SmartLess - "Ronan Farrow"

Episode Date: December 4, 2023

Pop-out your Invisalign, it’s time for tinned sardines with Ronan Farrow, yo. Absolute truths, wheat germ, crucibles of tabloid BS, and interactions with other famous people. Pamphlets don���t count— it’s an all-new SmartLess.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, well good to see you. I glad to see your moustache is still alive. Still got the moustache. Yeah, what do you guys? You guys the spirit gum keeping that on or is it just? Yeah, what is it with people that have moustaches that they're two halves that they don't they don't like yourself. You can't grow a full moustache across the full lipids. You know who is cursed with that too? Clark Gable. Look him up. Oh boy. Welcome to Smartless.

Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. So, Will, while you've been out of town, Sean has discovered in Vizeline, and he's just popped it in his head. Why do you need a true podcast, Guy? I have to wear 20 hours a day, and I just had it in before it in before we started this be one of the hours that you don't yeah

We get four hours without it. No, it's not to keep it as much as I can but you know much better for who I just I just want to get for the listener I keep that going like crazy. No, they're actually not you're your teeth are totally fine and I think you fall into the trap of sort of vanity, health. Well, I don't know. My teeth, my teeth are going crooked. They're not. Yeah, this one is, oh, they're not. They were always crooked.

And then, why don't you just allow one little flipper, one little fang, like everyone else, has one that'solous Gio. It just be less than perfect. I got this one down there. They are, they're pretty, like, screwy. I just want, I'm just getting older and I want to get ahead of it. Uh huh.

Because they started going crazy. Fun. Hey, what about yesterday? Will, you know, Sean and I were having a meeting with Amanda at a very nice restaurant with a very respectable person you've heard of. I've heard about you. And an old snaggle tooth pops out his head gear at the table into his little dish or you have dish that he keeps in his pocket.

You can't eat with it on. Abel does the same thing. But why don't you put a bathroom and take that out and say, isn't it heavy? He's got to suck the saliva out of it before it puts it in the tray. And you know, we've got a guest. Yeah, no, I know.

I know. Look, I'm just struggling to get through every day. How do you sound? How is it, how is it, how is your, huh? I had a list. I said Dishon the other day. I said Dishon through every day. How do you sound? How is it, um, I had a list. How's your, huh? I had a list. I said to Sean the other day. I said to Sean, are you getting in to his line because you wanted a list

just in case people didn't know you were gay. What are you? What are you? What are you? Yeah. It's called the gay tray. Um, and I was just in the show.

None of them. Yeah, that's the guy. If you're looking to pull a question mark off your profile, Um, and I was joking this show. Yeah, that's the guy. If you're looking to pull a question mark off your profile, try gay trade. What question mark? Um, gay trade. Well, yeah, I had a little bit of a list before now. It's worth. I'm getting through it. I'm getting through it. OK, well, if you hit a couple of,

but I did just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have,

I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have,

I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have, I just have Okay. Okay. Gosh, that's so much better. What kind of charge you get? Just one that wasn't, it was on wheels and I'm on a Herbiv floor, so it was like sliding all over the place. Are you okay? Are you okay? You just need a sandbag.

Get a shot bag in there for you. I don't know, man. I just, all right. Are you guys, have we caught up? But really, I haven't caught up that much, but we've got it. I know, I haven't seen it. I'm just waiting and we'll,

listen, our wheels in Atlanta haven't seen it for a couple weeks I know my heart hurts you. I see Much I'm coming home really soon. When are you coming? When do you come home? I'm gonna be home Tuesday. Did you sleep yesterday? We had a I did I talked to Sean last night. I was so Racked have you ever heard me that tired before Sean? No not my own my own life. And I just got, I was about to go to Ben Tronkold. I can't believe this is that. Maybe there's some kind of an emergency

with the Invisalign and I should pick this up. And maybe, maybe he choked on it. I got stuck in. Yeah, he thought it was like one of those sort of glass noodles or something that he did from the... A chin-shin special. Yeah. And so I picked up and then he was telling me about the dinner because obviously I

couldn't be at the dinner with you guys. It was concerning stuff that we do together and I just was like, oh honey, because I'm like I literally just go, can I go? Can I go? Can I go in a row? I go, yeah, we know. Why did you even pick up? I realized I don't miss you that much. And let's get to our guest.

Guys, put all your dumb away and smarten up. Our guest today is a bright fella. And he has opened our eyes to quite a bit over the past few years. He's a graduate of Yale Law School. He's a member of the New York Bar. He has a PhD in political science from Oxford University, where he studied as a Rhodes scholar. And he served as a State Department official in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

What have you two done? What's the gym? He has spent the last decade or two doing some of the most important investigative journalism in our country, both in print and through his production company. His recent and most high profile work has revealed many interesting and shocking facts about some of the most famous power figures in our country like Elon Musk, Donald Trump, Les Moonves and of course, Harvey Weinstein. Folks, please welcome Ronan Farrow.

Whoa. Wait a minute. Ronan Farrow. That's tight enough. Ronan. That's amazing. Ronan came to the show this summer. Did he?

I'd ask her. Yeah, I did. I saw a good night Oscar. It was amazing. I mean, thank you. You can really tingle the ivories. Well, that's a, that's a, you should, you should see him play piano. Ronan, did you go backstage and compliment Sean?

Yes. No, he did. Very nice. And I, I, I, I gushed over you as I will today. It's just a huge fan. Well, you're a sophisticated fan of all three of you. Thank you, Ronin, and I love you. That's a big reason to sing it.

Even if it's not true, we appreciate it. No, it's very true. Also, by the way, the gravely baritone from you, I was like, you know, stifling, saying something, but it's so turn on when you turn on. It's a real thing to do. Yeah, no, no, no. No, I've done a good deal. I think he's talking about me!

Ronan, you've got a voiceover quality voice. Have you ever done any? Do I love hearing that? Because I like very lightly dabble in anime and video game voice acting. Oh really? Is that true? Yeah.

Just because more that I'm a nerd than anything else, you know, like I did. I think I play a character called Mitsubishi Man who has like three lines and won Miyazaki movie. Really? It's a guy who will fix your catalytic converter with no questions asked. Where are you, where are you, our conditioner? No, you are, as I said, you're a sophisticated New Yorker that frequency arts. Can you confirm for me this thing where if you go see a play and you're, and you have

a, you have a recognizable name, you are obligated to go backstage. Jason's obsessed. Well, I just, I need to know if you don't go backstage. So funny. So much. You love talking about that. Regardless of whether you know anyone in the cast, if you're, if you're somewhat known, if you don't go backstage, they know about it and they think you hated the show.

And so you kind of have to go backstage say, hi, I'm famous. You're gonna have to love the show. There so you kind of have to go back and say, hi, I'm famous, your friend. You have to love the show. There's a, there's a letter. Let him answer. I love this runner through the different episodes of this show. It's one of the bits of commentary I love with you on your

interactions with other famous people. And the ways in which they're great or not great. But it sounds like mostly you sort of you do a little theater of it's not all great, but then all the points you make are about how great it is. Yeah. Well, you should also know that he's also trying to gauge where he, because he's been famous since he was really young, so he's looking back at his life and he's like, how many times have I been a dip? A lot of I've been rude. I think that's part of it. Well the truth is, I think about

this a lot, like because I also had this crucible of tabloid bullsh** around me as a kid. And then I did work that got me even more. And yeah, so I think about it a lot. And the particular kind of work I do where it's an occupational hazard to piss people off, who then either go to jail or get fired or something, and then they have nothing but time and money to come after me. Right.

There's a real genuine mix of good and bad and the kind of- Well, I want to get into that, but quickly end this silly question of mine. Like just like, I just find it like, hey, you're famous on famous. It's like why I'm backstage. But is that true? Is that an acceptable thing in New York culture just to go back simply because you're also famous? It does seem to always happen. And I think there's a bit of a sense of obligation, right? That you almost experience. So if

you know someone in the show or like peripherally or connected to them, then it feels like a little bit of no that'science. That's the rule. Yeah. Thank you for your indulgence. Now, let's get to what you were talking about because it was deeper in my question line up here, but let's get right to it about, you know, you're incredible investigative journalism has yielded some unhappy folks on the other side, I would imagine. So how do you sort of get yourself ready

for the possible blowback? Like, I mean, all the way up to and including, do you have 24 hour a day's security? Was that something that you ever had to consider? I don't. I mean, I almost, I hesitate to say it, to create a job for people. But yeah, I've been followed around and staked out

and had to like, not be in my apartment or Jesus. Actually, in one case, the weirdest, like physical surveillance coming after me, thing was not even the getting followed around, but when I did some reporting that ultimately was at the heart of the first of those Trump indictments at the about the Hush payments during the election. The catch and involved. In all of his relationship.

Yeah, exactly. The catching and killing of stories on his behalf by the national inquirer. Yeah, right. And the inquirer, which was led by some very vindictive people. And in some ways was a sort of blackmail or blackmail adjacent business model that they had come up with.

I don't know. Like, there were people seducing me. They like they published my like sex with someone. This is like, you can imagine the dress issues forever. You know, I'm just like, you know. But they've been very good about surveillance and I put in quotes research for years and years and years. That's sort of their their model right so they they had a bunch of Yeah, and I got all these these messages from celebrities who have been brutalized by them

And endured similar things and like God. Thank you for for writing about this But but despite all of that I haven't gone to the place of Getting around the clock security. Yeah, I don't even know how I would make that work economically. And the truth is, I don't wanna overstate the case. Like I'm very conscious with the work I've done in different parts of the world.

I actually did a film with two wonderful filmmakers, Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady. That was just a frenemy, a prop out of them. I can take very little credit because they did all of everything on the creative end, but following journalists under threat through the pandemic. Yeah.

So seeing a lot of those stories of people whose lives are in jeopardy all the time, I'm very conscious of the fact that this is a much lower grade thing. I experience him in a country with good rule of law and like it's psychologically taxing, but the actual sort of getting followed around height of threats to physical safety,

I feel is something that ebbs and flows, and I've been okay without heavy security. Right, but you're talking about endangered, right? I mean, this was, yeah, about the sort of that, the encroachment on press freedoms. And do you feel like maybe this is kind of the start of that possible encroachment here by leaning on folks like you that are uncovering,

you know, necessary truths that we all need to know about. But they're trying to keep that stuff down by intimidating journalists. Is that a creeping problem in this country? Well, I certainly agree with the idea that it is a creeping problem, broadly speaking, whether I'm representative of that or not. And I think it's something we need to talk about more because it's not just journalism that's at stake.

It's a sign of encroaching fascism, right? This is not a new thing in history. It's one of the tactics that gets deployed, this characterization of the press as an enemy of the people that we saw during the Trump administration. That is, tail is old as time. That's sort of the first thing to try to separate the public from the facts and reduce accountability so that people can pursue. Don't believe what you hear.

Power, unjustly, yeah. Yeah. It feels like the first play in the playbook is to money the waters. And if you can do that, and then, and then, then you can, then people just don't know what to believe. Right. So they can't free for all. Right.

It's a free roll. So you can't, forget reading about the truth. You can't discern between the, because you can't trust any of it, right? And that's what they want. And if you can build that level of distrust, then you're winning. You don't never, it'll never win. It'll never win. And of course, the press is imperfect.

And sometimes it's own worst enemy. I mean, I've done a lot of writing about the brokenness of media institutions and the suppression of important stories and stuff. And I've experienced some of that. I occupy an odd place in this discourse because I've been on all sides of it, because it's hard for people, I think, to absorb this as a truth,

that the skepticism about the existence of journalists that aren't motivated by partisanship is very extreme right now. So when I do a story about the adversely effects of Democrat and then a story that adversely effects the Republican, it's like that each of those constituencies affected doesn't see the other piece of what I'm doing. So I'll get moments where Tucker Carlson is doing

a really flattering monologue about how I'm heroic for exposing some Democrat. I never agreed to do that show to be clear, as a matter of principle. But like it was an odd, strange bedfellows thing that the right was very into some of this reporting when it suited them. But then I do reporting that was on flattering

to a Republican and I'd get the opposite, I get all this like blowback and reputational smears and stuff. So yeah, it's a time I'm very disillusioned with in terms of the challenge. Do you see a fixed, I know it's such a general question, but do you see a fix to this issue about how people now absorb the news that they get? Obviously, it's again, a topic that's tails,

is everybody's fed what they want to read and what they want to absorb and digest. How do you break through to get the truth out to everybody all at once? Is there a person? Is there an outlet? Is there a thing? Is there a future where all of us will get

all the same facts at the same time? It's really hard. I don't think we're going to have to. Sorry, you didn't wrap it. Sean, you're starting to sound like Jason. I know. Jason always wants to.

He's always. I want answers. You've had such an offence. He's spreading. Is it there an absolute truth that we can then just refer to? Can we fix this before the end? I really like that aspect of this show. There is whether you guys want to cop to it or not.

There's an idealism in these conversations that you have. For sure. It's very nice. It's blissfully ignorant. Yeah, we're simple folks. But it's a pleasure. I didn't mean interrupt. Sorry, I just wanted to point that out.

I don't think there's an easy answer to this. I don't think we're going back to the Walter Cronkait monoculture. And I don't think we're going back to the same kind of trust institutions. There is a lot of things that feed into this. The declining trust in institutions is in all sectors.

It's particularly acute with media. But it is a general trend line. Technology obviously changes this in an irreversible way, particularly the kind of the greedy algorithms that have come to understand that extremism and misinformation sells better, generates more clicks, and experts on radicalization talk about this a lot, that the way those algorithms work is like,

if you get someone, I did all this work, unmasking people in security camera footage during the January 6th, right? Yeah. You know, in the Siege of the Capital. There was a sort of crowdsource movement. Can you not? They were just tourists running.

What did it step into? Have you ever seen the end of it? It's a horror. Have you ever seen the end of it? It's a horror. Have you ever seen the end of it? Have you ever seen the end of it? Have you ever seen the end of it? Have you ever seen the end of it? Have you ever seen the end of it? Have you ever seen the end of it? Have you ever seen the end of it? What if that was the time when the story did not see any of the footage?

There is a, they're walking through. They were touring. Anyway. Yeah, that's it. That's what my story said, actually, like these lovely tourists. Sure. The crowd was scrubbing through these videos framed by frame, like using facial recognition and trying all sorts of ways to find these people.

And I was able to identify a few collaborating with those people who were doing that crowdsource movement at a time when they were on the run and had not surrendered themselves to the FBI, but there were wanted posters and stuff. And I highlight that context partly because you wouldn't think they would be confessional at a moment like that, but they all were.

And the through line, obviously each case was different, was definitely this phenomenon we're talking about. It's the Pennsylvania mom who has eight kids and she gets on Facebook and it's showing her extremist stuff and they happen to grab someone like that who's already mad at mask mandates and then they just get fed more and more content

to escalating it. She's like, I have all of them, they got her. Yeah, and it's the, I don't mean to put soul blame on that, but it's a definite factor, and it goes to the point that you're making, that everyone is sort of in their own bubble,

consuming things that they agree with, and it encourages them to dig in more deeply, rather than do the thing we should all be doing, obviously, which is to be open-minded to the facts wherever they may lead. Yeah. We'll be right back. Thank you to Helix for supporting Smartless.

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Happy holidays, y'all. Smartless is sponsored by BetterHelp. Now, here in my family, we are, we love giving gifts, but sometimes, you know, we'll sort of like, you know, give each other helpful suggestions or wanna be surprised, certain members of the family like to be surprised, other members don't, it all, everyone's got their own different thing,

but here's the thing, you get to decide how you give to yourself, right? And the holidays are a great time to do that. So whether it's by starting therapy, going easier on yourself during tough moments or treating yourself to a day of complete rest, whatever it is, remember to give yourself some love this holiday season, okay? Like, for instance, therapy is something that I've given to myself over the years. My goodness, I could always take more and more and more every time I gift myself that I feel like I've unwrapped a package of happiness and clarity, right? Yes, you get

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you've managed to pack inside your head there. Now,, was there a lot of, did you eat a lot of wheat germ as a kid? Was there like carrots or- That was diet. I just thought- I don't know. If you feed your kid enough wheat germ, they will get a Pulitzer Grat. That's what I've heard. Okay, confirmed.

It's in the box. Yeah, yeah. Wait, what do you need to become a Rhodes scholar? Because I want to- No, that's wheat germ German character at some thinking. Um, I was tempted by the way when I get some variation on this question to say something truly insane. Like, you know, I just eat the Joe Rogan thing like Joe is right.

I eat six tens of sardines every time. Is that what he said? Cold plunge. And then you cold, you cold your plunge. Yeah, that's it. Cold plunge. You really swear by Sardines? Yeah, yeah, there was a little news item before recently where he apparently thought he

was getting poisoned because he was like getting getting too much mercury from the Sardines. Sure. I think about Sardines and I get bloated. No, they're, oh no, they're very good and they are very healthy and modern. There's a lot of sodium guys. Well, they're not predator fish. There's, there's, there's, there's, the full of're full of salt in my face. That's always safer in terms of the contempt. Now I I want to do what you're doing. I appreciate you. No, I can't

do this in any of you. Doesn't know. Um, quiet. Well, um, so you skipped a few grades. Quite you skipped a few grades in school. You entered college at a very young age. I want to know how know how that sort of educational experience, yeah, a few grades. What was it? It was seven. It was seven grades. I did a two key house or thing.

No, you did not. No, no, no, no. Why am I so socially maladjusted, guys? No, no, no, there's only 12 grades before college. You skipped seven of those? I skipped seven of them. Yeah, I went to college at 11. Are you serious?

Hold that shit. Wait a second. Wait, Ronan, you went to Yale at 11? No, I went to Bard for undergrad at 11. I got into Yale at 15, 16. I actually took a little time then to do, did some unicef work. Cause it was like a youth spokesperson

and a couple of African people. I mean, I'm really proud of my children, but I live at a less now. Hey, hey, Roman, ask these guys what the last book they read was. Yeah. Oh, are we avid readers here or no? Well, this is a smart group, joke, so.

I enjoyed Tom Sawyer a lot. Does that count? Let's go and go back. Up a very thin. What about you? What the last book I read? The last book. Pamplets don't count.

The Giving Tree. I don't know. So this guy's writing books. Ronan, when was the, when was your last book that you wrote? Hello, we got a catch and kill 2019. I think I have the next one that's going to be a book. So I'm, I'm doing have the next one that's gonna be a book, though. I'm doing this sort of...

Are we making news? I know. We like to make news on this. No, I can't ever get into specifics on like investigative topics that haven't hatched yet, because of course. I always, further to the point of like people can be skeptical or not,

but I am genuinely led by what's the biggest but also most interesting and hopefully humanistic story, like how can I fair it out the intricacies of the characters involved and be compassionate in the portrayal of even the bad people and so forth. Sure. And it's not about politics and part of that being led by the facts and making sure that those are the kinds of stories that I do and the way that I do them is I have to be willing to like throw them in the trash if they don't pan out.

I've done six months of work on a really giant political story that I didn't think was wrong, factually, but I felt like it wasn't the misconduct being alleged, it wasn't serious enough, and the way the facts came together wasn't bullet proof. We're fine with hearsay, if you wanna just let us know, just the rumors. Yeah, yeah, I'll just give you the guts. enough and the way the facts came together wasn't bullet proof. We're fine with your safe. You want to just let us know just the rumors.

Yeah, yeah, I'll just give you the guts. I'll give you the guts. So I can't talk about specifics, but yeah, I'm doing this like trans media approach in a lot of cases where I'll do a print story for the New Yorker and then either during or after some combination do it as a podcast or NHBO series, my documentary business is at HBO, which has been interesting

because I think, you know, I grew up with like a love of film and I've got my start as a TV news anchor and I do love being able to tell the stories in different ways. But what is it, one of my questions I think Sean was saying, he was going to ask you this too, how do you pick? And I'm sure you've answered this a million times, I apologize, but what guides your picking of stuff to investigate? It's a matrix of different factors. I think you want to assess, will it potentially do some good in the world?

Not in an activist way, where it's not an op-ed when I'm doing this particular kind of relatively clinical investigative work, but you do want to find some social relevance in it. Yeah, you want to pick the stories where something potentially could change, not necessarily because you're proposing a specific change, but because those are the exciting, meaningful stories a lot of the time that cause people to sit up and take notice. And then you are looking at not just the strengths of the facts and constantly assessing as the

facts come in, okay, is this like a slam dunk story on the journalistic side, but also, especially as you move between those different formats, is it a narrative arc that people can relate to and understand emotionally? Are there people involved that are rich, complicated characters that people will potentially connect to? Talk to us about the thing that really drew you to public service in government and how that changed or didn't change, meaning is it the same thing that drew you into journalism? Was it a sense of altruism that then transferred into something different or did you find the same draw on both? Well, it's like probably for most of us

to some extent or other, there's a mix of altruism and belief in public service and caring about other people, and narcissism and ego and wanting to be successful and that led to most of these decisions you're asking about. I was very fortunate to grow up with my mom, who is a big fan of yours Jason, by the way. I was a big fan of hers. I'm so lucky to have worked with her.

I really like you. Yeah, I like her a lot. I hope you guys get to work together again. I'm trying to encourage her to work with her. This was actually a film for the Weinstein company called The X with Zach Braff and Amanda Pete and Charles Groden and Mia. Oh yeah. I played an asshole in a wheelchair. Wait, wasn't Amy in that? What's that?

Yeah, I think Amy was in the M.I. In armises. What was it called? It was called The X. It was actually, if I recall, from the deepest recesses of my mind, it was a script at the time titled Fast Track, and it was like a workplace comedy.

And then Harvey Weinstein acquired it and did a very Harvey Weinstein thing, which did reshoots and recut it and changed the premise that it was then called the X, and it was a relationship comedy. I'm not sure where the title change came from, but I do remember very clearly the whole reshoot scenario where the title changed, but I do remember very clearly the whole reshoot

scenario where I played an asshole in a wheelchair going after Zach Braff's girlfriend, Amanda Pete, and his Zach Braff's character's theory was that I was faking it in the wheelchair. That he's making grounds on my lady because my lady feels bad for him. And he's not even injured. He's faking it in the wheelchair. And the truth is that I really was somebody that couldn't walk. And then they tested the movie and my character

was testing a little bit too likable. Because you know, he was an asshole in the wheelchair. He's fun to, fun to hate. I thought you were gonna say, yeah, you know, because you know, I'm too likable because you know he was an asshole in wheelchairs funded funded fund a hate. I thought you were gonna say yeah you know because you know I'm so like well. And so they figured well now that's making Zach Raff's character seem very unlikeable because he's the lead and he's trying to you know expose me anyway. So their big idea was to well let's make it so that he really is faking it to adjust the and so that was going to be the reshoot and was the reshoot.

There was a big scene we had a reshoot where I stand up. And I was like, well, wait a second. I don't know if I'd play the character if I knew he was faking it. And I had a phone call with Harvey Weinstein, where I said, oh, I said, what's the, what are the screen actors guild rules? Where you, can you really just make me reshoot a scene

that changes the character completely and now I'm a guy who's faking it and I he's like, yep, you're doing it. I was like, okay, Doc, we shot like 30 pages of the pages. Yeah, she was a Jesse Parrots director. The great Jesse Parrots. Wow. Yeah. Anyway,ots directed it. The great Jesse Parrots. Wow. Yeah. Anyway, Mia was awesome.

Well, we're on the digression. Yeah, I have been trying to encourage my mom to be more game to work. I think there was a period of time where she just, she had so many bad industry experiences. It really came after her. There was Woody Allen bullshit. And she's sort of, she's such an incredible actress.

And because of those experiences, because she started as a kid basically, and she was on a beaten place as a teenager, she doesn't fully own her talent in the way that I hope she can. Every time she does something, people are so bold over. She keeps people so much. So much. Yeah.

So yeah, so I'm kind of just trying to encourage her to own that. Yeah, well, it's kind of it's kind of absurd that you're talking about Mia Farrow. Yeah. Mom, I was like, I wish you wanted to get one of the great actresses. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You should really get out there and realize how good she is. Because, you know, to someone from me who didn't grow up close to that sort of thing, I think I think, of course.

Pretty cool. And you did grow up so close to that, which must have, it's interesting that you, I mean, that you just went kind of 180 degrees away from that in a lot of ways, right? I mean, that you just went into academia. Well, I didn't, I didn't. I did in the practical sense of the choices that I was making, but actually the philosophical underpinning very much comes from her.

She is like altruistic, I think at times to a fault. It's genuine too. It's not performative. She really is like obsessed with helping people and has probably made questionable decisions at time because of it. I mean, she adopted all of these kids with special needs, which was this beautiful, wonderful thing,

but also a source of much, much chaos in my childhood. I was just gonna say. Yeah, so it's complicated. Did she ever pull over and try to pick up a hitchhiker? I think she felt like they needed a ride and it was just a real bad decision. She was very much that kind of person. And I think it's taken a lot of being brutalized

by the world to disobey her of that. Mother, do not slow down the car. What's happening? But from a perspective, you can talk about it as much or we can cut it or whatever. But just from a perspective of me growing up with a single mom and a large family, not nearly as large as yours.

What was that like, because I always say, we kind of all had to figure out, even though we had an amazing mom, like your mom, my mom was incredible too, and ran a food bank for the poor and the homeless, and some of the food we got was from the food bank because we were in that situation too. But so I put my mom in a pedestal's too.

At the same time, we had a kind of parent ourselves And did you growing up in such a large family feel that sense because there's so many kids? You know, you'd have to ask my different siblings about their experience of that My perception was always is one of the amazing things about her. She was Incredibly attentive like she knit every single one of us, a Christmas stalking with our name on it and like a relevant graphic. As holidays were real rituals.

So she even in the midst of a lot of chaos and painful stuff and, you know, me getting dragged in and out of courtrooms and rammed through crowds of paparazzi and helicopters overhead, you know overhead to get to school. There was a lot of, and also loss. So I had a lot of immediate family members die over the course of my childhood.

So there was a lot there that didn't work, but one of the things that did work is what you're asking about. Like she's an incredibly attentive mom. Yeah, same. Almost in a superhuman way. And all of that redounded to me, really caring in my world view about compassion

and altruism. And, and, yeah. Look, I think there are pros and cons to this. The moral framework I was given was like, we're not really here, she would deny this by the way, but my interpretation of it anyways, that we're, I was taught not to care about personal happiness,

that the first goal was your here with privilege and responsibilities, and you must work to improve the lives of others. And that is the source of true happiness. But that's the very long-winded answer to your question that I wanted to do things that helped others. How big is your therapist's yacht? Because...

Yeah, that's a lot of stuff. Here's the craziest thing. Well, I only did therapy for the first time, other than like, cord-appointed expert stuff in my childhood, which is probably why I then didn't leap to therapy after. You would make a therapist so happy, though, because your ability to articulate your feelings and you are so beautifully vulnerable and human and I bet you could have no credible conversations with a therapist.

I mean, I've loved mine. Well, I have found it late in life. Like during the pandemic, I was actually, it did take hitting a bit of psychological rock bottom. I had been driving so hard with the philosophy that we've been talking about. Like, I've just got a give and give and give. And to the point I made earlier about

it being a cocktail of selfish and giving instincts. Like, I also, I had been so scrutinized from such an early age and with so much expectation, I wanted to do things that were 180 from my family. I wanted to be taken seriously. My early professional experiences where I'd be talking about an infrastructure project

in Pakistan and they'd like, want to ask me about my family and stuff, just made me very, very committed to being so, so serious and such an overachiever that I could get out of that. And it took becoming so, so kind of souped up and like prominent in my own right for my work. I had to be involved in these like major kind of culture shifting moments to get out of that.

And then finally I could do it. I could go on a book tour and never get asked about my family. I did it. Yeah. It had downsides though. I think I alienated myself from people by over credentialing.

Have you ever talked to Anderson Cooper about it? We talked a little bit about, you know, he would, he, he's gay. You must know him. He's gay. Yeah, that's what I guess. Well, we do all, I mean, I, you know, I see him and Sean at the gay, you know, I knew it. I fucking, I fucking hang on. Let me write this down.

Let me write this down. No, but I was going to say that I remember he had a very sort of similar answer when he would say that that was the thing that was always the sort of the flag, the red flag when he was on a date. If how soon somebody asked about his mom and of course, hilariously, he talked about how Andy go and he asked him in like 10 seconds. But so they became good friends. But but yeah, I mean, that's a difficult thing, right? I also have, well, that's good. You also have a very, very famous friend of ours, very close that you would know. And this person comes from an extreme...

I don't know, do you know Milton Burrell? Ha ha ha ha. This person comes from an extremely famous family that everybody knows. And this person to your point, Ronan, is what's shunned. All questions didn't want to talk about her family. Her identity is not that.

I do not, you know, I am this person over here. I've created this world for myself. And in doing so through many, many, many, many years of evolution and growth, she was like, she learned the balance of embracing both, right? And bringing that in and not being not ashamed at all. It's just, it's your own personal identity and figuring out the path that's in the middle somewhere.

I've had that journey myself. I remember vividly, so there's fame, and then there's this particular subgenre of fame that's particularly awful and enduring in a troublesome way of fame connected to generationally defining sex scandal. And there's just a kind of prerence and shock element that 30 years later does not go away. And I remember vividly running into Chelsea Clinton at some event. And this was before I had done a lot professionally.

I think it was right as I was getting out of it. I just recently met her. What a great woman. She's so, so, I think it was right out. So I was getting out of it. I just recently met her. What a great woman. She's so, so, I'm really interested in it. Well, she's probably one of the few people who has that very, very specific, awful shadow over her, from childhood. And worse than me, right?

Because she was in the White House dealing with it all the, but similar in some ways. And I remember this is, prior to me having done any work in the world, and people really only knew me through that family stuff. And someone came up at this event and was like introducing me or saying hello to me in a way that foregrounded the family stuff, like, oh, you know, here's this is a nebo baby, or whatever.

And she was so forceful, I don't know if she would even recall this, but she was clearly, she had the same chip on her shoulder that I had was my reading of it which may or may not be fair to her, but she was like, he's his own person, like he's done his own things. I'm gonna like Chelsea, are you talking about you? And I do think like different people respond to that in different ways, but for me I've learned the peril of that. First of all, because if you refuse to talk about it, people are just much more curious. Second of all, I think the wanting to dissociate yourself from it

is very fair and understandable, but ultimately, kind of finding peace in yourself does require reconciling all of those parts of you and all of those parts of your past. Yes. And drawing strength from it. Yes, and you've got to get a lot of that managed before you start

what becomes your new immediate family. Yeah. And now, a word from a sponsor. Thank you to Zippercrooter for their support. Now, you know, holidays are here. There, I've got a list of people to get stuff for. Some of them are sort of, they're tough to buy for. You know, they're very specific.

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you're, you know, 18, 20, whatever it is. You move out and then you see them less. And then eventually you meet the person that becomes your everyday person, your spouse. And then you meet your kids, you know, when they're born. And you see the people you used to spend every day with, maybe once or twice, three, four times a year, at holidays and stuff, you know your friend. So how are you now transitioning into that place

of family, the new meaning of family for you, for all of us is we become adult children. Yeah. Do you idealize the notion of family? What talked to us about your personal life, to the extent you're comfortable, about you said you want to have kids and all that stuff? Where is all that stuff set with you right now? Well, this goes back to the joke about therapy. I did actually, there was this moment in the pandemic where the work slowed down because the world was slowing down, but the attacks were still coming.

And it was like every day or at all hours getting these crazy shakedown attempts, like, going back to the inquirer example, like crazy letters from the inquirer having been pertained, like, idealog, right wing, crazy lawyers who might have actually brought a casing. We're going to see your pants off for defamation if you don't pass. Some crazy, it's like a joke. I'm at like $50 million overnight. And all of these like reputational smears and people I'd pissed off trafficking dossiers and once in a while they'd make their way into the mainstream press. And it's interesting, I've stumbled into all of this serious, pure-reviewed, psych literature

about how attacks that threaten your core sense of identity and place in society are actually at times more ready instigators of PTSD symptoms than even threats of physical harm, that those are the ones that damage people the most. It was helpful for me to understand that because for a long time, I kind of kicked myself and beat myself up over it. I've been in war zones, I've been in dangerous situations, I've been followed around, but the shit I care about

is like, what is page six saying? Right, right. But it was really hard for me. And I finally did prompt me to start working on myself. And I did some, this goes to your question of, like, how do I build my adult identity and my path towards hopefully being a good partner and maybe eventually a good parent?

I started putting in the work. And I did a couple of years of cognitive behavioral therapy and then found a great, more traditional analyst. I think those tools can work for some people, not work for some people. There's good practitioners, bad practitioners, but I did. I found someone great in the end and that was genuinely helpful for me. And I think part of allowing myself to work on that was not stepping away from but tempering the philosophy of like any minute I don't spend helping someone else,

I am morally failing. Yeah. That letting myself work for myself occasionally. And it was extra hard for me to do that as someone who had always been in the press and people having these expectations. Yes, but the example that you lived with called your mother is, you know, we always, as we get to adulthood, we go, we rebel in different ways. And some of those are like, I see what my mom did in my, I'm speaking for myself.

I see what she did. I see what she did to an extreme. And again, going back to the balance thing, which is the hardest for any human to do, is to balance, you know, the good from the bad and where do I lie in between. And as much as you celebrate your mom and I celebrate my mom, there are extremes, you know, and it's okay to recognize that and go,

oh, where's me in all of this? Yeah, and you find your version of their advice and their guide. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, exactly that. And like, we aspire to do it better than our parents did it. Yeah. And we're gonna fuck it up inevitably in new and exciting ways.

And, you know, we have to just be kind both to the parents. Like, I think part of this path is you're not idealizing your parents, but you are greeting their complications with kindness and understanding. And then part of it is also being kind to ourselves, right, as we make those things. Well, you have to let yourself off the hook

and you also can't let past them. You can't use, I think that one of the traps that I know that I have fallen into in the past and that I used to do more was to use those past experiences and to make my self feel shitty about it or to beat myself up about it. And believe me, if making, if beating yourself up about it worked, I'd be cured.

It doesn't work. Do you know what I mean? It just doesn't. I know exactly what you mean. I mean, I really have to work on this in an ongoing way because I have the most punishing interior voice. Just like anything I do that is not perfect, I am so cruel to myself. And I'm also, I'm like a hyper sensitized person to other people,

and there's different bodies of literature that categorize that in different ways, but I'm like anxiously attached. I'm a super sensitive person. So, there's actually, there's these studies where people who exhibit those traits, they show them like videos of a face slowly morphing from one expression to another. And they actually, they detect the change earlier than other people,

but they also have an inclination to draw conclusions from that prematurely. I do, I am, I completely relate to that. I completely relate to that. I completely identify with that. And I call it thin slicing. And I have, and I, I've long felt like I have an ability to thin slice and sometimes it to my own detriment. By the way, I also have a very punishing inner voice.

And you're lucky because mine sounds like this. Mine is fucking right here. Mine's like you. Where am I so turned on? I do. You're cruel internal voice. I tell you so you. I suspect most performers.

And I'm not a performer per se, but I do like make a living on TV. There's a performative aspect or a communicative aspect. I think a lot of those people are probably hyper sensitized in that way. And there's a nexus of the cruel interior voice and the public scrutiny and the hypersensitivity to the public scrutiny. Like, I care so much what other people think.

I care so much about the random Twitter, we cruel tweet, and there's so much cruelty. I think there gets a bad rap though. You know, I think that it's such a healthy thing to be, I think, aware of, as opposed to concerned with. It's just semantics. Well, how you're coming across, I mean, it's certainly what the three of us do for a living with acting, that's our job, we're professional liars in the way

in which we come across, right? We're trying to trick people. And so in that comes an inherent ability or need were professional liars in the way in which we come across, right? We're trying to trick people. And so in that comes an inherent ability or need to know how you're coming across and to be concerned with whether that's an accurate perception. Well, first of all, the notion that people, when people say, and I've had it from people I grew up with, who have nothing to do with entertainment, and they're like, you know, they're all Canadians. So they all sound like this.

Well, you guys care what you look like. Or you think you're, and I'm like, yeah, everybody does motherfucker. And nice try. And if you have them there, you can. And if everybody get it too, they want to be any story selling, selling fashion. And they want to be an in makeup for sale. And they want to be anything. So, A, go fuck yourself.

And B, yeah, that's how I, you you know why because that's how I make my living And I get and we now live in a world where I get to hear everybody's opinion in real time for everywhere on the planet Yeah, and it makes it keeps you nicer if you're concerned or are aware aware of what people think about you I think you know to the extent you're able to handle it, then take it on because it keeps you kind, and it keeps you aware of other people. What is it that you do with that? Well, but this is Jason to end her up for a moment. What you just expressed, what you have taken away

from being in a firestorm of public opinion about yourself, it is not necessarily the norm, and I've seen all kinds of people who wind up very distorted by it, and it can lead to kind of more ego, but I'm fascinated by the fact that actually to what I can observe everyone in this group has taken from that experience

all of these good, beautiful, caring things. Like how do you, how do you do that? I mean, I hope that I'm achieving that myself, but I'm interested in how they're stuff. Why do you, you seem self-aware. I mean, I think it's about being, first of all, it's about who you surround yourself with. Well, and also considering the sources,

like consider this sort, like anytime somebody, right, a horrible thing about me, there's been tons of stuff in my whole life. Yeah. It's like you go, at some point, you know, when you're much younger, I was like, oh my God, I'd cry and crawl in a corner. And I'm like, oh, that person is miserable, not me.

When you were talking about your scary voice inside, the chastises you, what is the thing that wakes that monster up the most? What do you do? What do you do that most disappoints you? What's your dumbest shit? You're such a smart, insightful guy. I can't imagine you doing something that would really warrant a real real talking to.

It's a good point. Yeah, it is almost always not rational. And I've been shielded both by my, I think, generally good, strong moral code and instincts, and also surrounding myself with other people who have those qualities. I've had points in my career very prominently where I've been with very, like, Craven, corporate, power-hungry people who, when the rubber meets the road and there's a tough story unfolding, they're awful, they're cowardly, and it's so disillusioning and disappointing. But I have over time been able to refine

the chosen family professionally, not just personally, to include more people who are big-minded, big-hearted, have good values and have good systems for enforcing those values. So the New Yorker is this magical esoteric place where all of these intellectuals with tons of virtue, not that they get it perfectly right all the time, of course, it's human beings, but I have been so impressed, even in cases where there's a disagreement about a story and I'm the reporter saying, like, I've worked on this for months, I want to get it out. Here are all the arguments by. The counterarguments are always rooted in like good journalistic ethics.

So I've been protected by that from the real mistake. There haven't been inaccuracies in the story even when the stories when they're under attack. It's withstood all of that. I have gradually come to trust myself more and be less punishing because I've seen over time that I do make good decisions. And I think I am increasingly trusting of the idea that I can pull off both. I can scrutinize my decisions and learn each time to be better without being punished. But you don't have one reoccurring blind spot.

Like you're like, it's not always an angry driver and you're mad at yourself for honking it ever. Jason, Jason, what are the, sorry, just quickly, I'm gonna ask you, what are the things that you beat yourself up about it? And let me guess the first five. Yeah, I'm curious about this. First five, the first five you should.

Yeah, I guess that, let me rephrase how that like this time. I said, Jason, here is my list. Yeah, I guess that let me rephrase Jason Here is my list of my question like you talked to me about Sizing with with all you know you're just amazing your your brain is gorgeous and beautiful Your gorgeous and beautiful Everything your gorgeous and beautiful. Yeah, as is your skin, your hair, everything. I can lip-synamin' everything.

I know, it's kind of incredible. What the what? All that just spend more time with this group. Yeah, it's true. I just got a call for me, Joe, brother. Yeah. Oh, wait, I have a question. By the way, and aside on that, I've had work situations

where I guess ironically, given some of the work I've done on sexual harassment the way, and aside on that, I've had work situations where I guess ironically, given some of the work I've done on sexual harassment and stuff, where I'm getting that treatment, like I'm getting objectified, and I'm just not a self-actualized enough person to not get a little, like I'm actually like, you know what, I'm cool with this.

I'm telling you more. Like I've gotten so much more validation over the years for just the intellectual stuff. Being a piece of meat is great when it happens. When you get into litigation, let the record show Sean started it. No, to that point, run with the intellectual stuff and all that fuels the fire in your belly and you continue to do all that stimulates that gorgeous brain of yours. What beyond of that excellent work in your life

excites you. What outside of all this? When are you silly? What do you let it go? All that kind of stuff. Are you a video gamer? Like, what do you do? I am, yeah.

So it actually took me a lot of time to understand that that stuff, I mean, this goes back to the broad philosophical conversation, right? That a life that's just about the work. I mean, I missed every major friend's wedding because I was like off interviewing a warlord. That's an actual thing that happened, but I'm so sorry to my friend Jen, who's waiting. I was supposed to sing out and then I miss completely to go interview General Dostum in Afghanistan. Like I made that choice every time.

And now I am making the choice to do the fun stuff, to just find joy and yet keep the work going. And I have the work being formed by that. I think if you're kinder to yourself, you can be kinder to others. So yeah, I love being social. I mean, I like going deep with small groups and one on one. But I also love like, I love video games. I love all nerd culture. I

love sci-fi. I do too. I love. Oh boy. Here come Sean and Scott. Eat all the time. Are you, are you a gamer? No, not a gamer huge sci-fi. Yeah, Sean and Scotty they have Star Trek night. Yeah, it's Star Wars You would yeah, I'm more I'm more of a Star Wars guy and I really admire the the world view of Star Trek kind of more That it's more about intellectual curiosity, but I haven't taken the time to dig deep. Yeah, hey Let me I haven't seen a lot of it, but let me guess the good guys wouldn't to dig deep. Yeah. Hey, let me, I haven't seen a lot of it, but let me guess the good guys wouldn't. I mean, says the guy with the gravelly voice in the mustache. I want to start with all the, all the old chat and our stuff. I want to like really go back and, and I, I'm on that at some point. Well, we are, we're 16 minutes over here. I apologize, but I could,

I could talk to you for a whole day. It's such a great conversation. And I really am sincerely, such a fan of all of yours. I mean, Jason, I remember watching the pilot of Ozark, or I guess it was a series or so, I'm using the term pilot reflexively, the first episode that you directed and my ex turning to me when your name came up

and the credits and being like, is Jason Bateman one of our great living directors? Is he like one of the best working TV directors? Yes, I can ask. So my name came up and he said, I think he might be. That is, that is. I had to discover that over time,

the time that you were that too. And even the- It took a village, thank you. They first uploaded the outside. Or like every time I see you directing something and like, how are you so good at that? Yeah, really kind. Well, yeah, something sinks in after a while and surround yourself with good folks and

there you get it. Yeah. Well, here's to more of that for all of you. And thank you for being so kind in this conversation. Oh, it was so easy. Oh, thank you for joining us. Yeah. So great talking to you in meeting you.

Ronan, thank you. We appreciate you so much for being here. And I hope you pal. Thanks. I hope I get to see on the streets of New York again. Yeah, I hope I get to see you love to meet you in person. Yeah, I'd love that too. All right. Bye, guys.

All right. Enjoy your day. You too. Bye. Thanks, Ronan. Well, another boring prick that just is no charm and doesn't know how to talk what we got to start book and better guests could it get talking to run in Pharaoh yeah just kept talking to that I mean real sweet on that fella handsome it tastes smart a man doesn't a lot of trouble

okay she's in a lot of trouble why it's alright why I just found myself really enjoying his company? Okay. Uh-oh. Uh-oh. No, it's that say, uh, that's, that's a, that's a real interesting fella right there. Yeah, I agree. Um, I cannot believe the guy went to college at 11. When you said, are you kidding? And I, I almost said like, what's he fucking kidding shot with?

Wait, he's not kidding. Not kidding. 11. I know. I know. 11 years old and barred 15 at Yale. I mean, incredible. He's not getting. Not kidding. 11. I know. 11 years old. He's getting barred 15 at Yale. I mean, incredible. He's had Lord. You imagine. Hey, guys, anybody going to the, you know, front party like 15 years old? Yeah. Well, good for him. And, uh,

Sean, I didn't know you did impressions. That was, yeah, that's fantastic. Hey, guys, I'm going to the front party. Hey, what's the big idea? I'm going to bust this joint out. You said, you guys are about 30s filled. I want to have a sandwich. Now, Willie, you're there. You're there in Atlanta. I see you're in. Yeah. And be sure to hang out of your sales receipt. What do you got the rest of the day out there, Willie? Well, we got another record later on. We do. I got some hockey later on after I've already been to the gym.

Really sorry about the King's waxing your dumb ass maple leaves the other day. It's leaves you fucking dick. What did I say? I say leaves the leaves. It's plural. He was doing plural. All the players are the leaves. Yeah, plural. He was doing plural. All the players are the leaves. Yeah, exactly.

That is the plural, okay? And it was a bit of a battalion in the Canadian Army, World War I, Maple Leaf Battalion. So if you have a consmite named in the Maple Leafs. So if you had a bunch of Maple Leafs exiting the team bus, how would you write that? LEA-F apostrophe S? No. Or no, you wouldn't use the apostrophe. You just have the S.

Yeah. Would it be Leaves or would it be V or F? Leaves. Leaves. With what letters? Yes. No, with an F for a V. F-F.

Huh. I don't know if that's correct. It says it on the jersey. I think they spelled it wrong. Well, that's because it's plural. If you had like three. and it's a proper name, it's a proper name. It's the, they created it, they created a name.

Yeah. But if you had like three of something you'd call it try, and if you had two of something, you would call it, bye, bye. Also, if you went both ways. Smart. Smart. Smart.

Smart. Also, if you went both ways. Smiles. Smiles. Smiles. Smiles. Smiles. Smiles. Flies. Smiles. Smiles is 100% organic and artistically handcrafted by Rob Armjurff, Bennett Barbaco, and Michael Grandtary. Smiles. Flies. Bennett Barbaco and Michael Granterry.

Smart loss. in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. Hi, it's me, the Grand Poova of Bahambad, the OG Green Grump, the Grinch. From Wondery! Tis the Grinch holiday talk show is a pathetic attempt by the people of O'Vill to use my situation as a teachable moment. So join me, the Grinch, along with Cindy Lohu. Hello, everyone. And of course course my dog Max every week for

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