Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - Chadwick Boseman (2018)

Episode Date: August 30, 2020

Chadwick Boseman passed away this week at the age of 43, losing a four year battle with colon cancer that he never discussed publicly. In this week's "Sunday Sitdown," Willie Geist revisits his interview with Boseman from 2018, when the actor soared to fame in the groundbreaking film Black Panther. They also discuss what it was like for Boseman to play some of history's most famous figures, including Jackie Robinson and James Brown. (Original broadcast date: March 4, 2018) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of Sunday Sit Down. It's the podcast where we give you the full interview from our cut down interviews on Sunday today on NBC. On Sunday today, I'm thrilled because in TV lands seven or eight minutes is about twice as much as you usually get. But still, when you sit down with somebody for an hour or 45 minutes or whatever it is, you know how much great stuff it's on the cutting room floor. Well, now it's found its way into the podcast. You get the full Sunday sit down interview on this podcast. And today, my guest is the star of the biggest movie in a long, long time, Black Panther. Chadwick Bozeman, Chadwick Bozeman, such a great guy, such a smart guy, such a thoughtful guy, thrust into the spotlight as this movie Black Panther blew up, making more than a billion dollars worldwide. Billion dollars, become one of the top ten highest grossing movies of all time. Chadwick, you probably know him from Jackie Robinson he played. He played Thurgood Marshall. He played James Brown in the movie Get On Up. I actually had interviewed him once before when he was in that movie.

He was shooting in Jackson, Mississippi. Mick Jagger was his executive producer. I got to go sit down with Mick Jagger and Chadwick Boseman. But this was before Chadwick Boseman had blown up in the Black Panther. He is, of course, the Black Panther. He does rain over Wakanda. and he is my guest on Sunday Sit Down. Thanks for doing this.

I appreciate it. Thank you for having me, man. So you are right now riding this crazy tidal wave. We're right in the middle of it right now. Yeah. What is it like to be on it? I think part of it, you know, I'm every step out, literally every place I go to

is a new experience right now. You know, just last night we were up in Harlem and there was a community screening. And I wasn't, I didn't sneak inside that screening and watch it. I still haven't watched it outside of a premiere audience, which is usually celebrities. Right. But I did see the response to it. And it's, you know, it's musical. It's not what you usually see from a movie or play.

It's what you usually see when it's, you know, a rock star. So that's what I think all of us have been experiencing throughout this process is just, you know, not just in the States. In Korea, the response was incredible. Like, I hesitate to say it was like the Beatles, but it felt like that, you know. So it's been great to just see how people have responded with an appreciation for what was done. And we put a lot of hard work into it, so it's fulfilling. What do you think are people responding to exactly? Because there have been a lot of superhero movies, and they do well and they're popular,

but there's some other dimension to this. It almost feels like a movement to a lot of people. People filling theaters, hashtags popping up. What is it about this one that's different, you think? I think there's a thirst for these images. There's a thirst for, you know, a black superhero, an African superhero. There's a truth to it. I think Ryan Coogler came at this from a very, very real place for him.

He was his search for his African experience, his roots. So you see that in the character, Killmonger. I think as far as my character goes, there's a real search for how do I lead and I think people are searching for that, you know, leaders that actually care

about the people. And I think, you know, it's hit sort of a zeitgeist moment even in terms of the women's movement and the strength of the women in the movie. So I think it sort of hits things. Like, I wouldn't even say, intentionally. It's what, you know, the comic book was and all the iterations of it, all the different

writers have brought those elements to it. And so this, it just brought an opportunity, I think, for Joe Robert Cole and Covler and the filmmakers to sort of put all this into one place. And, you know, it just so happens that it's happening at this time. When you were making this movie, Chadwick, did you know you were on to something special? When you got this group together, when you got Ryan in this group of incredible actors and, you know, African American director, executive producer, writers, costume designer,

all the way down the line. Did you know you were doing something special? I think we knew, I think we knew the potential of it. You know, we knew what the source material was. We knew, you know, we wanted to work together like all of the actors that you, that, you know, deny

Lupita, Michael, Forrest Whitaker, Angela Bassett, you know, Martin, and Andy. We all were just like, this is going to be, this cast is amazing. And, you know, Ryan talked to me about that, the casting, you know, early on. And so I was like, oh, this could be,

you always like, oh, I have a, it's like LeBron. Like, I'm building. I'm building the team here. You feel that way. But you never know how people are going to respond to it. You know, I think the hard part with movies like this is that they're judged not just on the artistic merit and quality, which is what I like to focus on more. They're judged on what the numbers are.

Right. And so you could make a great film. And if for some reason people are like, well, I really don't want to see a black superhero, you know, or, you know, I don't want. there to be social relevance in politics inside my superhero movie, then it might not work. So you don't necessarily know

how people are going to respond to it. But I knew we would be doing something that would matter to a group of people. It's crossed the lines of that I don't, there's no boundary of age. There's no, there's no

gender boundary. There's no, there's no, racial boundary across the board people are sort of I don't even know if there's like a political boundary in terms of party you know it's

sort of has transcended all of that yeah well you guys have shown though that you can make a good movie an important movie a movie message and be successful at the box office I mean most experts think you're on your way to a billion dollars at the box office

Is that a crazy thing to hear that number? In some ways, yeah. It's a crazy thing to hear it. But you know when you go into it that that is sort of, you know, that's a mark that people want to hit. And so you say, well, yeah, I hope the movie, you go to bed at night and you say, well, I hope the movie makes a billion dollars

because it's not really about what the, what that number is, it's, you know, you know that that's as a benchmark of success. And so I think yes and no, because it's what you want. I interviewed a couple months ago, just like this Galgadotte coming out of Wonder Woman. And she basically was saying that it was important to her, but she didn't realize how big the impact would be, that she was this woman, a female superhero, that people hadn't seen enough of on the screen and that young girls could relate to. Do you sense that playing Black Panther being the kind of superhero that young boys and girls had never seen before

or seen very, very few and far between up on the screen? Well, I have to say that I got how important it was to a certain extent. We have had black superheroes because I have to always give credit to Wesley Stein's, Robert Townsend, like, you know, that they've existed. But I think it's it, seeing it done on this stage and with this type of backing

is part of what it is. And I feel like, you know, I knew that it would be a great thing. It's, I think it's different because of the resonance of the movie. You know, I think the way the story's being told

and in the particular of the time that's being told in, like, I'm actually getting to see, you know, a relevance that I didn't know. So, again, yes, and then no. So it's a, it's a movie that's a hit, obviously, but it's a movie we haven't seen much of. Why do you think Hollywood hasn't made this movie until 2018? Because there, I mean, I think part of it is, you know, people do what, what they think work. what they think works. And I feel like, you know, that's, it's lazy in a way.

Because we're supposed to be a creative, this is supposed to be a creative medium. And so I hate to say it that way, but I think there are certain things that people, like hang those people have in place, like they don't see a movie and say, well, we did the numbers and we can't, it's not going to work, you know.

We're not going to make that. The only thing we can put into that type of movie is this. And so I think it hasn't happened because the system has sort of been set in people's minds a particular way. And I always, you know, anytime people would say to me, well, you know, a movie with a black lead won't work internationally, I always said that makes no sense whatsoever because we've seen it happen. We've seen Will Smith, you know, do numbers internationally. We've seen the success of Denzel Washington. We've seen these things time and time and time again. But somehow the industry goes back to what its old forms are.

So I don't really know why that is except it's the same thing that's made America be stuck, that there's racism, sexism, all those things. that hold us back from progressing are part of the movie industry. And the movie industry is made up of people. So luckily now we have people in place that can change some of those things. This happens not just because of Ryan Cougler and the cast. It happens because you have a Kevin Feig. It happens because you have a Bob Eiger.

It happens because those people who are in those power positions see an opportunity and a need to make the industry do something different. So let's see what happens as far as, you know, other execs and other people in power positions, you know, following that lead in other companies. It's undeniable now, though. You guys have proven that it works. So what's the message that you think Hollywood gets off the success of Black Panther? Be creative. Really do what you're supposed to do as an artist. Be creative and use all of the culture that we have in this country. Don't just use white culture, European culture, use Latin American culture, Latin culture,

use the Asian culture, use, you know, obviously, African-African-American culture in the diaspora. Be creative. What is this movie about to you? Because there have been a million think pieces written about what it means, who it's about, who it's addressed to. When you think about Black Panther,

what is it about? It's, you know, ultimately it's about personal identity. And then it's about identity within, the larger frame within the world. You know, my character emerges as the hero in the movie. But I think Kilmonger's character is also very, very heroic.

And you're watching this movie through his eyes. You're seeing Wakanda, you're learning about Wakanda to a certain degree through his eyes. And so, you know, and also through, to try. child's eyes, but I think what you see in that struggle and what you see in these different versions of hero is, you know, my character emerges basically say this is not only am I going to find my place within myself and within my tradition, but then what does that mean for the rest of the world. Who am I going to be for the rest of the world? What am I going to give to the rest of the world? And in doing that, he has to confront his ancestors. He has to confront the wrongs, you know,

the sins of the father are visited on the son or on the children. So if this great, even though it's fictitious, it's a fantasy, if this great nation can, you know, look at their ancestors and say, oh, you know, we got all of this wealth and all this wisdom from them, but here's what they did wrong and here's where we can do better than Europe can do the same thing.

American can do the same thing. And so I think that's the message is that your greatness doesn't make you, doesn't stop you from seeking to do better, advancing. There's an interesting dynamic in the film, and you've talked about it,

which is this killmonger being African-American and Tachala being African-American and the African-American character going back and, as you said, confronting his roots. What does that say about to you the real-world African-American experience, which is that in a lot of ways you're cut off from your past and you don't know how to trace it back? Right. I mean, just look at the map. You know, look at the map of, like, for me, if I look at the map of Africa, And I look at the lines, look at the borders. You know, those lines are drawn from colonialism. And so if I, there's a very, very important thing that I did.

And I had done it previously in a smaller way before the movie. And I did it, it did further research. I went further up my branch, the branch of my tree, to find more information about my ancestors. But, you know, previous to DNA testing, you couldn't do that. Right. You couldn't say, oh, I'm from this place in Africa. So there's a lot of people, they take an ancestry test.

So they go to ancestry.com and they'll find out, oh, you're 70% West African. Right. 80% West African. And so they start saying, oh, I'm 80% black, which is not necessarily a good thing to to be judging yourself based upon quantity and quality of culture. That's not specific. What I did, and I took a test called African ancestry, and it's the only DNA test that you can take

that has the actual cultures of ethnic groups. So I can find out I'm not just generally from West Africa or generally from this country, Ghana, Senegal, Mozambique, Nigeria. Instead, I could go, oh, you're Yoruba from Nigeria. You are Jola from Guinea-Bissau. You are Limba from Sierra Leone.

You are Mende from Sierra Leone. So now I can find a specific pathway back to what my ancestors used to do what they used to eat, how they used to dance, you know, all those different things. could never be done before. And so I think that connection is something that, you know, this movie, you see Kilmonger,

he had, his father has left him a very specific pathway, jewelry, language, stories, an oral tradition that a lot of African Americans don't have. And so that is part of what has been. severed from you. So that journey is something I wanted to do. Because, one, I had to play the character who does know those things. Right. He knows his ancestors back, you know, thousands of years.

You know, that's something that it was very, very difficult for me to do, for me to play in this movie, truthfully, if I had not at least as an African-American, tried to make those connections. That must be an incredibly moving thing to do. discover and on earth to finally know where it comes from in a continuous thing that you have to you have to you know if you if it's something that you feel like is important that you would have to do you know right now what's what's I think you said what's in what's different about this

movie um you know in some ways it isn't different we've seen people dress up for movies before you know with Star Wars for instance like you know you know the onset of that sort of creating this new idea of a blockbuster. This is similar in some ways to that experience when people dress with people dressing up. But there's a cultural aspect and a yearning with this. So you see people dressing up. But what if, you know, the next time we do another Black Panther movie, people are not just dressing up in a general, from a general standpoint.

they've taken the test and they're like, I'm gonna wear what's specific to me. Right. I'm gonna find my own, you know, what kind of, so to speak. There's something in that. And I think we even saw when we were Korea because people were coming in,

you know, there were journalists from throughout Asia and they were wearing their own traditional wear and saluting us with the like doing the wakonda salute and a lot of times we we try to water down culture when we start talking about diversity and we're all the same but that's not really what it's about it's about us being able to be to to have identity amongst each other and coexist and and not water things down and we saw that happening their response to the movie was that that I can now show you my culture. You brought so much to a character that already existed for years in a comic book,

but I was reading about all the research you did. You insisted on getting the accent in there, talking about your ancestry, all the research you did. You said there are pieces of Mandela in there, that President Obama made some of it possible. Right. What were those additional pieces that you could bring that Marvel didn't already have in there? Well, I think, you know, the comic book, from the standpoint of all of the writers have picked from throughout Africa.

So I guess the better way to answer that is like, we saw this as an opportunity. And it's not just me. It's, you know, Ruth Carter, Hannah Beechler, who is the production designer, it's a wardrobe designer. Everybody that was on this movie, even hair and makeup, they saw this as an opportunity to pull from all of the things they loved about the continent of Africa in the world. And so it was a sense that if Wakanda is this technologically advanced ancient culture, then there was a dispersion of ideas that went out of Wakanda. And so I could pull from any place because it could have come from Wakanda anyway. Like, it's the older version of that. And so you sort of see that in the tribes that each tribe has a different type of clothing,

a different type of hairstyle, a different type of color that they identify with. And so, you know, for instance, the Jabari tribe with Winston, he chose a Nigerian accent. So what he's basically saying is, you know, even though it's not true, in my fantasy, the Nigerian style of speaking came from out of Wakanda. That was a tribe in Wakanda. So it's like taking this larger world and condensing it down to a smaller atom. And so that was the concept. So although some people may say, well, they're just choosing like arbitrarily from, it's not that. It's a very specific way of honing down.

what this thing is. I don't think people realize what thought went into all these pieces while they're watching it. So much. So much. So much.

So much. So much. So serious. Yeah. On a lighter note, the suit, the costume. A little bit claustrophobic

in there at first. A little tight, little hot. A little bit. A little bit. More than a little bit. What in a little bit? What did it feel like

having to run around and fighting that thing? The funny thing about it is at first, it's like, like, you basically are you serious? But then, honestly, you start to think about, you know, that all soldiers throughout time have had uncomfortable armor.

So you just start thinking about it as armor. To be honest with you, it's like, you know, if I was a knight, would it, you know, and I had it on this metal thing in my face, would that be comfortable? No. You know, even if you see police officers and you see them running after somebody, if you see the belt of stuff that they have to wear all around, like even them pulling their guns, like it's very difficult for them to do that with that gear on. So it's something you just basically say, well, that's part of what this is. And at certain points, it helps you because if you have to fall, if you have to, you know, take a hit or something, you have something in between you and that other thing. you sort of appreciated it at times.

You know, that's the best way to say it. You were talking earlier about your family and how excited they are about the success of this movie. Is it a humbling and crazy thing for you to think about your early days in Anderson, South Carolina, and see where you are right now today? Oh, man, there's no humbling, no more thing that they can be humbling than that. Like, it's, it's, uh,

And mainly because it's not something that as a kid there, I would have thought would be possible. You know, it took several stages of things to be like, oh, if I can be here, then I can do this. Maybe I can do that. Yeah. You know, what I love now is that there are little kids now who live there who live there, who are like, yeah, I can go. Hollywood and become a movie star. Like, and that's, you know, that's it a very, very emotional thing to even consider that that you have a part in that.

That you have a part in that. You've changed what's possible for a lot of young kids. Right. It's crazy. Your first production, you correct me if I'm wrong, was Crossroads, right? When you were in high school, we were writing and directing that. Man, you did your research. Jeez.

It's my job. You got yours. I've got that. But it was born, I mean, it's amazing to think about this, given where you are right now, but your creative career and your career on stage was born out of tragedy in high school. Right.

Yeah, it, um, essentially I had, you know, a, a teammate from a, from an AU team who was shot and killed. And I don't like to talk about it too much, but, you know, basically I wrote a play in response to it. It wasn't about his death, but it was more so just me sort of trying to deal with the fact that it happened. And, you know, it addressed, you know, why my community allowed it to happen. And so it was, I guess, a healing process. for me and I got my friends together and we performed it. And so that was really the first time that I knew what it was like

to create a story, be on stage and deliver something and have an audience respond to it in a way that was meaningful. I think that's, there's certain things I think as an artist. you have moments that you're always trying to get back to. You know, now I can think about the first time I was playing a lead in a play, and I felt like I had like a good performance. So you're always trying to get back to that performance. But that was probably that feeling that response from the audience,

is something that you're always trying to, like, recreate in some sort of way. And then it inspired you enough, I guess, when you went to Howard, did you go for directing more, really, than... I went as a actor, right? Yeah, I went as a... Because that first experience was a directing experience.

It wasn't... You know, I was more worried about, you know, is this person going to come out for that cue on time? Is that light on? You know, I was worried about that in that first experience. is the music cue on. Right. And so I, you know, I entered into this storytelling world from that perspective

and never really saw myself doing this. Never really saw myself being on stage or being in front of the camera. So where did that change then? Where did you go from the guy behind the scenes to the guy, front and center? It was a process. It wasn't, it wasn't like one thing that made me. know that. I think there were I had some experiences on stage that let me know that I should act sometimes and I think you know I had one of my my directing advisor

who's also a great acting teacher Vera Katz at Howard University she taught directing from the perspective of you know You should be an actor's director. You should know how to talk to actors. So in order to do that, it's very difficult to do it without being an actor, without knowing what an actor has to go through. How can you know what questions to ask? To make an actor, not tell an actor what they do,

but to make the actor come to his own conclusions and inspiration to give a performance. And so because of that, you know, if you were in her classes and under her tutelage, you had to take acting classes, you know, even if you were never going to act. And so I think that was part of it. And I think it was, in addition to that, it was Felicia Rashide. You know, she came to Howard during, it was actually two years that she taught a class there. but she would come down once a week and teach a class. And so taking that class and sort of being under her tutelage,

just it made me feel like I need to be on stage a little bit more than I thought I should. She must be very proud of you, given that she planted the seat a little bit. I hope so. I hope so. You know, she's an extraordinary woman. So I hope she's proud of me. So there's a story that to get you guys to Oxford to go study over there. Felicia needed to raise a little money to send you over there.

Right. Can you tell the story of what happened there? I mean, it's very simple. She was like, you know, in a position where she could call her friends up and say, hey, I got, I have some students that don't have the money to pay for this in addition to their, you know, the Howard tuition, and I was one of them. And so she called up her friends and said, you know, can you pay for it? And I didn't know who paid for me.

Like, I actually got a letter when I came back and said, this is your beneficiary. And, you know, the person who paid for me was Denzel Washington. So it's been something that, you know, I've been something that, you know, I'm a person. I wrote him a letter. As soon as I got, I was like, oh, my gosh, I got a write him. Thank you. Did you know this was happening? Or you just got this letter and all of a sudden?

Oh, what do you mean that I know? Did you know that Felicia had called her friends? I knew she had called her friends. I just didn't know who they were. You know, I didn't know who it was. I was like, I'll take this scholarship to go. Yeah. And, yeah, it was, it was one of those things that you just sort of like always refer back to it.

Like, that's cool. You know, like, that's inspirational. You know, that helps me to go a little bit further. The fact that she did it and the fact that, you know, I'm, he, he probably didn't know, he didn't know one of us from the other, you know, and there were other people who also paid for, for students. Have you had a chance to meet him and tell him that story? I have.

Yeah, I have. I have. So, recently, recently, it actually. happened. My days are running together, so it was either last week. Oh, real real real? Yeah, yeah. Or it was the week before.

Just before the movie actually came out, that's actually, that's actually. And so during the New York premiere, he came and he said, I haven't met you yet. And I said, yes, I got something to tell you. And I think he knew already because Felicia Hebray had. have reminded him. What's that moment like to meet themselves? It's so much. I don't even want to, I don't even want to go there.

It's too much. It's too much. No, it was, it was amazing. It was amazing. He's, he's, he's, everything you would think he would be is, you know, sometimes when you meet, you know, people that have influenced you, that are your idols, you, you, you, they disappoint you, you know what I'm saying? Like, they're not, they're not as.

as cool as you thought they would be, but he was even more extraordinary than I would think. That's all I'm going to say, why, right? Okay, look at you. That's all I'm saying. You're still processing it, I see. Before Black Panther people knew you best from your biopics from 42, get on up and Marshall, was that a conscious decision for you to do biopics and play real-life characters and trailblazers and groundbreakers?

Or were those just the roles that came up as you went along? No, it's probably more complicated than, like, it's like, part of it is that it's what came up. You know, it's what came up. And, but the other part is, I think as an actor, you're saying knowing yes a lot. And people are saying knowing yes to you. That's what this is. It's like you're auditioning and people are like, no, no, no, no. And you hear that more than you hear anything else.

Like the percentage of nose is what you have to deal with. And then you get to a point where you have incoming cause. And you have to then say, you then have to say no. So part of it, with 42, it was a no-brainer for me to playing that role and taking on Jackie Robinson. After that, I wasn't looking for another biopic, you know, so I wasn't trying to play James Brown. But yet, we had, I can't even tell you how many biopics came in. Like, names of people, you'd be like, whoa, him, him too, him too? Him. You had to get off that path, right? Yeah. So, you know, when I got that script, I was like, you know, for getting on up,

the first time I saw it, it was that. And I'm not going to tell you what the other one was. But I wanted to read the other one. And I was like, I know I forget that. Nobody should ever do that. And I would say at least six months past before it came up again. And it came up again twice. And I said, no, no.

And it was only because Tate, I got on a phone call with Tate Taylor. And if you know, Tate, he could sell water to a well. He convinced me to come in and just read. And, you know, when I read it, and I'm talking about literally I went in there and read it. Like, it wasn't, but when I started to read it, it started to come alive. And so it was the audition for James Brown convinced me. It wasn't something that I necessarily wanted to do. It just sort of started to come off the page.

once I started reading it. And I probably was the least prepared for that audition of anything I had done in like four years. And it just was something I was supposed to do, I think. And Thurgood Marshall, it happened mainly because of Reginald Hutland, my relationship with him. You know, I wanted to work with him. We wanted to work together.

And he was convincing because, you know, I felt like I could trust him. I felt like I could trust him with that material. Trust him to tell the story the right way. And he also pulled out the card of having John Marshall, Thurgood Marshall's son, had written a letter and saying, I want you to play this. Because my hangings were more like, I don't look like him. I don't know if I should do that because I don't look like any. He was like, no, it's the essence of the person that I feel like you can capture,

which is a very interesting challenge when you're, you know, a lot of times you can depend on physical things to sort of, you know, help tell the story, the artistry for you to go, okay, well, how do I internally do this? and then find some physical things that, that, you know, hit at him, but don't even try to, like, imitate it at all because it's the Thurgood Marshall that's in you. That's an interesting, like, challenge. And so regardless of whether anybody else thinks I should do it or not, let me do that because I'm going to grow from that. that's so it hasn't been a plan it's been more so

these are the challenges that I need to to take on at this particular time well your next challenge is to go to Jimmy Fallon so I'm going to let you go

oh wow thank you so much really enjoy to talk to you thank you congratulations and everything thank you man my thanks again to Chadwick Bozeman

such a good dude for that conversation and thanks again to all of you for listening to Sunday sit-down If you like what you hear, be sure to click subscribe so you never miss an episode. And of course, check out Sunday today every Sunday on NBC. I'm Willie Geist.