SmartLess - “Phil Lord & Christopher Miller”

Episode Date: June 6, 2022

Our Surprise Guest(s) this week are the dynamic duo: Phil Lord and Christopher Miller. “The Hall & Oates of film & television” make us a few table-side Caesar salads and tell us their true Hollywood stories. After all, the ladies love a coupl’a cartoonists doodling away in the studio.Listen ad free with Wondery+. Join Wondery+ for exclusives, binges, early access, and ad free listening. Available in the Wondery App: https://wondery.app.link/smartless.Please support us by supporting our sponsors!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

I'm up. I'm up. I'm up. Are we starting? What is this? Is anybody here? Hello? Oh, guys, nobody's here. This is weird. Finally. Just a moment of silence before we start the show. Oh, welcome to the Smiles. Smiles. Sean, congratulations on a very successful run of your show. You guys have rapped now, and do we know yet if we are traveling with this huge success? Yes, we are traveling to the Broadway. By the way, I didn't even tell you guys, there was a, there was a reviewer like three weeks ago that said, I'm not even making this up.

He said, you know, he raved about the show and it was a really good report. Although, before they go to Broadway, they need to remove Sean's plastic wig and his fat suit, neither of which are true. No, no, no, no. So where'd he go? I'll send it to you. And I was like, wait, that's my real hair. And I'm actually really fat in life. No, you are not. Absolutely not. Well, you know my stomach. Plus, I'm wearing those old fifties clothes. So my stomach sticks out. Oh, well, why does that leave you? Isn't that hilarious? Well, you read that. What did you, what happened?

Wait, you're not wearing a fat suit? Sean, honestly, how did you feel, there it is. There it is. The cookie bag. The cookie bag. How did you feel after you read that? Yeah, it's hurtful. I laughed. What do I care? I mean, yeah. I have laughed too about reading some bad things about me, but it does leave you a little winded. I was fine with that. I really honestly, truly laughed. I think that's really funny that he thought I was wearing a fat suit and a plastic wig because my hair is shellacked. Well, I can't wait to see it in New York.

Will, I know you'll be there with me. I'm going to be there. I'm going to 100%. In fact, hang on, Will. Sean, is that a glass of milk that you're sipping? Listener, Sean's sipping a squat glass of milk. And I just, it just, I don't think I've ever seen anyone literally drink a glass of milk. Just on its own. Yeah. There's no peanut butter sandwich. Didn't that stop with the little newspaper boys on the corner selling papers for five cents? Isn't that the last time, last time I saw a glass of milk being. Say, mister, say, mister, over here, say, mister. Gee, it's neat to be a news boy. Hey, we know about it.

It's a glass of milk. It's ice cold. It tastes so good. Ice cold glass of milk, huh? Just something for the cookie pouch down there. You know what I love? He's setting, he's. It's got to go with the cook. What do you call it? The cookie? What? Cookie bag, cookie pouch. He's just setting a nice base for something for the cookies to plop into, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. A nice pool. Oh, I love about you, Sean. God, you're so simple. It's unbelievable. Your guest must be furious at you by now, Will.

My guest, you know what? My guests are going to be furious. Double booking. If, if they were, if they were shitting people, if they were shitting, that was what I guess for you. Hull and Oat. We're going to keep guessing Hull and Oats until they come on the goddamn show. And, uh, you know, but you know what? These guys make music of a different kind. Oh, they make music with their art of a different kind. More of a visual art. These fellas, they like to take ideas.

Well, they like to write ideas and then they like to put them up on the big screen. That's right. These guys, and they like to do it. Lord Miller. They like to do it in every single discipline they've directed. Lots of movies, lots of movies that I've done, including Lego Movie and Lego Batman. I can't go any longer because you guessed it, it's Lord and Chris Miller. It's Hull and Oat. Look at them.

I couldn't even get into the preamble. Well, who else is there? There's just, there's only two that know how to write it and put it up on the screen in its glorious form. Hull and Oats and us. How do you guys respond to that? You're the Hull and Oats of film. I mean, I take that as a huge compliment. I got so excited for two seconds when I thought I was Hull and Oats. Wait, which one, which one would you be?

Yeah, which one would you be? I'm going to go with, I'm going to go with Daryl Hall. Daryl Hall and John Oats. Daryl is the Hutch, not the Starsky. Which one's Starsky? Daryl has the blonde hair and Oats has the mustache. Okay, so John Starsky, who's who then? I mean, you guys are both dark hair?

Neither one, I guess I can grow a mustache easier, so I guess, but you have the curly hair, so like that's the most. It's a real dogfight. Yeah, let's take more time with this. Just, let's not rush into the answer. Hey, by the way, Jason, why don't you say that for your podcast, Grinding to a Halt, which starts next week on Wondery. Gentlemen, welcome.

Yeah. Welcome to the show. I don't know how you find the time to spend a silly 60 minutes with us, but thank you. And why are you guys, where are you right now? We are in our office that is, we finished the week of March 2020 and never actually worked out of, and it's our first day here in the office, so. Is that true story? Yeah.

True story. It's been awesome to pay the lease on this for the last two years. Yeah. How weird. Now, do you, for the last two years, you guys have been doing what you do remotely, or are you guys going over to each other's houses? We did, like, partially remotely. The things we've been working on recently are the sequel to Spider-Verse,

which we've been going in on a couple days a week, and then we've been making this show, The After Party for Apple TV Plus, and we, you know, we shot that for real in person with real human beings. Now, do you guys prefer to be on the set and directing stuff and mixing with folks, or do you prefer that more typical sort of life of a writer, where it's just the two of you at a shared desk, looking at each other, pitching ideas, typing? That's right, arm and arm. One arm over Chris, the other on the keyboard.

I do, the left side of the keyboard, he does the right side of the keyboard. Oh my God, you guys, no, no, no, that may be the thing. Don't you hate it when you go to a restaurant and you see that loving couple, and they're on the same fucking side of the booth, and they're not sitting face to face. They decide to sit hip to hip on the same side, looking out at the restaurant, letting everyone see how fucking in love they are. Hey, Jason, you know what?

Do you know how much Amanda would give for you to sit next to at a restaurant for once? Forget it, it's not happening. I'll read you the text. You know I didn't even dance with her at our wedding, you know? Excellent. Is that true? That's how allergic I am to dancing. I'm a serious non-dancer.

Well, then all I want to ever see you do is dance now. No, I'll have to start drinking again for that. You're not allergic to, no, it's just, that's ego, man. I mean, if we're going to strip it away, that's just all ego, and Phil and Chris want to talk, we all want to talk to you about. This is an honor. Yes, we were here. What's happening?

I think, Phil, did I meet you once before at a, no, no, actually. At like, McShelley's or something. No, no, at, no, no, it was Marino's. And Marino's, that's right, which is right near our Lego offices. That was like our special treat, is they would let us out and let us walk three blocks in the air. Yeah, it was so, you were so nice to come up with. What happens at Marino's?

Caesar salad. Is that still there? Marino's is great on Melrose. It's great, yeah. On Melrose, yeah. It's super old school, very fun, like kind of like red booths, Italian restaurant. Oh, and they make, they mix a Caesar in front of you?

One of those. They mix a Caesar in front of you, a Mexican dish. They really do, and then the guy will come out every once in a while and go like, hey, listen, it's not a Mexican dish. No, but he'll come out and he'll go, he'll go up. The guy will come out and he'll go, listen, now it's not on the menu, but I'm gonna let you know we've got a nice fresh brazol that we just made,

a beautiful brazol. For real, right, Sean? And they'll bring it to you. I was there with Jimmy Valoli years ago, and the guy's like, we've got this fresh brazol. I don't tell anybody. Like it's a state fucking secret. That's so true.

Brazol, I'm gonna hit socials on this one. Now wait, Phil and Chris, so Jason, he mentioned, so would you rather be in a room, arms linked on a keyboard. Talk to us about how, this is how you guys started. I mean, that's what you guys, you still do, but that's how you guys started writing together. What was, how did that happen? Where did you meet?

Yeah, how did you guys start writing together? We met in college, freshman week, somebody said, oh, I know someone just as weird as you. What school? I had Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire. Beautiful, beautiful time. We, Phil convinced me to take an animation class, and we started making student films,

and somehow got our way making Saturday morning cartoons back when that was a thing that still existed. Sounds like you guys were crushing a lot of ass in college. Oh my God, let me tell you. Talk us through some of that. Oh man, I tell you, the ladies love a couple of cartoonists doodling away in a studio. Oh, I so wish I could do that.

Are you guys almost done with that pen? Just the risk control. Yeah, yeah. Now, do you guys didn't, did you go to school for that, or did you guys have a plan? I was a government major, so I mean, it was, it was sort of a thing we were doing on the side is making films and stuff like that.

What's the difference in a government major and a political science major? It's the same thing, that's what they called it there, because they have to be weird. Oh, all right. Right, just to be different. Are you still really into politics? Not that we're going to get into politics, which is curious.

I am, I am still into politics. It's very infuriating. And do you enjoy sort of like trying to trojan horse in some political sort of messages maybe in some of your stuff? Don't answer that. Don't answer that. Protect your business.

Protect your business. Blink, just blink. I think everything is political in the world. That's right. That's right. What an outrageous statement. I tell you what. So when you guys first started making shows and stuff,

how did you know you clicked just the same sense of humor in the same sense of kind of like what's the thing where you're like, oh god, this guy's funny or cool? When we were in college, when we met each other, we were like, we felt like kindred spirits. We both loved, you know, Harold and Maude and Steve Martin movies and all this other stuff. And we all just had like the same.

And there was no fox affiliate in Hanover. So Chris's sister would mail VHS tapes of The Simpsons. I worked with Chris's sister. That's right. You did. Oh, really? She says, would you please tell her hi. Time out.

Time out what? Yeah, yeah. She worked with us at aggregate back in the Universal Days. It's true. Oh, I thought you were going to say she worked on that ice capade special you did with Alyssa Milano that Kimmel sent us the other day. She read for it.

She got pretty close. We had her back a few times. Don't worry. I'll send it to all you guys who Kimmel sent it to us the other day. No, we had a real heavy sweater on. Now, how do you? Now, listen, you guys are jokingly saying

that you were weird in college. And I was pretty weird at that age as well. As I think we all were. Anybody was. We all go through our awkward periods. And we all think we're kind of funny. And we've got like this odd sense of humor. But there's a big, big spread between that

and actually being able to like make it and use that in a way that actually brings success and futures. And how did you guys get from being kind of awkward, funny, smart guys at Dartmouth to being up there on top of the mountain? I mean, I'm sure it's a long answer, not longer than the question. But let's hear it. Oh, what a fucking journey. I just had to go put my winter clothing in the basement.

Winter Vegas and won a few slots and came back. You assholes. Guys. Well, go ahead. Irrational confidence. Yeah, I think that was. Yeah, we were in San Francisco. I was doing an internship at ILM.

And Phil came to visit me. And we took a hike to Coyt Tower and looked out over San Francisco famous for beautiful movie making or maybe it was the wrong city, but it was the right state. And we were like, let's go try to make it in Hollywood. And we decided then there. You had an actual moment. First of all, Sean, tell Tracy what ILM is.

Oh, yes. It's the Industrial Light Magic, which was George Lucas. Is George Lucas coming? Was George Lucas' company? And they do all the special effects for all the movies and of all time. Right. So you guys are up there and you're like,

you have this moment. You're inspired and you guys are looking out and the sun is. Yes, we had like a movie moment. It was very romantic, even. But at that point, you guys had been working on, you had made some cartoons. Yeah, I want to know that. What were those first cartoons?

We made, in my dorm room, we made two short films that we hand animated. One was like a self-portrait that I did called Self Mambo. Yeah, it's just fine. And then Chris's was called Sleazy Goes to Hell. Yes. And then I had a character named Sleazy, the wonder squirrel, who was in the comic strip I did for The Daily Paper.

It was this really sophisticated humor. We were the only people in the class who liked jokes. So these are sketched now. Is it like a flip book? Is that how you kind of like did the film? Yeah, you shoot it on. We shot it on a 16 millimeter camera, frame by frame. And then it was the olden days.

It was a bolex that was just pointed at the floor with duct tape on the legs and a thing with jam. And you do one little sketch that moves the hand a little bit more and then another piece of paper. Very tedious. And thankfully, you never have to do that again. But yeah, but here's the thing. So you guys do that.

You quite literally start in the most basic form of animation. You guys are just doing it literally by the numbers. Earning it. Earning it all the way through. Then you guys go and you do a bunch of series and you do Clone High. You do all these great things. And then you do Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs,

which we'll get to in a second. Right. And just for a trade, just since you're doing that well for Tracy, it's Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, the Lego movie, 22 Jump Street, right? Yeah. So what I was going to get to is, and kind of what Jason said, like when did you guys know that you were cool

and kind of shed all that stuff? It's almost like what I realized was did you guys, did our appetites or people's appetites for what you guys do change? Or did you guys change the appetites by the stuff that you guys were doing? I feel like you guys have been really consistent in what you do.

And it's taken a while for people to catch up with, hey, these guys are doing something really cool. Yeah, I mean, we were super ahead of our time. Way ahead of our time. Visionaries. We're actually talking to them in the future right now. I know that you'll never say that about yourself, but I think that you guys are.

I've known you guys for a long time. I think that's totally fair, yeah. I mean, we spent eight years working on sitcoms before we really ever got to make our own thing. And so we got to learn a lot from a lot of great people. We got better, I think. I mean, if you look at our student films, they're very bad. They have moments.

Yeah. But I think that the thing that we always had was we didn't want to do something that had ever been done before. And so we were always trying to figure out, how do we do something new? How would we do something that I haven't seen a million times before?

Because there's so much crap out there. It's you need to find a way to differentiate yourself. You're just making something to make it. It's boring. But when did you guys notice that you had been embraced either by the community or the public, or maybe both, such that you knew that your humor would be accepted?

Yeah, because it's like, oh, it's a Lord Miller thing. So anything that feels subversive, or I feel like I should be laughing, but I'm not yet. And the audience felt like, well, I just need to catch up. I need to be a little bit smarter. Sort of like, it's like the Radiohead thing, right? Like, Jesus, I cannot tap my toe to this song, but I know it's my fault.

And I got to get with it. I listened to OK Computer one more time. I mean, that's where you guys sit. Thank you, I guess. That's very generous. I think we're just sort of like too blockheaded to change. I just think it's awesome. There's a brand there, you know, that people just like,

oh my god, their humor is super duper smart, and it is something different. And it takes a long time for me to get it, because it must be funny, because it doesn't seem like it's funny right now. It's your fault if you're not laughing. That's what we want the audience to say. We'll be right back. And now, back to the show.

So you guys worked on sitcoms. You guys were, and tell the audience what shows you guys worked on. Well, not to brag. Primarily. There was a Louis Guzman sitcom called Louis. Yeah. But we actually, the one that anyone remembers

is How I Met Your Mother, which we did. We worked on the first season of. Right. So you guys worked on that show. And I would say, again, would you think that that experience of working on a show like that with a big writer's room, did that help you hone how you told jokes in movies?

Because I love those writing room experiences. They're great. And they teach you so much. You get so many at-bats in a room full of funny people. You get to absorb a bunch of different points of view on writing and comedy. You have this amazing safety net where you could try things out and people help you save you from your worst instincts.

And then it's so collaborative. And that's the part that really helps you when you're making movies, is that there's a class of filmmaker that's like a genius that you should not mess with. And they just like, it comes to them from Zeus. And then they put it on the page and on the screen. And that is not us.

Our thing is much more like, let's find it, let's make mistakes, and especially in an animated film. But on any movie, you're getting the benefit of all these smart filmmakers that are part of the crew and part of the cast. And that experience in those writer's rooms really helped us. And it's allowed us to be flexible and be open to ideas

from everyone. And part of the thing is to get a great cast of people who can also provide stuff, working with Will was awesome because he was able to, I mean, yeah. Well, you know, it's a good ending, but I was talking about Will Forte and Will Farrell. Oh, right, yes, Forte, fantastic, and Farrell. They both give you a lot of options.

And then we just did this show, the after party, where it's just full of a bunch of funny people. And they all were able to bring a lot of stuff. And that openness that you learn in the writer's room to following the best idea was a great training ground. I think the other thing that really helps you is that you're also trained to listen for the audience and whether they are laughing or engaged.

And that ethic is really important to our filmmaking process, just understanding what it's like to sit in a theater and experience people's vibe while they watch it and respecting that enough to go, OK, it's not that these 500 people are dumb. It's that we failed to convey our idea. Right, and to give and to leave room for them to appreciate it, too, in that way,

that there is a kind of a rhythm between you and the audience, that it is a show, that you're not making the jokes to make yourselves laugh. You're making it to be funny and to be entertainment. And they have to be able to have the room to enjoy it and engage. You talked about all these people. You guys are such great collaborators.

Not only are you a collaborative team yourselves, but you guys have collaborated with a lot of people over the years, multiple times. For example, I'm one of the few people who have seen the great pilot, I think, that you did with the Lonely Island Boys before they did that sonnet called Awesome Town, which was so funny. And I remember thinking, like, what the fuck is this?

And who are these guys? It was so crazy. Now, of course, it wasn't going to get picked up, because it was way too insane. But we held the grudge about them not picking it up for quite some time. So we made that thing. We tried to sell it to Fox.

And then MTV, nobody wanted it. And then suddenly, five months later, Lazy Sunday happened. Giant sensations. And Andy was hosting the MTV Movie Awards. Andy Samberg, yeah. Yeah. And Phil kept texting all of the MTV execs who

passed on the show, going like, whoops. Here is a 50-foot tall billboard of Andy on a Hollywood in Highland. The one that got away. It was so, yeah. I was just thinking, like, these guys are, once again, ahead of the curve. You guys worked with Forte so many times over the years

on lots of different projects. It's somebody who we all know. And it took a while for America to go like, but you guys were like, well, Forte's the funniest fucking guy ever. Yeah. And then you're proved right. Again, yes, we all know it.

Do you guys, in order for your sensibilities to line up, did you find out, as you guys were getting to know each other in college, that you had similar upbringings? We really did, actually. We both were really short in high school and grew late. And so we had, we both had, like, a very similar upbringing weirdly.

We can't relate to winners. That's right. We always feel like the little pipsqueak in the corner. OK. I'm sorry to break it to you, but don't look now. You do both seem to, like, I can't imagine you guys ever getting in an argument. What is the one area where you guys go, oh, let's not talk

about it? Here's the biggest fight we ever had. Yes. The biggest fight we ever had is over the shape of Abraham Lincoln's nose. On the show, Clone High. Clone High. This is Will Forte's character.

We got him a side card to voice because we thought he was a funny guy. Forte was a very funny writer at that time, and had we had seen him at the Aspen Comedy Festival, where he did a sketch where they just said the phrase, ain't no party like an Otis Day party because an Otis Day party don't quit for 10 minutes with different questions, which was brilliant.

And the most Forte type of film. The most Forte idea of all time. So important. And he was still, I think he was doing groundlings and did the gold man sketch. But the gold man is the greatest sketch. Well, so what's the gold man's sketch? The gold man's sketch.

Can you guys describe it? It's really not family friendly. It's not a super family friendly thing. So he's on stage. He's in full gold makeup. Like he's one of those robot men, the street performers. And they have to do this sketch. This has to be the last sketch of the night for two reasons.

One is that the gold paint takes hours to get off. And the other is, well, you'll see, is that someone puts a dollar on his thing and he starts singing this song called Heart of Gold, where he's explaining about his life. And then it ends up devolving into this thing about how he sucks cock for his face paint. And then it just becomes, he just keeps going,

I'll suck cock for my face paint. That's a lot of the work at times. And what happens is the room starts to clear. Because it goes for also like 10 minutes. It goes forever. And people just decide they're going to leave. Worst case scenario is they're going to miss maybe the last sketch or the last two sketches.

So that's why they had to put it at the end. It's one of the crazy, funniest fucking things you've ever seen because it comes out of nowhere. Because at first he's, if I remember correctly, in the schedule at different times, but he'll get kind of, the guy puts a dollar in. I saw him do it with Sudeika's once when they did that never aired live SNL at UCB

during the writer strike and whatever. And he's like puts a thing in, he's trying to get him in the mood. And then he finally starts, and then he just does it too. And he's not even doing the characters. He's doing it to the audience. I suck cock for my face paint. And he just breaks him that shit.

I love that the character is so like, just hearing that for the first time, I'm thinking how important that face paint is to that character that would do anything to obtain it. Of course it's incredible. And it's so forte. Now look, I know that you guys don't fight, but we've never fought,

but we have to bring it up because I don't know if these guys know. Let's talk about the time that you guys fired me. Oh boy. Is that true? It is true. We did have to- Talk slow.

Yeah. Let's hear it. Jason really wants to save right now. We had cast Will for the lead in Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs. It's true. Well, well. And the studio did not think he was the right voice.

They thought he was too old. Too sounding. Sounded to that. Thank you, Bill. For the character. Thank you. He sounds, well, now I get this, right? Like, so his voice is so undisciplined.

This is why the guy sells trucks that are professional grade. Like, fucking Hater couldn't sell a truck, you know? But Hater could, you know, sell something a little bit more sensible, a little bit more economic. Like- He could sell a funny truck.

So we tried to prove everyone wrong and be like, you don't understand. He's really funny. He's great. He's vulnerable. He's wonderful. He's fantastic. And we tried and they said, no.

I will say that this is 100% on us because we had like a first act screening that went great. And then we put the whole movie together. With our Nets voice. And that's- With Will's voice. Me and Amy. You and Amy.

And we put the whole movie together and it sucked. And the reason the whole movie sucked- That's an animatic. Was because like we were good at making you pay attention for 20 minutes at a time. But when you have a whole movie, if the audience can't really root for the main character and get on board, I don't care how funny it is,

they go to sleep. And what was going on is like every five minute sequence was like a really funny sequence unto itself. And then strung together, you're like, what is this about? Why do I like these people? And what am I rooting for? And what's emotional about it?

We're like, doesn't matter, it's real funny. And the audience just wouldn't go there. So, and the studio basically blew the movie to bits. And we're like, start over. I remember where I was, I was on, I remember I was on motor right by Rancho, right by the swimming pool there, just south of the Fox lot when I got the call.

Just looking for lost balls. You know? Just picking up some shag balls. Picking up shag balls from Hillcrest Country Club. And I remember, and I remember why I was on the bag. I was just doing a loop that day. I picked up, and I remember getting the call and Amy was back in New York and I pulled over and I go,

well, looks like we both got fired from bloody. What's the chance of being both? Oh, Amy got fired too? Oh, it was a team fire. They fired both of us. Yeah, it was a team fire. It was a whole movie blow up. It was a set time.

And so then years later, Oh, go finish your story well. So we didn't talk for a long time. That was like the last time you get, these guys were really sweet. And they're like, we're so sorry and that this happening this way. And I was like, okay, cool.

And like, it's hard not to, no matter what the circumstances, when you get fired, it's hard not to be like, I get it and I get this. And they kept putting, again, very kindly, like it's on us and the movie. And I was like, okay, okay. And it's hard not to like go like, yeah, yeah,

they say that, but it's really me. I'm terrible and I'm the worst. But years later when we were making the Lego movie, we were like, you know who would be perfect for Batman is Will. But then we were like, he may not want to talk to us again. And so then we went to the studio and said, we want to hire Will, but we have a thing.

No matter what, he has to stay this part. No way. We cannot, we cannot fire him no matter what happens. If you fire us, that's fine. You got to keep him on. And every- We had to run it all the way up to Jack Warner. That's right.

Yeah, they had to talk about Jack Warner. They got him to sort of nod. We can have Bernie style. They made him nod. Now, when you guys are- Let me just finish that story to say this. So these guys call me up. I remember the time Sharon, my agent at the time,

she called me. She's like, Phil and Chris want to call you. Don't hang up. And she's like, they have something they want to say to you. And she didn't tip it. And these guys were like, listen. So we're going to do the Lego movie. Do you want to play Batman?

And I was like, I don't even get that sentence. I don't know what the Lego movie means. Like, what are you talking about? And then they walked me through it. And I remember, this is my recollection of it. So we go, we make the movie. Oh my God. And didn't Michael Sarah play Robin too?

No, that was in Lego Batman, which we made three. We ended up making three movies. And these guys, I remember we go in the first couple of times we're at recording at Warner Brothers. And I've, you know, you do a lot of things where you work on that are really fun, especially in person, they're really fun. Making animated movies can be quite an isolating experience

and not that much fun. But these guys were in the booth. Some of the hardest laughs I've ever had in show business were in, in my life, forget show business, we're in the booth with these two guys. We laughed so hard. At one point we were doing this scene about Batman. You guys remember, know what I'm going to talk about?

Yeah. About Batman. Tell me what the line was that he said. Was it the thing about he has a, he has like a crippling need to party with other people? With complete strangers. Wait, so it's also, you guys are laughing about stuff

that you couldn't possibly use in the movie. Is that right? I think we used that part of it. He was trying to explain why he was like, why he abandoned everyone to go party with strangers. And he had a crippling addiction to partying with complete strangers. He was positioning himself as the victim, which was amazing.

Was it, it wasn't, it wasn't rated R was it? No. No, no, no, no. But it was adjacent. Was it not? Was it PG-13? No, it was very, it was very PG. Yeah.

Oh really? But anyway, so just to tie this up. So I remember, I remember we did that. I had so many amazing times laughing with these guys. And they're just the funniest and all the stuff that they pitched and would say to me in the moment, because there'd be the script and then one of them would be like, say this, say this,

say this, and we just had so many great, amazing moments. And their brilliance was incredible. And then we go and the movie comes out. And remember that night and these guys go, we go to this, that bar in Santa Monica, we all had dinner. Do you remember? Another,

Or Vitos. Another, another old school, an empty Italian restaurant. Vitos. Vitos. And the returns start coming in on the movie and it's just doing better and better,

like every 15 minutes, they're like, no, wait, it's gonna make this. And then I was like, this is so crazy. And then the guy, and then they say to me, they go, hey, how would you feel if we made Lego, a Lego Batman movie next? And this is like on the night of this total victory. Opening night.

Yeah, opening night. I'm like, yeah, I guess. And they're like, yeah, the studio wants to do it. I was like, are you kidding? And so like, and then I said, and I don't know if you guys remember, I go, I'm really glad that Clarity of the Chance of Meatballs did not work out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything happens for a reason, for sure. It was the best. Now, when you guys write an animated film, you obviously have to wait to have all the animation done. That happens after the voices are recorded. Is it a different process for you guys doing that versus, because you have to rely on,

you guys aren't still doing the animating, right? The animation. Right, no, no, we're not. We have much more talent at ours. So the whole half of the movie, you have to rely on a whole different set of creative contributions, different than what you can sort of control and guide

on a live set, right? How different is it for you? Yeah, in a funny way, it's the same skill set, which is you're trying to create an environment where everyone you're working with can thrive and bring something of themselves to it. So, you know, it's either in the booth with really talented guys like you,

or you're in a sweat box, you know, watching footage with a bunch of animators in a room. And like, each person's worked on a shot for weeks. Yeah. And so you're just talking about like one moment of like Flint Blockwood sipping coffee and trying to figure out what would be the funniest, most interesting way for him to do that.

But how do you articulate to an animator how to draw something that matches your sense of humor? Like, you guys are so great with some of your dry humor too. Like, how do you talk to an animator about making the eyes sort of be half-lidded and the characters kind of over it? And like, that seems like a hard thing to be able to manage every frame.

Yeah, because it seems like you'd have to hire animators who are funny people as well, right? Exactly, you do. And I think that's part of being a good animator is being able to do that. You're doing half the performance, you know. You're listening to the voice and imagining what it might be.

And as a director or producer, you're doing, it's the same thing as working with an actor. It's just in a much slower process. But do you audition those animators? Like, do you look at their stuff and go, oh, that person knows how to draw? You cast the animator to the shot, where you're like, I think this person

can do a good job on this bit because this thing is really easy and really straightforward or this one is one that like, needs a little subtlety or this one, there's this one person and she's amazing at this type of comedy. Oh, so you hire a team and then you kind of delegate, you do the love scene, you do the action scene, you do the dry humor scene.

It's shot to shot. So you get like 50, 60 animators and you do the minimum, I mean, these days, you're getting hundreds. Wow. We'll be right back. All right, back to the show. How many times, how many, can you think back now

of moments where you've just standing there in front of an animator and you're acting out what you want? Sometimes that definitely happens. On cloudy, where, you know, a lot of stuff now happens in Vancouver, so you're usually working remote. But on cloudy, we were all in a room with, you know, 60 people at a time. And so, yeah, you would stand up and go like,

what if he, what if Flint, you know, types like a Muppet, like this and the most people are scratching their heads going, who are these clowns? But every once in a while, like, there'll be one person go like, yeah, I got that, I totally get what you're laying. You also wanna be open to everyone else's ideas. And once, you know, once the team feels like they can pitch something and it'll get into the movie,

as long as you give them like the direction of the tone and you show them what success looks like, everyone wants to get on board and jump in. And it's just like, you know, having a really talented cast of improvisers that can like, okay, I know what we're going for, I know the tone, I know the vibe. I know if I say this, it's gonna be on the cutting room floor, if I say this, it has a chance of making it

into the show. Are you guys a fan of anything, of current animation now? Do you watch those shows? Are you like, I'm in it, I can't watch it. I'm too, it's my life. I come and go, sometimes I can't. I have to only watch like things that we can't possibly make, like a drama, or like a docuseries

or something, but the cool thing about animation these days is there's so much great work happening and it all looks different. And we're in a golden age where people are trying wild stuff. And on the feature side, which is generally a little more conservative, it's starting to get really wild, which is, you know, we feel good about. I find that hard to believe that there's something

that you guys can't do, and I know you're being modest, but I mean, you guys shift pretty seamlessly between live action and animation. And certainly, I know it in comedy, and you guys, it's what you do, but you've done it with such great ease. I kind of wonder what, because you guys do like, you do the Jump Street movies, and then you do Lego, and then you do Spider-Verse, and then you do the after party.

What are those moments where you guys look at each other and go, all right, it's time to do an animated movie? Or do you have those, or is it just as stuff becomes? How do you decide what to do since you can do so much? There's, I mean, clearly we just never say no. We need to say no a little bit more. And it's all happening at once, and I can't say there's any calculation, or thinking about like

a filmography or a strategy like that. We're literally just going like, oh, we had that idea two years ago, how are we gonna get that up on its feet? Right, you guys had very, even though you met in college, you had different, you're from different parts of the country, obviously. Phil, you grew up in Miami, is that right? True fact.

True fact. Do you still have a connection? Go Marlins, go Heat? Go Dolphins. Oh. Because I grew up, I'm an old fart who grew up before there were Marlins or Heat. You love Dan Greci.

I mean, a huge Bob Greci fan. Bob Greci. And then Brian Greci was my locker mate in the seventh grade. Wow. And his son, Brian, is now a broadcaster, but also a quarterback in the league. And was in the seventh grade, I weighed 60 pounds and Brian weighed 200 and was six feet tall.

Oh my God, the duo Halloween costume options there are exciting. They're really good. Yeah, he wanted me to be a parrot and I was a pirate. Yeah. So you were big Mark late and Mark Dupre fans is what I'm gleaning. The Mark's brothers, my heart was broken

in the one Super Bowl we were in and then losing to the damn Patriots in 85 was horrible. It scarred me for life. It was terrible. Sports. Sports, Chris, do you have a similar affiliation with sports? I do, I'm a sports fan from the great Pacific Northwest.

So I'm a Mariners, Seahawks, Seattle Super Sonics fan. Haven't been to any Sonic's games recently, but I'm excited to get back to those. And you're excited for the Kraken, obviously, for the big NHL team. Huge. I just couldn't have grown up further away from one another. I know, like the absolute corner corner.

It's the diagonal. Yeah. It's either San Diego and Maine would be. That's right. But both port cities. That's right, see. With a significant illicit drug trade. Sure, sure.

Yeah, I'm just trying to think, well, first of all, yeah, that's true, but Miami obviously has got Miami Vice, which was pretty great. What's the biggest? We had grunge music when I was there. Grunge music. Yeah, you guys had the killing. Yeah, we invented overpriced coffee while I was there.

You guys had Miami Vice and Chris, you had Northern Exposure, so that's good. There you go, there you go. That's right. Chris, how old are your kids, Chris? They're 13 and nine. Boy, girl. They're exactly one of each.

Yeah. Some pepper, match set. Do they like the movies? They like the movies. That you guys make? Yeah, no, it's a thing. I mean, they haven't seen the Jump Street movies yet, although, you know, they're getting close to the gate, yeah.

And, but they do, they like the movies that we make, and they give notes. They're like, act two is a little slow. Can you guys do another one of those? Can you direct another? Yeah, direct another comedy movie. For some reason, it's just so freaking great. They've got the After Party, which has been-

They've got the After Party on Apple TV Plus. Oh, gotcha. It's a live action murder mystery comedy. Thanks a lot for making Murderville right around the same time, Will, that was really helpful. Sorry. Would you guys ever go back to your traditional kind of beginning and do a multi-cam traditional sitcom?

Like a classic sitcom? Yeah, would you ever do that? Yeah, I mean, if the right one was there- What if the wrong one was there? The wrong one? Could you make it right? Probably, we could do that as well. Sean's got something he's gonna send you.

Three guys, they're in their fifties, right? Yeah, I think like, yes, yes. And people, the first thing you're gonna say is, these guys are in their fifties? They're in no way. That's the name of the show. That's the name of the show. Those guys are in their fifties in Terabang.

We call it, that or we call it Ring Light, the series. And it's just all right. 50 play 35. You've kind of got the concept probably already. I wanna mention, Jason's being also, I know he's geeking out because Mitchell versus the Machines, we talked about it. Man, is that good.

So Jason, I'm gonna let you lose on the boys because it is a great movie. You know, you sit there and you wanna find some time to gobble stuff up with your kid, you know? And you search and you're searching. Well, let's give this thing a try. And oh my God, I did not stop laughing. I was certainly grinning the entire time

because it was all so fresh, so sharp, so left when you think it's gonna go right. I mean, just everything. That's their homework, man. I know, but like I kept looking over at my, I think I watched it first with my 15 year old and then with my 10 year old. What's it called?

It's called The Mitchells versus the Machines. Yes. And that's the movie you guys did. I'm sorry. Yeah, we purchased it on Netflix. Yeah. Oh, that's great. And it's just stunningly good.

And I was laughing more than they were because it's that smart, that great. Like, it's great. You know, the great animated stuff that works for adults and for kids, it's just, that's not easy. I'm sorry. And then you do, and now you said you're working

on another Spider-Verse movie. It's true. And it should be noted that, I mean, you guys are dipping in, you're one of the only sort of creatives who have been allowed to dip into DC and dip into Marvel. I don't want to make too big of a deal about a less, less than catch wind.

Dufflepins. Dufflepins. Lest, but alas, here we are. And that's into the Spider-Verse. Man, that movie, you know, you go when you have preconceived notions, and I shouldn't have, I shouldn't, I went to see it because I love you guys.

And I was like, it's going to be, but at the very last minute thinking like, how different can this be? And then just being absolutely blown away by that film. I just, I couldn't have loved it any more. And I don't know. So now I'm thinking, well, you guys are making another one. How are they going to re-break their own mold?

That has been the real challenge, right? Is that, you know, you don't want to just do the same thing you want. The whole, the brand is innovation. And so then you're like, well, how the hell are we going to make this thing, you know, different from the rest of it? Is that what keeps you guys up?

Is that the thing that you talk about the most? Like across the desk to each other? Yeah, I think we like, that project in particular, you've got, you're sort of freaking out going, how do we recreate the feeling of being in the theater, watching that movie, which is to be surprised. And, but all of these moves that we already did are off the table.

So you're sitting there going, okay, emotionally, what can we do that will, that will, you know, that will feel like a left turn, but still feel like it's, you know, it belongs there. What about writing something for live, live stage, like a musical play, something like that? We came to, for two seconds, there was a idea of a Lego Broadway show.

I was like, no, no. It's getting kicked around. And we were thankful that that did not happen. We were like, this seems so hard, which of course makes us want to do it. Sean, don't say no. The guy could have a prosthetic stomach and plastic hair. Yes, exactly, a fat suit and a plastic wig.

Don't think about him. He's like a fat suit, plastic wig. But that notion of like having to better yourselves each time is that I imagine for any artist that creates things from the ground up that there is some sort of an onerous thing that would sit with you. Like, how can I make the next thing better?

And do you find that your own taste progresses naturally into a new place of talent? Or do you feel like you guys have to push yourselves to continually grow and be even funnier and be even more sort of subversive? Or does it just happen naturally that your taste just develops? I mean, it's sort of both in that

we don't like to repeat ourselves and we don't like to feel bored. And so, and I don't think we do a very good job unless we feel like we're doing something that we haven't done before that feels like maybe not that many other people have done it before. That kind of drives us.

So I think sometimes we'll be sitting there going like, why do I hate this? Right. And oh, it's cause it just feels like an easier choice. And so we then, I mean, that's one of the- Which also don't want to be new just for the sake of being new and far out and different. And you have to build this also like fundamentally

like universal like relationship things that are not new but every like specific choice has to be different. And I think that the granular sort of embryo of that process is just the conversation between the two of us, which is, you know, yeah, I think this thing is really funny but I'm looking over at Chris and he's just like not having it.

So it makes instead of getting mad and going like, why don't you like it? It makes you retreat and go, okay, how can I make this even better? How do I get it up the hill? And maybe Chris can help me. Like here's what I'm going for. Well, this is why I didn't go for it,

but maybe you could try. And then you wind up building something that neither one of us would have thought of on our own. It's great having somebody to be like, okay, I'm trying to make this thing that I think Phil is going to like. And luckily our sensibilities are juvenile enough that we can make things that kids seem to like also.

But we're never really- That's how Sean and Scotty are with lunch. Yeah. You know what I mean? They're both building towards that they have a similar, there's something that they like and they're like the sandwich and then the tune and the thing and the chips

and they look at each other. Yes. We made it. We made it. We did it. Crack mac and cheese, two boxes. Are you guys proud as you should be that your partnership is healthy

and that it's harmonious and that you guys still enjoy one another? Cause I'm sure that that takes as much work and attention and respect as you have in your personal relationships and partnerships as well, right? I've got two marriages that I got to let juggle all the time. You know, it's like I'm one of the, I've got like a family in Arizona

that that was a secret family. But yeah, so it really is. I mean, the good thing is, you know if you're building it off of respect and admiration and if you feel like, oh, this is a person that's bringing a lot to the table that I can't do and is, you know if you admire the person, it's a lot easier

than if you're like, oh, this fucking dead weight. Can you guys identify what one person is better at than the other? Do you guys have clearly two different lanes? It doesn't seem like there's tons of overflows. Write it on a piece of paper and show at the same time. Like is one person better at story and the other person is better at dialogue?

It's not that simple. It would be easier probably if that were the case, but we, you know, we're both, we both have a lot of strong opinions about everything. Yeah, I think we would never find out if one of us was weaker at something because I don't think we'd ever be able to admit it. But I do think there's, sometimes I get a little more

frustrated or hotheaded in like a meeting and nobody cares, but if Chris gets upset, then everyone pays attention. Because he rarely does? He rarely does. I'm more soft spoken. So Chris is upset and we've been in a few meetings where like somebody said something that was so appalling

that Chris like could no longer function. And I immediately flipped into like Mr. Peacemaker, Mr. Constructive, like let's get this together. And I just realized like, oh, I have that muscle. It's just that it's atrophied because Chris is there to pick me up every time I get caught. It's a perfect match.

That's so real. This is incredible. And I like the way that you're like, you don't want to admit it to be like, this is like the equivalent of like keeping it hot. Keep it in there. God, you guys are still dating. And then you guys get to make all these little babies together.

Don't say it like that. And don't fucking shimmy your shoulder. They're making a cartoon baby this time. And the next time they're making a film baby. Phil and Chris, God, we could talk to you guys forever. You guys are the best. Thank you for taking time from your new office. Go make more good stuff.

You guys are so nice. I can't believe you gave us this many compliments. I just expected stern skepticism. No, no, no, no. We're fans. You guys are fans. You guys are really, really nice of you to do this. Thank you guys.

You guys are the sweetest. Thanks for having us. Chris, say hi to Sissy Poo. I will, I will. I'll tell her you said hello. Thanks. Boys, thank you so much. All the best on after party in the second season.

Looking forward to everything and just thanks. Good luck with everything. Thank you guys. Thank you fellas. All right. Have a great rest of the day. Bye guys. Bye, bye, bye, bye.

Bye. Real good. Real good. So when they, when they double dip, when they do DC and then other times they do Marvel or whatever the other one is, do they just maybe switch their, they go Miller Lord instead of Lord Miller

and that way people lose track of them. I think when they did Lego movie there were actually a lot of properties involved in that. It just so happens that Warner Brothers has affiliated with the DC brand. Yeah, cause I think they could just switch their names, just go Miller Lord and like they think it's a different couple, you know?

Well, they had everybody in that. I remember one thing was in Lego Batman, there was a line where I say, what's the password? You know, when he's going into the Batcave and I say, Iron Man sucks. And they're like, oh, you can't say that. Sure, sure it's gonna be okay. Yeah, I don't think anybody's gonna mind if I say that.

And we had to go and ask and remember. Yeah. They are, honestly, they are, you know, Jason, you brought up when you go to the movies, especially when you wanna see an animated film and you need a movie. Yeah, those guys are it. Well, that a movie that kind of,

that appeals to everybody and not in that way of like, hey, you know, the way that executives think like, it's gotta be four quadrant cause they wanna just hit everybody. It's actually really good for everybody. Like really, really good for everybody. Yeah. That's what they do.

And it's not like they're doing it in a contrived sort of deliberate strategic way. I think they just, they're just that smart, that funny where there's a little bit for everyone in what makes them laugh. Yeah, I love their stuff. They're just incredible. I truly meant it, working on those Lego movies

with those dudes. I can't believe they can do everything. They can do big animated films. They can do, they can do live action, ensemble comedy stuff like 21 Jump Street. You know? And then they do this series. And now they got the after party,

which is a hilarious series. By the way, it's so smart of them to always zigzag because like they said, our brand is an invention or what did they say? Innovation. Their brand is, what did he just say? Is he trying to back into a buy? No, he's not.

This is the first time that he's actually for legit, I can tell the difference. No, he said our brand is innovative or something like that. Where they, you can't label them as one thing, which is so smart. Yeah, yeah, great. Thanks, Sean.

You know, I know, I just remember what I'm getting Sean for Christmas. Is it a half a brain? It's at the source. Oh, is it a half a brain? I just, I wonder if, it's a scary, I play this game. He's got room.

I wonder if there's anything wrong in their life. Like everything seems so great. I wonder like, do you think they have some real devious problem like on the weekends that they hope nobody ever finds out about? Yeah, like the double park. Right, those sons of bitches. Those are the ones.

They're the ones that just kind of straddle the line, you know, because they don't want anyone dinging their door. No, they don't. I think they're probably just really good guys. And you know what? Guys, if you can see the guy, if you can see the glint in his eye,

if we're such a lazy. He's so happy with this one. You know what? You have to say, you know what it rhymes with. This is fucking, even for you, this is so lazy. And I'm gonna allow it because I want you to shame yourself. Go ahead.

Well, it's guy rhymes with, bye! No, that's lazy. It's lazy. You know, it's not, no, you're gonna have to stick around and come up with a bigger one. Yeah, you know what? Let's hang them out. No, we didn't join in.

We can't let you have it. Sure. Let's keep going. Let's see. Sean, you know why? Because if I let you go, and if I let that one go today, and then some listeners,

you know what that could do? That could come back and, bye! Bye! You and me in the ass! Love you both. Love you. Smart. Less.

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