SmartLess - “David Byrne”

Episode Date: January 17, 2022

We’re SmartLess, so things Stopped Making Sense a while ago… but it’s David Byrne, people!Please support us by supporting our sponsors!FanDuel Disclaimer: 21+ and present in AZ, CO, CT, IA, IL, IN, MI, NJ, PA, TN, VA, or WV. New users only. $10 first deposit required. Must wager in designated offer market. Max bonus $150. Bonus for TN users fulfilled in site credit within 72 hours. TN site credit expires 14 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See full terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Gambling Problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit FanDuel.com/RG (CO, IA, MI, NJ, PA, IL, VA), 1-800-NEXT-STEP or text NEXTSTEP to 53342 (AZ), 888-789-7777 or visitccpg.org/chat (CT), 1-800-9-WITH-IT (IN), TN REDLINE 1-800-889-9789 (TN), or visit 1800gambler.net (WV).See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hi, my name is Jason, that's Shawn, I'm Will, hi, Shawn's over there, and that's Shawn's for today's show. And then you're going to show up to today. We have a very smart guest, but first, let's harmonize the word, ready? Let's, smart, let's, smart, let's, smart, let's, smart, let's. What do you guys think about my new top today? I was just going to say, I was just going to comment on it. First of all, I'm gay and I don't call it a top.

I call it a shirt. Wow. It's a cute top. Yeah. Very cute top. You guys ever go through your closet or open up a drawer and go, oh, hello, I've been avoiding you for a long time. And today is your day.

And you put it on. I don't talk to any of my clothes. I do that. Come on. I do that, actually. Do you not? You don't really, you don't talk to your clothes? Well.

Shawn, so the stuff that you're wearing, this is the stuff you're not avoiding. Imagine what the stuff you are avoiding. I mean, I just. It's like a deck of cards on a shirt. What is happening? When did you officially hit fuck it because it's, it's been a minute, right? Oh, hey, hey, hey, mystery guest. Mystery guest.

Yeah. He's very engaged. Wait, I want to ask you something, Jason, about that. When you pick out the thing. Because I know what exactly you're talking about. I have so many clothes, well, because of the pandemic, you just kind of wear casual, comfortable clothes all the time. Yeah.

But I've got a big, a big afternoon in front of me. Oh, he does. Well, well, it looks like you're going to be late. No, no, no, I'm going to be right on time. When was the last time you. You guys are playing golf again today? That's so new. No, no, no, no.

You guys are really branching out. No, no, no, no. We have a meeting. We're going to do some charity. Shawn, when was the last time you wore a tie, like a jacket and tie or a suit? Well, there's no reason. So many years. How about underwear?

Just underwear. Well, again, no reason. It's been many years. Jason, tie. Last time you wore a tie. In a fitting yesterday. Oh. How fitting.

Remember, we were there, we saw those clothes yesterday at your office, Shawn and I were there. Now, what's going on with the top hat? Did you end up, are you wearing the top hat in any of the scenes? It never went on. It never went on. Wait, Tracy, we went, all three of us met at Jason's office and he had racks and racks of clothing and hats like top hats and cowboy hats.

Just to go out for dinner. Just to go out for dinner. He was trying. No. This is for a project or as the Canadian say, project. Project. When do you shoot that project? Tomorrow morning.

Oh, three days. Oh, you start tomorrow. Just one day? Three days. Three days. Three days. Most people would be one day, but they know just for him. I have a process.

He has a whole, believe me, he has a process. You better shut up. Anybody who's out there right now who knows Jason knows he has a process and is nodding their head. That's enough. By the way, our buddy, Eli, moved some brushes because we mentioned his, uh, uh, Vouchade brushes. What do you mean moved some brushes?

What does that mean? That's, that's cool for sell. Most people were able to check out his brushes because, because I talked about his brushes. Hey, listen. Yeah. Oh boy. Here we go. Nice transition.

Yeah. Let's get to the guests. I want to get to the guests because I've been nervous for a minute about this guest. I'm, I'm truly, uh, starstruck and, and I'm a little, you can see I'm a little shaky. This, this person's music has, uh, played a huge role, certainly in my life and lots of people's lives and, and you guys are very familiar with who this person is. This person is a, quite honestly, it's, it's rare that you get to say living legend. Uh, this person was born in Scotland.

That's something I did not know before I started investigating. Yeah. Uh, but it's really known as kind of an American icon. Uh, this part of person was part of a band that, uh, that garnered a lot of success and a lot of awards and was very influential starting, starting in the seventies, moving into the eighties. Uh, there were very few bands, uh, that I listened to that I loved more than, than that band went on to have a very successful, uh, solo career.

This person has won an Academy Award for scoring a film, uh, the film, The Last Emperor. This person has won Grammys. This person has won every imaginable award. This person's latest record that they put out a few years ago. He turned into a Broadway play, which is now playing at the St. James Theater in New York. The name is American Utopia. This person is none other than Mr. David. Wait a second.

Oh my gosh. David Bern. There we go. David Bern. Whoa. Oh my gosh. There we go. That was a little bit embarrassing, but okay.

I'm, I'm so sorry to do that to you. I don't want to put you on the spot, but it's all true, David, and I'm, we're so absolutely thrilled to have you here. This is wild to meet you. I will. How did you do this? I don't know. Will, how did you do this?

What, what do you have, what do you have on it? David, does Will have photos on you or something that he leveraged to book this? Did he say, I will expose these photos. You will be there at 9 a.m. Good God. David, let me start by saying a truly a great moment in my life where I really felt like I was successful as a father was about two years ago when my then 11 year old son Archie, I heard he, I, he'd given him an old record player and he was in his room playing records

and I heard him playing stop making sense, talking had your live record from his bedroom unprompted on his own over and over and I was like, I've done it. I've created a smart, you know, a kid with good taste. Well, happy to serve that function. Yeah. You know what's so cool, David, I've never met you, I'm, I'm a huge fan. I can't believe you're on this podcast. It's so cool.

I was first introduced to you as a kid as most people were through MTV and music videos, especially burning down the house when they, which they played, I feel like every five minutes. That and Frankie goes to Hollywood. It was like the first big, like that's all you saw on MTV. Yeah. It was so cool. It was really, really cool.

And so you were part of, I think the boom of colliding music and videos with the birth of MTV, you were, you benefited just like so many artists did from seeing you first and then listening to your records, wasn't, I mean, there was this huge part of the movement. Absolutely. We were doing all right, but we really kind of broke through with videos and MTV for those who don't remember at that time used to play music videos, videos, back to back nonstop 24 seven. And it was a cable show and not a lot of people had cable, but you could see it in bars instead

and like instead of having football or ESPN on the, over the bar, they'd have like these music videos playing all the time. So they were desperate for content. So if we could do something, you can't do it and hand it to them and within like a week, it was on the air, which is kind of incredible. You couldn't get a record out that fast. Right. And it was, it was a fun way to help publicize the music too, because you could put some

fun images to that music as well. And that would sort of augment the whole experience and, and that's kind of gone away now. I mean, I know videos are still being made, but they don't quite have the same splashy distribution and exhibition that they used to with MTV. Now it's kind of, you got to find it on YouTube or Vimeo or things like that. Is that correct? That is correct. Or some of the streaming services have like, you scroll down and there's the artist videos

and think you see things down there. But it's, yeah, it doesn't have the same impact as just so many of them now. Were you one of those guys who hated making them because you're like, I'm a musician. I don't want to be on camera, but maybe felt forced to do it because that was the thing. Or did you enjoy making them? I loved it. Oh wow. My ambition when I was younger was not to be a musician.

I mean, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed making music, but to be an artist of some sort. So I thought, oh, here we go. Now I get to do that. And I get to have an outlet for it and people will see it because MTV will play it. Yeah. I got that. Yeah, I got that impression.

So you were, visual art is a sort of a big component and always has been a kind of a running theme, you know, throughout your, as an artist throughout your career. Certainly. I mean, talking about music videos, we talked about stop making sense. You guys made that film in the early 80s with Jonathan Demi directed it, correct? Is that right? Yes. I mean, that was kind of a, not a lot of people had released, you know, sort of video albums

in that way or made a film about, I guess there's like the Last Waltz maybe, but that's kind of different. This was like a purpose driven thing that you guys, it wasn't your swan song. This was part of the music was this, this bigger sort of art. There was a whole other aspect to the art of what you guys were doing. Yeah. That film, Jonathan's film made it obvious that yes, there was a whole visual aspect to the show and our performance and lighting and dancing and all kinds of stuff going on.

So yeah. And your passion lives more in sort of the bigger show of it all, right? Not just music, but also visuals, not just visuals, but also movement and costume and thematics. And yes. I mean, is that, and is that sort of what has driven you towards American Utopia? And if so, can you describe for folks who aren't familiar with American Utopia, what that creative endeavor is for you?

Oh, okay. Well, we're doing a show on Broadway now, which was derived from a concert tour that we did. And for the concert tour, I had an idea that we could all be wireless. Everybody in the band could be mobile, which meant that instead of having one drummer on a kit, we had to have six drummers wearing harnesses, like a marching band or a second line or something like that. And then the other musicians, keyboard singers, guitar, everything else is also in motion.

That meant that we could do this whole kind of choreography thing and make shapes with our bodies and kind of formations and all that kind of stuff. So that evolved for this concert tour that we did. And then people saw it and thought, this is really visual. And it's got the beginning of a kind of story arc to it, and they said, why don't you try it? Do you want to bring it to Broadway? Do it on a Broadway theater?

And I thought, I'd love to try that. It's a very different crowd. People come with completely different expectations. People don't go to Broadway shows for a concert. They go for something with some kind of story and narrative line, and they want to be taken on a journey from A to B or whatever it is. So I started making adjustments to the show, adding more talking things, adding things where it kind of begins slowly and introducing the whole idea of us moving around and doing

different stuff. So that's what it became. And it addresses a lot of the issues, subjects, and stuff that we're living with now. That was part of the concert thing, but it became even more so when it went to a theater. Like social issues? Yeah, I mean, we talk about immigration. They're all just just touch on them. I'm not like preaching, talk about diversity, immigration, race, voting.

They all just get touched on kind of sometimes lightly, sometimes with a little more emphasis. It does seem that your approach to music, and certainly as you describe this, this theater experience, it's not simple stuff. It is in a great way. It is complicated, and it's layered, and it's... And big themes. Yeah, yet the execution is sometimes very micro in a great way, too. So there's this complicated balance, certainly from a very intelligent man, clearly.

It is sophisticated. It is high-brow, yet somehow it's also very entertaining at its base level. You need not see the stuff that's lurking underneath that you can also just enjoy it for the toe-tapping. You've always managed this incredible cocktail and combination of things. In the process of communicating that to the necessary team it takes to do all this stuff, whether you're doing an album or a theater or a player or something, do you enjoy the process of communicating that level of complexity to your collaborators?

Or do you wish they could just read your mind? Or do you enjoy bringing people through that complicated target? We enjoy it as the consumers of it, but the process of executing it, it does take a team, and do you enjoy being that leader? I enjoy the creative aspect of it. The communication part, I would say that back when I did Stop Making Sense, I seemed to recall that I was more of a little tyrant. Hey, listen, that takes a big person to admit.

I got my vision, and this is what we have to do, and you have to do this, and you do this. I realized over the years that there's ways to get an equally good result without just kind of bossing people around and yelling at people. Jason. A lot of commands. Jason, are you listening to what David's saying? I feel like he's looking at my quadrant, isn't he?

Yeah, he's really looking at you. Everybody's looking at you. David, well, David, let me just ask you kind of to that. So then you have, I mean, your lyrics, could you ever have imagined as a young songwriter and artist that you would, like once in a lifetime, for instance, the song, the lyrics have been used and taken hostage and thrown around and used in all sorts of different contexts. Could you ever have imagined that one of your songs would sort of permeate our sort of

the cultural consciousness so much? And how do you, does that make you feel strange? Is it weird? No, I never imagined that that could happen, but that I knew that from my own experience, there were songs and artists and movies and everything that just kind of becomes part of the cultural language. You know, I know in my day it was like, you're talking to me, you're talking to me, you're talking to that kind of thing, and you go, well, just part of the cultural thing now.

And he probably didn't know it when he was doing that scene. But yeah. No, and I think from what I heard, that was improvised. But those like, that's such a, I mean, that, I'm going to read now, which is like, I can't imagine how or where you were when you wrote, and you may ask yourself, how do I work this? And you may ask yourself, where is that large automobile? You may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful house, and you may tell yourself, this is not my beautiful wife, iconic lyrics, where were you at when you wrote those lyrics?

It was a young man living in a loft apartment in the Lower East Side. It was a walk up, I forget how many flights it was, oh man, it was like seven flights up, a walk up. And I thought, that's not legal. Yes. With no air conditioning I'm sure. If there's a fire, I'm done. Yes, I'm done.

But how old a man were you? Were you 21? Were you 25? Were you? I was at least 25. I might have been 25. I think I was inspired by gospel preachers on the radio preachers. There was, I don't know if it's still there, but there were radio channels that were just

all preaching all the time. And you could tune in and just, somebody was ranting about something. And you just go, hey, that attitude, if I can kind of pretend that I'm one of those guys and just let's see what comes out. So I just started, you know. That particular, those particular lyrics, were you talking about a place that you found yourself in, a place of privilege and accomplishment that you felt less worthy of than perhaps you wanted to?

And that's where those lyrics came from? I don't know. It wasn't that thought out. Sure. They just started pouring out. I had a little, well, there's a little hand tape recorders, and I just like jump around and pretend I was a preacher and turn on the little tape recorder and do that and then eventually kind of play it back and write some of the stuff down and then do it again

until I had like, I thought, oh, look, look, look, I got some lyrics here. So it was a little bit arbitrary at that point. I think you're saying, has it always, have lyrics always sort of come from kind of an arbitrary place? I bet not. I'm sure that they, well, I don't know. My question is, when you write lyrics, is it usually a somewhat of a cathartic experience for you?

It often is. Yeah. Yeah. It's often like slightly cathartic. It's often a surprise to me. And I look at it, what I've written and go, where did that come from? What are you, what dark thing are you referring to here? But it kind of goes back to what I was originally saying, or asking, which is, so then somebody

takes that lyric that you've written in this moment, whatever the inspiration is in your the gospel music, whatever, and you're singing into the tape recorder. And then years throughout the course of 30, 40, 50 years, people take that as an artist. How do you, you know, how do you feel about, or do you enjoy the process of people taking your art and looking into it and reading into it in different ways and appreciating it on different levels? Does that? Honestly, it's very flattering, and sometimes I have to admit, sometimes they reveal the

meaning of the lyrics I've written in ways that I didn't know. It takes, sometimes it takes somebody else to point out to me, oh, this is what you were writing about here. And I'll go. Oh, yeah. Of course. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. Yeah. As opposed to what just sounded good. Oh, that was just rhymed. No, no. No, you were actually saying something. I mean, there's other times when I've done, I've done a couple of musicals, and those you really have to write from a character's point of view.

You have to write from the moment, the kind of the emotion that they're feeling at that part of the story and all that kind of thing. So that's a very different, very different, that's very intentional, you're kind of thinking. And we will be right back. And now, back to the show. When you're working on those musicals, because I know. Here he comes. Here he comes.

David, have you seen Promises, Promises? I have not. I have not. It's okay. That's the Bert Backrack musical, is that what it is? Yes. Probably. Yes.

You know what do you get when you fall in love? Yeah. Oh. Yeah, I love his song, his songwriting. How does it go? All right. So when you're doing something, when you're writing for musicals, I know it can be a grind because you're in development for years, you're writing and rewriting and writing, isn't

that? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, one of them I did, took about eight years from conception to finally getting it on stage. That's a long time. Yeah. And what do you do with the songs that you throw out, that the producers or the director is like, ah, it's not working.

We need another one. And K and Sean have them. Yeah. Just a workshop. Some of them might be able to be reused, but some of them are so specific to a character and a particular story that you go, there's nowhere else this can go. So it's just like, okay, that's in the trash heap. I know, I read about like the classical musical composers who did like Broadway musicals like

before I was born, they would do that all the time. They would reuse stuff. They would go, oh, this got cut from that show. I'll use it in this other show. But the songs were, their songs were kind of modular. You know, there'd be like a love song and a let's dance song or whatever. Right. How did you enjoy the process of scoring a, scoring a film?

Yeah. And how did you get into that? I think I, I'm going to guess I got into it because I scored a dance performance. A choreographer, Twyla Tharp asked me to write music for a kind of evening length, a long dance piece that she was doing. She took a chance on me and I think maybe some film people heard that and said, oh, he can do, he can do this. And let's take a chance with this.

This would be an interesting thing to get people who aren't normally doing a film scores to kind of do a film score. So they got me on that, on that particular film and Rewitchy Sekimoto and they gave us a lot of help, Rewitchy maybe didn't need as much help as I did. I needed kind of help in the kind of arranging and sort of some of the technical stuff that had to be done. I remember one of the guys who was helping us was Hans Zimmer, who is now like top of the heap on as far as movie scores.

Did you, did you feel like it was too constraining the fact that there was already picture and that it had to be a certain length of time and that there had to be a certain rise here and a certain sting here to coordinate with the actual picture cut and all that stuff? Was that a comfortable thing for you? Did you enjoy the new challenge of that or did you kind of like, that's good. We did one and we're out. Well, you won an Academy Award. Like, what are you going to do?

You might as well walk. I really enjoyed the challenge. Yes, I did. I mean, it's really, it's part of songwriting too, it's this kind of puzzle solving. You know, like, how do I get a chorus to come out of this? What does the chorus say? How do I kind of, then do I, how do I follow that at the end? How do I build, you know, there's all sorts of puzzle solving going on.

So there's that aspect that's really good and I have to say I was really glad that they didn't ask me to do very many stings and kind of, oh, we want you to have a big moment, a big like explosion in the music when the door opens and this guy enters the room. And I thought, you know, I think I'm more about the mood and setting the kind of scene and the mood rather than kind of telling you what to think when the door opens. Sure. Yeah. Right, right.

I want to go back just because I always find it interesting when someone as successful and famous as you and I get to meet them at this time, at this age in their life, where it all comes from, right? So I look at you and I'm like, God, what was Dave Byrne like as a kid? And what made you guys want to go from Scotland or come from Scotland to America? What was the influence there? What was the story there? You know, I didn't find out some of that stuff until I was much older.

There was very little work in Scotland. There's steel yards and the shipbuilding factories, which kind of was the big industry in Glasgow and around there. Basically we're all closing down. And my dad had gone to school and trained as an engineer, but couldn't get work locally. So there was all these American companies that were hiring people who were already trained and bringing them over, in this case it was Westinghouse. And Westinghouse did things like radar and defense systems and this and that and the

other. They didn't just build, make toasters and washing machines. So he got into that and he brought the rest of the family over. And then years later I found out, oh, there might have been another reason. My parents were what was called a mixed marriage, which is different over there than it is over here. Over there it means that one party is Protestant and one party is Catholic, which was the case with my parents.

And their respective families wouldn't talk to one another. There were people who said, I refuse to come to your wedding. Yes. Wow. Our friendship is done. Basically. That's crazy. All that kind of stuff.

And I just thought, it's craziness. It's super craziness, but it still goes on over there. So to stay together they had to leave. They loved one another very much and I think they realized that if they were going to withstand this and stay together, they had to leave. They never said that to me. I had to like dig and dig and dig and say things like, do you think there's any possibility that I'm going to see mom?

Maybe. Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. Brothers and sisters for you? I have a sister. Younger sister. Musically inclined as well or no?

No. No. Not as much. No. She's listening to this. She's like, I am so. Yeah. I haven't heard my songs yet.

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. When you were growing up and so how old were you when you were here in the United States? When I was about eight. And had you already begun music lessons and interested in music and all of that or? No.

There was school music. I think I inherited a violin from a Scottish relative and so at some point, like in elementary school, I started having violin lessons which, uh, you know, it's a tough instrument. It's one of those instruments where unless you really play it well, it really does not sound good. It's not like, it's not, on the piano, you hit, there's the key, you hit the key and that's the note. You've got the note.

The violin, you kind of have to find it and it's like, yeah. Yeah. David, we keep trying to encourage, we keep trying to encourage Sean to do the podcast from his piano because he's, he's quite a good pianist and he's classically trained and he won't do it. We love to hear music from Sean. So next time. Yeah.

Next time. I got it. Next time. Yeah. Give me head up. This is why I think music is so important to keep in schools and for kids to learn or just be around it because I think for me, I, my thing is, uh, you know, my mom came home from work one day and said, this girl, this woman moved in across the street.

She gives piano lessons. Do you want to take piano lessons? I was five years old. I was like, I'm not doing anything else. Sure. So I started taking piano lessons across the street and I found as I stayed with it that it's a, it's just another language, but I had something of my own that a lot of other kids didn't have.

And it gave me this confidence that I could do something that other kids couldn't. And I'm sure I lacked a lot of other things in a lot of other areas, but at least I could, I could hang on. First of all, you said it. You said I'm a pretty cocky kid when your mom said you want piano lessons and you go, yeah, I got nothing else. Sure. Like what kind of a kid?

What an answer is this? No, I was like, I'm not doing anything else. So yes, I'll try it. And so, but I don't know if you felt this way or if you, your kid feels this way or other people in your family that how important music is to have in your life because not only does it do lots of other things to your brain and your life, but also gives you confidence that when you can play an instrument or learn something that, that you can take with you from it.

Yeah. When I was a little bit older, when I was about 12 or somewhere around there, there was rock bands were starting to come out. So it became a thing and I don't know how, but I got a guitar. I taught myself, you know, bought song books of different artists and would do my best to learn some of the songs myself and gradually I could do it. And yes, it becomes, it becomes a real kind of brain exercise, besides being this emotional outlet that you have, even if you're just doing it in your bedroom.

It's this real emotional outlet, but it's also kind of a real kind of brain exercise and you learn how to organize things and how things get put together. Yeah. Well, to that, you know, when I listened, I was just thinking about like, you have so many, you know, I mentioned your lyrics from once in a lifetime, but, you know, it's musically there are so many pieces of your music that are, that are again, also so iconic. And I was thinking about like the opening for burning down the house, which starts with that.

What is that process like for you when you're arranging a piece like that or coming up with it? I can't ever, for me, it just seems like something that exists on another planet. I wouldn't know how to get inspired to begin to write a piece like, did you remember the moment where you're like, Oh, this, I think this would be a good intro to the song. Like were you on the subway? And you're like, Hey, I don't remember that one. But I remember there's a song Road to Nowhere that has this kind of little acapella choir

in the beginning, yeah, as the kind of introduction and, and, you know, where you go exactly. And so we had kind of this more or less the shape of the song. And I thought, we need an introduction. And also the song is not quite long enough. Yeah, I love that it needs just a little bit 30 more seconds or whatever. You know, David, there are so many, like what Will was mentioning, there's so many great examples of really bold, exciting, inspiring elements to your music. And you know, when Sean was talking about, well, how did it all start when you just talk

about you, there was a guitar and there was a violin, you basically learn. So there's a process of actually learning how to execute an instrument, right? And then there's also the other required element of creativity and taste that you have to marry with your ability to execute. So where did that, where does that taste come from? Where do, where do, where do those thoughts of those bold beginnings to songs and whatnot? What's the, well, let me say it another way, I apologize for the length of this, but today, as you, as you sit here at this age, what do you find is your is the most influential

part in how your taste adjusts today? Is it listening to other artists? Is it, is it, is it reading about certain things, listening to, to do sounds around the world? And remember, Paul Simon went through that really exciting African music inspiration. How do you, how does your taste continue to evolve and stay so inspiring for all of us? Wow. Thank you.

Like, I think a lot of songwriters, I will jot down, if a phrase comes to mind, if I say something and I go, oh, that's a good lyric, I'll write, I'll write that down, or I might record it onto my phone. Right. But musically, how do you know what sounds? That is a little harder. Yeah, it's true. I listened to a lot of music.

I was doing that this morning. I was just sitting here for like half an hour browsing through kind of tracks. I was checking out, there was some Japanese artist who does really, really insane stuff. But is like, they make, she makes pop hits out of them. But you'll deliberately expose yourself to stuff that is left or right of what you're currently accustomed to. Oh yeah, because, I mean, you're not going to bring anything new to the conversation if you just go, oh yeah, I want to sound like so-and-so because they just had a huge hit.

Well, they already had that huge hit. You're doing that all over again is like, you know, a movie sequel or something like that. Yeah, I guess the question is like, is it, it must be exciting or part of your process to take huge artistic sort of swings, if you will, like do stuff that you're not necessarily totally comfortable with? You don't know where it's going to end up. Exactly.

But you have to hold on to a certain element of familiarity and comfort, not only for you and your abilities, but also for your audience as well. You do want to somewhat incorporate a bit of where you got to play the hits. But you also want to take another step forward in what your next album would sound like. But there still needs to be some thread of continuity to whatever your sound or brand or what you assume you're- Exactly. It's a real dilemma for musical artists.

I mean, it's fine. I enjoy playing a lot of the older stuff. I don't play all of it, but I enjoy playing some of it. But it is, yes, a balance, playing stuff that the audience, some of the audience anyway, has come to hear. They go, give us some stuff that we know and then we'll listen to the newer stuff too. And now with the Broadway show, I see that there are people in the audience who don't know almost anything.

It's like there's sometimes some kids in there and I can look at them and they're watching and paying close attention, but I'll start playing some really well-known song and there'll just be a blank look like, I don't know this song. I don't know why that person behind me is getting so excited, but I don't know it. But that's pretty good. That's pretty good. Yeah. There's a theatricality to, if that's the right word, I apologize if that's not even a word.

Your presence on stage, there seems to be a part of you that really enjoys some of the character or theatrics of your performance. Where does that come from? Are you a fan of certain actors or comedians or dancers or where does that part of it come from? Because it's such a, for me, I enjoy that part of your whole artistic contribution. I noticed a little while back, I noticed sometimes people laugh at things that I say. There we go.

So you did it again. Sometimes they do. And sometimes they go, I didn't even know that was funny. And then I'm trying to figure out, why is it funny? How can I say something else that's funny and how do I know? It's just, there's this sort of this unassuming presence that you have. It's almost like, I don't know, there's, you know, sometimes you see somebody up front stage in the spotlight, they got the lead microphone, and there's almost this sense

of entitlement or, or, or I'm a big rock star, everybody. Yeah. You're lucky to be here listening to me do, you've never had that in a great way. You are one of us. There's almost an unassuming, you're almost surprised to be up there, it seems like. I know you're not, but you never feel like, as an audience member, that you're asking us to kind of appreciate being in your presence. There's a shared experience there, which I'm sure you're not, you're not aware of it.

It's just an, I guess there's no, there's no question here. There's more of a compliment that you make, you make it very easy to enjoy your music because I don't, I don't have to pretend to buy what you're selling. You know? Well, thank you. Yeah. I feel like it's my duty to be kind of honest and real to the audience. Yeah.

Yeah. A lot of the things I say are written or scripted, but there's other things that are improvised. But even the things that are scripted, I feel like it's my duty to kind of say those things in a really honest and kind of direct way. But yet you do, but yet you do it in this way. Like Jason's right. There is a sort of a theatrical element to, again, stop making sense. Even I remember the record that the cover to me has always stayed with me of you in this

big suit and it's such that image. And then you're on there doing, and if you watch the film, it's so great. Like even when you're just on by yourself doing Psycho Killer and singing French lyrics. What's the lyric? I mean, there's a big part of it. Like what does it say? Yeah. Yeah.

And then you go, ce que je fais ce soir-là, right? And I'm like, this guy's singing in French and people don't, you know, ce qu'elle a dit ce soir-là, réelles en mon espoir, right? That whole thing. And I'm like, and as a Canadian kid, I'm like, this is rad. He's singing in French, but it's so theatrical. Nobody else is doing, you know, at that time, Joe Strummer wasn't, I mean, you know what, he wasn't singing in French.

Yeah. But I just thought, oh, this is what this character would do. This character would have like kind of fancy pretensions about himself. Yeah. Yeah. And yet, and that's right. And yet, so you're playing this character who has these pretensions, but we're all with you on this journey.

We get that you're not, it's not like you've created yourself up here. You're investigating this character and you're letting us be a part of it. It's such a, there's like a relationship that you have with your audience. Do you feel that? Like even when you're in your songwriting, do you feel a relationship with not just the music, but the people who listen to it? To a large extent, yes. Although there's always surprises, because there's one part in the show where I talk

about my failure to know how to write a song in a certain way. And I'd say something like, unfortunately, I am what I am. And the audience finds that really funny. And I feel like they're laughing at my failure. Why is that? And I can't figure it out. I bet you that's more of a laugh of relief that, oh, he's as insecure as we are. Maybe that too.

Maybe that too. We all are that. And it's just to see a hero of yours say something as vulnerable and as transparent as that, I would laugh with relief and warmth. OK. OK. If audiences laughed at my failure, they'd never stop laughing. That's true.

I know. There's a nice lyric for you to write down, Dave. We'll be right back. All right. Back to the show. Back to what Jason was saying before, nerves when you play, excited when you to go out there still. Are there times when you don't want to go out there and how do you solve that?

And are there any rituals before you go out? So it's a four-part question. I hope you're writing that down, David. But how amazing. Sean asks a four-part question in about a tenth of the time of Jason asking a barely a question. Yeah. Well, my brain's broken.

Yeah. That's true. I'll go backwards. Part four. Thank you. The rituals. I often, I make a ginger turmeric tea. Oh, nice.

So there's this little ritual of like peeling the ginger and slicing it up, boiling the water, all that kind of stuff, which is just kind of like really just a little ritual that you do in the dressing room. You stops you from thinking about, oh, how's it going to be? How am I going to do tonight? How's my throat? Yeah, you don't think about that. Lately I've taken to like, oh, why should I shave this morning?

I'll shave when I get to the dressing room. And so I do that. And that's another little thing, you know, heat up some water and that's the way I shave. And yeah. What about nerves? Are nerves something that fuels you or is it a negative? Or do they exist? I've never had stage fright, but I do kind of stay within myself for like half an hour

or so before going on stage. Just to sort of center, just to kind of center yourself? Yeah, just to kind of center myself and not be thinking about other stuff, not be thinking about, oh, you know, what am I supposed to be doing tomorrow? Or why is that? Why that person write that email to me? What do they mean by that? You know, not forget about all that stuff.

You ever forget the words? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah. And what do you do? What do you do? Make up new ones. Yeah, I make up new ones real quick.

You know, sometimes they don't rhyme or sometimes it's just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then I go, oh geez, that's a completely, complete brain fart there. You could probably point the microphone at the audience. I'll sing it for you. Well, I was just going to say, so I was a Christmas elf on the Kenny Rogers tour. That's exactly right. Oh, wait. Tell us.

Hold for applause or hold for laughter? Which one? Or both. Both. You could do both. Okay. And he would sometimes forget the lyrics and Jason just nailed it. He would, one of his classic songs, you know, you got to know when to fold.

And if you just forgot, he would just point the mic to the audience. And they got it. And yeah. Always, always, almost every other show. Remember, Sean, didn't you say Kenny's one of the most profound things he ever said to you was, get the fuck off the stage? Yes, I like that. Didn't he say that to you?

Yes, I like that. And who are you? How'd you get on this tour bus? David, how do you like the part of your job of managing the family? The sort of administration of being a leader, being the band leader, being the leader in your business life as well. And you strike me as somebody who doesn't shy away from being the leader, but doesn't revel in it and is not dictatorial and is not the tyrant you call yourself when you

were younger. So how do you, how do you manage to do that in a way that it seems like you would prefer to do it today, which is a bit softer and counts a bit more on other people kind of self-policing? Yeah. I've learned that you've got these talented collaborators, whether it's the, you know, the lighting people, the choreographer, the band. If you give them the right kind of guidance and kind of communicate to them what it is

you're trying to do, they'll also often come up with an incredible way of achieving that. And you don't have to like hold their hand all the way. So it's, and then they feel empowered. They feel like they did this. It wasn't just like, he told me to do it. They did it. You just kind of point them in the right direction, but don't tell them how to get there. Yeah.

Yeah, it works. I find that works really well. I have, I don't like to do it too many hours, but I feel like a musical artist like myself need to know the business end of it to some extent, otherwise, as it has been said, if you don't take care of your business, you won't have any business, and a lot of artists feel like, oh no, I'm an artist. I don't have to think about that such things. Well, yeah, pretty, pretty soon you'll find out why you have to think about such things.

Right. And as that, as that part of the business, not to get into boring weeds about the business side of music, but there was a huge transition that it went through, what, 10, 20 years ago into digital distribution that the film industry is starting to go through now. And I'm wondering, has that settled now in the music industry? Has it sort of found its footing? And if so, is that something that is a good place that it has found itself in? Oh, man.

It's a big topic. There's still a lot of artists who are not entirely happy with the kind of income they get from streaming services. It certainly works for some real artists, and for others, it doesn't work so well. There's other kind of models that are being proposed. I don't know if they're gonna be better or not, but people are still talking about rethinking that kind of model. I may propose to a model soon.

Okay. That's a different model. Yes, propose to a model. Sorry. That's a different... David, what's your work-life balance? What's the kind of the perfect, for you, the perfect work-life balance? How much do you...

Are you a... You wake up in the morning and you've got it, you want to write music or make music or engage, or do you like to have, like, hey, I need 10 days where I don't even think about my music? But what is, for you, the ideal balance? I know that if I'm going to work on music, I need a good few hours clear of, like, no phone calls, no zooms, no emails that I need to deal with, and that kind of thing. And then I can get something done.

I can't do eight hours of writing music out of stretch. Eventually it's like you run out of ideas and you go, okay, I can't push it any further. But you do need that real clear time, and then, probably like a lot of us, there's an awful lot of time responding to emails and things like that. Yeah. But do you like to have big stretches of time where you're not doing that, or do you need to do that kind of every day, like, engage sort of creatively? Oh, no, this time, you know, I'd love to say on the weekends or whenever I can, like, just

go hang out with friends and go to museums or go see somebody else's show or all that kind of stuff. What's the most lowbrow thing you do regularly? Is it a bad TV show? Is it, do you like to go bowling? Do you like to, you know, walk along a bridge and throw rocks at cars? I mean, what do you do that is about the dumbest thing? Is that a burn up there?

Yes. What? He's throwing rocks at us. Yeah, again. Wait, he's going to throw a shopping cart down. Yeah. Those of us who are amazed by your creativity and your sophistication, what would we be surprised to learn that you do that's pretty knuckle-draggy?

There's probably some kind of escapist TV or streaming services or movies or things like that. Let's hear it. We need a title. You need a title. I haven't watched them all, but I've probably watched quite a few of the superhero movies. Really? Sure.

And, you know, Marvel movies or DC ones or whatever they are, I've watched a lot of those. Is that true? I love that. Yeah, and I just feel like, you know, especially during the pandemic, there'd be times when you finish whatever work you're trying to do, doing the worst of it, and you just go, I can't be watching anything serious now. I don't want, I mean, what we're going through at the moment, you know, we're kind of through

the worst of it, we hope, you go, I don't want something to emotionally get me worked up. Right. Yeah. So no Bachelorette. Yeah, no Bachelorette. That's too emotional. Yo, that's too emotionally evolving.

Yeah. Yeah, I get it. What about writing music for one of those Marvel movies? Yeah. Oh, I think that's a skill. No, I don't think that's my skill. That's the kind of thing where the music has to like hit all these action. That's true.

Wait a second. This is not the David Byrne I barely know, which is a guy who takes a lot of chances. Yeah. Oh, man, I'd love to see you score something like that. You should try it. That would be pretty cool. I know. Hey, I read a while ago that you did some TED talk about how architecture and music are

combined. What is that about? Oh, okay. That's pretty straightforward. So when the conclusion is kind of sometimes surprising, the straightforward part is that certain kinds of music sound good in certain places, like Gregorian chants and kind of church music, medieval church music sounds really good in the cathedrals that were built during that time.

All that echo and reverb, it sounds like, whoa, yeah. But then if you brought like, say, a funk band into a cathedral, it just sounds like a mess. Acoustically, it just sounds like a mess and you realize, oh no, this stuff belongs in a different kind of box, kind of small club. That's where it sounds good. And this stuff belongs in here. You realize that a lot of orchestral music is somewhere in between.

It fits into a kind of medium-sized concert hall and it sounds really good there. It has a little bit of echo, but not too much. And so you realize that the kind of conclusion was that once these halls and venues are built, people start creating the music that they know is going to sound good in those places. I mean, if you're like, if I know I'm performing in little clubs, I'm not going to write some kind of Gregorian chant music to play at CBGBs. It's just like, nobody's going to hear it. It's just going to get drowned out with all the yelling and the beer and everything else.

So you go, no, no, it kind of shapes what people create, but they unconsciously create what is going to sound good in that place. For that, for that. It's like Ozark, you guys built it for me to watch on my phone, right? That's the perfect way. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It would say, shot that. To look good on your phone.

No, on my phone, while I'm on the bus. While you're on the bus. So you don't have to hold it too steady. Yeah. Yeah. David, is there an instrument that you wish you were better at that you admire when you have one of these musicians come in and they're like, let's say drums, for instance, you just get like some just beast on the drum set and you just wish that you were better at that

because you admire somebody who knows how to play that instrument really, really well. Is there one that's super tricky that you never really got your hands around aside from violin? I never really learned to play keyboard. Really? You know, can trigger sounds and hit a chord and do that kind of thing, but can never can't really write on a keyboard and I wish I could. I wish I just had those piano lessons like you had.

Sean's available. If we could shoot, Sean, would you mind if we shot you giving David a keyboard lesson real quick at some point in the future? I would love. I think America would love to see that. I think that's what they've been waiting for. Yeah. Yeah.

Then what about where do you stand on producing other artists? Is that something that's interesting to you to sort of help somebody shape whatever their wild horse creativity might be at a young age, like you had to sort of give them an idea about what the future might hold if they pointed this direction and helped them sort of get a career under their feet? Is that something that's interesting to you or are you still really enjoying pushing yourself? I tried it a couple of times and with varying levels of success and eventually I thought, no, there's people who are really good at that.

And part of the being good at it is being a couple of things like being a real psychologist or psychiatrist or whatever. So you know how to guide people in a nice way to kind of getting the best out of them. And the other side is kind of being a salesman where you're kind of going, oh, no, you should do this, do this. This is going to be great. It's amazing. It's amazing.

You've collaborated so much in your whole career feels like a collaboration. And you've got a collaborative spirit about you. You can kind of sense it and feel it and even like your records with talking heads. Certainly as a solo artist you've worked with a lot of different people and musicians, producers and Brian Eno. I know that you and St. Vincent, Annie Clark made a record, what was that, almost 10 years ago, right? I loved St. Vincent.

Yeah, a few years ago there. Yeah. I mean, what is, is that something you kind of look to do all the time? You get inspired by the musicians and you're like, oh, I want to, I got to get with them. Like I like what they do and are there people out there that you're still like, all right, I'm thinking about this person, I really need to work with them. Those people whose work I really love and I kind of wonder how do they do that? What's their process?

And sometimes it just happens by accident. Somebody says, hey, I got a song. You want to, what do you think? You want to write something for this song? Yeah. Is that how it happened with you and Annie on your record? Yeah, we'd seen, we'd seen this kind of little tiny performance in a bookstore that was a collaboration between Bjork and this group, Dirty Projectors.

Oh yeah. And it was kind of amazing. I mean, the... Great band. Yeah, the guy from Dirty Projectors, Dave Longstreet, he wrote all new songs for this just little show in a book, in a bookstore and I thought, holy shit, he has raised the bar. So...

So high. So the bookstore approached Annie and I and said, hey, will you do this too? And I thought, you mean we got to write all new songs for this now? Which we did. And we never managed to get it into the bookstore, but they kicked it off. Yeah. Wow. Wow.

That's so amazing. Now, what's the rest of your day look like today? Is today a day when you're going to go see a Marvel movie or are you going to think of the next great album or Broadway show? Neither. I think I have a couple of Zoom meetings today and I have a trainer person that I see once a week. What are we doing?

What are we doing to stay still so beautifully fit? You've always been fit. You look great. You ride your bike a lot. I know that. My bicycle is how I get around town when we're not having tornadoes. Yeah. Same.

Same. I'm a big New York... I use my bike in New York to get around everywhere too. So that keeps you in shape? Or what are you doing with the trainer? Are you like a cross training thing? Yeah. She's got me stretching and doing things for balance and balancing on one leg and doing

all different kinds of things, all of which is really useful for the show. And I can say things to her like, hey, there's a thing in the show where I try to bend over backwards. Can you help me get further backwards? That's cool. I feel like we're all approaching the age where we need to work on our flexibility and do yoga or Pilates or whatever the hell that is. I like the idea of walking by like a storefront gym, like a small gym and just being like,

is that David Byrne with a trainer trying to... Is he bending over backwards? What's he doing? Is David Byrne teaching a step class? Yeah. And how do I get in on that? David, David, you've given us... You've been so generous with your time.

I was such an immense fan and such incredible respect for you as an artist and what you do. And I just can't thank you enough for joining us today. Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah. This has been a real treat. Thank you for joining us.

What a thrill. Thank you. I hope it all worked out. Yeah. Oh, it certainly did. Yeah. It was a big success with American Utopia, your show on Broadway, and we're just... We're all such fans.

So thanks again. Can't wait to see it. Thank you. See you in person sometime soon. I hope so. I hope so. That would be great. Thank you so much.

Thanks, David. Bye, buddy. Bye, Kyle. Bye. Oh my God. Can you believe David Byrne was just on the show? Yeah. Will, how do you do it?

How do you do it? How did you? Did you know him? Well, I guess, you know, he's a huge fit. No, he has no idea. I still don't get it. And then they showed him... They showed him footage.

I still don't get it. And then they showed him... Yeah, they showed him my reel and he was like, now I really don't get it. Yeah. How can we get out of this? I thought it was somebody else. Yeah. I've just always been such a huge fan of his and when I heard that he was going to do

it, I was just absolutely blown away. Yeah. He's prolific. Covered so many areas. And I'm always so fascinated when rock stars or whatever you want to call them, they venture over into like the stage area and the film area, they branch out to all like Trent Reznor is like that too. Right?

Yeah. And there's very few of them that actually do it and are successful at it. And he's one of them. Well, it's one of those things, you know, it's sometimes, you hate using the term, sometimes using the term artist makes you want to roll your eyes out of your head and you're like, oh, God, oh, are you an artist? Oh, thank you. And you'll hear like people like Sean going, I'm an artist.

And you're like, oh, shut the fuck up. It was a storyteller too though. Yeah. I'm a storyteller. I'm a real storyteller. Because my dad told me, what are you doing? You're a storyteller. You need to get back out there.

You know what? And if you don't leave and, but my dad said, if you don't leave and go tell stories, I will. And he didn't even let you answer. He just put it in drive. No, but David Byrne is one of those people you can legitimately say like, oh, this, this is an artist. Like this guy is.

Yeah. Have you ever seen that choir, choir, choir of those guys who are actually Canadian and they go around and they get people, oh, Sean, you would love these. I would love it. Send them a sentence. It's so good. And he did one, I think at the public, David did with a couple of years ago with those guys and he's saying hero, David Bowie's heroes with the, and everybody in the audience

is sort of, they've given them the music and they just, in the moment, they all sing with him. That's cool. And they harmonize and stuff. Unbelievable. So, you know, the notes of the piano, you know, this A, B, C, D, E, F, G and that's it. But if they, if you said it will in an Australian accent, what would it be? I, B, C, D, A, F, J.

No, no, but if you know, it depends on, sorry, I hear what Sean you're saying, but like it would be one thing if you said it in Sydney and another if you said it in Byron Bay. Byron Bay, Byron Bay. Byron Bay. Smart. What? Smart. What?

Smart. What? Smart. What? Smart. What? Smart. What?

What? What? What? What? Well, which one? The one I asked for. Maybe the cute ones where I asked for. And the cute ones I asked for.

Thanks. Rob Armj�� Vennet Barri-Co and Michael Grand Terry. Smart. What?