SmartLess - "Kara Swisher"

Episode Date: September 11, 2023

Relish this dish, an ep not to squish… espesh hackers, crackers, and phishers. Ladies and gents, it’s our guest Kara Swisher.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey guys, I'm sorry, I'm really sorry. I just got here, I'm really out of breath. What's happening? We're gonna do a show. We're gonna pod the hell out of this. You fucking... Let's do it. Are you ready to pod?

I don't know if I'm... Get the pod. Yeah, get the pod. Okay, let's get the pod. We have the cast, we're ready to pod. Okay, let me just... Get it? Guys, that's how the name came up.

You put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a cast, you put a let's get in the pot. We have the cast, we're ready to pod. Okay, let me just get it, guys. That's how the name came up. You put a cast inside a small area, like a pod, and then you speak. It makes a podcast. Yeah, you cast the pod. That's how it's, so anyway, I'm gonna show you how it works.

Here we go. Okay. Welcome to Smirks. Smirks. Smirks. Smirks. Smirks. how it works. Here we go. Okay. Welcome to Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.

Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.

Smart. Smart. Well, I've never seen your hair so flat. I know I said, but you just... Did you have a hat on? There it is. Are you late because you were at a flattening? Yeah, I just had to get my hair ironed

and I can never book this guy. Because for a while, you were crimping it, weren't you? Yeah, yeah, I was fun. I was crimping it. Yeah, do you guys remember? Scrunchies? I sure do. Yeah, scrunchies and leg warmers. Yes. I used to wear my socks as leg warmers.

Yeah. It should be the title of your, there it is of your autobiography, Jay. Scrunchies and leg warmers. The one with a baby story. And then what, what the things called where you'd strap on weights to your wrist. Oh, oh, the, the, the, the, uh, little heavy hands walkers. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't remember that. It's a whole Jason. I asked you this before, how in the world can you handle the heat that long outside playing golf every day? Um, I can't even handle it walking to physical therapy. You have to, uh, accept the fact that you're going to be wet and gross and sweaty and then go forward from there. I don't like getting hot when you're not supposed to get hot, you know, when you're not supposed

to be moving wet, like if you're moving furniture. Or how about acting in a scene that's supposed to be in the winter, but you're outside and it's not shooting it in the summer and you're not supposed to be sweating your heavy clothes. And it's like being stuck in a hot car with the windows that can't roll down and someone's giving you a haircut. Like, to me, that's the biggest night America ever imagined. If the hair is 60 years skinned, you mean?

Yeah, a dry haircut in a hot car with a windows broken. Dry hair cut. But in the world made you think of that. That's so funny. Oh, I know. Hey, you know what? By the way, when I asked this, I just came back from say bars.

I had my little tuna sushi, and I'm standing literally just five minutes ago, and I'm standing there and somebody goes, excuse me, are you online? I go, no, I'm in line. I'm not online. You know people say online. Yeah, I don't know how old this person preeled. Yeah. Yeah. This is what happens. But do you say online or in line? I was like, who says online? I say, I'm, oh, standing in line. If I'm waiting to buy groceries, I'm in line.

Yes, exactly. You know, logging into my hot line. If I'm waiting to buy groceries, I'm in line. Yes, exactly. You know, logging into my hotmail account, I'm online. Online, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So, and in Canada, they say lineup. You say there's a huge lineup. Instead of a huge lineup. At the grocery store?

Yeah, they'll say, yeah, there's a huge lineup. And they'll say lineup up, I know. So, whatever, I don't know. I didn't understand online. So maybe some people get to say, like, are you on line up? OK. Maybe not. Well, we've lost all of our listeners before the guest.

All right, let's get to it. You know how I love tough cookies. Today I got a tough cookie who's super soft and squishy on the inside full of love. I love this person. She's a super smarty. She's known for having her finger in the pulse of what's next in love this person. She's a super smarty. She's known for having her finger in the pulse of what's next in the tech world.

She's also a podcast pioneer. I've actually heard her take credit for this one. Oh my God. I love this one. I'm really curious about this woman. She's been a friend for quite a while. Most interviews she does in Aviator Sunglasses. Let's see if she has been a month today.

It's the host of on with Cara Swisher and Coast of the Pivot Podcast, my brilliant friend. Oh, Cara Swisher. Hi. Thank you so much Podcast, my brilliant friend. Oh, Cara Swisher. Thank you so much for she had to suffer. You had to suffer through that. That was exciting. The online thing. Say, well, oh, there's a Biden's.

You put him on the Biden's on. I was before Biden. Joe, do you hear that? Yeah, I'm sure he's listening. What didn't I say, Will, you you clown me during the interview with Biden? And I didn't I call his wife by her first name? Yeah, you should. Right.

It's Dr. Biden, it's Dr. Biden. Yeah, you said, yeah, you said she's a chill. Are we saying, are we saying Joe and Jill? Yeah, like I'm boys with Joe and Jill. And Cara, thank you so much for saying yes, to the Roojohn for canceling on you on the road. I know, I heard it was in your HBO thing. I haven't watched that yet, but I heard it.

You should be full protest. It's fine, it's fine. I am, who did you replace with, that Damon or something like that? That Damon, someone becoming Jackie A. Yeah, whose career is over now. It's over out of the business. Out of the high-mer thing.

It was a waste. It's a disaster for of the business. I'm a high-mer thing. It was a waste. It's a disaster for him. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. No, we had a problem. It's okay. I could give a fuck, but okay. No. That's what Sean said. You'd say. Yeah. Yeah.

I was going to ask you if you were nervous to be on a day, but clearly you're not, you know, the air. I'm like 10 podcasts in this morning, and I'm talking to a Chris Christie interview, so I'm really fine. Wait, you just, did you interview talking for a Chris Christie interview. So I'm really fine. Wait, you just did you interview Chris? No, it's Namunday, Monday or Tuesday. Something like that.

How do you prep for a Chris Christie interview? Now, I'm a, I'm a die hard Democrat, but I don't mind listening to him speak sometimes. He really can frame a, a, a, a position. Yeah. Yeah. When he's attacking people in his own party, he's, you know, he, it's like a symphony. a. Yeah. When he's attacking, when he's attacking people in his own party, he's, you know, he, it's like a symphony. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you know, that's the issue is that do you forgive him for his trespasses kind of thing? And I think a lot of people don't want to because he really was down with Trump for a very long time until Trump tried to kill him with COVID. And so like what happened like that kind of thing. And of course, there's the bridge gate. Yeah. Obviously, it was real. You know, but he's a great, he was

a prosecutor in New Jersey. Right. And there's also the close beach gate as well. The beach gate, that was a nice thing. Do you remember that one? No. What happened there? I remember, you want to tell it, you tell it.

Yeah, he was on a beach by himself, they're all these pictures. And then it became an internet meme, which was my favorite part of it. Because, and here's why, it's because he was using the New Jersey governor's summer beach house, right? They have one. And he had closed as governor. He had closed all the state beaches for various reasons. I think for maybe because it was COVID.

Yeah. Was it COVID? Yeah. It was trash the virus like a two-foot swell. Like sand. But then he was out on the beach by himself. And that was the first time, that was the first time we ever saw a politician be a hypocrite. It was astonishing. It was astonishing.

And then people started. But it's called the Jersey Shore. Just remember, it's the shore. We know there's no beach in Jersey. It's a Jersey shore. It's a Jersey shore. Sure, sure, sure. That's fair enough. But he did wash up there. I mean, there were a lot of obviously comparisons that were made to, yeah, whales. And yeah, I was waiting for someone to take this, the softball. Yeah. Anyway, anyway, we didn't. We didn't. No, you brushed against it. You did not hit the ball. No, it was just a foul. Just a, just a, just a, you had, you just do podcasts after podcasts. Yeah, I do. I do. And how do you, do you still love to do it?

I love it. I started about 10 years ago. Are you not podcasted out? No, I think you guys are doing great. Are you going to get into radio eventually? What's going on? No, no, no. I actually know.

No, no, it's a dying medium. No, I actually went to Bob Pittman who runs I Heart Radio when I had this idea. And he sat me down. I've known him since he covered AOL. I wrote a couple books on AOL. He was one of the characters in the book. And he goes, Cara, podcasting is a dead end.

You shouldn't do it. And I was like, oh, yeah, oh, Bob Pitt. Okay, Bob, you should do radio. But then you know, you know, he's straight into Matt with John Sykes. Johnny Sykes. Johnny Sykes told me you're wrong, Bob. Yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed.

But anyway, so I loved it. I loved doing it. And I love doing all the different ones we do. Well, for my sister, who may not know what you do in the brilliance that you are, you have been reporting on the tech industry since the early 90s. You're like one of the first people to ever kind of dive in with the big CEOs of all of these companies and get into their heads and interview them. And you've spoken to all of them, Bezos, Elon Musk, like just everybody.

And you're one of the most brilliant, I think people I've ever met and known and been friends with. Thank you, sir. And I love it. You're like, you're free. Like, if I don't have to read a book, thanks to our friendship. Yeah. Because it's like, I text you.

I'm like, what does this mean? You're like, do this. Don't do that. And it's fantastic. Yes, I'm your, I'm your I'm your circuit city service to you like your super valuable asset to all of us dummies out here in the world Yeah, you seem dumb you seem done Jason We when I was cramped pretty one you're the pretty one yeah, well you know actually will with the gun show that you're just Yeah, what's you just want to create. You know, actually will with the gun show that you were just doing. Right. Yeah.

What's going on there? Right. But what an asset we have in you. It's a show that's been running for a long time. And your podcast, the way that you explain and break down things for all of us, that's so complicated. Thank you.

I'm trying to figure out and navigate all this stuff. Yes, I want to ask you about that. I want to ask you about that. Yeah, AI, I want to know. But a front of mind right now, me are two things both Musk related one Current status on the cage match and also why the switching Why are we switching from the bird to the X? Oh, and I'm sorry if there are articles out there. They explain all this, but I'm not a reader

Well, I think the X one is this is your brain on drugs, but um, let's uh, let's start with uh Well, you know, it's interesting because I knew Elon when he was and he was head of failed company, actually. One of his early companies he got kicked out of, he made a couple million dollars, but was sort of washed up pretty early on and then started a company called X.com, which was a competitor to PayPal. They hated each other, I covered them. They had this sort of, you know, manned, not manned boy-fest arguments going on.

And then they merged and luckily sold to eBay and made their fortunes. And Elon, you know, had a lot of mistakes before that and actually was really intriguing and interesting person because the rest of them went off and did kind of stupid things. And Elon started doing space, Tesla, really cool stuff. And I spent a lot of time with him, and he's changed rather drastically in the last. Let me ask you this, because you would, obviously you know this.

So yeah, I remember when X and PayPal merged, and he tried to bring X on, he tried to drag that over, and he tried to get rid of PayPal, and there was a big, there was a legal thing there with Peter Tilly, he had a big argument about that. He got zeroed out. He got zeroed out and and it seems like To me He's obviously a

fairly clever guy and Elon Musk It does it does appear that he Missled people about his education. It seems like he did not graduate with any degrees from any of these places that he claims he drew

from including Queens in Canada. And he doesn't have all these high fluten degrees that he calls himself a physicist and all this kind of shit. Yeah, he calls himself a lot of things. So it's bullshit. So what's happening is, and Jason, this would make you crazy because he's actually just lying about it.

And nobody just says he's just lying, right? Well, you know, look, let's be clear. He's had, look, what's interesting is to meet these people before they had money very, you know, and they change rather drastically when some of them do, some of them don't. I mean, Tim Cook is a lovely guy, Brian Chesky, Ronser, B&B, couldn't be nicer. But some people get warped really beyond repair after they get so much money. And being the world's richest man, and then this concept of yourself. And, you know, there's a book coming out by Walter Isaacson that's going to talk about his early life, but his father was quite brutal to him. He was bullied as a kid. That doesn't mean every bully becomes this.

But yeah, I, but I'm saying he is a self-made person in terms of the stuff he's done as a business person. I'm sure, sure, however, at the same time, he's also, so not only is he lied about that, but he's also misled people about he didn't invent Tesla, he didn't invent any of these things. Yes. And I think that he's obviously quite a shrewd businessman. That's what he is best at, but he tries to sell himself as the inventor when really he's a good businessman.

And it's okay to be a good businessman, but he doesn't get his, he wants the credit for being a big brand. A tech visionary. I mean, I think he sees himself as the iron man, that guy, I think that's who Robert Doney Jr.'s role there. But he does have technical, logical chops, there's no quite,

you couldn't, you couldn't think of this long. But you're right, he didn't start Tesla, you know, he bought companies, he's buying Twitter, he's turned out to be very bad at media. Yeah. And but he is, let me just say, he's, he is quite brilliant in terms of business. And he also, you could say that about Steve Jobs didn't have real technical chops. It was others, Steve was the act and others, but he knew how to build a business. Yes. And that was critical. That was critical. I agree. And by the way, I'm not suggesting that he's not too hard. I can't believe I'm defending Elon right now.

No, I know I can't even either. That's amazing. He's a super showed right now. Well, this is your fifth podcast of the day. The one thing that sounds pretty interesting that he's, that, well, there's a few things he's doing that's kind of interesting, but this, um, Starlink.

Is it, is it, is Neuralink or, or? No, Neuralink is, is, is a brain, just a chip in your brain. Right, now, yeah, is that as kind of real as they want it to sound? And if so, what is it, no? It's the idea, sort of like, you know, you watch the Matrix, you put something in your brain

and it gives you, you know, you immediately can do karate or whatever. It's like a port that you can like put a hotline drive into. Sean, if you learned karate in a port that you can like put a hot dog in. Shung, if you learned karate in a man or something. Karate, Karate. What are we talking about? What are we talking about?

It's a pill. No, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's technology that you put. It's, there are some ideas that it could help people who, who cannot walk and things like that. Eventually, we'll have that. Yes. And so Elon's idea, and this was really interesting when I interviewed him once, was that AI was, he's been obsessed about AI for a long, long time and very worried about it.

And in fact, he was early investor in a lot of stuff. He's quite pressuring about a lot of trends. And so he thought that at first that AI was going to kill us essentially, that, you know, that same old trope. And then later, he decided it was gonna treat us like house cats, like that we were, okay, we'll just feed you. Then he moved on to Ant Hills, which was interesting.

So that, like, when we're building a highway and we cover, we did store an Ant Hill, we don't know it, we don't want to, but it's in our way, but we don't think, I shall kill the ants today. So, he thought that we should need more throughput in our brains to keep up with AI. That was the inspiration. But then he also has Starlink, which is different, which is doing satellites.

What's Starlink? Which is Internet. It's satellite Internet. It's being used in Ukraine quite actively for battlefield communication. As opposed to fiber optics? Yeah, it's a satellite. And nobody is as far along as he is. Same thing with SpaceX. Why is that more advantageous than fiberlink or fiber optics?

Because it's in the air. In places where they don't have the cable blade. You can't drag the cable to where you live in Los Angeles. It's all cable. It's all cable. You have cable right up your ass. And we will be right back. Thanks to good RX for supporting Smarlas. Are you ready for this year's cold and flu season? Whether you're looking for savings on your flu vaccine or advice on staying healthy, GoodRx is here to help. Best of all, GoodRx is completely free, easy to use,

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If you guys saw my text between Scottie and I, you would laugh because I don't even finish sentences. I barely get, and you know when they make suggestions about you want to try this word, or maybe you're right when I just get right past it because I'm in a hurry. And so Scottie's asked me to start using Grammarly because he's beyond annoyed with me and my lack of abilities. You'll be amazed at what you can do with Grammarly. Go to Grammarly.com slash go to download for free today. That's g-r-a-m-m-a-r-l-y.com slash go. All right, back to the show. All of these tech companies that care that you,

we put my, wait, I wanna stay on A.I. first, cause then I wanna ask that last question. So, so. Yeah, yeah, I will decide what you're gonna stay on. What arm you thinking about? I'm sorry, Sean. I'm fascinated just by technology. I just love it.

And you know, Scotty, my husband loves, you know, lives for. Yeah. We can't just have a light switch. It's gotta be, you know, this button turns this and I can do it for you know Scotty. My husband loves, you know, lives for. Yeah. We can't just have a light switch. It's gotta be, you know, this button turns this and I can do it for my phone or whatever. But now, and then like last November, it was a chat GPT seemed to come out of nowhere.

It was like, what everybody's like, what's chat GPT in like in two days? Everybody was, you can ask it this and do this. And then since then, there's been like, you know, and you hear like 50 companies coming out. So talk to me about that, where is that coming, where did it come from, why did it come out so fast,

and does it scare you, or what? No, I'm not scared of AI. I'm scared of people who use AI. How's that? Like it's kind of, you know, don't be scared of the actual tech. It's like being scared of the internet, it's what people do with the internet.

And it's not gonna suddenly become self-aware and do a terminator move. A lot of sci-fi is based on that. That these machines care about us. They don't. They don't have any opinion about us. Yeah, they're not going to lock the pod bay doors anytime. Yes, and decide, hello.

Yeah. You know, I think when the issue is a lot, this has been around for a while. And by the way, Elon think when the issue is a lot, this has been around for a while. And by the way, Elon wasn't early investor in OpenAI, which was a public, it was a nonprofit in order. Which is the company that owns Chachipati. Yes, and then it had a, it now has a capitalist arm

and has a profit arm. But what it was was, he and others, not just him, were worried about the development of AI than that would be controlled by the Googles, the Facebooks, the apples, and the Amazon to the world. Which all have now their own AI. That's right. And so it started like that.

And so it's being run by Sam Altman, who I have huge regard for. I really like him. He's great. Yeah, I want to be him. And no, no. He is. I don't want you to mute him. He's up again.

When you're here, I don't know if you know this. They siphon through who I can see. You can't mute him. Oh, really? OK. You can see him. Also, he's a gay, by the way. He's a gay.

I know. I think he's a smart guy. He's a smart guy. So anyway, so what's happened is there's been a quantum leap in computing. There's been a quantum leap in the development of it. It's been going on for a long, long time, like more than a decade or longer than that machine learning and stuff like that. And so suddenly it started to take

some leaps because of computing power and scale and information. And there's these things called large language models, LLMs, that's what they call them, and it's a catchy name for them. And as we get more data, the data starts to teach itself and pattern match. That's really, I'm trying to, it's like to do an easy thing like say, you had abacuses and calculators for a while and then you got the spreadsheet. And you don't think of that. Abacai.

Abacai, thank you. I don't know, I don't know. I have all their elements. You're so smart. Well, so it's just that the computers are becoming smarter and teaching themselves. And so artificial, it's not a really computers are becoming smart and smart and teaching themselves. And so it's not a really great word, artificial intelligence.

Generative AI is the best word, is that it generates itself based on the patterns that come in the system. And GAI spells, gay. Right, gay. Gay. But Kara, it occurs to me that recently I was thinking about like, we assign the term AI,

kind of everything. Now you go online or you're going to buy something Whatever they say and it's you know, it's AI generated or AI, you know, well, that's just more Just talking about it's just it's just technology. That's that's all it is right. No, okay, signing the okay Sorry, no, it's not it's it's different. It's it's the it's before you you know You'd search for Google and then it would come back with whatever you like, will, your name, right? You'd come back. Now it can do, it goes into the search. And so before you'd get the page related to, now you get all the information and then it gets fed back at you, which is much more interesting.

So it goes deep into the sites and then generates, you know, I'm going to France, give me a thing before you'd have to search. And now it will do things and it will be embedded in, it's now being embedded in Microsoft, in Gmail, in everything you do. And there'll be an AI for insurance, there'll be an AI for healthcare, lots of different health cares, there'll be an AI for everything, like travel.

And that's, it's just bringing you information faster in a way that will predict things. That's helped me understand one thing that our industry is currently battling with the strike, both in the writers and the actors. One of the issues that they're concerned about, that we are concerned about, is this, when you're talking about generative AI

and the way in which it aggregates a bunch of previously created content or performances, books, movies, all these things. So when it ingests all of these things, such that it can train itself to stick back out a result, there are people like Sarah Silverman and these novelists that are saying, well, hang on a second,

you are training your model based on things that we have done and we should be like, I think, compensated or licensed, get a license for your something. How did they think, because I am assuming the horse, all of them, the millions of horses have left the barn now. No, no, no, no, because it's not protected by section 230, not of this is for, because it's not protected by Section 230.

Not of this is for, it's copyright issues. And that's one of the ways they got money out of YouTube. And so what she's doing is absolutely correct. I think Barry Diller is going to do the same. A bunch of newspapers are getting together. And actually, Chad G.P.T. just licensed AP, the content for AP. So the name of the game now is to own your IP,

if you're a creator or you're an actor or whatever. And that's what you guys are arguing over. And let me just say. Let me understand that. Yeah, so let's say that somebody, so for Tracy or people like me out there that are not there. There's a lot of Jason Bateman. There's a Jason Bateman AI.

There is. So, yeah, so I mean, I could put a prompt into an AI thing and say, give me a performance that combines Jason Bateman's role on Silver Spoons with his role on a rest of development, whatever the hell it is. And the people who own those, the people who own the show Silver Spoons and own the show rest of development, do they get compensated for that? Those performances being in the blender? Yes, but you don't, because you don't, because you signed away your content,

right, so long time ago, that's why whoever owns the content, that particular content. Now, you could pot, there might be some law legal cases where you say, well, this was never imagined that it would take my face or it would take my performance.

But whoever owns your own ownership of IP is so important to actual property. I own all my IP right now because I want to do it. And so if Google used to just grab things and they didn't care about IP, they got in trouble for that. But they do own, they have owned a lot of your stuff, a SOTUS Facebook, they own all your stuff because you signed it when you didn't realize it. But then sorry, so I can hold onto this track.

So then the people who do own Silver Spoon's Interest at the Bill and Bill, have they received a check for this use of that material in order to train these... They will. They will. They will. I think these companies are not going to, there's now a Bill and Congress that will say it's absolutely not protected. Section 230, you know what that is.

Why does that have to be retroactively challenged in the court? But well, then why didn't they receive a license even before they ingested these important resources? They didn't ingest everything. They may have made a mistake by ingesting it. They'll go have to go back and pay for any kind of copyrighted content that's under copyright. So all the things that are aggregated

inside of AI that are owned by some of them are owned by them. Some of them are their own data map models. And so it'll just depend on what's in there. And so the provenance of where it came from will be your super important. But I guess what Jason saying, I think I'm chasing him to me, that their entire model is built on information that was not created by them. Right. But they might own the rights to. But they don't own the rights to all the books

that Tom Clancy has written. If they're out of IP, they can. Right. What do you mean out of IP? What does that mean? Out of copyright. Yeah, if they're not copyrighted. Meaning it becomes public domain.

So they can take Beethoven music. They can take it. Well, the Beethoven, but that's over 100 years old. Tom's books are not 100 years old. So they're going to have to YouTube pays licensing fees. Like, there are, it does happen. And so the question is, what? They can't just grab anything, although I'll never forget.

I was walking with Larry Page. You started Google at Google in the early days. And there was a room of televisions. And I said, what are you doing? They were on. Like, it was a circuit city at the time, and he said, I'm taping all of television, and I was like, what? Like, it was so crazy.

The way. And he was using close captioning to search television, and I said, do you have the rights to do that? And he goes, well, it's going to be great for people to be able to search television. It's great for the company, and I said, but then you control it. Like, you can't do it without asking.

And he just was like, well, of course I can. And I was like, well, I hope they sue you. Like, because that's what's gonna happen. There's gonna be a lot of lawsuits. I think, luckily, a lot of the media companies and the publishers do understand this right now early. And they're not, they won't be able to grab a lot of copyrightwriting content very easily.

We were talking about it yesterday, the three of us were one of the things that's going on with our labor dispute that's going on in our businesses is, you know, that the companies want to be able to have this blanket usage of likeness and stuff, right? And so they're trying to do all, right? And they're claiming, you know, fuck you, we can do whatever the hell we want, and how dare you tell us what to do. Well, at the same time, we know for fact that they're involved in litigation right now

to try to protect their info from being used. So they're sort of, once again, you can understand how outraged I was because, as you saw before, that I hate people who are total hypocrites. And that seems to be the name of the game. And I think, and also correct me if I'm wrong, is there is bipartisan support in Congress for solving this issue with the end. 100%. Yes, because they're going to do what they did before to publishing companies and media companies. by partisan support in Congress for solving this issue with a hundred percent.

Yes, because they're going to do to what they did before to publishing companies and media companies, they're going to fuck them. And that's what they're trying to do now. They're going to have a harder time here because they're going deep into the content versus pointing to it, which gives you power. And so with you and the studios, though, I always say this to the studio heads that I talked to, and I mean, the else is,

you're all on the same side against the tech companies in the end, because that's who's going to fuck you. That they have the money, they have the time, they have the means. So, you know, Netflix interests are very different than Disney's interests that are very different than Apple's interests. And so, that's your problem. And also, AI is not clear where AI is going yet, but you can anticipate that they're going to want to feed in all of Silver Spoons and make a new show that's like. But you can anticipate that they're going to want to feed in

all of Silver Spoons and make a new show that's like that. They can do that. What happens while all this is getting sorted out and litigated, is there an injunction where AI gets frozen or does these AI companies get to continue to make profits while they figure out who's going to win or lose? And once they do lose, do they then retroactively compensate all of these.

That's what happened with you two. That's what happened with you two. But that's what happens in American business. That's all they do, which is you keep going. You do whatever the fuck you want. And at a certain point, the, the, your chicken come home to roost and you've got to end up paying people back retroactively. And they're like, well, except you guys have given away a lot.

I have this argument with a guy, the rock from the sun guy. What's his name? The creator. John let's go. French Stewart. No, no, no, no, the creator of the creator. Oh, you know, Kristen Johnson. Oh, Casey Warner. Yeah, Tom Warner. No, no, no, no, no, I got.

I'm going to like. I love it. No, I love him. He's great. You know, a great piece in the Washington Post. No, it's not the cast. It was the creator. I know.

I was. I'm being said. I'm sorry. His name is Terry Turner. No, Bonnie and Terry. Bon Whitteller. No, I'll find the, I'm sorry. His name is Terry Turner. No. Bonnie and Terry Turner. Bon Whitteller. No, I'll find it.

I'll find it. Third rock for the son. So guy who did, or 30 rock. No, three men in the baby. Three men in the baby. No, no. A two and a half men. The two and a half men.

Chuck Laurie. Chuck Laurie. Oh my God. Be and I were sitting. Ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding ding sitting next to each other at a dinner on the other side was a Google executive, a very wealthy Google executive. And he Instagram just got and bought and he goes, why did that guy get so much money? Like, I think it was a billion dollars or whatever. And I said, because he owned it, Chuck, like, sorry, he owned it. And he goes, well, why should he get that? I said, because he's the owner. He owns the, he owns the company. And he has a piece of it. And I said, I said, you're a well played employee from what can tell. You sell your content to them, and then they own it.

CBS. And you're the reason CBS is so valuable. And you should get a piece of that. But why don't you get a piece of that? He does. He does, but he still is not getting the piece that he created value. You know what I mean? And so, you know, he got very exercise about it.

But the point is, you all have to start to rethink your entire economic system in Hollywood because either you guys are going to have to get a piece of it or have to be entrepreneurs yourselves rather than rely on studios. Well, we have to go to Wells Fargo and get the loan for production instead of the studios going to Wells Fargo to get the loan for production. You have to take the risk. But that's hard because your industry operates on fear, loathing, and insecurity, right? Yeah, right. First of all, Cara, thanks very much and have a good year. Secondly, secondly, we've got,

in Hollywood, we've got our top brains on it, and we're all, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh journalism and everything since you started, why would you do it? Why do you still love it? Have you ever tried to start your own company? I have started, many companies. I have. No, I've been podcast companies, but I'm at like techie kind of stuff. Oh no, no, I'm not techie.

No, I haven't. I've been offered jobs at all the big companies. I would have been a billionaire at this point. If had I taken them, I sadly didn't. I was like, what do I need you for? I'm a journalist like a lady. I know. I had I taken them, I sadly didn't. I was like, what do I need you for? I'm a journalist. I know I had a really early Google offer. I didn't want it to Amazon. I was feeling those opportunities are not over for you.

I doubt, but definitely. You put your hand up. You get gobbled. I decided to innovate with journalism. And so I broke away from the Wall Street Journal, created my own company. Now everybody's doing it like sub-stack and stuff like that. Created a conference company, it's highly lucrative. So the reason I was attracted is because I was at the Washington Post, and I was headed for the big time, which would have been covering the Clinton administration, and I just couldn't do it. I was like, this is not what I want to do, cover politics and be part of it thing,

and I just kept seeing, I went to this fellowship at Duke and started using early internet tools. And I downloaded a book onto my computer. And I messed up the whole network at Duke at the time. And the guy was mad at me, this nerdy guy was like, what did you do? I said, I downloaded a book. He said, yeah, I clogged the pipe. And he goes, he goes, you made a mess. And I said, I downloaded a book, you asshole. And he goes, you clogged up the pipe. I said, but I downloaded a book. And I said, then everything could be downloaded.

And so it occurred to me at that moment. And this was back in the 90s that everything that can be digitized would be digitized. And that was, that's, I was like, oh, well, that's, that's like the Gutenberg Bible. That's like radio, television, except bigger. And it's a worldwide network of information. So the minute it happened, I was like, oh, I see.

This is a big fucking deal. This is so, that's all. Wow. And now, a word from our sponsor. Smartless is sponsored by BetterHelp. If you're anything like me, you stay up at night with your mind racing, racing, racing, right?

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And now back to the show. It seems like every industry would benefit from an equally devised council. In other words, thoughts and interests equally represented from both sides, whatever those are, in every industry to figure out and to be creative and curious about what the potential problems and pluses are from this specific thing, this AI thing. Because, like we're dealing with these strikes right now, I think everybody kind of agrees, we don't have brains big enough to figure out how to language everything specifically

into this term of contract. We're going to need these next three years to really figure out the micro, but what is the language for the macro foundational stuff, such that as we start to learn the specifics of how this stuff benefits us or hurts us, the language is already established that we can make it all fair as we go forward. Where are the brains that can fill these rooms? Hey, Jay, I've noticed something and this is sort of related. I think that Jason, you would have been, you would have, you'd make a really good Canadian

because this is not the first time you've talked about the idea of like, we should, there should be a broadcaster, there should be a consensus given by a government agency that we can all turn to. I mean, you're really, you would make a, you would fit right in Canada. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, that is a compliment. I really, I truly do. Listen, I love it up there. I definitely really do. But you know, you guys are creative. Look at Sean just did with his show. I really, I truly do. Listen, I love it up there. I really do. But you know, you guys are creative. Look at Sean just did with his show. You know, creativity is not going to be digitized easily at all by, in any way, creativity

and entrepreneurship. They can't copy Quirk. They can't. And that's powerful. That's powerful. But Elon Musk can try. But I got rapid fire like last three questions because I got to let you go. They're not going to let you go.

We have you like 10 questions for Chris. Okay, sure. Well, I want to talk about military intelligence because you're like. You'll love the Apple Vision Pro, Will. Really? I'm going to get a demo of it next week. Good. I was supposed to go and I'm Jason's there and I'm not.

You know what? It's not quite there yet, but you'll, if you get it, you'll get it. Caratel, my sister Tracy, what that is. Apple Vision Pro is a headset. It's like the Oculus, but it's very different. It's going to get it, you'll get it. Caratel, my sister Tracy, what that is. Apple Vision Pro is a headset. It's like the Oculus, but it's very different. It's gonna, it's gonna change work. It's like ski goggles, but you can see stuff inside it. Yeah, you can see through them, actually.

How's it gonna change work, Carat, just quickly? Because you're not gonna need a screen. You know, everyone's like, it costs $3,000. They said a really nice screen costs $3,000. I think you're gonna have the screens in front of you. And when it gets lighter and better, to have the screens in front of you. And when it gets lighter and better, you'll be working in front of you. Head's up display is the way it's going to go.

100%. And this is the first step there. You'll really enjoy it. And touch the dinosaur, Jason. Touch the dinosaur. Touch the dinosaur. You'll know what I mean. That's not a euphemism, right?

I mean, it's just, OK. porn will be really good with this. Porn will be amazing. Trampstamp, it says touch the dinosaur. But Carol, remember the Google glasses? Like, why not that? Yeah, that's, I have a pair. I just found my pair the other day

because it wasn't right, because it was too, but then nobody's gonna walk around with the whole thing over here. It's not gonna look like that. Nobody's gonna come down. Calm down. Look at the early internet. The internet looks like shit.

Everything looks like shit at the beginning. Remember the headphones, airpods? Sean, nobody's walking around to go anywhere. Sean, look at your baby pictures. Everybody's going to go into the glasses. It'll look like your glasses. I told you, it's like the automated car. We're all going to be getting an automated car.

As people are going to be showing up at redress. I just did it yesterday with my son. Yeah, you're going to order one. The user report is going to be dead in it. No, no. Show up and then the fucking these things are gonna be great coffins good. No, no I just rode the Waymo yesterday around You didn't go with my son my son the waymo. What is it? Waymo is owned by Google and then there's crews by GM And then there's a list by Amazon driver list Uber no people in the cars. Why would you ever get into that?

It's so cool I'll send you the video is it like a noober? Can you ever get into that? It's so cool. I'll send you the video. Is it like an Uber? Can you text me that video? It's like a neuter. Yes, I just put them up on the rest. It's a rideshare thing. Like a rideshare thing and you call it.

They have them in LA. I've seen it in LA. They're just starting in LA. They're just, they're, they're, they're in testing right now. But they're in Phoenix going to the airport now and in Houston. They have long haul trucks in Texas doing a driver's house. They should offer helmets to the riders just for the first year. You don't need it.

You get in a car with an Uber driver who's like 16 and you're good with that. I'm sorry. I can't wait to do it again in one of those and get it and join the foot and a half club. I have ridden these things. Ha ha. Yeah, with your girl.

Really nice. You would do that anyway with someone in the front seat as my ass. I would. You're a good one. I want nice. You would do that anyway with someone in the front seat as my ass, but I want to know about okay, so just okay. Well, I wanted to get into military intelligence because I know you are into that. I just like I don't want to. Millage, okay. Tell me about that. Like because you grew up like learning about it and then you and then you pivoted right or something or your dad was. I couldn't go in military because I was gay Sean that was why it was don't ask don't tell and I'd like to tell yeah remember that remember you made them ask I made them I couldn't be a military because I was gay my fan

my dad's me fucking ask me fucking I'll tell you I'll kiss her kiss her and then you're gonna ask me and then you're gonna ask me and I'm gonna tell thank you Bill Clinton for that by the way well that's too big of a question. We'll get into that next time. But what is the, what is the, what's your favorite new techie gadget of the year of the last 10 years? Is it this dumb ride that I'm never going to get into? Is it the Google thing with the VR? I love, no, it's Apple. It's Apple. Apple, sorry. I really am really heartened by these autonomous cars. I have ridden them for 20 years and they are really getting good. They're getting good.

They're getting real good. And so I... The truck thing is an issue though, right? No. Because that's a lot of drivers that are going to go out of work. You know, who gets an accident? No, it's not. There's not enough drivers in this country.

There's a hundred, we're down a hundred thousand drivers. Oh, really? Instead, you have the long haul. Long haul shouldn't be done by people FYI. It's very dangerous and it's not good work. And so what you do is you have the autonomous trucks do the long haul and then in short terms into the cities, you have people do them. So there's all kinds of, and then there's job opportunities to run them and there's, it's

a false argument to say we have enough for this. You know, and a lot of these automated robots are becoming drunks. And so they're forming. Yeah. Tell me what alcoholics autonomous. It's so. So you're funnier than Elon Musk. I'm not.

I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not. That was an Elon Musk joke. Just FYI. That was something. I'm.

What's the opposite of artificial intelligence? What? Here it comes. Natural stupidity. Hey guys. So, Karen, tell me about the greatest military invention of the last few years. I think the Starlink, the Starlink what it's doing in Ukraine is really important. It is. It is.

It's. Now, when you were a kid, these are, and then we're going to let you go. Because now, these are the things I worked on that I want to know. I can't imagine, like, I would have killed to know you as a kid. Like, we would have been best friends. Best friends. But what do you, Princeton New Jersey? I can't imagine working at KFC or something.

Like, what is like the first, did you ever work? What was your first job? I was an entrepreneur. I took pictures of people for their senior pictures. So you were a little photographer, like a little photographer. Yeah, really? At a dark room. Creepy.

Did you hold on to all the photos and then load them online and digitize them then only IP? Fuck you, Cara. Do you ever come down to Los Angeles so we can see face to face and share a meal? Yes, I come in, yes, 100%. Will you come and have dinner with us?

Yes, I probably, if you mean it, unless it's just fake and that's what I'm talking about. No, it's not Hollywood fake. I'll speak for me, I wanna be your friend. I need more smart people in my life. Yes, I'd be happy too. I love Los Angeles, one of my favorite places. Last question I have, do you ever take a break from tech?

You have me phone, from your phone, from your theater. Yes, I have four children, I mean, I have Sean, excuse me, I'm calling you Scott, I just did Tivot. I have four children, yes. No, but I mean, do you Sean, excuse me, I'm calling you Scott, I just did Tivot. I have four children, yes, I do. No, but I mean, like, do you ever do like a schedule two weeks or not going to do, you know, one of those things? No, no, I'm working all the time. What do you do to dumb down?

What's the dumbest thing you do? I went to see Barbie twice. No, I love Barbie, I think it's brilliant actually. You know, I do things like the succession podcast, which is I'm a big fan, I had enjoyed that. For example, dumb down, TV. I watch TV mindlessly. Rewatching some bad TV. No, I think it's good. Whatever. I like, you know who I like, the guy who's in play, Jared Butler. I love Jared Butler. Jared Butler. I love him. I don't know

why. I don't even know his name. I, you know, and know, and I, and I, Liam Neeson has a new movie that he beats people. I like that. Listen, Karen. Do you ever? I don't care. Karen, just kill someone for me. It's a hug that's missing something and needs to find it. You're in.

Let me ask you something. I'm going to prescribe something to you. I'm going to write this down. I'm going to write it in my perspective. I'm going to pet it. I want you to do it right now. Okay. I want you to go.

Yeah. Uncelested advice from a white guy. Great. I want to take it and take your shoes off and I want to put your, I want you to put your bare feet on the grass. Oh, don't do that. I have to listen to kind of people on this bowl. Is this the long island girl girl? Go ahead. Put your bare feet on the grass in the sand. You know what?

I have one of those black cats. This connect from, this connect from your tag, from your tag. No, no, no. I love my tag. I'm going to, when I was having a baby, this is my last break. I was having my son. I was holding a blackberry in texting me. Yeah.

Were you really that? I love it. Well, I got an emergency seat section and I was texting Walt Mossberg, who was a great technology journalist, and he was my partner at all the things I did. I was texting him saying eight centimeters, seven, so whatever the centimeters was. And I had an emergency C-section, they rushed me into the room and it was in my hand, it was a square little thing.

And my brother was a doctor at this hospital and the doctor looked at me and they said, your brother said you'd be a problem around the tech. And so they covered my, they covered the blackberry in a plastic bag and then they taped it because you know, like germs. And so it sat there buzzing the entire C-section. It's a great moment in my life. That's just there. Do you, where you were one of those parents,

we were like, because I know you're a great mom. Yeah. Did you tell them, like, put the tablet down, put your phone down, or you're like, yeah, do whatever you want. No, because my ex-wife, and I, I married twice, my ex-wife used to be the chief technology officer of the United States and was a Google executive, so they couldn't put anything over on either of us.

So we had full control of the situation. And I also could call people one time when my sons were doing too much Snapchat. I was somewhere and I brought them in a room. And I said, here is Evan Spiegel, the creator, and we're going to off your snapchat. And they were like, if you don't stop using it, he goes, yes, I'm going to.

It was perfect. I love that. I love that. Steve Jobs, we did a few jobs. Karen, Swisher, I love you. And I love that you're such a great mom. Thank you. Well, that was five minutes long.

That was five minutes long. My God, he's come back. Yeah, we need to do a part to it. I feel like we're just too barely scratched the surface. You would have been so much better. We were so happy. We were supposed to have you. We were supposed to have you on the trip. What happened? What happened? You remember what happened? What happened with that shot? Famous people. No, you put so many fame. What a dick. I don't care. No, no. I know. I do. You know, be more famous than all of you. I know. That's true. We are you doing? No. know, that's cool. Weater, you doing? No.

Oh, no. Okay, sorry. Not today. Not today. Okay. Not today. But not today. Gladiator.

Gladiator. I don't even know her. Such a lesbian. It's so crazy. That way, he sports. So I don't know how that works. All right. I love Gladiator.

Hurry down to LA for some snacks and giggles. I will. And Sean, I'm coming to New York. I'm to LA for some snacks. I will. And Sean, I'm coming to New York. I'm coming to New York with my oldest son. Don't miss the play. Get there before the play. I'm going to the play. I'm going to see Alex Adelman next week.

And then I'll literally, literally, the theater next to me. I will come see you the week after. Okay. Okay. I know that. I try to get him on the podcast to talk about it, but he was too busy, it was too tired.

Who made it? Very tired. I see his wrist. I love your show. Not from the show, just recovering from the carbs. And I don't say I took credits. Sean pulled me aside and Provincetown and said, should I do podcast and I gave him a primer on the whole.

Yeah, well, with the first time you interviewed me years and years ago and yours, I was like, how do you do this? Like, when you do it still long ago. You guys have done a great job. And I really appreciate it. Were you guys, you guys were in P-town? Just to, what, just trying to hit the cliché in the bullseye?

Yeah, we were doing gay things. What do you got? Checkshoes. Cheeshoes. Meaningless sex. Poppers. You guys going to poppers? Poppers.

Yeah. Poppers. I missed, I missed took you for a game and you missed took me for a lesbian. Yeah, we made out for just a free second. It was magical. It was. You guys are freaks.

We were on a drag show. We were on a drag show. All right. We love you. Goodbye. All right. Thank you. Will you text me the video of the car?

I shall. It's really fun. I'll do it. All right. I love you. Goodbye. Bye. Thanks everybody. Thank you, thank you, thank you. That's a great guest. I love her.

It's just a great guest. Really great. Couldn't you just literally, like you said, Jay, just have dinner with her and talk about everything? Well, yeah. How does one person have all that info? I could do a whole hour without you guys. It's just asking questions and questions and questions or three hours.

I know. That's what I told you at the top. I was like, I don't read stuff or go on the internet. I just call her a texture. I'm like, what's happening with this? Yeah. I gotta say, how many podcasts does she have? She's got two right now.

I should start listening to at least one. On with Kara and Pivot. Pivot. Well, and one covers attack and the other one covers journalism? Something like that. I was a guest co-host on Pivot, and it was really fun. You would be kind of know. You might want to know.

You know the. Yeah, but I want to get some, I want to increase my, my, my carousel, I'm a person around podcast. Yeah. You know what else is interesting? Oh, here he goes. Hey guys, here goes.

Just, sorry, just clear. He ordered the deck. Sean's got a nice audience. Sean Hays is now in the middle of he thinks he might have started a buy. So you know, when we start following each other, I guess the door's waiting. I love it. Straight up. And then sometimes in the end, I wave. Good bye. Not as not as best. No, not as good. No, not as good. Not as good as the shark head. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no It was so crowded, so I yelled to the crowd, you can kiss my ass. Goodbye. No, no, no, no. You know, you know, listen, I'm gonna grab hold of the stick and I'm in the pilot seat, and I'm gonna spin around.

It's great to have a car with you. You know, when I wanted to get into her, I wanted to understand, you know. What's that, Will? Well, just, you know, just about the power of computing and what it takes, like for like AI, like is it, are we talking giga, mega, or kill a bite? Bye!

Nice! You guys are better here the best. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.

Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smartness is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Rob Armjurf, Bennett Barbaco, and Michael Granterry. Our next episode will be out in a week wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can listen Smart, less. Every big moment starts with a big dream. But what happens when that big dream turns out to be a big flop. From Wondry and Atwell Media, I'm Misha Brown and this is the big flop. Every week, comedians join me to chronicle the biggest flugs,

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