SmartLess - "RE-RELEASE: Paul Thomas Anderson"

Episode Date: October 9, 2025

Italian candy expert, amateur filmmaker (and recipient of 11 Academy Awards) Paul Thomas Anderson joins us this week to dig into the businesstry and take a bite outta’ life. Motto panukeiku! Hai?This episode was originally released on 3/7/2022. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ to listen to new episodes of SmartLess ad-free and a whole week early. Start a free trial now on Apple Podcasts or by visiting siriusxm.com/podcastsplus. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Okay, here we go. This is going to be a smartless episode. Let's tune up the ears, get the wax out. What are you doing? The papers are getting set. The prep is done. Okay, ready? Here we go.

Are you guys? Guys, guys, guys, it's an all-new smartless. Oh, God. Smartless. Smart. Smart. Smart. Okay, hey guys, look, wait, check this out.

Oh, sure, yeah, yeah, start right away. Yeah, have you been preparing, Sean? You see that, look at the sign. Construction? No, that sign, right where my finger is. Chicago Theater. Oh, wow, wow, wow, wow. Did you know that a week ago

that you were going to be staying in that apartment? I knew, I knew the name of it, but I didn't know where it was. Yeah, Sean, for the listener, Sean started his stay there. What is it going to be like a multi-month stay in Chicago, right? The first night he was there was Valentine's, and appropriately he and Scotty saw a couple consummating Valentine's right across the street. And like in kind of like, it wasn't even like, it was all the lights were on. it was somewhat impromptu. We won't get into the graphic details of it,

but it was clearly not a planned consummation. No, all parties were upright, is the point. It was half a wobbly age. Isn't that wild? And Scottie's like, I go, what are you looking at? And he's like, come over to this window. How long was he looking out the window before you noticed he was staring? Quite a while.

It was a minute. And he kept saying, and he kept saying, come look at these people in love right he kept saying look at these people i mean he they were going this is love in case you didn't know it's valentine's day okay now do you think they wanted to be seen that's why the shades were up yeah no i think people are just used to living well will you can speak to this you've lived in new york city uh do you just get used to the fact that people might be watching you or do you well that i think you go back and forth i think that you are you have moments where you're like oh my god and then you also have moments you're like

you just live your life and you don't think about it you can't you can't think about it all the time I mean you could pull the shades down sure um I will I would suggest that those people who are engaged in that in that moment uh didn't care uh and in fact that that probably was there to heighten their experience

now Shawnee you're you're back out on the road um how's uh we'll get to our guests here apologies but uh shani how's the first few days of rehearsal going on having regrets how's oscar levant so sean's doing a it's not a musical right it's got some music in it it's a play no no it's a play it's a play it's a play it's so he's there now he's a weekend of rehearsals and uh it's it's pretty arduous to to rehearse a play for the listener and sean are you loving it or or having regrets oh my god i love it so much i mean it's a ton of work but um thank you for asking it's it's uh yeah it's a ton of work but but really rewarding you know what i love the most is the we're in the process of

sitting around talking about the play page by page making sure everything makes sense and the backstory informs what the characters are doing it's kind of is it the first time the play is being done yeah it's a brand new play by doug right who won the pulitzer for i am my own wife and he wrote the movie quills and amazing writer well that's plug doug for sure you know does he have a website oh by the way it's called goodnight oscar it's called goodnight oscar oh god we know and We have told every audience across the country knows Oscar Levant backstage at the Tonight Show. Nobody's going to go to the play now. Everybody feels like they've already seen it.

Well, maybe they'll check out Murderville again. Yeah, exactly. Let's give that another. It's not a bad idea. That's not a bad idea. How's that doing, Will? People seem to really be enjoying it. It's been very nice to see people enjoy it and have fun with it.

Listener, that's a show on Netflix called Murderville that Will Arnett brought to all of us. It's a fair to us. And, you know, well, so we go from that. So from Good Night Oscar to Murderville to the other big question we got a lot on the tour, which is Jason, when are the final six episodes of us are going out? It's seven, but not a big deal. Seven. I don't know.

I wanted to surprise people with the seventh. Sorry. There's a bonus. Yeah. After the credits, there's one more. They're going to announce that soon, but it's going to say. I cannot say, but it will be soon. All right.

Here comes our guest, y'all. Okay, okay, all right. Sean, well, today I get into a little bit of trouble with you guys. I apologize. I know that you hate it when I bring an academic on or a scientist, big brains in general. But this guy seems to really just hold on. He seems to really be liked by those who have taken his class. All right?

He's been teaching filmmaking for almost 30 years now and out of some of the top institutions in town. He's taught his students mostly through doing in that he's managed together the funds necessary to himself. make nine films on subjects as odd as a single digit, nighttime mucus, party drinks, hemophilia, major golf tournament, addiction, haunted textiles, and Italian candy. And if you can believe it, these films have yielded an 11 Academy Award nominations. Most importantly, though, he's got four kids, a house in the valley, and married to the coolest woman, we three know. Gang, it's Paul Thomas Anderson. No.

No. Yes. Oh, my God. Hello. Oh, my gosh. Hi, guys. It's so good to see you. Did you guys have a guest with that list of subject matters?

You really had me reeling on that. Did I bury it good? That's a great intro. I worked on that for a full nine minutes this morning. Paul, would you have been able to guess yourself with that intro? Come on. Now, let's guess it. So a single digit, which one is that, man?

I did it in order. A single digit, obviously, is heart aid. Nighttime mucus? Nighttime mucus Come on Boogie nights, y'all Party drinks Oh my god

Oh my gosh Okay, party drinks We've got Punch drunk love Humophilia There will be blood Major golf tournament Obviously the master

Addiction is inherent vice Haunted textiles We know and love Phantom Thread An Italian candy Out in theaters now The Valley Famous Pizza record store

That's incredible All right. Pretty good. I'm so proud of myself, Paul. You can see I'm just beaming. He's so. Guys, we can't do early morning records. I'm still up from last night.

That's like the USA Today crossword version. You know what I mean? Oh, man. Wait, but Oscar Levant is one of my heroes. Really? Oh, really? Oh, you go. You two.

He's amazing, isn't he? Yes. You know, there's a great Oscar Levant show that he did that was here on KTLA Channel. and Fred Astaire was one of the... That's exactly right. It was impossible to find forever and ever and ever. I have the whole thing if you want it.

No, well, but I remember it was this impossible to find thing. And then when this thing, YouTube came around, I remember thinking, I'll see if this thing can really find something I want. And I put it in the Oscar Levant show, and there it was. I said, oh, my God, I like YouTube. It was there. Is it great? Yeah, yeah.

Dear Mr. YouTube, great job. what's your while I'm thinking of it because my brain doesn't hold stuff well the first shot in Magnolia was that when you go through the hallways and you go onto the sound stage

isn't that the Tonight Show stage at yes right speaking of the Tonight Show Oscar Levant on it's right yeah what does they call it officially it's NBC it's where the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson you know they did that

but they also did the local news there they had you know i remember a big deal was that we were shooting and we had to uh we had it was the days of paul moyer do you remember paul moyer and um we just needed to move his space over you know a couple spots and it was like you know three days of negotiations to move paul moyer's spot he was not having it and it was on a sunday he wasn't even shooting oh my god he wasn't even there he just didn't want his stuff messed with he just didn't want his spot messed with Somehow I remember, I don't know how I'm remembering this, he had a bright, I think it was a bright red 9-11 D.P. Targa, like one of those with the big whale tales.

I like that. Yeah. Did he cut you off once on follow? No, I just remember being taken that a local newsman would have some big ass flashy, cool car, and he pulled it off. That guy, very, very cool. Yeah, he was a hand-to-hand fight with him and Ron Burgundy would be great. It's a very similar kind of, you know.

Speaking of cool network newsmen, kind of, a little bit of a reach, your dad was the voice of ABC for all of my years growing up in Los Angeles. Oh, really? Yeah. Like, if I played that voice for you, you'd knock you out. You'd be like, oh, my God, that's Paul's dad. No question there. I just want to mention that as something very, very cool.

Well, actually, so Paul, we've talked about this briefly before once. Because you mentioned, your dad was the voice of ABCs, you said, and he was like the original real promo guy on networks. Yeah, yeah. And my recollection is, and so I'm going to say this, and then you can tell me what you know about this, and if I'm wrong. He would record the promos for all the network.

And the promo guys are, when you watch a show, when you're watching a network and you hear, coming up tonight at 8 p.m. It's an all-new, blah, blah, blah. Followed by by. Oh, that was your dad? That was your dad? And your dad would sit in the room with the engineer

right next to the board, and he had a 4-16, a shotgun mic, and he was the first guy to do that in that way. Is that right? Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I don't know for sure if that's exactly that technical thing, but that the image of that shotgun mic, you know, he would never go into the booth.

He wanted to do it in the control room. Was he, because he was actually in real time telling the guy how to modulate his voice and do all the EQ and stuff? I think that had something to do with it, too, And I think he was smart enough or done it enough to know, like, I'm not going in the booth. I'm going to be with you guys.

You know, it's going to be exactly the same. I'm not, you know. He also liked to smoke while he was doing it, too. And I think he was out of weird. Willie likes that. Willie does a little of that. Not in the booth, not anymore. But I will say that, like, and then I'll get out of the weeds on this.

So traditionally, all the voiceover guys, especially in New York, where a lot of it used to be done back in the day, everybody used the mic that's a very common that I do have over here and what we refer to as an 87 a U-87 and it's a great microphone

oh thanks well your dad changed that by using that shotgun mic and he forever changed and it became the West Coast microphone that all so whenever I would come out here and go to a recording studio they'd always have a shotgun mic

and it was because of your dad that that became the standard out of here is that like the Johnny Carson one that was on his desk is that what a shotgun mic is what is that No, that... No. Okay, bye everybody. Oh, see you later, Sean.

So, Paul, you did not know that, huh? No, that sounds fantastic to me, and it doesn't seem too far from accurate. Even, you know, he did obsess over that kind of stuff, and I probably passed a little bit of it on to me. Were you close to him? Yeah, very. Oh, that's nice.

I got to go, you know, I had that opportunity to go to Prospect and Talmadge, which was where he would go to work at ABC. Downtown. And, you know, generally, that was sort of my first taste of being around anything that was show business related, and that was magical to me. How old were you at that point?

Anywhere between the ages of probably five and, you know, nine, 75 to 70. Did it strike you as being like a peculiar thing for your dad to do? I can say from my own experience, And I ask this because I say to my kids sometimes, like, it's when they do stuff or I do stuff or they come in a work-related environment. I'm like, it's weird, right?

That this is what you're, because it's weird to me if my dad had done it. And I sort of acknowledge it. Was it, did it seem strange or just because it was your dad? It seems strange only because it was not, I was proud of him, but no one else could recognize this, the pride, you know?

It's such as behind-the-scenes gig, there's nothing. there's nothing kind of famous about it you know you don't walk down the street and somebody say like wow there he is you know or your dad's a baseball player he's hit my mind it's like well you you know there's no recognition to it

really it was this but that's what he loved about it so much was that he could just kind of have this independent life coyoteing around town and you know doing his work and getting paid for it so you're sitting there you're watching kind of the sausage get made for television and in some

aspect and were you were you at that point starting to gather these images and interest in this process and what it oh these are the people that are behind the curtain that create at least this lane of fake life and and and that started to build an idea for you about what you might want to do or get or can you can you track the moment that you thought uh i i want to do something like this i can't remember because it for as long as my memories are there i've wanted to to make films for sure but you have to remember i mean jason you'll remember that there was like such a dividing line between making films and making television yeah yeah television back then was like

you know anybody can do it you know right movies it was like this this gold ring like not everybody gets to make movies you know right so you started to experiment with little home movie and it's not it's not an uncommon story right and no it's the same exact story as everybody else But I had the camaraderie and it was so crazy. Now, I mean, I look around my life right now and I see my relationship to all the people in dark rooms that I work with engineers and things like this. It's the entire process of making a movie.

And you're like, this is exactly what my dad did. You go to a dark room each day and, you know, trying to make something happen. And the friendships that he had with those guys, I look back and I think, I was really inspired by I always just thought that's what a friendship was

you know these kind of he was very close with all these technicians and guys that he worked with so those are the people that were around our house yeah my

one of my first experiences were people that were very very close with the crew or at least a full understanding of the importance of the crew as opposed to sort of this this sort of terrible

traditional kind of look at like oh you know the that's you know some people look at crew as sort of soldiers and that, you know, the folks that are in front of the camera, the ones that are super important when it could, when the, when the opposite is actually the truth. And so was that, did that start then understanding that, oh my God, this is, this is really difficult and there's actually nobody on the set there that doesn't need to be there.

Well, the only people that don't need to be there are like studio executives and producers. And, you know, what I learned probably from my dad, it was like, whoever's, whoever's, you know, kick all the people out of the room that are not completely, completely essential to the product, you know. You learn pretty quickly who isn't, you know, they scatter. Yeah. Yeah.

So grabbing those early video cameras, movie cameras, stuff like that, that's sort of a pretty common story where you kind of point a camera at stuff and you kind of take little kid films and little army men and that's not uncommon. But what about the writing part? Do you remember your first experience? looking at a blank piece of paper and trying to figure out how to start from zero.

Do you remember that being humbling or surprisingly easy? That's a really good question because I think you're right that the story of, you know, the filmmaker with the 8mm camera and then onto the video cameras, like there's a million of them and that's generally how everybody starts. But the writing part always excited me because I liked it. I think I got lucky that I liked it. I liked putting paper into a typewriter and typing out ideas.

And I liked seeing it on the page. I liked looking at that idea. I don't know. From an early age, I've always liked writing and formulating things on paper. And when you learn on a typewriter, you learn how to make it right the first time because the last thing that you want to do

is go through that and I had the one script You still use a typewriter? No, I don't I mean from time to time I will just for fun to mix it up But no I don't use a typewriter anymore

But I remember the one script that I had I think I have to credit my mother for this Is I had the script for Holy Grail Oh wow Monty Python Monty Python It was published as a little book

And I loved that movie so much So this is like probably 8, 78 or 79. By the way, they're both like Monty Python. No, the actual Holy Grail, you... Jesus. We're helping Tracy, okay? So I had the... What was the script for that?

And then I just copied that. I just copied how the formatting was of that. It was a great way to learn. So I think writing is either something that you like doing or you don't like doing. I mean, you know, it's... Yeah. I got a dumb dummy question.

when you drive when you're just driving around like the driving around during the day with your kids or whatever do you constantly think in images or see images and think of filmmaking like do you is it hard to turn it off yeah it's no um it's easy to turn off oh okay never mind it's not no i don't like walk around like rain man or something like that like you know because i i always think of like whenever i'm driving around i always see like images there's like god that be such and i see like a frame around it or something i'm not a filmmaker especially when you're listening to music do you find that happening sean all the time you basically start cutting videos right yeah don't you do that change your eyes go right you know and i dork out like that how many how many wham inspired movies have you made sean in your head

oh there's got to be like 12 i mean you know they wake me up before you go go was my holy grail You know, they're like, I was like, I can't believe there's a... Just lends itself to a real cinematic. Paul, what is it? This could be the best interview. I like, I just... You don't get to talk, Paul. I know, and this is why I like it.

I just want to hear you guys. I have to tell you, my favorite, I heard, listen to, I don't, listen to... You haven't listened to this. I have. Of course I have. But the one joke that stuck with me forever and ever and ever was Will sing something about your father, Jason. and by father he met the security guard at the 20th century

Fox squad that sounds about right don't make Jason cry don't make Jason cry it stuck with me where I think about that's what I think about Sean when I'm driving down the modes

every once in a while I'll think about something pops into your head you think God that was really really really really funny and I'll you know surprising when you're in the car and you're driving around you're not thinking about

Sean's dad peeling away from the house. Because he was real handy in a car. Yeah. Still hasn't come back. Exactly. And we will be right back. And now, back to the show.

Paul, what, and forgive us for just being such fools. I'm sure we ruined many of your days having to listen to it. Wait, I want to know about, I want to know about. Okay, definitely. Yeah, just cut them off, Sean, if you get an idea, start talking. Go ahead, Will. Wait, I just want to get this out of the way. Your real Oscar Levant over there.

I think I've seen, I'm pretty sure I've seen every single one of your films and always been amazed by each one. But I just want to get this out of the way before I forget. Boogie Nights, is it true that Leo was up for the part but Mark got it? Or Leo turned it down because he did Titanic or is there any truth to any of that? Sean loves the dirt, Paul. That is very true, is that I asked Leo to be in Boogie Nights and he spent many, many months agonizing and debating about it.

and ultimately what I didn't realize or kind of came to realize about halfway into that this sort of long decision-making process is that he had a choice to make which was to either do Titanic or to do Boogie Nights

and he chose to do Titanic which of course in the long run catapulted into this massive worldwide fame but on the other hand I think possibly but I think it was we laugh about it now but he you know regrets

missing the experience and doing it. But, yeah, that's true. Yeah, that's right. I just always wondered that. It'd be, well, now you know. So. Well, see, and I would have never known. Will, was your question as good as that?

Not as good as that. Actually, that was very interesting and well done, Sean. Congrats. I like the idea. Back to Google. Back to Google, Sean. I thought you were going to say, I thought you were going to say,

and to this day, I still think Leo made a huge error in judgment. You never let it go. But what was, no, the question actually was just simply, what was that first thing that you wrote and you said, I should film this? Yeah. And that you, first thing that you actually put to film, that you, from your own words.

Well, I did, like, short treatments and shot lists and things like that. But really, funny enough that when I was 16, just about to turn 17, I wrote a short film that was called the Dirk Diggler story, that was what Boogie Nights became. and it was like a 23 or 24-page script. But I did it in the format that was so popular at the time, and all I had was this sort of bad video camera, so I realized it wasn't going to look good,

it wasn't going to look like a movie. So I wrote this thing that was about 23 pages long, and it was interviews with people looking back at the life of this guy, Dirk Diggler. Oh, a current affair was a very popular show at that time. I don't know if you remember that. But they would always have these, insanely over-dramatic

and it was so preposterous that it was so trying to find a way into the story that I thought was interesting which is the pornography that had surrounded me my whole life living where I lived like it was so obvious what was around me and then writing it in this format was like a doable thing like

okay I can get somebody and do an interview with them you know I mean it's a format that's still at work you know but at the time it was really like the most convenient and plausible way into a story with the equipment that you had at hand. Wow.

Did you, have you transferred that from, from, was it VHS? You know it was 8mm, 8mm video, so a high 8, I think they would call. Have you transferred it to something that'll last and are we ever going to see it? Hopefully not, hopefully it's somewhere, no, it's, it's transferred within an inch of its life, it's available. I think it, maybe it's on YouTube, I'd have to look again. Oh, really? Yeah, I'm not sure. Wow.

It's not terrible. There's still some jokes that are. the same and things and some pieces that you know remained in boogie nights you know what was great about that was that what i didn't even realize at the time in terms of the writing in terms of really learning how to write was that i created this kind of these fictional characters in this fake documentary right and then i realized what i had to do was adapt that adapt this these fake lives into a movie and I spent the next well probably about 10 years

doing that so I like wrote a 90 page version of this documentary and then I realized well I don't want to do that that's not the right format for this I want to write this as a fictional film so I did that you know for 10 years I guess it was the way that I learned how to write really was practicing telling this story

in multiple different ways it's funny that that seems to be a recurring theme with a lot of filmmakers and writers. I know, you know, Kenny Lonergan used to do at Back in Naked Angels in this theater company in New York in the 90s, he did various scene nights on Monday nights where he would do the scene about a brother and a sister

and then just this guy who was kind of lost in his 20s in New York, et cetera, et cetera. And it took on a bunch of different incarnations, a bunch of different scenes, which eventually then became, this is our youth, the play. Right. That my then girlfriend, Missy Yeager, was in,

with Mark Ruffloh and Josh Hamilton, that then became kind of really, I think the inspiration for, you can count on me, you know, and but it was like this similar story, similar theme that he told in various ways over at least 15 years

before he kind of landed on that. Yeah. I'm sure you can probably relate to that. For sure, you know, maybe there's leftovers and you're just, I don't know, how deep is your well i guess you just keep you well to that point i mean do you find that it was basically a peeling the onion further and further back on a specific theme that you thought this sort of story was a fun example of um and if so what is that theme yeah but that's a can you write

a theme i can never write a theme well i mean but i mean you tell me you know you're doing um a theme of being let's say the irresponsible chase of fame let's say you could apply to that I never have anything good like that I always have like just like no like I never ever have I have more like facts like well what would

what really happens here and some steal from real life like every story was essentially the same you know it was like if the exaggerated version was the guy who steps off the bus and you know kind of comes to Hollywood with big dreams right and takes his pants off and then the next thing you know he's a big

star and it was any classic rise and fall story so I'm always just sort of following any steps of reality I mean I don't know I never I get so scared of writing to a theme or having anything like that beforehand I can remember at a certain point maybe needing help like like what is the story and luckily enough coming across singing in the rain and being like oh right it's just the same thing as like silent talkies you know it's this transitional time in whatever industry they're going from shooting on film to shooting on video like use things like this to tell your story and whatever themes will will just emerge later well yes so you write a story and you basically just write a script because it's uh to oversimplify it you you this this event runs

to this event and this event and now we have an ending and it's a fun story and now you shoot it and all that worked out well now you're in the editing room and you start to shape this pardon the phrase experience for the audience and it starts to sort of present itself as a film and you start working with either temp music or the actual score and maybe themes start to develop for you as a viewer as you're viewing it trying to keep the the optics of a viewer do you allow that to happen and then does that inform the way you finish the film and oh here's here's a little theme that's existing underneath this crunchy story that's kind of fun.

Do you find that that happens? I find that that's exactly what happens with the exception that it does happen a little bit earlier, you know, that once you, I mean, listen, I'm not blind, you know, as you're writing something, you maybe, you're fighting off the idea that the theme is right in front of your face, but just because you want to try to tell something factually and what ends up emerging emerges and you can't fight it. Hopefully you like it. you're enjoying what's happening but you i think it and you you keep a half an eye on it but really

you keep the other eye on what are the facts what are the facts what are the facts of the story you know um why why is that because i don't know i find films that overindulge in telling me the theme are are annoying you know and boring um so but yes to your point that once you and then you get into shooting and you're seeing dailies and you're seeing stuff emerge that is really exciting or stuff that is unexpected and you either embrace it or you say perhaps this is not going in the right direction

but more often than not you can't stop what's coming nor should you that you have to kind of be surrender you're guiding a ship but you're also surrendering a bit to the path that's happening and you know performances kind of get bigger or smaller whatever ends up happening and then it just keeps on going

and you keep refining that through the editing and all that. One of the, if we can get into staying on the idea of themes, one of the themes, it seems to me, of your films is that they're very specific, visually and stylistically, each one different in its own way, but they do seem so specific in the writing. And so what is your relationship like,

again, going deeper into the weeds on filmmaking, but what is your relationship? like with your production designer and your and your DP leading up to when you actually shoot because it does seem like all of your films, I told you once at risk of further embarrassment to myself and to you, for instance, there will be blood. I feel like it should be just hung in MoMA and left there for people. It's an incredible piece of art in every way from the writing to the direction, to the art direction. production. What is that like for you leading up to actually rolling film in working with those

departments? Well, it's the great joy of collaboration, particularly when you're doing it with somebody that you love and work with. Like, for instance, on that film, I had never worked with Jack Fisk, who's one of the great production designers who started his career with Terrence Malick and David Lynch. They kind of go back to their beginnings together. Anyway, I contacted to Jack Fisk and had written this script and I needed to kind of create I need a lot of help with making oil derricks

and the recreation of an early California town and there was only one person that helped do that so it started a great collaboration Jack Fisk was you know we were kind of trying to learn how to get oil out of the ground and really trying to be really

you know do our research and he said the greatest thing he's like you know I found that if we can just get a children's book about this, it's really better than trying to really understand how to do it with all these kind of books that are this thick. And it was one of these great lessons and like, yeah, get the children's book

first and don't be, you know, because it'll have drawings, it'll be simple. And it was like, wow, Jack Fis gets the children's book first. All right, that's really good advice. But we had an incredible joy of going to scout locations together and find a place to make

this film. And I learned from him one incredible trick that I still try to make true is that the more you can have a location where everything is close together the more freedom you have here's what I mean about that is that if you shoot a scene you know over here and you see it a few days later you think that's the worst scene that we've ever done we should really try to do it again is that you can go do it again you know you kind of create your own You create your own backlog, you create your own universe and try as much as you possibly can to not move too much, but to have a variety of different looks and things happening.

So that, I don't know, I'm lost in whatever your question was. It was kind of like the collaboration. Well, the simplicity sometimes yields some of the most complex and sophisticated results, perhaps. Sure, that's my role. Was there a similar process with Johnny Greenwood who did the, for Tracy was the composer on that film. I believe it was the first time he'd composed music for a film and the first time you guys worked together?

Yeah, yeah. There was a piece of music that he had written for orchestra because he was already well-versed in how to write for string instruments. It wasn't like, don't let him fool you. I mean, I know he's... But obviously, his score was incredible, as was everything else in the film.

It is really incredible, and it's an opportunity... You know, look, I think... No, there was no kind of crazy weird instrumentation or something like that. He does do funny things with instruments where he'll detune certain pieces of the orchestra and keep others in tune. And so he has the ability to make it sound very familiar. You're hearing string instruments, but that sounds just out of body enough that you can't quite place it. So he's brilliant like that, but that sort of stuff.

It's, you know, it's nice, it's trickery, but he writes beautiful music that complements the film and they go hand in hand and it was the beginning of a beautiful collaboration. Do you consciously keep that in mind when you're writing, like spaces or do you listen to stuff when you write? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I had all kinds of...

The stuff that I was listening to was stuff that he likes anyway. Was it Pendericki or Schubert or, you know, even the piece that he had written for the BPC orchestra? So that was already kind of informing where my head was at. And it was nice to go to him and say,

like, you know, the movie lends itself, too, to just, like, wide open spaces and, like, a huge opportunity to fill long gaps of silence with music that can either be gigantically loud or even just simmering underneath. So it was quite a good entrance into the game for him. I love that. What's the music that you put on when you go, like, pick up the kids from school or whatever? Like, what are you, what are your bands? Yeah, what's the music you have to take off the stereo when your kids get in and put on uh well they're already sick of that smile record they've been hearing that enough yeah

yeah they're like they're like enough with that enough enough enough so well come on what's pearl listening to right now pearl is listening to well you know what she's listening to is anything and i don't know in any of the many of the artists but um we just we're kind of obsessed right now with this film the worst person in the world yeah i don't know if you guys have seen it i send the trailer it looks great Oh, it's fucking magical, this film. And it's got this great soundtrack. So we've just kind of been listening to all this variety of songs on that soundtrack, which is everything from like Harry Nelson and Todd Rungering

to a lot of new stuff that I've never heard in my life, you know. I want to ask you something about, you know, streaming versus wide release and where we're at and the business of that. And I was having this conversation with a friend. And we were talking about how, for example, West Side Story, or licorice pizza or whatever it is that's out there that's fantastic right now

how that would have fared with a really long, wide release run would anybody see these things? Are we really truly at the point where we just want to see stuff in our homes but to the filmmaker I imagine you want it to be seen on that big screen because of the genre of filmmaking

right? Because of the thing that lends itself to that so what are your thoughts about that? Well yeah I mean I, I don't know, I kind of, I don't know, I mean, I like everything, you know. I mean, I really do. I sound like Daniel Plainview is like, I like all kinds of religions. They're all fucking, you know, I'm not going to, like, I'm not going to, like, I'm not going to get in your back.

Exactly. Wait, wait, but when you make a movie, isn't the idea in your head, I can't wait to see this on the big screen. Yes. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so with the, with the business of this business, it just seems to be less and less that

if it's not one of these big superhero movies it's gonna well listen that's exactly right i mean to that point is um there's probably you know 30 theaters in this country where it would look great and sound great and the rest are fiff i'm sorry but it's like you know it's and that's the sad truth of it is that i can understand why everybody says like oh piss off i'm staying at home you know what you want me to pay for a babysitter and pay for parking and come in and look at this shit and look at it on a fucking screen that you guys haven't even you know i don't know it's hard to defend at a certain point yeah yeah but i'm sure that if god forbid the the business became a place where it's only event movies in in in theaters and the only place that you can expect your film to

be seen is at home based on it's not a big effects thing or whatever you'd you'd much rather people see a film, be able to make films and have them see it at home, then make no films at all. Right, but I don't know. I think that's kind of bullshit too, because the reason why is when all these theaters were opening up, again, you know, you have these huge, gigantic

25 plexes and stuff like that, and everybody was crying, oh, they're empty. It was like, well, what did you fucking think was going to happen? But if you go to any of the great theaters, let's say, in Los Angeles or New York, that are playing specialty programming, they're packed with people. They're all turning out.

They're film lovers, the people that you know are going to come out and turn out for this thing. And because there's one theater with 400 seats that they can fill and they can do two shows a day or three shows a day

and people will still turn up. It's like everyone's scratching their head no one's coming back for the movies. It's like, well, they're not coming back to these weird, horrible pyramids that we've built. But Paul, I think that what you're saying, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, but is there is a little bit of,

well, of course they're not going to come back because look what you're putting in the theaters is part of the problem, A, and I can say that, and I know it's hard for you to say because of your position in the films that you make, and you probably don't want to be that guy who says that, but you make the kind of films that you want that are really incredible films, and at the same time, you don't seek out recognition for yourself in a way that a lot of other filmmakers seem to do. It's never about your own sort of, you know, increasing your personal fame. So my question to you is, how much of that,

are you aware of show business, in fact, or are you kind of in your bubble of making the films that you make? No, I do, and then I don't. I slip in and out of it because I love, part of loving movies as much as I do, the history of movies and my, you know, my obsession with this work, which has been with me forever, is what I've made of my life,

it does involve being fascinated with the way that it moves, you know, like we were talking about, before I was singing in the rain, you know, that's a fantastic story, the way that, what happened to the movie business when it changed from talkies to, so I constantly try to keep an eye on that or try to understand it or have enough friends in this business from over the years that I can call up and ask, you know, what does this mean? What does this mean when this film is doing well? Or what is going to happen here?

what ties do you see turning and it's nice to gauge that stuff i i love this business and i love i love movies so much that i have a real interest in seeing it survive but more often than not the the volume of my day becomes more about film preservation you know um and and film history and trying to keep that stuff alive because um and then just sort of looking to see what's happening and reacting i suppose but i don't know um how often do you collaborate with with quentin tarentino on those efforts, because I know he's got a real passion for the history of cinema and turning people on to stuff that perhaps I haven't seen. He's great about all that, but he's amazing about it, one of the best, but he also really

runs in his own lane, you know, because he, the person who I collaborate the most with that is Scorsese because he has the film foundation. He, since the 70s, since the late 70s, early 80s, went around to every studio in town. and said, look, this is when it was really tragic, when the products they had made since their existence were really fading away and dying and weren't being taken care of. You have to, this is sort of just on the cusp of VHS

coming around in home entertainment. So he was really out there at the very beginning with the Film Foundation saying, this is the biggest cultural historical thing that this country has to offer and we have to preserve it and we have to take care of it. We have to invest money and time

and manpower into figuring this out. So being a part of his film foundation has been one of the great honors in my life. That's great. We'll be right back. All right, back to the show. Paul, I know you're a big comedy fan and you've obviously collaborated with Sandler.

And married the funniest woman in Hollywood. Or in the world. Maybe we can just say the world. For Tracy. Maya Rudolph, Tracy. Maya was one of our first guests I said that to her I said you were one of the first guests

She was like no I was I think you were She was like one of the first two or three right Maya is one of those people as you know Did you give her a piece of the pie? No no I should have We sent her a cake though Yeah She should have got that she is one of those people

That anytime you're doing anything funny you go So then it would be great And then you could get Maya Just to stamp it Yeah you know Because she's so just How did you guys meet Where did that

As Will was saying, you've been a huge fan of comedy for a long time. Did you just fan out on her and say, will you have dinner with me? It was just like that. Yeah, it's simple, right? Or did you swipe left or right? I don't know how it hurts. See, Paul? It's not easy, is it?

It's not easy to bite your tongue with Bateman. He wants to hurt me, I know. You know, it's funny. I'm not sure what it is, that it's, I guess it's like, Anything like, you know, I don't know, there's like, you know, actors that wanted to be rock stars or, you know, musicians wanted to be actors, like people that making serious films really just like, the one thing they really loved was comedies, you know? Like, I had made these films, I thought that they were funny, but people were saying, like, you know, it's not. You make really funny. Well, I think, I think, really, you never ask for a laugh, and that's what makes it so goddamn funny.

There's no winking. It's great. sorry thank you because i yeah because everything everything that that i watched or in my daily kind of existence was just like i just devoured that stuff and i met my when she'd started SNL um um and yeah what what was that meaning how did you guys meet well you know the funny thing is is that she make you laugh at home too call uh she sure makes us laugh She just must be a cut-up at home Somebody once said to me That reminds me, I think I told this once

Somebody said to me When Amy and I were married They said, what's it like being married To the funniest person in America And I said, you'd have to ask my wife But I love that Do you find that funny people

Are generally pretty serious When they're at home? Yes. Uh-huh. Nothing funny about it. But I do want to know that. How did you meet, Paul? How did you in Miami?

I really do want to. At SNL, right? At SNL, that was the time with Will Ferrell and Molly Shannon, and I had met Molly Shannon. And she said, you know, you could come and you can see how we do this. And at the time I was writing Punch Drunk Love and I was obsessed with that time that Sandler had been there. So I accepted that offer to come and look and then watch, you know, behind the scenes.

and then Molly said well you know you can direct a short so I directed a short with her in it and just got to kind of witness the inner workings of this whole thing and at that time I was also getting to know Sandler and asking him about his time there I was getting ready to make punch drunk love with him

and as I was getting ready to leave after my week there my head was spinning I was like well that was great but I don't want to fucking do that again because it was so much it was a different pace of work and I was thrilled to have done it but that was enough of a taste.

They said there was a piece of paper that somebody had put in my hands or something like that and I looked at it and the information was on it that there was a new cast member starting next week and her name was Maya Rudolph and I can remember seeing her name on that piece of paper if you've had any feeling like this but you see something for the first time

and you realize that my life has just changed. I don't know how. I don't know why. I don't know what just happened. And so... Wow. But, you know, quickly, you kind of move on. You just, whatever, you have something else to do.

You have to eat it, you know. But looking back, I, obviously, that impulse, whatever that kind of, that shining kind of feeling that can happen to any of us, if we're open to it, happened. Yeah. And so I roamed around, and then I saw her on television. and I saw what she was doing and I had stayed in touch with a few people from the show

and my God this one's amazing and I'm on my way back through I stopped to watch and we met at the show and then I had to go on to London and I to work on Punch Dr. Glove and then I got to London and I said well something didn't feel right

and I just came back to New York wow and I came back and then that's fucking beautiful man. For real. So you come back to New York because you felt drawn back to her

and called her and said, let's go out? Yeah. No, I love that. I wanted to make a joke in there so badly, but I love that story. He's melted my cold heart. Sean had that feeling, that same feeling of seeing something written

when somebody pushed a flyer for a new vons that was opening around the corner. Oh, I thought you were saying when he drove by a new chin chin and he had to double back and he knew his life. And I haven't left since. Jason felt the same way

when he found out the deadline in Hollywood had an app. But, but, but, that is, that's fucking incredible, man. I love that. Maya reminds me, too, Paul,

that you and I born the same day, same year. Every year she reminds me. I think of it all the time. We're, we're one in the same, Sean. June 26th, June 26th, 1970. You two guys are. Yeah, but what city were you born in?

Chicago, Evergreen Park. I was born in the hospital. I don't bring a park, but I just say Chicago. Yeah. Wow. You? I was born here in Los Angeles at what is now the Scientology Center, which was St. John's, I guess it was? No, it was Cedars of Lebanon.

It was called. On Franklin? No, no, the far east of that. Right there where Sunset and Hollywood meet, that big, they blew building. Almost near Prospect. Yeah, right around the corner. It went from Catholic to Scientology at that building? That's right.

That's amazing. Hey, you know, you mentioned Sandler. What was it you saw in Adam earlier than anybody else did? Well, I always liked it when Adam would get angry. You know, the violent part of him would come out. And it was like, and I guess I saw the story that I remember, there was a sketch called The Denise Show where he's talking to his ex-girlfriend, Denise,

who's played by Shannon Darry. and it's a funny enough premise and he keeps trying to woo her back but there's a moment when he starts screaming I think his dad calls up and is on the speakerphone and he starts screaming at his father and there was a moment where Sandler

he's so invested in it that the whites of his eyes turned black and it's like and I could just there was a level of anger and commitment to this performance, I said, that is something else. That he's not just screaming and being like, he potentially is completely psychotic underneath all of it, and I loved it.

That's great, I love that. Yeah, and it was, you know, he had a great physical way about him, and I, yeah, loved working with Adam. Do you ever have any desire to, especially now that there makes so many of these sort of limited series? Does that ever appeal to you

the idea of being able to tell... 400-page script? Over a longer... Yeah. Okay. I don't know. I want to be careful what I say here. Because I've only...

In the past couple weeks have become a little bit preoccupied with what seems to be a real unfortunate turn of events, which is 80-minute stories being turned into, like, nine-part, you know, things that... It just seems to be the kind of the call of the day. Like, this is what we're doing. when in fact, you know, it's like piss off.

I don't, this is stretched out way too much, you know. I mean, I was watching the Purple Rose of Cairo last night, which is about 92 minutes and absolutely perfect, and it's packed so much story. You know, it's so interesting because people say that all the time, they're like, did you see so-and-so, did you see the new series blank or whatever? And they're like, I try to get into, no, you got to wait nine episodes in. Yeah, just wait till the third one, right?

third one right i know insane can it be good after the first one yeah no so i but i only have been really feeling this lately when i'm and i i don't have a leg to stand on because i haven't really i don't want to sound like an asshole here but i haven't seen much of it because my viewing always goes like if i have opportunity to watch tv i fucking end up i'm watching old movies you know it's just sort of like my gravity pulls me that way with the time that I have in the day.

But, you know, sometimes you have a story that's very large, like a large-scale story, any kind of epic stories. And those are great. And there used to be this opportunity they would have like the winds of war or, you know, roots or these huge mini-series. It was like, okay, that's fantastic. That used to be a kind of work of art in and of itself. But now I feel this kind of slow-motion turn

towards stories stretched out. Too much, I think. I guess underneath it, I have a fear that the painfully difficult challenge of telling a story in preferably under two hours, hopefully 90 minutes, will start to get lost, because I think it's a very, very valuable storytelling, you know, that structure is great. Yeah. I don't want to see that get lost. There is the risk that we rewiring how we appreciate those things.

And I watched that, um, the story of Neville Chamberlain, uh, you know, signing the Munich agreement with Hitler over the Sudeten land, et cetera, et cetera, trying to avoid war. This was just to unwind the other night. Just to unwind. Yeah. It was on tuby, I think it was on tubing. And what was interesting was, was they was telling this really simple story that was just a snapshot of that time and of that very specific story in these two guys who tried to, uh, alter the course of

and I realized halfway through, I thought, to your point, was like, I'm surprised that they didn't try to stretch it out and that they'd actually made this film became quite surprising to me while I was watching it because we've become so accustomed to, and our brains are wired to, you know, great, there's going to be 12 episodes of this now. Right.

Yeah. Let's talk about the opposite. Trailers. I think you love trailers. Yeah. Based on how incredible your trailers are. and I think you cut them yourself? I love trailers.

Trailers are their own little art form. Right. I have cut them in the past or collaborated with people. The last one that we did was not cut by me. It was cut by a guy named Joel, who's got a company called Aspect Ration. And it was one of those great moments where I just handed the film over and said,

can you do something? And it was so perfect right away that we didn't say anything. We just said, that's it, you know. It was great. And that was a really fun feeling. But yeah, I always, that was one of the joys to me of going to sit in a movie theater. I guess there's people, there's probably two types of people in the world,

people that like to sit down and watch trailers and then people that like to watch the credits of movies, you know. People like to watch credits and people that don't like to watch the credits. I like to watch the credits. Yeah. You once described having four kids in the book, best way I thought possible. I think I mentioned this when we had my on, which was, and I'll mash this up, you correct me, that having four kids is like having four cozy fires burning in the

house, just hearing them run around, and it sounds like you're as much of a homebody as I am. How do you manage to work as hard as you do and still be an incredible father to not one, not two, not three, but four kids? Well, I hope so. I mean, time will tell. Yeah, this is very dangerous. I remember there's these great episodes where Lucille Ball doing these radio interviews from the mid-60s.

I don't know if you've heard those. They were on Sirius XM for a little while, and you hear all these people talking about their strengths as parents, and then you sort of realize, you know, that time has really proven quite differently that, you know, they hear these people talking about. You know, we really spend time on the weekends

and everything else, and you're like, uh-huh, uh-huh. Stay tuned for the book. but um i don't know you know one of the one of the benefits of writing i suppose is you know the ability to work from home the ability to be present at home and shooting movies about the valley well that helps too yeah um to not to not go too far away but even still i think that you know i don't know i when i went to london to make phantom thread there was they did come for some of the time but then they understood that for two months you're not going to see me you know But that's okay, out of 12 months in a year, as long as I'm with you the other chunk of time,

you won't miss me that much. Sorry, Jason, when he says be present, it means that you are where you are and that you're aware of the surroundings and of other people, et cetera. Got it. Not just being filled in. Right. Understood. I will say I do love, this is almost trite to say, but you're, you're.

your affinity for your love of telling stories about Los Angeles in so many different ways and so many different times. I find it really fascinating. You tell stories about the experience of California unlike anybody else because I think that there's always been that rub that California is not as interesting because it's newer, that it's not the East Coast, that it's always kind of looked down on in this way. but you tell these stories about actually how rich it is.

It's just different. And they've got the Dodgers, right, Paul? Yes, they do. You know? Well, yes, they do. Are you a Dodger guy? Yeah, I catch him up at once in a while. Hey, so Tarantino says any great filmmaker only has ten films in them.

You've made nine. Tell me that's not true. Oh, that's horseshit. I don't know. I don't understand what he's on about that. It's just like, I need more than one more from you. You got it I mean I don't know

Are you gonna You gonna do it like Clint Eastwood Until until they cart you off Yes I don't know You have to What else are you gonna do? Exactly

I think yeah What else are you gonna do You have to Because I would imagine your perspective On stuff changes as you get older In other words You would have made heartate differently today than you did then

No better no worse Just differently You haven't made one bad film Yeah, I want to see what your brain is like when you're 85, what's interesting to you and how you compose shots and all that stuff. So don't stop, please. Well, thank you.

Thank you for saying that. Thanks for making really good shit, Paul. Yeah, Paul, you're batting average is insane. You're one of the fucking greats, man. I always tell you that when I see you in person because I can't, there's no other... I can't dress it up. I just can't dress it up, man.

You have really honored us with hanging out for an hour, Paul. Thank you, buddy. Are you kidding? Thank you, guys. Please say hi to my eyes. I sure will. I sure will. I sure will.

I hope I see you guys in person for real soon. I hope I can come see your Oscar Levant play, Sean. I am really genuinely, I'm like, I love Oscar Levant. I would love for you too. Are you playing, who's playing Oscar Levant? That would be me. You're playing Oscar Levant? I'm playing Oscar Levant, yeah.

You should hear him play Rhapsody and Blue, too, on piano. You know, he's a classically trained pianist. It's insane. Polly, thank you for being here. We love you. Thanks so much, Bob. Thank you, man. Are you kidding?

Thanks, guys. Hopefully, we'll see out at the stadium if baseball gets their act together. Fingers crossed, they will. They will. All right. Have a great day, man. See you, man. All right.

See you. Bye, buddy. Bye, buddy. That was a good guy, Jay. I love him. Jay, oh, my God. I mean, I've been working this for a couple of weeks with you guys saying I booked somebody that I'm excited about that you guys won't be excited.

I tried to kind of fake it a little bit. I can't believe it. I don't know. It's fantastic. You know, it's true, though. You know, when you name all his movies for Tracy, again, I know you said at the top of this episode, but it's Boogie Nights, Magnolia, Punch Drunk Love,

There Will Be Blood. There Will Be Blood. Lickish Pizza that's out now. He doesn't miss. He never misses. And there's so many years in between him making those. You're like, oh, that's why it's so long because he invests everything that he is.

And these things, that's why, what you said, nine, right? He's only made nine. Yeah. Yeah, and they've all been great. Yeah, he's, uh, what a, what a talent, that guy. I'm really, I'm just, I'm, I think I seem pretty casual all the way through that, but my goodness is that guy a hero to me. Yeah, he's amazing.

Yeah, same. I, I, you know, I've known I'm just a little bit over the years from, through Maya, and uh, every time, I think it every time I'm always right on the edge at risk of embarrassing myself. Um, and I do end up saying stuff like, you're, you're moving. was incredible and I can't get over it. And then I have to walk away. Most of the time I have to walk away. I really, I would, I, I, I'd love for him to make some big, broad comedy.

The ones that I know he's a fan of. Yeah, I know. I know. I know. I was going to ask him that. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure he gets that question a lot. So I'm glad none of us did because I wanted to ask him that too.

But like, you know, you think about his affinity for that kind of comedy, you know, Monty Python, S&L. I bet it would just be stunning, but... Yeah, he used to be around S&L so much, obviously, and I should see it. But, you know, I liked our conversation about, you know, the streaming versus the wide release stuff because, you know, the wide release movies,

when you go see them, you have to pay for them. But when they're at home, they kind of feel like they're free so you don't have to... Bye! The race to the buy from you is so remarkable. Smartless. Smartless. Smartless is 100% organic

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