SmartLess - "RE-RELEASE: Ricky Gervais"

Episode Date: February 13, 2025

His name is Ricky Gervais. He likes a crisp IPA, a ripe international spy thriller, and he also happens to care deeply about humanity. Welcome to another wild & crazy episode of SmartLess.This episode was originally released on 12/7/2020. Subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts+ on Apple Podcasts to listen to new episodes ad-free and a whole week early.

Hey there, Will Arnett here from SmartList. It's the podcast where Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes and I interview somebody. Two of us don't know who that person is because one of us has brought on a surprise guest. That's the whole conceit. I wish I could describe it better, but I'm not that smart. So it's SmartList and it's starting now. SmartL Less. Smart. Less.

Smart. Less. You never did a guest spot over on the Mork and Mindy, huh? No, but I would have. What was your best guest spot when you were a kid? Knight Rider. Yeah, of course. Knight Rider just made my year. I was 15, and so I couldn't drive yet. So this was an opportunity not only to guest on the best show in the world,

but also drive a Trans Am, owned by The Hoff, and see how they do all the tricks over there. They had like a little guy sitting behind the seat that was like looking through this mesh sort of headpiece in the seat. I loved all the movie magic. I was gonna say, you would've made a good computer.

If they already had, you would've been a good, I would've cast you as a computer. I'd still cast you as a computer. Wait because because I know that about you it was on the other day not your episode but Knight Rider and Scotty and I turned it on and they did this like super fancy interior shot of the car and I'm telling you right now it it was disgusting in there. It was like, there was like dust and like wrappers all around it and like all the scratches on it. Like it was not pristine at all.

Yeah, or the onset dresser was not great on the show. 35 years later, you're taking shots at, you know, Transpo and picture cards. Great. Great, we'll have the local on your ass by Monday. Hey guys, I'm so glad that we're here today because we have a guest on our show. And we say this a lot, you know, deserves no introduction, but this is just another example of that. This is a person who has won almost every award it's possible to win in...

Well, you know what? I'll let him tell you about it. Ladies and gentlemen, mr. Ricky Gervais It's nice shot of the awards in the back Guys it's not all of them It's half of them. There's lots of walls. I nearly laughed a couple of times when I was waiting. What did you win the guitar for? I didn't win that. That's just something for the ladies. When they're looking at your awards.

Let me play a little tune for you. Oh my word. what a joy. What a joy this is. Yeah, it's so nice to meet you. I've never met you. I'm a huge, huge, huge fan. Thank you, how's it going, man? Good, man.

You guys don't know each other. No. No, you know, there's one time I saw you standing outside of the Beverly Hills Hotel. Creepy. And there was nobody else and I was like, oh my God, that's Ricky, I'm a huge fan, should I say something?

And then I fast forwarded in my head if I just go, hey, hey Ricky, I'm Sean. And I didn't know if you know who I was and then you'd be like, hey, and then it would just end. And so I was like, maybe I should skip that. It's kind of how it's going now. It's kind of what's happening. You win.

Well, you know, one time I was at a Christmas party at Meg Ryan's house, this is decades ago, and Steven Spielberg was in there and I'm talking and I've never met him and he's like, oh my God, and I couldn't believe he knew who I was. We were talking and talking and talking for like two hours. It was awesome. And then I made this huge goodbye.

I was like, bye Steven, nice to meet you. I go out to the valet in front of the house and nobody's there, right? And I'm waiting for my car, I'm waiting for my car, and then Steven Spielberg walks up. And it's just us two. And we already had a massive goodbye. So then I was like, hey, how are you?

And it was just awful. It would have been better if he had just said, hi, how are you, I'm Steven, in that moment. Or if he just said, bye, Benjamin. Bye, Benjamin. Ricky, do you remember a few years ago, you were walking across the street in here in LA, and I saw you and Jane walking across and I pulled up my world my window down and I said, Hey, can I get a picture? And you were at first you're like, Oh, fuck,

who's how you doing? And you went, Don't give me the fucking wave, it's Will. And you actually got out. We're gonna let the guest talk here in a second, but how many times have you guys been in the car and you like honk at somebody and then you pull up alongside them and you know that person?

Oh yeah. Oh, you mean angrily honk? Yeah, sorry. Americans honk just anything, willy nilly. If an English person honks, it's like in a front it's like people get out what the but in America It's just like you honk for anything. All right. Yeah. Yeah, it's like you've you've you've really devalued the honk No, especially in New York I think you're ready. We should take it back. I think that you're right back So a honk is like it's like the finger or something. What the fuck we should take it back. I think that you're right. Take it right back. So a honk is like the finger or something.

What the fuck are you doing? We should take them out of time. Hold on, hold on a second. What about time differences? So you're in England. I'm in LA, so I'm drinking coffee. Was that ale I just saw? Ale.

Is that what you people call it? Yes, for sooth. It was a mead, sire. Look at that. God, that looks good. It's a beer. As opposed to a lager. Well, it's it's an IPA, an Indian Pale Ale.

Yes. And what is that, by the way? That that came in after I stopped. So what is IPA? Oh, am I the only drinker here now? Well, Sean. No, no, no. Sean is a big drinker. Sean's still up from last night.

Yeah. What is it? So the Indian Pale Ale, do you know what that is? I can't be more specific. I mean, there's a three word description and I don't know of any other drink that's got three words already to really specify what it is. But wait a second, though. But wait a second. The Indians were not known for making beer when I was last drinking beer. So where did that come from?

Sorry, are you saying Indian in the real term, the subcontinent of India in Asia, or what you call? Indians which are Native Americans just thought what you arrogantly called in the end. Yeah I just want to say Ricky just give Jason enough rope. He's about to hang himself Leave some slack on it, but but I'm assuming the Indian of Indian Pale Ale means people from India. Yes? Yes, I think so. I think it was probably something equally racist in British colonial history.

So we said, we're having that. We're having that. This is Indian Pale Ale. It's ours now. It's ours. Honestly, we've gone into rounds beyond my knowledge of what I'm drinking. All I know is, it's 5% alcohol, it's 6pm. That's all I need to know.

And do you have, is this a daily thing about this time that you have an Indian Pale Ale? Yes it is. Are you only good for about 20 minutes? Is this an intervention? Yeah, this is intervention, the podcast. I don't know if you knew about that. Come on in, Jane. Jane, come on in.

I'm gonna jack up in a minute. Is that all right? Oh, that's fine. It's just drinking. We don't mind. Exactly, yeah. So did you just, now you're rewarding yourself because you've just probably just popped out of the gym.

You're probably in and out of it. I have. Yeah, have you? Would you, oh, of course you have. Look at that. Showing us his guns. And that's all natural. People say to me, hey, you're probably in and out of it. Yeah, have you? Would you, oh, of course you have, look at that. Showing us his guns. And that's all natural. People say to me, hey, you on the juice.

I go, fuck you, fuck you! Jesus, but that's why they think you're rage is outrageous. You know, you do have a build, Ricky, you always have. Was there a time in your life when you were a gym rat and you just loved to just blast buys and back? No. Blast. Listen.

You must have, because you're not born with pipes like that, are you? No. It's a shame this is only audio, because they can't see me. They can imagine. I'm posing at the moment and I've got terrible my fake tan is dripping off me I do it with a guitar and an IPA Exactly. Yeah, I do work out every day. I try to It's getting harder and harder

But and I probably shouldn't be because everything is absolutely fucked on me now. I've got two sprained ankles, which is terrible. I still run on terrible knees. I can't bend without them cricking. I've got a bad back. My shoulders are fucked. I've got tennis elbow. Yeah, I'm absolutely, but I refuse to stop doing anything.

Mostly from street fighting, is that right? Because I heard it's mostly. I'm like, yeah, yeah. Hand to hand. But I refuse to stop doing anything mostly from street fighting is that right? Yeah, I'm punch drunk But how old are you 59? Yeah, I'm about to be 52 and everything hurts Oh, you're older than me. You know Dare you this hair is real. Oh, yeah, I've had no work. I don't have two body waxes a day. Wait a second. Fucking Botox, you twat. I'm on swim team. I can't have any hair on my body.

You're only, he's only 52. Is he telling the truth, Will? No, I won't be 52 till January. Christ. He won't turn to the side because then you'll see the scotch tape and all the rubber bands and stuff. But he, from the front, he looks amazing. From the front. Ricky, do you have a place in LA or do you only live in England? I've got a place in New York.

I've lived for a while, actually. But especially this year, I've spent most of my time in Leafy Hampstead. Will's been here. It's beautiful. It's a great spot and you live next to the vicar. I do, yeah. Who is that? It's just a vicar. He said the vicar, but it's a vicar. There's thousands that I live next to one of them. What's a vicar? A vicar? You don't know what a vicar is? Uh oh. Allow Ricky to relieve you of your ignorance. Go ahead, Ricky. A vicar? You must...

It's a deep list. Like a preacher. Like a preacher. Like a local priest. Yeah. Yeah. So you live next to a priest? A vicar, yeah. It's true. You live next to a priest's house? Listen, this podcast is... I mean, it's like I'm teaching you that English I have to explain it I mean we spent three minutes on what's Indian pale ale

it's not that important what's a vicar? Fucking hell. Well you listen you've spent time with Bateman before for Christ's sake you know what you're getting into. I have, I couldn't believe my luck. I was a huge fan of Teen Wolf. Sure, two. Two? Oh, I haven't seen two. No. You're not, ah. Can I, so can I tell you, so the first time, Ricky,

that I became aware of you was from watching The Office and Janine Graffalo had video tapes at the time of The Office and she brought them back and she gave them to Amy and me and we watched them. We were about to start Arrested Development and Jason and I started watching both obsessively and we were just absolutely obsessed with The Office and we just thought we'd never seen anything like it. It was just brilliant and I remember about you were coming that you would come to LA for maybe the Golden Globes or something and and We met briefly and we exchanged numbers and you were gonna come to the set of Arrested Development

You remember and I remember saying to the the set PA I said I can't get a drive-on at the lot and she said yeah Give me the name and I said Ricky Gervais And you weren't yet a household name in this country. I'm still not. And she said, well, and she said, what is it? I said, Ricky Gervais. And she said, can you spell it for me? And I actually stopped her and I said, I want you to remember this moment of you not knowing

this name because you're going to be really embarrassed when you look back at it. And she was like okay whatever and and you came and that was our first experience and we were just Jason do you remember how blown away we were back we couldn't I couldn't get enough of that show and I still it's uncomfortable for me to even talk to Ricky I'm a little starstruck he the it was oh I ended up getting enough of it I ended up getting enough of it you it that was at the very beginning of the show. That and Jeffrey Tambor shaped, at least for me,

the whole comedic tone of Arrested Development. 100%. I kind of knew that there was that kind of funny, but I'd never seen it executed so consistently. And that was just sort of my North Star, what I was trying to, you know, point towards. It was a weird way to say this, but it was liberating to watch you in that show it really was it opened up a whole other for me anyway it felt like it opened up a whole other

way like okay this this is a possibility to go if he's not acting well we can all get away with it then I can do yeah I mean he's just mumbling and not looking yeah he makes me look like a genius. I mean... The comedy of discomfort and awkward pauses and loss of dignity with just sort of a look or a moment as opposed to jokes or anything like that. And that the length of those episodes allowed for that kind of editorial pace too is something that we sort of tried for.

I don't think we could with with our format but... Well I think it was lucky the format allowed me to do that with a fake documentary because I was emulating something. I was trying to emulate a very ordinary man who wanted to be famous so it was sort of it was easy to not be a trained actor doing that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah of course but what was the genesis? We've never really... I'm sure you've had to explain it before. It was an impression I used to do of like bosses and stuff. I worked in an office for

like 10 years. So it was like a Frankenstein of people I'd met growing up. And you suddenly... And I was always the idiot. I was always trying to make people laugh. And you know, I was that guy. I was sort of that guy without ambition or rather without nerve. I think I'd lost my nerve, I'd just been a failed musician after like five years of trying. I got a normal job and then I worked my way up to sort of middle management in an office like that. In fact the little pre-pilot that we shot, I went back to the office I used to work in and I used mates as extras. And I just ad-libbed around this character showing off to the camera.

And the seed of that was we had 10 years of these quaint docu-soaps in the 90s on British TV. The new big thing was docu-soaps. We had one called Airport, we had one called Hotel, we had one called Liner, was the set. And it was just normal people filmed, and they'd become sort of stars for 10 minutes. And of course nowadays, they become stars forever

and make millions. But then that was their 15 minutes of fame and you wheel them out. So it was ordinary people wanting to be famous. And was it the same type of format? Would they address camera? Would there be testimonials and things like that? Yeah, there was usually a narration as well.

But we didn't do that. But there was often, it was things like the cement for the swimming pool was late and they have to open it around. It was stuff like that. Right. Was it sort of a Michael Aptid? Was it inspired by the up series at all do you think well that was that's the The greatest that's incredible. I mean that's still going and yeah Yeah, but that's that really is beautiful social commentary sure these got watered down

You know and then people would be doing them because they think, well, I can be famous. Everyone says, I'm a laugh, I'll go on there. And it's like, there was suddenly too much, you know? So then it was people trying to be famous. And so that's what I picked up on with Brent, that he was a bit sad, he was forgotten, and he thought, now's my chance. And if it wasn't a fake documentary, it wouldn't work.

Because once you know why David Brent is acting like that, it's so tangible. It's so great that he just wants to be loved and famous. And it's heartbreaking in a hilarious way, yeah. I think that one of the things that I, certainly I personally really connect with with what you do is, is it that desperation. So many of your characters have this sort of misplaced,

or they just are so desperate for whatever it is. It's so funny. It's so funny and sad at the same time. I think the funniest characters, and obviously in real life, the documentary aspect of it, we like real life is the most dramatic and the funniest. Comedy and fiction can only try to emulate all those things in real life. But someone trying to be funny and is successful isn't as funny as someone who doesn't want to be

funny and wants to be taken seriously. So my favorite characters were those people that demanded being taken seriously. So it undermines favorite characters were those people that demanded being taken seriously. So it undermines everything. Someone being pretentious and then slipping on a banana skin is funnier than a clown slipping on a banana skin because we know the clown doesn't care. He wants to slip on it. So I think when someone wants to be taken seriously or says things like, I am a comedian, that's funny.

I remember getting a letter soon after the office, right? By someone saying, writing to get a part. And the letter started, dear Mr. Gervais, I am a brilliant actor. And I thought it was... Signed Sean. He went... Oh, so you got it.

You got it. Cause I didn't, I still haven't heard, so I don't know if you got it. You got it. Because I still haven't heard, so I don't know if you got it. Yeah, desperation's funny, anger's funny. People with no sense of humor is funny. People with no sense of humor is funny. The best. One of the things I think is so admirable about you,

and there's no question here, so don't feel the need to respond, because I know your humility will keep you from doing that, but all the vulnerability that you put into, all the vulnerability that you put into David Brent and many other characters that you play is really the root of the comedy. The man is so broken and a mess inside

that that is what I find so heartbreakingly hilarious about it. Yet on your stand-up It is almost the polar opposite of that in that there's so much confidence and Judgment is sort of this the character that you play and you can still get equal laughs with that So the fact that you're able to make people you know, that's very interesting because I Don't think you need Stand up slightly different.

Stand up is slightly different to fiction in the sense that when you do a sitcom or a film or whatever, you do your best and you try and make the plot work and the characters work and the art and you do all that and then you put it out there and there's nothing you can do about it. With stand up, you do it every night and the audience, it's more like evolution by natural selection because they choose the bits for you. but you do it every night and the audience, it's more like evolution by natural selection because they choose the bits for you. It's more like a science

because it either works or it doesn't. And by the end, you've got a perfect thing that works every night to everyone around the world because it's tried and tested. It's, you know, they've chosen it for you. So that's slightly different. So what you don't want with standup is an audience to feel sorry for you

because you haven't got time. You don't want that. No, you don't want that. Noup is an audience to feel sorry for you because you haven't got time. You don't want that. No, you don't want that. No, because it's the purest, like the purest, sorry, because it's the purest. Because jokes are more of an intellectual pursuit. You don't really need a context for jokes. Again, because they work or they don't. A joke can sort of work on the page. You can read a joke and it still works. You don't need someone telling it. Obviously you add to that. I think my favorite stand-ups do add to that. They've got a context, they build character.

They've got props. Yeah. Props in a bag. Sure, those are your favorite stand-ups. You love a prop comic, be honest. You are being humble here. What I'm trying to say is that the comedic flavor, right, your comedy comes from vulnerability, let's say, in David Brent,

but with the stand-up, it comes from sort of this feigned brash arrogance, and that you're able to do both so well, I find just incredible. Well, that's just because it's another character and you commit to it, and that evolves as well. But you can't just write a bunch of jokes and anybody can say them and they're going to get the same laugh. No, but you can, because, like, um, by the time humanity came around,

I'd sort of hit that sweet spot where the audience had known me for 15 years. So they knew what I was doing. They knew the irony. They understood the nuance without me having to explain it, so I could come out and hit the ground running. The important thing is this. behind the scenes, right, I think with particularly stand-up, is traditionally it's a low status thing. It's like we're a court jester.

We go out there with the other peasants and we tease the king, okay? And everyone knows what comedians earn these days, so I can't really go out there and pretend to be struggling, right? I think that would be nauseating and dishonest. I would like to see you try though. Yeah. So I keep my low status in two ways. One, I invite them behind the curtain.

I say, what, you think it's plain sailing, do you, being rich? Well, look what happened to me when I met so-and-so, or the first time I took a private jet, they thought I was the cook. So I do all that, right? And the other way I do it is I talk about things where I'm worse off than them. I talk about being fat and old and in pain and going bald. And do you know what I mean?

And being hated by the press. I don't know what you mean. I don't know what you mean. But let me... Do you think, I mean, Ricky, you started as a stand-up. You were doing stand-up before, right? You'd been doing stand-up off and on, yeah, for years. No, I started before the office, but I only started in about 1999, I'd say, was my first try.

And then you started doing that in 1999, then the office hits, and then over the last 10 years or 15 years, as you've grown and done more and more stand-up, you kind of, you build that currency right with your audience Like that that's the thing you build the momentum of that sort of relationship that you yeah I have to go out there and I want to be the one that says the wrong thing whatever Whatever the current regime is I have to say the wrong thing I have to go against the grain which is why it was hard for the last sort of few years. You know, I didn't realize half the people would agree with those things on face value. So irony was put in danger recently.

Yeah, I remember I remember going to that small little theater, you were working stuff out. Remember, like a couple years ago, I came up there. Yeah. And you're working out jokes in the audience. And I remember you. First of all, the relationship was they knew you, they came because they were huge fans. You had a limited number of seats. It was basically free, but you were working stuff out and the relationship was, hey, I'm trying stuff and some stuff was, you know, over the line for them or whatever, but you were figuring out. Well, that's the thing, you know, You do have to find the funny, but you have to go for it, and you have to be able to play. And that's the problem, again, with today as well,

because I've done shows that I'm trying stuff out, and it's been reviewed. And I'm gonna go, well, that's mad. You can't do that. You can't do someone who's just started a painting, going, it's rubbish. I haven't done it yet, I've just done the back. You know, it's crazy. So't done it yet I've just done the back you know it's it's crazy

so you you have to fight against that and um I try and keep politics, exquisite politics out of comedy because I think if you're relying on the audience agreeing with you and getting around applause it loses something comedically I want my jokes to be liked I don't care whether they're right wing or left wing or whatever right because the joke either works or it doesn't. And it actually shouldn't matter. It's meaningless anyway nowadays, left and right wing. It's a meaningless term. But I think it's important that you evolve, but not for those reasons. You don't evolve because it might be taken the wrong way. You don't evolve because you might be bullied by a reviewer. You don't evolve because you want everyone to like it. That gets you nowhere.

When did that happen for you? Because that's a certain fearlessness that I think you have to achieve. You can't, I'm sure there was part of you when you were much younger that you didn't have that, right? I've probably got more fear now, but you have to fight it. You have to know that art is being brave it is being brave and put it out there because you've got more to lose now right well it just makes me angry it makes me angry if

people don't get something or so that makes me work harder to still get the same joke out there and everyone like it and be able to defend it and sleep at night which I always have done there's this myth that I've got there and I say what I want and I don't care about what people think of me. That's just not true. It's a hell of a challenge to... I do love it when you do say at the end of it,

I don't care. Yeah, of course. I love that. That's marketing. Right. And you have to be militant about it. You have to act like you don't care. Right.

But actually, you know, it annoys me when any sort of someone thinks that you've done this or you've gone too far or I want to go, well, I've worked that joke for a year with like hundreds of thousands of people, you've thought about it for three seconds and you've got it wrong. Right. I think because reviews now are so fast and people don't think there's no nuance on social media. Like 10 years ago, like 20 years ago, if someone complained about something, it would make me think, I'd go, oh God, you know, really, now someone says I'm offended.

I go, yeah, of course you are. Everyone is. It doesn't matter. Yeah, I brought this up before that you have that great tweet that's been shared millions of times, I think now, would you say, just because you're offended doesn't mean you're right? I know people even understand that and they still fall for it. They still think no, this is different I did a tweet when I was doing the warm-up for this new show I said, um guys are there any things I should never joke about and of course Everything people said was funny Everything people said was funny. They had this disease, this thing. One person said, losing two children, which I thought was just an amazing thing to tweet.

Just an amazing thing. As opposed to one? Yeah! I did! So specific! So specific! It's sadder than one, but funnier than three. I mean, that's a definite for sure. I remember I said something similar years ago on Twitter, but something along the lines like I, apropos of nothing, like I hope you're not offended. And all these people immediately got on me. A few people sort of saying like, well, what is it you're talking about?

They were pre-offended. Yeah. And I hadn't even said anything. Yeah. Yeah. Of course. Yeah, so you're right. It's watered it down.

Who gives a shit? Because it amplifies it. You know, Twitter is like reading every toilet wall in the world. Okay? And when you look at it like that, you shouldn't ever be offended by anything on Twitter. But it also depends on the messenger. Like, I think you are a messenger of that. Like you said, it's all branding and marketing,

that's who you are. It's kind of like Don Rickles, who I thought was always hilarious. He was so offensive to everybody he met, but because it was Don, it was almost okay. But if it's somebody else trying, it's not gonna work. Well, that's the other thing as well. It's like I'm offended when a comedian

says, sorry, because I usually means that guy, a film coming out or something. The last, the last big venue standup I went to was you at the Hollywood Highland. I don't know how many years ago that business of big venue for standupsups Ricky would text me from time to time on his way to an arena just like god 18,000 tonight I don't even know if it's a big number sorry I've lost perspective thousand people are waiting sorry I've got a dash wait Ricky can I ask you something because I don't know if I'm I hope I get to see you again I just so far it's not looking great. It's not looking good. I think you're brilliant, but you know,

I always wanted to ask you like, I always find it interesting, you and I share several things in common. Like I started out really early wanting to be a pop star like you, but you kind of succeeded with an album and everything, and we're both gay, right? Sure. I don't think he was ready for that. I don't think he was ready for that I don't think

he's ready for that it's not this episode is about to go huge we both slept with bankmen and live to tell about it no but can I go get a beer oh yeah go get a beer hang on let it let him go get a beer okay good hi guys hi JB what happened your hand oh I was pulling my golf bag out of the backseat Hang on, let him go get a beer. Okay, good. Hi guys. Hi. JB, what happened to your hand? I was pulling my golf bag out of the backseat of my Tesla. Oh God! Is that way, is all of that true so far?

And I sprained the tip of my ring finger. Yes. Well I'm glad you got your A.L. So maybe we can get back to my question about music. Shawn, sorry. So listen. Jesus, Shawn. Keep us on the rails, Sean. I'm actually, I'm actually interested just because I find it interesting that you were also,

very seriously, like I've seen those music videos and I just thought it was interesting that you pursued that and were you all in on that and then it didn't work out or were you pursuing that and acting at the same time or whatever made you famous, know and then you had it all in yeah all in but but in retrospect did it all wrong um i i was in a band because i loved those songs by the way thank you um it was it was very fast it was it came and went very very quickly and i think you only know about it now because i'm famous for something else and those pictures and videos pop up on Jimmy Fallon so like anyone else in every generation I think it was yeah I found it fascinating because I was pursuing the same thing and I also then went into comedy well

okay so it started at college and we did a demo tape and we got signed and we did two singles and then we were dropped. And it was like, it started and finished within a year and that was it. Wow. You know, I think even if it had been a success then in 1984 whatever it was, it would still have been over quickly. But there are some bands that were good back then

that are still around like. And would you and Rick Astley have done a duet? Do you think you and Rick would have wham or? It would have certainly A wham or... It would have certainly been, you know, we started with the sort of the hair and makeup and synth pop. But this is the mistake I made. The mistake I made was I wanted to be a pop star

and I should have wanted to be a musician. And when I started doing this, I realized that, you know, I consciously and militantly called myself a writer-director. So people didn't think that I just wanted to be on telly because I didn't. And I came to it very wary. I came to this very, very wary, not because of the music thing, but because of, I think, the press in England. And I never revere fame. I've never asked for an autograph. I've never been impressed by seeing a famous person. And I thought that of myself. I thought the people I admire,

I admire because they've done something absolutely brilliant. My heroes are like scientists and things like that. And Andrew Ridgely. Yeah, exactly. So I feared fame. I didn't want to, I didn't sign that deal with the devil, make me famous and you can go through my bins. In fact, I probably feared it too much.

I was probably two minutes, but now I'm sort of chilled and it's fine, you know. But don't you think people that have fame wanted it? To a certain degree, yeah. But the other thing is it's a bit ambiguous when you're an actor, isn't it? Because I think you're allowed to really want to be an actor because it's fun and it's great and it's interesting and it's better than most jobs. Without saying, I want to be famous. I think it can be, because if you're a successful actor, you're probably a famous actor.

Right. Thank you. And certainly, there was easier routes to being an actor than actually writing and directing a sitcom for three years. There's easier route. In fact, it annoyed me once when the office broke and it seemed like I was just famous overnight without all the work. Someone on the red carpet said to me, and what advice would you give anyone else who

wants to be famous like you? I said go out and kill a prostitute They looked to be like I was mental It just really annoyed me Like that like there's such easier ways to be famous than actually writing a sitcom from right, right, you know than actually writing a sitcom from scratch. You know what I mean? Do offers come to you when you kind of flirt with that, or do you only create your own things

and only want to create your own things? I think the offers have dried up because it's been no for like 10 years, that I've usually been busy. And you start off and you're flat. I remember, I think the second episode of The Office had gone out in like 2001. And my agent got a call from a studio making this movie and they sent me the script and I said,

what part am I? And they said, the lead. And I said, it says here he's 26. Right? And I was 39 at the time, I was sort of 40. And they went, we can change that. And I thought, okay. And I said, I think you need, I said, who's going to go and see this? No one knows me. And they went, we can change that. And I thought, okay. And I said, I think you need, I said, who's going to go and see this? No one knows me. And they went quiet. And I went, you need John Cusack for this. And they sort of went, okay, well, thanks for the call. And in my head, I was oozing integrity

and they were going, what a guy. But actually they probably went, what a fucking idiot. Who do you think he is turning down the lead movie? He's not going to get away. No. That's interesting. And so it was no because I was busy. It was no all the way.

The first one that I said yes to, because I read it, the first one I read actually, Jane would read them and say, no, no, no, or you might, and the first one I did that I thought, if I don't do this, I'll never do one, was Ghost Town. And it just, I was reading it and I was laughing and I thought this is me. Yeah, I loved it, I loved that.

This is written for me. And so I did it and I loved it, but it still doesn't feel like mine. The things, I've done loads of things, I've popped up in things, I've done the Golden Globes, I've done this and that. But if I was to say what have you done, I'd list three or four sitcoms, a couple of movies,

and my standup. That's what I'd say was mine. Do you know what I mean? Is Jane your filter of pretty much, like is she your go-to barometer of everything? Yeah, now I don't even, I say no to everything because I'm sort of busy, but when I'm working stuff out, yeah, I run things by, if I go for a run

and I've got an idea for a routine, I come back and I say, what do you think of this? And she says, please don't do that. And I know it's good. I know, all right. I love how many times we've been fucking around or having dinner or whatever, and how many times Jane has said, you guys have to keep your voice down.

Shut the window. Shut the window. Shut the window. I have one more question about The Office. So it was an incredible success on its own. And then when it got brought here to America, another incredible success in feathering your cap with that, was it comfortable or uncomfortable to

watch it take its, I don't know, necessary or unnecessary, slight comedic tone shift to an American pacing and whatnot? You've got to think that it's not your baby. Ricky, just including that because I was sort of going off what Jason's saying, it was such a huge shift. When you see it changed the way, certainly in this country, people started making comedies. For sure there was such a direct effect. I remember watching somebody on a very famous, who created a very famous successful sitcom here saying, you know, and then we decided in the pilot,

why not have the characters talk to the camera? And I thought, shut up. in the pilot, why not have the characters talk to the camera?" And I thought, shut up. Yeah. Well, the thing is, I didn't invent the genre. In fact, my biggest influence, I think, writing it, there was someone else's work was Spinal Tap, which is a fake documentary.

That's just, I mean, that's no one owns fake documentary. I suppose what was different, slightly different about it was that it was some, we left the boring bits in. Like David Brent made bad jokes and no one laughed. I wanted that, I want to explore that gap, that social, because that's the worst thing for me. I don't get embarrassed, but I get embarrassed for other people. If we're in a group and someone makes a bad joke

and no one laughs, I just want to go back in time and go, right, do it like this. Let's do this again. Let's do it. And Ricky, what you guys did so and go, right, do it like this. Let's do this again. And Ricky, what you guys did so well on the show, and I remember this kind of reminds me of when Mitch Hurwitz was putting together the pilot of Arrested. What you've done so well is... Anyone listening, Arrested is short for Arrested Development.

It's a TV show. He just... He leaves off the last word. It's just... We haven't got... there's limited time. If we, I worked out that if we set Arrested Development every time, it'd be three months of our life. Great, now we gotta go cut that out.

But you, by the way, Ricky has called me on that like out loud in a restaurant, Arrested Development. So, but what you did, such a great job is, and then when you put that show together, you recognized you'd have David Brent do is and then when you put that show together you recognized You'd have David Brent do the worst joke or do something super embarrassing And then you always made sure to anchor that by looking at the reactions of the people around him you whip hand or whatever And that's what happened. Yeah, I remember with arrested hang on development

But but that Mitch said that when he's putting the pilot together of arrested development that he had But that Mitch said that when he was putting the pallet together of Arrested Development, that he had, he was like, it's not working. And he realized that he needed to have all these crazy characters do stuff and he needed to see Jason's reaction to it because that put it in the context. Well, that to me is that to me is the comedy. Someone doing something weird is one part of it, but it's how does it fall? What's the what's the fall out of it? That's, that's what's always interested me. And again, I learned that from Laurel and Hardy. So Stan doing something stupid

was funny, but it affecting Ollie was the joke for me. Um, that's what comedy, some company didn't have before that. There was no fallout. No one got hurt in the wake of someone doing something ridiculous. Like people would be acting and they'd be saying something, but they'd be acting like it's had somewhat normal. And so you have to react to that. People. Yeah. There's nothing weird about Martians on Mars. You put a Martian on Earth. That's that. That's interesting. Well, that's another good, very good point because that's why's why, again, David Brent was the boss. And so he shouldn't have been acting like that.

He should have been the grown-up, but he was acting like the child. So again, the big thing there was men as boys and women as adults, which again, I think is reflective. But again, Laurel and Hardy did that. Laurel and Hardy, they were children and their wives had to catch them doing naughty things. Who is it that said steal from the best? And I certainly have in, you know, Lauren and Hardy and Chris Guest and those guys. So Ricky, what do you, because I'm like, this is going to be over and then he'll never talk

to you again, and we're going to go to after. And in my mind, you go off and you start writing and creating and doing all of these things. But what is the reality? What does your days consist of? What do you do? What will you do tonight? I'll go and watch a Scandi Noir serial killer or spy thriller on Netflix or Amazon Prime or Walter Presents or BBC Four.

I want European or Middle Eastern or South American drama. I've just found, I've just found now that with all these subscriptions, I can find the best dramas in the world and- Why don't you be in one? Yeah. Cause I can't, I can't speak any languages. And also-

What about English? I see my favorite thing, right? This Scani drama is like series three and suddenly an Englishman or an American pops up and I go, oh, fucking hell. They just ruin it. They just fucking ruin it. Have you watched L'Engrenage, otherwise known as Spiral, that French cop show? It might be one of the best programs ever.

Me too. It's amazing. Another one as well, there's only one thing that might even be better than that. And that's The Bureau. Have you seen it? The Bureau. Of course. It's incredible. It's incredible. It's incredible.

There's a great Belgian show as well called The Break. Have you seen about this? Amazing. Have you seen? Oh, The Twelve. Another Belgian thing. The Twelfth. The Twelfth. Oh my God.

Wait, did you? Have you guys seen Quincy? Yeah. And what about you have you guys seen Quincy? Yeah, and what about Chicago fire guys These guys Jason spends all this time trying to figure out how IPA is made Well, that's that's so okay to quit the answer and I get up I have a coffee breakfast We go we go for a long walk, which is habit now. We get that, where we used to do that when we were allowed to go out one hour in lockdown. With dogs, cats? I know you have pickle.

You don't walk a cat, you stupid ass. Well, our cat died at the beginning of lockdown, we just got a new one. Oh, you see what you've done, Sean? Where to go, Sean, you fat dick? Go on, sorry. So you're walking the cats. No, we go for a walk, just, I go for a walk, an hour's walk. I scruple dogs.

Ricky, why don't you and Jane have a dog? Because I know you love dogs. But why are you guys more, are you consider yourself cat people or why don't you have a dog? No, I absolutely love dogs. I love all animals. I think to me all animals are unconditionally perfect in Buteuf and you know the only animal that I think you can ethically keep is a pet, a domesticated animal. But I love all animals. But the reason I have a dog is we travel too much and a cat, you can have a cat sit, it doesn't care, okay? A dog, I can't stand the dog. The dog doesn't understand. They have an emotional intelligence beyond some people. I can't bear that I have to travel so often with a dog So wait what then what happens with the cat the cat just stays home You leave out a big big bowl of milk and and no people look after it. Don't we you fool?

Yeah, yeah So your guess is that cats are so emotionally stable and secure that you can go travel around Doing all your shows for a couple of weeks and they're good But a dog your guess is that they're just emotional basket cases and they need you there a little bit more often than once every Couple of weeks. Well, it's it's it's it's based on them. It's based on knowledge No Because because of all the interviews they've done with the cats and the dogs It's based on knowledge. It's science. Science. Science. Because of all the interviews they've done with the cats and the dogs?

Yeah. So is Jane a dog or a cat? Jane's a woman. Oh. No, I'm kidding. Is she like the independent, like you can go away and I don't need to see you? Or is she a dog where she's like, I'm going to miss you, I need you back. Oh, I see. Oh, I see.

Yeah, I was trying to elevate you. Jane's got some sexy indifference, like a cat, right? It's like she doesn't really need you, she's all fine by herself, you know, right? No, Jane, Jane, Jane. She needs you. I'd like to think Jane needs me. Wait, wait, can you get through that one more time without laughing?

That would be great. Well, we're still rolling. She needs you and then don't let, she does need you. And you could bring the dog, you know, cause you're only gone a couple night here, a night there, cause you've got to go and do these arenas and God bless you. And I feel the same way I need to do arenas too.

But so let me ask you this. So what do you what do you think? You've been at home. You've been working on I know you're working on three He's doing he's doing leg lifts under the table But you've written series three, yeah, of Afterlife. Yeah. I mean, I did that quite quickly. Yeah.

And series three is season three. Season three, yeah. Sorry, we're European. And that's ready before sort of workshopping and all that. And I've basically cast it in my head. And that's ready to go. We're filming in April. So I feel like I fill the gap. I can't do gigs at the moment. head and that's ready to go. We're filming in April. So I feel like I fill the gap.

I can't do gigs at the moment. Again, that's ready to go. In fact, all my gigs this year have been postponed till next year. So I do that after I film. So that's ready to go. What about the jokes in that that might be topical that are not gonna work next year?

Are you just kind of update those? Well, luckily when you're still doing stuff about, you know, Hitler and famine, AIDS, it's pretty fucking timeless. Evergreens. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good for you. We'll always, luckily, we'll always have killer diseases and fascism.

Yeah. So, uh. Keeps us going. How do you think that looks? So you're ready to go back on the road. You've been working on your standup, sort of nonstop and refining it. I will have to change it slightly. I will have to, I think depending on what happens, because I think if the vaccine comes in and I think people don't want to forget it. And

so it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be timeless. And if I was doing it now, I'd start with it. In fact, I did a couple of little warm-ups when we were doing social distance gigs. And I started off by going, it's great to be gigging. I haven't gigged this year. The last normal time was Christmas, wasn't it? That was the last time with friends and family. And we didn't have a traditional Christmas. You've got to move with the times.

We might be cultural. We had bats. We had a load of bats. Oh, you ate bats. So I started off and got in. Oh, shit. bats. So I started off and got in... Oh shit, we should talk. Ricky, who makes you laugh?

I know you get asked this a lot. It is like one of those standard questions, but fuck it. Who makes you laugh? Well, you do. You know that. You do. Well done, Will. Present company excluded.

Present company. We got what we wanted. Print. Print. Oh, you have to categor we wanted. Uh... Print. Print. Uh, oh, you have to categorize it. You have to categorize. I mean, this makes me laugh. I mean, I... Are there people who, the way that they...

Larry David. I think Larry David is underrated. I know he did the biggest sitcom of our generation. But I think Curb Enthusiasm, 10 series of Curb Enthusiasm, and the quality just hasn't changed. And he's remarkable and he's brave and he's funny and he's a great performer. He's fearless. You guys are very similar that way.

Yeah, self-effacing too. Yeah, I think he's the all-round comedic creator of the past 25 years. I think Chris Guest, it sounds like Chris Guest you like a lot too, yeah? Chris Guest, probably the biggest single influence on me is both his style, a friend, and a mentor. Because I knew no one in the industry.

And when The Office went out, Chris Guest called me, he said his wife had seen it and said, you've got to watch this, and he loved it. And I could see why. He must have seen his influence in it. But he called me up and just said, I don't want to say it. And I was blown away, of course. And then we became friends. And then I'd call him when I wanted advice. I remember an early film I did, they wanted to do one of those screenings

where 40 people give you notes. And I said, I don't want to do it. And he said, why would you? He said, if you're letting them edit it, next time, why don't you write it with them? And I just thought that was such a lovely... Wow. And then he told me a story that the director of Rain Man did one of those things.

And his favorite comment was, I enjoyed the film, but I was disappointed that the little guy didn't snap out of it by the end. And so he'd given me those little nuggets to fear TV by committee. And he's just lovely and he's still funny. I remember he asked me once, he said, we'd just be mucking around like idiots, like kids.

And he said, if we're not suddenly not funny and no one finds us funny, how will we know? And I said, who cares? Yeah. Who cares? We're laughing. Yeah, for sure. Now Ricky, I have a semi-serious question here.

I don't want you to cry when you answer it, but with all of the information we've heard about how you started and what you thought you were going to be and the music and whatnot, you're in your mid-50s. Have you exceeded your expectations? I'm fucking out. Of course I fucking out. Well, but I mean, I'm assuming there is a higher place.

We always sort of reset our goals as we start to approach them, right? Yeah. Where are you at right now? Are you satisfied and yet still want more? Or have you hit, ah, I'm past where I ever wanted to be and I could get happy with retirement even and know that I've done it? Yeah. Before you answer that, Ricky, just know how great it is to hear how Bateman's brain works. Go ahead. I think you hone it and hone it.

You keep folding the samurai. You keep honing it and what you like. And what I like is no interference and only doing things I absolutely love. So I want to do less and less and just more of the thing that I absolutely love. So I want to do less and less and just more of the thing that I absolutely love. And that's come down to, I suppose, if I'm doing sitcom, it's just doing the, you know. And no compromise.

With no compromise, yeah. And stand-up is already there, really. There's already no compromise with stand-up. I think stand-up is like just about the purest art form outside the novel where what you think is what you can say, and it's what they hear. And that's pure. Because even with something like Afterlife, you know, I get final edit, I do it all, but there's still 60 people involved.

You still have to go, they have to give it to someone, and they still have to go, we put it out on this day. You said, whereas stand-up, I say, I want to do this venue on this day, sell the tickets, the tickets are top, I go up I'm doing this, this is it, good night. And I did and every single step of the way is absolutely as I wanted it. So it's more and more how do I get to that? And I've always known that the most important thing is being sort of happy really. I've always tried to cut out the middle of the man, just wanted to be...

I'll show you a story that sums it up. I think we're, must have been like 1971, I was like 10 in school, and there was a big thing in the early 70s where a lot of unskilled or semi-skilled workers were getting money to go on oil rigs. So you had got carpeters that they will suddenly go into oil rigs and where they were earning about 50 quid a week, they were earning like 500 quid a day on these oil rigs. It was a big thing. It was a big thing in the paper. I remember the teacher doing a thing to the class saying, okay, kids, what would you do with the money if you could earn 500 pounds a day? And it went round and the kids were saying, I'd buy my mom a house, I'd buy a car, I'd buy a horse. And it came to me and I said, I'd work one day a week.

And I remember thinking, that would be amazing because I could have the other six days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm with you, man. I really admire, first of all, you know I'm a huge fan of your standup and I think it's so... I watch it in awe,

because I think it's so scary to... You know, it just seems like the scariest... Like you say, it is so raw. It's just you and your relationship with the audience, and everything that's coming out, and man... But it's not scary. It's the thing that you do it. I think driving a car is scary scary because I can't do it. But when you realise that you've got that safety net for the first, you go out there and you try stuff out and if it's not working, you don't put the tickets on sale. I've done 50 gigs before I

sell out a real gig and I know what it's going to be like. It's going to be the same as the, you know, I mean the scary thing is, you know, recently the scary thing is, you know, this council thing being council, if you say the wrong thing and suddenly, you know, Netflix can take you off their platform or, you know, um, so that's the scary thing. But how do you vet that then? How do you really go through your stuff and who's going to be the arbiter? You can't, you can't because you don't know you could be the most well politically correct stand up in the world at the moment, but you don't know you could be the most woke politically correct stand-up in the world at the moment

But you don't know what it's gonna be like in ten years time You can get canceled for things you said ten years ago because you don't know what it's gonna be like in ten years time. And it also seems like the people that try to use specifically because I remember that the the Golden Globes were all of them they're so fucking funny, but You were so great. But I remember the same people, it seems, that try to cancel you are also your fans.

Are also the people that hire you and also the people that still wanna work with you. The thing is about this, I think the misunderstanding about cancer culture is some people think that you should be able to say anything you want without consequences, and that's not true, because we're members of society, and people are allowed to criticize you.

They're allowed to not buy your things. They're allowed to burn your DVDs and they're allowed to turn the telly off. What they're not allowed to do is to bully other people into not going to see you. Or there's some people that are doctors, there are great doctors, they're getting fired from a hospital

because of a bad joke they made on Twitter. And I'll go, well, that's not relevant to what they do. So I don't think what's being canceled, it's having no platform, isn't it? And what can they do to me? Because I've got this now, who's going to cancel me? Twitter, YouTube? If I have to, I'll go to Hyde Park

and stand up on a bench and shout shit. So I got in a lot of shit. They almost cancel me because because I've I killed a hobo and I thought that's nothing to do with my job. No, that's something that I did on a weekend. Well, that's the other thing as well. You if you don't break the law, yeah, people just cannot not buy your material. Whereas some people get cancelled because they've actually broken the law. I talk about this in my new stand up about, you know, what is being cancelled. And I suppose that's a scary thing because it's a real consequence. Right. No one looks at the argument anymore.

They look at who's saying it and they make their decision. There is no nuance. And some of it's down to politics And some of it's down to politics, some of it's down to social media. Because it's too fast. It's way too fast. As I say, 20 years ago, if you were offended by someone on television, you got out a pen and paper, you went, dear BBC, oh, fuck, I can't be bothered.

Now you fire off a tweet, and that tweet goes on the fucking news, because someone else argued with it. So it's this road rage. It's things happening too fast that you can't take back. And people dig in and people want to be heard. People want to feel that they had an effect. It's why people heckle a comedian.

They want to feel they were there. I was here. And so now people are heard. And the microphone is the same volume. Everybody has equal access to it. Yes. An idiot stands next to a genius on Twitter and it looks the same. It's the same font and exactly.

And that's what's so dangerous and the genius has earned it and the idiot hasn't and yet people don't make that distinction at all anymore. Well exactly and it comes back to what we said at the beginning. Just because you're offended it doesn't mean you're right. And in recent years we've had this thing where people would say my opinion is worth as much as the next person's and that's true. But recently we had my opinion is worth as much as your fact and that's simply not true. Now people are offended by facts. People now know that when I do Happy Birthday Earth 4.6 billion years old I'm having a go at fundamentalists and they know. They go, why have you?

Because they take facts personally. People take facts personally. I could talk to you about all that stuff for like nine hours straight. I love it, I loved everything. Oh man, I bet he's looking forward to that. Listen. And I mean straight.

No interruptions, no sleep. Ricky, what was that joke that you talked about? You said that sort of that idea of people being offended or online or on social media was the equivalent of running down to the town square. Oh, where people that, yeah, I do it in humanity when this bad woman's arguing with me, getting offended by a tweet. Like I was tweeting them. Like I'm just tweeting, I don't know who's following me. That's like going into a town square and seeing a message that says, guitar lessons. And you go, I don't fucking want guitar lessons.

And say, if people, it wasn't to you. People jumping the way of a bullet and saying, why are you shouting at me? And people have done that on purpose. They've tried to give ideas a human right. That's why, so if you criticize Christianity, people say, why are you criticizing Christians? And I go, I'm not. I'm criticizing the ideal. I'm discussing an idea. It's like me getting offended where someone hates maths. And it's not mine. Maths isn't mine. It's a concept. It's an idea. It's like me getting offended where someone hates maths.

It's not mine, maths isn't mine. It's a concept, it's an idea. So, but anyway, this is for our nine hour podcast. I love that stuff. Oh man, that's gonna be a real hit. I tell you what, part two through 12. When are you coming to Los Angeles? Or when can, Will always gets to see you, always gets to hang out. Two through twelve. When are you coming to Los Angeles?

Will always gets to see you, always gets to hang out. I want to, I won't bring Sean. I see, I do actually see four people when I'm in LA, don't I? I can be small, I have a four and a half. Will and Mitch, we always invite you, but you're always having a body wax or something. Hurry out here, please, or I'll come see you there. Don't make like you don't know me when I call you. You'll never come to England.

I wanna call, what did you call it? Leafy, where do you live? Will's been here. Will calls me up and goes, I'm around the corner. I go, what? He calls me up. He's here all the time, back and forth between Samarit's and.

Yeah, he's hopping off yachts and shit. I never go to Samaritza, only Gustav. So listen, I didn't even say it right. No, you didn't. Well listen, yeah, I do miss hanging out and I do miss going over there. I love spending time in the UK and I love spending time with you.

All right, goodbye, we love you. Goodbye, Ricky, we love you. Ricky, thank you so much, man. Guys, and remember, well, you tell the other guys if anyone asks Is he in the SAS? No, he's just a comedian, right? Okay got it Okay Wait play us off real quick with something with that grab that guitar play us off with something just a quick just a quick little Just a single chord. Oh, we didn't have to touch this on here. We go here we go

Pretty girl on the hood of a Cadillac, yeah. She's broken down on freeway nine. I take a look and get her engine started. Leave a purring and a roll on by, bye bye. Free love on the free love freeway. The love is free, the free love freeway. Love is free. Freeway's long. I got some hot love on the hot love highway. Going home cause my baby's gone.

She's gone. Ricky Gervais everybody. Wow. That was awesome. Incredible, Ricky Gervais. Thank you, Ricky. You're beautiful, mate. Ricky, you're gorgeous. Hey, listen, it's getting late You're gonna have to get those those prop awards back to the prop house. Okay, buddy

Love you, thank you. Bye. Bye. Bye. Oh What a man was How great was that? Well I love that you guys knew him. I've never met him. And I was serious about the influence he had over me, over the show, over... I just... I think he's it. Have you guys ever seen him debate religion with Stephen Colbert? No. I mean I've seen him debate religion with lots of people. He does it online, he does it in person.

Yeah, it's really interesting. Wait, does Colbert... Colbert is Catholic, and Ricky's saying... He's an atheist, yeah. Really? Yeah, it's really fascinating. He's incredible. Anyway, I'm a huge fan of his.

I think he has a brilliant mind. He's an incredible guy. He's so funny, and he's such a sweet... Which is funny because like Jason, you were saying, you know, some of his characters, he can be very confident. Even though he can be self-evasing, he can also be very confident. And he is confident. He's just a smart guy. He's a very level-headed and sweet, sweet guy. And super smart, which is why it was good to have him on our show because he was able to help us. Yeah, I love that thing at the beginning where he's like, wow, are you guys just idiots?

Yeah, it's called smartless. Yeah, we go ahead and give you a big hint right at the top. Yeah, I mean, the bar is low and it's advertised. You know, it's like... I want to meet Jane. I want to hang out. Oh, I have met Jane. I've met her, but I want to hang out with her I'm fascinated to see what we'll include you guys. Oh, I'll include you in the dinner. Yes, please

I would love that. Yeah. Smart. Less.