Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - GRAMMY NOMINEE: Jack Antonoff (October 2023)

Episode Date: February 3, 2024

2024 Grammy nominee Jack Antonoff sat down with Willie Geist to discuss the new album from his band, "Bleachers." The hit music producer also discussed his long-standing collaboration with Taylor Swift. (Original broadcast date October 15, 2023.) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks as always for clicking and listening along. Got a great one for you this week, especially if you love music with one of the most influential artists in the business. He is Jack Antonoff. He's, of course, the front man of his band Bleachers, but also so much more producer of artists like Taylor Swift. They are longtime collaborators, including on all her recent stuff, including on her re-recording all of her old stuff. Lord Lana Del Rey, the 1975, and he does a lot of his work out of a studio called Electric Lady Studios in New York City built by Jimmy Hendricks back in the 1960s. It is an incredible space.

It's where we got together to do the interview. He just that morning, as you will hear, had put the final touches on the new album for his band, Bleachers, and did it right where we were sitting. Really cool to just sit with a guy that smart who can get, in a room with Taylor Swift with a blank page, kind of tinker on some instruments, start writing things, notes into their phones, talking back and forth, and just come up with the albums and the work he does. How does it work? How do you make a song? You're going to get some insight into that here. Jack is a guy who grew up just across the river from New York City in New Jersey, kind of looking against the window. I can relate. I grew up there too, wondering, how am I going to get into New York

someday? And boy, has he done it? He started playing in bands when he was in high school. He ultimately joined the band Fun in 2008. They had a couple of major hits, won two Grammys, triple platinum album, became internationally famous. Then he moved on to his band Bleachers. And frankly, as well known for his music as he is for his producing. He is a fascinating guy to sit and spend some time with, especially where we did it at Electric Lady, this legendary, legendary place. So sit back, relax, enjoy a conversation about music right now with Jack Antonoff on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Thanks for doing this, man. It's good to meet you. Nice to meet you. We have so much to talk about. New music. New Jersey. New Jersey. We've talked about a lot of

New Jersey. New... Album. New marriage. New marriage. New. How deep can we go on this game? I don't know. I'll just stop talking if it gets too deep. New York. New York. So let's bring it back to New York. Here we are. First of all, for people who are not familiar with Electric Lady. What is the significance of this place, Hendricks and the Stones and Stevie Wonder and all the people who've recorded in here? Why is this such a special place? I think it's such a special place because it's,

well, there's all the obvious reasons. Hendricks built it and the angel made voodoo right there. But there's just something about it. Like a weird thing that's happened to studio cultures a lot of times now. I guess it's a bit of a racket, but there'll be no gear in the studio. There'll just be kind of the outboard gear.

And then you have to rent all the gear. And you're like, oh, now it's just a treated room. This place says it's the best and coolest year. I mean, so it becomes characters. You know, we'll often say to ourselves, like, oh, I was just with someone that's like, oh, we should record this drum thing, but let's wait until we're an electric lady, because the way that drum sound is kind of bouncing off the windows in D. Or the way the drum sound is in B with the sort of drop ceiling thing.

this kit, this base, there's a Coronado base that is like, oh, I need that base through, you know, this chain at Electric Lady. So there's just stuff that just lives here that is so specific. And it's also a funny place. Like it's kind of built funny and,

yeah, but I've been kind of living up here on the top floor. There's a few little rooms and there's a deck and, you know, my own version of my own little scene going on. And it's not, I mean, people should know it's not like a big sprawling studio. Like they might be imagining, this is a good, tight New York City space. Downstairs is a little bigger. Yeah.

But I don't love big studios because I find that, I think this is true for a lot of people who grew up doing their work at home. I like being in spaces that enable you to maybe like dream of a bigger space. You know, like I've never wanted to do. the whole like take my record into an arena and play and see how it sounds the arena it's like that's a different expression i like the albums being like sounding like people in a room dreaming of something bigger and then when they get there cool you you adjust it and so this is kind of the best of both worlds because the the equipment is beautiful but it is small and it's and it's a little funny and you can do funny things do you feel the history when you sit in here and make music

do you feel oh hendricks was in this room um i feel yeah but it's a lot of like some of the less celebrated ones like there's some like Steely Dan and clash stuff like I feel like obviously electric lady is just like Hendricks Hendrix Hendrix but he actually didn't do as much work here as you'd think because I think the story I heard is that he was building it

and would have to like go on tour to keep paying to build it and then died before he really did a ton of work and the real story of this place currently is it's gone through so many different changes through the years and and there's a man named Lee who it's his studio now and he I believe started as an intern and the place was like kind of falling apart and then figured out a way to get an investor and and buy the place and he's really turned it into what it is but all gear

all you know mythology and folklore aside it's really the experiences you have cabin studios. And for me, it's just become a place where me and my people kind of meet up, whether we're making records or, you know, actually, you know what? I think it's like, I've been so on this tip of like all scenes are dead. And then I realized through kind of the past couple years here, it's like, no, it's not true. We just turn our phones off. So it doesn't, you know, and I kind of, you know, you have to remind yourself that sometimes things, things happen even if they're not documented. Right.

I was sitting with someone recently and I was like, man, like we're having some really special times there. Because, you know, we're all making records at different times and everyone's kind of passing through and listening to each other's records and spending time together and working on them or just hanging out. So, yeah, it was kind of like maybe the new future, or new future, stupid thing to say, maybe the future. Maybe the future of scenes or like kinetic lightning.

moments are just that you don't kind of know until you hear the records. There's no real-time action. Right, because I imagine nowadays you're just immediately getting it back and messing with it. Yeah, and also I just feel like there's been a new thing.

I feel like a lot of people I know are putting their phone down. I'm feeling a little bit more like I've got to come here and and it's sort of like, ah, nothing f*** matters. Can I curse on this program? Oh yeah. Really? Oh, yeah. Got it. Well, that's a firm cut.

So, yeah, so I just mean, like, this place inspires me to come and shout out the rest of the world while still being a part of it. Yeah. Because I like the separate news kind of up here, but I also like seeing, like, I'm not big, during the pandemic, I did a lot of the sort of go to a mountain and record. And it's not as much for me as this type of thing. So you're putting the finishing touches, I think, or maybe you've finished it on the new bleachers out? Are we, I literally, like, gave the thumbs up to the, to the master. The last master I heard, we had a couple tweaks, and this morning we got a new master, and it's perfect.

Today. Yeah, this morning. Which is really funny, because it's that last 5% that's kind of everything. You make the biggest decisions. And I like to be really awake and alert, which is why I like to finish albums, and then stop, and then finish the album. So I like to finish the recording in the mixing and even get the master. And then whether it's a week, two, or even three weeks go by, and then we say, okay, now we have to deliver it, which to cut vinyl is like a whole process.

So, like, you really have to deliver it if you're going to make your date. So now we have to deliver it. And I also like our hands being on it as close to it coming out as possible. But that's when you say, okay, you know what? It doesn't matter that we spent four months recording this song and did all these different versions of it. It just doesn't work. Like, I took one song and I just, I cut off an entire part of it because in the sequence, and those huge, big brush decisions are so important.

And I think it's a mistake to not let yourself feel rested and awake to make those decisions. Like, I don't believe in, like, work, work, work, or work, deliver. Like, there has to be a stopping point where you pull back. Completely disregard the process. Because I think it's dangerous to care how something was made. you experience us, I'm sure, like you could research something forever and just doesn't work. Yeah. And then you could like,

I don't know, just some random-ass field interview and it's like more transcendent. Right. So all the matter is is how it affects people and you and touches you or doesn't. So that was the thing I did the last week. I wasn't even in the studio and I was just

listening and only hearing what I was hearing and not dragging the heavy baggage of what we went through and make this song or what I went through for that vocal take, because it doesn't matter. You can't fall in love with those bits of you have to be able to let them go. Can't fall in love with the process.

Right. Because all that matters is what it sounds like. And it took me many years to understand that because I used to wear, like, armor, like, do you know where this was recorded and how it was recorded? And this was bounced to tape and then bounced back here and we did this, and so-and-so played drums on it. And it just doesn't matter. Like, you just learn the lesson over and over,

and then you choose to accept it. or not, which is, it's frustrating if you let it frustrate you, and it's glorious if you let it happen to you. And that's how I see making records is like, I've always said it, but pretty powerless. And if you think that you can control it, then maybe you turn into one of those sort of Wonka Mode guys with the little top hat and the tails who is like a rocker guy who knows everything. That's all the answers. I imagine it's got to be hard, though, to say, that's it. That's the record that's going to live forever. You know somebody's going to be listening to this 50 years from now. It's never going to be perfect maybe. But at some point you have to just let it go and say, we're there as close as we can be. I find it kind of easy only because I believe that there's no separation of what's for me and what's for everyone else. I think they're kind of the same thing. Like if I can, I think if I can feel something that makes me feel, you know, gut feeling, about, but that thing, impossible to put words to, then it's done. And then I think there's two

stages to my process, which is making something and then protecting something. And they're equally as important. You make something, and it's your job to make it. And it's your job to follow it or cut it off or whatever it is. And then once you hear and feel something, then it becomes your job to protect it. And not just piece by piece, turn it. into something it's not. And sometimes I mean that literally protected from people. If you believe something, you shouldn't, this is me talking to myself, not anyone else, go answer shopping to confirm that belief because you won't get it. You just

kind of have to believe it. And I think a lot of, that's why I keep my process of small. All the records are made as tiny, tiny team because it's so fragile. And if one person's like, you can really just dismantle the whole thing, it's a lot like, imagine, like, sometimes I imagine playing what's the surgery game from like the 60s operation, where it's like, it's not like, you can't like delicately hit the side, like you, you, you mess it up or you don't. And so it's really important to not have people chiming in on things when you're just like

on a path because they could just blow up the whole fantasy. So this is your fourth album for Bleachers, right? Yeah. And it's a sound your fans love. It speaks to sort of like suburban youth in New Jersey that we were talking about it a minute ago. Yes. Not just New Jersey, of course, but your experience in the suburbs looking from New Jersey into the city. What's the sound on this new album, if different at all from the previous three?

It's super different. It's something that happens, which I didn't know. expect at this point in the band. I've never been in a band for this many albums. They always sort of blow up. Bands are up. It happens. Always. They're insane. I mean, imagine being married to more than one person and there's no physical relationship half the time, which is an important part to sort of calm everyone down sometimes in a relationship. So it's like three, four, five-way marriage, no one's having sex. Like,

Jesus, imagine. And you never want to, I never want it to become any sort of caricature, so I've always sort of blown up bands before. There was even an opportunity for us to like is like, leave it, leave it. Don't be cliche. It means too much to people. Like, I hate it when

people ruin things for. People like make things when you're super inspired and you love making it. Not for any other reason. Otherwise, don't take up the space. So, Bleacher's, however, has just been this thing that's growing and growing. And something happened around the last album, the amount of work that we had out, the way the fan base was growing, like, there's something about the bands were, like,

quietly getting pretty big, like playing venues like Red Rocks and Radio City, where I could have like inside jokes with that many people, where it almost felt like the rest of the world drifted away, and it was the first album I made where the band in the audience is the reference. And that was really powerful. It totally changed the sound of it, totally changed the way you played, the way I wrote. Yeah. But this album has a little bit of a different feel to it. What was the place you were coming from on this one?

What did you want to say? Well, the main, there's always like, you always are like, you have to be compelled to write. And if you're not, then you shouldn't write. And so you're always waiting. You always, like, you mess around and get melodies, little ideas. I might get like a nice lyric, but you know, you have to, I have to feel something to write a whole body of work, which is why they take me a long time. And my whole life I had written about, my sister died when I was 18, and I kind of wrote pretty much about that loss through the lens of different ages, which is a really powerful place to write from. I'm in no way saying that I don't like that or regret that. I love that and still do it.

Before that, I wrote a little bit more free-flowing, and then when we lost her, I went through a period where I kind of couldn't write. And then when I kind of woke back up in my early 20s, I started writing a lot. And it was all about that. And then it was all about that in my mid-20s. And I just felt like there were all these experiences that I was supposed to be having as a person that I could only get so far. I imagine like a rubber band, because I was like rubber banded to that past. and I loved that ability so if I was in a new relationship

I would write about it through that lens through that lens and then there was something about the band growing to where it was being with my partner getting married they all felt very like real armor

towards the future where I felt like I could for the first time write a little bit outside that lens it was very emotional because when I started this record I had this idea that it would be called tribute living

because I was obsessed with this idea writing or living for someone who can't be here and then something just shifted and there's still a lot of that on the album but it's just way more present than I've ever been it's way more conversational what it's like to just be in a room with me

and then the ironic thing is that that actually made it all heavier because then I just sort of conversationally begin to talk about that loss in a much more now way, not in a reflective way. And that's been 20 years since your sister Sarah died, so you've been going through that. It's just crazy.

People don't tell you about losses. It doesn't get better. It just gets manageable. If anything, you miss someone more. You know, if someone you loved went away for a weekend, you'd miss them more if they went away for 10 days. You'd probably miss someone away for 20 days, and then you just elongate that.

And what you do is, what's interesting about loss is you develop these mechanisms to just sort of like, I almost see it as like a crazy machine where it's like, oh, you just put it out of fire, whether it's like panic or there's, yeah, I know that feeling, I know that feeling, I know that feeling, utter disassociated, and I know that feeling, another feeling, blah. And so you get so much into like the managing of it that sometimes you just never take a second to be like, oh, like, it just gets worse, which I think isn't a popular life tool. Nobody wants to hear that, but it's the reality of it.

Yeah, something's got worse. Yeah. You know, like your body begins to fail after a certain age slowly through the rest of time, and then you just learn to deal with it. And I think that's sort of similar with grief, where it's just, you know, not like a healable space, more just like a manageable space. So when you say you weren't writing through that lens this time, and it was almost sad, is that because you felt some guilt about letting that go?

Yeah, I always saw my life as, like, past and future. I think that is a thing that can happen when you lose someone. just imagine yourself living with it into the future and you imagine them from the past. That's why I get obsessed with this rubber band analogy. But it kind of left out this presentness. And I love that. There was nothing wrong with that. All that writing means so much to me.

And I think I just included the present piece in a way that I never had, which is a bit of a shock to the system to the band. I've heard you talk about how pivotal, obviously. in your life, but also in your music, the death of your sister was because the family's focus was on her when she got sick. And they sort of said to you, go do your thing, go play music, get in the minivan, go play gigs. You know, I was sort of, I didn't grow up with like a lot of like social norms of what you're supposed to do because my parents just felt like they were

like frying a bigger fish or something. Because you were sick. in a great way, they just didn't care. They were just like, I don't care. Skull doesn't really, like, do what you want to do. You can, you know, I was lucky.

They said, I could just live at home. I just lived at home for a long time until I was, like, 26. And you kind of don't care about those things. I think there's, you know, there's a lot of, anything tragic that happens, there's a lot of, like, emotional awakening. You know, I never,

which I think has been nice for me. I never really sweated the small stuff probably because of that experience. I still kind of felt that way. I don't really care about anything that, to me,

doesn't really matter, which is kind of your people and what you make and how you treat your people and whatnot, you know, which is a nice tool to live with

because it's just a lot of shit just really doesn't matter and it can really bogg you down and get in the way. Probably why I'm pretty productive in the studio because I can really leave everything at the door. You got perspective. It's a crappy way to have to get it, but you got perspective.

I got my own kind of perspective. I mean, some people will call it deranged because I just, I'm basically like hyper-focused on my family, my friends, my audience, and my work. And then nothing else, you know, if, yeah, I just, I've always felt pretty certain of what I'm doing and why. I'm doing it, so I don't, I have a lot of thoughts when I'm walking down the street, when I wake up and all that. But once I step into either of those zones, there's a bit of a fearlessness towards the rest of the world because it's kind of all I need. It's like that feeling when you're on a plane with the people you love, and you're like,

all right. You know, when you're on a plane alone, sometimes I'm like, this is unnatural. But if I'm with my wife and my family, for example, I would be like, not too nervous. We're all moving together. Right. Right. We're together in this. Hey guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Stick around to hear more from Jack Antonoff right after the break.

Welcome back now more of my conversation with Jack Antonoff. So I'm curious about the origins of your musical talent. I mean, it's one thing to pick up with guitar and you started the band, Outline, right? Yeah, my first band was called Outline. You were called... That was high school band, right? We had a name before it that wasn't, when my mom said, was flatline. Oh.

My mom was a nurse and she was like, no. You're not going to call you written flatline. And we made a shirt and looked cool because it had a did-de-da-d-d-d-and-a-d-flat line. Sure. So we changed the outline. Did it change the merch after that? Had to. We really took a bath on that.

But what sparked this musical interest first and then the gift, clearly have for producing and making a song? I don't know. I always played. Yeah, I always, you know, it's something I, I, I just always wrote and I always played and it just always kind of was what I did and found a lot of joy in doing. But all of it, because I always, I always try to articulate this to people because they don't understand, like, you know, like, there's, there's all these things. different loves within what I do. Like, I love being on the road. Like, just literally living on the road. It makes me feel like, kind of like, literally, like, I'm just, like,

rocketing towards something new. I also love playing live. Love being in the studio. Love writing, love engineering, and literally production and producing. Those are really separate things. And I kind of just always did them all. And then I realized somewhere in there that I just got a great amount of I could feel myself in those things. They were all connected in a way. You know, I had friends who loved playing guitar. I had friends who were like great writers or great singers of this, but I kind of always loved the whole circle of all of it.

And it was when I was doing all of it that I could really recognize myself the best because they're related. It's like the way I write is talking to the way I perform. It's the way I live on tour. it's the way I produce things like they're just, it's one kind of thing that I see

but yeah I just always did it and then at some point I realized what I was doing you know when I was younger I didn't think about it I wasn't like I'm a songwriter I just wrote songs

which is kind of what it is like if you write songs anyone who's watching this as a songwriter they'll know like you're just you're kind of always humming in you I always think about catching ideas. You're just kind of like

seeing things and thinking things and anyone's a song reader nowadays probably just has like a notes app full of ideas and voice notes full of melodies. You just grab it. It's always happening. You got to be careful when it starts to become something that people

know you for that you just maintain that joy of it being a language that you speak through. Not like a commodity that you that gives you money or relevance because that's not where it comes from in anyone. You know, no one says, like,

I'm going to do this as a job. You know, it's a literal language. If you do say, I'm going to do this as a job, then you're not speaking the language. You're doing like a, you know, it would be like me pretending to speak Japanese. It would be like those aren't words. And the same thing with playing live.

Like, there's this feeling of, I think the feeling of playing live can just be most distilled and every night is like the last night on earth and everyone I know who loves to play

and can communicate through live show has that where it's sort of like when you're up there it's just there's no tomorrow there's no yesterday and that's it

it's kind of that feels when you're writing it's how it feels when I'm producing these sort of suspensions of time if you're lucky enough to find something that can make you forget literally anything then you should

stay there as long as you can without ruining your life so at what point then does this love this language you're speaking become a plausible career in other words you've got the bands you're having time you're writing songs but when do you say I think this is my life now this is my job now it was one year I made 40,000 $1,000, which was more money when I, it was, I just remember thinking, like, whoa, like, I could really exist. Because, you know, you spend a lot of your life doing this, making negative sums of money and needing a support system,

needing a parent's house to live in, right? Needing a friend's van to you is needing, you know, there's, especially, you. America artists are very under-supported. It's just not seen... It's total bullshit because it's actually a huge industry and there's plenty of jobs in it and there's tons of ways

to have a life within this. But I remember one year I was just touring and touring and touring and touring and touring and touring and I ended the year with $40,000 and I thought to myself like, I might be able to move out one day. day. And it was pretty powerful, you know, like to be able to be offered a life for the thing that

you love to do is incredibly powerful. And then things got better and better from that angle. But I had already made my deal with the universe. And I know I was, you know, completely, you know, I had no money to my name and nothing going on for long enough while my friends were getting apartments and having real jobs and having kids. I wear that as armor, though. Like, it was, you know, I don't know. I don't know what it would be like to not have those experiences, to not have that decade where no one was coming and no one cared. And because it really becomes, yeah, like armor. Like, it's just kind of, I'm in it regardless.

and I'm happy it's gone well, but I also love hearing you talk about The View from New Jersey because I know exactly what you're talking about. My town in Ridgewood, there's literally a place called The View. Yeah, you see the city. Where you go and you can look at the city. And growing up there, we'd go up there and you go, I'm going to get in there. I don't know how, but someday I'm going to be in that town. I don't know what that looks like. Totally. Well, because there's anything. I mean, there's not one thing that isn't bigger, better, cooler in New York. It's like, whether it's like stockbroker or artist, it's like probably going on in the city. So can you explain to people, explain to people who don't get it what it's like to have that sort of jersey mentality.

I call it medieval because you have that Hudson River, which is like a moat. I've been, you know, when I was a kid, I was obsessed with the sort of like right outside the window of the party, you know, outside looking in, aspirational. Now I've come at it from like an analytical scientific point of view. Like I would love it if someone with a degree would do a study on the literal amount of energy that comes off of New York City, literal energy, and then sort of dies and falls on Jersey like ashes. Because if you look at New York City, it's like crazy, right? Vibrating. Vibrating.

If a windmill can produce energy, Jesus Christ, like, what is New York City producing? And then, like, what does it do scientifically to a population of people who feel the, like, ash of that energy? Does it inspire them? Does it create a malaise? Because what we're talking about, this view, aspirational or minimizing however you want to

take it, there's like a literal thing happening, there's a literal energy force that's like smashing out of the city and hitting you. Yeah, I've become obsessed with it on that point of view, like, can someone make that study? Like, are people from New Jersey

like completely K-shaped where they're either going to like be like, eh, or like, let's go. And there's like no middle because of that. I don't know. That was my experience. Like, sort of New Jersey felt like a no middle-like people were either like head on fire. Right.

Let's do this. Or like, I'm cool. Yeah. Or you resent it a little bit. Yeah, really. I mean, the amount of people I knew who lived six to ten miles from New York City and just never went. It's another planet. Yeah.

Even growing up, we went so infrequently. I would go to see like the smashing pumpkins at the garden or cabaret once a year. Same. Yeah. My mom would take me to fan of the opera. Yeah. our New York night. And New York was different than, you know, this is pre,

this is pre sort of like, like Giuliani before he curdled, you know, when he was like a weird, like, folk hero cleaning up the city, which I'm sure that has a different tenor now if we really look at it. I'm a jerk off. But, uh,

but he, like, I would come in, it would be like so crazy. I remember that hallway walk into the garden. It felt like that scene in a little murmurated, like the poor and, fortunate souls, like grabbing it, Ariel, it was like, grimy, and I was like, it was like, oh, it's crazy. It was like, like, it looked like a scene

from a movie about a city. Yeah. It looked like Ari Aster's city and Bo is afraid. It was like, one guy dancing, there's one guy with a knife, there's one guy like swinging his dick around, like, and so my parents were like, get in and get out, like, New York's crazy.

Yeah. Because they also grew up with like 70s, 80s, New York, which probably was crazy. Right, right. But yeah, New York's New York City was dangerous and rough and wild when I was growing up or at least felt that way and New Jersey was a place where you'd come home,

gather your thoughts from everything you just saw and put it in your own blender and see what... Because I think a lot about where you're reporting from. I was reporting from my home in New Jersey where nothing was happening. The polar opposite of city music. I'm still reporting from there. No matter where I am.

And we've mostly moved back to New Jersey at this point. it's nice. It is nice. It's nice to go home and just be where you're... These landscapes where we're born, especially for art, are so in our DNA. And to reinvest in them and be a part of them, it's a bit why I don't love going to the mountain or the far-off place or the random house in Costa Rican making the record that way.

I find that there's a bigger wealth of deepening your writing and your writing and your process in around the walls that know you and highways, landscapes that you've driven over and over. They more don't allow you to escape. So then you're left

with two options which is sort of regress or push forward. You never want to get Cowboys syndrome, you know, go to Texas buy a pair of boots and a hat and then get home and be like, who's that? Well, part of that landscape for us, obviously. musically in New Jersey is Bruce Springsteen.

Best. And you got him on Chinatown on your last album to be on the song and also to be in the video. There you are riding around in the Cadillac with Bruce Springsteen. What did that mean to you? Was that sort of a milestone in your career? It was pretty poetic. I known him for a bit before then. He's very important.

Him and his wife Patty are very important people in our lives. But you know, you just grab these perfect moments. That song just made so much sense. I was writing a song about leaving New York City, driving over the bridge, showing someone the place you're from. So it was kind of that one perfect opportunity to do something together.

You know, it's always any kind of collaboration. I don't think people would think this of me because I've had some notable collaborations. But my actual belief, I've just been very lucky, but my actual belief is that collaboration sort of rarely works. And when it does, it's sort of amazing. You have to grab it, but it's never something to be forced.

And, yeah, that was just one of those where it just one plus one equaled way more than two. And it was really beautiful. There's a good shot in that video of, you know, where you're both standing behind the Cadillac, and he starts his first verse. And you kind of like get this little smile on your face and turn and walk away, almost like, Yeah, what I'll be? is what it is it's incredible

he's just you know and I feel this way about a lot of all the greatest the goats of their work there's just no

there's just no nothing but the thing you know you start to realize that as you get to know what you know there's no bit you know he's just him you know

and a lot of people who I love and work where they're just sort of them And then understanding that there's no big emotional parade or show or, you know, it's not dressed up in any way is really powerful because you're just sort of like, that's it, that's it. Just drill down to the center of who you are. You know, often people like that seem like caricatures themselves because there's just no bit. That's just it. Yeah.

I always joke about that with, like, Lana. I saw her yesterday I was talking about some thing I said about her for an interview or I was like, there's no bit. She just drives around in her truck drinking gas station coffee, forget what I said. You know, like makes her calls.

And then somewhere in the midst of that is one of the greatest songwriters of all time. And voice of an entire time period. So it's like that's it. And I think sometimes people need to believe that

there's this like insanity, there's this heroin, there's this crazy for artists to make their work. But it's just a thing that comes out. You know what I mean? Yeah. And if you're lucky, if what comes out of you is appealing to more people than just yourself or your people around you. Yeah, I always say it's like messages in a bottle. It's like you do you, you write your poems, you make your songs, you chuck them out there, and then you're just looking for your people.

Yeah. Which is always a funny thing when you play a part like I do where I'm always pushing and pulling on culture and I love pop culture and I love the way people react to it and whatnot. But, you know, that doesn't mean that I'm doing anything besides just launching my messages in a bottle out there and looking for my people. That is it. If it's one in this town and one in this town and one in this town, and one in this town, and then you say, hey, we're going to be in this town and then they all come and meet, that's what this is. That's all this is. And if that show has 20 people or 20,000 or 100,000, that just has to do with how people are feeling at the time.

Yeah. And those crowds obviously got very big for you with fun when you guys started having number one songs and winning Grammys and all of that. For you personally, I'm sure, very exciting, musically. Complicated. But like, for you, what was it like to become famous that way? It was complicated.

That band was always a side project for me. You know, like I always wrote and performed my own song. So that band started with three friends and just kind of... became very stressful when it took up more in my time than I was willing to give. I don't have that problem in my life now, but there's an interesting lesson to learn that, you know, sort of whatever seeds you plant, you know, make sure there's like room in the garden for them. I don't really have to, that's fine analogy, but like, you know, like, you know, I don't want to be,

there's no more horrible feeling than being away from something you want to be at. Yeah, but we were just so young I didn't know how to say no then. So hard. And it got so big, right? So fast it was hard to pull back. It also got big in a weird way. It got big in this sort of like mainstream world,

which I didn't know much about at the time. So my reaction was sort of like, oh, okay, like I don't know how this works. You know, and when you don't know how it works, everyone's just sort of like, well, if you don't do this, you'll never play Germany again. Or we have to do this right after this show or else, you're like, oh, okay.

And it's like, no, no, that's not really how it works. like you're a human being, you need to create and to live a life where you don't turn into a zombie is paramount, everyone will be fine, you know. You feel like you got put into the machine and here's how it works now. Oh, hard poor. Yeah. I mean, we turned into, that band turned into like a commodity for,

yeah, and it just became this, the world's a big place, we're just flipping all the world on here. And you lose something in that that is, you know so i mean i've i that was an amazing lesson of just learning like what how to say no and kind of like it doesn't matter if something's going to be successful you know i remember that time people like you have this because it'll lead to this and it's like well do you care it's really easy when someone's like this is forward and you're like okay and but you're like

well maybe not to me um so there's cool learning stuff. You know, I've really figured out now, like, with my band and with other things I work on, like, just like what I care about and what I don't. And if you don't care, then run for two reasons. First of all, you'll wear your soul thin, but also don't take someone else in space who does care. Something that might feel like trash to you might be brilliant someone else, and vice versa. There's things that I do that maybe someone else would never want to do. And I'm happy that I have space to do them because someone else isn't doing it just because they, said yes, you know. And so there's, the ecosystem of art, I think it flows so beautifully when people

are doing what they want to do. It's why my world is, my little world, you know, my band, the people I work with are so nice, because it's just we're all making things we want to make. And it doesn't, and it gets so, like, wrench in it when space is taken up. I think that's why, like, Trump is so goddamn annoying. It's just like, ugh, like, leave some space for the artists, like please like go away. Blocking out the sun. Yeah like stop blocking out the sun. Like people, it feels away about a lot of politicians.

Like can you like, can you like fuck off for one second? Like like it's just like there's only so much time. We're learning that lesson with streaming services. Like Netflix used to be the wild west and now it's like, you know, there's only so much space. There's a finite amount of space and sometimes a million equals zero. So how do we like gracefully fill? all those spaces with things that mean a lot. It's a big thought in my head because you never want to put anything out into the world.

I never would. That isn't just like truly something you think needs to exist. And that's what you do. I mean, the bleachers is that. The people you work with, the artists you mentioned is that. And I guess it was right around the time fun was going on hiatus that you started producing. Yeah. Right?

A little bit. I always loved doing it. I just, a lot of the success of that band enabled me to, people to be like, a little bit more willing to imagine that I could, or letting you into a door. There's a lot of weird barriers of entry and gates and, you know, you can't be in this club unless you're in this club, but the only way to be in the club is to be in the club. And sometimes you're just like, I think that's everywhere, unfortunately. Well, it helps when the first person, I guess, to approach you to produce is to tell you. She opens the doors. She's the first we're going to say,

but that's sort of everything we're talking about. You know, like, it's not that deep if you have, if you have like real, real, just like sureness and power and guts, and like you just know what you feel. You know, there's no big, giant machinery that's making all the decisions.

It's just an artist. And just, cool, I like this. That's all it is. You know, and the, stories go on and on and on. There's just endless stories. The more I'm in the studio and you meet people and stuff, you always hear how things are made.

It's always some funny thing. But that's the big joke about culture and mainstream is that the bigger things get, the more this industrial side of it sort of comes along and is like, this is how it has to be done, this is how it works. But it's not true. You know, people really are super fascinating and people like fascinating things. and that middle tier is often controlled, but that upper tier,

it's like you think about the, not just artistically greatest, but most successful artists in history, it's like, it's not milk, it's like Prince. You know, it's like, Eddie James, it's like Johnny Mitchell, you know, like, you start to realize the longer you do, the same thing with films.

We've re-watched Apocalypse now, and it's like, I think that movie probably made a lot of money over the years. Right. People are so hungry for really interesting connection. And then there's all these industries that sort of get in the way in the middle. And someone, a real thinker, just kind of tells you how it's done. It's not something you can tell how it's done. It's like, you know, saying like I can grow a flower better than anyone.

It's like, I don't know. Right. That's why I think it's so funny. to do this work, there's so many opinions. And it's like, wow, I've never been confronted with so many opinions about something that, like, you can't, like... Right. I met a person this morning who was helping build something in an apartment, and we were speaking about it. And it was like, we're talking about dimensions and stuff.

I was like, oh, that's fair to have opinions. Like, the table will be this higher, the short, but you're talking about, like, songs and albums and, like, how something interacts with culture. It's just, like, such absurd to claim that you can just do that or know the answer. That's why we try to come in like incredibly not humbly but just sort of like open a little more like this in the morning. Yeah. Well I want to ask you about that process

because I think people are fascinated by they know that you've been a producer and a writer on some of the biggest albums. All the Taylor stuff. Landa Do Ray, you mentioned. The list goes on and on. If I asked you how you... To produce your album. You don't want to be. want that.

You're just ruin your reputation. No, no, no good. But let's say Taylor walks in here, let's make a song. Just for the layman watching right now, what does that process for you look like? Where do you begin? Well, it's pretty rare that anyone's ever

just like, let's make a song. Usually there's a reason. But if we were totally messing around, then you just start messing around. I'd have a couple of instruments up that I think are interesting. I'd have things up that I, you know, some sounds that are, are new to us that we haven't used before,

something that could just spark something. But more importantly, I think, well, no one's ever like, let's make a song, because that's sort of like tempting. That's like, let's win this game. It's more like, let's just play. The way more happened, it usually starts with, like, I feel like there's a level of conversation about what's going on in life as it relates to the world,

personally, yada yada, where you start to share enough that someone will say something really like, ooh, like, you know, maybe that's a start of something and then you start messing around. It's a bit more, like, that's why these long relationships from me are so powerful and work well is because there's this belief that we can do it, you know, sort of achieve the impossible, so then it makes the process of, like, getting over the hump almost like easier, you just start messing around a little bit more belief. Like, oh, that's a cool sound, let's do this, let's loop it and put some drums on it. It's pretty loose. It looks like messing around. A lot of times songs, unless their songs are like written in like a very like song

way, a lot of times ideas that turn into great songs come from just like one thing that just is like, oh, that excites me. And this is essentially how a fan finds their favorite music. Like if you listen to a playlist, you're like music, music, music, then you'll hear one thing. You're like, huh. And it's not necessarily something that's so different. It's just there's something about the way it is, the way someone said a word, right? The word they chose, the way someone played a thing, like these little things, like,

why is that goddamn Phil Collins fill? And they told the story a million times about it being recorded to talk back. Just sounds like it to revert to me. Whatever. Why is that Phil do more for, you know, it's just you can't really quantify it. And it's the same moment where we're starting something,

is waiting for something to click. So it's kind of a tone more, like here's where I am right now. and here's some thoughts I've had. It goes through periods. Everyone, myself, and everyone I know go through periods when we feel like we need to speak and periods when we feel like we need to think. And when you're in those periods,

then you're going and you're going and going. And once you figure out what an album is, then you're really going, because then you're seeing it almost like finishing a puzzle. You're like, all the green pieces, let's go out, you know, then you're really seeing it. So I would say this is like the big elements are like starting an album.

them and then that sort of middle where it's like you know what it is you understand the framework and you're just like in this like mad dashed offender that's when you have to like stay on it that's when you have to meet every day and get it all and then you feel it when it's and you're like okay we've gathered all the bits and now we need to make sense of them i don't know it's tough to explain well it's hard to articulate yeah it's really hard to articulate for you right it's all feel and there's so many years behind doing it that at some point, I'm not really positive where it's starting and where it's ending.

I'm just doing it. I'm playing instruments, I'm writing, and I'm making, depending on who I'm with, I'm doing different things. And it's just that, all the process, all the technical skill, I think this is why I don't like sort of this culture of like, this is how you do it. Because that's sort of the, you know, like,

yeah, like go learn piano, Learn how to work pro tools or able to do it is. Learn how to do this. Learn how to sample. Learn how to play bass. Learn how to, you know, EQ something so you can hear what you hear. But at the end of the day, like, that's all just like, you know, like you're not sitting around, like, dying to know how the painter mixes the paint. You didn't mean?

Like, it's sort of, it's the piece after that. Like, that's all stuff that you just have to know and even know how to do it just so you can express yourself. Like, it's like language. Like, you can't be stopped because then that can kill the process. And that's, I don't know how many long that takes, but that's something for years and years and years, I've chipped away just to be able to have an idea and make it. You know, maybe not perfect, like, but if I hear something, be able to actually hear it in reality. But it's everything after that, because that's just happening, just playing and moving and making music, throwing things out there, just chucking it all up there. the real thing is recognizing when you hear something that makes you feel alive.

Really makes you feel like, oh my God, I have this crazy, crazy thought, which is that this needs to exist in the world. Which is a crazy thought, which deserves credit how crazy that is. That's sort of the boldness about making work is to make something and then believe it should exist. And not only should exist, but to believe it has even more than a much. money value, a someone's time value? It's a huge ask. It's a huge, like, deep, powerful and humble ask to say to the world, like, this is important enough for me to put in front of you. I think that's why so many people then have to cover themselves with like, I'm the shit off, you know, because it's like, that's so hurtful to say that. But there's so much power in saying that,

when you do it for years and years and years and years and you put yourself on the stage, and you put yourself, you put the music out there that you believe in, like, you start to, like I've said a few times just like wear it is armor. But yeah, to own that boldness like being in love or you know like cooking something

for someone, you're going to eat this and it's going to be great. Like that's pretty powerful. There are videos I can call up online that are popular of you and Taylor in a room writing a song. There's one that getaway car. That video was popular

for the perfect reason which is the only time in my life, a million hours I spent in studios that a camera was ever on, no offense, when magic actually happened. And she was just had her iPhone on for whatever reason. Yeah.

And I think that's why that video became so popular, because it was real. There was the only time in my life when I've had all these experiences where like this crazy kinetic energy is happening, you're writing on the fly and you're getting it. That was, it was just a real moment. And I don't know why her,

phone was on, but thank God it was. And I've never had anything like that. So why do you think you and Taylor work so well together? What's the magic there? Um, she vacationed on the Jersey shore, I think, when she was a kid. So that's, so there's a sense of, um, no, I'm kidding. That's forever. I don't know. I could quantify our relationship in very reductive ways about the things we agree on, the sounds we like. But the truth is, we've just grown together. She's put an amazing amount of belief in me. And it's powerful.

It's powerful for someone to, just like the way we met where I was working and I was loving what I was doing, but sort of the industry was kind of like, you can't produce it. She's like, no, you produce this. And, you know, that relationship has gone on and on and on. And I think we've just pushed each other endlessly

to grow and grow and grow and grow while never losing sight of the point. When we're in a room together, it feels like this crazy blend of like two kids in a room, two old professors in a room, to like teenagers in a room, to like young adults in a room. It feels like we're just sort of like living all of these lives

and accessing all these different things. And I'm never, there's no part of me that ever thinks anything's endless because when you're making things with yourself or with someone else you just sort of mind is sort of blown any time

that that like God is present in the room and in a world and in an industry that is so obsessed with like disrupting and changing and this and this Taylor and I have done

and because of her belief has just sort of been like, no, there's something deeper, bigger, better, more new, more fascinating, more ambitious in like drilling further and further into this language and this relationship. And I completely credit her with that because it's actually very odd. It's very irregular.

It's not really how many people work anymore. But those are like a lot of my favorite, this isn't something we talk about, you know, but it's just sort of like these relationships that go on and on and on, creatively, you can break these new grounds together because of all the armor from the past. And I think she's fearless with that. But it's hard to describe what happens in the room.

I often listen back to the recordings and kind of have just sort of flashes of making them. That's why I like that getaway car video so much because I'm like, oh, there's like proof. Right. That's how it happened. And you're just like, because I'm so at a loss sometimes. When she writes a song and brings it in, that's easy. Then I'm just, you know, like standing up to the task of producing it to its best self.

And I can remove myself because I'm just hearing the songs. That I can just be like, wow, it's one of the perfect songs. But when we do things together and things sort of like fly out of the walls, those are the moments that I'm a bit like, I guess there's a level of like adrenaline. that when it's done, you're kind of like, sometimes I'll text and be like, glad that exists. Stick around for more of my conversation with Jack Antonoff right after a quick break. Welcome back now to the rest of my conversation with Jack Antonoff. What's it like for you to sit in a room, write a song, and then hear her or any artist go into a football state of 80,000 people and have them all sing every word back, knowing that this.

two of you sort of crafted through that in this quiet little place to see it out in the world. What is that feeling like for a songwriter and a producer? Oh, it feels like the, you know, maybe you feel like not less misunderstood, but to be acquainted with people who understand something that's a deep, deep part of you is there's something, um, uh, makes the work. a little less scary or something. I've always felt that way. Like, when I play shows and people sing back,

or if I watch something that I was a part of and people are reacting to it to a sort of way, it just makes you feel like there's people out there in the world who recognize this thing in you. And then you recognize it in them, and then it's just a really special, kind of ongoing, like,

even no matter how big it is, even like a football stadium, almost like secret language and relationship. Yeah. If you take it the right way, I think it can make you feel like these conversations can deepen, you can stay in them. If you take it the wrong way, then you probably like buy an island or some...

Is it funny? Yeah, the God complex is alive and well in our culture right now. Yes. It's produced no good art, just a bunch of people disrupting something that already worked. which is what I keep feeling about like I'm sure someone said this but it's like the other day someone was like pretty soon

all the streamers are going to get together and be available for one price and I was like wow like cable or like when Chris Rock went live on Netflix and everyone was like can you believe it? I was like yeah like TV or like what Uber did to cabs in New York

we broke the whole thing just to make it exactly what it was. It's so um, uh, yeah, that's why it's nice to come

write songs where you actually feel like you're disrupting something big like in the soul where you're not just out there being like, if I ruin the salad and then resell the salad with a different name, I'll be, I'll be billionaire to. I'm a genius. I'll be a billionaire boy. Yeah.

And then I'll have weird billionaire beard. You know that beer? I don't know. It's not exactly scrub. It's so crazy. It's just like, people look deranged right now. Like, I'm sorry.

Like, if you're just, like, open Instagram, like, the way people look, and I'm equal opportunity, everyone, my wife and I were talking about it in bed, like, people look nuts. Like, just, like, absolutely nuts in a way that leaves no room for nuts people to be nuts.

Right, you don't know the difference anymore. And it's like, yeah, the disruption. I think a lot about, like, disruption by a bunch of, like, people who just like, now that we're living in this age of sort of like, I think about that a lot of streaming, like. Or like, I heard the other day someone was like,

we're working on this thing for like Instagram pop-ups. So it'll be like an area where it'll be like a bunch of Instagram shops. You can go shop in person. Like, oh, the fucking ball? Like, right? You ever read about this? Oh, that's so good. It's like, and we watched it as a musician.

It's like everyone just like broke vinyl. It was like vinyl and was like vinyl. It was like, no, everyone knows vinyl. It's just not selling as much as it did. like just chill out like you don't have to like rock it into the other direction and now they shut down all the plants and now we're like scrambling to open new plants and like you can't make enough vinyl to sell and what you realize when you do things long enough is just like there's just like an entire group of people who are just like waiting to like disrupt something to just repackage it the same way and then we all to like live through the period of the disruption which is remarkably boring like when we pay for all the these different streaming services like, I'm not like, this is awesome. I'm like, just figure it out. Like, please, like, in two years it's not going to be this. So why must we go through it now? Like, all this like endless ticket master stuff. It's like, just figure it out. Like, why wait for the

government to smash you to bits? Like, it's so exhausting. And like, so many of us, like, need that money. And like, like, must you exhaust this to this point? So... To your point about streaming, somebody wrote a piece recently that says TV is the new TV. It's it just could come all the way back around. It is. I mean, literally. In one year, we'll just be flicking through all the different streaming services. And then we'll have to go into those streaming services

to see the different programs. So in a way, it's worse than cable. Because at least with cable, you could just see, like, football, cooking, VH1. The Logins and the password. And it's just, I just want to get on with my day. And I feel like,

well I guess that's a function of like our time being the new commodity. Yeah. Like or monetizable. I were talking at Holy Land, and I was like, when they were trying to sell us like a toaster or a TV, a TV little different, or like a table or whatever it is,

it's like all they care about is that we buy the table. It doesn't matter how much we use the table. No one's like every time you make toast, we make money. So I work really... That's an idea, by the way. It is an idea, and it's coming soon. It's called,

the fuck you toaster. And the toast is the same, but me and my people have disrupted the toast industry to the point where when you make toast, we'll make more money. And there's a small rebate if the toast is like grain-free, and if you can prove you've been

composting, then we make a little less money, but we still make a ton of money. And then the toaster explodes and your house burns down and you can't reach us. And it's connected to your Apple Pay. And it's connected to your Apple Pay. Yeah, and it's called you Toaster.

And, oh, this is great. The entire product line. Yeah. But it's a huge part of the studio because I think so much about the way people get like ripped off on a daily basis, how I get ripped off on a daily basis. And I'm just like,

this place is just so precious. As the world screams on and on, it feels like more and more precious to me to hold on to this and to not, and to break, not break the form, but break the, break the feeling. You know, like,

you know, there's no new piano, there's no new drum kit. There's synthesizers, but there's really just, you know, the Model D, the profit,

the OBX, the military, you know, there's, there's not a million, you know, there's, the oscillators

are kind of doing what they're doing, you know, like, there's 12-string guitars acoustic, but there's sort of like this set of things,

and it's what you do with them. You know, it's the way that, if I go to some restaurant and they've, like, done this and this, and steam this,

and put this here, and made the table edible, you're like, okay, but if I could give you the best pizza in New York, you'd be like, how? You know, like, it tastes like, it looks like the other ones. The process was the same,

but why is this so special? Like, that is entirely the experience of making records, which is why I get so exhausted by an industry obsessed with breaking the form because there's just no proof that anyone, like, we like songs, we like albums, We like parts of songs.

We like albums. We like double albums. We like TV shows. We like movies. We like paintings. Right? But like anytime someone comes along is like this is the new way we're delivering this.

It's sort of like, you've just missed the point. Right. It's the work. Like it's just the work. So like, but the reason why I get, you know, hence my f***er and streaming and all that, it can be exhausting when so much focus is on the delivery method. Because that has nothing to do with what happens in the room. Isn't the success of your work, though, proof positive that just doing the work and making something good does have a mass market appeal?

I mean, Taylor Swift is writing good songs. You're producing good songs and they're selling. No, because then you have an entire group of people who it needed to be their idea, too. So then the great irony about making records in having any success is you get success because you've done something that spoke to people. Right. And then the remarkable irony is an industry who then wishes you to do it again. because that's exactly not the reason. What I've done in my work and what people I love have done and can be challenging,

but it's sort of the only way is to just chart new spaces and try new things and report from where you are at that moment. Not regurgitate something because it just doesn't work. I always find that fascinating when people are making their second albums. When I ever meet someone making their second album, if I'm making a second album, it's your opportunity to signal to the world that you intend to grow and change. Or it's your opportunity to say, that was the best thing I ever did, and I'm just going to keep doing that. And it's really, really hard when you have an entire industry of people telling you you're never going to work again unless you do that again.

That's why so many of us shut so much out because it just can't help, you know, unless you can find It was rare, I'm lucky I have them. Those rare, rare, rare people who say, like, yeah, like, do you? Like, what's the next thing? Like, I have a great manager and, like, people who just really light a fire in you to continuously find yourself over and over and over again at wherever you are in life. Well, I can talk you all day about the fucking toaster, but I'm going to let you get on with your turn out. The fuck you toaster is coming to a kitchen near you, and it's going to drain your bank account.

Thanks, Anna. That was great. My big thanks again to Jack Antonoff. For a great conversation, you can download the new album from Bleachers now. And my thanks to all of you for listening again this week. If you want to hear more of our conversations with our guests every week, be sure to click Follow so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune in to Sunday today every weekend on NBC.

I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast.