Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - EMMY NOMINEE: Lorne Michaels

Episode Date: September 13, 2024

A new era of American comedy began in 1975 with the premiere of Saturday Night Live and a young producer named Lorne Michaels calling the shots. Willie Geist gets together with the SNL creator and executive producer in famed Studio 8H to talk about the show’s legacy, and how they put on a live production in the middle of both a pandemic and a presidential election. (Original broadcast date October 18, 2020) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks, as always, for clicking and listening along. Got a great one for you, and I'm excited because it's the first in-person interview we've done since March. My guest this week is SNL, creator, an executive producer, Lorne Michaels, the mastermind behind Saturday Night Live, who created this show that launched 45 years ago this month. The first show was October 11th, 1975, hosted by George. Carlin. The last in-person interview we've done for the Sunday Sit Down podcast and for Sunday today on NBC was with Octavia Spencer on March the 12th. You remember what was going on on March the 12th? It was sort of the day before the world kind of shut down. So we were happy to get in-person

doing an in-person interview these days does not come without layers of precautions, especially when you go up to SNL. So I work just to give you some perspective. We do the Morning Joe program on MSNBC that I host on the third floor. My office is on the second floor at 30 Rock. They shoot SNL in Studio 8H on the 8th floor. So Lauren and I got together and we sat up in the bleachers, overlooking that famous stage, overlooking all those sets.

It was on a Thursday night of a show week. Bill Burr was the host. They had just, you'll remember, canceled the musical guest, Morgan Wallen because he was seen on TikTok, partying after a football game without a mask, breaking protocol so he couldn't come on the show. they put together, Jack White came on the show as a quick replacement. So that was all happening as Lauren and I were sitting down.

Lauren literally was on the phone booking Jack White. So you'll hear me and him announce that news to me in this interview. Obviously, by now that's a week and a half or so old. But that's what that moment was. And we're up in these famous yellow seats in this famous studio where they've done this famous show for 45 years. We talk about the legacy of the show. We talk about how much longer. Warren Michaels might want to do the show. He's been there for 45 years. He's 75 years old now. And he has

created an American icon. Think of all the cast members who became huge stars. Think of all those sketches you'll never forget. Think about all those moments during political campaigns and debates that were made even more famous by SNL. And we talk about that. We talk about covering the Trump White House. We talk about doing the show during this high stakes campaign. We talk about about bringing Jim Carrey in to play Joe Biden. And we talk about the role of the show right now in a time of national mourning, really, in a time of national tragedy, where people are losing loved ones, they're losing jobs. What is the role of the show? How does he look at SNL in these times and what should it do? And how hard, frankly, was it to bring the show back safely into

Studio 8-8? So you hear about all that. Remember, they finished the last season, 45, remotely with all the sketches being done basically over Zoom. Well, they're back in the studio now, as normal as they can be. Smaller audience, but at least there's some audience, he said, they need some response, they need some laughter to make it all work. So I think you'll enjoy this conversation, particularly if you're a fan of SNL, to hear about the legacy of it, how it began, how he views it now, and how difficult it is to put on the show under these modern circumstances.

So please enjoy right now my conversation with, SNL creator, Lauren Michaels on the Sunday Sitdown podcast. Lauren, thanks for having us. Happy to be. Great to see you. Good to see you, too. So let's talk about what it's been like just to be back. I mean, in March, you guys left.

You weren't sure how long that was going to last and ended up finishing out the season. What are the challenges of coming back into this space under these circumstances? Well, I think first and foremost is just the protocols, the safety protocols. before I came here for this, I was tested again, as is everybody every day. You wear your mask all the time. The cast wear them up until the red light goes on and take them off. The audience is in masks. There's fewer audience.

There's now what would normally be 100. There's now 100. What would normally be 400 is now 100. and there are 18 people on the floor, and we've given those tickets to first responders and who are an enthusiastic audience. But I think to get used to the sound of a much smaller audience,

it sounds about the same at home because of Mike. It does, yeah. But for us, it's just like, oh, it's just a little less energy and a little less confidence when you walk out. That said, the cast have adapted to it, and obviously Chris Rock did great last week, but I think we're finding our way with it

and what we can do, what we can't do. It's a weird thing in our culture, so much of it is, so much every week is based on accident, running into people, things, just ideas that start one way and then somebody else gets into it and it changes. And so the idea that you can't, can't have that. And so just the flow of ideas. We're finding other ways for that to happen,

but it is, and texting, I must say, helps that. But it's a single people in a room. My room, my office upstairs, which would normally on a Monday have 40 to 50 people in it for the big meeting with the host is now five. that's the maximum. Office here is three. So you just are in that people are coming in in waves, and so you have to

remember to say everything again. That's all. Right. I mean, last week I think you said, I'm not sure if we're going to be able to pull this off with this show, and you did. Yeah, we did. Right? Yeah, we did. It feel good? Not, not my, you know,

my curse is that I mostly see the mistakes. So I focus on that and then six or seven hours after the show goes off i start to realize yeah it wasn't bad uh but that's uh you just always have an idea of what it could be if if everything worked and that hasn't happened yeah 46 years so what are you going to learn you think from week one to week two what will you do differently i think how much the machine can handle how much it changes when we have to have things in, which it's always been a writer's show and the writers and performers working closely together.

So the production part of it has tended to sometimes have to wait on the writing because we've just last week, we had that debate, you know, on Tuesday and then on Thursday, night, Friday, when the president protested positive, it all changed. So you had to have, now we had to put it back as perspective on it. And it was being rewritten. I don't think the final version of it got to dress rehearsal. There was a certain part of which we just had to go with dress rehearsal, but the script changes had gotten into the control room, not to the cards.

So I think people, fortunately, Jim is great at what he does and Alec. and Maya and back. And so they just sort of rolled with it. And then the changes did get in for error. But it's not quite, you haven't done it once. So you come in, you're just off on the wrong foot a little bit. But everybody did remarkably well. And I don't think most of it was noticed at home.

No. No, for the most part, it looked like it always does. I was going to ask you about those changes, because it's someone who hosts a morning show covering this presidency. We should go in at 6 a.m. with a story that's our lead. And by 8 a.m., the show is completely different.

No, and never has, you know, because he tweets, he can change the dialogue, and he knows that, obviously. So it's a very effective weapon. Now it's beginning to bite a little bit because it seems more impulsive. And so it's harder to make sense. When they come too fast and furious, it just is harder to get the,

the point across. But it's a very effective thing. I imagine your writers after four years of this have a little bit gotten used to it knowing that what you go in at the table read at Wednesday is probably going to change. And most often we don't even attempt it until Friday. We've been doing the debates or anything political Friday night because it's and so Alec Baldwin wouldn't normally be called in before Friday night. So it's it's Fortunately, the cast are good at it and can adapt. You mentioned Jim Carrey. Yes.

A lot of people were thrilled by that choice. How did that come together? He, I can't remember whether Lindsay told me or somebody told me that he'd expressed interest in it. And then I spoke with his agent called. And as soon as I heard it, we could have gone in a bunch of different ways. And this was before we went off in March. Oh. And I thought, no, no, that's the right balance to what we have as playing the president.

So, but no one knew until he got, he was in Hawaii for eight months. And then he arrived here like two days or three days before we started. So we hadn't really seen it, but I would never doubt that he has it. So, particularly on an impression. There was two long sessions on the makeup and the look over a two-day period. And I thought they did brilliantly with that and got that right. And it's a hard thing to do because the impression has to fit the look that that's the accurate look.

And he's used to using his face, he used to say. So I think, but it all seemed to work. And when he came out with the two pistols and all that and the shades, it just looked, it looked right and original. He's such an original and distinctive performer. So when a star that big comes in, is he open to notes from your writers and your guys of, maybe you should play it this way or does he have an idea and let's do it? I think he's open to notes and has a lot of notes.

So it's, and I think we found out last week that not everybody could have a boy. until the end. So at some point we have to lock it and I think we'll be better prepared this week. Was there ever any chance, Lauren, that you wouldn't start this season back in this studio? Was there a discussion of, well, maybe we'll have to be remote? I think it was all I talked about all summer and leading up to it was I need an audience. It's one thing for Jimmy or Seth, you know, it's they've adjusted to it and they don't live on the audience. because we're taking big swings and they're hard jokes, when you don't hear any sound, it throws the timing off.

And the thing that the audience does is it's the connection that, you know, it's the plug that makes the circuit work. And the performers need it, the audience needs it. And whatever we felt about any show before we did it, it all changes once, you know, it hits the atmosphere, once the audience, we hear that audience sound. So the piece that you were absolutely convinced was brilliant on Wednesday. That a dress rehearsal, it just withers and everyone's looking at each other. Not trying to assign blame, but more with a sense of wonder, like, why isn't that working?

Sometimes we can figure out why it wasn't working, but very often it was just, no, they're not, we trust them. And in a way, because there are 400 people we've never met before and who've never met each other, it leads, you trust it, as opposed to the person who wrote it may have a, you know, be very committed to the length and everything else about it. But the performers intuitively know when something's going too long or whatever. So you need to really see it up on its feet with cameras, with effects, with all those things. And that's why dress rehearsal is so important.

That's what you've always said, right? The audience gets the final vote. It doesn't matter if they don't laugh. No matter what you love it, it's gone. Exactly. I mean, we'll sometimes open. I will because I'm stubborn and put pieces on that I won't open with them, but they will go on because they're worth it or because they're important to us or because I think, I'd rather go on record with that than not.

You're talking about the protocols, and I can say just being here how seriously you guys are taking this. And everyone in this building is, I told you I'm here alone in the mornings. It's a different universe for sure. Has that been hard for cast? You said they're taking their mask off

right before the red light. We did, I think maybe you saw pictures of it, but we did read through, which we normally do around a big table with a lot of, you know, with coffee, with food to eat. with water and the read-through we're doing now starts there and goes all the way to there with everybody at a table six feet apart and microphones so it's not intimate right but we can hear

it and then you can get a sense of whether and our our cast and our writers have always it's always been an honest room. People laugh at what they think is funny. And it's not, nobody feels they're being unfair or unkind by not laughing. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. We need it to be honest.

And we don't have a lot of industry there or a lot of people who are involved in the production. So it's, as I said, it's an honest room. It's now just a much bigger honest room. Michael and Colin were on with Jimmy the other night, maybe last night, and Michael described the read-through as like just listening to a podcast. You're just sitting here and voices are coming in from a microphone. Different experience. Yeah. Your musical guest this week had to be canceled because of these protocols. What happened there? What happened was there was a, you know, TikTok video of him over the

weekend. And it sort of went viral. And there was just a, you know, TikTok video of him over the weekend. And it sort of went viral. And there was just a lot of concern because in bringing somebody to New York State from out of state, there's protocols for that and then there's protocols. So we went with testing. He was tested, he was never tested positive at any point, but they were just, he didn't test positive and we were testing every day, but we were running out of days. And the amount of days that he would have had to test it negative was one day past what the show would have been and i you know let's to say at any other point of my life i just would have said we're doing it and uh and if i had to do it i would pre-tape it friday night and if he tested negative tested positive

on saturday then i would have gone uh i would have gone live but uh it just wasn't possible and i talked to him and I said, we can't do it now, but we will do it soon. And whenever you're ready, you call and you'll be on that week. So I think we had a good talk. What was his reaction on the other end of the line? I think he was grateful for the fact. I think he's got some work to do. And I think he was honorable and, and,

honest and kind of charming. And so I think when he comes back, it'll be great to have him. And I always feel badly when, because you're always trying to mix the host and the music and the other things that are happening so that it feels like that show was that set of ideas. And I think he would have been perfect with Bill.

He was very gracious. He'd been an Instagram post that I screwed up, you know, and he'll be back. He probably isn't the first country, or the first person from rock and roll who partied after a big game, in that case, a football game or a concert. But we're just living in a different time and everything is scrutinized in a microscopic way. So now another curveball comes to you. You're great at this. Have you booked another musical guest?

Yeah. We're still in the middle of it. I know Jack White is coming in. and there could be some other stuff that's still in discussion, which will probably be any time soon in the next hour or two. Imagine when you call a musician says, where do you want me? When should I be there?

Not, I mean, it depends on whether their band is together or where, you know, I mean, calling somebody on a Thursday to be here for Friday and say, you know, is complicated. Yeah. It has to be people who. are ready to go. Great. Jack White. That's not a bad replacement. And he's always good on the show. Just always good. Yeah. So Lauren, I'm interested in asking you about sort of S&L at these times of tragedy. You know, 9-11, who could forget the show where you stood there with Rudy Giuliani, can we be funny?

And he said, why start now? Yeah. How do you view the role of S&L in these moments where people are grieving and people are in pain? I think whether it's a show or a newspaper, if you have an audience, you build up and earn trust. They know you're going to deliver and that you're going to try and be honest about what you do. So I think the fact that we've always shown up, even those at-home shows, which were technically impossible. And it was the weirdest thing because I was talking to everybody, but I had no idea where they were. you know what I mean this person could be in Ohio and that person's up in Rhode Island you know and and yet everyone pulled it together and everybody showed up and and the shows were they were different than our normal show but they in their own way I thought they were brilliant so it's just there's a connection and we've and because we're live I think they know we can change things up to the end and that it will seem dishonest if we're still stuck on something from Wednesday and everything's changed in the meantime. So the nimbleness of that is part of the appeal.

And it's probably, it's one of the few broadcast shows other than sports or news where you really should see it live because it's of the moment, you know. Not to say you shouldn't watch it on social media, but you know what I mean. It just, it has a really impact when it's working. I know you're not terribly haughty about your show, but do you think it's important for SNL

to be here for people in these times when they're not feeling great? I do. And not at any grand way. I just think it's our job and that's what we do. You do it well. Oh, thanks. Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Stick around to hear more from Lorne Michaels right after the break. Welcome back to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Now more of my conversation with Lorne Michaels.

So I believe, yeah, we, yeah, this Sunday. Yes. will be the 45th anniversary of the first show, October 11th, 1975. Yeah. When I say that to you, sitting here still 45 years later, what do you think? Well, I didn't sign up for this. They just worked out that way. And I think it's, it's, I think when you're, I was 30 when it started and I'm not interested

in doing the math, but I think that when you, whatever you set out to do in life, particularly in the arts. There's what you set out to do and then what you're good at. And this, for me, took sort of all my talent. And sometimes it's consuming. But at the same time, the schedule is designed so that creative people need downtime. And it's intense. And this is the first time we've ever done five shows in a row.

Four generally is not turned out. But there's no choice here because there's not a week that there's not a debate or there's not a week that you can. And the whole country is paying attention to this election. And the part that's not so much fun is it's five shows in a row and everybody understands what that is. And then, well, what if it gets held over? What if it goes to the courts? Sort of have to show up for a six show. And I don't think long.

I honestly believe that the level of fatigue will be too much. Yes. We won't be gone for long if we disappear. So 45 years. So if you think about 1975, you're coming out of Nixon resigning. Yeah. The last helicopter leaves the embassy in Saigon. It's a time of, it's a tumultuous time in the country, obviously.

So what was sort of the ethos of the show when you started it? And do you still see it out on these stages today? Yeah. And I think that weirdly, although it's not fun to talk about, New York City was not in great shape in 1975 when we got here. And it seems a lot of that is resonating today and in the months and possibly a year to come. But I think that what had happened then was most of the established institutions had been discredited. The president was to be impeached and resigned. The military was discovered to be not credible in terms of what they've been telling us about Vietnam.

And most of the things that people normally trust to set the course were in flux. And that change led to people, it led to a lot of conspiracy theories, but also led to people not knowing where or how to trust. So it was more important to try and be an honest voice then. And I think it's still, I mean, it's an honest voice, but we are in professional show business. So there's that mixed in with it, too. So our first, you know, our job is mostly to entertain and but to do it with the level of intelligence and, but still has to make you laugh. I like reading you say you sort of roll your eyes at the idea of speaking truth to power because the power doesn't change, right? No. I think if you start to think that you're doing important work, not a good sign.

It's an early warning that you're about to be accepting a lot of degrees and lecturing people. The end is nine. Yes, exactly. And how do you explain the longevity of the show? why is my 11-year-old son waking up every Sunday morning and rushing to the DVR to YouTube to watch every sketch? I think that the weird part about it is that the form that the show took, which was the format I was given, which was the old Tonight Show format, which was sort of nine acts of six to eight minutes, sometimes we went longer or shorter, but it is perfect for social media.

It was a happy accident that that worked out. I mean, it wasn't part of the original design. But short sketches, commercial parodies, musical acts that are three, four minutes, they translate perfectly into the new media, whereas the hour drama, less so. I mean, the hour drama that was broken up with commercials. So that had to be refigured out. It's sort of been refigured out on Netflix and on streaming services. One thing that doesn't seem to change for 45 years is everyone has an opinion about SNL.

Yes. Right now and now there's so many forums for that. Oh, the show's lost at the sketch, but they're not doing this right. Do you hear any of that? Do you listen to any of that? It sort of washes over me because, you know, there was a period when there were three or four reviewers that actually mattered. And people took it all very seriously. I think it's everything now is aggregated.

So you hear that the majority of people feel this or the majority of people feel that. And we're always surprised. Do you see a day, Lauren, anywhere on the... horizon where you're not sitting on that office anymore um well i'd like to my plan i'm not sure that i'll see it through but my plan is to be here for the 50th uh the 40th was great uh i don't like them i like them 10 years apart i think it's uh and we really did the 25th and waited 15 years for that one but i don't have those 15 years so i think it'll be the 50th the 50th and by that point I think I really deserve to wander off.

No question about it. Yeah. When you look out into movies and television and you see all the faces, all the people whose careers you've launched from the studio. Yes. How does that make you feel to look at sort of the Lorne Diaspora? I don't think of it that way, but I think the tremendous benefit of that is that that you can bring, you know, people back who you know are perfect to that.

And they almost always answer the bell. So it's a, I won't get into names, but it's sort of helped keep the show alive for all the generations because you can have people who are part of the cast. You can have people who host it a lot. You can have people who are right and who are great at it. Because it's a certain set of skills, and it's a scary one because you really need to be in good shape to do it and on your game. So the fact that they still want to or that they speak the same language or the way we'd said, the fact that they get it, there's just not a lot of talking. They just go, yeah.

It's a muscle they have and they go. Exactly. It's great. I'll get into makeup. Thank you, Lauren. My big thanks again to Lorne for a great conversation and for welcoming us safely into Studio 8H. You, of course, can catch new episodes of Saturday Night Live every weekend through October 31st, a long run of new shows.

And my thanks, as always, to all of you for tuning in. If you want to hear more of the full-length conversations with my guests every week, be sure to click subscribe so you never miss an episode. And, of course, don't forget to tune into Sunday today every weekend. on NBC. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast.