Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - Ava DuVernay

Episode Date: February 2, 2020

It was only 8 years ago at the Sundance Film Festival that Ava DuVernay finally decided to become a full-time filmmaker. In this week’s “Sunday Sitdown,” Willie Geist talks to the director and producer about that big career shift and establishing herself as a groundbreaking force in Hollywood with Oscar-nominated films like Selma and 13th. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks, as always, for clicking and listening along. Got a great one for you this week. Ava Duvernay, the Hollywood Powerhouse, in every sense of the term. She writes, she produces, she directs, she does everything you can do, except for appear in the movies. Her most recent work is the Netflix series, highly acclaimed series, When They See Us, about the Central Park Five case in New York City in 1989.

She also, of course, was the director of Selma, which was nominated for Best Picture a few years back. She directed a wrinkle in time, Oprah Winfrey's movie that had a budget over $100 million, which was a new record, a new standard. She made history as an African-American woman producing a film like that. Ava also directed the documentary 13th, which was nominated a couple years back for an Academy Award. Her latest project is a series called Cherish the Day for the Oprah Winfrey Network. I'll let her explain the premise of the series. She produces it. She created it.

She didn't direct it, though, which, as you will hear, was hard for her to take her hands off because she's so hands-on. And she has created and produced and directed every piece of work she's done since she got into the business, which brings us to the most interesting part, I think, of her story. She's only been doing this for a few years. She won an award as a director at the Sundance Film Festival seven years ago, and that launched her career. She had a PR agency for a long time. She worked with actors. She walked famous actors down the red carpet and did their interviews for them. And then she took a look on some of these film sets when she was around movies and said, hey, I think I can do this.

And man, has she been able to do it ever since? Ava took me to her favorite tea shop here in New York City. She's very L.A. based, as you'll hear. She's more L.A. than she is in New York, but she's got her spots in New York City. And she loves tea. So she brought me to her tea spot. We did a pot of her ginger milk tea, which I have to say, I'm not a big tea drinker, but was excellent. She's very detail-oriented, as you will also hear. She's moving the pot around and getting the cups in the right place as a director.

And the other cool detail is her entourage consisted of her mother. She brought her mom to the shoot. Talk about winning somebody over. I'm like, you're here with your mom. I'm already all in. Here's our conversation with Ava DuVernay on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. All right, Ava, thanks for doing this. Thank you for having me.

Can we start by you telling me what we're drinking here? This is ginger milk tea. Okay. And I don't really drink a lot of coffee because I'm already like this. You don't need any more. You know, it's going to unhealthy levels of energy with the coffee. So I try to do tea. And I like creamy things.

Sure. So it's, want to try? Yeah. Can we? Are you put your pinky out? No. Pinky? No.

That's not my. Okay. We'll make sure that was. It's hot. That's nice. It's nice, right? For a rainy day, snowy day. That is nice.

And this is your spot, right? This is my spot. How did you find this spot? I was down here working one day and I wanted tea, so I googled. Like, this is maybe six or seven years ago. And since then, I've brought so many people here, and people are like, this is a great hidden spot. The people walk by and never see. I said to you, I've walked by here probably a thousand times my life, never even noticed it, let alone walk in.

So thanks for letting me come to your spot. Good. Good. One of my New York spots. It's the spot. New York's not really my city. Really? We're in L.A. Well, you're from L.A. I'm from L.A. and I just feel more comfortable not here.

Is it the noise, the claustrophobia, the weather? What is it? All of it. I had a really hard time making when they see us here. I was here for about six months. Yeah. And it really, the city works on you. I have a lot of respect for people who love it here and who thrive here.

It's just not me. I had the opposite effect. It really brought me to a place. I mean, yes, I was working on a very challenging story. Right. But, yeah, on top of that, the city is just very in your face. It's always there. Is it?

Yeah. You get on the subway, you get a cab, it's always, it's never a, It's never a smooth ride where you're going. It's never giving you your home. No, no space. There's no quiet time in your car in the 405. No, exactly. That's what you need.

See? Yeah. See, you know when you're talking to the California? First thing, you mentioned the freeway numbers. We feel more number. Okay. That was for you. I'm in New York.

That was for you. So let's talk about, we've got so much to talk about. Your run the last few years has been like bananas. But let's talk about the current project. Cherish the day with Own. It has a really cool concept, which is one love story per season. Yes. Every hour is a day in the life of this couple. Tell me about the concept when you dreamed it up.

I wanted to deep dive into, you know, especially in these really challenging times, just a love story. I wanted to play with the idea of how could I do it in a bit of a different way. I love the link letter films before sunrise before sunset. And these are the movies, a trilogy of movies that just take a couple when you see them over the years on one day. And so I wanted to say, well, how do you, could you apply that to black people? Could you apply it to brown people? Could you apply it to Samoan people, native people? I want to see more kinds of people fall in love. It feels like I see just a certain kind of person in a love story. And a love story that's not heightened, that's not set against something big and epic going on.

Just the quiet, everyday moments. So cherish the day. It's just cherish what happens on a particular day. And it's not necessarily an anniversary or a big day in the life of these relationships. It's just the little moments that you remember that stay with you that change how you feel about the other person. So that was the idea. And it's interesting because it's a slow unfolding of a show. It's eight episodes, but the episodes jump.

So the first episode is the first day they meet. The second episode is a year later. The third episode is three months later. And so it jumps around. It just kind of locates the big days in the life of the couple. And that's, to me, I told you, I watched the first episode. The beauty of it is, it is just little stuff, but it adds up to something big by the end of the hour. Hopefully.

There's no big moment in that first episode. There's no, you know, experience. or whatever else you want on TV show. But it's like it analyzes a relationship really nicely. So when you, obviously at this point, you've got your choice of the things you want to do, the projects you want to take on. You're doing a lot of things at once. What was it about this where you said this thing is worth my time?

I'm going to get behind this. You know, I've been working on Selma and 13th and when they see us and all of these projects that are very politically muscular and historically kind of, you know, rigorous in terms of the research. and really building the architecture of these narratives that are really complex. And so I wanted to delve into something that was just more intuitive, more organic, or about love and personal relationships. And those things are complex as well, but just to allow it to unfold in a way where I didn't have to kind of do hard research on everything.

Right. You know, I have to take on the court of public opinion. Sure. Just, you know, something a little lighter, but also something that means something to me, which is to illuminate all of the facets of life of marketing. marginalized people. And I think our personal lives are just as important as our political lives, our cultural lives. A lot of times I've asked to talk about my identity and, you know, my history or the current political climate. But also what goes on behind closed doors, I think is important

to examine as well. And so that was the idea behind it. And then the audience for own, I have my show Queen Sugar on there. And so I've come to know that audience and know what they like and really feel like I wanted to serve them. You know, it's, it overindexes with women, a lot of women of color who are, you know, doing beautiful things in their own lives. I think it's important to, you know, not only uplift folks who are politicians or directors or superstars, but the women who are really superstars in our lives day to day, the moms and the wives and the sisters. So all that went into the stew of chairs today. We were talking a minute ago about how you created this, you're producing it, but you're not directing it.

That's different for me. It is a different thing, right? Is that difficult for you? It is really difficult for me because I guess, I think this show really taught me that, Ava, you are at control freak. You know, I really am. I never really thought of myself that way, but I think as part of a writer-director-producer, I'm involved in every aspect.

Right. So to have to take one off was challenging for me. But it's just a different way of working. You know, I wrote it and produced it but didn't direct it. It's kind of like I can't direct something and write something without producing it. I can't, you know, produce it and direct it without writing it. It becomes difficult. And so that was one of my challenges on a wrinkle in time.

I didn't produce it and I didn't write it, but I directed it. So that was the first time that I was working with material that I couldn't control every aspect of it. It's different, yeah. But, I mean, you've got the concept for this show. You've got it up here. Yeah. And then you sort of hand it off to somebody. Yeah.

And then you come back later and see it. Well, I'm still producing it for them. Right. They're in there every day. Every day. Every day. The actors and doing the costumes and all that. And that's usually, it was really hard for me to be on set.

I'd be there and I'd be like, don't you want to just? Well, I think the cup should be. Or, oh, his hair. Oh, I can't do that. Okay. Let me just stand over here because that's a director's job. Yes. So, yeah, it was interesting.

Had you bite your tongue a little bit? I did. I did. That's got to be hard. And you know what? I just didn't want to make people uncomfortable. So I would just come. check in, see everyone's doing, and then leave.

You know, because it wasn't for that, it was for me, because I'd be, like, jumping out of my skin, wanting to do things. So I left people to do their jobs. And I think so. The piece is, you know, has a different flavor to it. It's not directed by me, but it's written by me and produced by me. So it has some elements of me, but it has elements of the other directors who I handpick. And so it's lovely in that way.

Well, I watch you direct this tea service a minute ago, so I know what it's like to be directed. directed by Ava. You're like, nope, this is going on here, this is going on here, good, okay. You just want a symmetrical shot, I mean. Fly out the other teapop, get it out of here. Right. One of the other cool things about Cherish was that you achieved gender equity on the production team. Yes, yes, yes.

How big a deal is that to you? How important, how significant? Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons why that show, another reason why it was important beyond kind of exploring the nuances of love and, you know, with a different face is the way you make the way. the work. And that's something that I've just been really focused on over the last years that I've had more. You know, I guess power in the situation, being able to dictate who's in the space and who's working. Making sure that women are being interviewed, people of color are in the room and getting opportunities. You know, I think it's really easy for folks to say, and I don't blame people for saying, oh yeah, I'm going to bring my guys.

Right. Because they want to get the job done, and they want to do a good job for me. So these are the guys I know are going to get it done for you. you. And I learned that through one of my DPs who said, I just want to do the best job for you. And I know that these guys who I always work with will do the best job for me because I know them. And so I want that, but I also can't just be looking at the same guys forever. We have to change. We have to diversify. We have to open up the doors to who can do the best job for me. Unless you give people the opportunity to do that, you'll never know. And so little by little over

the course of all my projects, I've been pushing that. and pushing that with the goal of one day achieving gender parity. There are equal number of men and women on sets. And for people at home who don't know what that, it's very, very rare to have those equal numbers. You know, most of the time I walk onto sets and it's all men and it's usually white men. And so to have a space where equal numbers of men and women, you know, starting near parity on people of color as well of all kinds,

that's the kind of projects we want to make. where everyone can stay out their hands on it. So I think more people in our industry want to do that than don't. Just don't know how. Sometimes it gets uncomfortable because some people have to move around. It's like a musical chair. But it's about time we do it. And so on anything that I work on, you know, it's a part of the requirement of me doing it.

And so we achieved it on this show and I'm thrilled with it. We actually had a few more women than men. Oh, it was over the 50s? It was a little bit over. Yeah. Good for you. So how do we get to the point that, Ava, where I don't ask you that question. like it's a big deal like wow you got to 50% how do you change that in Hollywood it's going

for a while it's going to have to become standard become normal until then we have to keep asking about it you know I don't mind that but they keep asking about it keep talking about it keep pushing it but until the day where the question's uninteresting and there's not an interesting answer and there's no process to it's just happening then we have to keep talking about it is the lesson that there are those women there are all those people color out there who can do the jobs you're just not finding them that's the thing that the myth is that, yeah, we can't find them. Yeah, they're not out there, but it's just not true.

It's just not true. They're there. And so, yeah, you always want to train more people, but they are there. They're trained. They're capable. They're ready. They're experienced. They're just scattered across all these productions where there might be one woman in this department or two women on this production. So when you start to empower them all to be together, you know, you get really beautiful results. So that's one of the pieces of this puzzle of Cherish the Day. I watched the frames, I watched the show, and I know that it was truly made by all kinds of people. I think that comes out in the sauce when you watch it. I saw a really cool crew shot, too, where it was on the movie.

Any crew shot I've seen before, it was all the ladies. Yeah, all the ladies. It was amazing. Yeah, and it was great. All the men on the set, you know, supported us in doing that. There was even a guy there. One of our women wasn't able to be there. So, and he was a part of her department.

So he was in, there's one guy in the picture holding a sign saying, I represent such and So, no, it was a great set, and we're looking to just continue, not just innovating in front of the camera and the stories that we tell, but the way that we tell them, you know, because Hollywood is a system and, you know, some things need to change. You mentioned Queen Sugar, also on Own. Yes. What is the own experience like working with and for Oprah and the people at Own? Why is that a good platform for you? Yeah, I never forget that Own is the Oprah Winfrey Network. Yeah.

She isn't like the whole thing, but I do. Because wow, it's a network named for her that abides by the principles that she prioritizes. And it is a place where I can do something on Queen Sugar where I said, I want to hire only women directors. I want to try to kind of balance the scales of what's going on. And so we did that five years ago, and it's really, really changed things in our industry in terms of pushing other showrunners and other networks to do the same. So you can really see the sea change of how folks respond to that challenge.

and on this with now going deeper beyond directors but into the whole crew. So those are the kinds of things that you had need a studio and a network that's going to be supportive of. And they were hands down, you know, ready to do whatever they could to make that happen. You've obviously worked with Oprah before. Is she the kind of person who will watch a rough cut or watch it and give you notes on it or is she not that hands off? She trusts you at this point. Hands off. Yeah.

Hands off. And it's always been that. Early on. So with Queen Sugar, the way that it can. came about was we had made Selma and I had gone to one of her homes to relax. I was like, dude, it's Oprah's house. Someone said, not house, one of them. All right, one of the houses.

And it's awesome and it's just comfortable and lovely. It's not ostentatious. It's just cozy and lovely. And by the bedstand was a book, Queen Sugar. I thought, oh, that somebody's reading that. kept going next day it was like a little closer to the bed next day it was like on the bed so I said at breakfast there's a book called quencher it's moving around my suite and she said oh yeah I think you should read it and see if you want to make it and so I read it and I thought of a way to do it and so

we started making the show and I put the first script it was an adaptation of the book I'd never done that before like this is the book in script form she's like yeah I thought you were going to do something more like and I was like oh okay so I took it and I had voodoo because it's a it's a door right so voodoo racedus and like action a car crash I gave it to her she was like yeah didn't uh didn't think you were gonna do that no pull it back a little bit so I just I did one third time I remember saying you know it just doesn't work I can't do it let me see if this work so I made my my next one and she said that's it so that's the show you And that's really the last time she gave me any notes.

Really? Once I hooked into what it was and it felt right, it's been five years of real beautiful creative leeway. And I've experienced that on Charis Today, too. So it's been beautiful. We've also got a track record now. I think she trusts you. That it's going to turn out pretty well.

I think so. I think so. But, you know, I never would hesitate to receive a call with a note. I always ask her. Tell me, tell me what you're thinking. So I look forward to. that day when it ever comes. So Queen Sugar was born in one of Oprah's houses.

It was. That's amazing. You won't say much, but one of her houses. That's one. One. This has been a crazy year for you with when they see us as well, which you mentioned spending six months here in the cold and the rain and everything else in New York. I hate to bring that subject.

I'll begin for you. But it turned out to be such an extraordinary place of work. We really did. Thank you. That's a big one to take on. You want to get it right. You want to treat their stories the right way. Why did you want to tackle that subject?

You know, I felt like there was something. First of all, I was very personal when I met the men. The first thing was the case was fascinating. Yeah. And when I met the men, it became emotional for me, not impersonal, because you look in their eyes and you hear their stories, and you want the truth to be known. And there was a lot of truth that had been obscured all these years.

But then on top of that, I felt like as I look at all of it, the macro of that story really addresses all the parts of the criminal justice system. And if you could tell it in a way that was sweeping, you would be able to share with people how it feels to be arrested and profiled, how it feels to go into a precinct, unprotected, not knowing your rights and the kinds of things that are done in the precinct that may not be on the up and up, that may not be a part of what our Constitution says it should be. The judicial process and how it favors folks with money who might even be guilty, more than people who don't have money who might very well be innocent. you know, the incarceration experience, what that's like for people, you know, living, breathing people, human beings, and the way that we treat them in this country, out of sight, out of mind, horrible treatment.

And then post-incarceration, once you've done your time, how you still are stripped of rights, you haven't done your time because you can't vote, can't get a job, can't get a student loan, can't rent an apartment, I mean, you're still in a certain kind of societal jail. And so all of that can be conveyed through the story. And so that became really exciting to me. And so all those layers just went into a five-year process of trying to just dig it out day by day. And so the response to that, you know, the level of detail and passion that we put into it, the response has been in kind.

Yeah. It's been proportional. Yeah. And so that's the greatest honor for an artist to what you put out comes back to you. And it's felt by people. And so it's been a great honor to have made it. I was reading a story that you tell of hoping you got it right for them first and foremost, and them seeing it.

Yeah. And turning to you with tears in their eyes and saying, you did it. Yeah. That's our story. Yeah, that was a nerve-wracking day. I'm sure. I'm sure. You know, Netflix flew them out to L.A., and they had one of their small screening rooms,

and it's a very intimate screen room I chose to assess two rows. So they were in the front row, and I was in the back row. So basically, through the whole five hours, I watched. them watch the movie and I was terrified because I could only see the backs of their heads really and they would shift or they would move or they would then oh the sniffles oh a little crying here oh you know maybe a little shifting that felt angry at certain times like they were reliving it and at the end of the time they rose and they turned to me with the light of the projector still on their faces and they're just in tears they learn things about each other that they didn't know

especially about Corey Wise and the final episode and they just all gathered around me all five of them and just hugged me and we just cried together and so what else is better than that? I mean there was nothing else

that could have no review, no award, no nothing that was better than that moment and that happened early so everything else was just like a beautiful lip cream. That last episode, the whole series was great,

that last episode, it felt to me, I don't know, felt to you, was like, a level above, even everything else. It was just, I think, because it was so focused on Corey and one character, and you did. You got the experience of what happens to a man in prison, especially a man who knows he shouldn't be in prison.

How did you approach his story in particular? Well, when I first sat down with him years ago, he said, you know, before we talk, this is not a story about Central Park 5. It's a story about four plus one because they had a different experience than I did. Yeah. And no one wants to tell that story. And I said, well, I want to tell the story. Tell it to me. So he did over the years. And it was, you know, a heartbreaking, soul-crushing story, but one that also is heart-expanding and soul-lifting because he survived. And he's sitting before you and he's telling you the story of his survival and what he did and how he did it and how it all felt. And so my goal was to somehow reconstruct that as best I can, keeping his dignity intact. I mean, part of it was. of more than half of what you see is the half of it. He endured so much more. And so, yeah, I think, you know, the goal of designing the first episodes to be an overall story, but then to kind of break him out was an early decision.

And I think, you know, demanded a bit of a different level of introspection, both by him and by me as the writer-director-productive. of it and all the team. It must feel so good to pour that much into a project and get the kind of reception you got for it, including last night, congratulations. Oh, thank you. Winning even more awards. Yeah, but really the thing that I love about it is the way that the men's life has changed.

Yeah. They are walking icons now, and people believe them. You know what I mean? People believe them. People know their story. People connect with them, and they represent something larger now. And so I see, I mean, I know all very well now. very well now. They've changed over the five years. They've changed over the last six months as people.

And they walk around, you know, a little more assured. Yeah, you gave them that. That's beautiful. Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Stick around to hear more from Ava DuVernay after the break. Welcome back to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Now more of my conversation with Ava DuVernay. I think a lot of people, you're on this crazy run and you have been for five or six years, a lot of people don't realize your backstory. They assume you've been making movies your whole life and you grew up wanting to be a filmmaker and now here you are. You've had this fascinating career. So your mom's in the room.

She might have an answer to this too. But when you were a little girl growing up in Southern California, what was the dream? Like, what did you want to be? What did you think about as you were growing up? I wanted to be a lawyer for a part of the time. Look at mom. Yeah. Okay.

And for a time, I went to be a broadcast journalist. Right. For a time, went to produce the news, not be in front of the camera. I don't even know where I got that from. I must have seen some movie or someone with someone walking around producing news. Broadcast news, maybe. Maybe. Maybe.

Or network? Aren't there some broad news? Oh, yeah. Somehow I thought I was going to produce the news, whatever that is. And you were an intern at CBS News. And then I took that all the way, and I was an intern at CBS News, as were you. And, yeah, so can we say CBS? Yeah, go for it.

We missed each other by a year, I think. Yes. Because you were on the OJ trial, and I was the next summer. Yeah. Dang. You were OJ unit. I was the OJ unit. And that made you run from the news.

I'm done with this. No way, I'm out of here. But so, yeah, I was, that really was the beginning of my career in journalism. It was dramatic. Look, I'm good. Yeah. So I went into publicity. Because I still love the news.

So publicity allowed me to touch. news to still work on articles and broadcast pieces but not literally for the network but for you know the person who's being interviewed and and so was still able to touch news in that way and I did that for a time and then got into movie publicity which married my two interests news and movies which I loved and so I did that for a while I had my own agency and then while I was working on all these movies. I was on all these sets. And I started thinking, looking at the guy directing, I was just like, you know, I like to. Oh, yeah, I know. I knocked that off. I'm just, I just fixed that.

Right? So I would be watching these frames to the camera and thinking, doesn't he want to just, or I think he should walk over here instead, or they should put the camera there. I'm in all this in my mind, directing my head. And finally, I thought, well, let me just go ahead and give it a try. And so you made a film for $6,000? I made a short about my mom. Yeah, yeah. A short film about my mom. And how did it turn out?

It is, I've wiped it off the face of the earth. It cannot be found. My mom just the other day was like, where's that movie you made about me? I was like, I don't know. I think somebody lost it. It is, it's tough. I didn't know, but it was my school. Right.

I was 32 years old. Yeah. You know, I wasn't going to be able to go to film school. So I just jumped in and learned by doing. So you kind of dabbled in both worlds for a long time. Yeah, and I didn't quit my day job. Right. Which is the big thing.

I talked to a lot of people who's like, how do I pursue my dreams? How do I change careers in the middle? I said, well, don't just do it all at once. Take it at steps. You don't have to just quit your job today and go, you know, play the harp because you always want to play the harp. It's like play the harp on the weekends. Know your strings, you know what I mean? Are I any good at this?

Yeah. And also, do you like it? Yeah. Do you even really like it? Like, you've idealized it for yourself. So do it in steps. And so I took those steps over a period of time, and then little by little, I phased out the other job.

And then you eventually, in 2012, you win big directing award, Sundance. That's why I thought maybe I should quit. Well, that's what I said. Maybe I am good at this. Yeah, that's when you said, okay, I'm a filmmaker now. Goodbye to the PR agency. I'd already made three films by this time. Yeah.

So that must have been an incredible moment for you at Sundance, this prestigious film festival to have that validation for your work. Yeah, yeah, it was an authentication of my own instinct that I could do it. Yeah. But, you know, you do need outside, I don't know, encouragement. I mean, you know, however autonomous and independent we are, you need someone to say, you know, I like that, and that was good. So who was that for you? I think it was Sundance overall.

It was Sundance. It was Roger Ebert who gave me a great early review on the film before it went to Sundance. Right. There was a woman critic named Carrie Ricky at the Philadelphia Inquirer who wrote the first positive review of anything I made. I remember that. And I thought, wow, okay, somebody saw what I was trying to share. So those small moments, you know, really, really mattered. And then you get on the fast track.

And within a couple of years, you're directing Selma. Directing Selma. This hugely influential, beautiful film. I'm thinking, is this going to happen? Like, as you're moving towards the day of shooting? Right. It's like, something's going to happen. I mean, they're giving me the first, me from nowhere, the first film ever made that centers

Dr. King. I was like, something's weird. This is off. It's not going to happen. Then one day I'm like, action. Too late now. I'm doing it. Yes, we're doing it.

So, yeah, it just really kind of stuck up with me. Talk about wanting to get a story right. We talked about when they see us. Selma, you really want to get right. And you did. So how did you approach that project? Well, that was the first time that I felt the pressure of trying to get something right and really just said, you know, no one knows me. I need to dwell in that space of not having the pressure of being a known entity.

Someone told me, enjoy being unknown because what you are is a different level of pressure. Right. So I really just steeped into making the Selma that I knew. I had had the great fortune of knowing Selma because my father was from Lowndes County, which is where Selma is. Lowndes County is the space between Selma and Montgomery, where they walk through on their way to the Capitol steps. That's what the march was, walking through Lowndes. And so my father is from there. And so I know those people, and I know those backwoods, and I know those roads, and I know that food and the feeling.

And I knew all that much better than I knew the political piece of it. And so I really just said, this is called Selma. It should be about the people of Selma who helped Dr. King get to where he is. And when we're talking about Dr. King, he shouldn't be the king of a holiday or a famous speech or a street in the black community. He should be a living, breathing man who had foibles and shortcomings, but who did something great. Yes. And so if we can see all that, it'll make us think, oh, I'm a normal human being, too.

Maybe I can do something great. And so, yes, you're going to see him smoke. And yes, you're going to see him have some problems with his wife. And yes, you're going to see the infighting and the challenges within the organizations as they try to mount this huge movement. And all of that adds up to, wow, regular people did something incredible. Instead of this mythologized. Yes. And all.

So that was how I went about it. And I thought, if I fail, they don't know me anyway. I'll be like that girl we didn't know did it. Well, you did the opposite of failure. It worked. So you're standing on red carpet at the Oscars all of a sudden. What was that like for you because I think three years before that you were running your PR firm? Yeah, I was walking someone down the rear carpet.

Yeah. Walking Jennifer Hudson down the rear carpet of that Dreamgirls. That's amazing. No, it was a beautiful experience, but it was mired in all of this controversy around Oscar So White. That year was the year that Oscar So White happened. this woman named April Raines, you know, started this campaign online in reaction to there being so few black companies that year. And for me and David not being nominated where people thought we could have been. And so all of a sudden this firestorm starts, and David and I are in the middle of it.

And we're kind of like, wow, this is a lot. But in the meantime, you know, our colleagues, John Legend in common were nominated for song, and the film was nominated for Best Picture. It was the first year that a film by a black woman had been nominated for Best Picture. And so there were beautiful things happening and controversial things happening. And I mean, I think my biggest lesson

was I got in that room and I thought, oh, it's just a room. Like, it's just a room with people dressed up. Like, this is not pot of gold at the other of the rainbow, it's just a room. And it changed everything for me. And it really, I'm so grateful with that experience because it really changed

and formed the way that I, made things in the future and thought about awards, which I think is a really much healthier way to think about it than I had. You know what's funny? I'm thinking now as you talk about it, the only thing I remember about those Oscars besides the Oscar So White was John in Commons performance. That was pretty good. Seriously, if you asked you what happened that night, that happened that night.

They came across the bridge and the... Yeah. So in some way, I don't remember who won Best Picture that year. No one ever remembers. Don't you think that's true? I do know it's true. Yeah. If you go out on the street right now, New York City.

No way. In all its glory, you asked someone who won last year, let alone five years ago, they're going to be like, I don't know. I really can't tell you. I've done the test and people don't know. No, you're right. Even people in our industry, can't tell you. I think you're, now I'm thinking about last year.

I hope you don't ask me. I won't put you on the spot. I won't put you on the spot. Which raises an interesting question, though. I know you've talked about this, is sort of the relevance, not just of the Academy Awards, but of movies and theaters and all that, because your work is on Netflix now. I watched the Irishman last night. It was on Netflix.

I sat in my living room and watched it and loved it. Yeah. I love a big screen, but I also liked watching it. So you've sort of come into this industry at a fascinating time where it seems like the center of power has moved away from the studio and the theater and the Academy Awards. And now it's like, get your content out there to more people who can see it. Is that you view that as a benefit to your work? I view it as a beautiful thing for all people.

It opens up the door to storytelling and, you know, narrative change, you know, and part of narrative change, you know, when you tell someone your story, it changed their metabolism and their idea about who you are. So if we can tell more kinds of stories about more people, we can do much better than we're doing in this country, right? If we can challenge the narratives that we hear and the stories that we hear and say, wait a minute, but I heard a different story. Check this one out. And it's not just everyone listening to the same thing all the time. We open up ourselves as a culture, as a community, as a society, as a country. I truly believe that. So part of that is being able to give more people access to more

stories and more ways. You know, you couldn't see Selma in Sama. There's no movie theater in Soma. There's no movie theater in Selma when we made Selma. Straight out of Compton, a beautiful film. Beautiful film. Should have been nominated for the Oscar, in my opinion, by F. Gary Gray. Couldn't watch that in Compton because there are no movie theaters in Compton. No movie theaters on native reservations. There's no movie theaters in a lot of black and brown communities in this country. And so all those people are left to all to see movies. How do they see the Irishmen? They have to take the bus and go into the thing or drive into the thing or the subway into the next

community that's not their home or you can wash it in your house. I mean, do you want them to see the movie or does it really matter the way they see the movie? And so that's why I challenge real makers, theater owners and all of that. Yes, we love theaters. I love Netflix just bought the Paris theater here. Keeping a movie palace going that was going to go away, right? These are important theater spaces. But also, So everyone can't get to it.

Everyone can't afford it, right? And so it's important to think about new ways to share these stories. And I think the new streaming and the new ways to interact with story is a positive thing. And so the sooner that the old guard can let go of that and see the good that comes from it, the sooner will be in a better place. But in the meantime, we're going to have friction. Folks still fighting for the old way. It won't last.

You know, it's kind of like old man on the yard. on the lawn yelling at cloud. It's like, it's just a cloud. It's there. It's not going to move because you're yelling at it. You also could make the case to them to their benefit to let go. And adapt and see how they can make some. New businesses, new technology.

But also, you're always going to love the experience of going to see a movie. So for the people who can afford it and who have a theater near them, fantastic. But also to the, you know, the dad who's been working all week, you know what I mean, and who just wants to sit down on the couch and watch the, something other than football, right? Yeah. Watch the Irishman. It's right there for you.

You don't have to sleep to the theater. Or you can. Up to you. Stick around to hear more from Ava DuVernay on the Sunday Sitdown podcast, including what it was like to make history with films like Selma, 13th, and a wrinkle in time. Welcome back to the Sunday Sitdown podcast. Now more of my conversation with Ava DuVernay. You've mentioned history. You made history with Selma, you made history with 13th, you made history with a wrinkle in time,

being the first African-American woman to direct a film with the budget over $100 million. Are those important milestones to you when you hear those? Does that feel good? Does it feel important? I know that it's important to other people. It doesn't feel real to me, like it's not a part of my identity. And also, sometimes when I hear, like when I'm introduced, it feels bittersweet. because it puts, it kind of seeks to or inadvertently sets me apart from, you know, my sisters who've been doing it for a long time who came too early.

You know, like Julie Dash or Casey Lemons, right? Like those are women who are doing incredible work, who's on Palsy, incredible work before I was even born, right? Before I was even doing this. And yet I get those accolades and they don't when their work is just as beautiful and even more so. It's just the time that I'm in, right? Right. And so I think we have to keep all that in perspective and not get too caught up in the firsts. It's nice for a moment, and I know a lot of people embrace that.

And so I don't want to diminish it. But also, there are a lot of other incredible women out there. Like, for example, I've been congratulated all fall for directing Harriet and Queen and Slim in Hollywood. In Hollywood, where we make movies. People saying, congrats on Harriet. I'm like, uh, thank you, but I didn't direct that movie. Congrats on Queen and Slim. It looks great.

I think it looks great too. Didn't make it. Don't have anything to do with it. But because they know it's black women doing it. Right. They make an assumption. Eva probably did it. Yeah, no.

She's great at that stuff. Oh, Jesus. It's true, really. Oh, man. So we got to push fast all that. We need to open it up. And until that happens, we're going to, you're going to, you know, be in a pretty static place, and this is not the time to be.

It's so interesting to hear you say that. I interviewed Sterling Kay Brown a couple weeks ago, and he made history with his Emmy for This Is Us. And I asked him that similar question. He said, you know, honestly, Willie, my reaction was, we're still doing firsts? You're right. That was the first? That was last year. That should have it 40 years ago.

That's crazy. I've taken enough for your time, and we want to do it at tea, but I do want to ask you because you're such a powerhouse. Like, what is out there in your mind that you haven't done, that you're dreaming of doing? I know you're going to do a little DC, little universe. But, like, what's still out there for you? You've got a lot of road ahead of you. You're just getting started.

I hope so. I hope I'm just getting started. I think, for me, my goal is not to expand. My goal is to stay present. You know what I mean? I just want to be here in 10 years doing it. And so I don't know if that's a function of being a black woman director in a space where there aren't many where people don't even know the difference between us.

You know what I mean? or if it's a function of not seeing any black women with 30-year, 40-year, 50-year commercial careers. It just doesn't exist. And that's something that just hasn't been done before. So my goal isn't to make an empire and do things I haven't done. My goal is to just be making work that means something to me that I think will resonate for other people 10 years from now. 20 years from now? Wow.

30 years? To be like Anya Svarda directing with my cane. You know? I want to be Scorsese with a hitched. hit movie at 77. It's not been a black woman that's done that before, right? And so my goal is to just mark your space and stay there. And if I can do that, I'll be a success in my own eyes. I have no doubt you will. Cheers. And one more thing. Queen and Slim was great. Good job. This guy. I just, I had to do it. I had to congratulate her on Queen and Slim after the story

she told me about being congratulated, not just by strangers on the street, but by people in Hollywood for making Queen and Slim and Harriet, which she, of course, did not make. You can catch Ava's new series, Cherish the Day on the Oprah Winfrey Network. I am joined now by the producer of the Sunday Sit Down podcast, Maggie Law. Hey, Maggie. Hi, Willie. Okay, so there's the body of work. There's all the incredible films she has made.

There is her work ethic. There is her attention to detail, all of which I love. Yes. But what I love most about her story is that she just hasn't been doing this very long. I know. She's sort of in the Hollywood, um, stratosphere of directors and powerhouses, as we call her. Yeah. But she hasn't been there very long.

Yeah, I know. I love that she said she started, I think, at 32. She kind of like jumped into this world and she had her own PR firm and everything first. And I loved her advice. She said, don't quit your day job. She said, you know, I sort of tested the waters. I made a short film about her mom. And then, you know, once she realized at Sundance, she got that award that she could really do it full time. She said that's when I, you know, getting recognition from the peers, jumped right into it. And, you know, she said, don't quit your day job.

And also make sure that whatever you're going into, you actually like doing. You know, are you good at it? But also is this truly your passion and worth sort of leaving, you know, your other job for. Yeah. The analogy she uses is playing the harp. She goes, okay, you want to play the harp. Great. Right.

Let's go see if you're any good at the heart. Right. And if you like playing the harp, which I thought was a good way to think about it. Don't quit your day job. She didn't. She continued to work in PR and didn't really. quit until she won the award at Sundance. And I was like, okay, I think some people think I can do this and I think I can do it.

And man, she's had an incredible run. And just even in the last couple of years from 13th and when they see us is such an amazing series. The Netflix series about the Central Park Five, people love a wrinkle in time. And I sort of liked that she was, you know, I was like, wow, that was history, a wrinkle in time with the budget for an African American woman to direct. Selma, obviously, you were the first African American woman to have. have a best picture nomination. She's like, yeah, she's like, that's nice, I guess, but it's not why I'm doing this. I like that she said, she was like, it's a little bittersweet because she was like, it's sort

of the time that we're in now, but there were so many that came before her that just weren't getting that recognition that's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right to happen, which I thought was so interesting.

Yeah. And who knew? I like tea. Never been a tea guy, but when you somehow. The ginger milk tea. I guess when you go to the right place, like Ava knows the right tea joint. And she helps you pick. the right tea, which she did.

We went and picked our tea. And I love that she, again, like, had the sort of layout of the tea and everything. Like, as I would say, interviewing a director, she sort of knew around the room, like how everything was supposed to look, where the cameras were, what they were picking up. And I was like, I like that. She had thoughts about the camera angles. I'm sure she did. And I had this finally say, hey, well, we got this.

We're going to take good care of you. This is our production. But as I said, I love that about it. I love somebody who cares that much about every detail, which is, of course. Of course, why she's successful. Maggie, thank you very much. Thank you. My thanks to all of you, as always, for tuning in this week.

If you want to hear more of the full-length conversations with my guests every week, be sure to click subscribe so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune in to Sunday today every weekend on NBC. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast.