SmartLess - "Jon Bernthal"

Episode Date: June 8, 2026

Retrieve your catcher’s glove— we caught Jon Bernthal. Deal with the judgement and all that shit later, control the burn on a 3-wick candle, hit every wall you can hit, and how to steal a turkey sandwich. Communication… what? It’s an all-new SmartLess. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of SmartLess ad-free and a whole week early. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, happy smartless. We're going to smartless the hell out of this. We're going to really podcast it up today. I hope you're ready. Put your helmet on. Clean your ears because it's coming in. Welcome to smartless. Late afternoon, late afternoon podcast.

Well, let's just start up saying, happy birthday to Will. Hey, happy birthday, Will. Oh, my goodness. It's so crazy on my birthday today. This finally, I was finally able to shit this out. I had this. Lucky horseshoe? This horseshoe up my ass the whole time.

That explains a lot in your life. Yeah. Now what happens now that it's out of your ass? Does that mean it's all downhill? No, I'm going to put it right back where it came from. I mean, the horse is still up there. Shawnee. Will?

Your little devil. Did you get anything enjoyable for your birthday? Did your boys take good care of you? What happened? I got a nice. I got a nice candle from J.B. and Amanda. Oh, that's nice. With a beautiful card.

I could tell. I could tell by the candle that J.B. had picked it. Yeah, exactly. You know me. I like my candles and my soaps. And that candle right there from Jenny Kane is just about the tip is topiest. It's a two-wick candle. You know, three-wick, you can't really control the burn.

You know, you're going to have a side that doesn't really keep up with the other side. You're going to get a weak side. You're going to get a weak side on a three-week burn. The wax is going to flood the other one and then you're screwed. But with a two-wick-wit. It's a metaphor for us. I'm a two-wick-burn kind of guy. Yeah, sure.

So I got that. I got a nice sort of self-care thing from Shawnee, a little gifts or tiff. Are you going to, now don't, a lot of people just like. A G-s or tiff. They let the treatments expire. You know, they forget they've got them. No, not this one.

You've got to get in there. By the way, I had to take out a loan for this one. Yeah. Oh. Huh, you once gave me a self-care thing and it was quite panic. Oh, is it the same? No. No, this is a new one.

I'll get you with, I'll get you this one too, Jay. You damn right, you will. This is tough. We can't even go broadcast on this one. It's so. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She just comes right over to the house and, um.

No, but you will, let me just say you will not complain. I will not what? Complain. Well, that's not true. No? We never know about you. Yeah, you know I like to squeak. He's a real squeaky wheel.

And then, Danny and Doddy D's gave me some nice books. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. That you're going to read. One said you. Now, do your boys panic about what to get the guy who's got it all? Or do they know what they're doing? No, I tell them not to get me anything.

I just want to hang out. So I got to have them. I'm the same. Yeah, because I don't want people stressing about buying me something. I don't want anything. I know, but people like to do it. I mean, we have this conversation. ad nausea.

Right, but as long as you say no gifts, please, then at least it takes the pressure off. Yeah. Yeah, but I always ignore that. I don't know, I learned at such an early age, you always show up with, even if you just go over somebody's house to visit, you always show up with something.

Yeah. Uh-oh, you guys still there? Well, yeah, I'm just thinking about all the sweet treats you've always brought over. You know, you're never without at least a cookie. Right. Either for myself or for others. Yep.

Uh-huh. Yeah. I brought you this. Don't touch it. Yeah. We had a great cake last night. Oh, my God, that cake. I saw the photo.

I was waiting for the guy to come out to say, do you want another piece? I know, I know. Like, nobody came out for a second piece. The guy. They only cut up half of it. Waiting for the guy. Were you waiting for Jen to say,

can you have another piece? Yeah, or somebody. I was like... Did they know? No, what type of cake was it? It wasn't the Rice Krispy one I was it? No, no. It was a classic, it was a classic Duncan Hines...

yellow cake with chocolate frosting. But done in the way, it was box worthy. Did you bring your own hot fudge, you fucking shit pig? No, it's not. That's your move. By the way, last year of my birthday, you remember, and I brought some kind of like better scour or something, and for the Sundays.

To the restaurants. To the restaurant. Where do you think this bit's coming from? To Tower Bar. And so then everybody's giving me shit, and then Camel is giving me so much shit. And then the ice cream comes out, and everybody's like, hey, can you pass that?

Hey, can you pass that? No, it was caramel. Carmel. Everybody used it, J. It was hilarious. Now, last night, when you had that... First of all, what flavor is yellow? Vanilla.

Is it just vanilla? Yeah, it's a rich vanilla. All right, fine. Like a French vanilla is usually kind of yellow. Is it an angel food? Is that what it is? I don't know what it is. What did you call me?

Angel. But it was fun. You were missed, J.B. It was really fun. Yeah, J.B., you were missed. You were missed. I miss being there, damn. And it was cool.

We got the kids involved. MAPE and Nable. That was the best thing in the night. Will starting to throw... We'll start to throw... We're talking about everything that's going on in the world. No, what's going on in the world? And I said, you know what?

And the kids were at the end. Arts wasn't feeling well, but Ava and Maper were there. And I said, what do you guys think about what we're talking about and all this stuff that's going on and what all the grown-ups are talking about right now in the world? And are you guys stressed and blah, blah, blah.

And they each... And I say, open up the straight. Isn't that what Maple said? Let's just open the straight. Just let the oil flow. Yeah. Dude, they both gave... really good thoughtful answers that were really represented with it yeah it was so interesting to listen

to them yeah it was wild to it was wild to look over to both of them who have known since they were you know tiny yeah and have these incredible you know it was dope yeah incredible opinions thoughtful you know thoughts they're both very bright yeah they really are uh tell you who's tell you who's I tell you who's bright is our guest. I am excited for our guest today, man. This is, yeah, this is a dude that I have been such a fan of for a long, long time. And he's done. His number of credits are insane.

Sean, you're going to like this, okay? He studied at the prestigious Moscow Arts Theater in Russia, okay? And then he went, I'm pretty sure he went to Harvard and got a master of fine arts or he did something like in there. He's like studied like crazy theater has done a ton of theater. He's currently in the show in Broadway,

and I want to say the title of the show because you're going to know who it is immediately. He's done... Adrian Brodie. Countless... Countless great performances in Wolf of Wall Street. He was added as a small part in Sicario, baby driver, Winn River,

and they had great parts in Ford versus Ferrari, King Richard. You also know him as the Punisher. He's going to be in The Odyssey, who's the accountant. accountant two. He's been in, I got to know him by watching him on The Walking Dead, but I loved him in this series. We Own the City, guys. It's John Bernthal. Yeah. The great. Oh my gosh. I kind of got it. The great.

Hell. Wow. Wow. Hey, buddy. John, what a thrill, man. I'm such a fan, dude. I'm such a fan of what you do. Man, this is so cool. That's so cool. You just say a happy birthday, Will. And I have to just. Sing it, John. Sing it. Man, I would sing it, but I'm trying to cheat. I'm trying to, I'm trying to, you know, save my voice for Broadway right now. Holy fuck. Yeah. But Will, man, I just, I want to tell you how much I just was blown away by, by your film, man. Oh, yeah.

Like, just such a beautiful dive into, yeah, but just like about fatherhood and being a husband and being an artist and like re-falling in love with your wife. And it just like, I don't know, it was one of those things where, you know, like I found it on like the perfect day and the perfect time. And it just filled me with so much. It really was your performance. It was just so I reached out to Bradley about it as well, but it was just such a human, gorgeous, deep, felt performance. And it was awesome, man. Thank you, man.

Thank you very kindly. Thank you, dude. And I know you mentioned that you're saving your voice. John is currently, as you guys know, in Dog Day Afternoon on Broadway. Big hit. With my good buddy, Johnny O is in that, too. Oh, yeah, the best. The best.

Johnny O. And, I mean, how's that going, man? How's the play going? I mean, it's a hit, as Sean said. I mean, look, it's been, it's so cool that folks are coming to the theater that don't normally come to the theater. I love seeing that. It's so many people that we see outside say it's the first time, not just that they've ever been on Broadway, but that they're coming to the theater. Like buses are coming in from Staten Island, which is so great.

And, yeah, I mean, not to be a total cheese dick, but I did. I kind of, this thing, you know, sort of saved my life. And I kind of came about it in Russia. That's really where I figured this, you know, that's really where my formative years were. And, you know, theater there is very vital. And it's for everybody. It's not this sort of exclusive thing for the gentry. It's for everybody.

And it's a part of everyday life. And it's enormously important to folks. So it's really cool. I think that this is just sort of expanding the theater audience. It's been a thrill. It's been a thrill to see how much people dig it. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, you mentioned it, I mentioned, too, that you don't, that you, that you, that

you studied in Russia, and I'm kind of so interested because you grew up in Maryland, which I want to get, we're going to come back to Maryland because we're going to come back to, we own this city because, dude. Okay. But you ended up studying theater in Russia. I'm like, how, walk us through how that happened, man, because that's extraordinary. It seems like, well, yeah, and what time was that about what year was that? So I lived in Russia from 1990.

to I guess 2001 and and and honestly I mean it's something you know I went to school to play sports I played football and baseball and played baseball in in college and um but I was getting in all kinds of trouble and really if there was if there was a dead end to walk down I was walking down and just running into every kind of wall and um you know I really sort of found theater on on an accident I was just an idiot and I signed up for a class and I thought I was taking the class with 600 kids in it and sitting in the back of the theater watching movies, but me being the kind of asshole that I was, I signed up for the, you know, the intro to theater class, which was just 10 people, took it very seriously.

You thought it was like a movie theater? I totally did, man. That's what I heard. All the athletes were like, you have to take an art requirement, and I had no idea. And, you know, I've told this story before, but the first assignment was to bring in something that was deeply important to you and to share it with the class. and I had never seen such weird. I'd never experienced something,

this sort of insane of these grown people talking about an object that that was so important to them and emoting and breaking down. I'd never really been around theater people before and slowly but surely it came to my turn and I didn't bring anything. I didn't have anything because I was such a donkey. And, you know, but I was going to fall baseball practice right after

and I had my catchers club with me. So I just launched into it. to this story about how my mother had given me this baseball glove on her deathbed. And my mom's like alive and well in D.C., but I launched into this story and I'm crying my eyes out. And everyone in the room is crying their eyes out. I'm like, no, no, no, wait, wait, wait. I'm doing the acting, you know?

And like, snop was coming out of my, I was just so upset because I got lost in the story. And so this wonderful woman, Alma Becker, who my first theater teacher ended up marrying my wife and I. she kicked everybody out of that class and she just ripped my ass for violating the sanctity of her studio. But she's like, you know, you got something. And my punishment was to audition for the play.

And I got into it and I did the play. And she was the one when I wound up getting in a little bit of trouble and I couldn't finish school. You know, I said, look, this is something I really wanted to do. And I had no idea sort of what the pathway was. And she said, look, there is none. But if I were you, I would try to get into the Moscow Art Theater. and go study over there.

That's amazing. Yeah, to save my life. I mean, and being in Russia. Yeah, but what part of that for, I mean, I'll show my ignorance here because I'll bet the Moscow. Again? Yeah, that school is a clear pathway to stuff. But what you didn't know that, why would you think that that would be, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I'll go to Moscow to figure out how to break into, you know,

New York or Hollywood. Yeah, I wasn't really thinking about kind of, you know, breaking in wasn't really even in the, you know, like staying out of trouble and just just finding this thing. And really just this sort of blind faith I had in this wonderful woman. And it's just such a testament to how beautiful a teacher, you know, the role that they can have in a young person's life. And it's just astounding.

She saved my life. And I, and it's really cool being here in New York and being on Broadway because I do feel so much of, I'm very, I feel like I'm very in touch with that 18 year old kid, with that kid who found this thing and would have never believed in a million years, you would have the opportunity to go out there, you know, in front of this kind of audience every day. And Alma is very much with me. You know, we lost her a few years back way too young. But I think I just had blind faith in her, and it wasn't really a pathway to New York.

I didn't know what an agent was. But it was that school, that place. Wow. Did you lie? I mean, like, I'm an idiot. Like, my perception of going to Russia now, I would never step foot in Russia just because of the, you know, I watched the news. You might not come back.

I might not come back. What was it like for you then? And what is it? And would you ever go back? Oh, I would love to go back. This was, what, 15, 20 years ago? Yeah, I mean, now you can't. It was 99.

So, you know, that's when I first went. I mean, it was a wild time. You know, people referred to it as the Wild West there, you know. There were shootings at the Duma, which is like their Senate. You know, the Chechens were blowing up apartment buildings in town. Wow. It was completely wild. People were really, it was still at the beginning of this.

And you're like, and I have a curtain at 8 p.m. people. I got to get through the streets. Yeah. But I do think, you know, for me, you know, a few things at play. I mean, I think I sort of considered myself at the time. You know, I was a boxer. I was sort of a, you know, considered myself a street smart kind of guy. So to kind of go into a world where not just it's a different alphabet,

they speak a different language, but it was just so wildly different than anything that I ever saw. And I will say I encountered, you know, real brutality. There's a real brutality on the streets that at that time was sort of impossible. It will find you one way or the other, but also mixed with this unbelievable, just profound beauty and this reverence for the arts. You know, there's a statue on every corner of a,

a playwright or a poet or an actor. And honestly, at that time in my life, you know, I don't know that I would have, you know, responded, you know, really to American theater training. You know, to be an actor in Russia was such a revered thing. And it was a very, for lack of a better word, it was a very masculine thing to do. And do you think, John, sort of coming from your background then,

like, going to a place that had that, that was like, it's almost like in your face arts in a way. I mean, reverential and also like appreciation, but so, you know, that it was so sort of startling in that way, and it was so in your face, do you think that that actually kind of woke you up to it in a way that you might not have been appreciated here in America? Do you know what I mean by that?

I do. I mean, look, I think for me personally, and again, I know it sounds maybe, you know, apologies, it sounds maybe grandiose, but I really do feel like it saved my life. I was getting in so much trouble, and my life just was making no sense, and I just... And it gave you structure. It gave me structure, gave me something to believe in,

connected me with something spiritual. And then when I went over there, and my teachers were all folks who kind of came up in a system where public gathering was outlawed. So for them to do plays, they were doing plays in subway tunnels and abandoned buildings.

And had they been caught, both the audience and the folks on stage would have been sent away, sent to prison, but it was so vital to them that they had to do it anyway. It was religious for them. And so for my teachers to be those kinds of people, You know, they're, you know, I mean...

It makes me think, like, Sean, you're like, Hey, any fun theater stories? Like, yeah, I once got shot in the head for doing a monologue. Yeah, John, sometimes I'll ask people who are in the theater on the show. I'm like, do you have like a staple, hilarious, like something gone wrong?

You ever forget your lines? Yeah. Like theater story, you know, like a classic, something went wrong. So, but I can't imagine, yeah. Some of the words of Russia must be insane. Wait, John, what was it? I'm sorry, Jason, I just want to, we're in the theater here for a second, Jason, this is, because it involves you.

You're on Broadway right now. You're doing the show. The show's over. Do you have people come backstage? Go ahead, Jason. Jason has this. Do you want people backstage when you're done with the show? He's obsessed with the rules of people going backstage.

Because I hear if you don't go back, you're being rude. And I figure if you go back, you're being presumptuous that likes, you know, hey, you're famous, I'm famous. We don't know each other, but you probably want to say hi, you know. Oh, man. How do you answer this without getting in trouble? I don't know. We've asked everybody, don't worry. No, no, look, you know, it's such a weird thing

because I don't want to know who's there, and I feel like there's always a way that the information kind of sneaks through. I mean, Evan and I have done a thing. There's a guest list. So almost every night, Evan and I, you know, I think last night we said Barack Obama was there the night before.

I think we said, we always make shit up just to make everybody out. But I don't know. You know, it's a very, I really appreciate when folks come back and it's not an awkward. You know, it's really, it's really, it's like a hotbed of awkwardness, I feel like a lot of times. Even when people are, they're clearly moved, it clearly was, but you know, you're so tired and you're in a weird sort of state. Yeah, and that's just it. You're kind of obligated to make them feel comfortable because it's your house, you know.

You're back there in your dress. And they're obligated to make you feel. feel that they loved it. You know? Right. Jason, Jason, do you think that there's a world now? Like next week, if you're in New York, you go and you see, which you should go see, I want to come and see, Dog Day.

I can't wait to see it? Jason, can you now, having had this conversation with John, do you find that you could, you could show up next week? But only because we've had this conversation, so that when we see each other, it's not going to be awkward and we'll give each other that little look. Like, I would want you to do exactly what you want to do. Like, if you wanted to come back, I would want you to come back. but if you didn't, I would want you to feel so totally good about that.

He's nerd. He's just going out and enjoy your night, you know. He's so nerd. I just assume people want to get home, you know. We'll be right back. And now, back to the show. John, do you do the, any kind of warm-up stuff with your voice? I mean, do you even think about where you place your voice

and how you support it so you can do eight shows a week and all that? Because you do, if you don't know how to do it, you do tend to, people tend to lose their voices pretty quickly. Yeah, no, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, a battle and and that that was the thing everybody said going in and i i i know sean you know it's so well it's it's it's uh you know it's just it's like physically that that's one thing i sort of feel like i always have in in in the bag you know like the physical thing you're not going to exhaust me that way this is fucking exhausting i mean this is unlike anything i've ever done

yeah but you know the um i you'll if you if you do see it you know i speak in a much higher register when i when i do the show um and i think that that helps but yeah i definitely warm up. And, you know, Kate Wilson's working with us, and she's incredible. You know, she's like one of one. I just did this show a few weeks ago called The Unknown. And in it, every single night for seven shows a week,

the open, on page one, there's this stalker stalking me outside of the house. And I would do the same movement every single time. I would go up on the ball of my foot, right? I would go on the ball of my foot looking like I'm looking for the stalker outside of the house. Look at this. No. Oh, no. I have a boot on.

I have a boot on because of the play. You didn't hear about boots? Boots is... Yeah, boots is back. Because of this repetitive, right? The repetitive movements that you do every single day. So don't you... Is any part of your body just like feeling that?

Any kind of like physical whatever? Can I answer this for you, John? You see, John doesn't mainline fucking ding-dongs. Yeah, and tuna fish sandwiches. He's not like acting like a person who needs to be cut out of their house. You know what I mean? His calf. His calf can withstand a little press every month.

Yeah, because he's getting over 1,100 steps a day, okay? I will say I try to box or go to the gym every day, and I do think it really does help that you're doing something. For Tracy and Sean, the gym is a thing. It's spelled GYM. Oh, okay, got it. Now, Jim. Hey, John, what was, without prying too much into your history

and your flavor of trouble that you like to get into? What was it that you found about the theater that was a bit of... Oh, Jay, I thought you were going to say, like, what was your favorite kind of Coke? Because I prefer Colombian. Because I don't mind a speedy brand every once in a whatnot. What was, like, what did you find theater did for you that alleviated some of that, the cause?

I found that the exact same energy that I tapped into when I was young and sort of my way of, you know, my best friends on the planet are still the guys that I grew up with. They're my best friends. And I think that we were wild kids. And we, we, and I think our way of honestly telling each other that we loved each other was, taking crazy risks together and doing things that we shouldn't have done. And I felt that for me, the very same thing, the reckless abandonment and the... I'll say like the violence,

the like let's just throw it all away. Like whatever this is, we're fucking going. Finding that, but using it, tapping into that same thing. But it wasn't landing me in jail. It wasn't landing me in trouble or getting kicked out of schools. It was actually bringing joy to people and making me find different parts of myself that I knew how to sort of access really well,

but it was, I mean, again, without sounding like a cheese dick, it was using it for good. And it did, it saved my life. Yeah. I mentioned Walking Dead. That was the first time that I feel like I remember seeing you on a regular basis in something. And I was like, I remember watching that show and thinking,

who fuck is this dude? He's so locked in. so dialed like this dude is he's got something was that was that a thing was that a major turning point do you think in your professional career walking dead yeah absolutely

absolutely and and just in my life in general at that point you know I got married right after season one to to my wife who I met the day I got home from Russia she's a she was an ICU trauma nurse we grew up together she's seen

the worst of me hopefully the best of me. But, you know, she's, she's my whole life. And had my first child in the beginning of season two surrounded by people who had young families, you know, doing this work. And the work still meant so much to them. And they were just family and work.

And, but yeah, I think with Frank Deribont and that show, you know, it, none of us in a million years thought it was going to be kind of the juggernaut thing that it was. There was such humility to it. and people believed in it so much. And it's funny because if you put six or seven people out in the woods and you say, okay, there's zombies out there, if one person isn't going 100% towards that fucking truth, it's like everything else is bullshit.

So the show was just such kind of total commitment right from the beginning. And yeah, I was just so grateful to Frank and so grateful to be a part of that show. Yeah, it was definitely life-changing. Yeah, I imagine. It's funny you say that. Yeah, like everybody's got to... That show had such a great ability

to keep the tension so taught at all times. Like, you were just like always on the edge of your seat. And you're right. You imagine if you had one guy just kind of dialing it in the frame. Yeah, phoning it in. You know what I mean?

They're like, I think I doesn't see that worried about what's going on. Yeah, right. Exactly. Hey, John, what did... Talk about the sort of that transition from how acting sort of... of serving you in one respect early on.

And then as sort of your demons, you started to get some distance from your demons a bit. And it's really starting to fall in love with the acting and the talent you were recognizing in yourself. And you started to shape some technique, I would imagine. And talk about that transition into, well, wait a second. I'm no longer kind of that guy.

I'm kind of really becoming more this part of myself. And this could actually become a, career, an occupation, and I'm kind of decent at this. And, and, like, was there a point where you realize, oh, wait, I'm kind of, I'm kind of all in on this now. And I don't really know how to do anything else. And I like that. And this, this is going to be it. Let's, let's really become this guy. And was there that moment? Or did it just kind of happen naturally as jobs kind of progressed? And and now you look back and you go, wow, now I am this. Well, look, I mean, I think that there's something,

I don't know if you guys feel it being, you know, with everything you guys have done and who you are, but for me, I know the healthiest relationship that I can have with this thing is to, just to be hungry and to not really be at any place of arrival. And what I love about it's the same thing. thing I love about being a dad is that the only thing that's for certain is you're going to fucking fail. You know, like, you're going to mess up and you got to like, you got to,

you got to own it and you, and you got to acknowledge it and you got to work through it. And each one of those mess ups and each one of those failings is such an unbelievable opportunity for connection and teaching and growing together for both you and your kid. And I feel so, I feel like it's the exact same with what we do. And I'm, again, I'm just like, very, very grateful that I get to do something that I can always just, I'm always chasing and trying to get better at. And I will say at the time, yeah, for sure. And like right now, like, doing this play, like, to be this at this age and at this point

at my life can still be terrified. It's such a thrill, you know? It's dope. Yeah, for sure. It's very cool. That's why you do it, yeah. Yeah, but I will say for me, luckily, things started to kind of work out for me at the exact same time that I started a family. And I will say it's just, for me, my life has become

really, really simple and clear. It's them and it's this. And I'm very happy with that. That's not a coincidence, by the way. That's not a coincidence. I think we all know, like, for me, I had the similar experiences. Having kids has cracked me open in a way that it's allowed me to be open to all sorts of things. And so I always believe that those kinds of things go hand in hand. And, you know, it's funny. You were saying this thing about, you know, you're going to make mistakes.

And I always think about, I remember watching this documentary about this soccer team, but the coach, this very famous coach, Jose Marino. We were talking to the team, the team kind of got down on themselves, and they were down at halftime.

And it comes in, they filmed his speech to the team, and he was like, you guys are acting like, every time there's a mistake or the other team gets a goal or whatever, it's the end of the world. And he's like,

the other team is going to score. Right. You're going to make mistakes. they're going to get a goal because they're trying to do the same thing you are. But the trick is, what do you do? How do you cope with it?

That's the thing. And I always stuck with me. And I sort of apply it. I don't know about you guys. I think about that shit all the time in my life when stuff doesn't go exactly my way. I go, yeah, shit's not going to always go your way. Okay.

I can't fall apart when it doesn't. I got to go, okay, now what? What can I do now? You know what I mean? Yeah. And sometimes things go, you know, just the sort of proximity to, you know, real tragedy and real failure. And, you know, these things, sometimes life hands you such a kick in the ass that will change your entire perspective. But also, you know, there's real tragedy that I think comes part and parcel with it.

But sometimes you just get close to it. Sometimes it's just a reawakening or you get close to something or you think maybe somebody's sick and they're not. and and and and and I just I feel like it is it is so true that with each you know sort of failing or fall or tragedy

there offers such an opportunity and I do think you know primarily the job is now to to be a parent and you got to hold it together and you got to show them the different lenses that

you know that that that just changing your perspective how much can be gained by that I'm able to luckily I'm able to show my kids a lot of failure, so it's good. There you. I'm very open with them. Me too. How old are the kids, John? I have a 14-year-old, a 12-year-old, a 10-year-old,

and then my little four-year-old niece has come to live with us the last few years, too. Oh, wow. Are any of them showing any interest in what you do? Oh, gosh, no, man. No, no, no. I mean, I might... Have they come to see the play? Yeah, they've come to see the play, and they're coming again this weekend,

but my kids are all, you know, they're very into sports, and the outdoors and, you know, and it's, you know, they have very full and beautiful hearts, each one of them. And each one of them is so, you know, such an individual. You know, it's there for them, I think, if they'd ever want it. But I think right now, what I do is not too cool to them. How do you, because I think about this for myself with you, I've got two girls, 19 and 14.

And, you know, I haven't had a perfectly straight line towards where I'm at, you know, emotionally or otherwise. You know, I didn't do, you know, the perfect thing all the time. But I like where I've landed. And I don't think I would have landed in this spot had I not banged into a couple of walls. And so as I see my girls growing up and, you know, when, you know, when they go through things that are not sheltered, I start to think, well, how would I react if they make a wrong choice? You know, and because, like, I don't want to be hypocritical.

I like the way my adversity has sort of shaped me. And so I battle with that as a parent. You know, you want your kids to have a pristine, you know, travel. So how, you know, like, I'm sure your kids are, they've got half. By pristine, do you mean, like, protected? Like, you want them to? Well, no. but I mean, I think it's just a natural instinct.

You don't want your kid to ever make a mistake. You don't want anything to yet. Right. So I just, I wonder if my kids ever started to experiment with some of the risks that I went through, I wouldn't want to be, I wouldn't encourage them to do that, but I certainly wouldn't be unaccepting of them coming to me afterwards and saying, yeah, I screwed up, I did this. You know, so I'm not sure what the question is, but, you know, I guess would you,

how tolerant would you be if your kids started to walk? locked down somewhere the same path you did knowing that you came out okay you know yeah i mean it's such a good look i mean it's it's it's it's again it's like these are the questions where we're you know you know as parents it's like you know we're it's such a blessing to be this obsessed with these people's lives and their well-being and i think adversity is such a important word there's absolutely no way that i could do the things that i could do put food on the table the way that i do if i didn't get the the the licks that i got and the bumps that I got and was in the valleys that I spent a lot of time in.

And so I knew, you know, instinctively, I know with my children, adversity is so necessary. And how do I teach my kids the things I've learned but also know they cannot learn them the way that I learned them because there was so many times and I'm sure it's the same for you guys

where this shit could have gone either way. It was razor-fucking close. And like, you know, and we've lost people. I've lost people. I've lost my freedom. I've been in situations where, okay, by the grace of whatever you want to call it, it just went a different way.

But, oh my gosh, like, I've seen it really not work out. And so, you know, from a young age with my kids, you know, they were, you know, competing in martial arts. They were, you know, like, everybody needs to know how to swim. Everybody needs to know how to defend themselves. Everybody needs to know how to be in the outdoors. And how can you sort of under the umbrella of safety, put them in really, really hard, challenging situations

where they can learn from. And I think moreover, I think especially for my boys, you know, how do I teach them, you know, in this day and age where there's so few role models out there for these young boys, how do I teach them that, like, yes, like it is absolutely paramount that you are a protector, that you're a provider, that you're somebody that can be counted on, that people in a crowd, if something goes wrong,

will you guys have the know-how and the ability to be helpful? But also, equally important, are you sensitive, are you kind, are you vulnerable, are you open, are you curious? Do you not judge? Do you, are you hungry for conversation? Are you hungry to learn?

Are you hungry to be challenged by somebody who thinks, looks, feels, praise to somebody completely different than you? Are you confident enough in yourself to approach any conversation, but also be, nimble enough to listen and to be swayed and to be changed. I'm not, John, I need your guidance.

Jesus Christ. Come on, man. But, you know, it's all of it. You know, like, that's what's so cool about it. And I do feel, I don't know if you guys feel the same thing, but I do feel these paths for me are really lining up, where the work that, at least the work that I want to be doing, you know, really has a, it really informs this.

It informs me as a human being. I get a deeper understanding. but also, you know, one day my kids will look at it and they'll say, one, yeah, dad was working his ass off, but two, you know, that there's a, that there's a message there, that there's a humanity there that they see in all people, even when you play a monster, you know, that there's a little kid in there, there's a scared little kid in there,

and that it's never too late. It's never too late to bring somebody out of the valley. How in the world did you gather all this wisdom? Everything you just said, seriously, it's incredible. Sean, he doesn't spend all this time watching below deck eating Swedish fish. You know what I mean?

I got to cross that off my list. I mean, what are you doing? What are you talking about? He's out of the world, okay? No, traitors. Traders. Traders. No, seriously, you're just, that was just incredible.

Everything you just said, I was like rapture. He went through the fire. I know, but Sean, you, I mean, look, you, everybody that I know here on this thing, Sean, you, you, you came, you didn't have, nobody handed you this. This is true. You came from a, you know, you had a single mom household.

Your dad left, which we make fun of all the time. It's super funny the way he left. It was so sudden. Fantastic. And five kids just left them all. Just one day, just gone. Just evaporated. Just tire screech.

Yeah, just like he was on the, like on the USS Enterprise. He just got beamed out of there. So, so. But I mean, Sean, you grew up in that, and you had to kind of fend for yourself and you fend your way and you were a talented dude and J.B., you were out in the world working since you were a kid and you had to kind of fend for yourself as well.

Like, you know what it's like, and none of us knew anybody. I didn't know anybody in show business. And Will? You had like, how many maids and servers did you have to leave your house? We ended up reducing after the crash of 87, we reduced a little bit. But at boarding school, everybody was, anyway,

doesn't matter. Parking spot for all of them. You know, it's like... But the point is, like, you I bet you have more, it feels like John, what's nice is you have real access to your experience in a way that's very,

that you stay very in touch with it, and that's great because you can kind of, because your kids can learn from that. And that is a thing that I try to do. I try to, Jason, like you were saying, I have those moments where I'm like, trying to understand their experience, where they are, trying to identify with where they're at,

where I was at that age. I have three boys. I have two teenagers, age boys, and I spent a lot of time going, you know, they're going through it. They're going through those years. And I go, like, let them have the thing. And also don't make it about me and like, hey, when I was a kid, just let them have those things.

But try to identify with those moments. And it's not always easy, you know, but you try to do it as much as you can. Yeah. We'll be right back. Back to the show. John, do you have, because everything, I could talk to you about all this stuff. You were just talking about forever. I love talking about that.

John, do not get your dog. He's going to try to go side chat. He's going to try to go side chat. No, now, do your kids feel like dad is overwhelming with all of those kind of teachings and kind of parenting, or do they actually listen to what you're saying? I'm not sure. You know, I'm not sure.

You know, like my oldest son, boxes, I'm his trainer. I coach my, you know, I coach them in football, and I've coached them in basketball since they were young. You know, I coach my daughter. The thing that I know they see is what I saw in my dad. And, you know, my dad was the guy that when people in the neighborhood, people around D.C., my friends, they all had their own relationships with my dad. When they were in trouble, they went to my dad.

He was their coach. He was a guy that he'd call him straight. You know, he wouldn't bullshit them. He'd help them. He always had everybody's back. And he wouldn't. judge. Let's work through this. Let's get through this

and then we'll deal with the judgment and all that shit later. But he was a guy that could really be depended on. And so I think my kids have seen that, you know, I have real relationships. You know, we live in, you know, this small town of, you know, we live in Ohio and we've been there 15 years. I love Ohio.

And it's such a small, yeah, it's beautiful. And it's a beautiful community where you still can, you know, raise other kids. You know, you parent other people's kids. You know, kids come to me and you know i i i teach them how to box i've i've been coaching football there for the last six years and and and i you know we have a theater there where the kids come and and so i think that the one thing my kids know is that it's not i'm i'm i'm sort of the same with all of them and

if kid comes to me it doesn't matter if he's my kid or your kid you know i i really really i want to give them whatever i can give them with with while saying look i don't have the fucking answers like i hit every wall you can hit right but like it's never too too late and let your parents love you, whether you're, whether they left or not, whether they're incarcerated or not, they love so. Sean, by the way, he started, he started a theater, basically like a theater and a

theater festival in up in Ohio. Is that right, John? Oh, I didn't, I didn't know that. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah, I mean, it's just you know, in the town, it's, it's, the town has given me so much and I love it and, and, um, you know, since we, since my first exposure to

it, um, you know, I saw something in the young people in that town, you know, 10, 15 years ago where there was such sturdiness and such grace and kindness. There's a, it's yes, it's yes, sir, no ma'am, but there's nothing repressed or suppressed. The kids are curious. There's a really strong onus of the young people in Ohio to get out, go see the world, go experience things, and then come back and raise your family there. And it's a really beautiful community.

But I will say over the past, you know, five, ten years, especially, so many folks, have moved up there. And culturally, it's really a place in conflict because the tipping point has kind of happens. You know, we see it in big cities all the time. Definitely happened in D.C. where I grew up. But, you know, in Ohio, it's really gotten to a place where, you know, the public school there,

which was a real bastion of public education, has really suffered because of the influx of Angelinos that have come up there. And so I just, I love that school. I love these kids. I love these institutional Ohio families. So we built a theater in an old, defunct school building. And all the proceeds go to the public school theater department.

And, you know, we were able to raise, yeah, a ton of it was really cool. Sean's agreeing to do a show there next year. It's great. Yeah, that's great. What an agreement. What a way to agree to something. You know, Will always makes fun of me because I, whenever I go to, like, a party or a dinner, I want to leave right away. And I'm like, I learned it from my dad.

Oh, look at that. Look who jumped on. Look who jumped on. You did teach you something. You mentioned, you mentioned D.C. in Maryland, and I want to get to because it was one of the, I, for me, it was a show that really, I thought like, wow, it really fucking just blew me away. When you played, was it, Wayne Jenkins? Yeah, yeah. And we owned the city.

Do you guys see that on HBO, this David Simon show? It's unbelievable. And what's cool is. Now, kind of just talking to you, I can see that, like, you brought some of your own knowledge of all that kind of stuff and, like, sort of the guys who ended up staying on the wrong track or got on the wrong track and never got off in this really, I mean, Wayne is a very compromised character, right? And he does, and I think that somewhere along the line, when he started, he thinks he's doing the right thing, right? Like, he thinks he's fighting in this, but he actually ends up sort of going rogue or bad or whatever. but he sees himself not as doing that. Anyway, it's a very complex portrayal,

and I love that show. I mean, that must tell me about working with David Simon and what that experience was like. It's excellent, man. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. That one is my heart. And, you know, it was such a thrill and an honor for me.

I think first and foremost, you know, at that time, in the wake of Freddie Gray and in the midst of George Floyd and everything that was going on in this country. and for me just being so, I think naturally, based on people in my life and based on my own experience, I'm so revolted by the flag waving in this country, the people on either side of the polls just waving their flag full of rhetoric, but they've never been in the valleys.

They've never been in the situation where they're actually rubbing elbows with the other side. So you can't, there's no access to recognizing decency in each other. There's no access for empathy. there's no access to for friendship or for any level of understanding because you're just staying on your mountaintop you know, from the, you know, just waving your flag. And so for me to go into this project, you know,

that, you know, in Baltimore, which is sort of like right in the tip of the spear of race and policing at that time. Yeah. You know, and get this front row ticket and also just to have the access coming in sort of with the street cred of David Simon and how much the wire, you know,

you know, in that city, that wire for both the guys on the street, the people in the community, and for the police, like that is, that is, like, required watching. Like, the cops that I know in Baltimore, they watch that every year to remind them that it's not personal, it's business. You guys got to see it. Yeah, I would love to. You've seen the wire, right?

You guys have seen the wire, right? Yeah, not yet. Yeah, yeah. So for me to kind of go in there like that, you know, I got to go, you know, I rode out with those guys every night for three straight months and went on SWAT raids with the county. SWAT team and the city SWAT team, but got to know Wayne, got to know that whole unit of the GunTrace Task Force. So I made unbelievable friends and I was able to see, you know, I was just so

grateful to really see it in that way. But I think more than anything else, man. And, you know, look, he was considered, you know, the most corrupt, the most vicious, the most sort of vile, you know, police officer in the history of that city. So to go into the police department and say, hey, I want to ride out with you guys, I want to be around you guys to research this, this very, very ugly chapter of their life. I learned quickly, you know, with policing, you know, how,

other than the victims and the community that are just drastically devastated by corrupt policing, it's also good cops are just, are terrorized by it, and their careers are completely destroyed by it. And their safety on the street is totally upended by it as well. But I think most, Mostly, you know, for me, the key for me was how do you play this guy and not just play him as a monster?

How do you find, you know, some sort of, and it was interesting, man, because every single person who knew Wayne, it was the first thing I said to him when I first met him, everybody who talked to him said, you know, even if he was in the middle of robbing a drug dealer or, you know, shaking a guy down, making a false arrest, no matter what it was, if any of his kids needed him, at any point, if there was ever an issue with the kids, he would run home immediately. And it really hit me, you know, how can you engage in such corruption, knowing that most likely this is going to have a bad end because criminality almost always ends bad? How can you be that attuned to your family?

And you're really doing one to support your family because you feel like you're not getting paid what you deserve. But that sort of conundrum and dichotomy, you know, really was at the crux of who I think he is and why he was so kind of torn apart. But he wasn't just a monster. Right, right, right. Well, yeah, no, he's complied.

Sean has, you had a little bit of criminality. Remember that time you guys almost got a ticket? Scotty Devil Park while you ran into Chipotle. I remember that story. That was risky. Wait, but when I was in college, I stole a turkey sandwich from a 7-Eleven. And I got arrested. Are you going to play the turkey sandwich in the movie?

You get died with David Simon director. David Simon. Hey, John, John. I'll read for it. John, you're such a great communicator. That's sick, yeah. It's unbelievable. You're such a great communicator,

and you have such a passion for community and country, and it seems like you do not shy away from opportunities for leadership. Have you ever thought about politics at all? Do you see that ever? I mean, no, I know. No, no, I think everybody has that reaction anytime anybody ever thinks about it or it's mentioned them. But you look at our, I'm not asking,

I don't care what side of the political spectrum you're on, but you look at our current leaders, our current... Like, you yearn for someone that can communicate like you and that can have the kind of genuine passion for people, for condition and community. And we need folks like you if you ever have the time. So you got my vote. Yeah.

I've, oh, jeez, I don't. Be careful, but I, look, no, I mean, I, look, I, I, I appreciate that. I think the people that know me well, my brothers, I've, I've a brother who's a cancer surgeon the head of oncology at UCLA in orthopedics. He's like, wow. That guy should be running for, that guy is, yeah, but, but, but, but, you know, I really believe that what we do can really be effective. I, I just do in my heart.

And I think that, you know, for me, I feel most natural and most authentic, honestly, coaching and teaching and doing it in my community on the one-on-one. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I think as far, I do really feel that what we do can really provide a service and can create real change and can really, you know, bring human beings together. And that's what I really want to do. Yeah, and you do it as well as you can.

Yeah. And he does it, like I said, like in We Own the City, like it is a great lesson in a lot of sort of really complex issues in that way. So it's you are, you are being of service while, like through your art. Yeah, he makes smiles. And then, I mean, dude, you got so many cool things. He's not getting votes, he's getting smiles. You've got so many cool things come.

You've done so many cool things. And it's like you're like accelerating, man. Like you're just like, it's awesome. And I'm so psyched that everybody's getting to see you work in so many different ways. You've got this summer you've got the new Spider-Man, brand new days coming out with, right, with the Punisher in it and that trailer like broke every record

when it came out. That trailer was so sick. Yeah, like that. And I'm not like a huge superhero movie fan and even I'm like, fuck, this movie looks dope. And then you're in The Odyssey, right? And Chris Nolan's The Odyssey. Nice. Can you talk a little bit about working with that? Because obviously Chris Nolan's one of the greats. Yeah, look at... I had to slug it out there with that fucking drip, Matt Damon.

Oh, God. Yeah. I got that. Sorry. We talk about a squeaky wheel. Yeah, that's time. What a complainer. You made it, you made it, though. Complainer. He's a terrible guy. Look, I think with Chris, you know, it's like, I think with, you know, I think with, you know, I think you get to see sometimes people doing, like, exactly what they're put on this earth to do.

And that's how I feel about Nolan. I mean, I think there's these stories, again, you know, everybody kind of going in, oh, you have no idea how hard it's going to be and how rigorous. how, you know, there's no, and for me, I'm like, let's fucking, like, I love that. It's music to my ears. There's nobody who's working harder on that set than he is. And the directors that I've gotten to work with, you know, like, Deni, you know, Scorsese or Polansky or, you know, Derek. I mean, there's so many of them, you know, they're all so enormously different. But the thing that I feel like is uniform among all the greats for me, I don't know if you guys feel this way.

But, you know, they've done so much work. They know it so intimately well. But there's really an atmosphere of exploration and freedom once you get to work. And I find no bigger sort of telltale sign of mediocrity than people who it has to be a certain way. And I couldn't believe that within this unbelievable structure and this unbelievable understanding of exactly what he wanted, you know, he's still both. inspired and not just allowed but demanded, you know, real freedom and creativity within every moment. Like, yeah, do you find yourself, like, working with him and, like, and these huge pieces

that you're doing? I mean, it's the Odyssey for Christ's sake. And is it, and within that, there's like a spirit of like, hey, let's find it. Like, I, I, absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I think in these films, you know, I, you know, I did this movie Fury some years back and I did the Pacific, which was sort of the next in the band of brothers. And, you know, there's these movies sometimes where there's a group of guys and you're all

just sort of like slogging it out together for the thing and you forge these unbelievable relationships. You know, and there's a group of men in this movie that, you know, were Odysseus's men, were Matt Damon's men. And it was this group of actors. You know, they did eight months in like eight different countries. Worked so incredibly hard. And, you know, And, you know, what was cool is, you know, I was only on the movie for a couple months. And but I got to really be a part of that group for the time that I was there. And that was such a blessing for me. I think that, you know, the best thing that this offers this life is the people that you meet along the way and the relationships that you get.

That's what you're going to die with. And I was so honored to be a part of that group of Odysseus' men and that I felt just a taste of what, you know, the real long. long, hard slog the adventure was. And, you know, that's my big tape. That's what I'm most grateful for. That's great. And then I mentioned, yeah, and then you, and then Spider-Man with Tom Holland,

the great Tom Holland. I love Tom. I mean, look, you know, like I got to, you know, I have a Punisher special that I wrote that's coming out next week that I'm really excited about. And then I'm also doing the Punisher in Spider-Man. And, you know, with Tom, because Tom was in the Odyssey as well

I've known Tom since he was 17 who did a movie in Ireland together I made his Spider-Man audition tape and he made my Punisher audition tape No way! And I gotta tell you man this fucking kid when he was 17 years old and everyone was auditioning for Spider-Man

this dude he was like I'm gonna get like I am Spider-Man and I was like look dude mathematically I just gotta be honest like I don't know but like he had such unbelievable conviction and belief and he's so fucking talented but beyond all of it like there is not

there is not a better guy like he was raised so well I love his family I love his his better half I'm so proud of the man and the movie star and the human ambassador that he's become

I love his relationship he's really in love they really have a great thing I love them and it's so cool for me, you know, now, you know, whatever it is, 10 years later to come back. And, you know, I spent the whole, you know, we did two movies back to back with each other. And I love this guy. And I couldn't be happier for him. Oh, that's so good. Dude, well, we, we couldn't be happier for you, man. I mean, you're just such a, you're so great. And like J.B. was saying, you're such a great communicator. It's just awesome to listen to you talking about stuff.

I'm so happy to have met you here. I know, man. You're just, cool. You're just sick. And, and Thanks, guys. You've got so much going on. You've got Spider-Man. Brand New Day comes July 31st. You've got The Odyssey opens June 17th. And, of course, Dog Day afternoon on Broadway. So congratulations.

It's just such a joy, yeah. John, see if you can find a work ethic before we see you again. I was going to ask you for a theater story, but next time I would love to hear just a tragic theater story. I have tons of them. Me too. They always make me laugh really hard. Well, we're going to see you backstage.

I'm going to drag Jason backstage and we're going to come back. Come on, guys. Get your ass out here, Willie, and drag me out of this apartment. I'm going to come in a couple weeks. Let's go see it. The great John Berthel. John, thanks for joining us, dude. It's such an honor, guys.

Thank you so much. I appreciate you guys. Nice to meet you, buddy. See you soon. See you, dude. Have a wonderful night. Thanks for having me, guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bye, buddy. Bye-bye. This guy. Yeah. I mean, you know what I find. But he was great, Will. I think I'm going to put them, I'm going to put them on the list with Alicia Keys, Lionel Richie, John Bernthal. For your, for favorites.

My three favorite guests. Yep. He's, I agree, man. He's unbelievable. Or I should say instead of not favorite guests, favorite interviews, right? So we don't offend some of the people that are my, you know, some of my favorite people. Amongst your favorites. Amongst my favorites.

Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. You know, though, to be, and I really mean this, and this goes for you guys, too, I think you have to be. No, I think you, no, it's a big compliment. I think you have to be super, super, super fucking smart like he is and like both of you are, to be talented, to be that talented. I don't know that dummies are talented. I've met a couple, but true, you're right.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, without the, yeah, yeah, but I mean, there's all kinds of different talent, though, too, right? I mean, you know, I think it's clear that he's drawing on his checkered past when he's playing these incredibly complex characters and tapping into stuff he knows. J.B. And Sean, please, go watch We Own This Cities on HBO. Yeah, for sure. You're in New York for the next little while.

You've got time at night. Watch it an episode of night. It's not very... It's so good. I've found it his portrayal to be astonishing. Like, it's really something. I love that. And, you know, all the stuff that he's doing in Ohio, which is, you know, there's a neighboring town just outside of it.

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