Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - Ariana Debose

Episode Date: August 14, 2022

Already a Tony-nominated triple-threat on Broadway and a member of the original cast of Hamilton, Ariana DeBose shot to Hollywood stardom with an electrifying performance as Anita in Steven Spielberg���s West Side Story. In this week’s Sunday Sitdown, Willie Geist gets together with the actress to talk about that role that won her a Golden Globe and an Academy Award. (Original broadcast date: February 27, 2022) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks as always for clicking and listening along. Today, we revisit a favorite conversation with Ariana DeBose. Let me update that for you. Oscar winner, Ariana DeBose. You see, when we sat down together a few months ago, she had just won the Golden Globe Award and been nominated for the Academy Award for Best Supporting Actress for her extraordinary performance in Stephen Spielberg's West Side Story. Since then, we're happy to report she won the big trophy, along with just about every acting trophy you could win during this year's award season. We sat down at one of her favorite Broadway haunts, the kind of place she would dip in after a big show in musicals like Hamilton. Perhaps you've heard of it. A great conversation with someone who's so talented and so easy to root for having her big moment, Ariana DeBose, Oscar winner, right now on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Arana, thank you for doing this. Oh my gosh, are you kidding?

Thank you for having me. It's so great to meet you and also to be at the center of sort of this is your life with Hamilton across the street and summer was right over here. It was. Now it's, you know, the wonderful Tina Turner musical. From Donna to Tina. Isn't that wild? Pretty good swap out, right?

I think the lunt is just like the house of the great divas. So I'm like, cuckoo, who would get next? Granted, I wish Tina a long run just for the record. She'll be there for a while. She'll be there for a while. What does it like to be back on this street where so many good things in your life have happened to get you to the place you are now? It feels like coming home. You know, I'm very comfortable on 46th Street.

And I love where we are. We're up on 45. You know, it's, they treat me like family here. They always have, you know. And that I'm, I feel like when you're in the theater, especially like when you're in Midtown, you're always looking for your spots that make you comfortable. You can dash in and get warm if it's, you know, snowing or raining on you. And they're like, here, please have a coffee. Or they just help get you in and out a little faster because they know you have a curtain to make.

It's just kind of fun. It's like it's a real neighborhood, a real community. Yeah, for people who don't realize it really is. It's a tight few blocks in here. It's a lot of actors and different shows who are friends and they might get together before a show or between shows or after a show. And it feels like a neighborhood. This is an after show spot. We love to see it.

You saddled up at that bar a couple times maybe? A couple. Maybe I was shared lightly. But, you know, here's the real truth. When you do Broadway shows, the schedule is so odd. You exert so much energy at night. Yeah. So theater people become night out.

So you have to find a spot that you can actually wind down. And pre-pandemic, this is very much a spot for not just my show, but many shows, many theater artists would come here and just hang out. It's kind of like a watering hole. If you watch Lion King or anything like that. Isn't that odd? I'm like, I was a Broadway star who also is an avid Disney animated lover. She does it all.

She does something. Well, that's the thing. You can't be Donna Summer and just go back to your apartment and go to sleep. You got to go somewhere after it. You can't do it. Yeah, you got to let it out. You got to let it out. And this is a great safe space.

And honestly, I have cut a rug in this little dance rectangle. many a time. I bet you have. We miss those nights. It is so exciting to be talking to you in this moment. I was just saying to have you where so many good things are happening for you right now, from winning the Golden Globe to hosting us in hell to now having an Oscar nomination. What does it feel like to hear all those things like back to you?

Is that a good? Oh, it is. It is good. It's great. It's wonderful. It's phenomenal. Like, there actually aren't enough adjectives to be frank. It's an ongoing feeling, you know.

When I was a kid, I watched the Oscars. Like, for me, Whoopi Goldberg was the host. I actually thought it was her show. And we were all just, not we. There wasn't a we. It was they. They were all just coming to, like, see Whoopi, do anything, and then they'd hand out awards.

And I loved it so much. Everyone was so beautiful. It was like a mile marker of beauty for me. And then also realizing, oh, but they're all actors and they're all different and wonderful. And I loved watching them, you know, make their acceptance speeches. And I was like, oh, everybody says, and I'd like to thank the Academy. And I kid you not, I would sit in the floor in my grandmother's living room and mouth the words I'd like to thank the Academy with them. I did. I really did.

Oh, my gosh. So to now be a nominee, it's wild. But I'm also like it's something I threw energy at for such a long time. I rooted for all of these folks, many of whom I've now had the opportunity to work with. And that's even crazier to me. But it's thrilling. I don't quite know what to do with it. But whatever happens, whatever I do with it, I just hope it's good.

Well, it's already been good. I mean, right? If it ended today, you've won awards and you've had all these opportunities. And as you said, you've earned them. We were joking a minute ago about the term overnight success. Yeah, it's hilarious. Some people may have just discovered you, but you've been at this for a little bit. I have.

You know, I moved to the city when I was, what, 19 years old, you know, and I got my first job, the first bigger job three months after I'd been here, like, pounding the pavement. So, and when I say pounding the pavement, like, I lived in Sunnyside Queens on my friend's couch, and I get up at 5 a.m. and get myself ready and get myself to the non-equity lines and the equity lines, and I'd sign up for everything and just try to get seen. You know, and I could afford like 50-cent coffee and maybe a muffin. You know, so I really did it. And every, you know, not for nothing.

I'm actually very proud of this. I've been in six Broadway shows in a very short amount of time. And I'm very aware that that's an anomaly in and of itself because most people just want one. And some people just get one. And it's really special to be a creator at all. But I won't lie when I first started making movies. It was very funny. Even Stephen was like, where'd you come from?

And I was like, oh, I've been working on Broadway, and I think it took him a minute to realize that I actually wasn't 16 years old. I have a baby face. But at the time that we made this movie, I was 28 years old. And I'm 31 now. Isn't that weird? I'm like, oh. But when you get this type of exposure to have people recognize your work,

even if it's just one thing that they know you from. It is really cool, and you are new to them. And quite frankly, I'm just happy to be seen. So I'll be new to you. That's okay. It's nice to meet you. I'm glad you like my work. And also, it's been a while.

It's been a thing. Put something into this. Yeah, right. And it's not that I have a carefully calculated career, but I believe in versatility. So once people do get to know my work, you will realize I don't do this. same thing twice. Even if I'm doing musicals, none of them are the same. And now that I get to make on-screen work, I plan to keep that as a general rule. I don't want to do the same type of work because that means you're not growing and changing. And I thrive on challenge and

growth and change. And I think it's a cool time for change right about now. Yeah. You know, the industry's changing, listening in a different way. And, you know, people like, people are talking about firsts right now. I'm sure we'll get to this in the conversation. but might as well just like throw it on the table. You know, I've been told I'm the first Afro-Latina, the first openly queer woman of color to be nominated for an Oscar. I was like, that's cool. It is cool if those are indeed correct titles.

It's cool to be first because in my mind that's indicative that there will be more. You know, and that's great change. It's a great mild marker for a change in my opinion. But hey, what do I know? I'm an overnight success. Well, it's interesting how you came to this extraordinary movie because it sort of blends your life as a Broadway actor into movies, which is that you were in summer. Yeah.

And you get a phone call that a certain Steven Spielberg wants to see you. Like tomorrow, I think, she wants to see you. Well, and the weird thing was, I didn't even know he was going to be there. Like, Cindy Toll and our incredible casting director called and was like, just come in, just come in. And I've since learned that apparently I turned down this audition four times. Didn't know that. But, you know, I also was in a Broadway show. I had a show to keep alive, you guys.

Yeah, she called and asked me to come to Brooklyn at 10.30 the next morning. And I was like, yay. And also, ooh, Brooklyn was far. I lived in Harlem at that time. So if anybody knows anything about New York, it's like, ooh, public transit. That's going to take me like an hour. change to get there, guys. Did you tell you what it was for specifically?

I knew it was for West Side Story. And I knew I was going to be asked to sing and dance and they wanted me to read the sides. And I was like, these are very long sides. So please know. I would be happy to come back if you like what I do, but I don't have the time. I got to go home, eat a chicken breast and go to sleep so that I can get up and, you know, dance, whatever I'm asked to dance and execute it well.

And she was like, don't worry about it. I got your back. And then I got there and discovered that Stephen was actually on the premises and very much a part of the audition. I don't know what that's about, by the way. It just keeps happening. You slipped into like Downton Abbey or something. Well, by the way, I love Downton Abbey, but I really love Gilded Age on HBO Max. Why?

Because it's filled with Broadway talent who are killing it on screen. Probably some of your friends. Yes. Deney Benton is, well, we're not besties, but I'm an admirer of hers, and we have spent some time together, and I really enjoy her. Also, my queen Donna Murphy, are you kidding? Yeah. Like, she's just absolutely stunning. Celia Keeney and Bollger.

I can go on and on. It's a very long list of wonderfully, wonderfully talented people. Did you know Stephen Spielberg was on the other side of the door when you opened it? No. Or you just walked in very well? I heard a rumor. I was very focused because I was that guy. I got to pull this together.

And I had heard one of my good friends, Poloma Garcia Lee, who actually ended up playing Gratzella in the film, was like, I think Steven's here. And I was like, great, this is going well for me. I actually, when I did walk in the room and saw him standing there, he went to, and there was another actress that he went to. I think he had met her before, and he hugged her.

And I watched the interaction, and he seemed very, you know, approachable. He seemed lovely. I looked for someone I knew in the room because I was like, okay, do I have an ally? Kevin McCollum was there, and he is one of our executive producers on West Side Story, but he also, little-known fact, was one of our lead producers on Motown, the musical. He gave me my second Broadway show. I was one of the Supremes for him.

I was Mary Wilson of the Supremes, and I understudied Diana Ross. Believe it or not. a 21-year-old Diana Ross Understudy, ladies and Jen. But it was nice because I was like, oh, you actually, you know me, or at least professional me. So I hugged Kevin and then said hello to everyone. And we went about our business and I danced and he enjoyed it. And he asked me to sing and I sang and I sang and they enjoyed that. Imagine it.

Tony Kushner was like my Bernardo. a very wonderful, tall Jewish man who changed the face of the world with angels in America. A personal year out is going to be my Bernardo. And I'm just supposed to be real cool about it. Said no one ever. And then, you know, he asked me to, if I would read. And I just said, nope, no, sir.

And he looked at me like, I had five heads. Now, if you were to ask him about this interchange, She might have a different version of it, but this is how it goes for me. You said, you're not going to read. And Cindy Tolan, our casting director, came in. I was like, we spoke about Ariana. She's starring in a show. She just needs a little more time to be truly prepared.

And he said, so you're not going to read. And I said, no, again. And he's like, but you will come back. And I said, I'd be honored. But that took some courage. It did. And the you 10 years ago probably wouldn't have done that. Actually, I don't know.

I think the you, the me, the, the you. I mean, the you 10 years ago. I definitely wouldn't have done it at any age. The me 10 years ago, it would have been the, at the time, it would have been the me that moved to New York. Yeah. And mind you, I moved to New York fresh off of a very public,

so you think you can dance or rejection. So I had something to prove to myself, not to anybody else, really. She might would have done it. Just to say, just to, but she might have done it for different reasons. She probably would have done it to be different. Yeah.

Whereas I did it because I actually understood that as a woman of color, when you walk into a room like that, you better be prepared. And if you're not, like, that's a missed opportunity. It's a blown opportunity. And because we get to a few opportunities, you can't afford to not present well or represent yourself well. It's just not something you can do. and I already felt like it was a long shot anyways because when I walk in there, people are like, she's African American, she's black.

And I was like, I'm black. I'm also Afro-Latina. And it's been something that's been hard throughout my career because people don't, people don't seem to understand that you can be both. You know, having Hispanic heritage can be in a multitude of things. There are people can come from all, over South America, you know, it's, it doesn't, or Africa, you know, or have indigenous roots.

There's not one way to be Latina, which is, again, why having a moment like this is so cool. It's broadening people's, you know, horizons, hopefully. And yeah, all that to say, I thought I was a long shot. And instead, it ended up being a strength for me. Because I don't think Stephen had ever really considered it. either. I can't speak for him, but it was a wonderful enlightening conversation that we did have. And they probably respected you because what you were saying at that moment is this is so important to me, I want to get this right. I want to get it right. Right. And once they got past the initial

no, which they probably don't hear much. Yeah, I don't think that's a thing. I don't think that that is a thing for them. I was very grateful that it wasn't, it didn't become a hang up. Yeah. And that I wasn't labeled difficult because it's also very easy to become a difficult actress as well. But when standing up for yourself, it's not difficult. It doesn't make you difficult. It just makes you understand. It means you understand your boundaries.

Right. Yeah. And then you get a phone call in a nail salon that changes your life. Yes. Are you under the dryer when the phone rings? Oh, no. Foyles. Like, if you know anything about nail culture I was having, it's okay.

Don't worry. I help you. Okay. So if you have gel, gel. gel nail polish. It has to be removed with acetone and tinfoil. So they're cottonball, acetone, dupe, tinfoil wrap, and you have it all over. So you kind of look like a space alien for a minute. So I've got all these like long foils on my nails and I see an 818 number, which is a Los Angeles area code.

And I was like, hmm, I should probably take that. So the lady behind the counter was very kind and she like swiped for me and helped me pick it up. Hi, I have Steven Spielberg for you, but he's on a plane. So he drops to call, he'll call you back. And I was like, cool, that's nice. Hello, sir. What can I do for you? He was like, well, I just sort of was wondering if you would be my Anita.

I was like, well, that's casual. Yeah, and then we had a lovely chat about it. He was very clear to let me know that not only was I his choice, but I was the studio's choice. and they were very eager to get behind me and make me feel supported, which they did and still do to this day. And then he said, also don't tell anyone for like three months. Cool.

So I knew I was Anita, but the world wouldn't find out until January. And that phone conversation took place in October. Wow. Yeah. You called mom, though? Yes, I did. He did tell me I could tell my mother. Yeah.

And I did. I can't remember if I told her over the phone because at that point I was like convinced that like maybe I'm being bugged. Maybe it's a test. He's definitely listening in. Yeah, I did call her. I'd love to say that I was like, I'm going to take a night off from my show and get to the plane and tell my mother in person. That didn't happen. You're busy.

She had things to do. And what did your mom say when she got that news? given all you up, two of you have been through together and building your career and moving to dance and perform and all that. Yeah. What was that like for her. What I recall was she was like, oh, Lord. Well, that's very big.

I was like, I know. She was like, that's great, though. Like, I was like, no, honey, that's a big deal. My mother is not a stage mom. I wish I could tell you she was like the quintessential dance mom. She was. She was just the antithesis of it. said, here's your costumes, your makeup's in your bag, good luck. And then she would go in

grade papers while I, you know, became an independent young woman. It's best thing she ever did for me. I was going to say, that's probably why you ended up where you are. Yeah. Didn't wind you up too tight. No, not at all. She's always, she's always been, and to this day is very quick to be like, you sure you want to make that decision? That sounds kind of like, but I think she's, we found our way over the years. She lets me make my own mistakes. She'll always ask questions, but always supportive. I think that's the ideal mother-daughter relationship, to be honest. Absolutely.

And when she hears about things like an Oscar nomination or mom, I'm going to host SNL in a couple of weeks. Oh. Does she take that in stride? Yep, she strolls right through. Back to grading those papers. Yep. That's so awesome.

You know what? When my Oscar nom came in, she called, and all I heard, was, la. And she was in class. She was teaching. My mom's a public school teacher. And the kids in the back grow all whooping and shouting and cheering. So it was actually really cool.

She was like, I can't believe it. You did it. And that's when I started getting a little misty-eyed. So I was like, that is really cool. You know, I was like, I did do something. I took that. I earned that. It's lovely.

Was the idea, once you got through the celebration of getting the part, was the idea of taking on this beloved piece of art and song and dance and acting and West Side Story and everything that means to so many people. Did that feel daunting or were you just excited to get a new look at it and a modern take on it? Such a good question. I don't feel like at the time it didn't feel daunting. Don't get me wrong. I had my fairs year of run-ins with big fans of the film who were like, cool, cool, so don't bleep it up. And I was like, that's awesome.

Thank you so much for your support. I mean, come on. Imagine that. You know what I mean? I mean, not for nothing. While we were making the movie, you know, we would have some set visitors who would be like, you're amazing.

And also, Rita Moreno is always going to be my favorite. And I was like, that is so good for me. Exit Station. left. You take it in stride. You know, that's the thing. When you're reimagining an iconic character, it's, you, you have to acknowledge that there is an entire generation of people whom, my predecessor, the great iconic Rita

Moreno, will always be there, Anita. But that's the point of making this film in 2022 so that these characters can become beloved so that this story can become beloved for an entirely new generation, many of whom had never heard of West Side story. And quite frankly, didn't know who Rita Moreno was. And that's what's sad, in my opinion, because she changed the landscape

and she opened so many doors, not only for Latinas, but for women in this industry. She's not just someone who was a first. She's someone who won an Oscar and then was forced to become expansive with her career. Because unfortunately, Hollywood didn't just pick up the phone and said, here's 17 scripts, pick whatever you want to do. She had to navigate in a way that made her do this.

So yes, she is iconic in the fact that more people don't know who she is or that because of our film, she's now becoming even more well-known. That's both challenging for me to hear and also really exciting because they should know who she is. And in the same breath, I also get to be an Anita for our new generation. And for many Afro-Latinas, they get to be an Anita for our new generation. see themselves in this work. And that's why you reimagine things, because there's validity in every portrayal.

There has to be. Otherwise, a text is not classic. If you cannot reinterpret it and infuse new energy into it and new meaning, it's not classic. It was a one-hit wonder. And I don't think that's West Side Story. Well, that's the beauty of this film,

is that everyone finds the touch touch tones, there's tonight, there's America. Okay, I know where we are, but it's different. It's new. It feels modern. And I know you met with Rita. She sort of gave her blessing. She did. Pass the torch a little bit. That had to be nerve-wracking, I imagine.

I had a full-blown panic attack, and I hit under the bleachers. It was fine. We laugh about it now. On the day, though, I was so horribly embarrassed. I couldn't believe that was my reaction. But at the end of the day, especially given the moment I'm going, I was going to say going through and that to me has a negative

connotation to it and it's not negative at all but the moment that I'm in there was never a moment where this wasn't going to be a lot it is a lot and I'm very grateful to have someone like Rita on my side

she's been as supportive as she possibly could have been in my opinion in the best way that she knows how I've said it many times I think sometimes generational relationships especially between women can be challenging. Yeah. And she really came to the table and was supportive.

Yeah. And that's part of the beauty of this, your success and the great job you did. Part is that you do get to talk about her. And you do get to bring her into a new generation who should know her story. And what a story. My God. What a story. Have you been able to start a little friendship with her and hear about her experience in Hollywood

and how things are different now and how she hit that all, even after the success of West Side story? Yes, she's actually very candid about it. Very candid. I mean, she's 90 years old. She has absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain at this point. Rightfully so. That would be my attitude if I'd lived through all that she's lived through.

But I'm kind of in awe of how open she is. If I had been through some of the things that she'd been through, I don't know that I'd be as open. I might would be, what's the word, jaded? She's not. And I know I have benefited from time with her. And I've said we didn't actually speak about the character often, but she did share stories about her personal experience

and her lived experience as a Puerto Rican in the United States. And those were the stories that were actually most hopeful to me when I was creating Anita. That's fascinating. It wasn't about here's how I delivered this line. We're different than it does. There was never a world in which I was going to come in and duplicate what she had already done because what was the point?

It was great. It is iconic. She won't an Oscar for it. We've already awarded that portrayal. So I don't need to go in and recreate it. So I and that's part that was also part of my hesitation with auditioning for the part If I didn't have something new to bring to the character, what's the point? Because that's the thing about film.

It's for the legacy darling. Once it's on film, it lives forever and there's no escaping it. You can't get another take 10 years later. Once it's cut, it's done. It's that's what it is. So I had to really think hard. about whether I even wanted to walk in the room. And at the end of the day, I believe in doing things that scare you.

And it was, it wasn't, is, remains one of the scariest things I've ever done, just choosing to walk into the room. It also became very personal for me. Because of how I grew up, my mother raised me as a single parent. You know, my father is Puerto Rican. So he wasn't really around. I didn't have direct access to my Hispanic heritage. So only in my adulthood have I been able to seek out

community experiences in order to get to know this part of who I am. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think there are a lot of Latinos in this country, in our country, who face that. And our stories aren't the ones that are being told because we don't speak Spanish, and therefore we are considered less than at times. I'm very proud of the Spanish.

I speak in the film because I don't speak. That was also another reason that I was very nervous about taking on this character because I would never ever set foot on a set and try to execute a language poorly. Like I would never do it poorly because it's disrespectful to the culture. And whether or not I'm actually fluent in my real life, it's still my culture and these are still my people. And by God, we will represent well because that's how we move forward. So it was a very personal and kind of vulnerable experience for me to make this movie, but it's also one of the greatest experiences I've ever had because it gave me access.

It showed me how beautiful and wonderful and accepting this community can be, how accepting this community is. And I'm, let's be real, I'm an actor. is moved to New York City because we don't really have community sometimes, so you're trying to create it. I'm also queer, you know. Community is important because often people with this lived experience, we have to build our own for whatever reason. But I'm very grateful to have all of these identities and to have found community. And I know that that's a blessing that some people haven't found yet.

And to have, it's so validated by the response to the movie. They just love it. They love you. They love all the performances. The making a beloved musical or a movie into a movie can be treacherous. Some of them don't make that leap well. Yes. Was it gratifying to get the response that you all have received to this?

All the nominations and the critical praise and the response from people who go and see movies. Did that feel good? Because you can feel like you did a great job. And then it shows up me, wait a minute, we thought this was great, and you don't feel that way. But almost unanimously people have loved this movie. Does that feel good? Absolutely. Was that a leading question?

No. No. I was like, I've actually never been able to give just a blanket answer. The answer to the question is absolutely. I'm an actor who also knows what it's like to be panned. No. Oh, yes. It happens to the best.

I played the queen of disco, but I don't know that everyone enjoyed it. So I'm very aware of what it can be to make art that is not well received. And it can be debilitating, and it can really test your will, like, not your love for the craft, but just like, rejection's hard. Rejection on a massively public scale is even harder. criticism on a public scale is now that's a whole other fall of wax. Not everyone deals with it well. I don't think we're meant to, but if we wield it well,

it can become the thing that challenges us to be better. Also, art is subjective. You're not going to please everyone. So with West Side Story, for me, seeing all of this positive reception just makes me want to go, it could be done. I really don't like it when people tell me something can't be done

because I don't believe that. Yeah, I just, God, I used to have a saying, I love watching people eat humble pie because it's my favorite thing to prove them wrong. There's a part of me, like 19-year-old Ariana's like, no, tell me no, say it one more time, a little louder, in the back. Because it was my fire for such a long time. You know, starting out as a dancer, really learning to sing because I have not always been a vocalist.

And quite frankly, I wasn't always even a decent actress. The amount of work that goes into becoming, quote-unquote, a triple threat, the amount of work it takes to conjure a performance like Anita, because it is so multifaceted, to recreate an iconic work like West Side Story. And then to have it received well, it's just, I kind of relished in it. I'm not going to lie, because we've shown people it can be done and it can be done well. And it can be done by people who are not famous. Think about it. The biggest name in our films, Stephen Spielberg. But he chose folks who actually had the skill set to make his dream manifest.

And I think we did a pretty damn good job of it. pardon my French, but... That's changed now. The people in the movie are famous now. I have news for you. I don't know. I don't know. Fame is an illusion to me.

What is it? Emma Thompson says that fame is a byproduct of the work, and if you do the work really well, fame or glory or whatever you want to call it, it comes as a kind of mile marker that you're doing a really good job. So if that's how I know I'm doing a good job, okay. But I didn't get in this to be famous.

I got into it to make really good work and make people think. Well, you've done that for sure. Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Stick around to hear more from Ariana DeBose right after the break. Welcome back now more of my conversation with Ariana DeBose. We were joking about your long climb up, but I think your mom said you came out of the womb dancing. This was always, we were always going to end up here in one form or another. with you as a performer of some kind.

Yeah. And I love the story. I think you were in a chorus line in high school. Yeah. And you came here to see a chorus line and you looked around and you said, oh, these are my people, right? Like, this is where I need to be. Now I've got to figure out how to get back here. Yep.

What was it about being around Broadway? What was that experience like for you to say, okay, this is it. I know I'm still in high school, I'm a teenager, but I'm going to get back here. Oh, gosh. it was the energy. I'm a very energetic individual or I'm a spiritual individual and I believe that like energy is palpable.

You know, I always say like, well, if you got a black cloud around you, I can see it from a mile away and I'm going to walk the other direction. But when I came to see a chorus line, there was just an energy that I understood and that I felt like understood me. And also a chorus line,

it's about dancers. It's about a dancer's life. and trials, tribulations, success. At the end of the day, I was like, yeah, that's me. All I ever needed was the music and the mirror and a chance to dance for you. Granted, not that. That's kind of a direct quote, but it's the truth. And I saw myself.

I finally saw myself. And it wasn't about seeing necessarily skin color. It was just about seeing people who were doing the things I loved at the level that I believe. I believed I could do it at. And that's what's weird is, you know what? I was in high school. I was a really good dancer, and I could execute everything they were doing. Now, I don't know if I could do an eight show of the week.

That's what I was working up to. Right. But I knew I wanted to try to get there because I just needed to be with those people. And they are my people. They're still my people. Now I'm just trying to bring more of my people to the silver screen in a new way. That doesn't mean I always make musicals, but I do think that there's a lot of untapped talent in this community,

particularly in the dance community. Dancers make great actors. Sometimes you've got to give them the tools and an opportunity to see what happens. Evidence sitting right here. Yeah, kind of. And I'm really okay with that. I believe I'm the first so you think you can dance contestant to be nominated for an Academy Award.

those things do not sound like they should go together and yet they do and that's what's kind of cool I think not since the age of what Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers and Sid Jureyce and Rita Hayworth Lane Horn have we really applauded and celebrated folks who sing, dance and act equally well there was a reason that you know there was a golden age of musicals everybody I had to do them. You weren't in a movie in Hollywood if you couldn't sing, dance, and act really well at the same time. I mean, even Bing Crosby, come on. So it's fascinating.

I did find myself wondering about three years into my career. I'm like, why? Why did that change? What is it about dance that isn't valuable anymore? I really believe you can see into a person's soul if you just see how they move. You know, I can tell if somebody's shy. Or if somebody's outgoing or if somebody's, you know, not on up and up, just by how you move.

Body language is so telling and dances even more so. I don't know. Absolutely. Now there's no question. And then you got, you did get back here after, so you think you can dance. Go to college for a minute, break your ankle or twisted or something. Oh, it was really bad. I was with my mentor, Charlotte Dobois and Terrence Mann the other night.

And they were like, how long did you last in college? And I was like, a whopping three months. But that was an urgency to get here, right? You didn't want to wait that long. I didn't. Yeah. Well, and I think so you think was like a big wake-up call for me. It reminded me I wanted to do more than just dance.

And it gave me that taste of what it feels like or what it felt like to be a professional. And I was like, well, I've tasted it. I must have the entire entree. So I just didn't see the point in waiting. I'm also a very blunt person. I don't know if you can tell that about me. So I just did what I needed to do much to my mother's chagrin. But it worked out, so that's plus.

I should say. What were those early years here? We were trying to find your place in Broadway. Find your people, find that community. What was it like? Oh, gosh, messy. Yeah. It was messy.

But I mean messy in the way of like, I was just trying. all the things. Like, I'd take all the classes, I'd go to all the auditions, even the ones I was painfully wrong for some highly embarrassing moments. Like, at the time, I had no business going to a Warren Carlyle tap audition, because guess who didn't tap? This girl. Like, why am I auditioning for Miss Saigon? Don't know, but I tried it because I was just trying to learn and be seen and find an opportunity. I was also growing up in real time. I say this frequently. My colleague, Rachel Zegler, she got a lot really quickly. At the time we made this movie, she was 18 years old.

You know, when I first got to New York, I was just starting out, you know, on Broadway. And I was very young, too. And I grew up in real time in front of the entire Broadway community. And I was very lucky that this is a very forgiving community. Rachel's doing it on an international scale. And I don't think that we've really given her an opportunity to be a child. Not necessarily a child, but a young adult. Young adults make mistakes.

We have not been an incredibly forgiving society in the last few years. And I'll say it. I hate that for her. She's a good woman. She will be a formidable force. And thank God she does have a thick skin. She's sensitive, but she has a thick skin to take some of the things that have come her way. I'm very grateful that I didn't have to go through it.

And I think it's a shame that she does. Is that that decade difference again for you that you've got the strength to know and put it in perspective and say this is not the end of the world that somebody said something bad about my performance or whatever? You help her along with it a little bit? I do my best. Yeah. I absolutely do my best. She knows I love her very much. And we're very family-oriented, all of us.

If there is a need, we show up for each other, absolutely. I don't know if it's the decade of experience. I will say my decade of experience has been to my benefit. And I just think it's a different time. That's what's really wild. You know, generationally, you got Rita, you got me, and you have Rachel. And it's a, the world we live in is a different thing than what Rita was coming up in. It's a different time than what even my memory.

mentor Charlotte Dumois had to deal with when she was coming up in the Broadway world. With technology, social media, how quickly we're all moving, a global pandemic. Time moves a heck of a lot quicker than I think we acknowledge. Change happens faster. Not all of it is good, but much of it is necessary. And the grace that we afford for each other, I don't know if it's been in abundance, you know. But I think there was a time where you could make mistakes, and we acknowledge that mistakes you could still learn from them. I don't know if we value that as a truth anymore.

And that's a very hard thing to watch, and it's also a very hard thing to live in. I won't lie, I'm a very measured person these days. I used to be a very impulsive person. I think, you know, with age and experience, of course you think before you speak, but I really think before I speak, I'm a queer Afro-Latina. Everything I've said in this interview has been chosen because I want you to hear it and I want you to know that it's the truth. It's my truth.

But you can't just say anything anymore. Cancel culture is real. And that's the reality for anybody coming in to the entertainment industry right now. it's not easy. And there's a strange glee in people who seek out people to cancel or they enjoy the pile on.

It does feel like a sport. Right. And it's an Olympic arena. I do not care to be in. Because there's a person on the other end of it. I think we forget that celebrities are human. Influencers,

by the way, are influencers. Celebrity is a different thing. being an actor is a different thing from either one of those things. And then being a human, well, it should be a commonality amongst us all. I don't know that it is anymore. Yeah, we see it in different ways. It comes whoever you are. If you have any public attention, you're going to hear it for sure.

We are across the street from the Rogers Theater. Yeah. A little show called Hamilton. Tiny. Did pretty well. Yeah. From what I read in the trades. It didn't suck, apparently.

No, no, that's a good. You should put that on the marquee. Hamilton, it doesn't suck. But your original cast. I am. Did you know at the outset back at the public that you were on to something special before the rest of the world caught onto it? Oh, yeah. I don't think there's a single person who was a part of that original company who didn't understand from even the reading.

or the workshop that this was special. It's impossible to calculate the full impact of this piece. It really was like a hurricane, you know. I, you know, being in the ensemble, it gave me sort of a purview. I watched my friends and my colleagues become rock stars. I learned a lot from their experience. You know, what with great joy and great success comes great challenge as well. So it's a balancing act.

It was a balancing act for them. And those were lessons that I've taken with me along this journey. I don't know why I must continue you to use my head this way. This and that. This and that. Oh, my God. But it's that, there's that song in Hamilton in the eye of a hurricane. There was quiet.

There was never any quiet for Hamilton. but it was a fascinating experience. It changed the world in the way. I'm really glad that I'm a part of the family. You know, it's always, it's an honor and a privilege to be a part of something like that. It also taught me that it is imperative that you know you're worth and you do not accept discounts. And that's probably the greatest lesson I learned from my time in Hamilton. Was that from watching what everyone was going through personally in that time?

Yeah, and what we collectively went through, you know, I think there were so many different challenges that come along with making art. There was so much pressure on everyone, you know, for Lynn, for Leslie, for C-Jack, for Renee, people, all of us. Like, there was never a moment that we all didn't feel the pressure. Our creative team felt the pressure. because when you are doing something that's popular, then everybody's chomping at the bit to see what you're doing.

It was like a really well-kept secret for a long time. And then once we gave it to the world that the public wasn't a secret anymore. But then when you do have a group of creators that are truly firing on all cylinders, they're at the top of their game, the game actually becomes, how do we make it better?

how do we continue to compete with ourselves so that we're upping the ante serving the piece we're not gratuitously telling this story we are making a work of art you know it's challenging it's hard but I can tell you something else from great

discourse comes great art and Hamilton is that I don't know that there was another way that we could have created that musical you know it's What I remember, it was a perfect, wonderful, and extremely challenging experience that changed all of our lives. There's not a single person who went through the Richard Rogers who didn't come out changed one way or another. What was it like in those days?

I remember I saw it in 2016, I guess. And in the afternoon, it was like Woodstock out here. I know. Sixth Street. They had to shut down the street, and there were people waiting to see you guys. come in and come out at the stage door. And that was every single day. And it just got bigger and bigger and bigger as it went.

What was that like as an actor to have that kind of fan base and that kind of response to it? You know, it was actually really cool, because I can tell you this. I only ever feel like I saw crowds like that for, you know, huge movie stars at award shows. Right. Or, you know, like, oh, my God, Angelina and Brad are here. They're doing the premiere of Mr. Mrs. Smith and like droves of humans show up. And then suddenly all of us, 46th Street is shut down because people want to like enter the lottery for Hamilton. A Broadway show?

My gosh! You know, it was cool because it brought such pride and joy and validity to what we do, you know. I don't know if there's a great phrase for it. I don't think that there is, but I think when you look at Broadway and you look at Hollywood, public perception perhaps. Right. You know, Broadway doesn't receive the same consideration sometimes.

But Hamilton changed the game a bit because it reminded folks just how powerful theater is and how mainstream it can be. Commercial. The political implications for Hamilton were absolutely astounding. I've never really. seen so many public servants, politicians, some of whom I personally agreed with, and some of them that didn't showed up to our show. But they received its message. That's what's cool. When you can

penetrate, that's not a good word. When you can, oh, it's so bad. You don't use that. Point taken. But when you can have public servants, true politicians show up to your show and receive its message and it goes past party lines, that's cool. And we just made a little Broadway show, a little skit that, you know, Lynn thought would be a great idea. He has good ideas sometimes. One of the few things in life that lived up to the height. My mom saw it at the public. Yeah. You have to, I said, I'll be the judge of that.

And then, like, five minutes, oh, my God, what am I watching? And like you say, you could feel the page turning. Like, we're moving in a new direction now. You have to live up to the standard. Yeah. Or at least strive for it. Right. Well, and that's a thing.

I think it's acknowledging realistic expectations, right? It's like, what can we achieve? And then how can we push our boundary even further? and how do I get there? How do we get there as a group? And how do we leave no men behind? That's an even greater question. And I think ultimately that's what we did.

I mean, the proof is in the pudding. The show's still running even through a global pandemic. And by the way, the pandemic is still going on, guys. It is. It is. Totally vaccinated. Ballyaxed. Boosted.

All of it. I had it all. You've gone on to such great things, obviously, since Hamilton, including the prom. Yeah. Which was so fun. I saw the show on Broadway, and the movie, again, lived up to the show somehow. Good. And you were just great in it, and there you are again.

You're talking about these little, and now you're with Merrill and Nicole Kidman. Okay, we're doing that now. Yeah. Was that a fun experience for you? Oh, of course it was fun. It was terrifying in the best way. But it's also my first movie-making experience in Los Angeles, in Hollywood. So that was different for me.

Like I said, I'm an energy person, so try to figure out the energy in a very new town. In addition to, you know, not flipping out that, you know, Nicole Kidman is like, you want to carry it? Going well for me. Or Ms. Merrill, you know, being Miss Merrill generally excellent. We're playing scenes with Carrie Washington, who actually was very much the representation I had. First time I saw her in Save the Last Dance,

beautiful black girl with a fro, I was like, that's me! You know? Yeah. And then I cut to, she's playing my mother, and we're playing a very important scene and taking on some challenging subject matter and representing both the good and the... I won't say good and bad, but the possibilities of a coming out experience.

That was really special to me. So, yes, did I love working with all these starry names? Absolutely. But those scenes and doing that work, that's why that was special. It's got to be the way you talk about Carrie Washington to think that you are that person. Oh, God. That you're that person for some young actor right now. does that feel overwhelming?

Great? Well, it is great. Because I know who I am. And I think I'm a decent human. And I think we need more decent humans to be role models, folks who are aware that people are looking at them. Maybe even a few people who choose their words wisely. that it's exciting.

You know what I want to show people, young people especially, they have possibility and they can do anything. That's what I want to show them. You better work for it because nobody owes you anything and they certainly not going to hand you nothing. But you work really hard and you challenge yourself and you're actually nice to people. What a novel idea!

that you actually can achieve your dreams. I mean, I surely never actually thought I'd be Academy Award nominee, Mariana DuBose. But that happened. So if that can happen for me, there's no reason that your dreams can't come true. It's all about what you choose to do. And putting in the work.

putting in the work. That's the thing. There's a theme here. Like, again, hello overnight success, but also the work. Right. Let's not forget the work. It doesn't. Well, what is it that? There's that saying. The dream is free. The hustle is sold separately. And I'm like, my, word, they should put that in a textbook and sell that. Teach that in schools. Please, and thank you. It's true. I was like, that is actually the truth. You want to, like, debate what's in the history books. Go for it because it's an ongoing thing that we could talk about for hours. But the truth is, the dream is free. The hustle is sold separately. So what you want to do? You want to take the road less traveled, which is way more interesting, or you want to stay in the lane that other

people have defined for you. I personally just don't believe in letting society define me. It's not my ministry, but I think people deserve the opportunity to define themselves. And you've done that. And I love that you say you don't like to do the same thing twice, which raises the question. What's next? I know you've got a lot in the pipeline right now. But as you look out with this new platform that you've earned, what else is out there? What are you looking at?

It's a vast horizon. It is. actually. There's a lot you could do. I know. I said it jokingly, but I was like, no, it actually is a truth. And that's something I'm adjusting to, having choice. I never really felt like I had choice. And now I seem to have an abundance of it. And I'm very excited by it.

There are many things I could choose to do. And I like to do many things at the same time. I am a triple direct. I'm good at doing things at the same time. I don't know, maybe I'll, maybe I'll create something. How about that? Okay. Very vague.

Very vague. But I don't know. I believe in building things. I don't like, I'm telling you a lot of things I don't like. I don't like established structures. And I like building my own structure. So I'm interested in any, in all things that allow me to be. build something from myself.

Who knows? Maybe I'll start a production company or partner with producers who rep me create something the way I want to do it. Because I'm going to tell you something. Sometimes I don't think people do it the right way. Not just like, maybe I don't think they make musical as well. Maybe I'll make a musical the way I want to make a musical. Granted, that doesn't apply to West Side Store. It's absolutely brilliant. Good catch. Check it out. March 2nd, Disney Plus and HBO Max. question mark. But no, I just, I want to do many, many things. I'm 31. And while, you know,

I do still believe that dancers have a certain kind of shelf life because, you know, these knees are really starting to let me know that they're there. I do want to continue to do some dance-based work, but I also, I really want to act. And, you know, I don't, I don't believe in labeling myself. I'd love to continue to do dramatic work. But I also, my mother and I watched the Pelican brief growing up. I'm like, where's the Pelican brief? Where's, you know, my version of a Nancy Myers film? Like, why can't I have that glorious kitchen from something's got to give?

You know, I don't know. I just think it could be really fun to do that. But also, maybe I want to make music. Maybe I want to come back to the stage. Maybe I want to, you know, create my own. show. I don't know. And I'll tell you something right now. I'm not going to make any decisions

right now because the moment I'm in is too wonderful to miss a moment of it. So I'm just going to be present. But when I have something to share, I'll share it. You have great perspective on this.

I try. What do I do with this? What's my next move? You're like, let me just enjoy it. Well, I think we can all agree that One of the greatest words I've ever used is no. And it continues to be a really great word. I think more people should use it. But sometimes you have to hold your space.

And I don't like it when people rush me, but I will always be respectful of their time. The woman who made Hollywood history by telling Stephen Spielberg no. Oh, that's neat. I don't know that he's going to like that. I don't know. Stick around to hear more of my conversation with Ariana DeBose right after a quick break. Welcome back.

Now, the rest of my conversation with Ariana DeBose. You mentioned growing up your mom, with your mom's single mother in North Carolina. What was that like as you showed talent at a pretty young age? What was your childhood like? I actually, I loved my childhood. I was really lucky that my mom and my grandma very much identified. They're like, oh, she feels like a dancer. And then they supported that.

And, you know, they put me in ballet tap jazz when I was three. And then when my mom graduated college and got her first job, we moved to New Bern, North Carolina, because I was born in Wilmington. The first thing she did was find me another dance studio and supported me in the best way that she could. You know, I'm very lucky. I had a childhood that was filled with angels that showed up to support me and my mom.

And, you know, being a first-time teacher in a small rural North Carolina town, she'd make a lot of money. So we figured out ways, you know, that I could dance. The dance owner, the owner of my dance studio, Dory Light of Venner, And she scholarship me for a part of it because she recognized my talent, realized how hard my mom was working, and helped me continue to study. And when I moved to Raleigh, Mom got a better job. So we moved to Raleigh and with Carolina. Again, she found another dance studio for me.

and I became a dance assistant, like an assistant dance teacher, and helped earn hours towards my tuition so that I could continue to dance. And it gave me ownership of my education too. But I'm really lucky that those angels showed up for me and that my mom's always been supportive. My entire family, you know, my aunt, Christy, like, my great Aunt Joyce, like my grandfather, like everyone really has showed up for me in different ways. I'm incredibly grateful.

I think people forget that children are raised by a village. And I'm very much a product of said village. And I think that's a good thing. Lots of teachers, lots of Southern folk, you know. Isn't it at moments like this where you think about all those people? You're going to meet the Oscars on the red carpet. They're going to say your name. And the dance teacher who gave you a partial scholarship helped to get you there.

Your mom, obviously, your grand... All those people nudged you to that place. Well, that's the thing. You think about, like, awards and whatnot. And I'm just so aware of it, I wouldn't have anything of what I have without those folks. And that's the reality, you know. my childhood provided formative experiences, you know, without Elizabeth Dresler, you know, who was running the program that cast me as Aida in Aida,

and that was my first major musical in North Carolina as a high schooler. Because of that program, I met Eric Scato, who became my mentor, who was working on Broadway at the time. I may not be in theater, you know, without listening. saying yes I'm going to produce a chorus line. I would have never met Charlotte Dubois, who is my mentor to this day, you know, without Christy Curtis running CC and Company Dance Complex, who is literally responsible for my dance education, I wouldn't be as versatile a dancer as I am because she's the one that brought in basically half of the choreographers

who were already on so you think you can dance. Like she brought them in to teach us, you know, without that type of exposure, without those angels, they are my angels. I wouldn't have what I have or have the background that I have. I would not have been armed for the life that I am living. It is my life. I'm very much living it. One shallow breath at a time. But community is important.

And my community may not look like everyone else is, but it's mine, and I'm proud of them. I'm proud of them. I'm proud of my experiences. Proud of my background, and I am deeply proud of who I am. Well, I hope you get the chance to say the words that you rehearsed on your grim floor. That's very scary. It's a very scary thought, Willie.

Oh, no! Putting it in the universe. Let's just get it out there. I said it you didn't. It is such a pleasure to talk to you. You've earned this, and congratulations on all your success. Thank you. It's so fun to watch.

Thank you so much. Thanks for the time. My big thanks again to Ariana for a great conversation, and congratulations again on that Academy Award. And thanks to all of you for listening again this week. If you want to hear more of my conversations with our guests every week, be sure to click follow so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune in to Sunday today every weekend on NBC. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast.