SmartLess - "Rian Johnson"

Episode Date: November 28, 2022

Pull those Knives Out and lay some Brick: it’s writer/director Rian Johnson. We discuss ‘making movies with a bunch of friends,’ and a hairy Yul Brynner. Plus, anonymous caller “Scotty” chimes in with questions! Grab your Green Milk; it’s an all new SmartLess.Please support us by supporting our sponsors!See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You have made your biggest mistake of the day by clicking on SmartLess. We've got some very questionable entertainment coming up with a mystery guest to a couple of morons, so I guess enjoy SmartLess. I ate a whole bar of toffee. Really? Yeah. Wait, what is, so toffee is not taffy. But it's a hard crunchy, I only know, so it's peanut brittle without the peanuts, is

that right? I think so, something like that. For dummies? Sure. Yeah, for dummies. Seriously, toffee, have I ever, oh no wait, toffee is that chewy gooey, it's like caramel, right? No, it's crunchy.

It's like brittle. It can be brittle. Yeah. Right, so it's peanut brittle without the peanuts. I think so, with just the butter or something. I've never seen it sold by itself, toffee. It's so good. Look at the look on his face when he's...

Yeah, where'd you get that? He's so mad, look at the jealousy. My niece is leaving tomorrow, she just walked in the door said, thank you for the treat. Here's some toffee for your troubles. Here's some toffee. Yeah. Yeah, some toffee for your troubles. She's the worst house guest ever.

By the way, are you, what are you crazy? She knows what he wants. Yeah. Exactly. That is a goal. She's a good house guest. Right? Yeah, she's the best.

She learned from the best. She learned from Tracy, friend of the show. I took my nails too. Ew, she left you her nail clipper? It's disgusting. No, I just clipped my nails because we only have like 15 minutes in between shows. Where have you put the dead nails? Right here in this napkin.

Ew. Oh my God. What are you supposed to do with them? How often do you clip your... First of all, you don't need to do it on camera. What are you doing? How often do you clip your nails? What?

Will. Have you lost... Yeah. How often do you clip your toenails? As needed. Really? So what is that? Like once every two weeks?

Something like that? It's like a month. It can be. Sometimes I go, if I go, look, wow, they're growing really quickly. That means that I'm like really healthy and they're just very white and very, you know, very firm. Okay. That's enough.

So you're doing it yourself. You're not going to a salon. No. Like, it's like, Sean, do you go and you, do you get your feet taken care of and your hands taken care of or are you a self-care guy? I'm a self-care guy with my nails and my feet, nails and my hands and my feet, but I usually go like a month. I do like a pedicure.

When's the last pedicure you had? Well, don't lie. No one's listening. It's just you and me and Sean. No, it was before 2020 and before that, it was quite a long time. There was a period there about 15 years ago, no longer. I'm not really interested in the sincerity I'd serve, so you don't need to fucking lean back in your chair.

You don't want me to look off into space. Yeah, because it's not really acceptable for men to have like a steady routine of manicure, pedicure. I've only had a half dozen of them in my life. I disagree. What do you mean it's not acceptable? Of course it's acceptable. I think it's just not as common as you think.

I think it's excessive male self-care. What are you talking about? We produced the documentary that we were in. Right. In a joke, like it's like, here's a documentary about all the freaky things that some weird dudes do to self-groom. What was that? All you need to do is just do what you're doing, Sean, is have one of those $2 little

clippers there or if you're talented with your teeth like I am, you do a little tasteful, no pun intended nibble on your fingernails. That's unacceptable. All right. Well, this is a great segue. I guess. It's a perfect segue. No.

Okay, so we got with us today a writer, director, producer of the highest level, okay? After bursting onto the scene with hits like Ninja Code, The Origami Master and Evil Demon Golf Ball from Hell, this man has consistently received praise and respect for each of his films while simultaneously selling lots of tickets and popcorn. It's not easy to do both those things. He's got an Academy Award nomination, a diploma from USC Film School, a wife named Karina, a bright future and a blinding present. You know him from his film Star Wars, The Last Jedi, but you love him from his film Knives

Out. Folks. What? This is Ryan Johnson. Ryan, please join us. Oh my God. No way. Oh my God.

Okay. Take it easy, Sean. Take it easy, Sean. Ryan. Oh my God. Do you want to know what's so wild? I was like, who is this guy? This guy's amazing.

Right? I try to get a meeting with you and you're like, I think he's acting Star Wars. Yeah. And I was like, ah. Yeah. He's busy. He's busy. Welcome, Ryan.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming. This is so wild. You look like you've got a fairly professional setup there. Yeah. You're quite adept at the podcasting. So I'm in my wife's podcast studio right now. My wife Karina Longhurst.

She has a podcast. She does. Yeah. It's called You Must Remember This. It's like a Hollywood history podcast. It's your wife? Yeah. That's her.

Yeah. I tried. We tried to get into business with her. Uh-huh. She couldn't make her deal, huh? No, she's tough. What happened? Nobody in their family wants to have anything to do.

My household is just hero for two, Sean. Just denied you, Sean. Try their dogs. I mean, it's such a fan of that podcast. It's such a great idea. And she's got an interesting history too, right? L.A. Weekly Film Editor. Yeah.

She was a critic. She was the main. When we met, she was the main critic for the weekly and for the Village Voice. Wow. Yeah. Now, how did you meet? Like at a junket? No.

Well, we kind of knew each other online, but then we first met. Yeah. She was like paid 500 bucks to like drive out to the middle of Jersey and do a Q&A with me. And we kind of flirted and from an audience full of old people who were there to see a free movie. Could you sense that the flirt was on there on stage during the Q&A? Yeah, but we didn't actually get together until like a year later because she lived

in New York. And L.A. and so it wasn't until she moved back home to L.A. that we actually got together. And you already knew each other online a little bit. That sounds, is that as grimy as it sounds like? No, no, no. There was never, there was no grime pre-getting together. Right. We were just friends.

After getting together, plenty of grime. We were just friends. So much. Well, thank you, thank you, thank you for agreeing to do this. It was a pleasure. It was very, very, very cool. Well, let's, let's, let's, let's jump in with, now, Annie Hall inspired you to become a director.

Oh yeah. What, what, what was it about, there's so many things about that movie that I'm sure everybody listening allows. Tracy, Tracy, the name of the movie was Annie Hall, not a person. Right. Yes. Thank you for that. Tracy, you never underestimate the thickness of Tracy Brown, sorry, just bear with us.

So what about Annie Hall said to you, I got to go do this? Well, I, I should, I don't know if you guys have on like your Wikipedia pages, something like this. I was interviewed for like a book that's like the movie that inspired you to become a filmmaker years ago. Oh. And I was like, what about this movie? And they're like, well, that was already taken.

Like, what about this movie? Got it. So we got, I do love Annie Hall. I think Annie Hall is a great, great, great, great movie, but right now it's like. But that wasn't the one. Well, there were like a bunch of them. What was the one? What was the one they said was already taken?

And you know, the reality is that probably like a lot of people kind of like our age, like there were kind of the, the movies as a kid that actually probably like and did the inspiring and those were like the Ambulan movies and those were E.T. and Star Wars. But then you, I got, you get to film school and then you discover Fellini and you discover Scorsese and you discover the Cohen brothers and you kind of, you know, and so there's kind of that round of them. Yeah. Jason, talk about when you discovered Fellini go.

Go. Yeah. Listen, I was, I was on the off the coast of, of Crete, actually. Yeah. It's a miracle. Like, oh my God. No, but your, your style is, I mean, it's just, you're, you're so creative with that camera and the story and how those two things in a really beautifully odd and intricate way

intersect. Oh, what was there a particular film that, that did that because that's not a, that's not an easy thing to do. It's certainly not common that you went, oh God, I'd love to be. Be able to figure out how to do that because you do it in your sleep now. I don't know. I don't, there's no like, I mean, that's very kind of USA, first of all, but no, I don't think there's like one that's like a, that was kind of just like the one.

It's kind of like a cloud of movies that I grew up watching, but mostly, I mean, you know what, I mean, and I don't know if you guys did this, but I kind of just grew up making movies with my friends and it wasn't kind of any kind of high aspirational like craft type thing. It was literally just how we kept ourselves busy on the weekends was just. Yeah, but there are, but there are some filmmakers that are just fine to sort of, in your case, write, write a story and then just shoot a story. Make sure we just photograph this script.

But then there are other filmmakers like, like yourself and say, like the Cohen brothers, that there's a, there's such a specificity to the, the, the composition of the frame and the movement of the camera that is looking to elevate. You're talking about elevating the material is what you're talking about. I'm going to take a lot of words out of the question. Whereas like Spielberg is, you know, not to belittle him at all, but there is a much more sort of traditional way in which that he is what a slight comparison to what the Cohen brothers are doing.

It's certainly a different style. And so how did you decide to go one way or the other? Yeah. I mean, I would, I mean, first of all, I would, I would, I would, in terms of Spielberg in terms of what he does, like that he's actually someone that I, in terms of filmmaking style and craft, the way that he blocks scenes and the way that he shoots them, even though I'd actually, because he's not throwing the camera around in all kinds of crazy and sane, ostentatious ways, but he's covering the scenes and blocking them in such a way where it's like Michael

Kurtis. It's like watching Casa Blanca. It's so elegant and so perfect. I think there's the lost art of sort of staging that, that Spielberg has in a way that a lot of other directors don't have. Yes. But also, you know, and if you look at Close Encounters and Jaws, he, I don't see this a lot in movies where people are having multiple conversations at the same time in the same

scene and talking over each other. Well, it's kind of Sean, there's a great scene in Close Encounters where he, where Richard drivers is kind of losing his mind, he's going back and forth between kind of the kitchen and the living room. You know that, you know that scene, right? Yes. And the camera just keeps moving with him and the, and the scene is about. And the kids are running back and forth.

Yeah. It's about three and a half minutes long. And they're not worried about it. It's not like now. They're not worried about like, let's just get the coverage. So we got it. It's none of that shit. It's a conversation.

And you feel like you're there. And you're really part of it. Yes. You feel like you're in it. And there's no need for anything but that because that's the most important thing. That sort of. And you don't watch it and think, oh my God, what an amazing one shot scene. You kind of forget that it's just one shot by the end of it, which is miraculous.

For sure, Woody Allen did that really, really well and Robert Altman does that really well. But the Cohen brothers and something that you, I mean, you could, you can do the, the, the former as well. But the, the, the using the camera as a performer, I guess is my, is my point is a different effort. No better, no worse. It's just a different tool. And I was just wondering if there was a, a film.

The Cohen. Yeah. Absolutely. Like Miller's Crossing and Barton and Fink were like the two big ones for me watching stuff. But I was also watching tons of Sam Raimi's movies, you know, like, like, you know, I'm dead by dying. Stuff that was using the camera in ways that's more overtly, I don't know, fun, just kind

of throwing it around, you know, I mean, part of that goes back to just the, the, you know, goofing around with your friends and kind of what would happen if we tied the camera to a bungee cord and threw it off this bridge, you know, like what's that going to look like? Literally just like, what's that, what's that going to look like if we try this and try that. Now when you went, a lot of people don't know this, but you directed three episodes of Breaking Bad. When you did that, I'm sure it was because you, you're simply just a big fan of that

show, like every, everybody else, we all, all of us included. Was there any sort of like, well, I kind of want to put my stamp on this, but I, as any episodic director knows, if you, your episode looks any different than the last one, you've done a bad job. So how did you, was that uncomfortable for you to kind of stay within the lines there? No, not, not at all. And also it's weird, like he, like Vince actually, he saw my first movie, Brick, and he, he called me like, I think it was right after the first season.

And so I hadn't like, I kind of, this show hadn't really like broken out yet. It wasn't like a big phenomenon when I signed on. So I just thought it was a cool show. And, but no, when the writing is that good and when the actors are that good and the show is that solidly defined by Vince, it was just, I don't know yet, but I don't, I don't know if you're, I don't know, or I don't think you're ever like coming into anything, your own movies, hopefully trying to like put your, if you're conscious of like putting your stamp on it to the point where that's a thing, you know, especially if it's someone

else's thing, you're just in, it was just trying to put what's on the page as powerfully on the screen as possible in, and, did you ever make a cameo in any of yours? No, I've never, never, my hand always ends up in my movies, but it's inevitably, it's because you're doing some insert shot and you're trying to describe how to pick up the dice or something, and you're just like, oh yeah, just give me the jacket, I'll just do it, and you just get in and like do it, but I was, yeah, I've been Luke Skywalker's hand once, and so it was, I was like, yeah, every single movie, I end up, I end up, yeah. I had my stand-in do, I had to leave for something or something like that, we were doing an insert.

And he went into the baseball game with your kids, right? Exactly. And there was, there's a thing called an insert listener where you're, you know, your hand is holding your phone and they got to do a tight shot of the phone of what you're looking at so you can see your hand really closely, and so he, he did it, and he had these incredibly feminine hands, like, like just like more feminine than my wife. It would never match. And I, I did, I mean, I've got these meat hooks, and I ended up seeing it, and I was

like, oh no. The meat hooks of Malta. Yeah, exactly. By the way, Jason, I met a Maltese guy recently who was aware of the fact that you have Maltese origin, I'm not joking. Yeah, these are like, these are hands thick enough to pull in a fishnet, you know, so the, the netting doesn't cut into the fingers. Yeah.

That's worthy. The fishmen on the side. And we will be right back. SmartList is supported by visible. The holidays mean more time with family, which can mean sometimes more time for family drama. When it comes to food around the holidays, you know, me and Scotty kind of fight over the mac and cheese, the most like who makes the perfect mac and cheese, and then he stands over my shoulder while I'm cooking and I'm like, can you get out of my face?

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And it's about this time of year around the holidays, when those two like fall in love and bond over their Diet Cokes, I can't ever walk into a room with those guys without one of those cans in their hand downing this delicious Diet Coke that they just go on and on and rave about. Seriously, they're obsessed with it. I'm obsessed with how obsessed they are. I love that Diet Coke is in its 40th year because I think your 40s are when your confidence peaks and you become the best version of yourself.

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Yeah. I mean, I had really, really bad grades in high school because I was just making movies with my friends all the time as kind of, it's a bad student. And so my grades were bad. I hadn't like no connections at all. And so I didn't get in actually to the film school at USC, but I got into the university and I don't know if you can still do this now, but back then you could go undeclared. And so I didn't have any other options and I knew USC was where I wanted to be.

So I just went undeclared. So I just took general ed classes and kept reapplying every semester to the film school and I kept getting rejected. I got like five rejections. And finally I hit my junior year and I rejected again. And so at that point though, I'd become friends with tons of film majors and I was sitting in film classes. I was fine.

So I became a literature major and was happy. And then the mid points of the next year rolled around. And so I wouldn't recommend this for anyone who's trying to get into USC, but I wrote kind of like a sort of an FU letter kind of, it was really obnoxious and really, it was just like a one page thing where just, you know, whatever, 19 year old me was just like, I'm a filmmaker. I don't need your program. And it was, it was really obnoxious and terrible.

But they let me in based on, yeah, I guess, I don't know what that was. It worked. Did they teach you anything? I mean, a lot of people say that films, you can't learn how to make a film until you make a bunch of them. Do they teach you anything in there that you still use today? Of value? Well, I mean, I think the, and it's interesting because some of them, like my friends, kids

and stuff who are considering film school, like ask me, talk to me about that. I think the real value of film school is two fold. It's actually, it's having just a bubble in your life carved out where you can watch all the movies in the world and hopefully make a ton with you. Because I do believe what you said is right. You can't learn how to make movies in a classroom. You learn it by watching movies and by making them. But also it's the friends that, that's the friends you make in film school.

That's why actually it's not even necessarily USC. But the one advice I always give is there is value in going to film school in Los Angeles because the people you meet there are going to stick around in LA and that circle is going to remain intact. And then you're all, we were all kind of helping each other through our 20s when we were broke and trying to get our jobs and first movies made. But yeah, I don't know, I had some good teachers, but I don't think that you learn how to make movies.

Did you get going right away afterwards or were you making pizzas and yeah. No, I was doing it. I got some good day jobs. I did have through my 20s some really nice day. I worked at a preschool for deaf kids, like as their AV guy and I worked at the Disney channel like producing promos for like bearing the big blue house and was able to kind of keep a roof over my head. But I wrote my script for my first movie, Brick, when I was right out of college and

I didn't get it made until I was 30. So I basically spent my 20s like trying and failing to get this little movie made. But just kind of doing it whatever you could in sort of moving in the direction. That's what I always say to people too. You got to be kind of moving in the direction of the thing you want. You're not going to be able to actually do it. But keep moving in that direction. Is that right?

I'm also really glad looking back at that time that I didn't have a job really in like production or in because that I think that's there's an illusion of being close to it and a job where you can't actually advance into what you want to do and it sucks up all of your time and energy. And I think if you want to work in production, that's great and that's a great path. If you want to make your own movies, I feel like, I don't know, I feel like spending your time writing and rewriting your own scripts and just making your own movies and having a job that pays the bills, but that doesn't, you're not working 18 hours a day and you

know. But you know, I saw, I did this thing. We're friends with, I mean, I'm sure you know Tyco, YTT and he's a great filmmaker and great guy and he said to me, we were doing this thing last year and he goes, we've actually worked together before. And I go, no, we haven't. And he goes, yeah, we have made. And I go, no, I would know Tyco and he brought up this video on his phone and he was shooting

promos for NBC and it was like an upfront promo. Really? Yeah. For all the stuff. And he's like, I came and shot you and Maya and Christina on set for this thing for NBC. I was like, holy sh. That's amazing. And he was like, yeah, I was like, he was like a job.

Like he was came, you know what I mean? He was like trying to, he was moving. That's fantastic. And I had the experience with, it was, I think I met Thomas Hayden church and I was able to, because I shot like a promo thing for George of the Jungle 2. I think. You see? Yeah.

Yeah. I was like, we have met before. Yeah. We'll do that. Yeah. You're like, okay. Now on the George of the Jungle 2 promo video, I want the camera, the camera finds you. The camera's going to find you.

Well, you know what? The camera's going to be in the jungle. So Ryan, I have a question about loopers, one of my favorite movies knives out is one of my favorite movies. Of course. Star Wars. Brothers Bloom. But wait a minute.

You wrote the script for looper. I can't imagine for those of you who haven't seen that, but tons of people have seen it. But it's, it's like a time traveling thing where, you know, the tar, someone's like the criminal set in the past where the hired gun guy is waiting to shoot him or something, right? And then somebody's threatened to close the loop. You haven't seen it because the way you describe it doesn't sound like it. I can't describe it because it's more, it's more intelligent than I can put words to.

You need the visual clues to really get with it. Yeah. Yeah. But it's so, it's so intricate and woven and like complicated to write, I imagine, because watching it, sure it all makes sense when you watch it, but I was like, this is a super high concept that massively works. But how did you come up with that idea? And was that a nightmare to write that?

Yeah. I actually wrote that as a short. So, and I think maybe that helped. I wrote that back before I got my first movie made when I was just getting really frustrated about just thinking about money to get my first movie made all the time. And so I just went back to kind of making shorts with my friends and we made a few. And this was when I wrote the dance shoot, but it was just a very compact voiceover driven like la jete style, like short, and I think maybe that helped because the core idea of

it was simple enough to be written in a couple of pages and so expanding it out. So, didn't you make all your bunch of shorts for Pride when you did it? Yeah, I got right into where the action was. I wanted the camera to get up real close. No, I mean, actual shorts. Oh, sure. Ryan, are you good at, I would imagine, I've only written once and it was the hardest thing I ever did.

I don't want to interrupt, I want you to continue this, but I'm watching Sean, he can't wait to talk about Star Wars. We're going to guess this. And I want to talk about. He's been really well-behaved. He's been really well-behaved. Just sit on your hands. He's been really well-behaved.

I have a thousand questions about last year. I know. It should be noted he's been really well-behaved. That's really hard for me to shut up. To sit in a quiet room and stare at the wall and think forward enough to know whether your idea is actually going to work and then to come backwards and start writing, I mean, that process of all that puzzle fixing with something as intricate as that, is that difficult for you or easy?

Well, no, man. It's hard. Yeah. No, you know, it's hard. I mean, I think, but the hardest thing, I mean, it's easy to make it complicated. Like as you know, it's hard to make it work, which means making it simple, you know, something complicated sort of giving it a simple enough dramatic shape to where the audience is actually going to be taken on a journey as opposed to get lost and just feel like it's math.

That's what's, that's the hard part, but yeah, but I do like structuring what's happening. Sorry, sorry, our buddies have a great time. Grandma just yelled downstairs for the kids to come up. There's the other Star Wars fan. Hey. Go put on your outfit real quick, Scotty, and come ask the question. Go grab all your figures. Bring all your action figures.

He's going to text me a question for you. So Ryan, because your stuff is so, is so tailor made, right? You write it, you shoot it at times, you edit it. Was it, was it, I can't imagine you had that much autonomy when you said yes to Star Wars. And if that's correct, was that a difficult adjustment for you to kind of do someone else's stuff? I mean, the craziest thing with Star Wars is that's not actually, it was actually just like making another one of our movies I did actually have.

Yeah, I mean, it was, I mean, yeah, it really was like kind of to a, to a crazy degree. I mean, I was, you know, it was a little different than that when I was coming up with the story. I was getting together with some folks at Lucasfilm who were like part of their story group and, but even that, it, it didn't feel like it was like a constricting. It has to be this, it has to be that. It felt like we were really just kind of talking it out and like they were kind of helping me find the direction, you know, that, that I wanted to take and then it was, it was just a wonderful process.

And then it really, even on set, it felt like, I don't know, like the actors kept saying it felt kind of like the biggest independent movie they've done. Like it had that vibe, but that, it just felt like making one of our other movies. You know, you know, one of the greatest experiences ever in my life in a theater was seeing The Last Jedi and the big reveal that Luke wasn't there. Oh yeah. Right. And the fight.

I mean, that was mine. Everybody in the theater was like, what the, everyone's head exploded. What do you mean he's not there? He's a ghost. It was crazy. It was nuts. But anyway, was that your idea, by the way? Spoiler alert.

Yeah. We'll flash that on. No, but wait. Whose idea? Like that was like never before seen in any other Star Wars movie. It was so cool. Yeah. That was that was my idea.

It was all about wanting to give Luke sort of the, I wanted him to have a satisfying moment at the end where he faced down Kylo and they had to be face to face and he had to beat him, but. And it was like a Jedi power we'd never seen. It was. I had read references to it and some of like the books and stuff. I've read stuff where I'm like, okay, this is in the realm of, of, of this, you know, this is something that has been kind of like talked about before, but we never seen it.

But yeah, but it was all just dramatically about, I need these two to face off. If they actually face off, I don't want to have to contrive some thing where one of them gets injured and dragged away or something. I know one can't kill the, I don't want Kylo to kill Luke. And so yeah, I want Luke to win. And so it was all that stuff that just led to, okay, this is the one kind of dramatic thing we can do. And so tell me about the, the, something was announced, I read about Star Wars trilogy.

What does that mean? And there's like episode one. What are we doing going back to the beginning? No, are you talking about the one that was announced that was like, I was, I was going to, that I'm going to do, if I like, or, or I don't know anything about it. It just said like, this is how Sean does it. He baits you into something. It's a trap.

Pull out. But how did that, how did that come about? How did, how did the, did you, did you raise your hand? Did they come to you? Not at all. No. They, um, yeah. No, it was, and it was, uh, it was really a direct thing.

It was, it was just Kathy kind of setting a meeting and kind of, what a phone call raising it. It really was, it was, it was literally, I walked into the room thinking it was going to be a general meeting and then it was like, shut the door behind you and, um, yeah, and it was, you're like, don't tell me what to do. And they're like, yeah, you're the guy for the job. Was there, was there an, an, an, an enormous amount of secrecy around it, maybe even an obnoxious level as far as like scripts and drafts and concept ideas.

And there's all this, for the listeners out there, like for certain, for certain of these, these films in Hollywood and Star Wars, obviously qualifying the Marvel stuff and all that stuff. There's these, there's these secret and secured sites to read the script on, or maybe if it's a hard copy. Everything's watermarked or digitally watermarked. Yeah. Well, the scripts are red so that you can't photocopy them, but it also means it's really hard to read them.

I mean, we had these horrible, yeah. Printed on red paper so you can't Xerox them. Yeah. Yeah. So you can't photocopy them. Xerox, you can't Xerox a red piece of paper? Cause if it's a, Stop saying Xerox has been out of business for like 40 years.

Jesus fucking Christ. You can't make a mimeograph. But if I fact something, Neil. But if I give the microfiche to the guy. So is that right about red paper? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And we also, we had these horrible like e-readers that, um, you had to enter like a 12 digit code to get into that all the actors had to have their scripts on and it was, it was a nightmare. Yeah. It was really, well, you know, yeah, it's a real pain in the butt, but it's also, it's just kind of, I don't know, in terms of the secrecy of it, I mean, you want to preserve it for the audience, but there's also the level where it's just like people sending

drones to take pictures of like, you know, a space truck that's going to be in the background or something. It doesn't really matter. It just kind of turns into a game of, can we stop them from leaking more stuff? So yeah. But, um, yeah. Which is kind of cool. It's kind of cool.

I see that stuff like sneak onto the internet. Like it just increases excitement for stuff that's coming. Yeah. I think so too. I think so too. And I was, I grew up kind of like, you know, trolling the internet for back when the prequels were coming out in my twenties, we were all kind of getting whatever those scraps we could get it, you know, for those kids.

Knowing, knowing the, knowing the assets at your, at your disposal, the, the, the, the financing, the, the computer generated images, did any of that sort of like, was it, was it almost oddly, a, a, a speed bump to you as far as your creative, like just knowing that you can imagine something they can, they can make it, I would, that would be overwhelming to me. Like, well, how do I know what to, what to do? It's like Jerry's deli. Remember Jerry's deli?

Oh my God. Like there's no limitations. Yeah. Was that tough? It's like the diners in Santa Monica that sell pastrami and donuts and five thousand things. Right. It's the cheesecake factory menu.

Yeah. I don't know. I can't even begin. I can. But not really, because you start with it, you know, because you start with the script and you start before you have access to all that stuff, I mean, you, you start just kind of creating, um, and because we had the tight script, I guess that's the answer. We had a script that was really finished and we really went in and shot the script

and you do like any other movie you, you get on the ground and stuff doesn't work and you have to reconfigure stuff, but, um, but the reality is it was, we had kind of like I knew dramatically what we were going for with it. So no, it was never, it never felt like a, my God, we have access to all this. It felt like if we needed something, oh, thank God, we have access to this. We can make this. Did you shoot it in England with a lot of the original, uh, uh, technicians and, and yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and that was absolute. That was extraordinary. I mean, I'll tell you, just becoming friends with Frank Oz and, um, getting to work with him for, because we did one scene that had Yoda in it and I wanted it to be the original puppet. And so they found the original mold and they recreated the original. They didn't have the original puppet.

No, all this stuff, you, because this, because it, of what it was made out of, it dissolves, you know, it, it, it's not, it's not like, They're made out of toffee. Yeah. It's all toffee. I think I know where Yoda is. It's like Keen and Riddle without, yeah. Um, wait.

So, uh, but isn't it true? Like, I don't know. I just heard this. I don't know if it was Star Wars or some movie that shot over in London with the, uh, union networks over there. They all like stop working at four and they sit down and it doesn't matter where you are or something like that. That's the way it was back in the day.

So there, there was really straight, and then back, you read stories when Lucas was making the original in London, there are stories that he's crew, and also his crew despised him famously, or at least that's kind of like the apocryphal story. Cause everyone's like, what the hell is we doing this bear driving a spaceship? Like what is this? And so, right. And this young kid kind of directing it. And so, um, but no, that was kind of how it was back in the day.

The crews now in England are absolutely on board, devoted and well, and also you're dealing with people who are like us, they're Star Wars fans who are just thrilled to work through lunch. Well, it was, yeah, I mean, and, and it's, it's, it's nice because everyone's on board, but at the same time you have the resources where you're never, you know, you're never in the position where you're having to ask people to kind of, you know, live unpleasant lives. Yeah.

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All right. Back to the show. I want to talk about knives out because I love that movie. And by the way, if there's a sequel or three or four, please put me in it. I'll do one line. You might want to buy newspaper. But wait. So that movie was so clever too.

In the same way that, did you write that by the way? Yeah. Unbelievable. Not a big deal. Okay. We're not an idiot. But isn't the sequel out now? Yeah.

Yeah. So, but in the same way Looper was kind of like multi-multi-layered. It seemed like such a math problem to make that story work and a modern day who done it. Like it kind of reminded me of Clue. I don't know. Probably people have said it to you. But like it was so cool and refreshing to see what's that?

Nobody's ever drawn that comparison. This is an investigative journalist. I've never met Ryan Johnson. Freaking out. And do a sequel by the way. So wait. So were you inspired by like, because people, I haven't seen like a quote, who done it or whatever you want to call the genre in so long.

Was that kind of the impetus of it? Like what is, what is my take on a who done it? I mean, kind of. I mean, I grew up loving both, I got the Christie books, but also specifically the movies that were coming out when I was a kid and that was the ones with Peter Eustonoff as Poirot. So it was like death on the Nile and evil under the sun. And I remember I have great memories of like watching those movies with my family and feeling like I was watching something very grown up and I love those films and I love the genre.

And part of Knives Out was kind of feeling like, not so much like putting a twist on it, but just feeling like I love the genre and every time you see it, it's A, usually a period piece and B, set in England, just because they're usually, I got the Christie stories and the notion of what would one look like if it was set in America right now. And doing what Christie did and engaging with the culture, you know. As a Canadian, you know, they renamed it in Canada. You probably know that. Knives Out.

Knives Out. Knives Out of town, yeah. The requisite element for films like that is obviously is the twist, is the, oh my gosh, I never saw that coming. Oh, that's who did it. That's, you are, how do you come up with your own unique like, oh, and then if this happens and that happens, like that's a certain type of a brain. Well, I mean, yeah, puzzles, but I guess kind of the big answer is sort of, I think this

is actually really important when you're doing this kind of movie is to start, is to not start with that, I guess, you kind of, because you can drive yourself insane trying to think of what's a twist that no one's ever seen before and you start coming in with horrible stuff. Like what if the dog, you know. You write backwards. Yeah, yeah. And so I think for me, a big part of approaching these movies is approaching them almost more

as thrillers where they're driven by more of a Hitchcock suspense model. That's like the engine of the narrative as opposed to a surprise based like who done it now. And then they kind of have the trappings of a who done it laid over them and they also hopefully have something at the end. But the idea is you're taking on the audience on a ride so that they kind of forget they're supposed to be solving something. And then by the end of it, there's kind of like the, they're, Daniel Craig couldn't be

further from Peter Eustonoff. I disagree. Well, but I mean, you know, he just, yeah, is he as great to work with as he seems? I think, well, you know him a tiny bit, right? I've never met him, but I know years ago we hung out with him, me and Craig, he was a lot of fun. I just hear he's just the nicest, greatest guy. Yeah.

He seems like he's like a really well-manscaped Peter Eustonoff. He's just how a lot of people describe him. Right. It's true. Not quite as breasty, but he's like a hairy Yule Brenner, I think a lot of people think of him. Now, I've asked this before of directors and really curious about it. Who do you love to collaborate with most?

Is it the operator, the cinematographer, or the first AD, or the production designer? Oh God. I mean, they're all such, I mean, you guys know they're all, I know, but you've got to pick one. You've got to pick one. Who do you have the most fun collaborating with? Of all of those folks, I mean, so my cinematographer is my best friend since I was 18. We met each other on a student film set and so, and he's shot all my movies and we're

so close. What's his name? Steve Yedlin. Wouldn't it be great if he just said, you know what, I've got a block. Ryan, that must give you a good sort of sense of, I didn't want to say that, but it's a safety net, but just, you know, that comfort of having somebody whom you really trust and you know really well over the years in that position, who's there on this ride for you, especially when the stakes get higher and higher and you're doing things where you're,

it's really a high wire act, if you will. For instance, let's say Star Wars, you know, the legacy and all of that and what's expected. And so there's a lot of pressure built into that, whether you want to admit it or not. But I'm sure you recognize that to have somebody like that, that you really trust, who's there in that moment, must give you a sense of like, I can do this and I'm going to put it in terms that Jason can understand because he wonders, it's like having a great caddy when you're playing golf, Jason. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm going with you. No, you're with him. But right, but no, but I mean, like really, truly, it must feel great having that relationship there to lean on. It's essential. And it's just right there by my side, making a movie. Sure. Christian.

Shout out. Ryan, is that true? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, my cousin Nathan, who I've been making movies with since I was 10 is my composer. And, you know, I've been working with my producer for 20 years.

And I think it also, it's, you know, it's just maintaining sort of the making movies with a group of friends type feel, you know, which sounds like a, sounds like a line, but it's legitimately kind of what we've tried to build over the years is kind of our sets feel like a group of friends hanging out, you know, because they are, because we all go way, way back. I have two questions from Scotty. Bring it. Oh boy, you got a lot of emojis.

This is from a caller on the second floor. It's coming from inside the house. Okay, could you ever have imagined that a film student back in the day that you would have a film scored by one of the maestro, John Williams? I know he's amazing. And did you have a collaborative relationship with him in coming up with a new Star Wars theme? So was he like, I got this.

So he was, he was both, he was the most, like a picture like in your head, like the most incredible version of John Williams he can possibly imagine, just the warmest kindest. And he was that. Yes. Like 50%. We go every year to the Hollywood Bowl to hear it watching. He's amazing. Incredible.

Yeah. And also you go and like, you go to his, like I went to his house or the house that he works in, he still writes by hand at the piano and you look at the walls and he has shelves and they all look like they're like leather bound encyclopedias and you look closer and like on the spine of one is like Raiders. Yeah. That's so crazy. You pull it off and he's bound like the hand written like scores for all his movies.

But in answer to your question, the first time I heard any of his music was when we were on the scoring stage in a 200 piece orchestra, which there's no, but I don't need, I don't need to collaborate with John. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. You do your thing. The London Philharmonic.

No. We did these, we did these here. We recorded these at Sony, which is still an amazing stage. It's like the old MGM stage and it's all great LA players, but we record them. Did you cry? I'll bet you'll bet you're close to tears. I was there every single day they were recording and it was just the most like emotion. I can't imagine.

Ridiculous. I went back to the Hollywood Bowl. I went backstage. I learned the theme to E.T. It's really, really hard to play and I recorded myself and I went backstage at the Hollywood Bowl and show John Williams because somebody's like, oh, you can meet him. And I showed him on my phone. I'm like, look, I'm playing E.T.

He's like, great. Oh my God. He was great. Good for you. No, he was really sweet. No, he was really sweet. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, yes. Yeah, that was like a highlight of my life. But let's see what else Scottie says, what else color. How does that happen? Do you have a desire or I want to know this dude. You have a desire to do. Other than, other than Stowers, anything sci-fi and the sci-fi world. And if so, can you tell us like the general kind of area.

Yes, I mean, the answers, yeah. You know like alien being a haunted house movie with sci-fi or Blade Runner being a noir and yeah in that way though I yeah, I love sci-fi. I actually have a couple of ideas in the back of my head, but all right. Yeah Yeah for him, but I'll text him to him. Yeah. Yeah, you don't want to give him your phone number Hey Ryan, I know it's late. Listen just one that was your favorite Star Wars character. Hey Ryan you up This may be the Cheetos talking, but what might be great would be now you're you're obviously Incredibly Intelligent and sharp and sophisticated. What's what's the what's the dumbest most unsophisticated thing?

You do on a daily basis and this can be real housewives of Beverly Hills It can be or any of the you know not I don't want to pick on them But you know like this is any sort of reality show you watch or I have been now since and I started actually like the last week Shooting on Star Wars is when it first came out. I have been constantly playing Pokemon go Since like yeah, you shot a promo for that. Didn't you did? I shot like a commercial for one for them. Yeah Yeah, it's it's it's so dumb. Oh my god Even now even now We just are you driving around are you like are you like going out to the Santa Monica pier it's a collective?

I Have made that with my life. Yeah. Yeah, it's really it's really sad But there are there's kind of like a secret group of like adult friends I have who also play it and we have like a discord channel where we all like geek out about our it's not be a blast We won't tell anyone Please keep you keep this between us. It's just now. Are you a are you a game? Or two. Do you play games on any sort of platform at home? Yeah, you have a headset. Hang on now I don't have a headset. I don't I never I never got into them the multiplayer MP. You don't do MP

I don't I do like the story mode on stuff So like yeah, because I've tried it a few times and I was just instantly get my ass kicked by my friends So I know I always do like the story mode and kind of go through but but yeah, I've got I've got the PlayStation I guess which I've got I'm still I'm almost at the end of Zelda Breath of the Wild which is like a work of art that game But I've now stopped playing it for like four months and I need to learn how to play it again in order to anyway Yeah, it's very difficult. Well, well so much of the game is so many of these these game designers

And creators are just incredible artists unto themselves and what they create is really pretty magical stuff Well, and I feel like that with the marketplaces right now like on the different platforms the independent games that are coming out are really like Incredibly like conceptually daring and interesting and just there's a lot of cool stuff out there right now Shout out to the gaming community shout out. So so glass onion Out here. I think we're airing this probably right around the release time away There's a there's a there's another sequel that will come out shortly thereafter. Did you know back to back or no? No, I haven't written

Yeah, okay, we're gonna we're gonna put this one out and I'm gonna start writing the next one and figure it out I think yeah, yeah, I'm open to being the killer. Oh, I probably shouldn't say too late But that's that's really that's it's so exciting when we read that that they're gonna do too Are they commit to it? Did that affect the way that you broke the story for this one? Obviously, no, there's gonna be a no, yeah, no, I had ridden I had already ridden this one Actually when we kind of made the deal with them to do to do another one But it's always been in my head to keep doing and also though these it's not really a sequel It's really like another I get the Christie novel. It's a whole other cast. Oh, I said all their deal

It's just a whole new mystery. Is anybody coming back other than Daniel Daniel. Yeah, just Daniel That's it. Yeah. Yeah, and it would be the same thing for the third one So it's it's in in a way it was just kind of I would be fun to keep making these and so yeah It's really cool. Three of us are happy to send our availabilities. I'm holding you to this Sean's wearing not my favorite wig. He's got five or six other ones You should probably send you pictures of what rebel Got a rebel lion Well, we're thrilled that you joined us and yes, really really happy that you're you continue to do so well

So we can keep seeing your your work and I keep it coming, please I feel so uncomfortable that you guys have thrown praise to me. I haven't gone to gush at you guys about all the stuff I love In balance in the force right now This was this was really really kind of you guys to help me on Thanks, Ryan. Thank you so much. Yeah, you're such a talented man. Keep doing it. Keep going. Thank you, buddy Thank you. Say hi to Karina. Yeah, nice to you on when she's writing reviews of your films I'll try and tell her I love you. Must remember this. Yes

Okay, oh god, bye pal. Thank you very much. Thanks a lot. Bye Talented fellow there real real freaked out when he came out of the screen No, but you don't understand like when I never going to be in one of his films I know you committed a singular Filmmaker career suicide. You don't think I know that because of my thriving film career. I just know not true He's so wait. Listen you first, but wait Did you guys see looper? Yes. I did. Yeah Clever and like really good for words and like really yeah, he's a major

Filmmaker, I know yeah, I just but I and I remember like seeing it Oh my god, and we and we almost got like a meeting with them those is years and years ago We got to make a folder of Sean's favorite because he'll say to people it's my favorite I know by the way, I have a friend. I have a couple friends that make fun of me because I say that on here I'm like, oh my god. It's my favorite movie. I have a library of all my favorite movies Right. Yeah, I'm my little Apple thing. I'm gonna. I'm gonna just be really fax Facts you a definition of favorite and you'll realize it. Well, I meant like like there's like odds with multiple I just can't just came over the telex. What yeah, she has list, but no, but I love brought I love him

He seems like really Kind like easygoing. Yeah, very. Yeah chill very chill good guy very chill You know, I if he ever makes another Star Wars movie, you know, and I'm comfortable standing on the sidelines and just be here's the buy here's a buy stand by the smart SmartLess is 100% organic and artisan Lee handcrafted by Bennett Barbaco, Michael Grant Terry and Rob. I'm Jeff SmartLess Our next episode will be out in a week wherever you listen to podcasts or you can listen to it right now early on Amazon music or early and add free by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple podcasts or the Wondry app