Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - Ed Sheeran

Episode Date: August 28, 2022

In this week’s Sunday Sitdown, Willie Geist gets together with the Ed Sheeran to talk about his latest album, Equals, his new daughter, and his path from busking on the streets of London to the highest-grossing tour in the history of music. (Original broadcast date January 2, 2022) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another edition of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks as always for clicking and listening along. I don't say this lightly, but I've got one of the biggest stars on the face of the planet for you this week. His name is Ed Sheeran. Ed and I got together back in 2017 and had a great conversation during the height of his success around the album Divide, which produced a bunch of number one hits, and the highest grossing tour ever. He was on the road for like two and a half years and passed you two as the highest grossing tour ever. And by the way, it's just him with a guitar and a loop pedal on a stage.

This time we got together to talk about his latest album. It's called Equals and everything that's changed in his life since we last spoke, including getting married to a childhood friend named Cherry and becoming a father to a beautiful baby girl. To set the scene for you a bit, Ed and I got together just a few hours before he was set to play the jingle ball concert at Madison Square Garden. It's a big concert that they have every year around the holidays where all the biggest pop stars with the biggest hits of the year play one concert together. And we got together at one of his favorite bars in New York for a pint. Yes, he pulled a pint for me. So you may hear a little buzzing in the background because we are in a bar in New York City.

So please sit back, relax, and enjoy a conversation with the incredibly talented and incredibly charming. Ed Sheeran right now on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. It's good to see you, man. It's been a while. I know. It's been four years. Four years, and a few things have changed in your life since then. You turned 30.

You got married. You got a sweet baby girl. Yeah. Put out this new album. Does it feel existentially different to you to have all these things in your life now than the last time I saw you? Yeah, I think especially on promotional trips like this, because there's like, usually I would be out on private.

promo and this would be my sole focus. And I, sometimes when I'm doing stuff in my head, I'm like weighing it up of being like, but I could have spent this time with my daughter, you know? So like sometimes, not saying this in particular, but the other day, like an interviewer canceled and we ended up doing it on Zoom. And I was like, I could have done this at home and then spent time, you know, like, so there's that element of it. But I'm fine back tonight and very excited.

Is it, when you sit down to write music for this new album for equals, Clearly, if you listen to every song almost, there are touches of how your life has changed. It's your last album. So how much of your family, your new family, went into this record? Well, it was quite gradual making the record, and it was all started being written pre-marriage and baby,

so it's sort of like a journey from there to now. I mean, all of my albums from my debut up to now have been a reflection of pretty much, much a mirror image of what my life is at that time. Like, if you go back and listen to Plus, it's an 18-year-old boy who's just moved to London and had a breakup and is trying to figure out if he wants to be in the music industry or whatever. And then the second album is me moving to the States and touring around and living Los Angeles and blah blah.

Third album is me traveling the world, settling down. And then this album is, yeah, pandemic, baby, marriage. Yeah, I don't really know what the next one's going to be. Well, you just kind of stepped off after Divide. You stepped off this crazy ride that you were on. You run tour for like two and a half years or something like that. The highest grossing tour in the history of music, all of those things. And then you came back and you said, maybe that was it.

Maybe that was it for me in music. Did you really think that way? Well, no, not like for me in music. I've always, like music's my hobby. And I started playing music because I loved it, not because I thought I would ever make a job out of it. Music isn't a job. Music isn't a thing where if you're in high school, people go, hey, this is like a viable job that you can go, into you know it's actually see you're kind of frowned upon when I'm dropped out of school

all of my friends are like okay yeah good good luck with that and then it does work and then suddenly your hobby becomes your job and it wasn't I wasn't necessarily wanting to step away from music but I was definitely wanted to step away from it being a professional hobby and you know the kind of scrutiny that comes with it like I enjoy writing songs but I don't enjoy putting them out and then having them savaged you know having a song that you love and then go it's basically like taking out your heart heart and offering it up to a bunch of people and you don't know whether they're going to like it or not, you know? So I was sort of in two minds about that because I really enjoy music, but I, sometimes

the scrutiny that comes with it is not that fun. So there was a chance, sure, you'd pick up your guitar, you'd always make music, but there's a chance you wouldn't put out another record at that point. Was that the way you were thinking? Yeah, not to swear on TV, but it wasn't retiring, but it was retiring from giving up, like it was like giving up actually. caring that much about, you know, I would put out a record and not feel like I had to do a four-month promotional run for it. I just kind of put it out and move on and not look at any of it. That was where I thought I would get to, but I just don't think I'm there yet. Was any of that exhaustion from that ride you had been on with Divide? You were out there

so long. It did so well. Were you just tired in some way? No, not necessarily tired because I really enjoy playing gigs, but it's the kind of external pressure that is put on from having that success because that success was a runaway success. The album was bigger than people thought it was going to be. The Shape of You was bigger than people thought it was going to be. The tour was bigger than people thought it was going to be. And then suddenly you come to the end of this thing

and you have the biggest streaming song in the world, the most attended tour in the world, the highest-grossing tour in the world, the albums sold 25 million copies. And then everyone's kind of looking at you going, hey, yeah, we're going to do it again a bit better. And I didn't want that pressure. And what I quite like about putting out

the number six collaborations project was because it wasn't really, a solo album, it kind of cleansed the palette a little bit because it obviously was never going to do as well as Divide because it wasn't a solo record and it wasn't kind of pushed out in the same way. There wasn't a big promo tour and a music tour around it. And that sort of relinquished the pressure a little bit. It was just sort of like, and here's something and now let me just go off and make an album without any of this noise. And then the pandemic intervened. So you're sort of forced to stay home and be with your family a little bit there. So at what point did you

say, okay, now I am ready to take the next step and put out equals? It was January of this year. Wow, yeah, January of this year. Yeah, that was the time I was like, okay, I'm ready to go in studio again. And that's what Bad Habits was written. Be right now. Joker McQueen, stop the rain. Yeah, that was where the bulk of it actually got finished.

And did Cherry encourage you to get back out there? Did she say you need to be making music? Yeah, massively, because Cherry saw the toll it was taking on my happiness. You know, I'd get very sad about everything to do. Because it is my hobby. Like, I love writing, and I just wasn't writing or performing. So she was very, very, what's the word, encouraging about that. And she's very, very encouraging about these promo trips as well.

Like, she wants me to work as hard as I possibly can. So it's no small thing to put out an album like this, obviously, to write the songs, conceive of it. So what did you want to say? with equals that you hadn't said with those previous albums. Obviously, as you say, this is a snapshot of where you are in your life. But where do you start with that first blank page? Honestly, there's no divine intervention there. It's just basically you start writing songs,

and then at some point you stop writing songs, and then you find a record in there. I've never really done a sort of concept album. I mean, looking at the album, it's about the concept is, turning 30, getting married, having a kid, losing a friend. is the concept, but I didn't walk into that being like, and here it is. It just naturally happens. And for the next record, that's the approach I'll take as well. You just write songs and hope that they're good. And bad habits was obviously huge. You sat down,

it came out in June and it carried through the summer and still now on the charts. I've never actually had a song like that either, because when that song came out, it was kind of seen as a bit of a commercial, because it sort of came out and I think everyone expected it to go number one and it didn't, but then it stuck around and it has just been there. And it's sort of like it, it's a silent hit, if that makes sense. It's like it's not, it's not ever hit number one, but it's stuck in the top 10 for five months or whatever. And I've never had anything like that. It either like either goes in and out or it goes one and then out, it never really sticks. And it's outlasted whatever was number one at that point. It just

rides it out, right? Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't be able to tell you, but yeah, I guess so. seems like it. So that song, I remember when I heard it the first time, I said, oh, that's Ed Shearin. Yeah. It's a little bit of a different sound. Was that something you wanted to do with your first single? Yeah, I'm just in, I'm in a position where I'm known as the man with the acoustic guitar who sings love songs. And because of perfect and thinking out loud and I guess the 18 to a point, even though that's not a love song. But that can get tiresome for people. You know, I don't want to just release the same album again and again and again. And it's always nice to find different things that you can put out that can surprise people.

I'd never done a solo dance track. I loved the fact that I've sung really quietly on it, and it was turned up really loud, and it's very, very soft, and it doesn't really sound like me, and people would have to shazem it to find... I like that. I like that element of it, rather than me coming out with a ballad being like, oh, Ed's brought out another song, and that's a ballad.

Because there are ballads on the record, but you can get to them after you've done the interesting ones. But it's sort of disorienting, probably to your fans, to say, oh, is this an entirely new sound from Ed? Yeah, but this is what happened on Shape of View. I put out Shape of View, and although that ended up being like a big hit, like, none of my fans liked that the week it came out. None of them.

They were all like, at least we have Castle on the Hill to listen to. Like, this is it. But now I play bad habits at shows, and it is the best reaction. So sometimes I think you go with your gut with songs. Like if I made songs from my fan base, I'd be brutally disappointed if they didn't like them. So I make songs that I like, and then I put them out, and if no one likes them, at least I like them.

And if people do like them, then great. But you have to be able to stand by your work, whatever. Like if bad habits completely bombed and everyone was like, we hated that, at least I could be like, well, I liked it, and I was just wrong this time. But whatever, we move on to the next one. Right. Your fans hung in with you on that one, and it obviously did well. I think, mate, I think radio.

I think it was right. I think that radio hammering at home sort of brought people back. rounds me. Right. It's one of those you hear it a few times and you start to get it. It's definitely like a third listen kind of song. You mentioned ballads. So wedged in between shivers and bad habits is first times. Yeah. Which is a beautiful song. Thank you. What went into that? That was the first song I completed for the album. I wrote it in Nashville and um you know I I've achieved a lot in my career and none of which was my intention at the beginning of my career. It's not like I set a list of like I have to play Wembley Stadium. I have to have a platinum arm, I have to do this. I just wanted to

make music and make a living doing it. So all of these achievements came and you find yourself then chasing the achievements. You know, when Wembley Stadium becomes possible, you then go, okay, how can I get there? I have to do this, to do this, do this. But then I would get to Wembley, play it, and then be like, okay, what's the next thing? And never really truly be happy with the result. And what I found playing Wembley one day, coming backstage, feeling not anything, it was just a gig, even though it was an amazing gig, it was just a gig. Being backstage and having a beer with my now wife

and then feeling so much and being like, oh my God, such a small moment can actually mean way more than such a massive moment. And then I looked back at all our, it's called first times, all our first times, and wrote about them, things that were so insignificant at the time, like our first date was in Brooklyn at a pizza place

and at the time it was just, we were going for pizza, and now we're married with a kid and that was our first date. So that first time is so insignificant at the time, but now so important. The first time we got drunk together, the first time we listened to a song and cried together,

the first fight we had. You know, like all of these things were so, just in the moment, whatever, move past them. But in a timeline of a relationship, are really important. When you write a song like that and play it for the first time for your wife, what's her reaction?

Yeah, I think she really liked that one. I wasn't living with her at this point. I was living in Nashville, so I think I might have sent it to her, or maybe I played it to her when I got home. It was the one where whenever we'd have, because I've had it for quite a while, whenever we'd have people around for dinner

and then we'd get drunk, it was the one where everyone would always ask to hear that one. They were like, I'll get the guitar and play that song. And you're happy to oblige? Always, yeah. Take requests? I'm a performer. You know, you know, it doesn't take much to get me to,

there's so many times I met like weddings and someone would just be like, with a microphone, you just go, okay, cool. Do you do it? Yeah, because I'm, as a performer, you buzz off it. really do. I mean, it depends, depends on this situation. I wouldn't have done it in my own wedding. But yeah, if you were performing, you love being on stage. I can't imagine how many requests you get at a wedding. Ed Shearant's here. Can't do the song? Sometimes I feel like I get

invited for that. You know, I arrive and suddenly they go, oh my God, are they no thinking out loud as well? Come on. Just happen to have an acoustic guitar here, plug in and go. Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Stick around to hear more from Ed Shearan right after the break. Welcome back. Now more of my conversation with Ed Shearren. As we talk about things that have changed in your life, you also lost a dear friend of yours, Michael. And there's another beautiful song on the album called Visiting Hours, which is moving not just because of your own experience with him, but anyone who listens to that is going to connect in some way with someone that they've lost. Who was Michael in your life? And what did he mean to you? And what does he still mean to you today?

Michael was just the best person He was my music promoter in Australia But it was, I can't That doesn't sum him up enough He started off, we started doing shows together And then I started staying with him All the time when I was in Australia

Living with him and his family And then they made friends with Cherry And then we went travelling there And stayed with them, road trips with them And then when they'd come out to England With their family, they'd stay with us and the night before my wedding was a dinner with me, Cherry, Michael and Sue,

and we watched Greece together the night before, and then we drove to the wedding together. Like, they're really, really special people in my life. And, yeah, it was a, it was a shock. It was a shock because I know when people, whenever someone passed away, someone would be like, oh, I was just speaking to them, but, like, I would speak to him most days,

so I literally was, and it would just happen. and yeah so it was a shock and that song was a way of processing it and releasing it felt odd I had to really speak to his family and make sure that they were okay with me with me putting it out and they were across all the artwork for it and the mix and everything

and I've got friends of his that he was involved in their careers to sing on the track and stuff and I think what's nice about the song is I don't feel like it's about my situation with Michael as much anymore because it belongs to so many other people And I have, I met a guy the other day who's mum had passed away, and he has a fractured relationship with his dad.

And he said, he sent that song with no, nothing else, just sent that song over message to his dad. And his dad knew exactly what he meant. And they shared this moment of just being like, I understand, yes, I understand, with a song. So I feel music like that is important. Music can be a language for anything. Even if, even like happy times, like Cherry sends me,

Cherry loves country music. So she'll send me a country song and be like, hey, thinking of you. Yeah. Is that the best part of your job that you sit in a room alone and write a song that's maybe personal to you? And then it goes out into the world and it comes back to you and all these incredible ways of someone saying, I have this experience in my life and this fix something for us. I think it's an incredible part, but it's not my favorite part. My favorite part is actually creating it.

The feeling you get from creating. I write so many songs that never get released that are just fun in the moment to write. But it's definitely a positive thing. What I like about songwriting is you can have a really, really negative, like you can have a spiral and be as down and dark as can be and write a song from that. And then through that comes light. You know, you release it and then suddenly good things start happening because of the song that you wrote at your lowest point. And other people connect to it. And suddenly it's a, I think that's what's amazing about songwriting is it is a form of therapy.

But it's a form of therapy that brings so much joy to people. and yourself. It's therapy for other people too. I was listening to the song in the car, in visiting hours, and immediately you think of someone that you wish you could have that last visit with and can go speak to and bring them back. Because I think with visiting hours, it's not necessarily about bringing them back, because I know that death is a part of life, but it's about clearing the air before. Because we're all going to die, and when we do pass away, we will spend time with the people that we've lost. But it's about clearing the air before then and being like cool well I'll see you in however many years rather than what I didn't like

about the situations it's so final and there's so many things that aren't left to say what was what was lovely about it was my 30th a week before he passed away and my wife got video messages from everyone that I love and he sent this like seven minute message about all his favorite memories with me and all the best times you had and so I had this this video so at least like I have that but there's no, I don't know, I wish there was just five minutes, just to be like, you know. Yeah, have those last things said. And he left you with a legacy of a lot of wine in your wine cellar. Oh, my God.

Even more, even more, because the winery sent more. Sent more, yeah. So his drink was tenfold 707, which I thought, because he drunk it like it was $5. He would drink it out of a paper cup, coffee cup. So I assumed it was like $5.10. So when he came to stay at my house, I just ordered. a bunch and then I've got the bill and they're like four hundred dollar bottles each. So I had like all of these bottles in in the cellar that me and him actually got through most of them.

Then the night he passed away there was seven left and me my, me my mum, my dad, my security guard and my wife just sat and finished them, which was actually really really nice. But then more came. I've actually started collecting vintage ones. Whenever vintage ones pop up in England, I buy them. Because whenever I like, I have it really randomly, he made me a statue of himself. Oh. So we finished tour in Australia and he said, what do you want as a gift? And I was like, life-size bronze statue of you.

And he was like, cool. So he had this thing made. What was funny is I had him one made of me that's 10 foot and a ton. Oh. And I shipped it to him. And it's just, it didn't make it in time. I mean, he saw pictures of it, but it didn't make it in time. and it's just turned up at his house and his wife's like,

what do I do with this 10-foot-one-ton statue? It was weird getting it done as well, because I got it done by a sculptor in my hometown, but he was quite hush-hush about it, and he'd have loads of people that would work in the local area working on it. But they'd be like, why is Ed getting a 10-foot statue himself made? This is a bit weird, yeah. He's really changed, Ed.

I know, I know. It's, yeah, it was pretty, I mean, it's pretty ostentatious. That's incredible. What a special relationship. You're about to, in just a few minutes, go over and play the jingle ball. Are you ready to get back out and do another one of these big tours for equals? 100%.

Yeah. I feel quite lost not being on stage because that's so much of my purpose. And I have been on stage since I was like 11 years old, just constantly. Just any stage that there is, I would hop up and play. So I really, really like the gigs are back on. And, you know, we're finding a way to do shows, whether it's by masks or tests to get to get in and blah, blah, blah. So I'm glad that the shows are coming back. I'm excited to get back on tour.

And I can't see the tour stopping. I'm going to be going to be going for a while. I'm going to be going for a while, yeah. Does it change your calculus at all to have a baby at home? Or the baby comes with you on tour, maybe? It definitely comes with me on tour. And the special thing about the tour, like it was really a slog at the beginning of my career

because he would play five shows in a row one day or five shows in a row, and it would be, you know, when it splits a minivan, you go. but the luxury of playing these large venues is no one goes midweek, so they have to be weekend. So it's Friday, Saturday, Sunday, every week. So I have the week at home, and then I'll take, like, I mean, we're going to spend time in each city. We're going to try and do it on the train or talking to VW about an electric campervan. I want to travel to every show as electric as possible. And you've got to film that.

It sounds like a reality series. Yeah. The Shiren's hit the road. Oh, my God. Yeah, no, that, I don't think I'd work well on a reality scene. Anybody who knows you, Ed, anybody's worked with you for a long time, says you just haven't changed, really, from 10 years ago when you were opening for Snow Patrol. I think I have, though, and I think that's natural. Well, you've grown for sure as a person, but I'm just saying in terms of your generosity and humility and things like that, how do you keep your head about you when you're standing in front of 80,000 screaming fans who are singing all these lyrics back to you that you wrote?

I'd liken it to two things, like a light switch and like Spider-My. I honestly think like Spider-Man is Peter Parker and then he puts on the mask and then suddenly he's the superhero can do all these things and he just flips the switch and then suddenly he's he's that guy and I think I think like I obviously have an ego on stage because you have to walk out in front of 80,000 people and know that you can entertain them and you have to have an ego to do that you have to walk on stage and be like I've got this because if you if you don't the gig's not going to go too good but you have to switch it off when you step off stage that's the that's the key and that's not.

not sometimes the balance not everyone gets, where you step off stage and you're still the guy. And I switch on, I go off on stage and entertain, and when I come off, I just go back to it. I feel like there's two separate people. There's my full name, my stage name, as you were, and then there's just me, singular name. You know, I don't want to talk about myself in the third person,

but there's two different stuff. And man, I know from you as well, because you are a presenter. Like, there's, you have to have two different. You're walking in this view with confidence. You like, I've got this. You know, I've researched it. But you at home, you know, your husband, your father, your friend, and career and that

are very separate. And it has to be separate. But it's harder for you, because if you walk out the door this bar right now, the world can't turn off the switch. They see it sharing and they descend on you. But that's the adjustment that I mean, I've had almost coming up to 11 years in this with that amount of attention. and you just find ways to have it fit in your life.

Like, I don't go anywhere unplanned, and if I do, it will be at random times in the day. So I would never, ever, ever go to Central London to a bar on a Friday night, ever, ever. But I might go to Central London to a bar on a Tuesday afternoon. You know, kind of have the same sort of thing. Now you're going to have people walking around London on Tuesday afternoons looking for you. You've given up your secret. But it's the thing.

I'll always try and go somewhere, like really... I love going in place and they'll be like, why are you here? I love that. I love that. Do you still have moments speaking of being on stage at Wembley in front of 80,000 fans where you say, it wasn't that long ago, actually, I was busking on the streets of London and now I'm selling out stadiums around the world?

Do you still pinch yourself from time to time? Is it weird if I say no? No? No. Because I did so many of those small gigs and then so many of the medium gigs and then have done so many of these. Like, I, like, I mean, obviously,

Obviously there's moments where I go, oh, I'm really happy that I'm here, but I can track my whole timeline. I didn't just turn up here. I can track the whole timeline. And this, the first part, sucked. And I'm really glad I did it because it sucks, because it's made me appreciate all of this. But I can see how it got here, because it's just built and built and built and built. And there's kind of been no shortcuts. I've not really, like, everything that has come has.

has come because of something else that's come before it, there's been like a knock-on effect from everything. It's not just suddenly being a jump and you're here. That's the thing about overnight success. It's always overnight to the people who see it from the outside, but that's the person who lived it, right? Well, but I actually think with my career, there was so much made about the prior stuff

that actually I think people did sort of see it. Because, you know, you get someone like Jamie Fox talking about having me play the foxhole in 2010, and then you have someone else talk about. about this story of seeing me here and here, and all of that sort of adds up. And I don't think, there,

I think, I think when you can track someone's overnight success because of the internet now, you see all these things. You know, I saw a video of Kid LaRoy playing a high school yesterday online and you can be like, oh my God,

so then he was doing that and you, you track it and you can see someone's success. There's footage of Bruno Mars when he's like four, or there's one of Hunter Hayes at a, like a country fair when he's like four. When you can track it like, that and you can see the people have been working for that long. I think it's different. Last question before I let you go. So you've had this five-album plan. We're four albums in.

Is it too obvious for me to expect that the fifth album will be subtract or minus? Do we know what that'll be yet? So that will be, yeah, I don't know if there's another record before that. I think that will be part. So in the five-album plan, that is certainly going to be the fifth one. Right. But I'm, I've been making a head. of a lot of music recently like a hell of a lot of stuff and it just finishes in I think nowadays the norm is not to wait three years between releases which is what I've just done and the thing is I've probably made three albums in those three years that I could have put out every year so I think I'm going to be releasing more frequently now I think I think that's the new

norm and you look at someone like Elton John he was releasing three albums a year in the 70s the Beatles did all their albums in seven years so I think the way that Drake is doing it now and Taylor's doing it now, Ariana's doing it now, and Bieber's doing it now. That's the new norm of just constant, constant music. And you're doing that right now. I mean, you're collaborating with some pretty exciting people. Yeah, I was in with Jay Balvin today.

Actually, like, I... So all collaborations that I've been doing recently have just happened very naturally. Literally, I was in a gym in New York, and it was me and him in there, and I heard this Colombian Spanish accent on the phone. I was like, that sounds like Jay Balvin. What would he be doing in this gym?

And we ended up meeting there talking for about two hours in the gym, then going for lunch, and then we've just been in touch ever since. He's a really, really sweet guy, and yeah, we made a bunch of songs. I've got him singing in English. He's got me singing in Spanish. And you're singing in Spanish. How's that going for you?

Yeah, it's cool. I learned Italian, so it's actually very, very close in terms of pronunciation and even words. Some of the words are just a tiny bit different. it's not as different. You mentioned Elton John. Merry Christmas.

You guys did a Christmas song. Just hit number one in England. You guys are buddies. That must have been so much fun. Yeah. I think with Elton, like he asked me to do it last Christmas, and I, it wasn't like an instant yes. I know you'd think it probably would be because I love Elton John and his music and him as a person. But it wasn't actually until Michael passed away that it turned into an absolute definite yes,

because it just, that hit home that tomorrow isn't promised. And I was like, why would I, because I said to Elton, let's do it in 2023. And I was like, why an earth would I wait to do a song with Elton? Like, he's also a close friend of mine. I get to dress up and silly outfits with him and promote this song for a month now. Like, I'm going back and we're doing all this TV promo. I just spent time at his house doing his podcast and we filmed a music video together. And like, I'm so glad I did that now.

Because if anything happened to me tomorrow or to him, like, we've had this time together. and it's amazing and there's no regrets there. Stick around for more of my conversation with Ed Shearin right after a break. Welcome back. Now, the rest of my conversation with Ed Shearin. You've won Grammys before. Yeah. You're nominated again.

You still get that feeling, that incitement of being nominated? Yeah, I think every artist would be lying if they didn't. I have like an odd thing with the Grammys because my biggest year, which was shape of view and divide, it was sort of shut out of the main categories and I sort of felt like oh is that, am I now shut out? Like is this the thing? And I haven't had a song of the year nomination

since thinking out, no, Love Yourself actually was nominated. So it kind of felt as if you were sort of let back into the club. So yeah, it was a nice feeling. It was a nice feeling. I don't know it there. It's such a, I hate putting so much importance on it

because I've been so heartbroken by it. I've had 13 nominations before I won one and every time I would turn up and every time I would lose and it's better to put your happiness on the songs that you like and you go, okay, I like the song and I put it out and whatever happens happens.

What I said before, like if a song wasn't successful, I could still stand by it. Like, I can stay, if Bad Habits didn't get nominated, I could still stand by it and be like, but I like that song. So it's nice to have the recognition, but at the same time, like, I don't live and die by it anymore. And that goes for like every award show.

Like even like the Brit Awards in England used to be all that my year would gear up to. It'd be like, release an album, do a single, then we go to the Brit Awards and let's see if we can win, whereas now it's kind of like, again, Shape of You was the biggest selling song in England that year and it didn't get it.

And I'm like, if you can do that much and still, so I'm very much of the frame of mind I'm just going to keep creating music that I like. And every now and then when stuff happens like that, it's super nice and I'm super happy about it, but if I lose, I'm cool.

I'm cool. I'm just happy that someone's gone, hey, yeah, yeah, we liked it. You put value in other achievements and milestones. But there's still value in it. I'm still like super grateful and happy for it. And if I win, then that's like obviously wonderful. But what I'm saying is if I lost, it wouldn't break. I wouldn't sit there and be like, oh my God, I made a rubbish song. Right.

Yeah. It would be different. It's interesting to hear you say you felt like you were locked out of the Grammys because I was reading where you said in some ways you feel like an outsider in pop music, which I was surprised to read because. to me you are the successful personification of what pop music is and can be. Do you still feel that way? Yeah, I don't really know because, yeah, I, like, people like my stuff.

So, like, obviously, like, I'm in the pop sphere. I just, I don't know, divide felt like quite a weird time, because I feel like it took a lot of people by surprise, and therefore they didn't, there wasn't like a, oh, yeah, that makes sense. It was like a, oh, what is this happening sort of thing. I don't know, man. I'm happy with the records I'm putting out, and my fan base are the best and wonderful. The tours sold next year, so I'm going to go on and do that, and I've found my little niche. I found a niche. I found a niche. And by the way, I wasn't completely shut out of the grammars.

I did get a pop vocal album and pop vocal performance on TV. But I'm saying main categories, I haven't had a song of the year since Love Yourself. it was a very pleasant surprise. And a song that you took a chance on with bad habits. Nice to see you acknowledge that way. And, Amanda, you know what? The competition is, like, I looked at that and I was like, I'm not winning that. That's like, you know, you've got driver's license, Montero, peaches. It's tough.

Like, yeah, it's like, and those songs are like massive. So I'm just, like, I'm happy to be involved in the category, hopefully going to perform. And that's going to be quite fun. And, yeah. But they're saying the same thing about you. Oh, I can't win. Bad Habits is in there. No, no.

I bet you, I bet you everyone. saying everyone's looking at driver's license and being like, that one. Driver's license will win. Well, good luck to you, man. It's always a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you. My big thanks again to Ed for a great conversation. You can catch him on his mathematics world tour right now. And my thanks to all of you for listening again this week.

If you want to hear more of our conversations with my guests every week, be sure to click follow so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune in to Sunday today every weekend on NBC. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast.