Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - GRAMMY NOMINEE: Kacey Musgraves

Episode Date: January 31, 2025

Willie Geist sits down with 7-time Grammy winner, Kacey Musgraves. The two get together at Electric Lady Studios to talk about the inspiration for her latest album, her writing process and finding success while bucking convention in Nashville. (Original broadcast date March 10, 2024)  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks as always for clicking and listening along. I am very excited to bring you my conversation this week with seven-time Grammy winner Casey Musgraves. She is quite simply one of the best songwriters in the business right now. She just won, by the way, her seventh Grammy a few weeks ago for her performance on the Zach Bryan song, I Remember Everything. Casey and I got together at Electric Lady Studios in New York City down in Greenwich Village, just a few blocks away from Washington Square Park. If you don't know, Electric Lady Studios was an apartment building way back when purchased by Jimmy Hendrix, turned into a recording studio and has been the home and the recording place of everyone you've ever heard in music. Anybody you can think of has recorded an album there. It still has kind of a 60s 70s vibe to it. And Casey and I, when you hear us having our conversation, we are sitting in the very room where she wrote and recorded all of the songs on her new album, Deeper Well.

A lot of fun to talk to. Grew up in a tiny, tiny town in Texas called Golden and has risen up over the last decade or so to become one of really the most respected, but also the best artists in all of music. Kind of bucking convention in Nashville, as you'll hear. didn't step right in and do the typical country thing. She had a little bit more to say with maybe a little bit of a harder edge than some of the record labels thought she should have. But she is extraordinary. She is one of a kind. She's got a great story to tell.

And you're going to hear it right now with Casey Musgraves on the Sunday Sitdown podcast. Thanks so much for doing this, Casey. Thank you. I'm so excited to be in the room where it happened, as they say. This is where deeper well was sort of conceived. and written and performed, right, in this room? Totally, yeah. This is the studio that we kind of inhabited for the few months that we spent working on this.

And it was truly an amazing experience. What does this place mean to an artist? I love talking to artists who record in here or write in here. It seems like they draw some different kind of inspiration than they do everywhere else when they're at Electric Lady. Yeah, I mean, I think every studio has its own energy. You know, but this one has such a storied past, this building, and it being literally Jimmy Hendrix's apartment, like, right here. That's some seriously good mojo. And I just know so many amazing creatives are drawn to creating here, and there's a reason.

I think you've said it has great ghosts. It has good ghosts. Yeah. I was always trying to spot them myself, but I never got that lucky. But there are some, yeah, some characters apparently that roam the halls. There's like a 20s flapper lady and she's scared a few people away. Because it was a saloon and a nightclub before Jim bought it. So there's all kinds of things.

Yeah. And then he renovated it, made it his own, like, amazing studio. And I think it's pretty, like, it's very, I don't think he's been touched. Like, it's pretty original, you know. Yeah. No, I think, like you said, some of these murals are from when he was here. Yeah, he commissioned these, which is they still look amazing. They're still, like, space agey.

But, yeah, it's just like it's in the heart of Greenwich Village. And, you know, as you know, there's such a rich folk history, folk music history, songwriter history, poets, activism. All of that happened here. And I don't know. It just, I was very drawn to getting out of Nashville and creating somewhere where there was a different energy, different kind of life bubbling around you. And I just think New York is one of the most unique cities in the world. So it's inspiring for sure. You get inspiration just walking out on the sidewalk, basically, can you?

You know, yeah, like we would walk to. the studio most days through Washington Square Park. You know, and it's like, it smells like pizza and and like piss and weed and like perfume. And there's like a boombox playing reggae over here. There's skateboarders. There's people reading. And it's just like sensory overload, you know, and you're walking in the studio with your little blank canvas in your mind. And you're like, okay, what am I going to create today? And you're kind of through osmosis picking up all these sounds and sights and things. And I think, you know, maybe they weave their way in somehow. You really do get all the smells of New York, just in that one park. Just right outside on the side.

Right there. You are definitely the kind of person, I think it's fair to say, who draws inspiration from everyday life, right? Walking around, you see something at the grocery store, whatever it is. And you start writing a song in your head. Is that fair to say? Yeah. I think, like, for me anyways, inspiration doesn't really come, like in the, like from the grand, like the big moments. For me, it's like always the micro, the small, everyday moments. And I do feel like inspiration is available to everybody. You know, on that small level, you just have to really kind of tune in to see it. I mean, it's just really the human experience that inspires me. So I'm so interested always to hear how a great songwriter like you, and I do mean a great songwriter, and you show it again on this. That's subjective.

No, no, no, that is not. I think we all agree on that. And you hear it again on this new album. You're just a beautiful songwriter. Just your process. So you draw the inspiration, a thought gets, you know, sort of buried in your head somewhere. And then what do you do? Do you have a blank page in front of you or what does that look like? Well, usually just like when I'm on the go, I just throw it in my notes app, you know, it could be like a title, like a word.

And I'm like, okay, that would make a great song or it could be like a snippet of a conversation or like just an observation. Some sort of little seed or genesis, you know, goes in there and kind of just waits, you know, until I have time to dig it up and really sit down and like work on it. But whenever I'm writing and like actually sitting down to write, like a lot of people use like computers. and stuff, I just get too distracted. I like a piece of paper and a pen. And, like, I just keep it really tactile. And then it's awesome because you have all of your handwritten. Like, you have handwritten accounts of everything.

But there's something about, like, physically putting the pen on the paper that's, like, I just always go to that. And so you have stacks of paper effectively. And then you get in a place like this and you go, maybe that wasn't as great as I thought it was at the time. Yeah, I just kind of start over or, like, rework something. Yeah. And so you bring those sheets of paper in this room,

you got lyrics you think you're happy with. And then how do you put the music to it? How does that work? It really happens so conversationally. You know, I made the record with Ian, Fitchick, and Daniel Tashian. We made StarCross and Golden Hour together. We're great friends. And, yeah, I don't know.

We just kind of set out on a little journey together to explore, like, see what feels good. Talk about, you know, what might be inspiring at the moment. And someone will just, Daniel, somebody will grab a guitar and just start, like, playing some chords. and it's like either that feels, ah, what about this? You know, and we just collaboratively, like, just massage it until it feels like something. It's so fun. So, Casey, how do you know when it's time or that you're ready for a new album? Because it happens not on some schedule.

It's not like you're doing it every two years. It seems to me it's when you're ready. How do you know, okay, I'm ready to say something with deeper well? I mean, I think that the whole thing is, do you have something to say? You know, I don't. want to just scrounge around trying to find something to say that's when i know it's not like authentically time i think um but i think enough time went by from like enough time will go by from like a last project to where you're like i'm kind of getting the itch to create something again i don't really know what

and uh yeah luckily you just have the the creative freedom and time to just like not feel pressured to do something you know just explore see what feels good see what's out there like cast a line see what you you get, you know, and then you just keep doing that enough. And eventually, some sort of shape starts to emerge. So you mentioned your last couple of albums. Golden Hour is, I've found love. Star Cross is the Shakespearean. I'm in pain. I have heartbreak. Yeah. And that brings us to deeper well, which is what kind of album for you? Well, it's, it feels very grounded. I'm 35. I feel like I know myself better than, you know, maybe in the past, just getting older and learning about myself. I think this album, like, StarCross was very specifically about one relationship kind of in the end of that.

And deeper well is more maybe like some of the older albums, which is more just like observations on life and just human emotion and nature and like lightness, darkness. Like, God, what is the meaning of that word, you know? and what's on the other side of all this, you know? Just a lot, it's a lot more like life, I think. Questions about life. Yeah, I mean, you take the title track. You take deeper well, which I think you said something like this album is me ruthlessly clearing out my life. It's kind of like Marie Kondo starting over.

Yeah, it's ruthlessly, I wrote this down the other day, ruthlessly removing resistance to growth. And that could mean a lot of different things, you know. maybe a relationship just like isn't serving you well or you know you're just we got these habits that are just holding you back or you know whatever there's some growing up in that song maybe some growing up but not all the way just like a little bit just yeah yeah well in deeper well you talk about you know i've just decided the people in my life who are sort of taking from me or not making me feel good i'm just going to cast them aside it's nothing personal yeah i just yeah yeah need that energy is that yeah totally everything has a season you know

know, even friendships, even loves, you know, business relationships, whatever. It's like there are seasons maybe. And some are meant to go, I think, the long haul and then maybe some aren't. And I think just being able to tune into the awareness of like, okay, is this still right for me? You know, and not just coasting along and just accepting, oh, this is just the way it is. It's like, no, let's take stock here because everything can either feed you or drain you, you know, of energy, I feel. But that's hard to do sometimes, isn't it? Because the easy way is to coast and say, okay.

I don't love it, but it's more difficult for me to get rid of it. Or, yeah, or like, you know, being a people-pleaser and being like, well, it would hurt their feelings if I, like, didn't go, you know, hang out with them every Friday or whatever. But then when you leave the hang, you're like, why am I so drained, you know? Yes. Yeah, just paying attention, I think. And just giving yourself a break a little bit. Yeah. Making yourself happy.

Yeah. Yeah. You were talking about faith, too. there's a beautiful song I was talking about called The Architect, which is such a great way to tell that story and to approach that subject. What is that song about to you, The Architect? So I wrote that song with my two good friends, Shane McAnally and Josh Osborne. And I'd had that title for a while, again, just like in my back pocket, just like, okay, the architect. I had like, the giver, the taker, the architect. And I was like, are those separate songs?

Are they all in one song? Like, I wasn't sure. And then we got together in Nashville. And it was actually, it was a couple weeks after the horrific school shooting in Nashville, the Covenant thing that happened. And we were just sitting there. And it really, like, it just Nashville felt so dark there for a while. And like, we sat down and we're just like, God, what do we even want to talk about or write about? It feels, you know, superfluous to be creating something lighthearted while something just insane happened here.

But anyways, it led us into some interesting topics, and I pulled out the title of the architect. And I was like, do you think, you know, maybe is there something here that we could play around with? And anyways, it just turned into like a really inspiring conversation of like if there is something at play here, if there is something larger, a force of life, whether you call that God or nature or whatever, like, what is that thing? And if, and like, why is there so much suffering? You know, if there is a blueprint for all of this or like a plan, why are so many people hurting? Like, what is going on there? Because I would like to think that there's like, you know, some sort of positive force or like moving things along. But there could also, it could also not be.

Everything could be chance. It's like, what is it? We don't know. So anyway, it's interesting. It's so beautiful because you say, I'd like to speak with the architect. Yeah. And you apply it to beautiful things. like the Grand Canyon and then tragedies like you're talking about here.

There's another line in there. Like we have this great friend, Steve Marklin, and he was a big part of my career early on in Nashville. Nicest guy ever, like one of the best. Like he is so loved. And he just like had a really crazy year last year. Like several things like in a row were just like unbelievable. And one of the things is his house randomly burned down and they lost everything.

And so there's a verse in there. It's just like, you know, one day you're on top. top of the mountain so high, you'll never come down. And then, like, the wind changes just a little bit. And there's a spark in the wind and it can burn your whole house to the ground, you know. So it's just, it's just like, okay, what's going on here? You know, who's in charge of this? Is there anyone? It's a big question about faith that if there is a loving God, how to he or she allow the covenant shooting and you get at it in such a nice way. Yeah, it's really hard to wrap your brain around. I can't really. It's so interesting. I feel like we have so many, like,

facts and hard answers for everything in this life. And the main one, there's one that no one knows, you know. It's just interesting. Yeah. No, it's a beautiful song. So is Cardinal. It's a great. That's the first track, I think, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's interesting to me, too. I want to hear how you'd sort of organize the record in that way. But Cardinal, I think, has some questions about faith a little bit, too, in there? Yeah, just like, well, first off, have you ever heard the saying was it, when Cardinals appear, angels are near? Yes. It's a thing. And so a lot of people believe there's a, you know, a myth about Cardinals being Spirit Messengers or whatever. And I got to know and get

close with, who was so wonderful, John Prine, one of my mentors, like just heroes. He and his wife, Fiona. And after he passed away, there was just a lot of weird spiritual stuff that kind of started happening. And one of those was like this cardinal that would visit every day and just stare at me like through this window. And it would just like, it was just wild. So anyways, I mean, that's where the genesis of that song came from. And you're sort of asking the cardinal.

Are you here to tell me something? Yeah. Are you bringing me a message or, you know, are you just here waiting around for spring? Yeah. It seems listening to this record like you've been thinking a lot about spirituality. Is that fair to say? Yeah, I mean, I think I'm always just like, I'm always thinking about that kind of stuff. It's so interesting to me.

Yeah. So how do you then, that's your opener, then you go to deeper well, the title track. How do you, you've got this beautiful collection of songs. What's that process then? Oh, my God. How should we open? Yeah, I don't know. Okay, so like I'd like to think that I pride myself on making a good sequence.

But I just thought Cardinal would be such a great, like, that opener, that opening lick, you know. like if I dropped a needle on a record and I heard that like I would be like really happy. But yeah, I don't know. It's interesting because different songs can hit you differently like in a, like in a different sequence. Like songs that come before after each other, like can they can feel slower or faster dependent on each other. They can, different lines can stick out based on what was heard before. I just appreciate the entire album listening process, you know. I know we live in a world that think.

mostly about singles these days, but I just love the experience of like, here's a chapter, here's, here's, you know, something I was inspired to make. I want you to listen to it as a whole, a little world, you know. It's refreshing to hear because I think you're right, most people just drop singles here and there. Which is fine, you know, like little snacks. We like that, keep our attention. Absolutely. But yeah. But you're telling them, it's like chapters in a book, right? You're going to read the whole book to understand. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Stick around to hear more from Casey Musgraves right after the break. Welcome back now more of my conversation with Casey Musgraves. You write these albums and perform them so personally. So I'm curious

now the album's not out yet as we sit here. What does it feel like to be on the brink of this moment where your life is going to be back out into the open? Is that scary? Is it exciting? What does it feel like to release an album? It's all the things. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's, it's, mostly exciting. It's also exhausting, but creatively really fulfilling. I think that's my favorite role in life is to have some sort of vision on the horizon, kind of narrow it in, narrow it in the scope, and then kind of live in it, refine it, make it something tactile, and then, you know, and then using it to connect with other people. Like, that's so cool that that's like a thing I get to do. But yeah, but I'm naturally kind of a homebody. I love being like just with my friends and

like my dog and like my fireplace and kind of living my like quiet little alive like cooking and going to the farmer's market. So then coming up on a period to be more like public facing is like, it can be a little like, okay, here we go, you know. Right. This side of it. Just the music, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean, like you have all the creation. and that's so fulfilling, and then you've got to go promote it, which, you know, is a necessary part, and I'm happy to do it. It's just like, it can just feel like, oh, my gosh, here we go. Right. Yeah.

And there's also, like, a letting go process a little bit, I feel, to spending, you know, a year and a half or so with all these songs. They're so personal, and you're in the studio every day with, like, your best friends and you're, you know, you're crying together, laughing together. And it's like summer camping a little bit. a bit of a way and then, you know, it's over and you're like, wait. And you have to like, at some point put the pencil down and say, okay, this is what it is. We're done, you know, and it's time to share, you know, with everyone. But it's got to be beautiful then that next step, which is you're going to put it out. Millions of people are going to listen to it, learn it, love it.

And then the next thing you know, you'll be at a show, there'll be a whole bunch of people singing, back to the words you created somewhere in this room. No, it's really trippy, like the domino effect of that, you know. And, you know, once you release the songs that had their own meaning to you, all of these other meanings and stories and memories get attached to them. So then it kind of lives in this other dimension in a way, which is really cool. It, like, takes on a life of its own. And it's like, I think most creators, it's like when you start to feel like you're like,

you've worked on it so much, you've heard the song. so many times you're like, do I hate this? Is this any good? Like, have we like, like, ruin this record? It's like, then, you know, they get a second wind, a second life when other ears get to hear them. And so new life, you know, you get to, like, sort of live vicariously through their new listening. And it, like, it reignites kind of the love for what you've made, which is cool. Well, congrats on the album. Your fans are going to love it. Thank you. You're a whole bunch of new fans, too. It's really beautiful. Thank you. I have to congratulate you to on your recent Grammy.

Yeah. You just won another one? Number seven. Who's counting? I am. That is a great tune. How much fun was it to get together with Zach on that? Oh my gosh.

Well, it's kind of a funny story. I got asked if I wanted to do the song. And of course I was like, I'm down. But I wasn't feeling well. Like my throat was hurting. I had just gone on like this trip. And they were like, well, we kind of have a deadline. Like if you want to be on the song,

you kind of got to get it in by like this day. It was like in a couple days. And I was like, all right, I'll give it a shot. So like I go to the studio and I'm like, man, my voice is not cooperating. And I was like, I hope this doesn't really suck. But I got through the song and I did it. And I was like, all right, I feel pretty good about that. But I was like, I love the studio and I went to the doctor immediately.

And I had strep. And I like texted like the engineer. I was like, I'm so sorry. I had strep. And I was just all up in your space. But, yeah. Crazy. So that huge hit, Grammy-winning song was done with strep throat.

Yeah. Yeah. It's like sick as fucking. I'm just kidding. But, yeah, no. But it was really great to be asked by Zach. And I love the song. I mean, I connected with it immediately.

And I'm just gratefully asked me. And again, same idea. You do a song. You think is good. You can never imagine how it's going to ricochet around the world in that way. No, you can never tell. like what a song is going to do. You can love something and the whole world might not or vice versa.

Like it's just, I think there's so many factors I go into why something, people really connect with something. It could even be timing. Like, I don't know. But it was cool because, you know, the song has had a lot of popularity, like in spaces outside of country,

kind of in the pop culture world, I guess. And it just made me feel excited that real, like, songs are being, I don't know, like connected with and love just like even outside of country, you know, people that normally maybe wouldn't love a song like that. Like it was on so many playlist and things that I feel like, I don't know, you wouldn't maybe expect, which is cool. There's a lot of that going around. Am I right about that? Like you, obviously, at the forefront of it, Zach Ryan, Stapleton. You know, there's a lot of, it seems like the crossover has fully happened, just good songs.

where they come from. Yeah, just classic songs. Like, I think as a creator, you can get, you know, too concerned with like, am I writing bops? And it's like, well, we want to give the children bops. But at the same time, you know, I just want songs that will wear well over time and that I'll be always proud of and, you know, not chasing something that was popular right here right now. Right, right. Give the children bops. I like that.

Give the children, give the kids their bops. We need to give the gays their bops. But this record will be different for the gays. They can take a break from the dance floor. They can sit down, hydrate. They can, y'all need to hydrate. It's been too long. And then listen to some soft songs.

Get back out there. Like, it'll be a responsible respite for our gay friends. I like how you've thought this through. I have. This is a nice dance break. This is like, you've been on the dance floor. You need to, yeah, you need to hydrate and you sit down. Let's get some water in you.

Smart. Look at you. You're always thinking of everybody else. So I want to go back to the beginning. I promise I won't walk you through your entire life. Okay. But I'm so fascinated about when this thing started for you, which in that little town, Golden, Texas, which I think is less than 200 people.

Oh, it's a speck on the map. A speck on the map somewhere in northeast Texas, I guess. Yep. When did music come into your life and what inspired you first? Right. It's hard to even remember a time where it wasn't there. I think I was always just carrying around this little, you know, one of those like 80s, 90s, karaoke little tape machines with like the spiral cord to the mic.

I was just walking around. I was like, oh, verb, reverb, what? Anyways, just always kind of singing. And then my family, like, noticed that I had kind of a knack for that. And they kind of, you know, I was singing at the festivals and the fairs and church and school and stuff like that. You know. And then I think I was 12 and I got my guitar or I got a guitar. or I got a guitar for Christmas and guitar lessons.

And so from age like 12 to like 17, 16, 17, I took guitar lessons. You think I'd be better. But like for that amount of time. But what was really amazing was I would get off the school bus and I would like walk every week down to my little guitar teacher's spot. And it was interesting too. He like, he taught out of this. He lived and was refurbishing this like,

antique hotel from like the 1800s in our town in miniola which is where I went to school um and so it was just like that was a haunted place like what the hell I guess it's always been around um but uh anyways I would walk down there take my lesson from him John DeFore he was like an incredible guitar player taught so many students um and one thing that was cool about his lessons was that he wasn't like having me shred like scales and like learn technical, which now I'm kind of like maybe I should have. But his,

he really pushed me to write songs. Like he would, he taught me enough chords to build songs with. And then was like, okay, your homework is to go write a song. And next week I want you to come back and play it for me.

You know, he would make me a little work tape of it. He would critique me and be like, okay, you know, well, what about this chord here? Maybe you could try this or if you want to change the mood, you could throw a minor in here or what did you mean by this line?

You know, he would kind of like, was like a songwriting coach. Wow. And so it was really invaluable. And so I just did that over and over and like started getting a feel for, okay, well, you know, I grew up singing like classic country and western, like Western swing songs like, like, you know, the wholesome classics. And so as I got into be like a teenager and I had my own stories to tell, it was really valuable that I had like a kind of a form. at to like learn how to do that with. And then how crazy is like I end up moving to Nashville. I have a relationship with like a song publisher where they're, you know, I'm turning in songs. I'm turning in work tapes. I mean, it just set me up to know what that was like to get a feel

for that. Yeah, because that's unusual. Usually you have 30 minute guitar lesson, learn a couple of chords and go home and that's it. Yeah, no, it was a lot more than that. That's so cool. So you were writing songs when you were like eight, nine years old, right? Nine, I think was my first one. And it's such a thirsty title. It was called Notice Me. I don't know. Like, no. Just me. And you performed it at school, didn't you? I don't know if I performed that one at school, but also I might, could have, and I'm just not remembering.

Performed it somewhere, though, right? Somewhere. Yeah. The world saw it. The world. Yeah. Yeah. It was a soft launch.

Yeah. And what was your group was Texas two bits, right? Oh, gosh. Yeah. And you performed at the president's inaugural ball and all kinds of things. Oh, yeah. We did a lot of things around Texas. We yodeled in harmony.

and we like dressed exactly alike. Got to start somewhere. Yeah, I mean, that's a whole crazy story. But yeah, did that eventually move to Austin after high school. And I worked at a booking agency for like two seconds. I was a terrible employee. Terrible. Yeah, I think like my main role at the booking agency was like I convinced them to let me be the office party planner.

Oh. and have a budget for that. Oh. And then I also like negotiated. I was like, we need to redo this office. It was like in a strip mall. I was like, can I have a office decorating budget? And they gave me, they were like, yeah, sure.

They gave me like $150. and they were like, yeah, make this work. And it's so cringy. But I went to Home Depot. And you know like the paint that gets returned that like no one wants. Right. Well, it's a bargain paint. I was like, oh, cool.

It's like definitely within the budget. So like I went over there and looked around. and there was like this really terrible shade of purple. It was like Barney Purple and I was like, this is the one. This is like they're going to love this. And so I like come back to the office and I, me and this other girl like spent the night basically painting the entire office. Oh, you painted it.

Barney Purple. And they came in in the morning and they were all like, what the hell have you done? So yeah, that was. I love like you come in demanding a budget for parties and decorating. And then you paint the office purple. And then I left. And then I left. And I was like, got to go, y'all.

This isn't for me. They're like, sick. So you're in Austin and then at some point you do Nashville Star. And I think after that you realize I need to be in Nashville. Yeah. Yeah. Like I would come up and write with people. One of the first people I met in town was Radney Foster.

And he's like a big songwriter, classic songwriter in the Texas scene, but also Nashville. But he lives there. and he and his family kind of took me into their wing. They were like, you can come stay with us. Like, you know, they've got kids and dinners going on all the time. And they're like, you can crash here anything you need because they knew I was far away from my family. So then, yeah, I started to meet people and just would come back and forth so much that I was eventually like, I just need to be here, you know. Stick around for more of my conversation with Casey Musgraves right after a quick break.

Welcome back now to the rest of my conversation with Casey Musgraves. So what are those first years like? I don't think people know you as like a fully formed artist and star and your first album was a huge success and all that. But those grindy four or five years, whatever it was before your first album came out, what were those years like for you? Really fun. Nashville is like so exciting. I moved there like at the end of 2008. So it's been a minute.

But I rented a house like sight unseen on Shelby Avenue between six and seventh. And it was like, it was a really, the house had a lot of character, I'll say. And there was a woman that lived upstairs. The house was divided into two apartments. And I was on the bottom with a friend. And then this woman was upstairs named Mama Sophia. And she had a big yellow dog and no job, no car. But she had a golf putter that she would walk around with.

And she was like the best, trippiest lady ever. And we would like go up there and like smoke. we were there and like you know it just was like so many stories you know um and just like life lessons and playing songwriter rounds and handing out my demos to wherever and you know just doing like little odd jobs i had another job where i like dressed up as a character for like little kids birthday parties like for two seconds i had that what was the character well it was it was it was hannah Montana actually but um the next yeah because my friend worked for the the company and she was like, look, you can be Ariel and Cinderella and it's like, cool,

you get paid like $100 and like, it's easy. And I feel like a lot of people have done this, by the way. I think Lainey Wilson was a Hannah Montana impersonator. Really? I think that's like a thing that people coming up in country have done. That's so weird. I mean, yeah, that was just the character that I got asked for that day from that specific party, but, you know, Tinkerbell, like, Ariel, Snow White or whatever.

And then the next one that they called me for, they were like, yeah, we've got to, there's an industry birthday party down at the Palm Restaurant. and they need a French maid to come deliver balloons to the birthday boy. And I was like, nah, I think that's where I draw the line. So. That was it. Then I just went full tilt into songwriting. And the idea always was to be a performer.

Like songwriting was great and helped you pay the bills and enjoyed it, but you wanted to be on stage. Growing up, I was like, oh, yeah, you know, performer, singer, whatever. And then when I moved to Nashville and I actually got the chance to become a staff writer for Warner Chapel. which means I would like show up and write several times a week with just being paired with different writers that had never met before. And we would, you know, create songs and turn them in for them to be potentially cut by other artists, you know. And I had so much fun doing that that I was like, forgive me a performer. Like that is too public facing. And actually, I fell in love a song writing even more in that way. I was like, I can't believe I get to sit on a couch

and like take ideas from my brain and make them into something and like get paid. for that, that's insane. Yeah. It's hard to give that up. It's a nice gig. Totally. I'm like, so yeah, I mean, you know, so for a while I was like, I'm not sure if I want to do the whole artist thing, you know, and I would only want to do it if it was like, if it felt totally right and like the songs were right and I could really be me. Like I'm not, I'm just not, it's not worth it to me to like potentially be shaped into something else just for the sake of being an artist. Like, I'm not going to do that, you know. I would want it to be like, authentically me, you know. And so, you know, years past, I write hundreds of songs, like,

having, having a great time. And I get approached by a label asking if I want to deal. And it just didn't feel right. I turned them down. And I was like, I don't have the songs yet. If I was going to have, you know, something to say, I don't think I have that yet. And so I think another maybe like a year went by. And I ended up meeting or working with Shane, Shane McEnelley. and Luke Laird and we started writing all these songs and I was like, okay, I noticed myself going, okay, I don't want to turn this song in for another artist. I think this one's for me. And that's when I started noticing like, oh, I think maybe I'm saving songs for an album. Maybe I do want to do that. So long story short, I ended up signing the record deal.

And yeah, I already had like half of same trailer different park written. So, you know, it wasn't like they were signing someone that didn't know what they wanted to do. It was like I already had that. And so, you know, I kind of got the go ahead to just finish the record the way I wanted. And that was that. And there are two parts to that story of your first album. One is that it was a huge success, which, again, as you've said, with every, you don't know how it's going to go. Right.

And then it charts, goes to number one and does all the things it did. And also that you had, even at your young age and as a first-time artist, the courage, I guess, to say, no, this is the song we're going to put out. This is the album we're going to put out, despite maybe what some people in Nashville were telling you. Right. What was the message you were getting from the label? Well, it's a funny thing, right?

Like, artists and labels historically have always had a rub. And I think it's because, like, an artist wants to say what they want to say. And a label's bottom concern is, like, money. It's monetary, you know, monetary. So I think they can work hand in hand, but it can be tough. But yeah, like, you know, I just think their labels are looking at, it's kind of a fear-based mentality sometimes because they're like, well, this certain thing has worked before, but this new thing is coming along. And we don't know if we put all of our money into this thing, you know, and it doesn't work. We've lost all this money.

We already know this is going to work. So why don't we just create a few of those, a few extras of these things? because it's a formula that's worked before, but it's like, you know, we, all the, you know, the game changes that came along, Willie Nelson or like whoever, Loretta Lynn, Dolly Parton, it's like they were disruptors, and then they became the new normal

because they were given a chance to, too. So I think, you know, yeah, there's, it's just an interesting conundrum there. But, but yeah, I was met with some resistance, like, you know, some fear when I said, okay, I want Mary go around to be my first single. This is what I want to say to the world first. And, okay, let's do this.

You know, it was kind of like, you know, this is depressing. It's not going to do well for a, you know, a first time, like a female in country. It's this, this, this, this. So it's not going to work. It's going to go down in flames, you know. But I'm just like, okay, well, if I am going to go down in flames, I'd rather it be wholeheartedly for something that I truly believe in, you know, and then I know, okay, well, this just wasn't meant for me. But I didn't alter myself or change myself to try to get popular and always have something that's the real me, like, holding back.

You know what? I was like, that sounds like hell. Yeah. Because then there's just always this version that you're kind of waiting to drop on people, but they've already gotten used to this other watered down version of you. And I'm like, that's not, I'm not doing that. Like, I'll rather just like, I'll just go work somewhere else, you know, just do something. else. It's true and I get that, but it does take guts on your first album because that could be the end. If it doesn't work out. I don't know why that didn't occur to me. It's like, no, this is

going to work. But yeah, and then it goes on to win like Grammy's Song of the Year. And it's like, okay, that internal compass means something. Right. Now you can trust yourself. You were right about it. Yeah. And it's like, I may not always get it right, but all I can do is know what feels right for me, you know, and so yeah. I feel like Marry Go Round 2 is a good metaphor for almost your entire approach to country music, at least, which is you're not sort of going along with the popular narrative or the story. So you're telling a small town story, but it's not just Friday night lights and all the good parts. You say, let's be real about it.

Right. Again, it's the human experience, you know. It's maybe the thing someone doesn't really want to talk about or whatever, but it's something we're all experiencing, you know. So when the reception was as great as it was, when it did sell as well as it did, when you did get the Grammy, what did that feel like for you as a first-time artist? Oh my gosh. It was life-changing. Seriously, it was like, I don't even know if I can comprehend what this means. Like, it was really, it just felt really great to be validated for something that made me really feel so good, like, to create.

You know, and I knew that I wasn't giving up anything. I could sleep at night going, I'm really proud of what I made. This is me, you know. And you know that people like it now. You can keep doing it your way. It essentially, I think, more than anything, you know, awards are awards, opinions are opinions. But like nothing for nothing, something like that, it does give you creative freedom. You know, it like gives you the freedom to say like, this is me and this is what I'm doing.

And this, it worked. So back off. I know what I'm doing here. Like, this is, yeah, yeah. By the way, I'm sure the same people who are telling you, you can't do this the first time, we're saying, that was great. Oh, of course.

It's look what we've done. Do it again on your next one. Oh, we did it. It's we did it. You know, and you're like, mm-hmm. And your next album's a hit again, no pageant material. And then it feels like to me,

and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but that Golden Hour just took things to a totally different level, in part because it won album of the year, album of the year, not just country album of the year. Gramey's decided it was the best thing anybody put out that year. Was that a shocker to you? Oh, my God. Yes.

It looked like it was when they announced your name. Yeah, my eye closed. It did a weird, I don't know what happened there. But yeah, what the hell? Like, I mean, that's a, that is a huge statement. And again, it's like, I accept that with, like, so much gratitude, but also, like, it's humbling. It's like, you know, everyone in that category made.

bomb albums that were like, you know, and it's just, it's, it's one opinion. I mean, it's a conglomeration of a lot of people's opinions, but it's like, music is so subjective, it's so relative to the listener that it's like, it's hard to say this thing is better than this thing. It's just different, you know, but to have like something that you put your entire heart into, like, you know, given that by peers and, you know, industry people and or fans or whatever, you're just like, okay, that's, I mean, it's really special, you know, so yeah. Did you, after Golden Hour and the Grammy win for Best album, did you feel your life changing, not necessarily even professionally, but personally, did things feel different to you?

In terms of fame and all the rest of it. It got a lot busier, you know, it was definitely a total life changer. I mean, yeah, it totally blew my mind. But yeah, and then, you know, life changes. Like, you know, you're on a high from that. You're going through a divorce. Like, you know, somewhat shortly after that, it's life is duality. It's highs, it's lows.

It's all the things, you know. Yeah, I've heard you talk about that. Is it hard? I've always wondered this about anybody who writes a song in a certain moment in time. Your fans want to hear the song when you play it in concert, but it's about this other thing that's not there anymore. Is that difficult? It can be, yeah.

It can be hard. Sometimes you just have to go somewhere else Or also just know that it is someone else's story now Like it's something that they're attaching their mental pictures to And also like I'll stand behind any songs saying that It was true in the moment and it obviously made a big enough impact on me to write about it You know at a certain point so it's it's real It's a real emotion you know and again everything has seasons

So I'm like thankful to have little beautiful little chapters of what like little scrapbooks of moments, you know. And how do you feel in this chapter right now of your life, the deeper well chapter? Honestly, I feel really good. I feel really grounded. I feel like, I just feel it's hard to explain. I mean, I'm busy and I'm tired and all that, but I feel like I'm where I need to be, you know. I feel grateful.

Well, it's a beautiful, beautiful album. Thank you. People are going to love it. I hope so. Thank you so much for doing this. It was so fun. Thank you. And we'll go out and smell some of those smells.

Let's go do it. So after our conversation inside Electric Lady Studios, Casey and I hopped up and went for a little stroll around Washington Square Park. It's an area she got to know very well when she was writing the album. She said she drew inspiration from the sights, the sounds, and yes, the smells of New York City. So these are the streets you would walk when you were dreaming up this album. Yeah. It's so nice to have like all this life kind of at your fingertips to be able to like take a break, clear your mind, go get a cup of coffee. absorb every culture imaginable in a 30 second walk.

You know, it's inspiring. And I guess, I don't know if they've closed it, but this was a Goodwill. Oh, yeah. And it was really fun. One day, we were kind of bored and needed a little break from the studio and all the recording. So, like, we decided to walk next door to Goodwill, give ourselves 10 minutes and $10. You had 10 minutes to spend $10 on something that you had to wear the rest of the day.

I love that. Like, had to. a great challenge. So went in, and I think it took me about seven minutes. I spent $5 on this little white cotton dress, and I ended up wearing it in the studio and recording the song Heaven is. It was just a stupid fun, like... Wow, for five bucks. Oh, that's so fun. Yeah. That's also very in New York, right? Hop in to what you can find. Yeah, it's just like, it was just, it was just really fun and stupid. But yeah, it's, what a great, what an inspiring area, you know. You're talking to about this the songwriters that have come through here you know oh yeah oh my god incredible it's it's

it's um it's so just rich with history this this whole this whole area i mean and not just songwriters and storytellers but you know poets yeah um yeah there's that era of like joan baez and bob dillon and what was going on down yeah yeah first it was like beat beat nick era yeah and you know the whole folk movement of the 60s. I bet it was just like such an electric time to be here. Yes. Yeah. That's what's the line in dangle up and blue?

There was music in the cafes at night and revolution in the air. Oh, so good. Isn't that amazing? Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I love that a lot of these places are still here to like cafe wa. Yeah. And I don't know.

It's just so fun. And one of my favorite things to do in town is like whenever we'd come and stay here and report is like, hitting some of the comedy shows at night. Yep. We had some really fun nights where we would. You got the comedy seller right up here. Comedy seller.

There's always some like, some big people kind of roll through there, you know? Sure. Oh yeah. No, that's a really fun. That's a big spot. Could you ever see yourself in New York? I mean, you're a Texas and Nashville girl, but. Right.

Yeah, I get on Zillow and Dream. Yeah. I get on there and act a little bit of a fool. A night, you know, see what I can see. But, uh... I'm glad I'm not alone in that. We all dream. Zillow. I know, right? Like, why is it so

addicting you're just automatically imagining your life and like Munich all that for no reason? You're like, this makes sense. Right. Checking the monthly payment. If I put this down, maybe I can do it. Yeah, it's like, I just sell every single thing I've ever owned, then I can do this, guys. I've lived there for a couple years. Yeah.

No, it's fun. I mean, I'm also really, really inspired by like the Hudson Valley and in that area up there. I see a little New York in your future. You're putting it out there in the universe. I'm not. Not, not down.

But I do love Nashville. And I don't know, for me, it's like the community is irreplaceable. So I have friends that I've had for, you know, going on 15 years now. And I just love them so much. And, you know, you can't, what do they say? You can't make old friends. That's right. I believe that.

So there's that. So this is the park, Washington Square Park you were talking about before. It's in the summer, though. It's such a vibe at this part. Oh, yeah. Music. Yes. rollerblading.

I know. Some illegal activities. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. For sure. It's sort of like, you know, encouraged. You know, this is the place to come if you need to purchase. Right.

Yeah. I know I was really wanting to do a concert here in the park, like under the arch or something. Yeah. But the police, like, because it's, they can't really, like, barricade it off and it's just open to the homeless. Like, they said it's, like, hard. Yeah. Yeah.

I was going to say, I don't know if I've seen a show here. You must not do it. No, I was kind of thinking like a smaller scale live in Central Park vibe. Yeah, you know? And you could like project onto the arch. It could look really beautiful, but I don't know. I know if it'll be possible. NYP tends not to be super flexible.

Yeah, totally. Well, or it was like the stage could go like on top of this fountain, you know, in the round. Yeah. Oh, my God. That'd be amazing in the round. Could be kind of cool, right? What is? There's a pigeon, man.

Really? He's just holding the pigeons. That's him on his shoulder. What is she selling? Crochet bouquets. If there was like a palm reader, we should get one. Oh, it's a brisk. It's brisk.

Oh, look at that. Life is lightning. Oh, yeah. It's a lively park here. It is. That's why we love it. Yeah. It's like quintessential New York.

It's so. I mean, to have this, like, right around the block from where you're working, it's just, like, just pop in here and you're just, like, absorbing all this life. It's great. So you would come in here and just kind of feel New York City. Yes, feel the city. Just see what's going on. Because you can kind of get into a little bit of, like, a tunnel vision when you're in the studio. You know, you're working long hours and you're really, like, you're, like, diving deep into this vision and you're having so much fun.

but sometimes you've got to remind yourself to like, okay, let's like, let's go out here and see what's going on, you know? Yeah, it's inspiring. So you'd pick things up and you'd see somebody or hear something and maybe sprintling into a lyric. Not even intentionally. Well, actually, there was one song that talked about walking past the skaters in Washington Square. That one didn't make it on the record, but maybe it'll come out as a point. As I say, let's keep that bonus track. Yeah, but especially like in the spring and summer, I feel like this park is like so,

alive and I don't know it's just kind of a common ground of like it's just everyone from all walks of life is congregating together and I don't know there's something cool about that you know for sure common denominator for sure now this the smells you described earlier I picked up one of them on the way in yeah but we're still working on pizza and um you know marijuana okay yeah it's a great mix of wholesome and illegal activities here and watching this park. I feel like in the summer, too, those smells kind of out a little bit. Oh, they just, yeah, they just, that is one thing. New York City presents an aroma, an array of aromas sometimes.

It does. But I gotta love it, though. Actually, oh my gosh, we have this really funny footage. We came here just to get a break and there was a guy with like a pet duck here. And it was like, it was like this big old, maybe it's a goose or something. but it totally like did not like me like getting near it and it definitely bit me in the cheek and I was like okay I got bit bit on the cheek bad bird yeah I don't know yeah I don't know what happened there welcome to New York yeah yeah welcome to New York all right I think we did the full lap

think we did do the full lap yeah did we leave I know I know I just love that like anything goes yeah anything goes yeah anything goes here. And people don't even like turn their head. They're like, yeah, it's New York. I think, do and look however you want. Totally. I think that's one thing that's really inspiring to me about New York City is that no matter how shit you feel, you're like, surely I'm not the only person that's feeling this way.

That's right. Like, I can't be the saddest person in New York. And that's also the fact that you walk everywhere, you get to feel your fellow New Yorkers. You see them. Oh, my God. Look in their eyes. it's so much humanity stacked on top of each other. You're not in a car stuck on, you know, 65 or 40.

Right. Yeah. You're out there with people. Totally. I know. It's a good place for a songwriter to be, I feel. Well, you crushed it. Well, thanks.

You crushed it. I'm glad you like it. It was very fun to make. You know, you've got a big, I told you my daughter's 16. You've got a big, you know this, sir. but demo, like in that age, because you are, because you poke authority and you don't like fit a conventional, you know what country's always supposed to be about, right? Cut off gene shorts and all that stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think they like that sort of rebellious side as well. They like that, and then their grandparents can also get down with my music. For sure. It's not so avant-garde that they can't.

Exactly. They can't love it too. Exactly. You're smart. You got all the demos covered. That's funny. Speaking of grandmothers, we didn't talk about how much of an impact your grandmother in your career. Oh my gosh.

Hey, well, she was my original booking agent. Yeah? She is a firecracker. She just turned 86 years old. She was my date to the Grammys. Yeah, she is larger than life personality, love Sparkle. Also is very conservative and doesn't like my. choice of words most times but has been a big figure in my life for sure did she really cry when

you pierced your nose like you said yeah I mean I still I still hear about it like she'll just be like you got something in there you know oh growl yeah sure yeah Nana what does she think about all this having watched you since you were a baby singing into that karaoke machine. I mean, she, like, she had such a big part in making things happen. She's very proud, you know, and, um, I mean, they would, like, she and my grandparent, my grandpa would haul me in the minivan, like to across states to sing, you know, this or that. They would help pay for, um, singing lessons, like, just help my parents out a lot. And, yeah, they made a lot of things possible for us, for sure.

Just be incredibly proud. Oh, my God, totally. I talked to my grandpa, literally before sitting down with you. Oh, did you? Yep. And he was just telling me how much fun my grandma had at the grannies and how much it been to her. She got to come.

Well, you're nice to share it all. Sweet. It's meant to be shared, for sure. Totally agree. My big thanks to Casey for a great conversation. Her latest album, Deeper Well, comes out on March 15th. You can hear that, of course, wherever you get your music. and tickets go on sale soon for her world tour beginning in April, swinging through the United States starting in September.

I thanks to all of you for listening again this week. If you want to hear more of our conversations with our guests every week, be sure to click follow so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune in to Sunday today every weekend on NBC. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast.