SmartLess - "John Williams"

Episode Date: June 17, 2024

Let’s get this poddy started with the incomparable John Williams. We get fortissimo with the great maestro, from escape velocity to the greatest possible luxury in a crowded urban area. We���re definitely gonna need a bigger boat… It's an all-new SmartLess.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey guys, welcome to the cold open. Anything you'd like to say? No, Will, you can't start a cold open with a yawn. Sorry, dude. Sean, anything to fire up the cold open with? You want a dad joke? Yeah, open up the book. Okay.

Sorry, listener, just give us one second. Welcome to our cold open and... Did you hear about the cheese that's been working out? I didn't what happened the dude is shredded Hello, my name is Jason. Hi, Jason. My name is John. I'd love to pod with you guys. Are you guys up for podding?

Sure. Let's get this podding starting. Let's get this podding starting. That's a good one. I never heard that. Let's get this podding started. Anything worth talking about in your... I looked up right before this, I was looking up how to survive in your life.

How to survive in your life. How to survive in your life. How to survive in your life. How to survive in your life. How to survive in your life. How to survive in your life. How to survive in your life. How to survive in your life. How to survive in your that. Let's get this party started. Anything worth talking about? I looked up right before this,

I was looking up how to survive a nuclear war. Mark 7 Jason had a good one. Uh huh, we gotta mark it down. Sorry. Sorry. No. Will, anything exciting in your life today? No.

This morning? Still just in recovery. Wanna know how to survive a nuclear war? Oh right, you're still trying to kick your virus. Yeah. Sean, what were you saying? You wanna win? Do you wanna know how to survive a nuclear war?

Or a nuclear bomb? Okay. Run? So you've gotta cover your eyes and get down, and then you gotta find a basement or something. Okay, man. And we'll be right back. I mean. Because I read a headline this morning when I got up, Okay man. And we'll be right back.

Because I read a headline this morning when I got up, North Korea is ready to, they're always saying whatever. You know we're doing a happy feel good live cast here? I'd like just to say really quick, Jason. Okay, sorry, do you want to make a statement? I do. I would just like to say, um... If I can get in here. Wait, Willie's got a really, we got a really fast, uh, good joke for Jason today. Uh...

Well, about the fact that, that, uh, dogs can't do MRIs, but cats can. Okay, so here we go. Great. Did you guys get on early? We both watched the same TikTok video. Oh, no. I don't have the TikTok. Anyway, Sean's got a few written down. Go ahead, Sean, he wrote them down. By the way, he went back and he wrote them down.

Go ahead, Sean. I know, you wanna hear another one? Milk is the fastest liquid on earth. It's pasteurized before we can even see it. Not bad. Okay. Anything else you wanna help the people driving to finish off their car accident with?

No, because they're gonna get super excited about our guest today. And now listen, I love when we get a true living legend on this podcast. My guest today served our country in the Air Force, became a renowned jazz musician, and then eventually moved to Hollywood to work on some of the biggest films in motion picture history

I'm sure you're gonna guess who it is right away He is the single most Academy Award nominated living person and after Walt Disney He's the second most nominated person of all time anyone in the world from all walks of life could hum his work guys It's the illustrious and comparable one of my heroes John Williams. Got it. Yes This is so cool unbelievable incomparable, one of my heroes, John Williams. Got it! No way! Yes, incredible. Wow! Look at this! Wow! Good day, sir.

This is so cool. Unbelievable. Hi, John. Hello, gentlemen. How are you today? I just saw pictures of all three of you, and you looked healthy to me, like three NFL players on their day off.

Yeah. I know, that's stretching it. So Sean, how is it possible you could play Oscar LeVance? Well, I don't know. It shocked us too. Because I don't look anything like him, I know. No, I know. But I studied, you know, I worked on all the things

an actor should work on, the voice to walk this thing. Did you research a lot of things? I did, I read all his books. I went to the archives at the Paley Center, where they have all the old footage, and I just spent a couple days there looking at stuff, and then I downloaded some stuff on YouTube. You just go nuts when you try to do something like that.

Did you have to go to the piano and sort of? This is supposed to be about you, John Williams. John, did you get a chance to see Sean do his play on Broadway? No. No, no. Oh, he was just incredible. I mean, you would have been very impressed

with his piano playing ability. You have somebody who would know what to look for, this guy's classically trained, and he did the entire Rhapsody in Blue solo, on stage, on a grand piano. It was incredible. Sean, who did the first performance of the Piano Concerto of Gershwin?

Was it Oscar? No, it was Gershwin, but Oscar recorded the piano concerto of Gershwin. Was it Oscar? No, it was Gershwin, but Oscar recorded the most famous recording of it. Okay, fine. So, and that's what Oscar was known for, and he tried to, it's a very Salieri, Mozart kind of relationship where they, a love-hate,

where Oscar revered Gershwin, but could never be quite like him. The books are wonderful. His wit and the whole thing. I met him once in the office. Oh, you did? Yes, in the office of Louis B. Mayer. Oh, wow. Accompanying Howard Keele and a woman,

it's name I can't remember, and they were auditioning Howard and the Girl for Louis B. Mayer, and he had people from the music department, including Oscar. That's crazy. At this audition, and it was in Mayer's office where there was a piano, and I just came in, sheepishly, through the back door to company's people

and then leave before the discussion started. Really? I've always adored Oscar Levant. Yeah, he's... That's fantastic. He's fantastic. You know, he was a student of Schoenberg, did you know that?

Wow, you were? Oscar was, oh yeah, he was a very student. Well Oscar was, you said you were? No, no, no, Mike, I'm not sure. Well Oscar was, yes, I knew that. But how can I help you guys? What on earth can I possibly give you? You've already done plenty by bringing this to do this.

Yeah, John, you just tipped the fact that you said that you were in Louis B. Mayer's office, which is such a mind blow. Yeah. This is, by the way, I'm Will. It's such a pleasure to meet you. For Tracy, he was a big studio head, like mogul. Film executive, yeah.

What were those days like? What were the people, these old sort of iconic studio heads like, guys like Louis B. Mayer? What was your experience with gentlemen like that back in the day? Well, of course, I really didn't have contact or access to them. I did have a relationship with Lew Wasserman, actually,

but he was of a younger generation than the Warner Brothers. Jack Warner, I used to go to the previews of the Warner Brothers films that I did, and Jack Warner always went to those. I met him three or four times at those previews. He knew I had something to do with music. I never knew my name, so he referred to me as Beethoven.

At the end of the preview, he would say, Beethoven, we need a little more music in reel five. I'd just say, yes sir, we'll do that. But the other moguls, I'm afraid, were a generation beyond me. But what I would say about them, I think, is they were all ideologues in a way. Early motion picture entrepreneurs, probably a little, when I say ideologues, they were probably a little bit naive in their approach to the world. Yeah. Were they as showmany and as gregarious

as they're portrayed in the movies, as these guys smoking big cigars and screaming out orders and stuff like that? I think businessmenmen more than anything. From Eastern Europe, from Brooklyn, from across the country to Hollywood, and really creating from the ground up the business that has been so wonderful

all through the last century, now of course threatened by all kinds of forces, technology of all kinds, and worldwide production of film that not eclipses Hollywood, but it puts it in a different kind of a frame of lighting and creativity. John, what would you say, that's a great, that's an interesting point you made, what would you say in your opinion is the greatest, you know threat to this this wonderful film?

Industry that has been around for so long now What in your view right now is its most sort of imminent threat to to what we've got? well, probably the the the access and easy availability to all manner of things on film and whatever That is available at home right, so the great availability to all manner of things on film and whatever, that is available at home. So the great, just to flip about it, the great impediments might be said to be traffic jams

and parking lots. The thing of going to movies is it becomes more difficult, I think, for people, and the alternative's more easy to access. But we lose something. I think there's a, the old movie theaters were kinds of sort of temples where people would gather. It was a communal connection. Once a week you'd go to the movies, or twice a week.

In this special atmosphere, it had a spiritual vibe to it. And people were collecting theirs, almost like going to church in a way. The proscenium, the beautiful theater and so on. And it was a magic in all of that, I think, that attracted people. And we don't have that anymore. Even in newly constructed theaters have far less – they're utilitarian, of course – but far less imagination in the way the stages are constructed and so on.

Right. I think, in turn, I don't know if this is off the subject, but we think of the music of Bach three or 400 years ago. There were no concert halls. If you wanted to hear music, you had to go to church to hear an organ, to hear people sing. And that's where you received your music. You wanted to hear Bach cantata, you heard it in church.

You didn't, not in the concert hall. The concert hall is in a way constructed to ring the antiquarian bells, I guess you could say, of our collective memory that were gathered for something very, very special. And we listen to Beethoven in this atmosphere. Or we go and we watch Cary Grant and Audrey Hepburn in that atmosphere. That's so interesting.

I think all of the social changes and pragmatic aspects of all of this has changed so much. I think that spiritual aspect of the experience of seeing films is largely gone, a complex series of reasons for that. Yeah. But I think. From a technological perspective, have you found that you've changed,

wanted to change, resisted change, had to change the way in which you think about your scores in that when people are watching at home, for the most part, they're not in the best sound environment possible. A lot of them are watching in stereo. Some have the sort of the surround button pressed on their television, but they're still,

they're not getting the kind of experience audio wise that they get in a theater. And do you find that that affects the way you think about creating a balance of instruments and where they would live in the channels? I think the answer has to be no, because when I'm working, I'm thinking of some kind of ideal that I know is ever gonna be there.

It makes me want to say, there are other differences. I think the technologies and special effects that can be accomplished make it unnecessary to do a 10-minute, one-take, complicated dance number by Fred Astaire, where the actual performance is something that is breathtaking. We don't know that it's not edited, but we can feel that aspect of physical exertion. something that is breathtaking. We don't know that it's not edited, but we can feel that aspect of physical exertion and mastery of one's body. The same can be said of orchestras, I think, also.

The difference between so much beautiful work, by the way, of sound design is done in combination with orchestra. Now, a wonderful development. However, if we have a scene that's four minutes long and the orchestra's going to play that in the studio, we may make five takes of that four-minute scene and each one is different. One take is alive, is a performance that is above and beyond, spiritually all the other four.

And you have to believe that the audience will respond to that. It's like live performances, as you all know, are different every night. Some night is full of magic, and the next night it's flat. We say the audience isn't good. and the next night it's flat. We say the audience isn't good. Or however we would explain it.

So I think technology has affected the performance aspect of film, making it very easy to sort of mock up something that is beyond most people's ability to do. Yeah, that makes sense. Which brings me to a question I have about your process. I read somewhere that you don't read the scripts on purpose and the first time that you're exposed to the film

is the rough cut in the edit. And when you're sitting there watching the movie, whether it be Star Wars, Jurassic Park, Jaws, whatever it is, Indiana Jones, do you, are you? Keep going. I know, it's just unbelievable. Are you crafting a melody in your head as you're watching it, and then is that the melody

that we actually end up hearing? Or how does that process work for you? Or is there a temp in there? Yeah, is there a temp? Yeah. It is, it's good if possible not to even read a script or see Anything until the thing has been edited when we can form first impressions that will lead us in our work

More more effectively than almost anything else you read a book you you cast it you develop this the The atmosphere and so on and you can be very disappointed if you see a director's impression of what that would be. Or delighted and surprised also. It's not always possible. We have to discuss certain things with the directors maybe before it's been finished. And your second question about, maybe I can call it

thematic inspiration, if you like, that is not something I just pick up immediately when I see the film. In my case, it's going back to the panel, working a theme or two or three, manipulating them into something that seems inevitable, like it's been there always. Yeah, that's wild.

And that's the hardest part of the work. The simplest thing is the hardest thing. Yeah, and is it true that when you did Jaws, E, F, E, F, E, F, E, F, E, F, E, F, E, F, E, F, E, F, that Spielberg thought you were kidding, is that true? Is that true? Well, it is true. I wondered what to do about the shark,

but he came in and I played bum bum bum bum bum bum bum. There was a D in the third note, if you remember. Oh right, bum bum bum bum bum bum. Right, right. Yeah. And he looked at me and said, really? You think that could work? I thought maybe I had lost my mind. And I don't really remember the conversation,

but it must have been something like, well, Steven, I think when the cellos and basses and the orchestra do it, it can be very ominous. And what is good about it is that it can be very slow. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. It can speed up as the shock is approaching or the red herring is approaching. And the orchestra can join.

It can be deafening if it needs to be. The horns come in there and that's an alert. Ba-da-da-da! Yeah, exactly. And we will be right back. We're brought to you in part by ZipRecruiter. Many of us have heard the famous quote by Abraham Lincoln that says, good things come to those who wait,

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that you sort of pitched that to Steve and then he maybe he's a little reluctant or he thinks that you're kidding. Do you notice or when you that you sort of pitch that to Steve and and then he maybe is a little reluctant Or he thinks that you're kidding. Do you notice or have you noticed over the years? Because it's such a collaborative Experience working on a film and when you're working with the director Have you noticed that maybe they didn't start with they didn't have such an appreciation of music in the same way that you do And that they've learned or have certain directors learn to become, that you've in fact educated them over the years, and that their sense of,

their sophistication when it comes to approaching music has gotten much better. Sorry, this is a poorly worded question, but after working for years with Steven, have you noticed that his ability to appreciate what you're doing has gotten more... Collaborative.

Yeah, and sophisticated. And sophisticated. Yeah. It's tough because there's so much variation in the training of these directors and the taste that they develop or don't develop and their educations are all at a different level and from different angles and so on. If you talk about a Bartok Violin Concerto or something, most of them will not know what that is.

Right. Most film directors will know, have some familiarity with film music. They will know Bernard Herrmann and they will know Miklas Rosia and so on and so forth. But they won't know Ligeti or even less esoteric things than that. I don't know if you all remember Martin Ritt, a director who was a theater director in New York, came out here like Kazan and did some wonderful films. Was very suspicious of music in his film. He'd come from Broadway where we didn't have background music or rarely had it, and he wanted people to believe

what they were seeing and what they were hearing was real. And so you have put a symphony orchestra behind this dialogue scene and they say, man like Martin Rue says, I can't believe that. I don't need to have that. I've created the scene. My actors have done the job. You don't need to help them.

And that's the opposite of Steven, who can't seem to quite get enough music in his film. Different, good for me, by the way. Yeah, right, right, right. Partner for me. Was he, go ahead, sorry. There's such variation there, but I think what people truly recognize

is that it's true what Bernard Harmon said. There's no such thing as a silent film. We go back when the silence, we had the silence, we had organ or we had an orchestra in the pit, we had somebody playing a violin, something that would animate. And music seems an inseparable part of filmmaking. And whether it's contemporary electronic music

or classical romantic music, we recognize the need of it. Actors will be sometimes very unhappy when you play too much music for them. Yeah, yeah. Was the tonal shift and filmmaking shift that you both went through on Schindler's List, was that a comfortable transition for him into what was a much more pared down approach

by design, I'm sure, and much more potentially, I don't know, sophisticated is the right word, but it was definitely a departure from what you guys had been doing for so long. Was that exciting to you guys or a little scary for him, maybe? You mean the resources and shindles, more chamber music was a smaller.

Right, yeah. Yeah, a lot less single instruments at times as opposed to a more full-bodied orchestral. Some of the scenes were it's like Prillman alone. Some of the most breathtaking and horrible things was just his file. Whether it was a conscious decision to make it a more intimate chamber music kind of thing

was something we must have made unconsciously or through dialogue, I don't remember. I'm guessing something like, da da da da da da da da da da da da wouldn't work in general. I don't think it was six trumpets blowing their brains out. I don't think it would work quite well. Right, right.

So we stay with this up, Perlman, but a much better idea. You know, you mentioned earlier that the magic of a live performance and what a shame it is that the audience can't truly enjoy that because they can't fully trust it because of the process of putting together a score.

But one of the greatest cultural things I find in Los Angeles, of which there aren't many, I think everybody admits, is at the Hollywood Bowl, when they run a movie on the big screen and they pull all the music out and they have the LA Phil do it, and oftentimes you'll conduct that. But so for Tracy, like all the music you hear,

and take Jaws for example, if you pulled all the music out of it and you just watched the movie with all the dialogue and sound effects, that's something, but the music is an enormous character in any John Williams film. And so they just pull all that music out and then they play it live with the entire-

Right, shoot the picture, yeah. Yeah, the entire symphony or the entire orchestra. Do you like doing that? I mean, for me, it's magic because it is that live performance. You're seeing it done, pristine, matched to picture. Yeah, and it feels like if you miss one beat. Well, there's energy too, right?

Yeah, it's just stunning. I love it. I like doing it, yes, it is fun. I also like not doing it. Meaning I can play the score for the audience in the theater or at the bowl without the film, without the distraction of the film. And I can describe to the audience,

they're about to hear the kind of virtuosity they're going to hear in action scenes and so on, where the music is extremely difficult to play. It's at a virtuoso level, which when you watch the film, you can't appreciate it. There's just too much distraction. Right, yeah, that's right. I can take it very happily both ways,

with film or without it. Wait, talk about things that are difficult to play. We might have to cut this, but I try to get the end credits music to ET, and you can't find it, it's not published anywhere. And so my husband, Scotty, scoured the internet, we finally got it. This is me playing the end, which is one of my favorite pieces,

and it's so hard hard because you write very difficult music. ["The End of the World"] It's crazy. It is difficult, yeah. It's insane and it goes on and on. Sean, that's really good. Sean, you knocked me out.

It's a little fast, I was just a little bit slow. I think you wrote it slow, I think you wrote it slow. It is a little fast. Sean, take the note, okay? A little bit slow. I think you wrote it slow. I think you wrote it slow. It is a little fast. Sean, take the note, okay? A little fast. Take the note from John Williams. But now tell people the story of the last 15 minutes of ET because that's fascinating.

Just a moment ago you said Stephen really loves a lot of music in his movies. Yes. So what happened in the last 15 minutes of ET? Well, you remember the last 15 minutes had started with the bike chase. The police chasing the kids, the kids trying to get ET back to his spaceship.

And they accelerate to escape velocity, which I understand is 17,500 miles an hour. And we buy that, so the kids fly over the moon. I've got that detail from NASA, by the way. How fast do you have to go on a bike to go over the moon? 17,500 miles. And they land, and the spaceship lands, and ET and his little friends, earthling children,

say goodbye to Etienne, it's very sentimental. And at the end of the sequence, the ship will go up and does a whirling left turn to the flourishes of trumpets at that moment and so on. So in that 10 minutes, there's probably, in every minute of the 10, there are probably 10 sink points, okay? Maybe more, somebody's foot, bicycle going up,

something falling, whatever. Almost like a cartoon, but you don't want to hear it that way, but you want to support, at least in the style of this thing, this film. So on the day of recording, I had the orchestra and we rehearsed a piece and made a few takes and I could accomplish the first two minutes, which we could have done separately.

And I had problems in four, sinking, not the orchestra wanted to bloom out or blossom out a little bit more than the film would allow me to do. Or some concentrated action film that sped up and sped up and arrived here, so a little quicker than I wanted to get the orchestra to it. And I really couldn't get the sync the way it should be.

And I finally said to Steven, I can't seem to be able to get this right, he said, we'll turn the film off. We know where the sink points are. The music is constructed for that end. And you record the music where all the rubati, the phrasing and so on, is done for musical satisfaction, the breathing of the whole thing. And he offered to recut the film?

And he said, I will just recut the film for the track. To your music. Which is what he did. Which is crazy. And I really believe that there's a kind of a, this is not a rabbi placing himself, there's something operatic about that last 10 minutes. Yeah.

That I think without that give and take breathing of the whole orchestra, the way they wanted to, and the way the both finish here but not here, this kind of kinetic, if you like, is more satisfa... seems to be more satisfactory than a take that is slavishly in sync. Right. Yes. Yeah. Gosh.

I love that that demanded it, that that music demanded that the film be cut to it. I mean, it shows the power of the music. Has there ever been a film or a project that you've come into and you've thought, yeah, this is gonna be great, and then you realize that you were intimidated by it or you thought, you just gave an example

of a difficult situation you were in, but was there ever something that you thought, you just gave an example of a difficult situation you were in, but was there ever something that you thought like, I don't know if I have, I don't know if I can do this, particularly. The right fight for it. If I can match the power of what's on the screen with the right music. Have you ever been intimidated in that way?

He's like, no, look at me. Yes. Every film. Oh really, really? Is intimidating that way? He's like, no, look at me. Yes. Every film. Oh really, really? Is it doing that way? I could say glibly. But to reduce it a little bit, I would say The Close Encounters was,

I had that kind of feeling about it. Right of extraordinary. Somehow something about that grammar. I think it was 1977, and I had done first Star Wars and Close Encounters the same year. And it was, talk about a head turn thing, I had really struggled to get out of Star Wars and into Close Encounters.

Talk about spiritual aspects of, I mean the whole end of that film took us to a place, a high place, and the orchestra had to, it almost has a religious quality to it. Yeah, for sure. And where Star Wars is all fun and fanfare is an action and comedy and all the rest of that, but this was a more serious thought about our circumstance in the universe,

where we are and where we may be going. It deeply affected me as a young boy. Me too, it was the first film that, you know, I was young when it came out, but I saw it, and I've seen it so many times over the years, it's one of the only films that I will re-watch consistently. And it did have that, it's funny you say that. That one and the first Teletubbies, right?

And Teletubbies, obviously. And also your score for the Gilligan's Island pilot. Yes. People don't know that you wrote, that's true actually. That's a true story, JB. That was really hard. John, what portion of that iconic dun dun dun dun dun was scripted, What portion of that iconic,

dun dun dun dun dun, was scripted? And what portion of it was open to your autonomy? It's sort of like, how was that described in the script? Where did the script stop and where did you pick up? And do you remember the moment that you came up with those notes? I think the script asked for five notes, I believe. And at my first sort of attempts at that, I kept saying to Stephen, it's much easier to do seven.

But seven, five is like a doorbell, it's like a signal. Where seven notes, you just get over that thump and now you've got, when you wish upon a star, if you like, I don't know how many notes that is in the phrase, but it becomes a melody rather than a signal. So in six and seven were those big heavy, bom bom. Yes, right.

No, no, four and five. Break the glass. One, two, three, four, five. Bom bom. And then there was. Oh, da da da. That was a response. That was the response, yeah. Oh, that was such a language.

So then I took some paper, I still have the papers, and I think I wrote about, I don't know, 100 or more five note motifs in any intervallic relationship, up, down, so to speak, and no consideration of length of the notes. It isn't da-bi-bum, bum-bum. It doesn't do that.

And I kept playing them for Steve and he would come over my piano and we'd go through these things. And we both kept circling this one without deciding and finally one day in frustration, we weren't getting anywhere and he said or I said, let's just use this one, it seems fine. Yeah, fine. It seems fine. But it was scripted that the strategy of the scientists

were to communicate with the ship via five musical notes, sound. Yeah, so that must have been enormously. Intimidating. Intimidating, right? Because you're like, it's not score, it's actually language that they've written into this script and I gotta come up with what the language is.

That's right. Wow. That's true. Well, there's a lot of the conversation that we now know back and forth between this computer, Truffaut and his group and the ship's answers, was much more elaborate with color and lights. Stephen eventually correctly cut it down a little bit so it was meant more manageable. But it's a wonderful idea. I mean, there are, like Kodály, who was a Hungarian composer,

with this idea of hand signals that's almost like deaf people would hear notes. And Skriyabin, a Russian composer, who was obsessed with the idea of color, and red is a certain kind of note, or a certain texture texture and so on. So a lot of work had been done and not really very scientific work at all.

It was so primary. It was like how you would maybe elect to communicate with a child that doesn't yet know language. That's what was so powerful and evergreen and universal about it. And then when the conversation gets going and they're getting into a conversation, I mean, John, that was just magic.

How you just made that all blossom and it just became like a celebration and they all got all carried away. It's just incredible. It was all written out. I have it so on and put into a computer to produce it. But John, it's truly what Jason says is, and again, I'm sort of going back

and doubling down on this, but the idea that Jay and Sean too, that we as young men, we were still single digits, I was about eight when that, seven or eight when I came out, but I understood that in a way that was meant to be understood, in a way that my parents could, I could understand it emotionally.

What was going on? Leaving the theater with my mom in the parking lot, I said to her, I wanna be taken. And I was serious. She said, we wanted you to and they gave you back. Yeah. They wouldn't take you. I really turned.

He told me that's a friend. One thing I would say at this point is that it's probably true that music is older than language and that's deeply embedded in all of our structure and you understood it not linguistically but musically or spiritually in some way. Yeah. Yeah. We'll be right back.

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Audible.com slash smartless. Smartless is brought to you in part by Airbnb. Scotty and I had a couple of friends in recently, actually more than two, and they rented an Airbnb because we didn't have the space for them. And we went over there and it was like beautiful. It was gorgeous. And I was like, wow, I can't believe people rent their

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every single time like we're talking, we see ET or Schindler's List or Raiders of the Lost Ark or whatever it is. Star Wars, keep going, sorry. Star Wars, Star Wars, Star Wars, Star Wars 4, 5, 6, Star Wars 7, 8, 9. Evokes emotion, right? A very deep emotion.

Is there a piece of music that you've written, or another composer has written, that to this day affects you emotionally, every single time, like your music does to me and us? Oh, that's so difficult. Beethoven 9th, Ode to Joy. I start there, I guess. One thing I wanted to add about the five note signal,

which is an after the fact rationalization, but you have what is, But you have what is, re do do, do, sol, okay? Re do do, that's the tonic note. Do, again the tonic note down, and sol. Sol in music, which is the fifth degree, is an equivalent in language to a conjunctive but or and. So if I say da da da ba ba, that's not over with.

Right, right. If I do da da da ba ba, that's five one, that's six. Da da da da. So you're soliciting a response. Right. Da da da da da. Would be the end, would be a period. But what this does is da da da, oh, oh, maybe.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a, and so on. It's really interesting, yeah. You're asking for a response from the ship. It's what you remembered as a child, somehow, that you know it's not a sentence, it's part of a sentence. It's an ellipsis, yeah.

But it's not a complete sentence. I think once you realize that, there's great power in the fact that it doesn't settle. Yeah, it's a... No, that makes a lot of sense. You can almost, it's a musical version of a hand being left out. An olive branch. Reaching for someone.

Yeah, like come back to me or grab this, let's unite. It absolutely works and you don't need to think about it. It does that for us. Yeah, that came across. John, I have a question from my husband, Scotty, who is a self-proclaimed expert on just about everything you've ever composed and or recorded, it's true.

It's totally true. He says, this is from Scotty, there's been a long-standing rumor over many years that you played piano for the soundtrack recording sessions for the film version of West Side Story. Is that true? Yes. So that's you on the album playing piano? Yes. That's crazy. That is crazy. I played that in the pit a long time ago and it's really,

really hard. Yeah, it is. Especially the prologue is just all over the place. Especially at a dinner theater it was tough because you got mashed potatoes thrown at you. Wait, John, it is true. I think a lot of Lenny's music was awkward, frankly. You've played it so you know why and how that is said.

But it's a lot of part of the animated energy that he left in his music. Yeah, yeah, for sure. John, when you first started, first of all, you grew up in, tell me where you grew up again, Brooklyn? We're in Queens, Long Island. Queens, Queens, Queens. And then when you studied jazz as a kid,

did you always know that, like when did the love of film composing come in? Like did you always want to do that or were you happy being a musician on Broadway and theaters and gigs? I never frankly planned to develop as a film composer at all. My father was, one of the things that he did in his professional life as a musician,

was to play in Hollywood studio orchestras. And so as a teenager, and I was a serious piano student, I really wanted to be a concert pianist. He took me to recording sessions in the studio, and I became fascinated by what people were doing to score the films, how it was orchestrated, written, and so on. Wow. And eventually, how it was orchestrated, written and so on. Wow.

And eventually, my job was playing piano in those orchestras. You mentioned that I played in Western Story. I also played way back, Some Like It Hot. Do you remember that? Yeah. That was you playing in the movie? Yes, I played on that.

And the apartment, do you remember the apartment? Yes, yes. Yeah that. And the apartment, do you remember the apartment? Yes, yes. Sure. Yeah, Promises, Promises is based on the apartment. And Fred Astaire and Audrey Hepburn in Funny Face. So my introduction to writing for film was through the influence of older colleagues for whom I played the piano. And they said, can you orchestrate?

And I said, yes, well, here's a piece for next Tuesday, orchestrate this for me, which I did. And then just at that point in my development, television became very, very popular. And I did a lot of television, Alcoa Theater and Chrysler Theater, and all those things. And as Will said, Gilligan's Island, it's crazy that you wrote music for that. And were you happy to move away from television and the Kola Theater and Chrysler Theater. Yeah, and as Will said, Gilligan's Island.

It's crazy that you wrote music for that. And were you happy to move away from television again? Or did you like that? Must be such a faster process, of course. Time-wise must have been. Oh, it was such a slow, unplanned process, I must say. Really? Moving from television to feature films.

I think at that time in my life, it was wonderful because I had so much more time to work on the feature film. Television show, if you did Alcoa Theater, for example, it was an hour show, which you would have to write it within a week, 25 minutes of music or so, orchestrate it and conduct it. And so that was hard.

To do a feature film, may have 25 or 30 minutes of music, but you have six weeks to do it, or a higher fee, a better orchestra and so forth. So it was a gradual step up that was evolutionary rather than anything planned. And is it true you can play six instruments? I read piano, bassoon, clarinet, cello,

trombone and trumpet, is that right? It's incorrect on all counts. Thank you. I tried to play all of them. I spent time with piano, of course. One of the things I love so much about listening to classical music is that it is the closest thing we have to a time machine

because reading that music, playing that music note for note verbatim is exactly how they heard it, save the conductor adjusting time or pacing or whatever, is exactly what they heard 200, 300, 400, 500 years ago. And those were their rock concerts. That was, and so when you're sitting there, you're listening to one of these orchestras play these,

one of these pieces of music, it's as close to the exact experience people in the past had in anything we can do, I think. It's a very unifying thing. One of the things that draws our humanity, conceals it. I think what you say about listening presents something very hopeful, I think, about music. We've mentioned before that it's not language,

it's something general. It may be in the end that Bernstein was right that it is international, it goes beyond language. We're talking about the divisions of the Oxford and Fifth and the Fifth being the conjunctive. It's something that I think we can place a little hope in, that it's something we all may share at an intellectual level that isn't particularly linguistic. Is there a piece of music that you've written, and now I'm gonna get into the sort of regrets,

do you have something that you've listened to and you go, I wish I had just done it like this, like that you've driven home from recording, you know, you've just scored a thing that we all are really familiar with, but when you were driving home, you thought, I wish I had done it a little bit differently. Do you have any regrets in that way?

Yeah, because as actors, we do that all the time. Yeah, we do it all the time. I wish I had done this scene. Oh, you know, sometimes you drive home and you get into your driver and you go, oh, that's what the scene was about. When you see it finally. Or when you see it finally up on the screen.

Yeah, we all do it. We all do that. It's absolutely, wish that could be better, or a change of note or phrase or whatever timing. Absolutely. You know, John, we didn't even touch on your time in the military, the US Air Force. Nor have we touched on golf.

Or golf, yes, but really quick. So many of your themes, especially Raiders and Superman and the Darth Vader theme, they're all very militaristic. They're very March, they feel like they, is that inspired by your time in the military or is that just what was required for the film? I think probably the latter, what was required at the moment.

Although one of the things that I did have wonderful opportunity in service to orchestrate for military band, because there were not a lot of publications for that instrumental combination available beyond Sousa and a few other earlier lights. Were they any good, those bands? Oh yes, well presently, our military bands, Marines and Army in Washington are superb.

Superb, yeah. The Marine Band in Washington, there's a brass section that is equivalent to the Chicago Symphony. I mean, it's not an exaggeration to say. Wow, wow, that's cool. It's absolutely fantastic. Our principal trumpet, Tom Hooten in LA Philharmonic

is the former Marine trumpeter. He did, I don't know, two or three years in the Marine band there, and then came here and auditioned and won Los Angeles Philharmonic. So it's been a big tradition in our country, band to band tradition. Tell me about this wonderful routine you have at our, where Will and I are also at the same golf course

that you play at and we will see you almost every day about four or five o'clock, you'll take the cart down to the bottom of the hill in the first hole, you'll park it and then you will walk the rest of the hole, play your ball out. Do you go onto the second hole, or is that enough, and is it just a sort of a meditative, wonderful routine? Because it's just-

We're not stalking you, but we have seen you. Oh, it's always such a thrill. Everybody always stops and says, hey, look, there he is. I've been going off there for, I don't know, close to 50 years. You would never know it by the way I play. I never did play well, it's gotten worse over the years. You work too hard.

But I sit all day at the piano from early in the morning, lunch, just to keep working. So I had to keep this old bag of bones moving, I have to walk. And I'm living very close to the course, so I can go up there and walk for an hour. I try to walk for an hour, so that could be holes one, two, three, and four,

or one, two, six, and seven, depending on the traffic and so on. That's good. And I get a cart so that I can stay out of the way of people like you guys who can really play. Well, and that first hill's kind of a bear. But you're always alone, which I love, because I'm a bit of an alone guy myself.

Is that on purpose, or is that just because you don't want to schedule around anybody else? It's very relaxing. You don't have to entertain anybody or be entertained. I can mull and meditate things flashing through my mind. But you gotta know that we play, Jason plays with people all the time and he never entertains them.

Yeah, very consistent. It's, yeah, that's possible. And also, any golf course, such a piece of beautiful work, particularly when there's nobody on it. You can see the contours of this glorious green. It's a big park. It's a beautiful invention. Greatest possible luxury in a crowded urban area.

It's incredible. I've gotten quite, I've been doing it two, I think I've told you this, JB, I'll go sometimes on a Sunday afternoon by myself and then just strap my bag on and just walk by myself and play nine holes at sort of three, four o'clock. It's my favorite, yeah, it's my favorite thing to do. Yeah, it's just so good.

Great recreation. Next time we see you out there, fair warning, I'm gonna run up and give you a handshake, a hug, or a tip of the cap or something. Oh, great, love it. Yeah. John, thank you for being here today. Thank you so much.

You know, this is like one of my, you're such a massive inspiration This is like one of my, you're such a massive inspiration to me as a pianist, as a wannabe composer in my early 20s to everything you've ever done. And you know, I always say I want to retire when I'm 60 and then I start looking at your resume and I get a second wind.

Because I'm just like, it's just unbelievable. Think about all the incredible work we wouldn't have had he stopped at 60. Yeah, it's- It should be noted, John, and Sean might not say this because he's embarrassed, but there have been, in the 20 plus years that I've been friends with Sean, there have been too many times to remember

the times that he's referenced, mentioned you, referenced your music, referenced what you've done. It's absolutely incredible. And I know it's such a thrill for him that you're here. And for us as well. I guarantee you he's 10 seconds away from tears. Yeah, he truly is. I'm gonna hold it in.

You've had a real impact on this young man's life. Yeah, you have. And mine as well. And Scott has too. You have created my love of classical music because of what you've done for. But not mine. Not true.

Not true. That was my entry point to it, was just being such an incredible fan of movies and focusing on the music and what that does and then discovering classical music and I listen to it all day every day. There'll never be another one like you ever. Well, thank you, Jess, so much for this.

I've enjoyed it, all three of you. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. Don't even possibly think of 60 as an age to retire. No, no, I'm just throwing it out there. That's a teenager. Yeah. No, thank you, John. You guys have got years and years of productive work.

From your lips. And enriching everybody. You do, absolutely do. Enjoy. It's there. You have it. Thank you so much, guys. All right, pal.

Great, great pleasure. Thank you, John. Love you to pieces. What a thrill. Thank you. Bye. That's how appropriate was that remark. Yeah, so listen, right as we were signing off,

he said to his assistant, he said, huh, so that was a pod. So he's now been, had an experience. Legend. Yeah, yeah. What I mean. He's just a legend. I'm really taken with that interview. I could have asked him so many things.

I know. You know, like, do you know that Steven Spielberg played clarinet on Jaws, but he played it so bad that they put the sound into the local marching band, because Steven, it wasn't great. So it's actually Steven playing, and it's some kid faking it in the movie. So funny.

And then Steven played clarinet in 1941, the movie 1941, is that the movie? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So funny. And then Stephen played clarinet in 1941, the movie 1941. Is that the movie? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, and his son was the lead singer of Toto. Like we didn't even get to that. Who?

His son. John Williams' son is the lead singer in Toto? Yeah. What? Oh shit. Yeah, swear to God. Why didn't you bring that up? Joseph, you always talk about your pocket.

You always talk about your pocket. I got 80 million questions I wanna ask. Why did you ask fucking one? I did, but I didn't want, we didn't get into his family. So I had. You got 80 million questions. wanna ask. Why'd you ask fucking one? We didn't get into his family. So I, and I wanted it to make it about him and you know, but I guess that is about him. That's his son. That's insane.

That's pretty cool. Yeah. Oh my God, you're right. He's kinda got the eye of the tiger. I can see that. His son. That's not Toto. Is it?

Eye of the tiger, no. Toto's Africa. Well, who did Eye of the Tiger? Survivor. Survivor, yeah. of the Tiger, no. Toto's Africa. Well who did Eye of the Tiger? Survivor. Survivor, yeah. Really? Yeah, yeah. Guys, I've gotta go, but.

All right. Okay. I don't think he ever, in Jaws, I don't think he ever scored the moment when Jaws actually took a bite out of anybody, did he? Bite! Wow, you really have to go. I really do, really.

I love you both. Bite! And we'll see you next week on Smartless. Nobody wanted to say anything about my restraint. I had so many bits in there. We were talking about the Marines and their horn section. I was gonna say, Sean, you blew a Marine. All of them.

And I never said it. Listener, please go to Smartless Extras for all of Will's bits from this week. I had so many that I didn said it. Listener, please go to Smartless Extras for all of Will's bits from this week. I had so many that I didn't do. You can only find an organ in a church. None of it. I didn't say any of it. Good for you.

Love to love. Love goodbye. Bye bye. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Love goodbye. Bye bye. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smart.

Less. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smart.

Less. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. Smart.

Less. Smart. Less. Smart. Less. SmartLess SmartLess SmartLess If you like SmartLess, you can listen early and add free right now by joining Wondry Plus in the Wondry app or on Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondry.com slash survey. Nancy's love story could have been ripped right out of the pages of one of her own novels. She was a romance mystery writer who happens to be married to a chef.

But this story didn't end with a happily ever after. When I stepped into the kitchen, I could see that Chef Brophy was on the ground and I heard somebody say, call 911. As writers, we'd written our share of murder mysteries. So when suspicion turned to Dan's wife, Nancy, we weren't that surprised. The first person they look at would be the spouse. We understand that's usually the way they do it.

But we began to wonder, had Nancy gotten so wrapped up in her own novels, There are murders in all of the books. that she was playing them out in real life? Follow Happily Never After, Dan and Nancy on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of Happily Never After, Dan and Nancy, early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.