Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - Benny Blanco on Making Music, Marriage to Selena Gomez and his New Book on Embracing Failure

Episode Date: September 13, 2026

Benny Blanco is an 11-time Grammy-nominated songwriter, producer, and recording artist who has quietly shaped some of pop music's biggest moments over the past two decades. He sat down with Willie Geist at Electric Lady Studios in New York to talk about his new book, F*ck Failure, and what he believes is the secret to writing a great song. Benny also opens up about his path from aspiring rapper to acclaimed producer and artist in his own right, and shares how his marriage with Selena Gomez came to be. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks, as always, for clicking and listening along. Got a great one for you this week with one of the most influential voices in all of music. His name is Benny Blanco. And when I say voices, it's because he is the man in the room creating some of the biggest hits in music, whether it's Ed Shearrett or Justin Bieber or Katie Perry or Rihanna or his wife, Selena Gomez. He is a producer who has an ear.

And he helps understand what makes a good song. I ask him to explain what is the secret sauce. What is the magic behind Benny Blanco? What does a producer do in the room with these big stars when they're trying to create a song? Great conversation about music and how it's made. Benny and I got together at the famed electric lady studios in New York City where so many of the albums you know in love over the years

and so many of the artists you know in love over the years. Going back to Jimmy Hendricks, who started the studio, have recorded it is kind of sacred ground for musicians. So it was very cool to be inside the studio to have that conversation with him. He's got a new book out than he does. It's called, well, I'll call it F failure. He uses the whole word. And basically talks about how he considers himself an expert on failure, the seven steps to facing your fears,

and why the key to his success actually has been failure. So big, wide-ranging conversation with him about music, his life and career, fascinating hustle for him, his nickname, Benny Blanco, is a stage name because when he was a young guy, he thought he was going to be a rapper, and he thought a cool stage name because he was a white guy would be Blanco. So Benny Blanco, his given name is Benjamin Levin, Benny Blanco, who's also a character, as many of you know in a mob movie. So anyway, that's the origin story of him.

And then he kind of works his way into these rooms as a young hustling kid meets with record labels. Then he starts working with well-known producers, and before you know, he's making some of the biggest songs. in all of music. As I said, he's married to Selena Gomez. They collaborated on a song. Next thing you know, unbeknownst to him, they were on a date that he didn't realize was a date. He talks about that. And just a jovial, funny, self-deprecating, wide-open guy is Benny Blanco. So I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. Again, sitting down at Electric Ladies Studios in New York with Benny Blanco right now on the Sunday Sitdown podcast. Beny, great to see you, man.

Thanks for doing this. I'm here. I cannot wait to talk about F failure, which I have totally marked up and dog-eared like a textbook. Oh, my gosh. It was really fun, so much to relate for me, but I think for a lot of people in there as well.

Before we talk about the book, though, can we talk about where we are just for a minute, which is Electric Lady Studios? Oh, legendary. And why is it legendary? What's so special about this place? I think whenever, Okay, so I don't, do you play any instrument?

Poorly. Okay, perfect, me too. Okay. So, let's say you got a regular guitar from, like, guitar center. You're going to hit it, you're going to play. Maybe it plays well, maybe it sounds good. But let's say you got, like, a really old one from a garage sale, and you play it, and, like, when you hit a certain note,

it makes a weird creaking noise. And I feel like the character of an instrument is, like, character of this studio. The studio has been around for so long. It has so much history. There's so much vibe. Like, so much of music, I think, is based around, like, your surroundings. And, like, if you're in a good zone, you have a good energy, you're like, this, I mean, this room just feels part of my French. It feels really cool. Like, I don't even know if we're allowed to curse on this thing. Yeah, go for it. Bleep it out. No, but it just, it has an energy and an aura, and you feel it the second you step in the room, you're like, wow, I'm a little bit cool.

And, you know, Jimmy Hendrix recorded. Like, it doesn't get cooler than that. Yeah. Like, Jimmy Hendrix made his album here. Like, you're going to make your bad album here because you have to. Jimmy Hendrix, who opened the place, I think, in 1970. Correct. And literally anyone you can name a big name in the history of music has performed here, has recorded here.

And you were saying something interesting, too. There is a sort of a producer-engineer booth over there where typically a producer would be. but when you produce a record, you want to be in here. Yeah, I want to, like, I like the feeling of me. I'm not like a studio guy, so it's like so scary being, it's also so scary being so far away from the artist. You're like, you know, it's like, what are they thinking?

You know, they turn off the mic to you, and they're like, and they're whispering, you're like, what the fuck is? What are they talking about? And this studio I like specifically, too, because you never know what's going to have. happen, you know. You're the other night. I'm finishing an album. I'm recording and then all of a sudden, like, I walk outside and it's like, I see Taylor and then like we're hanging out

and then they're writing a song upstairs. And then I walk out and, you know, Jack Antonoff and Sabrina Carpenter are there. And then Jack Harlow's in this room right here. And it's like, the energy is contagious. So it's like sometimes if I'm feeling like I don't have a good idea. I just like walk out and talk to people. And then I come back and I'm like, oh, okay, there. Or maybe I just wasted a day in this video and I'm just chilling. Either way, it works for me.

Yeah, people probably don't realize there are a bunch of floors to this place. So you're right, there may be somebody huge upstairs. Huge, making a way better song than you upstairs, hoping it rubs off on you. We had Mumford and Sons on the show a few months ago, and they were saying Gracie Abrams was doing her new album on a different floor, exactly what you just described. They started talking about a song, and they were like, do you want to just sing on it? She was like, sure.

And it's on the record. Yeah. Because that's kind of how this place works. Yeah. It's just like, I know. I just book it out praying. I can go out to someone. I'm like, hey, you want to sing on this song?

That's smart. Sorry. All right, let's talk about the book. Okay. I'm going to call it F failure. Call it. Call it. Call it.

It's spelled out more specifically in the title. Why did you sit down and write this book? I think a lot of people probably look at you and they're like huge success professionally. Great personal life. Seems happy and charismatic and all the things. So what makes you an expert on failure? Because I'm the biggest failure in the world.

I've failed so many times. And failing is not a bad thing. You know, I think we're taught to think it's something bad. You know, when you grow up, it's like, don't fail. You want to succeed. And it's just like, really, in order to succeed, I don't even know what, like, these are just like arbitrary words that like somebody taught us like I don't know what failure is I don't know what success is I know what I feel like when I'm doing something good and sometimes to get to

the point of where you feel really good you got to stumble a few times and I the reason I wrote this book is because when I was a kid I didn't really have those opportunities I was from Virginia I wasn't born like a gazillionaire I didn't have any connection No one in my family worked in music. No one worked in the entertainment business. Nobody did anything like that at all. Like my mom worked in an assisted living home. Like I, and I just had to like figure it out kind of on my own along the way.

And I wish there was some book that wasn't just like a, the keys to success. Like I don't want to hear that. No kid wants to hear that. You want to open up a book and you want to see like real stories like, oh, this is. is what they did when they made this thing. This is how he got to this space. This is a story that reflects this journey. And I'm not some old, like, old, like, 70-year-old, like, washed-up dude or a guy that has never even had success telling you. I'm telling you real stories and real things that have happened to me and helped me get to where I am. So you don't have to make all the same

mistakes. You're going to make a buttload of mistakes. You're just not going to make the exact same mistake is me because I'm going to guide you through it and coach you to, you know, find, find your own way. And also, some people just don't know how to start. It's like, it's like, they're down to fail, but they just, they don't even know where to begin. They get lost. It's like a, they're spin around in circles. And I, you know, I help you get through that stuff, or I try to at least. Part of what I love about it is, you're right, it's not preachy as these books can be. Sometimes as you say, here's the way to do it. It worked for me. It's going to work for you. kind of saying some of this stuff worked for me and you're open at the beginning.

You're like, you're still going to fail after this book. Totally. But maybe these are some ways to cope with it. And when you open this up, the first words you read, once you get past the title are, you are a failure. Yes. Which hits you kind of hard. Then you go, oh, I guess that's true.

We all are, right? I don't know you, but I'm sure you failed. I'm sure you failed professionally. I'm sure you failed in your personal life. I'm sure you failed like in your family life. Everyone does. Everyone fails all the time. And I'm telling you it's okay.

Most books don't tell you it's okay. I'm saying it is totally okay to fail and I want you to fail. And so how do you get to a place where you embrace it? Because you're right. Culturally, it's like you can't fail. That's dangerous. People will judge you. It'll be embarrassing.

Of course. Which is almost, as you write in the book, it's almost narcissistic. You're like, people don't care that much about you. Nobody cares. Right? No one cares about you. Okay, look. Michael Jordan is one of the arguably

the greatest basketball player of all time. Okay. Kobe Bryant. Like, that LeBron James. Okay, these are some of the best basketball players of all time. Michael Jordan didn't even make his high school basketball team. Okay, so right there. Kobe, I think, took more shots than anybody in the NBA or something similar to that. Like, LeBron has messed up so many times, but nobody's sitting there like, Hey, do you remember that time when like they miss like eight shots? No, you remember Michael Jordan dunking with his tongue out, you know? And nobody's looking at your failures like that. And if they are, they're like an a hole and you shouldn't talk to them anymore because that's weird.

Like that's weird. Somebody keeping tabs on you like that is crazy. And it's just like this. Look, you are a failure. and that's a good thing to know. And it's not a bad thing. It's not like, like, I've failed yesterday. I finished a mix from one of my songs.

I gave it to the artist. We'd already mastered it. They didn't like it. They wanted to redo something. And what am I going to do? Like, cry about it? No. I'm not going to do that.

And you have to start to, you know, get comfortable with the fact that everything's not going to always go your way. And you said something before when you said people get embarrassed. Okay. And that's that's the number one thing. Like when you're sitting there, you don't want to fail because you don't want to be embarrassed. You don't want to be embarrassed by yourself. You don't want to be embarrassed by your peers. Social media makes it like so easy to fall into that trap of like not only feeling embarrassed, but comparing yourself to other people. And it's just like you could do it. You could do it. You could sit there and mope for a long long time. You know, I remember I was talking to Mel Robbins. And I said, when did you change your life?

And she said, one day, I woke up. She said, I was an alcoholic. I was terrible on my relationship. I was in debt. And I had done that cycle for like six or eight months. And she said, I woke up one day and I was like, all right, I'm not doing this anymore. And it's as easy as telling yourself that. And she didn't like turn around the next day. And she's like a number one New York Times. best-selling author, but she took that first step. And it's all about just taking that first step. It's just that first step. It could be the smallest step in the world. And the step could just be saying, like, I'm ready to try. Like, it can be, you could just say it. You don't even have to put it into existence yet. Just like at least start, like, tricking yourself, you know? Yeah. And like you say in the book,

you should forget your failures, but learn from them. And you say, when you fail, you wake up, with amnesia, which is to say, like, just don't dwell on it. Take what you need from it. Take the lesson from it and go, go, go. Yeah, don't like, be, like, oblivious to it. But, like, yeah, you take the note, you're like, okay, here's what I did wrong. And sometimes it's not even you. Sometimes it's just the situation. It's the timing. It's anything that could be in it. And I try to take each experience as just like a lesson to learn from. And it's like I know some of these things are like cliche, but a lot of people don't do them. A lot of people, a lot of people fail and then they give up. Like the only way you're not going to succeed is if you give up because then you have no chance

of succeeding. If you keep trying, you do it, you at least have a chance. Like, and I'm not saying like there's certain things that like that you're not going to be able to succeed at. Like, I'm not going to be in the NBA tomorrow if I start today. And I'm actually not going to be in the NBA ever. But if I worked like my entire life, like maybe I could be like a coach. Maybe I could be something adjacent. You know, you never know. I thought I was going to be the biggest rapper in the world.

And I was confident at it. And I went for it. And I didn't become the biggest rapper in the world. But I landed somewhere pretty cool. My life's pretty cool. because I tried. And I failed at that, but then you pivot. And in the book, I talk about that.

Most likely you're not going to land exactly where you start. But if you're working really hard, you're going to land somewhere cooler than if you're just sitting in your bed dwelling on how your life sucks. You've got these seven steps, basically. And we want to save some for people to read, so we won't go through all of them here and now. But the first one is shut up. What do you mean by that? I mean, shut up.

You're like, you're sitting there all day and you're talking about how you can't do something, okay? You're spending so much time talking about how, this is why I can't get it done. This is what the, this and that. And it's just like, dude, just shut up. Like, shut up and just like, come up with an idea, come up with any idea of a thing you want to do.

Okay? And don't tell me why you can't do it. Okay. You could tell me why it's going to be hard. And like, this is your first step of like nine million. But like, don't set yourself up for failure right away. Like, go into it with a positive attitude. Like, it's ridiculous. It's like so many people fail because they look at the daunting task of starting and they say all the reasons why they're not going to do it. So shut up. It's pretty self-explanatory. A little bit of a part of that, which I love to is fake the funk, which is don't tell yourself, I'm not good enough yet, or I'm not experienced. I don't know the right people. Just go try it and fake it a little bit until you figure it out. Nobody's experience.

Look at me. I'm really not like, I'm pretty good at making music, but I'm not great. Like, there's so many people that are like way better than me. But like, I tried really hard and I kept going and I will will anything into it. existence. Will is so powerful. Will is so much more powerful than skill. You know, and and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and we're in in in in the world, and the world. I did. Where does that confidence come from for you that you can do anything? I think there was that there. I think a lot of that is her, you know, is her raising me well.

And, you know, I think my family, like, made me confident. Also doubted me just enough. Like, I think it's like, they doubted, so I'm like, I got to do that. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, you don't want them to, you don't want your parents to be like, you can do anything. You want them to be like, you can do anything, but like you're probably not going to, like, succeed in it.

Like, you want, like, just enough, just a little spice of each. Right, right. You know? Yeah, and I've always, some people, like, yeah, that's the one thing, like, that's, like, that you can't teach. Yeah, I had confidence, but what you can teach is you can teach people how to come into something prepared and give them tools to learn how to be more confident. You know.

Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Stick around to hear more from Benny Blanco right after the break. Welcome back now more of my conversation with Benny Blanco. Where does persistence come into this? Because I look at your early career and your early year just knocking on doors and sending your MySpace through to producers and just not taking no for an answer. how big is persistence been for you? It's probably the number one thing.

It's like that not giving up because like if you keep going, the people are going to fall off. So then your competition is getting shorter and shorter. The list is getting shorter. The longer you keep at it, so many people are going to fall apart for different reasons. And like, I'm sure like you becoming successful in what you do is a lot based on you,

but it's also a lot on other people. people quitting. Yes. And they're just being an opportunity for you. I say that all the time. I mean, there's like a small subset of people who want to wake up at four o'clock in the morning for 20 years. There's going to be some attrition in that group of people. And there you are standing there at the end of it. And that was your will. And that was your persistence to chase something and do it. And so many people just aren't going to do that. They're just not going to put in the effort. So it's like persistence mixed with effort, mixed with will, mixed with a little bit of craziness.

You have to be a little crazy to succeed. Like, yeah, you're waking up at four in the morning every day. Like, it's like, or five days a week. Like, you're crazy. You're crazy. You look put together. You look like a hot, handsome guy, but you're crazy. It is a little insane, isn't it?

Yeah. But you'd say the same about yourself, right? Of course. That's how I'm saying it's easy. Yeah. I mean, there's another piece of this, which I love, which speaks to your character and the way you treat people, which is also part of your success,

and you say, don't be a d'b-a-a-ha- right? Which gets right to the point. And I think maybe even more so these days, there's like this assumption that to get ahead, you almost have to be that way, which I find the opposite to be true. What's been your experience with that?

You know, it's funny. I remember, before I became an artist again, I was talking with, Ed Sheeran, and he said, don't give people the opportunity to not want to help you. Like, like, if somebody asks you to do something and it seems like really small, just do it. Like, if somebody, he said, if you go into a room and, like, you can make someone's life easier, like, you're walking down the street. Okay, here's a perfect example.

I walk down the street, okay? and people will come up to me. And I could totally just like ignore them or say, oh, I don't want to talk right now. I don't want to do a picture right now. I don't want to do this. But like this little moment that I have with someone can make their whole day better, can make their whole month better, can make their whole life better. And I feel like it's so much easier to be, like it takes so much energy to be a d.

Like it just takes, it takes more energy to be a d. than it does to be nice. Like, to be like, no, I don't want to do that. Or just be like, yeah, sure. Like, and it's just like, so, and I feel I believe in karma. I believe in carmic energy. I believe in fate. I believe in will.

I believe in free will. I believe in all this stuff. And I believe that if you treat people right and you pay it forward, and you should do that just because you should be a good person, but I do believe that with success, it helps lead you in the right direction and the force just keeps pushing you. And yeah, a lot of bad people become successful,

but they have their day. Like that, like, I mean, look how many people have gone to, like, jail in the last like five, 10 years. And it's like, no matter what, if someone is not being a great person, they're going to have their moment in the sun. And I think it's just like, you can just be nice and it makes everyone around you feel better.

and people want to work together and people want to help you succeed if you're helping them succeed. It's just, I just feel like there's a way to treat people. And if you treat people in the right way, you're putting positive energy into the world, okay? And then I feel like that is going to reflect back onto you. and you're going to feel that same energy brought back to you. It's kind of like a mirror I look at it. Yeah, and I think also maybe you found this too. The people who do behave badly, there's a weakness to it to me and an insecurity.

And I go, you're not confident with who you are or your ability or your talent or whatever it is. And one of the things you write in the book, too, is kind of like do the bare minimum, which to you and I, the things you say about your wife, or I might say about my wife, or the way you treat people in this room, or I treat people in the makeup room at our network, it seems obvious that you'd say, hello, how are you? And tell me about your kids.

But like to some people, that's a, oh my gosh, he's so nice. Yeah, yeah, just like a little thing you do. Like, yeah, when you go into a room, introduce yourself to people, say hello to people. Like, it's the bare minimum. And so many people don't do it. I'm sure you guys interview 9 million people who, like, don't even look at the people that are behind the cameras and stuff. And, like, that doesn't feel good.

That doesn't make people feel like they want to, like, help you out. Or, like, it just doesn't set a good energy for the room. It's just, like, just be a cool person. But what I do find is people who are successful, like you and others who I won't name, are comfortable in their skin, and they do all those things, right? Because they're not trying to prove something about who there. I was also just like taught like, yeah, it would be a good person. Right.

So it's very simple. It's not that complicated. Another part of the book, and again, I'm not going to burn all these because people need to read it. But you write, there's enough cake, which is so profound. Yes. Which means sometimes professionally will have this feeling of, well, if that person's succeeding, it means I'm failing. I want everyone to win. everyone, there's enough cake for everyone to eat.

Like, it's like, why do you have to take mine off my plate? Like, it's like, that's the thing that's crazy to me. There's, everyone can be number one. You know, there's, like, I look at, like, the Billboard chart, okay? There's a lot of songs that go number one a year. You don't have to take every single spot. You can, everyone can be number one. Everyone, like, I look at other people and if I can help them,

achieve their dreams, I'm going to achieve mine along the way. And it's all going to happen for all of us, maybe at the same time. I mean, your success, the way you talk about it too, is like, it's all these things that we've just talked about kind of put together. Because you say, I'm not the best on any of these instruments or I sort of understand taste. I know what sounds good and what people might like. So when you think about going back to being five years old and saying, I'm going to be a big star in music to where you are now. Does it blow your mind, the people you surround yourself with and the success you've had? Or do you sort of feel like, yeah, I kind of get why I landed here?

I want to say that I get it and be that cool guy. But, no, it's really crazy. It's really crazy. I wake up every day and I get to do. what I love and I'm like, I'm a fan of music. I'm a fan of actors. I'm a fan of like, you know, comedians and people who write books and people who run podcasts and like to wake up and be able to do what I'm doing at the level that I'm doing it at, anybody who says like that they don't pinch themselves every day is crazy. Like if I go in and I hear someone singing like,

the best line. I'm still a fan. I'm still like, ooh, that's so cool. Or if I'm, you know, tomorrow, like, I get to go hang out with, like, Martha Stewart. Are you, like, out of your mind? That's, like, a dream. I used to watch her on TV when I was a kid. Or, like, yeah, like, I went on Howard Stern's show. That's insane to me. Like, that he even knows who I am. Like, if I walk in a room and I get greeted by someone who's, like, at a level of someone I only dreamt of as a kid. Like, yeah, I'm pinching myself. I'm pinching, I'm giving myself a wedgy.

I don't know, I'm doing whatever. I'm hanging myself upside down and spinning around in circles. Yes, this is a crazy life. And I know that I worked really hard for it. And I know that I got incredibly lucky and I'm incredibly fortunate. And it's still just like a fever dream. And yet you have earned your place in all those rooms you just described because of. Tried to.

Your ability to make music. If I asked Ed Sheeran or Katie Perry or Rihanna or Salina or anybody you've worked with closely, what do you think they would tell me is the magic of Benny Blanco? Why is he so good at what he does? Okay. I think they would say, like, that I create an environment that feels conducive to creating and like is just a good vibe. And a lot of people do say, they'll say like,

I came into work with you. We just like chilled for six hours, ate food, made some like, like, fart jokes, watch TV, and somehow we have like a song done. Like how does that happen? And I think I try to create an environment where it's very easy to pull stuff out

and feel comfortable. and then I do think they'll say like, yeah, my sheer will to just like keep working on a song over and over again and never let something die and like really just keep trying to push it forward. Maybe that's what they're. Is it just intuitive when you know a song is ready? Like you say, you push it, let's do it again, let's do it again. Is there a moment where you'll look at the artist and be like, that's it? No, usually my manager has to rip it out of my hands. They're like, the masters do.

Like our masters have been due. Like, I still haven't finished the masters of something that were due like a few days ago. But just like everything else in the world, everyone says it's due. And it's not really due then. Nothing's ever really due that. It's always hurry up and wait. But I think these are actually due now. And I think he's making a face at me.

Yeah, I think so. Checking out off camera. Yeah, yeah, off camera. It'll be done soon. You've got songs in here. say you were kind of surprised, weren't bigger hits and some that you were like, oh, that's a bigger hit than I thought I was going to be. Is there any way to know in the room what's really going to connect? You get a feeling. Okay. So when we're writing a song, you get a feeling.

Okay. And I can only describe it as like, okay. So if you're like about to get hit by a car or like startled or like you just are leaning in for that first kiss. It's like that like take your breath away and your chest and like your stomach a little. I get that feeling when we hit the right notes. We do the right chords. It's everyone feels it. You feel it when you get it. It's like unexplainable, but there's a feeling that happens. And when that happens, I at least know we're on the right path. I think when I was younger and the music business was slightly different and there wasn't so much social media involved in it.

I think I was maybe even a little bit better at picking out the songs. Now, I feel like you just have to go with your gut. And I go with my gut. And I think if I like it, at least a few other people might like it. So then I hope those few other people like it and a few other of their friends like it. You know, you just go with your gut. I never try to make something for everyone else. It all starts by being made for me.

Trust your gut is in the book, too. And over time, when you realize your gut has been correct enough, you really start to trust your gut, right? I'm trusting my gut right now. I trusted my gut this morning. I ate some eggs before I came in. What did you get into? Little eggs, yeah?

Yeah, I had a little eggs. Well, I was trying to figure out. I was like, shoot, how long is this interview going to be? Am I going to be hungry after? I got to go shoot something after? I'll have a little eggs. Actually, my manager was with me, and I was getting hair and makeup done, and I asked him to help do the eggs. He scrambled eggs.

Oh, is that right? Yeah, he did a really good job. You should get him that album. If he made the eggs, let's get the album. Yeah, I'm getting the album. I'll get the album done. Thanks for the eggs. They were delicious eggs.

He did an incredible job. Did we scramble today? We scrambled. We had a little egg whites and some egg, whole eggs, too. There was a pita. I stuffed it in. It's a little avocado, this little feta cheese there. What?

This is fancy scramble eggs. It just happened to, it's usually not that fancy. All the pieces just fell into place with sheer will. There it is. It all comes back to the book. It all comes back to the book. Shear will. I almost failed and I was saved by another man this morning.

There you go. See how we connected it? Very nice. Scramble eggs in the book. Yeah. Stick around for more of my conversation with Benny Blanco right after. a quick break. Welcome back now to the rest of my conversation with Benny Blanco. Are there things out there, you talk about flying in the book, things out there that you were,

you may never conquer, like a fear like that. Well, I just flew. You did fly? I flew for the first time in nine years. No way. For this book. And? It sucked. But I did it. I did it. I flew because I said, how can I put this book out if I'm, like, hiding from, like, my biggest fear? Like, how can I do that? How can I tell people to go buy this book? And I'm not getting on, like, a tube in the sky. And I was like, I got to do it. So I did it.

It sucked. I made a step for it. I'm not saying I'm cured today. It's like the thing. It's like I just started. I started the journey of trying to get over it. I'm not cured. I'm going to fail again.

I'm sure there's going to be a time where I don't get on a plane again or where I can't do it or where I make an excuse. But I started. I started doing it and that's like the best you can do is today.

Like I urge anyone just like the thing that you'll want to do. Just start it. Just start it. I'm not, you don't have to say I'm going to do it. I'm going to be the biggest today.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying I can't put this book out unless I get on a plane. My first step is getting on one plane. I'm not, and everyone asked after they said, so you cured, are you going to get on plans? I said, I don't know. I said, but I started. I'm making an effort and I'm pushing forward.

Nobody's perfect. I'm not, I'm the furthest thing from perfect. And what I can tell you is like, that was like the most crippling fear in the world. And it just took me waking up one day and making that one decision to start. And I purposely did that. I didn't say, you're going to fly forever. I said, just get on. You just got to get on.

You had a short flight. flew like an hour and it was like you just and I got went and got some tacos it was great um but I did it for the sole purpose of doing it I had no destination I said I have to do this and I did it and if that's not like this book in a nutshell then like I don't know what to tell you I'm the most scared I hate flying more than anything in the world like I the last time I flew was nine years ago the time before that was probably eight years ago and and I did it and I did it and I did I did it and it wasn't perfect and I'm not perfect and I will have a lot of trouble flying again, but I did it. I did it.

That's it. I did that one task. That's a big deal for you. That's a huge deal. Yeah. So it's like someone's just got to write down, you write down what you want to do and you write your one task for today. And it can be big, it can be small, but just do that one task. That task can be, okay, let's say like I want to start a company.

want to start like a solar panel company. Okay, maybe today you look up how to start an LLC or something, or you come up with a name. Or if you don't know about solar, you start doing a little research. Like, just make one. I'm not saying do every single thing, but make a list, and I love lists. Lists are my favorite. And then start with one thing on the list, just one. Because the big thing is too daunting.

Of course. But if you just do that first step. That's what I'm saying. It's so daunting to do every, like, okay, I want to make an album. Well, what's the album going to be about? Who's going to be on it? When's it going to come out? What am I going to wear in the thing?

Yeah, all that stuff. Then it's like, you have so many questions. And you're like, oh, I can't do this. Look at how many things are on the list. But just like, find one thing. You can find the, it can be the 10th thing on the list. Make a list. Pick one of the things to do.

Little of time. Little of the time. One step. One step. Well, that's amazing. for you getting on that plane. I know that's a huge deal for you. I did it. Let's see where it goes from here. Yeah, we'll see. Yeah, all right. Don't push me. Don't push me, Willie. You also talk in the book, for people who maybe can't relate to producing a record with Ed Shearren about relationships

and what has worked for you and how we all fail in our personal relationships and in our marriages or with our boyfriend or our girlfriend or whatever it is. What can people learn from you and Selena in this book? Oh, my God. Man, listen up. Okay. First of all, I've got to be like the poster child for the guy you got to listen to. Look at me. Like I have the most beautiful wife in the world.

I did it and I didn't use like black magic or anything. I just was nice and and I think, I think, I think this. I think, let's take arguing, for example. Okay. Let's say your wife comes home and she's just like upset. Okay, she's upset. Something happened in the day. Most men think they have, like, the answer right away.

They know exactly what you need to do. Oh, well, you need to do this. And then that, and then, like, your girlfriend, your wife, your partner, they don't want to hear that right away. Like, they don't want, you don't have to solve it. You're not like doctor fix it. Like, sometimes you just have to listen. You just listen. Even if you know what the right answer is.

And even if they know, obviously, like, your wife is smarter than you. of course she knows what the right answer is, but she just wants to talk about it for a little and blow a little steam off. So like let her blow that steam off, and then like once you feel like she's ready and you're ready, then you can assess how to fix it. Like you don't have to fix it right away.

Sometimes people just want to feel like they're being heard by their partner because they're not being heard in their work or like on the street or there was an unresolved conflict and they just want to feel hurt. So that's like rule number one. Rule number two, like, it's so easy to be a good partner. Like, like, text your, like, if your partner, like, my wife wants me to text her and say, I love you.

She's made that, like, very clear. She wants, like, during the day, she wants me to just, like, send her a reminder that I love her. Like, send the reminder. Like, don't be an idiot. Like, are you an idiot? Like, you're not, like, on the moon, like, doing nine million things. You don't have like, like, you don't, it's ridiculous. Send the text, okay?

There's, like, very easy things you do. Talk to your partner, understand your partner, understand their needs, and do the small things. It's not like they're asking you to, like, jump through fire. They're like, hey, you mind sending me a text? Like, so many guys are like, dude, I forgot. I'm like, you don't do anything. You're, like, sitting farting on the couch, eating pizza with your friends and getting high.

Send a fucking text. I think, I think. I think also like knowing, you can't just roll over and do everything your partner says. It's like knowing when that push pull is and understanding your partner and being able to talk about things and have an open dialogue. Okay, so many people, there's no open dialogue. Like they're bottling things up and then you're destined to fail. How is your partner supposed to know how to help you if you've never told them? How's your partner supposed to grow with you if they don't know what you want?

So I think a big testament to a healthy relationship is communication. And a lot of times guys aren't as good as communication. So I'm talking to you guys. You got to express your feelings. You got to listen. You got to, you know, it's not always about being so defensive. and sometimes you did do something wrong, sometimes you failed. And your partner doesn't care.

Like ultimately like rare, unless you like cheated or like killed someone or like, your partner doesn't care when you do something wrong that much. They care when you do something wrong and you don't apologize for it. And you don't work on it. And you don't like it's not the act that you did that failed most of the time. It's something stupid. It's most of the time it's something so stupid. like you left the seat up, you didn't do the dishes, you didn't, like, and a lot of people,

that's where that ego comes in, that's where that embarrassment comes in, they get defensive because they're a little insecure about the situation. And if you just learn from that and say, like, oh, I'm going to fail. Like, it's so much easier, I remember I was, not too long ago, I was in, me and Slina were in like a, we were just like in like a, like a, a, debate about something. And she was like, at the end of it, I was like, I'm sorry. And she was like, if you just said that, like 20 minutes ago, like we wouldn't have even had to talk about this. And I said, you know what, you're totally right. You're totally right. And it's, we're learning each other all the time. And yeah, I don't know. Those are little tidbits. Yeah. And a lot of this

falls, again, under the bare minimum thing, which is send the text. Say, I'm sorry. Do the easy things that save you a lot of trouble, right? It's so crazy. It's so crazy. It's, I know. People just want to like, what do you want to do? You want to like win this argument that you're like not even right about. And then it's just like, just like you guys are on the same team. Yeah. Work together. You guys seem just listening to you talk and her as well and reading the book and seeing you in other interviews.

Just have such an easy chemistry about you. Like that is also true. Yeah. It's so easy. It's so like I wish I could say it was like really hard. It's not, at least not yet. we're very fortunate that like you know but that's all about failure too i had to fail she had to fail at relationships for years to find that right person we had to go do a lot of therapy and

swallow our pride and and and learn and grow from not mistakes just experiences and that are like technically failures i don't see any relationship as a failure because it helps you you grow into the person you want to become and you learn a lot things you should do, things you shouldn't do, things you'll do differently next time. I think we just went on this journey together at the right time. And we've known each other for a long time. It's all about timing, place, and we, yeah, we're just,

we're in a really good spot and I'm very fortunate. And I think, again, like not being a . Being nice to people put that in my orbit. my orbit and put her into my orbit at the right time. And again, that, like, carmic flow, that energy is like everything. Like, you want to be stirring the pot with good energy. Yes. Amen to that. You also, I love that you've been working together. And then all of a sudden maybe she looked at you a little differently and you had her a little differently and you went on the first date that you didn't know was a date. Correct. That's a true story.

Yeah, correct. I had no idea. Like, I had no idea. And then, like, on the date and now I'm like, so this a date? And she's just like, yeah, like, what do you mean? I wore this out. And then I was like, oh my God. And I just didn't even realize it because I was just like going with the flow, doing the thing. And then we're on a first date. And then we're on a second date.

And then we live together. And then we're married. And who knows what's next. You're like, I guess we're doing this. I know. And it's great. And it's great when you find that person who's also like, you know, you want to surround you. I don't even know if this is in the book. but you want to surround yourself with people who are also doing the right thing and also have the right sensitivities and goals in mind as you like.

And it's like, yeah, like when she comes home and she tells me everything she did, she's like running this company, doing this charity thing, starring in this movie, like, it makes you want to be like, okay, well, I got to work hard and do stuff too, not in a competitive way, but like in like a fired up way. And it's, I really think, like, if you surround yourself with people, like, in your personal life, but also in your professional life, that all want to win and all want to do something cool, like, yeah, if you're surrounding yourself with people who are just like, I'm depressed, I'm not, like, yeah, you're going to be like, maybe I'm a little depressed too. But if everyone around you is like, let's go, then we're in good shape. Play the level of your competition a little bit, or your friends at least. Exactly.

Last thing before you go play the xylophone, which I know is one instrument you've not mastered or tried. or anything. No, I've never played the Zyloven. Speaking of Selena, you guys looked great the other night, all decked out. Did we have fun at the big wedding? Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, it was great. It was good. It was great. I love love. I love and I love to see when two people are in loving there, like, couldn't be more in love with each other.

That was a joy. I hope I didn't like Xylophone. Now I'm thinking about the Xylophone. I'm like, holy, where is it? It's coming in. We stress you out a little bit. I'm not stressed out. I got a Xylophone. and I know we're going to have fun, and I know, like, they'll edit it and make it look good, I hope. You guys good at editing? Okay, okay, good.

They're shaking their head. We're going to take care of you. Okay, let's do it. All right, let's try it up. After our sit-down conversation, Benny and I hopped up, staying in that studio at Electric Lady and stood behind a pair of, I have to tell you, giant, massive xylophones.

Why are we doing this? Well, in keeping with his book and the themes there, he wanted to face his fear of failing at this instrument, He knows nothing about. He can play all the other instruments. Doesn't really know how to do this one. So we brought in an expert, a Juilliard trained musician in this instrument. His name is Brandon.

Great guy, smart guy, funny guy. And he, let's just say, he kind of got us down the road a little bit. I'm not going to pretend we were great at it, but we had a lot of fun. Here's me and Benny learning the xylophone from Brandon of the Juilliard school. So of all... Just get a little head starts. Yeah, I see that. Of all the instruments in this room, there's one that you really don't have a lot of experience with.

So we're fighting fear, we're tackling potential failure here. We may fail as we try this. Does I the phone ever come up and in your songs? It actually does. But when I do it, I'll record like one and then like bring it in, pitch it the right way. Or I'll, the same ways that I play other instruments, like I'll hear a thing and I'll be like, okay, well, how can I make it? make a chord and I'll be like, and I'll just be like, until I find the right notes for this song. Right.

Okay, well, I think we may desecrate this beautiful instrument, so maybe we bring in an expert. I would love that. Okay, we've got Brandon. He's Juilliard trained. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Play at Carnegie Hall, Broadway all over the place. Come on in. All right.

Get in here. Hello, hello. How are you? How's it going? I'm here to make the xylophone less scary. Okay, okay. What do we need to know? The xylophone has been around.

in different forms, kind of like one of the oldest instruments ever. You know, you think of just taking some planks of wood, putting them over gourds. You know, that was the very early xylophone. This iteration of xylophone kind of came around, maybe around the 19th century. This instrument is used a lot in orchestras and orchestral music. Can be seen on Broadway, you know, a lot of Western classical music. The funny thing is, in the early 20th century, the xylophone was really known for rack time music.

So you might hear something that would go like this. So something like that. The thing about the xylophone, as opposed to other percussion instruments, is that it has a very short sound, right? You know, you hit the note, and then it decays already.

You know, it's different than the vibraphone, which you might be used to, which has the pedal or like a piano, where you hold down the pedal and you can sustain a note, right? The xylophone is much different in that every is just so short. So before we could even learn how to play the xylophone,

we need to learn how to hold the mallets. Okay. All right, so we each got two mallets in hand. So the thing I like to do is just put them down and really hope and pray that the xylophone plays itself. Ah. Oh, well, it didn't. So when I pick up the mallets,

I just like to think of something, keeping it a very loose natural grip, right? Just to break down the technique, I use a three-finger fulcrum, which means that I'm holding the sticks between these three mallets. Just three. Just three. And then, you know, the hands, the back fingers kind of fall back naturally.

I see this a lot. I always see the pinkies out. The pinkies out are bad because this is a very unnatural hand position. You know, so you just want to kind of keep your hand loose. My pinkies were out. Yeah, mine are too. It's a little pretentious, too, and a lot like that. Yeah.

We're just sipping some tea and then playing some xalif. No, put the pinkies back. Okay. And then I always like to think of the back of my hand. facing up towards the ceiling. So we don't want to turn this way. So we want like this. Exactly.

So yeah, give it a go. Play a couple notes. How come yours, you hit it so hard. Yeah. Do you hit one again? That's a... There you go. Perfect.

So now we're going into the technique of actually striking the instrument, right? So I like to think of it as a basketball where it starts up, it dribbles, and then it comes back. where it started. So that's called the full stroke. So, you know, you can kind of think of the mallet head as like a ball that's bouncing. So why do you guys try that? Perfect. That's the full stroke. So it's as simple as... So now the trick is, you know, that was with the right hand. So let's try to just alternate on a single note. You go. Wrong note. Wow. It takes a level of coordination. I clearly don't have. Wow. Okay. This guy.

Great, look at that. Yeah. I think you won. Yeah, totally. The thing that we want to also keep in mind is that with a full stroke, we don't really want to be using our arms because that's such a big muscle. Okay. In order to be able to play really fast, we want to try to isolate the movement with just our wrists.

Let me see these. Oh, my gosh. Seriously, you're in shape, right? Okay. So none of this, none of this, but I just want to see wrists. And just hit whatever? Yeah. Perfect.

He's been practicing. What about you, Benny? Let's hear it. Okay, so am I doing... Wait. Yeah, well, his sounds better down there. Yeah, get down here. There you go.

Yes. Yes. Right. Bam. And are both of you guys right-handed? Left-handed? Right-handed, yeah. So the tendency is that our strong hand is going to be much louder.

You know, in a big exaggeration, it sounds like... Yeah. So we want... How do you do that? The biggest struggle of a percussionist's lifetime is getting both of your hands to be even. Are yours even? Probably not. But I'm trying to get it right.

Yeah, exactly. You're close enough. We can't. Yeah, we won't do that. So a great exercise. So that way we can also start learning the notes of the xylophone is to see how even we can play and with accuracy. That's probably the hardest things about playing xylophone, right? It's hitting the right notes in the right time consistently.

How did you get involved with the xylophone? Most kids grow up playing the guitar, the drums, the keyboard. Yeah. Zylophone. Yeah. I mean, who doesn't now that they see? it. Me.

A lot of percussionists start out on either piano or a drum set. Okay. So, you know, the drum set is kind of the percussion aspect of it. And then the piano is kind of learning the note aspect of it.

Because, for those of you who don't know, the xylophone is the same keys as a piano, right? So these are the white notes. And then these are the black notes. It's just kind of blown up to be like a big, you know, living room table object. Yeah.

So this is our middle C. So this is kind of our guidepost. It's kind of under, you know, there's like 2, 3, 2, 3. So underneath the second one, that is our middle C. So we have a C here, we have a C here, we have a C here, and we have a last one right here. So the first thing that I want to teach you guys is called a chromatic scale. Willie, do you know what a chromatic scale is? Nope, I'm going to let you explain it.

Perfect. The chromatic scale is the easiest thing to start with, I think, because it's just hitting every single note. in order. So you can start on any note, but I'm going to have you guys start on C, and you're just going to start with your right hand, and again, keeping in mind all of the 100 things

we've already learned, our full stroke starting on C, you're just going to hit every note until you get to the next C. So it's probably a ringtone somewhere. I don't think I have that. Do you have that? I don't know if I have that in any way.

Start lefty here. Yeah, either hand. Yeah. That's not. Go ahead. Sorry, yeah. See, it's hard. Yeah, perfect.

It's hard. Wow, it's really hard. So the great thing about being a percussionist is that anybody can be a percussionist, right? As long as you can do this, as long as you can do this, as long as you can make some kind of sound with your body, you're a percussionist. But then we just have to add a few more guidelines to really get the best sound possible. So you guys see where the string runs. This is called the node of the xylophone. We want to avoid that because it's a much deader sound as opposed to...

It's a much fuller sound. Keep it in the middle. So keep it in the middle or on the edge. Whoa. Yeah, you can hit either spot. Whoa. I like to keep it in the centers unless I play really fast. So for example, when you get faster, your full stroke is going to not be as tall because then you can't play as fast, obviously, just how physics works.

So then if I'm playing a chromatic scale really fast, I would do it. So... You were playing the bottom. I was playing the bottom because I was starting to do it. get fast. You know, if I play the center, it's hard to get to it. But if you play it a kind of slower tempo, even tempo, and hands alternating is the key. So why don't you give that another go? Right, left, right, left, right, left.

Isn't that, okay, here we go. Start here. See? Yeah. Ooh, we got it behind the back. Now he's just showing off. Okay, how to... I sack. Okay. It's really hard to do the other hand. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yep. Yeah. I like that one. That was good.

It's pretty good. It's pretty good. It's sounded like a spa. I think we can agree this may not be our instrument of all the instruments, though it's a beautiful one. And I think you're the expert here. Isn't that the conclusion? Has anyone ever done it with this side? Yeah, you could.

It's just a different sound, you know? Really? You know, there's, I like to think of there are no wrong ways to play a percussion instrument unless it damages the instrument. I think this is a wrong way. You know, it comes up sometimes. Really? Yeah, that's no good.

You know, because in the, in the spirit of everything is a percussion instrument, everything can be a percussion sound. You know, you could just, you know, there's a million ways to play. I think I'll be better at playing this part. Yeah. The way yours is, there's so much force. Yeah. And it's so clean.

You hit it clean every time. You know, you're talking about just one step at a time. Just take that first step. Today is our first step. Today is this. Step one. You really, you've been. hitting both the notes. That's your thing.

I split the difference. That's actually amazing. Is that a thing? Yeah, that's something they don't teach you. Put that on your next year in record. Well, you know, the next step would be to play two mallets in one hand. Oh, man. But maybe we'll get there for next week. I think I'm better at hitting two.

I mean, you are doing it. Yours is like a muted sound. Yeah. I like it. It's a technique I use. Yeah. I like his techniques. Wow. Thank you. That was amazing.

Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much. We started our xylophone journey, Betty. We did it. Willie. He's silly. I got a Benny Blanco song. Perfect.

Thank you, man. That was so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. My big thanks to Benny for a great wide open conversation and for a little time at the xylophone. Thanks to Bram.

and for trying anyway to teach us how to play. You can get Benny's new book, F failure. I will call it, wherever you get your books, Tuesday, September 15th. And my thanks to all of you for listening again this week. If you want to hear more of these conversations with my guests every week, be sure to click follow so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune in to Sunday today every weekend on NBC. See these interviews with your own two eyes.

I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Thank you.