SmartLess - "Steven Soderbergh"

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

A shot, a line, a transition, an idea, a font, anything. It’s Bolivian spirit dealer and ‘the Taylor Swift of Cinema,’ a.k.a. Steven Soderbergh… on an all-new SmartLess.This episode was recorded on May 30th, 2023.Please support us by supporting our sponsors.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Okay guys, we're gonna admit what our favorite pasta dishes on three ready. One, two, three. You'll see me off right now. Welcome to Smart List. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.

Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart.

Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. Smart. You seem so stressed out. Why are you so stressed out, Jay? I'm not. I'm really, I don't know why I'm tired today. No one wants to hear about it, though. This is probably not great. Why are you afraid of the golf start? It's just too much golf. You're right. Nobody does want to hear that. I just asked you if you were, why you were tired. I did have an early, an early round. I shot 77 yesterday. Well, but I just asked you if you were why you were tired. I did have an early an early round

I shot 77 yesterday. Well, I know you don't care and you don't want to hear about it But I'm very proud of it. I'm happy for you because you have the last couple weeks And I can say this now that you've shot you had a good round yesterday. You've had It's been unlike you and you've had some some mediocre rounds and I know you've been upset and you've had a few And you've had some some mediocre rounds and I know you've been upset and you've had a few grumpy or the usual days. Thank you for seeing me and hearing me. So I see you. Here's what the number 77 engulf means to me. That sounds really high. Well, um, the the the the level par normal is 70 or 72. Yeah. Okay. So that's it. Did every night watching Lord of the Rings. Okay. Moving on. I'll tell you this. Speaking of Lord of the Rings, are you guys being held hostage somewhere?

What's going on? I've never seen any of them, but I'll bet. Oh my God. They're so very good. Speaking of Lord of the Rings, I, uh, Amanda and I have our anniversary coming up. I can say this because she won't, well, no, she isn't listening to these. I have it in my calendar. And you're anniversary. Amanda does not listen. She does not listen. So we have it coming up in a month or so

and I thought about getting her a ring, this ring from this jeweler that she likes. How many years? I haven't bought her any jewelry in a long, long time and so this is, and I usually don't do it unless it's a pre-approved by her because anytime I try to, like, go rogue, I get slammed. Jay, I got to try to do it. Dude, enough with all the hot romance. It sounds so incredible. So, uh, so, I have somebody if you want somebody. No, no, I got that. He's got that person who's approved by a man. You might know who he is. This is a pre-approved person.

I know the person. But we share a calendar. We share a calendar, Amanda and I. And so I had to put a reminder of my calendar to go to this jeweler today. And because I'm going to get her a ring, I put as the prompt of the calendar as just Lord. Lord of the rings for Lord of the rings.

Now our assistant shares a calendar to with us. And I'm waiting for her to say, where have you found to worship on Tuesday? Why are you worshiping on Tuesday? But I couldn't come up with a better prompt in the calendar. That's my Lord of the rings. Is that what Lord meant? Is Lord of the Ring? Yeah, Lord of the Ring. So I would remember, oh, go get that ring today. Right. And did you get it? I don't know.

Not yet. It's after this. I gotta be honest. Not a great story. It's a long story, but I will say this. That's my specialty, bro. That it begs a lot of questions from the other two people with whom you share a calendar, which I think is a mistake.

A, B, I don't have a good secret. I don't have a good secret, so you have an assistant. And if a man has a question about your calendar, you can say, hey, can you, how's he look like on this day? Yeah. B. But C, by putting Lord, it's begging someone to go away. So you say what's going on?

What's going on? And what you should have done is done something like golf lesson. Yeah, or some stupid fucking thing like that. But no, you didn't do that. I guess I was so excited that I have like, what did you get? What did you get? Or what kind of ring?

Nothing yet. But I'm gonna go pick it up. Oh, you're gonna go pick it up. Yeah, it's someone of these vintage goddamn things that you can't do. I know the lady. How many years, Jay? Yeah. 20 plus. Wow. So I better get the, Goddamn things that I know the lady. How many years Jay? Yeah

20 plus wow But I better get the better five find out before we hit 25 because 25 is silver Get like the real rank I nailed down the day the number of the actual years Yeah, I'm sorry. Do you know the case that comes up? I think I heard I think I heard our guest is best lap Okay, he has been laughing. Okay, this has been laughing. And how foolish we are. I know, we're wasting his time. I know, we really are.

You know what, I'm stalling because I'm really nervous, actually. I think that's why I'm doing today. Yeah. Yeah, it's so much better when it's not my guest because then I can just hit fucking. You should be back. And I just roll in completely unprepared and I just get to respond like the thing bad I am just hit fucking, and I just roll in completely unprepared,

and I just get to respond like the thing bad I am. But today, I got, there's a hero here today. Can we have, I can't wait to hear the, I'm so excited for your intro that you've written because these are my least, sorry, favorite parts about, go ahead. I can't sound like you almost said least, Sean. Hey, did, did, did, but I actually really like him, Jay.

There's thought behind them and they're all with you. Thank you. Thank you, Sean. You mean, I don't wing it like lazy boy over there or me. Yeah, or you. All right. Here he comes. Today our guest might be the person I've most wanted to meet in this nutty biz.

He's a man. You never met him. You never met him. I don't, if I have, I'm going in this nutty biz. He's a master film. You never met him? I don't, if I have, I'm going to be really embarrassed. I don't think I have. I would have remembered. But he's going to tell me maybe if he remembers and we didn't. Sorry.

I don't think we have. He's a master filmmaker and incredibly prolific. He's made his first movie 35 years ago and has made 35 films since. Oh my God. I'm not to mention as many, many projects for the small screen. His films have made over $2 billion and we see 14 Academy Award nominations in 2000.

He won the Oscar for Best Director and his odds were good because that year he was nominated for two films. He's come a long way from writing music for game shows and holding cue cards. He's got a couple of kids, a wife named Jules and we're born on the same day, January 14th. Please welcome the one and only Steven Soderbergh. Oh my God. So we're born on the same day. Yeah. Now see, I track you, you don't track me. It's all right. A minute. Yeah. January 14th. it's I shared a birthday with you, LL Cool J and Dave girl.

Well, okay, that's great. Come together again. It is. I would like to see I would like to see that grouping together. Steven Soderberg, welcome to Smarlas. What a cool. It's so nice to meet you. I'm going to be the most boring person here.

How does this work? How do what do I do? We're just going to bullshit. No, listen, are you sure? When we're starting with you? How does this work? What do I do? We're just going to bullshit. Listen, are you sure? When we're starting recording, we will tell you who the most boring people. Yeah, I can't. Listen, we're starting with a great Soderbergh piece of composition here.

He's got a frame left or frame right. He's got a spiral staircase cutting through the ceiling. It's like a cool shot. And it's a low angle. We've got a nice palette going. Steven, it's just, you never stop being great, right? This is the bunker. This is the bunker.

This is the bunker. This is the bunker. All right, now, Steven. Where do we start with? I know because I could, there's a lot. Sean's got, as he would say, 9,000 questions for you or 17,000 questions. For all the listeners I see people always go, Sean always says I've got 9,000 questions or 17,000.

You know what? He does. So F off. So steven. I, I've often felt like and I, and I feel like I've seen this out there before. So maybe it was informed by that and maybe it wasn't my original idea. But I've often felt like when people talk about independent film,

an independent film, the 90s where it's real heyday, that was sort of the genesis of the, you know, we had the oterus from the 70s, but then the 90s were like, it was like a whole new movement. And I feel like you were sort of on the cutting edge of that.

It's sex lies in videotape was late 80s, I'm gonna say like 80, 89, 89, 89. Sex lies in videotape really was the kicking off point for, and was the beginning of this sort of golden age of independent film. And you are really, really in a lot of ways the Godfather of that. And then you went on to make so many unbelievably incredible

films, some with bigger budgets, some not, but you've always maintained, there's something about the way that you've kind of kept that sort of independent spirit within the framework of the studio system. And I don't know if you agree with me or disagree with me, but is that something that was always,

I don't know, is that something that's part of you the way that you approach making films? I just a terrible question, but I think you know what I'm getting at. Yeah, I think I do. I think it comes down to all of the films that I saw that influenced me that I felt were great, had a signature.

They were made by, they felt as though they were made by an individual. And so, my goal coming up on the heels of what's often called the American New Wave that followed the new wave that came from Europe and other parts of the world. That was what made this feel new. We knew that there were studio films made by certain directors that had a certain signature. But the idea that that that that tradition over time on a percentage basis yielded better movies was not an idea that emerged until this new wave showed up and people like me who wanted to make movies were watching these movies and feeling like there was a difference between something that felt made by a person and something that felt made by a company.

Right. And that, I just felt, well, I want to do that. That's what I want to be a part of. And I've tried to maintain that and also sort of brainwash, you know, other people around me and behind me to sign on to that idea.

Well, not a... But you also did this thing where you, you, sorry Jason, but I just wanted to sort of still on this, where you made all these films and a lot of them very, all of them, very different from, from the next. And a lot of, I find that a lot of filmmakers have a signature style or a thing that they do that makes, you know, but that you have been able to sort of constantly change not necessarily the way you make films, but certainly, totally the way that you really lean into whatever it is that film that you're doing and you make it to that.

They're all very, very different. And I think it's such a testament to, I don't know. Like a lack of originality. No, no, no, no, you can't pigeonhole you. You can't pigeonhole you. Yeah, no, but that's, I'm a synthesis. I mean, I can tell you that right now, I'm a synthesis. I know the difference between somebody who's a true original

and somebody who's a synthesis original and somebody who's a synthesis. I've seen it, I've met them, I'm a synthesis. I don't look at anything I've done and gone, well I did that first, like that's not true. What I do and what I like to do is see as much as I can see and attach to as much as I can attach to that I think is really compelling and then put it in a bucket and you know stew it around as I'm envisioning whatever the next thing is and go okay I can use that I can use that I can use that I'm going to save those other things. They don't work for this.

I'll kick those down the road. But I'm just taking in anything I think is good. A shot, a line, a transition, an idea, a font, anything. Yeah. I'm looking for anything. So you don't, you kind of already just answer this, but I was gonna say, so you don't consciously seek out, like I wanna do a big gigantic franchise for a studio, because I have dollar signs in my eyes or whatever.

You'd rather go for idea, for whatever speaks to you personally, right? I mean, it's a dumb question, but you kind of just said it, correct? Well, I'm looking potentially through two different lenses. If there's nothing immediately in front of me, I'm just watching things to pick up new ideas and new information. Yeah. If there's something then that I focus on, oh, I'm going to do this next, then I start to telescope that toward things that I think have been really good in that space.

Yeah, because I think what's fascinating is with somebody like you and your brain, I'm sure lots of people want, we always ask this of people that are as successful as you as like, we try to get inside in the head and be like, what informs your decisions because they seem to be always correct? That's what's fascinating to me is like finding out what, where that comes from inside of you,

rather than this is a great story I've never seen it. It's kind of speak to something even deeper than that. And I'm always fascinated with people with your track record. It's like, God, you get it right time after time after time after time. What is that secret sauce? I look, if I knew what it was, I would tell you. But I would keep it from me. No, because I'm honestly, I'm the son of a teacher.

I'm an open source person. I don't keep anything that I've learned, private, even when people wish that I would. So, you know, it's purely a question of taste, which to get to the good version of something. And while doing that, in my view, and this is really important, creating an atmosphere of creativity, you don't do the shit by yourself. Creating an environment in which people are thinking about the thing. They're not thinking about you and how you're behaving.

They're thinking about the thing. And so you're in this continual conversation about what is the thing, what is the best version of this thing? If it's going good, you go with that and it's flowing. When it pushes back at you, what's your sort of checklist for why, you know, it's pushing back why. It was going fine. Now we've hit a bump. What's the, what are the questions I need to ask

to get to the solve? Yeah. There's no shortcut to that other than being on the floor. Right. So you very humbly say that you're a more of a synthesizer than something else. But what would you say to anybody out there listening that might be thinking about becoming a director and weighing the effort of education in that space and taking directing classes

or the equal of that, whatever that is. Like how much of what you do is technique that you've learned and how much of it is, as you say, just synthesizing different elements that you've observed, liked and then now you're just executing taste and putting together a combination of all those things and reacting on the fly. Well, whenever I'm asked, should I get a film school,

or if some parent asks, should my child get a film school? My response is that, look, if only to be part of a gang, it's worth it. I don't think anybody is going to teach, if they're good, they're good, and they will, they'll be fine. But you need a gang, like you need a group, you need, I had it, I just was lucky, I had it in high school instead of in college. So I just got lucky. But we were a gang. We were a gang of people that wanted to make movies and we're making short films, doing everything on everybody's projects. And so if that's the only thing you got out of going to film school, that's huge actually. Yeah, I would say that about college,

is like college was more, taught me more about. It's about socializing. Yes, exactly, exactly. And we will be right back. Smartless is sponsored by better help. You know, I remember when I was younger, auditioning for jobs as an actor and not getting them and you kind of start to doubt yourself

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Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Call or go to StateFarm.com for a quote today. And now back to the show. Speaking of a gang, you often work with the same people or you've worked with the same people a gang, you often work with the same people or you've worked with the same people a lot, two of which are our past guests on this little chat show, George Clooney and Matt Damon. Why do you think those two have managed to work so much given their limited level of talent?

Why the fuck is Matt? Yeah. Wiggled through. Matt is really, really, really through. Yeah, and so you're partly to blame for this. But why was it that you said yes to them so many times? Did they have stuff on you? Or what is that?

It's, it's, it's, it's craven. Yeah. It's, it was funny because in the case of George, you know, we met at a time where both of us were viewed as kind of question marks. It was we hadn't was that was that out of sight? Was that when you guys were... Pre-out of sight. This is pre-out of sight. So after sex lies, I've made five things that nobody saw, and not a lot of people liked.

And George was becoming a giant TV star and making movies that were doing okay, but for whatever reason, didn't seem to be capturing the essence of what makes George. And so we were both in this kind of weird, transitional space. It was a thing that I was not front of line. I had to wait for people to pass.

And I felt like I knew what it was. I just felt like I knew what it was. And I went, George was already attached. And I said, here's what I think it is, and they agreed with that. And it was a Jersey films and George's support that got me that job. I could not have been colder at that point. And that kind of for both of us just took the narrative in a different direction. Yeah, sidebar. When you look, let's be a go ahead and say.

I was just to say, behind the candle, we're allowing sidebars. Yeah, I didn't, by the way, big go ahead, part of our show. Yeah, when you're really, it's a fucking new incident. But go ahead, sidebar. No, I was gonna say Matt Damon,

and I were having dinner right before he started showing behind the candle, LaBra, and he said to me, I'm gonna get this wrong and he's gonna kill me, but it was something like Sean, I don't know what to do.

What do you think about me making out with Michael Douglas in this movie, like so? He goes, are people gonna be able to lose themselves in my role? I was like, well of course, they said are people gonna write about like that part? Something like that. And I said, well of course you guys

are both brilliant actors, but no, the press is definitely gonna take photos. And you know, the stills, I'm gonna say, of course you guys are both brilliant actors, but no, the press is definitely going to take photos. And you know, the stills, I'm going to say, Matt Damon and Michael Douglas are making out in this movie. Like, there's no, you can't avoid that. It was so funny. And I'm like, why am I asking? I was going to ask you, how do I really, how do I kiss a man?

Yeah, and I was like, I said, do you want to run lines? Like I asked for a workshop that real quick. Do you, that was at the end of the season? That's not just my little story. He was like, no, no. How do I avoid, no. Press of that. I saw in the day before we started shooting, and he said,

He said, I had this terrible dinner with this actor. Sean. Who's initials are Sean Hayes? Who's initials are Sean Hayes? Who's initials are Sean Hayes. Yeah. Who's initials are shh. And that's all I hear from Jason as well. Yeah.

And he goes, I want to be clear about where I should be pitching this. And I said, I think tomorrow when you put the whole thing on, you'll know exactly what it is. If you're an actor, this is why I tried desperately to not engage in sort of intellectual conversations with an actor about a scene that we're trying. It's physical. If the physical stuff's right, it's gonna be right. And so that starts with the wardrobe, literally it does.

Like, what am I shoes, what am I like, what? Yeah, because it helps. It helps so much. Are you happy in what you're wearing? Are you not happy in what you're wearing? Like, it's a part of the fact, I wanna make it physical. And I just said, when you put that hair and the stuff on,

you're gonna be that guy. That's right. Yeah, Jason, do you see yourself arguing with Stephen on set if you're working together? Because he won't intellectualize. And I know that you like to grind people to a fine nub with your stupid questions. Do you find, as, sorry, let me just start that again. As artists, or as they're from the true Nazter.

I know, I know, I know, I'm fucking with you. Okay, but let me ask Jason, let me ask you a few questions. So George, George subsequent to us working together then became a director. Confessions of a dangerous man. Great director. Yeah, and Matt would be a great director too. became a director. Confessions of a dangerous money. Great director. Yeah. And Matt would be a great director too.

I think so too. Yeah for sure. He's waited a long time, isn't he? It's coming. But I will not repeat what George said to me after having directed his first film about actors. Yeah. Oh, come on, you gotta say it.

You gotta say it. I don't, I just said it. I can't imagine. Yeah, I can imagine. You know what I mean? He just had a very, he's like, wow, I, he goes, sounds obvious and like a cliche, but I have a very, very different view now of what happens when somebody comes at me, isn't it? Yeah, but, but Jay, Jay, you said that similarly to me here and outside of here, where you just

like, I want to get you. Yeah, it's just like, I want to get you. You don't appreciate how, how helpful a helpful actor can be. Oh, dude, can save your ass. Until you direct, because it's between action and cut, the director is completely helpless. You are fully reliant on the operator, the dollar grip, the actor, the boom operator, everybody to not fuck it up and just try to make everything coalesce and be aware that you're dancing with other departments.

It might not be on camera, but but it's all got to work. And if you can kind of keep half an eye on the process and all that, so if somebody like George or Matt who both have the huge set IQs, they can help while things are rolling. And George certainly, once he started directing, probably realize that even more. But Jay, you said something really smart.

They're like, I don't, I think it was on here. You've seen something like the more, and I'm looking at my calendar. Yeah, hopefully it's recorded. You said, share calendar, a share calendar with Jason's wife. What did I say? I was happy. No, what I was going to say, you said something about like,

what was like working with the actors about like, you, there's a you said something about like, double-sided work. Working with actors about like, there's a line where you have these great discussions with them, but you know where to end them, because if you engage too long, you reach a point where you're just talking in circles after a while or something like that. Yeah, and ultimately like, it's not up to you, director. Like the actor's gonna do what what that actor can do the best they

possibly can do it. And I've read Stephen that you've said that, I'm paraphrasing here obviously, but basically the spirit of it was you have a very light touch because you realize that the best results will come from the atmosphere, up comfort and confidence and safety and you will encourage them. I think you said something like, I wanna make sure everybody's okay. And then you'll keep them all on the rails. As opposed to a more sort of prescriptive version

of directing, which is, you know, I see you going up on this word and maybe come back down at the end of the line and then sit down over here like it happens all the time. No, but there has to be a structure, there has to be a decider. What my goal is to just have the process feel like it's evolving organically, but it's really a trust issue that if it all comes down to,

when I say, no, that doesn't work, you believe me. Right. It's not, I'm not shutting you down for any other reason than I've gained out all the versions of this with that in it. And I'm telling you, it's an org that needs to be extracted. That doesn't fit. That we have enough of a relationship because you've usually been spot on.

You know what I mean? When you go like, hey, what if I do, what if the, and I go, yes, that's good, chase that. Right. But when I go, no, that doesn't work because of X that then we move on. And I'm sure you carry a lot more credibility than other directors do with some actors, because you're actually oftentimes holding the camera and you have written it and you're

going to be editing it. Like you've got your arms around completely around all the projects that you do and the in the best way. And I was so envious that you know how to operate and that you know how to edit and know how to write and all that stuff. It's right. Yeah. I was going to ask a real well I was going to ask if I could Sean because you've had two sidebars and three questions. You derailed the entire thing just to side bar and now we're on to loose quotes that Jason's got of even I think you want said. No, we're actually I mean I'm putting George in his mouth. This is just an absolute affront to the man. I would I would I want him to get back to just just because you touched

on it before you talked about when you were early on, when you and George got together, and you started, and you'd been making some films that nobody knew that nobody had seen, or whatever, you're a very, for, as a director, you're very prolific. Unusually, I'm usually so, I would say, to the extent that not, two of the better directors, American directors,

in the last 30 years are you and Todd Field. And Todd's made five films, I don't, I call him Todd, I don't know him. He's made five films and you've made sort of 30. He's made three. Maybe he's made three. Is it three? Three. Yeah.

Wow. In the bedroom, little children and tar, that's it. Is that hit? Yep. Features. I mean, incredible. A thousand commercials. That's really the exact commercial. Yeah, features. I mean, incredible. A thousand commercials. That's really the exact commercial.

Yeah, yeah. But, and you've made a lot, and again, maybe 30 or 25 or something like that. And you've both made great movies. Is there something to, for you as an artist, do you enjoy that process of constantly creating concerts? You need to be constantly creating, because you don't have to do it. I guess you just want to. Well, you thought about not doing it anymore for a little while, and then it was just to hiatus, yeah?

Yeah, that was boy. That was embarrassing. Um. We're not going to let that go. Probably this quoted or overly-quoted. No, no, no. That was the problem. I was very accurately quoted.

Look, I'm in the volume business. That's just my metabolism. There's a big downside to that, which is nothing you do is an event. Interesting. But I just, I can't let that stop me. No, but you still make that great. Well, we'll sort that out later.

But I, you like doing what you do, so why not keep doing it, right? Yeah. Well, by the way, maybe it's not an event in the sense that you've, you know, if you release a film and you've released a film a year before, to the extent that like, well, okay, he's got another, but you make a, you're consistently, you make really good films. So you, that, that's not a strike against you or a knock against you. If anything, I just, I'm just interested in the process that some people like to do need that to do it more. Oh, I would love if people were like,

he's Taylor Swift. Right. He's the Taylor Swift of cinema. I would love that. Nobody is saying that. Just put a wig on. We are gonna say it. There's our tease, right there.

Oh my God. That is our tease. Wait, I have a dumb dumb thing to say about contagion. Have people, the last 20 years just been like, did you know that when you made contagion, there was gonna be COVID? Wait, Sean, by the way, so sorry.

How are you separating yourself from, that's what you're asking. Yeah, why do you make yourself sound like that? But where was that person from? My hub. What's your hometown, Sean? Chicago. Yeah, it was, I'll bet you did a ton of research going into that film that the past administration could have benefited from. Just your pre-production notes.

Probably gears. You know what, here we, there are a couple of things we missed. could have benefited from just your pre-production notes. Probably Gary's. You know what, here we, there are a couple of things we missed. The big one we missed was that the idea that the Jude law character in contagion would be the president. That's what we missed. We presented them, we presented them as this sort of note in a larger chord. We didn't imagine a world in which he's the chord.

And so that's the big thing we got wrong. But from a technical, you want to make a comedy. No, but from a technical level, this is what everybody said. This is how it's going to start. And were you, are you a science guy, were you interested in any of that kind of stuff? Well, I mean, I like it. And-

The only reason I ask, cause I'm gonna ask next about magic, Mike, not that I've seen it. Well, that's science. That's science. I mean, that's your science. Sean, would you like Will and I to just take a 10 minute break? You go through all three of the magic likes.

Sean, and Sean's going to be embarrassed to ask you and he's kind of, he's got a bit of an issue because he went to me and said to me, I said, did you see magic? My guy said, yeah, and I said, do you like it? And he says, yeah, I was okay. I go, what's wrong? And he said, there were no fucking bears in it. And it was just slim muscle guys. I was like, I'm out.

I'm out. I'm out. That's true. No, I asked about like, you know, going back to my earlier question from an hour ago, which is like, what is, what's the criteria for you to choose projects? It's like, you go from like Jason was saying,

you go from like contagionion which is a science crazy movie to remaking the ocean things or whatever the order is to strippers magic mic. I mean it's so so all over the place which is so incredible. It's so it's so yeah what's the thing that draws you to stuff is is it thematics or is it just based on well who brought me the script and who's the writer or where does it shoot is it any number of things? When I saw you directing Magic Man, I was like, Steve, what? Wait, it was so cool though. Yeah, I don't have a, I only have one rule.

I don't have a rule in terms of where it comes from. It doesn't have to be my idea. I'm really agnostic about that. The only rule is if it's not a hell, yeah, it's enough. Yeah, I like that. I love that. Well, but what you say, and I mean a hell yeah, I mean, as you know, when you say, yeah, I'm going to direct this, you know what that means. And it's, it's, it's, that's rule number one. Like, it has to be a hell yeah, I would do it for free. I would do it for however long it's gonna take.

You have to be that excited, or don't do it. Would you ever, what about if it was a hell to the years at? And let me ask you. How would, I'm a young director, I haven't done a lot, but I'm trying out this thing where the, it about you is young. It doesn't need to be a hell yeah, as much as just a yeah, because basically a double,

because I feel like I can make it a triple during my work with it during pre-production, and maybe even make it a home run during shooting it, and then definitely buy through post, through the editing and stuff. So, like, does it need to be like a hell yeah, at the beginning, because you've got so much time with it to make it yours?

Well, two things. Yeah. I have the luxury of taking that position, which is not a small thing. Now, that came about through a set of circumstances that were I think pretty unique. The how sex lies happened. Yeah. Um, where some people really supported me and let me do that the way I wanted to do it. Yeah. And then from that point forward, that allowed me to do things the way I wanted them to do.

I had no contractual power on sex lies. I only had the power of persuasion of convincing people. I think this is the best version of this. Yeah. They agreed. And for my sister in Wisconsin, when you say sex lies, it's sex lies and video tape, the big OV from the 90s. Do you think that's the tipping point for her?

Yeah, yeah. She likes that. She likes that. Sex lies, sex lies, sex lies. But believe me, she likes to know these things. She likes to know these things. Yeah, so yeah, go ahead. Then I take your point that,

depending on where you are in your life, in your career, there could be levels of hell, yeah, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. But I feel like there's at least got to be one. Yeah. It could be the person that's the lead right in the thing. And you're like, look, there's some stuff on the edges of this that are really etched in shallow. But I love this person. I've had a great experience with this person before. I feel safe. Like, you know, that could be a hell yeah, absolutely.

Can that be a crew member? Can that be a first AD or a... Yeah, I think anybody that it has to be somebody that you feel is next to you the whole time no matter how escalated any conversation gets about what this thing should be. You know what I mean? It's got to be somebody who, you're, I'm like, it's not just me, it's them too. We'll be right back. Hey smartless listener, we are brought to you in part by Macy's. The first day of school is around the corner.

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the EU and Australia. And back to the show. You have such an incredible eye and aesthetic and taste. And it's just, it seems like you really enjoy cinematography. It would seem to me like you would really dork out in being able to hire the most incredible cinematographers available, yet your direct photography on a lot of your own films under a different name. Well, do you sometimes want to maybe like go call Hoi Tefan Hoi Tefan and like, I mean, how do you, I don't know?

It's a sacrifice. I'm trading one thing for another. I'm trading that I'm not as good as them for the, I'm not bad and the level of intimacy that it gives me with the cast. I would trade it even if I was bad. Yeah, yeah. I like that relationship and so it would be impossible for me to insert a genius like Emmanuel Lesky who I worked with in 1994.

It was his first job in the US on a anthology series for Showtime. And if you were to watch it now, it's all there. He was fully formed. He was Chivo right out of the gate, but I really need that. I need that sense of just us in the room. Right. It takes away a late one, once you put another person in there, and again, these are brilliant people. You feel like it removes a, it just puts yet another barrier between you and the cast in that way that you've got to constantly run You you there's a there's an added layer of dialogue that you have to have With some other person rather than it just being you in the camera and the cast and working Right? Yeah, and it's it's not like I'm saying ever that should be everybody's goal

No, I'm just I'm just saying like you this is how I came up I I was hanging out for four years of high school with these college aspiring filmmakers. I knew my way around a dark room. I was a photographer for the yearbook. Like it it it just was a very organic thing to want to be the nodal point for a series of decisions that constitute directing, like that was, and it just took me a while to work my way back to that. But I feel like you make really sort of sophisticated films and you don't, and you have a lot of,

you sort of trust that the audience can meet you there. That's one of the things that I really enjoy about your films. I feel like they're like accessible sophisticated films. And you're not worried about alienating your, the audience. In fact, I imagine that you have, and tell me if I'm wrong, but that you've had conversations with studios over the years where they've been worried that your films are thematically or the way that they look or the way that they set up or that they're worried that it's not going to connect with the audience and that I get this feeling from you that it's like, it's okay. I know what I'm doing. I'm going to make this film. Yes, it's going to have a sophisticated

elements to it, but I'm going to connect with the audience. It does seem like you're always aware that there's a big commercial center of it that you are giving something to the audience to the studio, but the execution is always elevated and sophisticated. Well, the films that I like the most were both commercial and artful. I mean, that was what the American New Wave did. It fused a sort of aesthetic that came from outside of the United States of America, a sort of aesthetic that came from outside of the United States of America, a sort of attention to style and character that people in other parts of the world were doing.

And then blended it with this very, very American desire to tell a clear narrative. And that it was like the perfect fusion of these two. That's what I wanted to do. So, you know, the things that I feel haven't worked have been the ones that have fallen too far into, wow, that would really work if it had subtitles. But can you explain style to Jason and Sean because they, I don't know how to say lack of it,

it's just that they're on a smart list. You should on. Oh, there it is. There it is. Well, you did mention that all the presidents men is one of your favorite movies. What's your favorite film of all time? Well, that's impossible. But I think you rank you rank them at one point and all the presidents men was number two. I was very excited. Yeah, when I was younger, I used to. But I think, look, in the summer of 1975, when I was in St. Petersburg, Florida visiting my grandparents

alone, I saw jobs. Now, I was just gonna bring that up. Prior to this point, my father was a cinema fanatic. He gave me the cinema bug and we watched. He took me to the web like we all, this was part of our bond. Right, so. But that was the first time after that movie was over. Ironically, this perfect piece of entertainment now made me not think of movies as just entertainment

anymore. So I had two questions. What is directed by me and who is Steven Spielberg? So it turns out, you know, in any store that you walked into, there was a paperback called the JAWSLog that Carl Gottlieb wrote, and it answered both of those questions. And I carried this thing around with me and highlighted every section that mentioned Steven Spielberg. And then a year later,

when we moved to Baton Rouge, Louisiana, where my dad was dean of education at LSU, I fell in with these college film students and got my hands on a camera and everything started to move. Wow. And if you say both of your names fast, they sound the same. Oh, I was just going to say, when you were saying, talking about like, you know, Americanizing storytelling, I was literally, I swear to God, I was going to say like, Jaws, I was going

to say that. But anyway, do you still go to the movie theaters now or do you just watch that? I'll be thinking at home. No, I do both. I do, yeah. I still, this is never gonna go away. It's too fun to see something with a lot of people.

Have you seen something about the movie theaters that you love recently? I think the last thing I saw in a theater, and this is only because I've shot three things in a row in the last 12 months. Last thing I saw in a theater would have been Top Gun, which just proves that Tom Cruise has saved the movie that something had been made.

Right, right? Now, I wanna talk about full circle, but before we do, we, oh, first thing that comes to your mind if I ask you what your favorite part of directing is. The surprise that is the result of arranging the elements in the right way that will result in a surprise, something, typically something an actor does. And where do you see that surprise?

Do you see it on the first rehearsal? Do you see it on the first take? Or do you see it when you put it all together in the editing room? I'm open to any of that. If it happens in a rehearsal, it's, as long as it happens, we win. So you're open and excited to that which you did

to imagine life's fate. There was a thing that a shot that we did in Logan Lucky where Adam Deriver or something's shot out of a tube to Adam and there's there's some lack of understanding whether the thing that's in his hand could actually blow up and kill all of them. And Daniel Craig is sort of, yeah. He comes over and takes the thing from Adam and had a reaction on the first tape that I ruined the tape. Too much laughing.

No, I just ruined the tape. Like it was something I didn't see coming. And it's in the movie, but I had to loop his vocalization just before he did it and his vocalization just after because he was laughing. Yeah. But what about have you what was the camera shaking till? Because you were no thank God. It was on a head. It was locked down. So I was touching it, but I didn't shake it.

And that's a problem as you know, they can be solved and posed. But no, that means we all did our job and created this sort of velvet lined shoot that led to somebody going, what if I did this? And you're like, that's better. It's better. How worried are you about AI?

Well, that's a good question. Not just for filmmaking, just in general, because I feel that's a good question, because I think this is at the center of a lot of what's going on right now. I can only speak of it as a creative person and go, it's an iterative tool. It's never gonna get you in the end zone.

It hasn't experienced anything. It's, you know what I mean? Like, it hasn't experienced anything. Even to the point of, it can look into your eyes, but it has no eyes. And so therefore, it doesn't know what it means, you know, to be looked at by some like my mom, right? That's what I was saying.

And I think what you're describing potentially is what I've just sort of blank it and use the blanket term of quirk. It doesn't have the advantage of possessing any quirk because it hasn't had any experience. Nothing's happened to it. But Jason, I think to your point, to me, it's just an iterative tool. There's that perfect explanation of how to solve things from the Ed Katmull book about Pixar or Creativity Inc. Where the motto is, be wrong as fast as you can. So, this is a tool, this is a tool to just, what I tell people all the time is, just get

to the end. If this helps people get to the end, does something fine? All right. Tell us about full circle. And I watched the first episode. It is typically and predictably fantastic. Another piece of great work from you. It's by design somewhat cryptic at the beginning, and I'm imagining the future episodes, things

start to slot into place. So without giving away any of those satisfying things, what is the thing? It is a kidnapping that goes wrong. But is there a thematic there at work that you like to play with often or not? Oh, sure. I mean, you know, buried things never stay buried. I mean, that's what this is about. And in this instance, you know, it'd been buried for long enough that people had literally

forgotten about it. And so it's kind of a rude awakening. You can run, but you can't hide, can't you? Yeah. And it's absolutely privileged, torture porn. I'm a big fan of that genre. I think I think Ed Solomon, I think Ed Solomon found a really interesting take on that. And so, you know, I love that non-linear storytelling and different perspectives. I can't wait to be surprised how they come together and

braid at some point. Well, for a while. I don't know to be surprised. They come together and braid at some point. Well, first of all, you do that so well. I don't know anything about it, Stephen. And I'm a big kind of Ed Salman. I've actually wrote Bill and Ted's and Men in Bite. Another guy is very prolific and done a lot of stuff. It's very thematically different from the next one. And a bunch of the next.

And a bunch of stuff with you, which is such a great pairing now that I think about it. Of course, you guys are both just clearly interested, not interesting people. I'm sure you're both very interesting as well, but you're also very interested, which is great. What is full circle? Because I know nothing about it.

It's a show that's coming on Max. Yeah, it's a gigantic sort of New York Sydney Lumet style melodrama. You know what I mean? There's a crime in the center of it that sort of takes you all over the city. And like I said, it's about karma. It's about something that somebody took a party 20 years ago, forgot about it, and now it's come back. It's grown roots and branches, and now they have to deal with it. And that's the kind of

thing that I like. It was fun to make a real New York, you know what I mean? Like, It's fun to make a real New York. Yeah. You know what I mean? It seemed like there's a lot of night work in that, Steven. There was a lot of night work. And if I were the studios, if I were the studios negotiating, I would give up almost everything to say like 5%, like night work, Yeah, more than that. We're just hated. Yeah. Now, a little talk about side bars. Side job here for you. A

Signani 63 is a beverage. Are you getting into the, to the, what's Signani? Oh God, you guys. The business a little bit. Yeah. Sengani is a spirit from Bolivia. It's just booze, guys. It's booze. It's hard stuff. Anyway, I'm going to do this really quickly when we were making Che, our Bolivian casting director gave me a bottle. As a gift, it had never been out of Bolivia. It's the National Spirit of Bolivia. And it's made from the white musk out of Alexandria.

Great. It was a white grape. It's grown into steel. And there's one 20,000 acre area of southern Bolivia. It's 6,000 feet. So it's a very, very, it's hard to make. And I got this stuff stuff and I loved it. And for the next six months, while we were shooting, I created a mule train so that we could all drink it.

At the end of that, some people pressured me to bring this to America, which I did in 2014. In February of this year, the Tax and Terror Bureau, which is part of the Treasury Department and FDA and ATF, gave St. Garni its own category. This is something they don't do often. It's something they don't like to do, but they did it because it's a unique spirit. And this solved one problem when I was doing my Willie Lomon act, taking bottles around in a backpack and going, hey, what do you think?

Not a great look. Now, if legitimize is that, when people will go, well, what is it like? And I would go, well, it's not actually like anything. And now, finally, that's been legitimized. But let's just end with, do not go into the booze business. Don't do it. Well, there's no a cluny set.

Yeah, or Ryan Reynolds. Don't know. He knows how angry I am. I've told him. It's funny, because I did some, it was quite more profit, some muleing out of Bolivia myself, but it was a different. Um, Jesus. I know. Stephen, it's such an honor to meet you.

I've wanted to meet you forever and I'm being, I think, saying it. You're kind of all your movies. We, uh, we so appreciate you, uh, you spending some time with us. Sure do. So happy to meet you, finally. I'm going to hook up to this at the same time next week if you guys are here. Yeah, surely. Yeah, I totally will. Sadly, we'll this at the same time next week if you guys are here. Yeah, truly. Yeah, it's hard to say.

Sadly, we'll be in the same scene. I want to see you cascade down that staircase. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Can't wait to meet you'll person one day

and have a great rest of your day, Stephen. Thank you for coming. Thanks. Thank you, pal. All right, bye, pal. There you have, Stephen Soderbergh. It was a nice surprise, Jason, baby, man. This man, how'd you get that?

Yeah. I don't, you know, I've got my ways. No, I don't tell us, but okay. My God, I am very surprised I've never, have you guys ever run into him? No, never. Never. Never. Never. Never not one. He's not a man about town. I don't know.

And I will say, I meant to do, I really admire how prolific he's been. I love the idea that he just takes so many, not just a lot of shots, so many different kinds of shots. Like Aaron Brockovich. Aaron Brockovich. And then... Sex, magic, video tape, traffic. Just like magic, my, all those things, all by the same guy.

But what about that? Not since 1938 or 39, I think it was, had a director been nominated for two films in the same year. For Bestor. You nominated for Aaron Brockovich and Traffic. Traffic Best Director.

And so we had two slots in the file. That's incredible. That's bananas. That is bananas. It is bananas. How quickly Sean, did you go, um, do you opening data full frontal? When that came out, that was the next year. That was the next year. He did full frontal. I preordered tickets for that. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, by the way, you know what, I just learned

yesterday, guys? Tell Sean, this should be good. And Hawaii. Uh-huh. Did you know? It's against the blind apples and no, No, no, no, no. Why? No, listen to the whole thing. And why? It's against the law to laugh really hard out loud in public. Did you know that? That's a bullshit. You have to keep it to a low, huh?

Oh, man. I would just also like to say. Fuck. Man. I would just also like to say. Oh. Oh. Oh. So I also like to say. I would also like to say, I love when I see you guys, because we don't see each other, and whenever we get together, we talk for a really long time. You know, it's like time flies by.

Oh, will to not like that one. They're just getting lazier. You're just kind of. Time flies by is a good one. Shooting in a father joke too. A dad joke. I just heard it yesterday. That's really good.

His signature is just a bad joke. And then he tries to shoehorn in a bite. It's so... That was a good one. We've never used time flies by. No. Smarks. Smarks.

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This episode was recorded on May 30th. Our next episode will be out in a week wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can listen to it right now, early on Amazon Music, or early and ad-free by subscribing to Wondry Plus in Apple Podcasts or the Wondry app. Casey Shane was murdered in the middle of an August night, shot Point Blank, while idling in his Dodge pickup truck in North Indianapolis. There was no physical evidence, no known motive, and no one coming forward with information, except one woman who swears to this day she saw Leon to Troi Benson pull the trigger.

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