azalea, Camila Cabo. Camila Cabo, yeah. Wow. Sean Mendez, right. James Blunt, randomly. Do you write them for them

or you write them thinking that you might do it or they just become a, you're like, hey, I've got a song that I've written or somebody comes to you and says, Charlie Hay, I've got an idea, do this for me. Or can you just write me a song? How does that... It goes every way.

All of those ways are options. Sometimes it's kind of like a... We need songs for XYZ artist and this is what they want to say. And then sometimes it's like, I'll write a song and I'll be like, oh, I thought this was for me, but actually, like, I don't think I should sing like a sort of flamenco-sounding, like, pop song

because that doesn't make it. make sense for me as an artist. What you're writing is the music or the lyrics or both in these cases? I write like the lyrics and the top line, which is sort of the melody that the singer sings. Right. Incredible. Yeah. Because I was surprised a few years ago, I learned that, you know, that it's not that

that uncommon for some of the biggest stars in the world to not write anything ever. It's all incoming. They're just the same. I don't mean to belittle it. They only do the singing and everything else is kind of taken care of. Yeah, but you know what? It's funny. I think there's a real stigma against that, you know,

like that that sort of in some ways, like, makes those people like less of an artist. But I don't really agree with that. I think there's like different types of artistry. Like there's someone who's, there's like a great performer versus a great writer versus a great entertainer versus a really like unbelievable vocalist. I think there's sort of. It would also be like the equivalent, sorry, be the equivalent of like an actor just acting

versus somebody who's also, who writes and directs and produces as well as act. It's like it's really cool that you can do all of those things. Yeah, I mean, I enjoy it. I mean, wait until this movie comes out. And how did that, were one of your parents musically inclined, did they kind of put the bug in you? No, not really. How did you find it?

I think it was, I just, I played piano. Yeah. Growing up, I was sort of studying classical piano. Oh, shawnee. And I, when I was younger, I had no interest in classical music at all. I didn't think it was cool. I didn't get it. Now I feel completely different.

I love classical music. All I listen to. But at the time, I really didn't, I didn't relate to it. And I thought it was kind of embarrassing that I was doing it. So instead, I really was trying to, like, write pop songs and chords and kind of escape out of this classical stuff that I was learning. But that background in that, it must have helped you sort of songwriting-wise. Yes.

Yeah, Elton John talks about that, how that informed a lot of his writing. You know what? It's interesting because I, so when I was studying classical music, I was really basically just doing it to pass the, grades, like the classical grades. And each grade, you would have to learn three pieces of music and then you would do an exam where you would play the pieces of music. And you would also do like site reading and another test.

I can't remember what it was. But I actually couldn't read music. I always really had like trouble reading the music and playing what was there. So I would spend an entire year like learning and practicing these pieces by ear instead of like actually just being able to pick up any piece of music and read it. Yeah, it's called like the Suzuki method, yeah. Sure, I think so, yeah. And so, so, like, I, um, so I, like, couldn't really, like, read any other music.

So I actually have a really, like, low-level knowledge of classical music. So when Elton John's like, oh, yeah, for me it really helped, that's probably because he's obviously fucking Elton John and can probably play, you know, any single thing ever. But I could only really hear things by ear. Right, and also, like, to the extent you feel comfortable talking about synesthesia, because I think it's fascinating. Do you guys know what that is? No. Is it where you see music? You see color. You see music in colors.

Oh, really? Yeah. Can you describe that and how you first found out you had that and how you use it today? Yeah, I mean, it's funny. It's like, I think it's not just about music. It can be, I don't know, some people might be like see the days of the week in colors. It's a kind of color association to a thing and different people have different stuff. I have that. You have that? Yeah, for certain things I have, but I've never thought about it.

But yeah. Really? Wow. For days of the week, you said days of the week, days of the week, days of the weeks have colors for me. Wow, you've just been diagnosed by Charlie and you didn't even know how you had it. I don't know, yeah. And so do you put, what colors Wednesday? Pink.

What? You just made that up. No. Thursday's green. Friday. Friday's orange, Saturday's blue, Sunday's yellow, Monday's blue. Our Fridays, you're in love?

Tuesday's red. Friday's you're in love. I don't care what money. It's going to cost us to. But anyway, sorry, but it's not as evolved as yours. No, I mean, so it's basically just for me, it's like I was, when I first started realizing that I guess I had it, and I didn't really know what it was when I was sort of figuring it out,

was when I was working with producers and I would sort of say, like, can you make this sound more blue or more purple? And I wouldn't quite be able to articulate specifically the sound design that I needed, but I just knew that it needed to sound purple. And then when the producer would help generate that sound, I would say, like, that's it, that's the purple.

That's purple or whatever. And so now do you have to work with that producer all the time? Well, yeah, I mean, I do work with the same people quite a lot. I mean, they know. They definitely know what I mean. when I say something. Have you ever tried, like, I don't know how to explain this. Have you ever, like, listen to one of your own songs

and tried to paint it as you've listened to it? Yeah, so it's going to ask that. I haven't, actually, but I think I do sort of like see it, kind of. And when I listen to other music, I kind of like, I see it in a way. I'm like, oh, this song evokes this color immediately. And do you ever reverse engineer that? And for inspiration, when you write a song, Like, you know, we always ask a lot of musicians, what comes first, the lyrics or the music.

Do you ever see a color first, and then music comes from that? More recently, no. It's really generated specifically by when I hear sound. Then I start thinking about color. But on this last record, to be honest, a lot of the songs were generated from, like, lyrical-based ideas. Like, I was really leading with lyrics. Is that new? Is that, like, a departure from... Yeah, yeah, because I used to kind of write phonetically where I would sort of...

of go into the booth and just kind of record like a kind of like an ad lib track where I'd be like like blah blah blah blah and then I would fit like lyrics to the vowel sounds that I was creating. Yeah, that's cool. But now, yeah, more recently I'm becoming much more lyric led because I think I, on the last record I had some like really specific stories that I wanted to tell and I didn't feel. and I didn't feel, I don't know, I just felt like I really wanted to kind of throw out any like tropes that I had previously used in the past. Like I particularly wasn't interested in rhyme with this record. I just wanted to like say the direct dialogue from my brain in the way that I would text a friend.

Like I think that became like kind of the tone of the record. Yeah. So are you ever doing it on piano based on your sort of your history with piano? Do you ever do that? To be honest, no. my music is very electronic. Yeah. And kind of, especially on the last record,

like very club-based dance music. So I wasn't really going to the piano too much. But given what you were saying about how you're much more lyric-driven right now, there's certain things that you really like talking about and saying and communicating, how important is it to you that people hear every word in the lyrics? Because, like, I'll try to follow lyrics. And, you know, some folks, they don't really, you know, they won't screw up the song to enunciate, you know.

Sometimes it sounds better to just kind of mumble it out. And I get that. Yeah. But you're like, motherfucker, I want to hear what you're saying. Yeah. That's what you look on Apple Music for the lyrics, right? Right, right. I do that too.

I don't really care about enunciation, to be honest. I think it's if you... Overrated. Yeah, it's overrated. And also, I'd love to hear, you know, your interstate. of what I'm saying rather than what I'm actually saying because, you know, no one fact checks anyway anymore. So it's fun to just play into it.

Yeah, yeah. Sorry, Sean, go ahead. No, I was just going to say, how do you know when a song, I don't think we've ever asked this of any musician on the show. How do you know what a song is done? Because it's like in film editing, you could just do it forever. Like you could just tweak and tweak and tweak. So for you, when you write, all these massive hit songs, this long list of all these huge

songs that how do you know when you're done? I mean, I think it's different for everyone, but for me, I mean, people can go for ages on a song as well and really like chip back into it over and over again in the way that you would with an edit. But for me, that's my nightmare. Like I think there's a real charm in spontaneity. And that's like a big part of my process as an artist, as a writer. It's really that like instinctual kind of first reaction to something

that there is something almost like charming and naive to it sometimes. You know when you're a kid and you're coming up with ideas? Like if a kid writes a song, sometimes they could like say something so profound and like actually really surreal and abstract that as an adult it might take you a while to kind of think of or something and then it might even feel too forced. I feel like that's, for me, it's like the same when I'm writing.

I'm like, the first idea is often just way more, I don't know, like, unique than when I've sat down and really thought about it for a while. So I really try and just like capture the moment in that kind of a way. Do you know, do you know when you have finished a song, do you ever get that sense where you go, this is a hit song? I can feel it and, for real. I mean, you must have those. I do, but it's like those ones are always the ones that actually end up sucking.

You know what I mean? It's like, I mean, it's like, I'm sure, I don't know if you guys have this when you're writing or when you're performing. If ever you think you kill it, you probably didn't. You know what I mean? It's like one of those moments. And also, if it's immediately catchy, you can get sick of it really quick. and those are the ones that are probably too simplistic

or a public might get tired of too fast, and it doesn't have important. Possibly. I also think it's funny. I think we're in this kind of new era of creativity as a whole. I definitely feel this way about writing songs. I don't know how you guys feel about this, but I think we live in such a reference-heavy world now that I think things can kind of become catchy or earworms

or something that you want to revisit, for other reasons outside of maybe they're like really dynamically written or the melody is technically good. It could actually just be you're referencing something that's so within the zeitgeist, that that itself is like the hook of it. And I think that's a really interesting way of writing. Like it's more like topical writing.

Well, I think that that probably happens a lot. We have like, think about all the, you know, the songs that we love sort of for nostalgic reasons, right? that other people might be like, yeah, that song doesn't really mean much to me? You're like, really? Doesn't it remind you of that summer when we were 17? They're like, no, not really.

Yeah, sorry. Right, right, for sure. And we will be right back. And now back to the show. What's the turnaround time for a song? Because if you were trying to follow trend with film, it'd be a fool's errand because it takes about a year to turn a movie around

from when you started to cut it to release it, I mean, at a minimum. How long does it take to turn a song around? I could, like, a day. I mean, I mean, sometimes you write, I wrote, I love it in 30 minutes, which is the one that you were singing amazingly. But it's not, that's not me being like, aren't I amazing? I mean, the lyrics are like on repeat.

It's not, you know what I mean? It's like, but it's just, I think it's just like, we have this saying like me and a couple of my collaborators where it's like, you have to dare to suck, right? And sometimes in like daring to suck, actually the most fucking like universal genius idea comes out where you're just being stupid. I've been daring to suck my whole life by it.

If I'm being honest. If I was sitting in a studio and I was writing, I mean, I could 360 Apple, whatever. But since you said it, I love it, I don't care. And I would be like, guys, what about this? I love it. I don't care. I wouldn't have the confidence to be like,

yeah, I think that's going to work. You know what I mean? But that's it, right? It's like commitment to the bit, you know? Yeah. That's all it is. It's like if I like came to you guys with my tail between my legs and like sung those words, like, fucking whatever. But if I like tell you know this is like fucking the shit and it's so good.

And like it's even if you think it's dumb, it's like that's the point. I'm so inspired by you right now. It is. I mean, I am too. Like where did you get that from, Charlie? Yeah. And that's a great environment to provide. for the people around you.

You must enjoy that leadership position of creating harmony and your works so it feels safe and there's no bad ideas. We can be foolish. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, it's fun. I think there's this idea that I sometimes disagree with

that like making good art has to be hard. And like sometimes I really disagree with that. But sometimes I'm like, no, I'm in pain and I'm a real art. and I like to kind of like penduling swing between both of those things. But I don't know. I think, yeah, it's funny. I'm always very, I have always been very interested in, like,

the connectivity between high and low. That's always just been like something that's been really inspiring to me. And I think that whole like daring to suck mentality, it's very sort of like, I don't know, like factory warholian in a way. It's like paint the soup, just fucking paint it. Yeah, well, I think that it's also about the idea of like, I remember having this teacher once years ago telling me like art is absence of ego. Like if you can get to the place where you're not judging it in real time where you can let go

and you guys know what it means too when you're doing what we do or whatever, where you can get to that place where you're not judging it and you're just in the, for lack of a better word, flow and you're just in that thing. Yeah. That's that pocket when you didn't get. Those two, the people you're around, they'll yes and it. Yeah, yes. And you can kind of, and they're like, you don't worry about it.

You're not worried about the result of it. You're not thinking about how it's coming across. You're not thinking, you get out of the results and just, then those moments are magic. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And what I also think, and I'm not sure of you guys feel this way, but I think the second I try and write for someone else or to appeal to lots of people. It's like everything kind of falls apart

and actually it's like that more like potent vision where maybe you're even just like selfishly writing for yourself really like directly about your experience or your experience with one friend or like whatever it is like the more kind of like potent and distilled it is it weirdly actually then becomes something that more people can relate to because it's so singular.

Because you believe it and you're doing it for you And what's funny is we live in this world increasingly because of whatever, social media, et cetera, where we do, it is all about this. There is so much feedback constantly on what we do. So it's harder and harder to get away from that. And what's funny is, just hearing you say it, is that we need to kind of reject that. In order to make something really pure in that way, we need to reject the idea of what other people will like, even though the final product of what we do

is for public consumption. Mass public consumption, too. You know, so it's kind of contradictory to the exercise in a way, and yet that's the thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it is a conflict for sure.

With all the success you've had, Charlie, like three Grammys, and one Grammy show, in one year? at the same show. That's crazy. Yeah. Three Grammys. What, and you see,

and like I keep saying over and over, I'm just like so impressed by your talent at such a young age that you, somebody, your parents, you, whoever, encouraged you to keep going with that. And then now that you are older and knock on wood, hopefully wiser, what's the part of the music industry

that shocked you the most, you know, once you were actually inside of it? You know, like if you knew then what you know now? Just how, no one really knows what they're doing. Right. Isn't that the truth? That is the truth.

It's very funny. It's just sort of... And you thought the difference. Yeah, I was like, oh, this must be run by a really like tight ship of people who like know what's up. And no. It's like, it's not really the case.

Nor is it, I think, ever the case in any sort of like creative field. It's like the artists know what they're doing and then hopefully you have people with brains to facilitate you and then not annoying really is like kind of the vibe right yeah yeah it's funny do you feel like they're like kind of also you you create the stuff and then the business sort of reacts to it they're much more reactionary rather right so and then they're always trying to recreate with other people like that whole

idea yeah and and you know what like I think when I was younger that used to really bother me but I I think now you know it doesn't I think that's just obviously that's just the way it is it's like I couldn't be a record label exec. Like I couldn't work like at distribution company. Like I, you know, it's like I, that's not the brain that I have. I have a different kind of brain where I'm like, why don't we fly planes through the sky that say Brat summer or whatever? You know, it's like, and then they figure out how to do it.

Like, I don't know. It's like, but I did used to be sort of frustrated by why can't you all be on my page with my ideas but actually that would be a nightmare because then it would be less about me which would be awful right right right all right do you remember the first time you walked on stage and felt like um the wall of sound coming at you and like uh wow like just that feeling of like was it were you like oh shit i didn't think it was going to be like this or that's too many people yeah exactly you know no i think because my career was such a slow burn like when i started when I was 15, I was playing to like rooms of three people and that was like my two parents and the promoter.

Do you know what I mean? I was like welcoming more people in a way. And over the past sort of 10, 15 years, like it's really grown like gradually and gradually and gradually from like 100 cap rooms to 1,000 rooms to now finally being in arenas. and the first time when I did step out into playing an arena, I just remember being like, well, there's going to be no one there. And all the tickets have been bought by bots. Like that is what I convinced myself in my mind. I was like, no, it's going to be so embarrassing.

All the tickets are gone, but they're all bots. Like, you know? And so it was like a really pleasant surprise. So on this film, was it, was it? Was it just purely for like a musical film to sort of augment the musical venture and all that stuff? Or was there a bit of an acting sort of curiosity there too? And if so, do you see that being a part of your world going forward? Yeah, I've been acting a little bit now and producing.

You're liking it? Honestly, I love it. I mean, I feel like I – it was funny. like once my album Brat did well, there was obviously this opportunity for me to just make another album exactly like that and like kind of gain, like capitalize on it. Sure. And for me, I've always had this sort of motto of like, what would Chloe Seven you do? And I feel like what she would have done would just be like, like, no, baby, I'm doing that.

That's a great title to your new album. What would Chloe Seven you do? Well, it's like she's the coolest. And it's like, I think she would just probably. be like, no, I quit music, you know? So I was kind of like, okay, I think I would like to sort of do some kind of a drastic pivot where I, yeah, I kind of explore acting. I mean, I'm watching films like all the time, like more than I've ever listened to.

I basically never listen to music apart from like Lou Reed and like The Velvet Underground and like John Kale's solo stuff. That's like kind of it. Yeah. Right. Do you have a favorite this year? Favorite film this year that I've seen. I just watched Surat the other night.

Oh, yeah? I don't want to see that. Oh, is it good? I want to see that too. It was really, really, really, really amazing. Really amazing. I also love this film, Atropia, which is this film by Haley Gates, who is in, and Callum Turner is in it.

Oh, yeah. It's like a really, it's like very, very, like, funny, like, satire on that sort of, like, fake military zone that they have. That sounds great. It's great. It's really great. But, yeah, so I'm kind of like really enjoying watching. So I kind of started asking like a few of my friends who are either like directors or writers.

Like do you think I could kind of do this? And they were like, yeah, but like don't be embarrassing about it. Like you don't want to be like the girl who's like, I'm an actress now. So I was like, yeah, no. No, no. I bet you'd be great. You have a great presence. I agree.

I think your approach artistically the way that you look at stuff, I think, is really appropriate for it. Well, thanks. Yeah, I mean, I was interested in just doing, like, small things. Yeah, smart. So I was really lucky to kind of... I did, like, this Gregoraki movie

that I'm, like, super excited about. I'm really excited to work with Takashi Miquet this year on this film that I'm going to produce, which is, like, crazy to me to, like, go to Japan and shoot with, like, a horror altar. I'm like, this is insane. So, yeah, I'm really enjoying it. I'm really enjoying it.

Total, like, crazy segue to nothing. But I just wanted to mention this. I thought it was so wild that you had an angel phone. Is that true, where fans could call a number and you would actually answer and pick up at any time of the day? No way. Is that true? Yeah, you know, it didn't last long because it was a nightmare.

I'm sure. Like five minutes in. Yeah, yeah. It was good for, like, a good, solid, you know, like five hours, but it was stacked. slammed, slam, slam. But you guys should do one of them, you know, one day for an hour.

Yeah, it would be fine. We'd be sitting by the phone. It would not read. It would be so embarrassing. Then it would be one call with a bunch of notes. You guys here. This is what you need to fix. And the last thing I read that's really interesting.

That's a little like me, but you have 14 alarm times saved on your phone, but none of them are on. I've got that. Yeah. I'm never really. putting them on. So is it like...

What do you mean? You don't believe in alarms? What's the deal? No, it's not sort of a political stance. It's more just like... I generally like I do kind of wake up roughly at the same time

unless I've been partying and then I might put an alarm on, you know? Right, right, right, right. What's the time? What's the time you generally wake up? It really depends if I've been traveling on... I'm a bit jet lagged at the moment, so I'm waking up at seven,

which is very early for me. That's early. Normally I'm like a 9.30 kind of girl. So you're going to bed at 2 or 3 in the morning? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that.

Yeah, you should. Yeah, me too. Hey, what about travel? How do you like that part of the business? Because it is a necessary component to music, right? Yeah, you must be on the road all the time. Yeah. You have to tour, right?

You can't just sell albums. No. I hate touring. I hate touring. and I really do it in quite a specific way where I think compared to a lot of my peers, I'm not really doing that much touring. My husband's in a band and they tour so much.

Like all the time, I think their last album they toured for like two years or something like that, which is like just not an option for me. But you'll go with them, yeah, for a bit. Sometimes you kind of pop in every once in a while. I'll pop in. I'll pop in on like the coastal cities, you know? But I'm, yeah, I'm not like, I'm not like on the bus, which is like, no way.

And what about him? For my sister, for Jason and my sister, George Daniel is the 1975. That's the band. Oh, wow. Roger, Roger, okay. And then he will reciprocate and he'll come see you every once in a while when you're doing some touring. Yes, exactly. But he, it's kind of, I think, a bit harder for him because he's sort of like a six-foot,

for bald man and my fans are all a lot shorter than that and so it's very like easy for him to be like spotted when he's sort of bopping around so yeah but it's sweet we do yeah we we swap we go back and forth

who are the musicians that you listen to when you're growing up that you like what was the pop music pop music or any kind of music who are the bands that inspired you I was pretty diverse. I mean, I think when I was a lot younger, I was very into, like, Britney and the Spice Girls. That was definitely my bread and butter.

And then as I got a bit older, I was really into The Cure to Kate Bush, to Suis and the Baran Shees, like that kind of a world. And then I got very into, like, French electro kind of stuff, like Darth punk and justice and, like, that kind of world. So sort of all over the shop, really. And I have a question about touring because these people are...

I like French music too. Same. You do? What do you listen to your French? I listen to like La Fam. I love that band La Fam. I think that they're really cool. Charlie, what's the big...

Okay, here, we're done with that. Thank you, sorry. Yeah. No, keep going. Give more bad. Sorry, man. I didn't know I was boring you. She didn't want to hear about La Farm anymore.

I was ready to go there, actually. But no, we'll... No, go. Are there a lot of animals sounds? We have a great song called Tatiana. It's an amazing song by LaFarme. It's just an absolute bangor. Oh, yeah?

No, tell us more about that. Charlie, before you go, I want to know when you were touring, the biggest, when you were touring, the biggest on-stage flub or concert blooper or whatever that you just will never forget, like something that just went totally wrong. He loves the stage stories. I love my stage stories.

Oh, my gosh. Like a fan that did something or a song that you screwed up or somebody. I mean, I can't, I don't know. I'm not sure I've had any really. really disastrous, like, on stage moments where I've really, like, fall. I mean, I've definitely fallen, but not in a way that I've found embarrassing or anything like that. But I do, I used to get a lot of strange gifts from fans.

And I think those will always stick with me. My two favorites were I got a douche, which I was asked to sign. You're welcome. And then I also received a jar of somebody's mother's ashes as a necklace. Oh. Wow. And I did exactly that well. I went, oh, didn't really, I wanted to be grateful and not offensive, but also was terrified.

So it was, you know, so those memories will always stick me. What about dancing and singing at the same time? I always marvel at how you guys don't run out of breath, because you have to have a lot of breath to sing well. Yeah, you've got to keep moving. Not even just dancing, just moving around. Yeah, I mean, okay, so Jason, like one thing about me is I don't really like dance. You'll go away and do a deep dive and you'll... I'm going to do a deep dive and then I'm going to call you back and say,

God damn, can we do this over? But see, this is what's so great about these things. You know, we get to become smarter. We're smart less people. Exactly, exactly, exactly. No, my dancing is very, it's sort of like a lot of like, flailing and it's very kind of, it's not very coordinated.

You're the Tom York of, uh, yeah. I mean, not far off. It's very kind of like, like that, it's possession and vibes. I don't worry, I love it. I'm, I'm, it's less, I'm not as like poised as most. So I get the benefit of being able to sort of just, yeah, I don't have to like hit marks and do

choreo. I'm more just sort of flailing around. So it's a little easier for me. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, listen, Charlie X-E-X, which now that I know where the name comes from, it makes me love you more.

Will, I'll clue you in later. Yeah, clue me in. I don't care. I love it. I want to say that. Nice. No, and I want to say, I'm so, I'm such an even bigger fan. Yeah.

You're so cool. Oh, thanks. I listen to your music when I go on walks all the time. I love it. I'm going to listen to it even more now with just like more depth to just knowing a little bit more about you. I just think that you're awesome.

Awesome, yeah. You were awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks. And just for, am I getting this right? The moment is, it's out now by the time this episode comes out. It's out now. Maybe.

I'm sure. Well, it was released January 30th. Yeah, this is a mockumentary. Okay. Absolutely adore you. I think you're the coolest chick ever. I want to be you for Halloween. Oh, thanks, guys.

Thank you for doing this. I look forward to seeing that. Yeah. Okay. Thank you very much. Bye. Hi, hi. Bye, everybody.

Bye, bye, bye, bye, bye. What a nice person. Wow, she is. Something else. Yeah. You missed a real good first half. I know. I'm so...

You got to listen to this episode, Willie. I can't wait. No. This is... You're on it. You're in the episode. I've had one of those. This is the episode where they go, where they go,

you know what? It's better without them. Yeah, no, I told you. I know. You did. It's like, it's just... She is... Talk about it.

Talk about an impressive artist and person and just right. And just like, yeah, she's one of those... Like, what is that? How do you describe that? She's just... She's got it. It's really cool. It's probably not her first lap.

No, but, you know, if you believe in that sort of old soul thing, you know, like some people have been around a few times. Yes, and exactly. And, you know, and it's not just, she's not polished. She's so real and authentic to who she is. Yeah, it's amazing. No filter. This is unapologetic.

I love her. I know. When we were talking before, Willie, about songs that I love for her albums, especially off of Brat. Here we go. Listen to all the hits. Sure. We list it.

I just want you to go down the left. Did anything pop out to you? Yeah. Well, Von Dutch Talk Talk, Talk, you know, Apple was huge. Like all those songs. But your favorite would be. And Brad, of course. But my favorite was on the deluxe version that I was on Jason about.

It's called Hello. Good. Goodbye. Bye. Everybody. All right. X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, Smartless. Smartless is 100% organic.

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