SmartLess - "James Burrows"

Episode Date: July 18, 2022

James a.k.a. “Jimmy” Burrows (co-creator of Cheers and prolific television director of shows such as Taxi, Frasier, Friends, Will & Grace, the list goes on and on…) surprises us this week to share endless stories from his early career through numerous hit TV shows. So drop some ice in the White Zin and settle-in for another crisp new episode of SmartLess.Listen ad free with Wondery+. Join Wondery+ for exclusives, binges, early access, and ad free listening. Available in the Wondery App: https://wondery.app.link/smartless.Please support us by supporting our sponsors!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hello, listener. I'm glad you found us. My name is Jason. Hey, listen. I'm joined by, hello. This is where you announce yourself. Sean Hayes. Sean, be more assertive about it. Make them, get them excited to meet you. I'm Sean Hayes. Will, tell them who you are. My name is Will Arnett, and I'm originally from Toronto, and we're doing a podcast, and we're having a lot of fun with my friends. So, come on and join us with your ears. Oh, God. Welcome to Smart Less. Smart Less.

Smart Less. Smart Less. Hey, you know how I always like to start out with a little story. Oh, sorry. Did you prepare today? You must have been too fast. I didn't, I didn't really prepare. I just... He's got chatter. No, well, first of all, I missed last night. Did I miss anything major? We missed you. That's sweet. Listener, usually the three of us get together on Sunday nights over at a friend's house,

and Sean has family in town this weekend, so he did not join us when you were missed. That is correct. So, yeah, they left this morning. That was sad to see them go, but yeah, that's why I couldn't go last. That was just too many people. It was too chaotic, and it was, nobody just wanted to like chill out here, so nobody wanted to get up and... How did that chill out go? Yeah, it was a nice... Was it a good chill out? Good. Well, I tried to get...

I introduced two of my nieces to one of my favorite movies, Tootsie, and they wanted nothing to do with it. Really? Yeah. You know what? It's really depressing. It's such a good show. I showed some stuff to Franny, my 15-year-old, and she just... It's just not... Nothing's any good. I know, because it's got to be like louder, faster, funnier.

I tried to... I tried Fletch last year, and they were kind of like, yeah. And I was like, oh, really? This is in all time. Yeah, I know. No, I get it. Like, try Stripes or something like that, or meatballs, and it's just... It's just doesn't work anymore. I don't know why. It's still funny. Well, I mean, Sean, you had his attention at meatballs.

Always. By the way, you think... Will, for the second day in a row, I'm not kidding. I had leftover spaghetti and another tuna fish sandwich. It's always in a row. When are you going to turn into 375? I'm on my way. But wait, I did want to say this. So, as you know, you saw, I got this new electric car, right?

Yeah. And it's an Audi. It's really great. You barely press on the... You know, it's not gas. It's an accelerator. Yeah, the accelerator. You just fucking go like a roller coaster. But so, we have this, as you know, this tiny gate in front of our house that I'm looking at right now.

And it's kind of unnecessary. By the way, I've been meaning to say this for a few years. I'm not kidding. Your gate is so unnecessary. It's like knee height, right? So dumb. It only goes up to the knees. 375. Your gate is the dumbest.

It is dumb. It is so dumb. But you could hop over it, but whatever, you guys know that. A doxon could hop over it. Exactly. It's true. A little hot dog dog. So, wait. So, the gate... So, when you pull up to it, the gate opens automatically. Stop calling it a gate.

Okay. The door, the trap opens up. And it stays open for like a minute or so, right? Okay. So, for some reason, Scotty, I think for security reasons, I don't know. He recalibrated it to only open for 10 seconds. This is true. And so, I don't know for security or whatever.

So, I'm pulling out of my driveway yesterday and the gate opens. And just as I'm about to leave, I forgot my phone. So, I stopped the car. I jump out and I'm heading back in the house. I hear... It completely scraped the entire side of my car. Of the new car? Of the brand new car.

No. Fucking Scotty. Yeah, I know. That's it. That was the last one. By the way, I just... I don't want to blame Scotty for this. This is what he's spending his time doing. Recalibrating the knee-high gate?

Well, listen. You get one too many hot dogs in there and... You did. You guys got one stuck over route by doxons, right? Didn't you have an attack of doxons? A pack of them surrounded the house. It's just a corgi. It's the caravan of corgis.

Oh, Sean, that's a bummer. I know, but... And then... Are you going to fix it or are you going to just drive around with it? Yeah, he changed it back. He was like... Because it happened... No, the car.

No, no, no. We're going to change the gate to stay open for a little bit. But that was like a couple of days ago and then the next day, I literally was pulling out and some guy was standing on the sidewalk and I couldn't move fast enough. And I was like freaking out. I was like, oh my God, I have like three seconds. So I gunned it backwards.

And then I was like, Scott, he's like, what's the problem? I'm like, it can't fucking... It's got to fucking stay open longer than... So he put it back. Why don't you... You don't have like an eye on there that can sense... Yes, but it's on the other side. It's on the other side.

It's on the... What is happening at your house, Sean? This thing... This is a disaster. By the way, nobody's going to be more upset about the dented car than the valet guys at Koi. They're going to be so... We went there last night.

Of course. Did you really? Of course. My sister loves it. Tracy loves it. Sean, what happened? I know. And then I was like, you guys, I didn't...

I left it totally normal and you guys banged it up. All right. So let's get to our guest. This man, guys, I'm so excited. He's an icon. He really is an icon. He's responsible for many, many of the laughs you've experienced throughout your life.

Jerry Lewis. That's right. He's actually... I've been looking to blame somebody for my laugh. So I'm glad. He's actually from Los Angeles, which I keep forgetting, but he really kind of grew up in New York.

One of his earliest jobs was an assistant stage manager for a play adaptation of the novella Breakfast at Tiffany's. Let's just say that production didn't rocket him into success immediately, but it did, however, introduce him to Mary Tyler Moore, which would prove to be very valuable later. He continued as a stage manager and then went on directing plays.

This is Jimmy Burroughs. And then years later... This is Jimmy Burroughs. He created this little thing called Cheers. Anyway, he's a legend. Everyone knows his name. He referred to him as my television father. He's directed every episode.

No, he's mine. You can't have him. He's mine. It's not other than my dad, who didn't leave me, James Bond. Oh, listener, you're in for a treat. Well, there he is. Jimmy!

Oh, look at Jimmy. Oh, my God. Was that... He just put tape on his nose. I can't believe three of my actors. Yeah. Well, I'm sorry. Actors in quotes.

That's exactly right. What's our... What's my nickname is? Batehound. And Sean's nickname is... B-story. B. Shawnee.

Or Shawnee. Or Shawnee. Shawnee. Shawnee. And what does Will have one? Willie. Willie. Sweet, sweet Willie.

What was yours, Jason? What is yours, Jason? Batehound. I don't know where it came from, but I love it. I don't know either. There's only two people who have hound. You and Courtney Cox. She's Corthound.

Corthound. Is she really? That's hysterical. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to mention it at the end too, but I wanted to enter. But I wanted to mention it now as well. Spit it out, honey.

I know. Sorry, I'm nervous. Oh, my God. Come through the door. It's like... Come through the door. I'm so nervous. I'm so excited.

You have this new gigantic book that's out now that's called Directed by James Perot's five decades of stories from the legendary director of Taxi, Cheers, Frasier, Friends, Will and Grace, and tons more... Chicago Sons. Chicago Sons. Is Chicago Sons in there too? Yeah.

Chicago Sons is mentioned. Yes. What's Chicago Sons? Chicago Sons is this little sprint I did with D.D.P. Yomafit and David Krumholz. Paula Marshall, who was your love interest. Paula Marshall, the greatest. Wow.

I remember that show. Yeah. It was on for half a season on NBC, right? Yeah. We played three brothers that lived right behind Wrigley Field. Yes. And we had a beautiful translate on that, didn't we? Yes.

Absolutely. So, go ahead, Sean. You're going to tell the listener how lucky they are to be listening. This is so incredible. Right. Right. That is exactly what I was going to do. So, you know, I know so many things about you.

We all have known you, worked with you, loved you for a very long time. We've spent much time over the years socially and professionally. I consider you family. But what I'm excited about today is I get to ask you questions that if I was at your house, you're asking them. You'd probably tell me to shut the hell up. Now I get to corner you. So, we all know so many things about you.

You've never been at my house. Yeah. You haven't been at the nice one. I never make it past that gate. That's an actual gate. No, I know so many things about you. But my sister Tracy doesn't, which means other people may not know. But all the shows that you've sprinkled your kind of magic dust on

and made hits by directing them. I mentioned them some of them already. I tell you, more taxi chairs, Will and Grace worth mentioning again. The Hogan family, Frazier, Two and a Half Men, The Big Bang, Therian, on and on. And Sidebar, you own a lot of that part of those shows. So, I want to start out with the fact that it blows people's minds when I reveal to them not only all you've accomplished in your life, but I also love seeing them light up when I mentioned your father was a boroughs

who amongst many other great things wrote Guys and Dolls, won the Pulitzer Prize for how to succeed in business without really trying. Both massive, gigantic, massive hits on Broadway. Your father was so deeply rooted in show business from radio to theater to television. What was that like for you? Was it kid to be surrounded by all that? Like, was it thrilling for you? Or was it kind of like just what dad did?

So, you felt you needed to do it or did you want to do it? Wow, Sean, this is the first time you've learned a monologue and said it perfectly. Without cards. I had a stopper. I had a time stopper. All the hand gestures were there. Don't worry about it. He was my father, so this was my father's business. He would write on a yellow legal pad when he wrote and he would go put on a suit and a tie to direct.

And a trilby hat. He had a hat on and he would go down and he would trundle my sister and I occasionally down there and we would kind of, you know, sit in the back. I didn't had no idea what was going on. Not a clue. How old were you like when you first were like, wow, this is... When I first went, I saw Guys and Dolls when I was 11. That was 1951.

So, I remember seeing that. That was the first show I had seen that my father did. I had seen before my mom took me to, see, where's Charlie. I mean, I know you guys were not born yet. When these were up on Broadway and I'm not sure you're all born still. I'm still cooking. Yeah, I know. So, I had no, I had no desire to go into show business

because my dad was a legend in New York City. That's why. And there was just no way I was going to be in the theater at all. It was just too daunting. And then what happened? Yeah, what did you think you were going to do? Well, I was a government major at Oberlin College. Really?

Yeah. My thesis was on gerrymandering. Really? How about that? Yeah. We could use you now. I know. No, we figured it all out now.

Yeah. It's all fixed. Yeah, we got it done. Wow. And then when I graduated Oberlin, it was the Vietnam War time. So, I applied to the Yale School of Drama to kind of defer, because we all had to take physicals. You could defer your physical.

At 21, I went to the Yale School of Drama for three years. To be an actor? No, no. I was a playwright, believe it or not. Wow. Wow. You know, me who would sacrifice any character for a joke. Yeah.

But, Jimmy, I don't think my character would shut up. It's funny. Yeah. Yeah. Go faster. Yeah. Exactly. Then I had a class in directing with a professor named Nico Sacropolis,

who founded the Williamstown Theater. And he kind of showed me what directing was. I had no idea, because I watched my father and I had just no idea. And after I got out of Yale School of Drama, I did have to go take a physical, which I failed, which was lucky enough for the U.S. Army. And then... What was wrong with you?

I was too funny. You're going to distract the troops. Get them out of here. Yeah, I was going to make them laugh instead of make them shoot, I think. And then so I started working in the business. I started driving a truck on a summer tour, a summer stock tour that went to the different music tents. I would load the scenery at the end of the performance on Saturday night

and drive it so they could open the show in a new venue on Monday night. And then I stage-managed for a bit and then directed in summer stock. And then I had one point, wrote a letter to Mary Tyler Moore. Yeah, what was your first TV directing gig? The Mary Tyler Moore Show in 1974. And how many seasons were they into that by then? That was the fourth season. So when they taught you...

You wrote a letter... Let's back up to Jason's line. Okay. Directing the podcast. When you're at Yale and you took the directing class, when you didn't know what directing was, what did they teach you that directing was? What did you come out of there with like the basic of like,

oh, that's what they do for Tracy? You know, I had no idea what a director did, literally. You know, my mind was elsewhere when I was watching my dad. He wrote and directed at the same time. So, you know, he would chatter and everything like that. But then I kind of got it because I was in a couple of productions at Yale as a supernumerary in the background. And there was, you know, crafting how it looked and everything like that.

But what would you say if Tracy, Sean's sister, said, well, what does a director do? What do you do to help, you know, it all happen? Well, I'd like to think of myself as a guy in a lifeboat with a group of people with me. And I'm kind of the captain of the lifeboat. And it's my job to get a performance in that lifeboat of the show with the emotions of the characters plus the laughs.

And, you know, letting people realize that I will protect them in the lifeboat. The way I am, as you guys know, is I'm not a Martinette. I'm kind of a nice, sweet guy who happens to be funny. And I like to have all the actors behave that way and all the actors react that way and be in this lifeboat together with me. And because we're all in this boat, we're all rowing.

And so I kind of got that from watching Nico. So he was much more concerned with how it looked and where extra supernumeraries had to be and everything like that. But when he worked with the actors, I kind of saw the light. Well, it's interesting too, because how old were you when you were stage manager on Broadway? 26.

Wow. So at that point, you've been around like nutty actors and actresses your entire life. You must have honed your skills pretty early and how to communicate with them and know what their needs are and knowing how to quiet down the crazy or whatever, right? I guess so. I was a stage manager on Breakfast at Tiffany's,

which you mentioned, which had Mary Tyler Moore, Richard Chamberlain, and Sally Kellerman, who were three actors from California that were doing their first Broadway show. Wow, that's crazy. And I was in charge of them. In other words, I had to make sure that they knew what side of the stage to enter during a performance,

where to come off. I made sure they had lunch. I made sure they had dinner. I made sure they were on time. I was literally their shepherd. And so again, I wasn't involved emotionally in how the show was shaped or anything like that. I was just responsible for those three people

and making their life easier. And I'm a kind of nice guy. So they liked me and I liked them. And luckily enough, as I said, one of the stars was Mary Tyler Moore, and that just led to my career. Wow. So when you go into directing multi-camera television,

which for the listener, that's the stuff in front of a live audience and you hear the laughter and all that stuff. So it is basically, you could be described as filmed theater. Did you approach it as that, like your love for theater? Did you just kind of start directing these things as just, well, we're just going to film this stage production since it's all kind of proscenium.

Or did you incorporate the camera into it all and created something different? It was all about filming a play. I spent five months learning the cameras. I sat in stands and watched my mentor, Jay Sandrich, and Alan Raffkin, and Peter Bonners was directing then. And I watched Michael Zinberg. Peter Bonners was directing before you?

Oh, yeah. He was directed on the Newhart show. Wow. And wasn't it true, Jimmy, that they used to do all, you have three cameras, and you were one of the first, if not the first, to add a fourth camera? Yeah. We, Mary and Newhart, they used three cameras,

and Rhoda and Paul Sand, they all had three cameras, except if the show had an order amount of people and then they brought a fourth camera in. But Taxi was really the first show to have four cameras permanently because they were all rolling film. Four cameras rolling film simultaneously gets expensive. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you use one shot from one camera at any one moment.

And then when digital cards came out, it became a lot easier to go back and reshoot and everything like that. But you didn't have monitors back then either for a long time. No. When did the monitor first come in that you could actually see what you were shooting?

Before cameras were shooting. That wasn't till like the late 80s, early 90s. No, even on tape shows. When I did the Betty White show, believe it or not, this is when she was an actress with John Hillerman, and she, Charlie Seifer, who played her stunt double, there was a series created at MTM. And they had video cameras, so I had four video monitors.

Okay. But I didn't have film until like the sixth or seventh year of Cheers. There were no film. They hadn't figured out how to put a monitor in a film camera. So you're standing on the floor watching all the cameras in it. And again, like Jason says, just for Tracy, most comedy, TV comedies, or what we call a single camera, which look more like a movie.

And you know, like The Office or whatever, all these kinds of shows. You break the fourth wall. Yeah. But the shows that we're talking about that have these multi-cams are all the great classic shows, like Cheers and Seinfeld and Friends. And the camera never gets up into the set. Right.

And of course, every time you mention any of these shows, most of them are Jimmy directed, at least the whole series or the pilot. It's freaking crazy. And so you're down there on the floor, my recollection, even once you had monitors, I mean, Jimmy, on tape nights, you're never standing in front of the monitor.

You're standing on the floor next to the cameras, walking back and forth between the cameras, kicking cameras in one direction. Yeah, imagining what they're seeing. There's no proof because there were no monitors. There were no monitors. But you could tell if one of those film cameras is kind of pointed down a little bit.

You know, they're in a wide shot. If it's up, you know, they're in a tight shot because they are more level with the actor's face. So I could kind of tell that. But for me, being with my actors was more important than if I missed a shot. It was important for me on any show I do, and I still do it.

I never go to Video Village. Video Village is where all the monitors are, where all the writers and they hang out outside a shot. They watch these monitors, and they're the first to tell you when they see a boom shadow or anything like that. But I'm always, you know, be it the Millers or Chicago Sons or Will and Grace,

I'm always on the floor with my actors because to me, they're my cherished human beings. So, but I can, you know, and sometimes I don't watch them because they're mugging too much, but I always will listen. I'll always listen to the dialogue. And I will always try if an actor on the way to a joke

screws up the line. I will always jump in and scream, bup, bup, bup, bup, bup. So that the audience doesn't hear the joke the wrong way because humor is 90% surprise, and if they hear it the right way, the laugh will be three times as large. Yeah, let me explain that again for Tracy. Just to be clear, there's such an interesting thing,

and I remember experiencing firsthand the first time, and it's such a joy. Would be you're doing a scene, and then you, you know, I go up or somebody goes up and there's like a little bit of a flub, and Jimmy can tell that the, it's right before the joke is coming in the punchline, and he can tell that the audience isn't going to get

the full effect of the joke, and Jimmy will jump in and full audience will go, stop, stop, stop. And everybody stops, and the audience is like, what the stop? Well, you can also tell that the actor's about to lose it. About to lose it, right? Yeah, yeah. And you guys all know that feeling of, you've been there with Jimmy doing that.

Yeah, the first time I was like 28 years old, and I'm like about to screw up a line, I'm like, what did I, what the fuck did I do? Did I do something wrong? I thought I was in so much trouble. And what he's doing is he's protecting the audience, and he's protecting you. He's giving you a chance to get it right the first time, and Jimmy, you're so right.

I'm such a big proponent of that too. So much of comedy is surprise, and the people who make all of us laugh are people who have that element of surprise that you'd never know what they're going to say. Yeah. And we will be right back. And now back to the show.

You know, you once said to me a long time ago, about making hit TV show, you said, it's actually really simple. You just got to hire funny people, period. And I kind of blown away by that. And so why do you think that that's so easy to say, but so hard for networks and studios to execute? Because there are only so many funny people.

That's interesting. Well, but what would you rather have a perfect sitcom script? In other words, all the jokes are like just bulletproof. Like anybody can get a laugh at these. Or would you rather have kind of like a double, right? Not a home run, but actors that can perform funny. They can create characters that are just kind of entertaining and fun to watch anyway,

and then the fun dialogue is kind of a plus. Like, do you know what I mean? What is more valuable? A great script or great actors? I guess that's correct. Well, to start with a great script, a great script is more valuable. But bad actors can screw that up, right?

Yeah, but hopefully that doesn't happen. You know, there's a few times in my career where I've read perfect scripts, like Cheers was unbelievable. The friend script, literally the friend script, 95% of what was on the page that I read is on that screen. For the pilot of friends. For the pilot of friends, and Will and Grace.

And, you know, I want to take a great script and make it better. I can take a good script and make it very good, but that's smoke and mirrors. You need to be lucky enough to have a great script, a great cast, and the right time slot. Speaking of a great cast, Jimmy, I want you to, I remember you've told this story before, we all know, but you did the friend's pilot.

God, I remember that pilot. I don't know if you guys do. I remember reading that pilot in New York and going in and auditioning for it and not being called that. Did you get it? I'm waiting. I did change numbers, so there's a chance. I killed you.

Jimmy killed me. He got my tape and he threw it in the trash. Yeah, yeah. You were not right for Rachel. I was not. But I could have had a signature haircut. But anyway, so, Jimmy, you do that pilot, like you said, 95% is out there,

and you had the perfect cast for the perfect show. And I remember you telling me this story about, you took them to Vegas, right? Yeah. What was that story? In the third week or the fourth week, I went to Warner Brothers and I said, I think this show is really special.

Can you give me the plane to take these six people to Las Vegas? I want to take them to dinner. They were reluctant to give me the plane, so we walked. So they did give me the plane. I took them to Vegas. I took them to dinner at Spago in Cesar Palace. We had a big round table. I was there with the six of them, all greenhorns,

a little experience here and there. Swimmer had done a Monty before, and J.A. was in, she was in Muddling Through, and Courtney had been on Family Ties, but really kind of green. And I literally said, and I know it was incredibly prophetic, but I had no idea at the time, I said, this trip to Vegas, walking around this casino,

is your last shot at anonymity. You will never be able to walk through a casino or anywhere without being mauled. Wow. It's 100% true. And then they had no money, so I gave each $200, and they gambled, and we had a great time, we came back,

and the rest is history. Yeah, they turned it into 500 million. Wow. Those are good odds they had. I'm sidebar, right, just sidebar Vegas story. Jimmy knew my mom, and I took her to this really, really, really fancy restaurant in Vegas one time, and she always kind of had thought,

she had to put on airs when we were around, because we didn't grow up with any money, so we were at this really fancy restaurant, and the waiter comes by, he's in a tuxedo, and he goes, and she had her friends there with her too, and the waiter goes, can I start you off with something to drink? And she goes, I'll have a white Zinfandel, please.

And he goes, okay, and he's just about to walk away. She goes, excuse me, he goes, yeah, she goes, can you put some ice in that, please? It was like a five-star restaurant. I was like, an ice and a white Zinfandel. But anyway, that's such a cool story. I miss your mom, honey. I know me too.

I don't know where she is, she hasn't returned my calls. You should keep an eye on her. Oh, Will. Oh, somebody moved the bar down. Somebody lowered the bar. I'm just saying. But wait a minute. Back of us take insistence.

Jimmy, back up. You did that with us too, by the way, which was so great. You took us to San Francisco at the beginning of Will and Grace. How do you know? How do you know before anybody else knows? Yeah, you never took me anywhere

on any of the shows you did that I was in. He must have smelled something. Think of the show, honey. You were 15 on the Hogan family. So where are we going to go? Chuck E. Cheese. I think it had driven me out to Laughlin or something. That hysterical.

But you know, Jimmy, also you told me once, when you got the script for Cheers, and you tell me, I'm going to get it wrong, so please just jump in. But I think you said something like, you called the Charles brothers who wrote it and you said, thank you for bringing radio to TV, meaning it was all about the words.

You almost didn't even have to look at it because it was so well written or something like that. That's exactly my quote. I said, you brought radio back to television. Which one was this? Cheers. Cheers. But you'd known them, you'd met them on taxi, yeah?

We met on taxi, yeah. When we came up with the idea of a bar, we spent a lot of time in bars just researching. And we would sit and we'd order, believe it or not, I ordered a Weiss and Vintel with ice. Sure, of course. It's incredibly ironic. Yeah, it's not ironic.

I do believe it turns out it's a very popular drink. And we would sit there and we would just listen. You know, they had no idea who we were. And so all that stuff, in fact, in the pilot, what's the sweatiest movie ever made, that run comes from when we were in our office outside the Paramount Commissary, we heard two people talking about the sweatiest movie ever made.

The sweatiest movie. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it was, are you joined? You asked me how I know? Yeah. I don't know. Well, it seems like you do. I knew from the run through of Cheers how good that show would be

because we always did a run through. On all my shows, we do an audience run through three days before we shoot. Just to see if we got a piece of shit or we got a piece of turd. And the audience comes in, you know, I have one camera covering the action. We did it on the Millers.

We did it on Chicago Sons. And from that, you get a sense of what the audience is going to react to. And I remember on Cheers, when Georgie went entered and people at Norm and Sam said, what do you know? And Norm said, not enough. It was never written as a joke. Oh, really? No, it was not a joke.

Hey, what do you know? Not enough? That's a story. Not enough. And because of the person saying it and how he looked and a guy like that in a bar, it all gelled to become this huge laugh and made the writer's life miserable

because every time he entered, they had to come up with a new norm issue. You're right, of course. How much of, when you're casting these incredible ensembles like Friends or Cheers and the other shows that you've done, I mean, your batting average must be incredible. And how do you know, do you know, when you see someone like George Wendt come in,

are you making a calculation that, OK, I know the dialogue, this guy's going to have to say, the combination of his, how he comes across, what his natural sort of communication thing is, with these, like, is it that? Are you trying to figure out a puzzle there? Or are you just going on instinct? Oh, this is a great guy.

He's funny. It'll work. Well, the way the character of Norm was written, George is the perfect person to play that. He looks like he's had a few beers. He never gets off of bar stool. He's dry, which that character was. So, again, we took something, a great part,

put a great actor in it, and it took off. You take a great part and put a kind of good actor in it. It's not going to be as effective. He must have loved his blocking, George Wendt. Oh, my God. He's like where he stands and sits and stuff. All he did was sit on the chair. Did he at any point say, all right,

it looks like I'm going to be sitting on this bar stool for a long time. Paul. Did he ever talk to the set dressers or anything about making that seat a little bit cushier or a little bit more support? Or did he ever, did him or John Ratzenberg ever get involved with any of that stuff?

No, George said he could file, if he had hemorrhoids, it would be, he could get paid. Your fault. By the way, George Wendt, Jason Sudeik, his uncle. I know. Oh, that's great. His mom's brother. That's amazing.

Yeah, it's, you know, George, he was, he was great. And in the book, I talk about the fact that Norm's seat where he sat, he's got a long haul to get to that seat. Yeah. Normally, he would walk in the bar and I would put him in the seat, the first seat he came to, but the fact was Diane was there in the show. She enters and she has to be there closer to the door

because she's waiting for her, her fiance to come with the ring. So it forced me to take George all the way across. So it made the Normisms have to be a little longer. And so to get him around there. But it ended up being such an important part of that character because every time you see him kind of Exhaustingly kind of shuffle in, it just sets up. It's like this declaration.

But isn't that amazing? Like it's almost like Jason goes back to your original question. Like, what would you say, like, what do you do? What is directing? Well, here you've got, you've got a puzzle, right? You've got to bring, you've got an actor who's sitting on one end, you've got to bring another actor in,

and you got to figure out a way to make it interesting and funny and on story and bring him across and get him into a different spot. It's a lot of shit to think about. Willie on the pilot of the Millers. The most important thing for me was in that scene between your mother and father. You know, when they're talking about sex, that whole thing.

Yeah. Was to put you in the middle. Yeah. Do you remember that? I sure do. Yeah, of course. Yeah, because that's where the reactions have to be. Yeah.

It's not funny. It's not funny if they're both in one, if they're on both on one side of the stage and you're on the other side because you're reacting only one way. So to figure out that puzzle, it was, you know, it was obvious to me that you had to be in the middle from your fault between your father and your mother because that's where the laughs were.

I know. And it was, you were so friggin' funny in that moment. Oh, thank you. You were, God. I love that. But then there's another puzzle you got to figure out with the wing cameras there. If he's in the middle and they're book-ending him,

you don't want him jump. You don't want him in both two shots, right? So like, you got to decide who's going to be in the single, who's going to be in the two-shot. Like, your work doesn't stop. Well, there were three singles there because they were far enough apart. Oh, okay.

Wow. That was the greatest thrill for me. So I was under contract doing a show at NBC. And then my agent said, I wasn't really supposed to take a meeting with Jimmy and Greg Garcia, our friend, the great Greg Garcia, who I loved to death. And so they said,

well, Greg Garcia and Jimmy Burroughs might be at our office. And if you run into them there, it's not a meeting. And I said, that's true. So they literally like told me what office they were in. And then I just had, it was kind of like all, and then we talked about doing the millers. And that's how that went down. And I was, it was such a thrill, thrill, thrill for me, man.

You know, I remember Jimmy in the pilot of Will and Grace since we're talking about pilots. I have come at my character, Jack comes in with a bird cage and all this luggage. Guapo. Guapo. Oh my God. I didn't even remember that.

I know it's intense. But I, so I come in with this bird cage covered. It's covered bird cage and luggage. And I keep, the joke is it's a runner through the pilot where I'm going to keep moving in and Will says, not tonight, not tonight. I'm like, God, okay, come back tomorrow, whatever the thing is. And Jimmy said, and when I got really upset with Will,

I would shake the luggage and the bird cage and I would become like very physical. And Jimmy goes, wait, stop. And he goes over to props and he goes, you got any bird feathers or anything? And the guy goes, yeah, I can, I can muster something up. He throws the bird feathers in the cage. So when I shake them, all the feathers.

Every time. Every time. Like I'm throwing the bird around. It was so funny. And then I was like, how do you think of shit like that? It was so hilarious. It will give you a prop that will make everything come together. It'll be the perfect stitch between the script

and the performance. This one little thing he'll pick up on a desk and put it in your hand and play with this when you're saying that line. Speaking of that, Mr. B, is there comedy in your future? Or is that, is that skill gone? I keep telling Jimmy, I keep saying the same thing to him.

Like, what are you doing? What are you doing? You're killing people. You're the funniest. You're literally killing people. Stop killing people. I'm ready. I'm ready.

What are you doing? I'm ready. Well, I'm ready. We've seen enough of your dark side. I know. The blue, the blue money laundering. Jimmy, you should have seen him on the 16th green today. He was so dark.

He made me put out a two-footer. I thought he gave me the putt, and he gave it to our buddy, Dan, and I picked up and he goes, not you, and he made me go back and put it. I said, put it back down. He did. Oh, jeez.

And I said, I said, karma's going to get you. I said, you're going to get into a fender bender. And I said, you're going to be exchanging insurance with a guy on Beverly Glen right now. On the way home. On the way home. But Jimmy, so you do,

I mean, there's so many great things. I feel like we're all over. I know. I love stories. I just love all your stories. The best stories. Tell me just like Ted Danson wasn't supposed to get the part in Shears, right?

Like who had it originally? And what was that story? No, no. There was a final audition for the Diane and Sam in Shears. There were three couples, Fred Dreyer, former Los Angeles Ram, and Julia Duffy.

She was funny. Billy Devane and Lisa Eichorn. Wow. And Ted and Shelley. Bill Devane. Wow. Bill Devane. Yeah.

Well, so they were all three different. Yeah. They were all completely different. Obviously the best chemistry was Ted and Shelley. Although when we got up with the network after, two out of the 10 people wanted to hire Fred Dreyer because at that point, Sam alone was a wide receiver for the Patriots.

Uh-huh. So we felt Freddie didn't have the skill, the comedic skills to do a full-on series. Although we brought him back as Sam's friend. So the obvious choice was Ted and Shelley. Was Tartakov still running things, or was it Warren Littlefield by then? No, it was Brandon.

Brandon, when we started in, at NBC when we made a deal in 1961, Fred Silverman was running, 1981. Fred Silverman was running. By the time we came back with Cheers, Grant Tinker had taken over, and Brandon was there. And, you know, Grant hired me.

He was the husband to Mary Terry Moore. Mary Terry Moore, yeah. And you guys, the first season, you guys were like in the bottom of the ratings the first season. Is that right? We were, on Thanksgiving, we were, there were 77 shows on the air.

We were 77th. Wow. That's crazy. I mean, the fact, by the way, at that time, there was so much pressure. If you didn't have a huge number, you'd get canceled. How did, they just knew,

I guess Brandon Tartakov just knew that it was just going to take a minute. Seinfeld had a similar start, yeah? They had nothing else. Yeah. Wow. They had nothing else. Plus, Brandon and Grant loved the show.

The press loved the show. And then in the summer of our first season, once the audience, our competition was Simon and Simon. And the lead in the Simon and Simon was a Magnum PI with Tommy Selleck. So everybody watched that show. So in the summer, when they re-ran our shows,

people started to watch us because they had already seen Simon and Simon and Magnum. Smart. So we started to take off. And then a year after that, Cosby came in and that was it. Wow. And now, a word from our sponsor.

And now, back to the show. Now, why do you think it is that there are so few multi-cam sitcoms on television today versus back then? I think at one point there were, I want to say there were like 50 multi-cam shows between the four networks. And now there's six?

Yeah. Yeah, probably. I mean, the audience is still there. I mean, stuff is still funny. That format is still entertaining. And why don't they give it a chance to stay on? Like, it doesn't seem like this. I have no idea.

You know, I've attended the death of multi-camera sitcoms many times, but I'm afraid now, I don't know what's going on. CBS has two comedies on the air. That's it. They have ghosts. And that's single-camera, isn't it? Yeah, but they have neighborhood,

which is a multi-camera. I just don't understand it. I mean, I can understand how comedies have gone away in movies because they used to offset their costs with DVDs and VHS tapes. That whole market's gone away. But like in television, the business model of it, you would think would still support it.

Yeah. So I just, I don't get it. I have no idea. I wonder if they just built it, they would come. Yeah, or just keep it on. Well, you need one hit. But Chuck Lorre had a ton of great hits, and that didn't open up the floodgates either.

People don't want to laugh anymore, Jason. People like you have been flooding them with murdering and money laundering. You killed laughter in America. Jimmy, when you did... Single-handedly. Single-handedly. Jimmy, and also on the golf course.

You're killing people everywhere. Jimmy, so you mentioned you were on Mary Tyler Moore, and then you went and you met the Charles brothers when you were on Taxi. Taxi was a cast that was also stacked with Colin. Andy Kaufman. Crazy real. So I was going to get to Andy Kaufman.

I remember one time you told me about working with Andy Kaufman, and when they had to, he had a deal. What was his deal? He was allowed to have, what's his name? Tony. Tony Clifton. Tony Clifton had to be on the show, right? Okay, so explain to Tracy who Tony Clifton is.

Okay. So when I actually met the Charles brothers on the Phyllis show, so that's a little known fact, but anyway, on Taxi, Andy Kaufman was hired to play Lockett and Mechanic, but in his deal, they had to hire Tony Clifton, which was Andy's alter ego. To hire his alter ego. It's insane.

He had to hire his alter ego to do one episode of Taxi. I mean, did he have the juice to make that kind of outrageous demand at the time? Who was he before you guys hired him? He was the bravest comic I've ever seen in the world. Yeah. He never told a joke. Ever.

Right. His act, he would wrestle women. That was one of his acts. He would come out. I saw him once come out, sit down in a chair and start reading Gone with the Wind until you left. He didn't care. It was three minutes.

It's very, it's very Will Forte. It's crazy. So the deal was that Andy would put on the Tony Clifton suit, which was frilled shirt and a bespeckled sport coat, prosthetics on his, on his cheeks, no prosthetics on his hands, which gave him away. And he was hired to play Louis De Palma's brother on an episode of Taxi.

Danny DeVito's character. Danny DeVito's character. Yeah. What? Okay. So I come in that day for the reading. And it's today that Bucky Dent hit the home run for the Yankees to beat the Red Sox.

And Tony and I, Tony, Danza and I are in the proper room watching this game and Andy had day night reversal. So when he would come to rehearsal, he would only come after one o'clock. So at nine in the morning we were watching this game and in walks Andy. And he said, when are we going to, he's, he's, he's got the Tony Clifton persona.

Tony Clifton. It's not, it's, it's, hey guys, come on, when are we going to rehearse? So Tony and I look at one another. And so we go out, we start rehearsing. And he can't do it. He just, cause he's Andy Kaufman playing Tony Clifton, playing Louis De Palma's brother.

Jesus. Oh my God. So it's, it's a disaster. It sounds exhausting. But wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, there's more. So he's got to get fired. So get this. He's got to get fired.

Cause I call Ed Weinberger down. I say, you got to see the scene. So he comes down. He's got to get, we got to, we have to fire. You have to fire Tony Clifton. Right. We have to fire Tony Clifton. And then, so we call George Shapiro, Andy's manager.

He says, Tony's not going to be happy. So Ed gets a call that we have to fire Tony, Tony slash Andy the next day. And he wants to be fired in front of the entire cast. With a prostitute on each knee. If you're going to fire me, you're going to talk to them too. So we come down the next day. There's a prostitute on each knee.

Tony, Tony Danza has a camera as an eight millimeter. And Ed comes down and he says, you're fired. And Tony says, I'm not to leave it. And said, you're fired. He says, I'm not leaving. So meanwhile, I'm watching Tony, Tony filming. And I'm standing with Judd and Jeff Conaway. And Jeff Conaway says, I want to go, I'm going out there.

I'm going to fucking kill him. Yeah. And both of us, Tony and I grabbed Conaway and say, just let this play out. Just, just let this play out. And Ed says, you're fired. He says, I'm not going. And Judd says, okay, I'm going to play.

So Judd goes out there and literally picks him up, takes him off the stage. And he's screaming, you know, like this. And then we hire another actor, Richard Ferange, to play Tony's, to play Danny's brother. We shoot the show the next week. And he comes in as if nothing happened. That's absolutely lord.

But that was him. He got his nachos that way. I know, but that's so, but if it wasn't for like, if it wasn't filmed, what's the payoff? It's just something he wanted to do. I mean, Sean, he kept a shift at Greenblatt's deli while he was on the show.

I'm not kidding. Yeah. It's a bust point. Yeah. Jimmy, was he, what was he like behind the cameras? When you guys, did Andy ever just kind of get real with you and kind of get you, let you in on the joke? Or did he just kind of stay?

Never got in on a joke. Never did that, but there were, there was the party, the wrap party after that at Ed's house at the end of the season when Andy showed up and Conaway was still mad. And so I said to Andy, come with me, follow me, we'll go to my house. So I went to my house and he had a date and I was married then.

And I talked to him. He was, he's a rich kid, he was a rich kid from Great Neck Long Island. Wow. Yeah. And I said, what goes on? He says, I just, yeah, he says, that's how I think. That's what I want to do. He was, that was, that was, if you ever saw his act,

he had that mechanic suit on. He did, you know, the Mighty Mouse theme. Yeah. You know, or he would lip sync. Here I come to say today, he did that. He did, he wrestled women. He was the best Elvis impersonator you've ever seen. Yeah.

Didn't he get in the fight with Letterman once or something? Yeah. He may have. There's a great documentary on him. I know. Which one? I'm not sure what it's called, but I saw one. Not the Jim Carrey one, right?

The Jim Carrey one. No, no, that movie is incredible, but there's like this documentary I saw. And I feel like that Ted Danza footage was in it somehow. No, Tony never found it. No. Well, there was some great stuff on the set of Taxi though, for sure.

Yeah. Jimmy, tell us why you wrote this book. What was, I'll bet you resisted for a long time. Somebody finally beat you down and you told all these great stories. What do you hope the reader will get from it, aside from lots of laughter? So you got my text talk about the book?

Yeah. No, but I'm curious myself. No, I can't wait to read it. Well, the number one person who made me write the book was my wife, Debbie. Love. She said, you're sitting at home like a slouch. It's COVID.

Put these stories down somewhere. So I got a, I called my agency and they put me in touch with a literary guy who had just written the Mel Brooks book, a guy named Eddie Freefeld, who's a big fan of comedy. And I started telling stories. And I have so many of them, which is one of the reasons Dad made me write the book. I just, you know, she said, you got to get those stories out

there. Did you start remembering stories that you didn't even know we're still in your head? I'll bet so. Yeah. They start triggering other things, you know. Once you tell a story and then your memory story, and then you think of a person, your memory stuff.

And so it's, you know, it became a little bit about me growing up and a little bit about my dad, mostly about the shows I've done and the shows I've done and the incredible amount of fun I've had working with actors, especially like you guys. You know, you put all these great characters in people's living rooms for so many years to the point where they kind of have become family members for so many people around the world, not just in

America. So I bet it would be fascinating for these people to actually basically learn the birth story of all of these favorite family members that they have. By the way, I want to learn about. I like, I can't wait. Well, yeah, we all, and we all, like everybody out there, we all have relationships with these shows.

And for us, it triggers emotions of that time in our life. Cheers because it was on for nearly a decade or a decade. It reminds me of, it reminds me of my grandmother who watched every episode of Cheers. It reminds me of my buddies. It reminds me of us when we were teenagers and quoting it on Friday morning after a Thursday night and some great thing. And it played such a huge life.

I, I quote all the time, one of the funniest scenes I've ever seen in a television program or a movie ever. It just always makes me laugh is that scene where Diane says, Shelley Long goes, I'm leaving and I'm never coming back. This is the last you'll ever see. And she walks out, right? So I was like, huh, they're kind of stunned. And then all of a sudden the door cracks open just a little

bit. And you see her hand come in and she's reaching for the coat rack because she forgot her coat. And, and Rhea Perlman, Carla, she notices that this is happening. So she's standing next to the coat rack. So then she just pulls the coat rack just out of reach of the hand till finally the point Diane comes in because she's got

to get her coat. She steps back inside to grab her coat. At which point Carla goes, Hey, everybody, look, it's Diane. To me, it's like such a perfect comedy moment. I talk about it all the time. So clean. How often do you talk to those folks anymore? Really, any of the cast members from any of these shows,

any of these careers you've made are aside from us three idiots, how often do you get to visit with some of these great folks? I see, I see Jen, you know, frequently. Well, I don't frequently, you know, for her frequently twice a year. Yeah. And I see swimmer when I can.

Yeah. And LeBlanc and Teddy and. Teddy Danson. They're all such great people too. I mean, you know, I bet working with you helped because a lot of these people found enormous success and careers under your tutelage. They're very lucky.

I count myself as one of these people. Although my, my, my, my career was stumbling for many years, but being able to work with and for somebody like you who had just such an ease with so many people made it seem so fun, so comfortable, you know, kept us from, you know, having our heads blow up or, or, I mean, I just, the greatest note you ever gave me was, you know, stop pushing, you know, like I, I could have just, you know, taken.

Dying for you to take it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To jump on that, Jimmy, you know, I've, I've always said to you that, you know, you're such a father figure to me. I don't know if you heard, I never had one, but I've learned. Well, you did.

No, you didn't have one. He just ran away. He took off. Car and gear and just get it. Yeah. Once he got to know you, he split. Well, Jimmy's the dad that stayed, but I've learned so much from you over the years, not only about comedy, obviously, but

about the business, about storytelling, about relationships, about communication, about finances, about respect and so many other things. And I never had that in my whole life. Being a good leader on set too. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I remember, Jimmy, you don't remember this probably, but the

first time I ever actually met you, I was with Jason. We were in New York. You were there for the upfronts. And we, we stopped on the street. We were on Fifth Avenue. We were talking for a second in there. We said, all right, see you later. And I said to you, all right, cheers.

Just as like a sort of like, you know, you use the term cheers. Typical Canadian. Jimmy, you walked away and Jason was paused there with that look, you know, that Bateman look on his face, kind of similar to his face right now. He just goes, fucking cheers, man, to Jimmy Burroughs. What are you, an idiot? And I go, I didn't even, I didn't even, I swear to God.

We'd always, we'd always go, we'd always, if we were at a dinner, we'd always have our glasses with Jimmy and whatever it was. Somebody, somebody inevitably to go cheers. He'd go, Will and Grace. Hey, to friends, huh? Yeah. Anyway, Jimmy, thank you for being here, my dear. You're very sweet to join us.

Three of my favorite people. You're our favorite. Jimmy, we love you. Love you so much. We love you too. I still have my favorite photograph I have in my house. It's just you taking at some wedding somewhere. You just looking right into camera.

No expression. No, nothing. Just a big white finger, middle finger. Right there. Can you see it? Right there. Oh yeah, there it is. Yeah.

It was Amy Peach's wedding. That's right. That's right. Carolina in the city. Another baby you born. Wait, wait. I've also got to remind, just remind me of this, to be the greatest direction I've ever heard you give anybody.

We were rehearsing a scene once and you said to somebody, as we're going, moving from one scene over to the next scene, you're wheeling your podium. And you go to this person, you go, hey, clear around the lines. And they said, which ones? And you said, all of them. One of the pieces of directions I got one time, Jimmy was really sick one week, like really sick.

And you still showed up to work and you're still working. And I was like being annoying, my annoying self. And I was like, Jimmy, I think it's funny if I do, you know, if I jump on the couch here and I go, what do you think if I just ran over here and then exit the door? And you said, honey, I don't care. And I ended up doing some stupid shit. And then you were better.

You got better like the next day or two days after you're like, what are you doing? The best. When I was doing Mike and Molly, I had a scene with Melissa and Billy and Reno. And Billy and Reno were on either side of Melissa and Melissa was listening. And they weren't, the dialogue wasn't making any sense to the character of Molly. So I said, why don't you kind of get up and walk away?

They probably won't even notice. And so she did. And then in the run through, the writers said, we would rather have her at the table. So I said, okay, and Melissa said, what should I do? I said, walk away in your mind. Yeah. I'll bet she did.

Yeah. She did. And she sent me a blanket with walk away in your mind. Embroidery. Walk away. That's hysterical. Jimmy, you're the king. No, you guys are the king.

Thank you. We love you, Pally. We love you. Give Deb a big hug, please. Thank you for doing this. You can slam your laptop shut if you want. No. Okay. Sean, what a girl.

Isn't that great? I was so excited because I knew you guys would be so thrilled and we all know him and love him. And you had no idea that he was coming? No idea. I got the email today too, right about his book, about the book party. Yes, for his book. And so I was just looking at it when I got home right before we started doing the podcast today. I was looking at it.

I was just reading the email before I got in and we started talking about Jason before he got on. And then I was like, oh my God, they have the books coming out. I'm so happy and Jimmy and I miss him. And then there he is. I just love that man so much. I wanted to be, I wanted to be Jimmy Burroughs so bad. You still can. I was on my way. I was trying so hard. I was shadowing him. I was watching him directly.

Do you remember when we did, when I came on to guest on Will and Grace and I was staying Jason at your old house. And I stayed with you and Amanda. By the way, I never thanked you. Thank you. It was a while ago. No, no, no. It's never too late to say thanks. But I went and when I rehearsed all week and then tape night, you came to the tape night and you stood down on the floor with Jimmy and you shadowed him while we were doing the taping. Do you remember that? Absolutely remember that.

I wanted it so bad. And then acting got in the way. And here I am. He's a lovely man. Everything I know about this business is because of him, basically. Think about the show. He rattles him off. So we go Mary, Tyler Moore, Taxi.

Then every episode of Cheers, Frasier, every episode of Will and Grace does the pilots of Friends in a bunch of the first season. Sorry if I'm missing. No, you're right. Keep going. Big bang theory. Two and a half men. Big bang theory. Two and a half men. All these great sitcoms, multi-camera shows. Yeah. And a lot of them he directed every episode.

I know. It's crazy. Where the hell is that format now? I just, I still don't get it. I think we talked about it. I think it's because networks don't bet on just, you have to bet on one to keep it on like they did with Cheers. Like they do with a lot of shows. We just, or Seinfeld, right? You just have to like pick one guys at any of the networks that you like and keep it on the air no matter what.

Let me ask you this too. Are there any multi-cam writers out there who are interested in doing that? Do you think that that's a kind of dying art in that way? I bet a lot of them have definitely gotten rusty probably, but I mean, I think it's, I'm not saying that it's an easy thing to do because it's not. But there is a formula to it. I mean, it is set up, set up joke and you get a great group of people together in a room. You can find a rhythm. I don't think that's, I think that the networks are just feeling like the audiences wouldn't watch and I would, I would say that.

If it was good, I would watch the fuck out of it. But I mean, even if it isn't good, I think just people's attention spans are even smaller now than they were back then. Like never more have you needed something that's only 22 minutes long, you know? Right. And that you don't have to pay too much attention to that you can just kind of listen like he said, like the radio, the rhythm of it. Playing as people say, like, I like a show that's just kind of playing in the background. These are perfect. Well, I know the three of us, we've threatened, we've talked about doing it in the past.

We can say that. And we keep going like about, what is it about every three months? The three of us looking each other go, let's do a multi-cam, right? Yeah. And then we're like, no, American. We're gonna side bar after this and do another one. Yeah. We're gonna another talk about it.

Well, what if it wasn't on every week? What if it was on every other week? Oh, here it comes. Here it comes. Here's the new pitch. Hi, wee. Smart. Nice.

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