SmartLess - "Michael Douglas"

Episode Date: October 5, 2026

It’s one helluva’ ride with Mobil Man of the Month: Mr. Michael Douglas. A can of sweet peas with butter, inherently nasty kids, working, not-working, and the Ding Hose. We’re just a humble podcast trying our darndest to learn about the human condition (and contemporary beach attire)… on an all-new SmartLess. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of SmartLess ad-free and a whole week early. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Okay, guys, I'm just walked to my mailbox. I'm going through my mail. That's what I got here. I got a jury notice. Probably toss that. I have a sweepstakes. I should probably enter that. I have a utility bill that's going to be turned off.

All my light's going to be turned off. Okay, I should probably toss that. Oh, what's this? Let me open this really quick. It's an all-new smart list right now. Guys, guess what's coming up in a couple weeks? Yeah, yeah, I know. We've got to mention.

Oh, my God. You have the Hollywood Bowl. Hollywood Bowl. We're going to be at the Hollywood Bowl October 17th. And not just there, like not hanging out, actually doing a show. We're going to be on the stage. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you don't have tickets yet, you go to smartlist.com slash live, is that right?

Wait, what's it? What is it? Smartlist.com slash live. Oh, my gosh, that's pretty easy. And for that, they're going to get a double guest. Is that right? Yep. Two guests.

Yeah. And we got some fun, we got some fun surprises. Oh, yeah. Really? Yeah, we got some fun. prices. All for the price of one ticket. Yeah, all for the price of one ticket. And a nice, beautiful October, October 17th,

correct, right? A fall night out there under the stars. It's going to be gorgeous. And, yeah, you buy a ticket and you can't, you can't put a price tag on a smile. Oh, what a great sell. Will, you're the best. Anyway, it's going to be a great night, hopefully as great

as this next guest coming up. Guys, let's get to the episode. Guys, I was racing out of the house to come be here on time. Yeah. And... Out of the house. Yeah, he had to go across the compound. Oh.

Into a separate structure. Sorry, yeah, yeah. Golf carts, a half-hour golf cart drive. Tell the listener. Wait, guys, everybody just... Oh, I thought... Well, you can keep chewing, well. Just everyone else just...

Just listen to first. God. I know. It's an audio show. Yeah. Anyway. And there is... in front of the window by the front door, lying on the ground is a small bird that had hit

the window, I guess, earlier, and was not yet dead, but deeply wounded, hurt. And I'm racing to you guys. I didn't have chance to stop and help. I had to call back into the house, and Amanda, I think, I hope, is tending to the young bird. But guys, I'm not good about seeing injured animals. This is the second time in five days that there's been a dead bird, a bird that was injured.

Remember, on Sunday, a man, came across an injured bird. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What's going on? What if that bird tonight was sitting at the dinner table just all wrapped in bandages? And it's like, hey, I'm just going to be spending some time in your house from now on.

Now it can speak. Yeah. Boy, that would be fantastic. I mean, I'll never forget, right? Michigan Frog. Isn't that the name of the frog? Yeah, Michigan J. Frog. Michigan J. Frog.

Hello, my baby. Hello, my honey. What was the lesson of that particular cartoon episode? I don't know, but every time, yeah, he said, it was somebody who he was like, oh, my God, you got to hear my, it's like saying, I have a friend who's really funny, watch, and then they don't say anything funny. I have a frog that can sing, watch,

and the frog doesn't sing around anybody else. And then he rents out Carnegie Hall, and the frog just goes, rivet. And he was like, what? Remember that? And then he got his own network, the WB, the WB, yeah. And then he got the WV, the W, the W, the W, W, W, B. Yeah.

I remember. So how's everybody this morning? Good. Scotty's birthday's coming up. I'm going to take him to the Lucas Museum. Boy, speaking of Scotty, that's Scotty. You played us that music that he wrote for the college there. I mean, it's just like, that was stunning, stunning stuff. Thanks, thanks, thanks, thank.

It's like John Williams. I thought it was John Williams. I thought it was when I walked in, you guys were playing it, and I thought it was John Williams. He recorded it with the John Williams Orchestra, basically. Yeah, like a lot of people who played on a lot of, for John Williams. It's a compliment. I mean, it's a talented man.

He's a great. It'll come out, thanks for saying that. It'll come out, like, in a month or so. Like, he'll post it and all that stuff. So you guys, you're taking him to the Lucas Museum. Yeah, didn't that thing? It just opened. I just read an article about that this morning.

Yeah, more banana. So, yeah. Yeah, you just gave me shit, and then you fill your mouth and then start talking. Yeah. No, do it. Do the gross banana sound. Do it. No, I can't.

Respectable guess. No, you're doing it. No, you're doing it. Don't worry. Yeah. But so this episode is, we're in October. This episode is brought to you by October. And the Lucas Museum opened a couple of weeks ago.

It opened on his birthday. Yeah. And I'm very excited to go see that. Yeah. So you're going to the opening on his birthday. We can't. We're going to be in London, but we're going to come back after that. But what are you going to do with your pocket protector?

Yeah. What kind of outfit will you guys be wearing when you go to the Lucas Museum? Full, like, cape. Tattoine. Some sort of a loose flowing robe. Oh, he's got the Tatween hat on. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, I'm super, super excited.

And, you know, I hear there's not a lot of Star Wars stuff in there. No, uh-uh. It'll be hard-pressed to find something in there. No, no, truly. I think J.B. was being serious. I'm being serious. No, I just saw a video of it. Somebody took a video who's already in it, and there's tons of stars.

Of course there's tons of Star Wars stuff. All right. Just the article I read. Jason, you just caused a panic in the nerd community. I was like, what? Why would we go? Maybe what they said was... I'm calling my congressman.

Not as much as you would think. It is much more about the... No, you're making all this up. I was reading in the New York Times this morning. Oh, really? Okay. Another bite for sure. Sorry, Jason, go ahead. Another bite of that.

The karma is so instant. It's fucking bad. And then I'm going to move into this, my aloha bar. Aloha bar. Those bars are great. They're just filled with stuff you don't know. Yeah. No, there's plenty of it.

Why not just eat whole food? They describe it all in the back. These aloha bars, everybody. Oh, God, please. Those are your snacks. You know what I had for a snack before bed last night? Let me guess. Let me guess.

Can we guess? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dumplings. No. A gallon of caramel corn. Nope. Melasses. No.

Hot wings. A can of sweet peas with butter. What? I just ate an entire can of peas. Wait, wait, what are sweet peas? Sweet peas, like a can... That's something I call somebody. Can peas.

Are you... Are you... Did you go into your doomsday bunker and just grab an extra can? What happened? Did you get some tang? Did you make a big jug of tang while you were down there? Yeah.

By the way, that sounds good to wash it down. Wait, I don't understand. Where did you get a can of peas from? I stock my whole pantry with peas because I like it as a snack. I just eat a whole can. Truly. 100%.

Like loose peas. Yeah, loose peas. Into a pot. Now, how are we doing it? Yeah, I put it on the stove in a pot. It takes like two minutes. With warm. With water.

And then you strain it and you put butter on it. And then you eat it. I ate the whole thing. Sure. So you just love the taste of peas. By the way, Sean, again, again, it's not like we don't believe that you ate the whole thing. That's not the issue.

The issue is... Or the butter. Or the butter. The issue is the thing itself. Yeah, peas is something that's just always kind of there Like parsley on a plate And you don't pay it much You don't really pay it much mind

That was them But you made a whole meal out of it Yeah, yeah, yeah Yeah, because they're sweet I don't know, it's like a sweet snack Sure I love, don't you like pea soup? I do

Yeah This is a different That's soup, yeah These are solids Yeah Yeah, all right Well, if our guest is still up, we're going to fire up a conversation with him.

J.B., you don't want to just get rid of that aloh-hbar real quick. Let me just all unwrap the aloha bar. No, I won't. All right, now, fellas, I'm not sure how to properly introduce this guest this morning. To go through his credits would take an hour. To mention his nominations and awards would take another. He's been a steady and consistent presence in our business that is anything but steady and consistent.

For over 60 years, he has managed to act and produce some of the best, most entertaining, most respected, best-remembered projects that business has turned out. But he's also worked at a gas station where he won mobile man of the year. No, of the month. Do you hear a bird? I think the bird's okay.

The bird's alive. He also did a full year of college at UCSB, a full single year. He was almost kidnapped at age eight And he's beaten cancer He's got a new book coming out Covers at all in fine detail But he's stopping by here today

To give us a few bits and pieces It's a great honor to have him here Please welcome the man behind The China Syndrome Wall Street fatal attraction basic instinct One Flew of the Cuckoo's Nest Romancing the Stone falling down The War of Roses

Michael Douglas Many great films folks Michael Douglas Wow Oh my guys Douglas Oh my gosh Nice to see you

That's nice to see you too. Is it Legend Day on SmartLess? I know, I know. What a Troika. I mean, I want to call you, sir. Can I call you Michael? Call me Mikey. You can call me, Steve.

Mikey. I'll never be Mikey. Michael, anything you want to chase. You know, going through your stuff, doing the modicum of research we do here. I just, I'm just knocked out, sir. the amount of highest quality work possible that you've done with your time as well of just commercial success as well and the producing and then just the life you've lived when you're off the set. I just, I don't know how you've packed it all in. So thank God you've written a book about it. So happy you're here to share. What's the name of the book? One hell of a ride.

Okay, perfect title. That's great. Perfect title. That's great. Well, I mean, can we start near the beginning? I mean, I just, I would love to know, you know, obviously your father had a head start with things and showing you what this business is about and what it could be. How early on did you think that you might want to do that as well? Not too early. I think, no. I think probably being the son of,

my mother is an actress too. Yeah, yes. And so I was aware of the business, but I know you guys would find this hard to believe, but we are a fairly self-involved group. We like us. They talk about the order of, you know, God, our country, family, and then a career.

But I think for us that are our business career, kind of comes first. So my folks got divorced at a very young age when I was like about five. They'd just gone out to California. My father just started getting a movie career. And he probably kind of acted like a guy who had never seen a girl before. So he didn't take long before my mom would say, eh, eh, I don't think this is going to work out. I'll stay in New York.

So let's go back to New York. kids. Yeah. So I basically grew up as a New Yorker. Yeah. As part of it as being part of the royal family, we had a small apartment on the west side facing the alley. He was on Central Park West, but it faced the alley.

This was 19, 1948, 49. Yeah, Central Park West facing west is not great. No. No. That's beginning. That's funny. And so I knew them both as working, working people and is, you know, how anxious we all are to get a job.

And they weren't ready to make those sort of, I think, choices between the family and stuff. So my early years was sort of bouncing back and forth between going to private schools, private schools in New York City's and all boys schools and uniforms. And then going out to California on the holidays to visit my father, whose career incrementally was continuing to improve and beginning to get a taste of that. Hollywood. Right. Did you get a feel of that

when you were back in New York and you're at school, you must have, obviously your dad, of course, as you said, started to work more and more and be, you know, was a major movie star. How did that start to impact your life when you were back kind of living in New York life? Yeah.

Well, you know, kids are inherently nasty. Yeah, and the truth is, I don't know. I don't know. Did any of you guys go to camp or anything? Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's awful. Brutal.

Awful. So inherently, if the kids know something more about you than you know about them, and in my case, oh, his kid's a movie star. Oh, he must think he's hot shit. You know, you haven't opened your mouth yet. You know, already, he's hot shit. So you get him.

So you already realize that there were pluses that went along with it. But the minuses were the fact that they had something on you. They could make assumptions about who you were and what your background was, which was difficult to some point. So getting back to your question, Jason, I think that's why I thought this was the last thing that I wanted to be involved in. It was this sort of very kind of self-involved film. My mother was a, you know, she was doing soap operas back east on stage.

and so we had lannies or housekeepers and a big part of our way. But the life out there in Hollywood, watching what your dad was doing, all the things that go along with it, was that the first draw to it, or was it more about the craft and the art?

Because you did study quite vigorously in New York and did a bunch of theater. And like, so when was, when was, at what point, Did the craft sort of motivate you into the career versus maybe the lifestyle, or was the lifestyle ever an attraction to you? No, I think the biggest advantage of being second generation is that lifestyle is not a surprise to you.

Right, yes. You understand the insecurities, the foibles. I'm with my father and his best friends, Tony Curtis, Janet Lee, Gregory Peck, Frank Sinatra. You see them at night. You see them as real people, and their insecurities and this and that. So, you know, the reality to me was when I was in college

and had to declare a major. And it was a little different of what happened, Jason. I went to University of California at Santa Barbara after going to boys' schools my entire life, right, including prep schools, all boys' schools. And I remember my senior year, you know, in prep school, you have your college advisor. And they always reminded me of,

travel agents, you know, they had these brochures in their hands, and they would go through these brochures like a trap. You'd sit there and all of a sudden, but stop, and he pulled out this brochure, and there wasn't any Ivy League buildings or anything else. It was sort of a high shot of a guy walking down the beach carrying a surfboard in a bathing suit room. And on either side of him was a girl in a two-piece bathing suit.

Now this was 1963. I had never seen back east a two-piece bathing suit in my life. Better yet on a college brochure. So I said, hey, I said, I'm going. That looks good. I'm going there, man. I'm going to go there. Didn't you get accepted into Yale?

I did. Yeah. So, and you were like, yeah, but look at the bikinis. Jason, my ass was so tight in boarding schools. I knew I had to. Yeah. You had some catching up. The beaches in New Haven don't really stack up to the beaches in Santa Barbara.

Exactly. So that was actually at 16 or 18, and that was the first big decision. And a crucial decision in my life. Because for a number of reasons. It was 1963, 64, Vietnam War as just beginning. East Coast is where the most political activity was going on. Berkeley was leading the ground. The other UC campuses were picking up on it.

And also the hippie movement, which played a really important part in my life. So what happened after the first year of college at University of California, they politely said, look, I don't think you're ready for college. It wasn't really kicking you out, but why don't you take your years off at your break?

And that's when I went to the mobile gas station, my hometown of Westport, Connecticut, and was the mobile man of the month. Those are the days of the gas station. I mean, you guys don't even remember. Those are the gas station. When you went to your gas, they had your windshield wipers watch. Yeah, check your oil. Oil was checked.

You had your tire pressure checked. You know what you're reminding me of? Remember, you must have known this all too well. Do you remember the sound of that ding? They'd have that hose that go across when a car pulls of the thing. Do you remember that? I love that. That doesn't exist anymore.

I love this. I don't know, it's nostalgic. It's true, that does not exist anymore. Yeah, yeah. Michael, was there a name for that, for that hose? Was it called the dinghose? I'm serious. Watch yourself, James.

The dinghose. Let's see, let's be watching, let's eat in that banana again, J.B. Sean, you had a problem with your ding hose the other day. And we will be right back. And now back to the show. So what happened? What happens?

I came back to college. After my year off, I came back to college. And I began... To Santa Barbara? To Santa Barbara. Had begun to be involved with the, let's say, the artistic group on the campus. That group that held out, hung out in the corner of the student union and raincoats and dark coats and this and that. Sure.

And was introduced to this, you know, this whole other... whole other world. And when I came back, went to the vice chancellor, I said, well, you know, you got to declare a major. I said, what? And by this time, man, by this time I'd, you know, gotten into it a little bit, man.

And so I said, what do you mean? So you have to declare a major. I don't know, man. I said, and so I said, I guess the only thing I know the most about is theater. You know, my dad, I watch this. So still never having an inkling about acting or anything like that. That was when I declared theater as by major

and began my pursuit on that area, on that area, which I was not a natural act. No, but you seem pretty natural to me. I mean, I gather that, you know, you didn't learn how to be such a great actor in class. I bet you were, obviously, you were born with a lot of it. It's in your DNA, but can you, you? Can you recall the sort of your style and your ease with it and your talent with it growing over the years? And did you feel like you had enough under your feet when you went into, say, I would imagine the big launch was streets of San Francisco?

Did you feel that you were equipped enough to take on that role and vault you into an ability to make a living in the business? No. No. Next question. I began with major, major stage fright. Okay. I could not go on, I could not walk onto a stage without a waistbasket right off stage, which I would puke into.

Really? Before I go on to stage, I had total stage fright, and I never thought I'd be overcoming. And the only reason, the only reason I think that I actually stayed at it, was to try to overcome the stage fright. And what did it? So one big thing happened in here at this time was that after my sophomore season,

my stepfather, William Darryd, who I grew up with, was on the board of a new theater called the National Playwrights Conference in Waterford, Connecticut. And what they would do every summer is they would put on like six new plays. And they had a small act a group that would, you know, would do these plays.

And my first summer there, I was just sort of an apprentice kind of cleaning up. But what happened is then they sort of allowed me to be part of the company. And the focus was on the material, on the play. You were only there as an actor as a tool to make these plays better. So you would sit there and you would run through the scenes or run through the show. Then you'd sit on the sidelines and listen to the note. that the director would be giving to the playwright in ways of how to improve the quality.

So at a very early age, right at the beginning, I learned that everything was the material. Everything was about the quality of the material. And that allowed you to get out of your head about the result of your performance. It certainly helped. It certainly helped, but it allowed me to help understand

the choices that I made professionally later on, i.e. it wasn't about the part. It wasn't about it. It's about how good, I think this is going to be a good movie. And because I had these years of formation on it, and then I was, you know, so then after school I was doing off Broadway in New York

and finally got a CBS playhouse, which he did on television, which turned out really well. And CBS back then had a film the vision. I signed a contract. I went out to California and proceeded to make five turkeys.

Five really shitty movies. The one I remember about because CBS also owned Radio City Music Hall and the movie was shown at Radio City Music Hall and this friend of mine,

John Gware, who was one of the playwrights that I had met of New Neal. It called me. I said, John, do you see the show? He said, yeah, yeah. Well, what did you think? He said, Michael, let me just say there were more people up on stage with the Rockettes than there were in the audience. Yeah.

You know, not to sort of go back a little bit, but, you know, it's interesting when I hear you as a young actor and you have that experience with the playwrights and that process, that must have helped you carried you on because you've had such a prolific career also as a producer. and you had an early appreciation of what it is to build a thing that it's about the material, all that stuff. Is that true? That's exactly true. And that's why I can't emphasize it enough of how important it was not looking for parts. So anyway, after these five turkeys,

I was sort of sliding into television. And this is where, you know, where good luck, you know, just good grace happens for you. Two things happened to me early in my life. career was I was doing FBI's and medical centers and this and that and then streets came up and streets was a lawsuit that Quinn Martin who was a very big time producer at that time the fugitive canon Martin and he had all these shows they did they used to do Quinn had this lawsuit with this brand new network called ABC and he won the lawsuit and the result of William the

lawsuit was a two-hour introduction movie to the series and 26-hour episodes committed back in the first season. So they, you know, for guys so many, he said, hey man, this is, this is a real great opportunity. It's a go show. And it starred Carl Malden. Yeah. Yeah. And Carl Malden, you know, was worshipped by Marlon Brando and was just an unbelievably hardworking actor and a really good actor. So that was five years.

I did 104 hours that I spent with Carl Malden. Wow. And also structurally, once again, preludes, three acts, prologues, learning structurally, you know, and what your responsibility as an actor is, and then working with different directors every week and this was so helpful. And was a tremendous opportunity.

and then the God from God that was handed down was one flow of the cuckoo's nest which was a project. Incredible. My father had developed and gone back himself to Broadway to do the show.

It hadn't worked out. I had read in college 20th century American literature the book like everybody who was taking acid. It was their favorite their favorite novel.

And then as I was working away and then I sort of overheard Dad talking about selling the project. When I was there, and I said, oh, man, I never thought about producing. But Dad, please let me try to get the set up. I'll try to get it set up, you know, with you playing the part, with the production company and all this. So the original idea was for your dad to play the lead part, not you? Oh, correct.

No, it was, it was, it was his part. How old, excuse me, how old were you at the time? And this is ambitious. Yeah, it was ambitious. I was, I started about, I was 23. Wow. I was 23 going on. Wow.

When that movie came out, that's amazing. The time the movie came out, I was 30. Okay, okay. But he was so, he tried, so then he said, well, give me a year, let me try to get it going. And so while I was doing Streets of San Francisco, which was being filmed in San Francisco, and we were shooting 26 episodes on location, so six days a week. Right? Six days a week, eight, eight and a half months straight. I was a motherfucker.

I mean, I was, you know, you couldn't ask for any hard or work. At the same time, I was able to hook up with this, my partner, Saul Zanz, over at Fantasy Records in Berkeley, which is up there. So I would then go on over to Berkeley. We would work and nurture it. And so by the time I'd finished the fourth season, We were able to make the movie. Wow. And they wrote your character off to free you up to give you the time to do all the finishing work on the producing, yes?

Correct, Jason. But the reality is, and we all know, and I know you know, that, you know, for a network to say, I have a five-year contract with you, right, but we're going to let you out. Yeah, yeah. It doesn't happen, and it doesn't happen at all. Yeah. Well, what do you think you saw in that project that no one else saw? because you did get a series of passes there.

It did take a while to get it going. And then it does eventually go on to become the film that it wins all five major Academy Awards. You know, and you're 31. And what do you, what do you, it couldn't have been blind luck. What do you think you saw in it that everyone else ended up finally seeing? I think I saw that it was a really, really good story, you know, really, really classic a good story and I think I overcame everybody

saying who wants to see another snake pit that was the big thing who wants to see no one's to see a picture about crazy people and I bought later while I checked out and snake pit did very well

thank you very much it wasn't it wasn't the thing that happened but I think it was the innocence and not having been burnt yet and making mistakes and saw my partner

sort of was the same way. And we were strictly, strictly an independent picture. But we went, you know, and I remember, so Saul and I went to talk to the directors, and most of them were up in the San Francisco Bay Area, and they were all kind of smug. And we tried to talk to them. They kind of kept their cards close to their vest.

You really couldn't feel what it was going to be. Yeah, when did you get Milosh Forman? And we found a me lotion. And we remember looking, something told me about Milo. and a couple of his pictures, his Czech pictures. One was called the Fireman's Ball, which was in one way, was similar to Cuckoo's Nest and that all the characters took place like in one room and had the right sort of humor.

And Milo was in the middle of sort of a breakdown. He was living in the Chelsea Hotel in New York. That's where they happen. He had a friend of his Ivan pastor, also a Czech director, and Miloche would give Yvon pastor all his information about what he wanted Yvon to tell his shrink. And then Yvonne would go instead of, Emilioch would leave, Ivan would go for Milo's to the shrink and share all the stuff and come back. So the fact that when we got the script to Milo, he flew all the way out to California.

And he sat down with us. at my place up in Benedict Canyon and opened the first page and he told us exactly what he wanted to do I remember Saul and I just started crying we were just like okay here's a man who's going to share with us

but we want so much and so how about that? When did Jack Nicholson come on board? Was that Milish's idea? Was it studio? No it was you guys? No, we tried to get Gene Hackman Gene Hackman passed

at what point did your father At what point did your father say, yeah, it's not going to be for me. Go cast it. That's not the way it went down. Okay. Oh, wow. No. The moment came, the moment came when I had to go to Dad and say, Dad, we got it going.

But it's not going to be you play McMurphy. Wow. How'd that conversation go? Yeah. You know, careers had changed. He was in his 60s by then. Okay. And the business had changed.

And it took me even a long time. you guys don't realize you can count on three fingers the good parts you have in your life you know the really good part you have in your life and this was a great part and he was hurt

upset I mean I gave him half of my producing deal which ended up being more money than he made than any picture he'd ever done in his life right sure which made things a little easier but it was the toughest thing I ever had to do.

Oh, I'll bet. How long did it take to repair the kind of relationship after that? That's a good question. I talked about it in my book a lot, and I had the greatest adoration of my father. But he was rough when we were kids. He was out of that abusive generation. Yeah, you did something wrong.

You'd get slapped. He gets spacked big time. Yeah, sir. And so we were, you know, we were pretty scared of him. And not to mention the fact that he just was this omnipotent character, you know, Christ Spartacus and the Vikings. He just larger than life. And he had a temper that went along with it. So our relationship was not as cautious growing up.

And my love for him grew and grew to the day he died in my admiration. but in the early days, it wasn't there. And that, and that seriously didn't help. Yeah, yeah. Maybe you mentioned this in the book. I don't know.

I haven't, I really look forward to reading it, but was there a moment where you guys were able to sort of, you got over it and you guys were able to reconcile? Did you ever have the, I don't know,

what's the word, closure that you wanted from it, from this experience on that? Yeah, we did. I mean, we did, you know, at a professional point in time, which I think really was, for me, it was the year of the year of a fatal attraction

followed by Wall Street. It's not believable. Three months later and winning the Oscar. Yeah, what a year. For me, finally feeling like I stepped out of the shadow of this amazing guy. You know, for the first time ever in my entire life, about two months ago, I watched Wall Street.

Yeah. Oh, wow. I just saw it. Yeah, yeah. I was blown away. Of course, I was blown away. And you say, Michael, there's three roles that are, you know, that an actor gets. You've had, I feel like you've had many.

I know. I was going to say there's an incredible run. First of all, you mentioned fatal attraction. You can't, you don't know how many times in my life I've used the expression. I will not be ignored, Dan. Right, right, right, right. But you, was there, was there a mo? What was that moment?

Because you did have this incredible run of these great roles. What was the first coming out of Cuckoo's Nest as a producer, and you've done streets, you've done all this stuff. What was the first film role that you were like, okay, now I'm in a whole different league here now. This is getting the attention, and now I'm getting the offered the roles I want. Do you remember that?

Was there a signature? Well, yeah, but here's the gate. I was an Academy Award-winning producer. Yeah. But I was a television actor. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You all know.

That's really still. It's gotten a lot better. But back then, man, it was, Two separate rails. You were in television, and I think before me, only I think it was Steve McQueen and Clint Eastwood, who had made that transition from getting into films.

So I got the Oscar, I set up at the production office as a producer, and I'm hanging on to what I realize is my biggest strength, which is understanding material, knowing good material, not worrying about my part, not worrying.

And you said a good roles, but a lot of my movies, you know, Glenn Close had a great role. Sharon Stone had a lot of times it was never about my starring role. I just wanted to be in a good movie. And I think it was better to be in.

Yeah, but you shone through. You shone through no matter, even though you say that, despite you were, yeah, man, I mean, integral to all of those. It's what I've watched and studied and admired for so long about you, Michael, in your career, is that it's so interesting to hear you put to words

what I guess I've been absorbing, which is that you've always been servicing the film, the story. I've never watched you and thought, oh, this guy is doing me a favor and giving me a performance that he thinks I bought a ticket to come see. Right, right. You've always behaved on screen assuming that the audience has bought a ticket

to see the film, not you. And so you've always just disappeared and you've been us on the screen. You've been this trustworthy proxy that is experiencing whatever story is going on around you. And it's just been, it's been, it's been a real gift that you've given.

I can just speak for myself. You've given me, you have been this great proxy, this great tour guide that have brought me through so many great stories and environments and challenges and complications and decisions and successes all through your characters in these stories. It's just been stunning. I just couldn't imagine having a better career, truly.

Chase, thank you very much. It is true. The one note that I hear more than anything else from people is, you know, when I see your name, I don't know what it's going to be, but I know it's going to be good. That's exactly right.

That's exactly right. Yeah, I mean, what a compliment. And I remember hearing his story once this guy was telling about a big movie star, I'm not going to name names, a big movie star went in, he was having, this is 30 years ago, and he went into a studio and a well-known studio executive, who we all know as well.

And the movie star was saying, you know, and he came in late, and he said, I want to do this, I'm going to do that, and the executive stopped him and said, hey, motherfucker, I'll put the guard at the gate in your role. You're not the star, the movie is the star. Right, that's right. And it always stuck with me that story.

Like that idea, it kind of goes back to what you were saying, Michael, just always, it's the story, it's the film, right? And it's important. Even hearing you say it now, it's like I've just absorbed that and been like, yeah, I've got to remember that. I got to remember that. So starting after that, then, you know, I got a run of good productions. because after Cuckoo's Nest

I had romancing the Stone which I wasn't going to play the part I couldn't get an actor to play the part you know I tried to get and then finally I was fortunate enough the studio won at Deborah Winger that's another story and then

and then and then found the studio you know had met Kathleen Turner was she'd done a sexy picture she made. No, not the heat of the night. No, with Bill Hurt. Yeah, I know what you're talking about.

I can see the poster right now. Was that before or after China Syndrome? That was after. And then China Syndrome, and originally I wasn't going to play the part, Richard Dreyf was going to play the third role. Such a great movie. And then the Juul of the Niles.

So I had like four more hits. as a producer. I happened to be in them, but didn't have parts. But I had, you know, I was developing a movie called Star Man. Oh, Jeff Bridges did. Yeah. Oh, yeah, I love that movie. I wasn't approved.

I wasn't approved as the actor. No shit. Yeah, no, I was produced as Jeff was. You know, so there was still a lot of that for a while. We'll be right back. And back to the show. And then what was the thing that gave you sort of the box office, to be able to be the film star,

was it that year of Fatal Attraction Wall Street in 87? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that was really kind of where it was okay. It's put to bed now, or at least I did. I mean, that's bizarre to me to think, to think that it was that late. Yeah, I had some hostilities about it.

I mean, I did about the, well, about the whole television thing versus feature film, it's always been. But as a producer, though, you must have been cognizant of sort of mind, the pocketbook and what star could translate to a presumed base level of ticket sales based on what they did in the last film and all that stuff. So you were probably aware a little bit of what the studio's agenda might have been and how it kind of made sense, even though it probably didn't feel any better. I was, Jason, but I was so fortunate from the very beginning that I only went on this is the best person forward.

I mean, I never ever took an audience's reaction into it. Another picture like that would be falling down. You know, falling down, which I love this picture that nobody thought of it was good work at all. But I just realized how important those years at the O'Neill and then all those stripped episodes really just played such an important part and reminding me about. structure and telling me able to tell a good story and also the reality that if I didn't do the part man

there's 10 other people that can... Well, you know, most of these incredible characters that you've played, they're men who are seemingly in control but they're really they're deeply flawed and what is it

about those characters that for you make it so fun to play and to explore and to kind of make your own I think it's just the generation that I grew up with. I think the Vietnam War made the gray area. Who's the good guys? Who's the bad guys? My dad's generations, they had white hats and black hats.

My generation, it's a little murky. Sure. And I seem to be attracted to the person. Exploring that. Yeah, because it does seem like, yeah, you're mentioning the generation before, there was this artifice that the male role needed to adopt or learn or carry. And then, you know, you playing these parts where the fun for the audience is watching these cracks in that veneer, in that artifice, and seeing the vulnerabilities and the humanity in these outwardly seeming put-together men.

Yeah. And even looking back to Cuckoo's Nest, we could not find an actress to play Nurse Ratchet. Oh, wow. Wow. Because the politics for women at that time, you don't want to be a villain. Right, right. Oh, interesting. Guys, guys love the villain part, right? We, oh, man, we want to play the villains, the most interesting part back then. Anne Grant Magnf, Colleen Doherst, Geraldine, Paige, Charlene Page. They all turned it down.

Wow. They didn't want to play the part. Let me ask you guys a quick question. Yes, sir. With all of your successful careers, man, Jason, I brought you a wonderful actor, but hell of a director, man. Hell of a director, too. Thank you, sir.

Sean, what can I say? You guys weren't together on Will and Grace, didn't you? I know. We did. We did. We did. We did. Yeah.

How did you come about it on this? And then I just see that you're live at Hollywood. bold. So this is a whole big thing, man. I mean, it's the greatest gift. It's the greatest gift that's ever come to the three of us. This is an accident. We get to hang around and be idiots.

And we get to talk to folks like you and have these conversations. And fortunately for us, there's a bunch of people out there that are willing to listen to us. Yeah, days like today, it never feels like a job. But days like today, talking to you is just, it's unbelievable. Yeah, I mean, and. And like these are, Michael, when you were on Will and Grace, I would have never asked you these questions.

But now I'm not, now in this form, I wanted you so badly. The producers told you not to, right? Yeah, I was just like blown away that I was acting with you in a scene. Can I just ask, so you do all this, I mean, again, as Jason pointed out, and we all know, you have this incredible, you know, all these incredible roles and all these incredible projects that you produced and that you shepherded and that you believed in when other people didn't. And you do all this stuff, and then you, in the last,

I don't forget when you did the first one, but you kind of dipped your toe and went fully into the Marvel world, and all of a sudden you're doing a whole different genre of thing. Was that like, was that just like just another gig, or was like stepping into another world for you after all that you had done? Right. Well, let me just back up a little bit, but it helps to explain it. So what I've done in the book, you know, obviously I've,

My child, I think is pretty interesting in terms of my mother being Bermudian and my father, a Russian Jew, and how they came together at Academy, and all that stuff. And growing up. But then what I decided to do, as a producer, a book that really meant a lot to me was a book called Memo by David O. Selznick. And if you ever get a chance or ever interest to know what a producer does, read memo.

So what I thought I would do rather than just continuing my history was I took 10 chapters and I took 10 chapters I took 10 movies and I go in depth I mean a whole length 30, 40 pages

on each of them talking about how it was created and initiated what the steps were that came through it all what personal involvements there might have been in the making of it. And so that takes up a

good chunk. And then for me, I remember I got cancer. I got stage four cancer and things weren't looking great. And so this is moving

on after a whole crux of stuff. And after my cancer and after I survived and got out of it. I was really fortunate enough to have this Liberace project with Stephen Soderberg and Matt Damon and Candelabra, which was great.

And then I just said, well, look, what haven't I done? What do I want to do now that mortality is more of an interesting subject for me than it was before? And I said, well, you know, I've never done any green screen. I haven't done a green screen picture and that was how that that sort of started

and so you know I looked around the agents and the Ant Man thing came up and it was fascinating and I'm sure you guys are familiar with green screen but you know it's another type of acting it's interesting

it's weird and some people are really good at it and then the other thing is they said what else happens you've done Well, I love comedy. I love comedy. I'm not particularly good at it, but I just appreciate it. I never know why it's not nominated for Oscars every year.

We all appreciate comedians and funny people. So the situation with Chuck Lloyd Allen Arkin. Oh, yeah. The Comiskey Method, yeah. So I said, man, what a chance to learn, you know, fuck, to learn comedy. I mean, Chuck Lorry said. Alan Arkin.

So I did that. I did that. And then finally, I said, I've never done a period picture. Every movie I make is about contemporary situations and all of that. So the Ben Franklin series came up. Eight episodes took all year or that. And after that, I realized I was tired, you know, deeply tired.

But a lifetime, a lifetime of tired. and I sort of stopped working, not retired, stop working, but I love not working. I love not working. Well, it's given you a chance to sit and review how well, how well you have spent your years. I mean, good God. You know what, Michael, we ask a lot of that.

It's funny, you just answered a thing. We ask a lot of people, we say, you know, you've done this, and you've been, you're known for this genre or whatever, and we say, is there anything that you haven't done? And I like the idea that you kept asking yourself, what is the thing I haven't done and really gone for it and there's a sort of

I think that's a great way to approach it right to like how can I challenge myself now is that what you would say to young actors to have that mindset well I don't know what to say to him now but it's so damn tough it is so damn man

you know no there's no I mean casting you don't see a casting agent anymore you got to self tape they never even have offices anymore You go in and see your casting agent, you know, and they get to know. It's so tough. I've got three kids, all who are actors, they're doing okay. But it's tough.

But to finish this off, so all that happened, then back when I had the cancer, there was a guy named Shane Salerno who, it did a rewrite for me really early on, and I was shocked how few people reached out to me with cancer. Maybe something about cancer. They don't want to get, you know, but nobody, nah, you get much, Shane, who I hardly knew, he every day would write me these, you know, you can do it, kick it, you're going to make,

you're going to be fine, no, you can't. Anyways, Shane's got a literary agency kind of company now, and then he just kept pushing me, hockey me, about doing a book, and doing a book, and then I thought about it, and I think, you know, between dad and I, now we got 90 years, 90 years in the first. In the film industry, 160 movies.

My dad was a very prolific, he wrote about 10 books. So just for a legacy, I figured, you know, I would keep it going for a legacy to write the book. And then also for my memory, because you forget a lot of shit. Were you happy with your level of recall? I have a hard time remembering last week. But, like, what was that process like? I would imagine you wouldn't know how good it's going to be

until you start getting into it. But it sounds like it's crystal clear on all of this incredible detail. Jason, I'll tell you my secret right now. Hire someone to start looking, going back over your diary and just start placing it together each year because you have no idea. And then in the book I talk about it a lot, where the years of some heavy drug use messes up.

And be careful what you wish for because all of a sudden, I had a big production company. I could finance movies. I had people running it. I lost an ability to pick one thing at a time. And I was a little overwhelmed. Yeah. You know, had issues with my son.

He was in federal prison for seven and a half years, my first marriage. So I looked back and happy. they're talking about the demise and the downfall of cocaine for one. Yeah. Same. Same. When you do look back

and you've written this book and you talk about all these things and these are just life, right? I mean, these are things that happen in life. And I feel like now we're all in our mid to late 50s could play, easily could play 40s, right? J.B. 30s, maybe.

But, you know, when you look, back are you are you despite the things that you know you had the great success and thing in and in tough times when you look back to you go like hey you know what it kind of you feel okay about it in that way like do you feel oh shit yeah I mean

yeah well first of all you know Hollywood royalty I mean you know which really this is netbo thing really pisses me off because I don't know a career where a father or mother don't try to help their son or daughter

getting into their business and this and that. And why they picked on this because of the well-known aspect of it. But yeah, no, like I said, what a ride, man. It's been unbelievable. And other than too much drug abuse, I can't, you know. Sure. Sorry, J-B, I was going to say, it's funny you say the NEPO thing. It's like, we don't chase down when we see a plumbing truck

that says McGlynn and sons. Exactly. Hey, you nepo asshole. That's what I was going to say. It's not exclusive to the entertainment industry. There are sons and daughters of... But they make it like it's like we're the only one, you know. Well, you manage to weather that all very well, seemingly.

Is there something that you can say to the children of parents? Our kids or kids in the enterprise, but kids in any industry that feel like they might have a birth. of living through or up to the shadow of the generation before them. Is there something that really helped you navigate that as successfully as he did? Recognizing good material. I mean, not counting on it. I mean, getting something, the problem that we all have is we don't play an instrument

and we don't paint or we don't write. You know, we're standing there. But a good piece of material, man, a good piece of material helps the, helps things along well. But personally, that sort of conversation you have with yourself about, am I even going to try to live up to or even exceed what has come before me?

What was it that you identified in yourself that gave you kind of the inner strength to do that? I think it was inherited from my father who had incredible stamina, tenacity, was a motherfucker. And, you know, it was just really,

really, really tough. Yeah. And could, you know, hang on there. This is, as we all know, this is not a business

if rejection is, is going to mend you over, you know? It's rejection is the fuel. I think it makes you tougher and stronger. And I think, have to create your own identity.

You have to trust in yourself rather than try to become an image of a relative. That's true for life. Because for all the sudden, when I just, I'm 82 now and I've just recently said, hey, man, with all this, there's not a lot of two-generation movie stars, you know what I mean? No, sir. I can't name that. So pat yourself on the back, man, and, you know, getting, get to get yourself on the back, man. and, you know, getting...

Fuck. Yeah. Well, you sir, that would have been another great alternate title for your book there. A big, big pat on the back, because, my God, you get it up. I was going to call it before I forget. But... Wait, wait, that's a great title.

But they all said, what, they think you got Alzheimer's? What's this problem? They also... Yeah, yeah. Take it for me. You mentioned that you had somebody go through all your diaries and stuff, but I actually am legit want to know. Have you been good about keeping...

a really good diary all these years of stuff that you've done? Oh, no, I have no diary at all. I mean, I just have my secretaries, you know, my address. My address where I would, I mean, I forget what year I made a movie. Uh-huh. And then slowly doing that. And then I was fortunate enough to work with enough actors who had better memories than I did. Oh, great.

Yeah, for sure. Oh, great. Well, listen, I'm going to let you go. And I cannot thank you enough for doing this. and talking with us. And I know once I read the book, I'm going to thank you again for putting it all down on paper. So a huge, huge thanks to all you've done,

including this hour with us today. Yeah, thanks, Michael. I'm glad for the thrill. We'll appreciate it, guys. You do a wonderful job. So keep it up. Thanks, Michael. Okay.

Yeah. We'll see you there. Take care. What a thrill. All right. Thank you, sir. Thanks, Michael. Bye-bye.

Well, that was, I mean, we didn't even get to fatal track. We didn't, we didn't get to basic instinct or the game. I know. I know.

Like, I wanted to ask him about fatal attraction. I will not be ignored, Dan. His relationship with Danny DeVito that still I know.

Jason? I know. I wanted to ask, but I didn't know. Let's bring him back. Let's do a two for this guy. I think Michael Douglas needs minimum two episodes. Yeah, for sure.

Really stunning what he's, what he's done. Well, it's funny. When he was on Will and Grace and I was like, I want to ask him about all that. And then he's on today, I was like,

I want to ask him about and all that. And I didn't do either. Can't do it. No, but... Gotta read his book. Yeah. Yeah, I guess you got to read his book, which he'll... But it's just...

It's stunning, and he was saying, you know, yeah, it's hard to come out to step out from the shadow of somebody like Kirk Douglas. It's, you know, like as he said, Spartacus for Christ, just not alone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And not... He not only did it.

I mean, he did it... He exceeded his father's legacy. Yeah, he really did. And because he had so many roles that were so... different and was so long-lasting over so many decades and generations of people who appreciate him as a movie star yeah um it's it's it's remarkable truly remarkable i always referenced fatal attraction is the perfect movie scene to scene like just the way it's built is is incredible and you know

that you know that different ending right is that adrian lyne yeah adrian lyne line line what's that yeah yeah he's amazing but you know she wasn't shot in the fucking head at the end originally She killed herself. She sliced her own neck. Really? Yeah. And you can see it online. Did they shoot it?

Yeah, you can watch it. Yeah, it's wild. And I think the whole end. So they tested that and it didn't. That's exactly right. And the audience is like, well, that's not very satisfying. I want to see her get killed by, you know, somebody else. Oh, wow.

And so, yeah. It's wild to see it because she, and then she frames him because his fingerprints are on the knife that she kills herself with and then the cops show up. Yeah. Oh, and, you know, the other thing is she, had a really solid alibi. Bye! Bye!

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