Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - John Cena

Episode Date: October 6, 2019

As a 25-time professional wrestling champion and WWE star, John Cena is known for his famous punishing move called the “attitude adjustment.” But he is also an actor, rap musician, best-selling author and granter of more than 600 wishes to children at the Make-A-Wish Foundation, and a role model to kids everywhere. In this week’s “Sunday Sitdown,” Willie Geist talks to Cena about his latest children’s book and how his life’s journey has been based on one motto: Never Give Up.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another edition of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks as always for clicking and listening along. I got a good one for you this week. And I think it shows the range of our podcast, if I may be so bold. Last week, Tony Winter, Ben Platt, a man of the stage, a man of song and dance. This week, something completely different. An icon of professional wrestling. And now a movie star, John Sina, the biggest star in professional wrestling.

I grew up on Hulk Hogan. John Sina is that guy to an entire generation of kids. But a great conversation about his children's book. It's called Elbow grease versus Motozilla, the latest in his bestselling series. I'm joined, as always, by the producer of this fine podcast, Maggie Law. Hello, Maggie. Hi, Willie. So John Sina, and this has been my experience because I've met him a bunch before because he does a lot with the Today Show.

So he's this big muscle-bound menacing dude. Of course. He gives out attitude adjustments. That's the name of his move. Okay. It gives you an attitude, Jess. I can see you're nodding because you know all this already. I was going to say this is definitely a different Sunday sit down for us.

Not your wheelhouse. WWE, not my particular wheelhouse. No. But I know that it is yours. Well, it was. It was. Like in the 80s, I was a Hulkomaniac. And John and I are about the same age.

I'm like a year older. Right. So we both grew up on Hulk Hogan. We had the Hulkomania T-shirt that we wore to school every day, all that kind of stuff. But Sina is, yes, he's that guy in the ring. but out of the ring, he is effusively polite and kind and generous. I know he's on the Today Show all the time, and I feel like everyone says he's just the nicest, like, most humble guy. And a professional, he comes to do a job.

Right. Showed up to our, we met in a little coffee house, I will say, just as a bit of color, no people, no publicist, no manager. Just him. No assistant. I love it. I love it. Just seeing it rolling in hot to a coffee shop. It's perfect.

And that is unusual for these. and he was wearing a three-piece suit. The hair is quaffed perfectly. I mean, it was all working for. I was going to say, you mentioned off the top the outfit that he had. It's just two weeks in a row now that they've shown up. I know, I know. Different clothes than what you're wearing.

I think I will say, I think it's good to let the guest shine in a TV interview. I'm not a believer in like I'm going to have a stylist to pick out a look for me. You just want to want to blend in and then they'll be the star of the show. But in this case, since you're listening, I have a button-down show. shirt and a light fall sweater. Yeah, it was a very coffee shop. Yeah, it was a very coffee shop. And then he comes in hot with a beautifully tailored three-piece suit.

So, yeah, he talks about his movies, of course, that he's evolved now out of, I think the big breakthrough was train wreck. Train rack, right, with Amy Schumer. Yeah, 2015. There's some literally revealing scenes of him. We saw a lot of his backside in that movie. But that was, he talks about that, like what Amy Schumer calls. Like, hey, I think you'd be good in this part.

Right. So he started movies. good. Yeah. And now he's in, he was in Bumblebee, starting at Transformers movie last year. He's in the new Fast and Furious Nine movie that comes out next year. So he is also one of the things we should say, as you listen to the interview, you'll hear the name Chevy.

Yes. Who is a young boy, who is the son of one of our cameramen, Callan. Okay. And he showed up because John Cena's his hero. He has John Cena action figure. So he came along with Dad to work. And Sena's fans are overwhelmingly kids. Yes.

And he talks about that. He's like the positive hero of WW. And he said he leaned into that sort of once he realized that was his audience. Yeah. Like you just got to go with it. And you could just see how good. He walked in that coffee shop and went right to the kid. I love it.

Got down on his knee, shook his hand, listened to his story, took pictures, talked about him in the interview. Yeah. So he knows who his fans are. In fact, he talks about you can hear if you go to one of his matches, the pitch of the fans. It's higher than his opponent usually. Yeah. He gets the high pitch because it's kids. His booze are usually a lower pitch.

And he says he'll come up and say, I hate you. Right. But my son loves you. So we're going to come say hello. So I think he'll be, even if you're not a wrestling fan, there's a lot here. He's a fascinating guy. I agreed. Grew up in a house with five boys in Massachusetts, didn't feel like he fit in, which is sort of the idea behind this book, that there's elbow grease as the truck that doesn't fit in.

And that's him. So I think you don't have to love wrestling to be interested to hear this conversation with John Sina. W.W.E. Icon, movie star, children's book author, the great John Sina, right now on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. John, thanks for doing this, man. Thank you for having me, man. I appreciate it. I feel like, I mean, again, you've always dressed well, but you've outdressed me again, and I bow to your three-piece suit. You're a little more cat, you know, here we are with the Chesterfields and books and coffee. Exactly. I show up looking like I'm going to trade banana futures. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

Just two guys, big guys at a tiny table and some breakfast pastries. I got a lot I want to ask you about, but obviously want to start with the book and the series. Thank you, New York Times bestseller. Thank you. This is the latest edition of Old Greece versus Motozilla. Yeah. First for people and families who aren't familiar with the characters in the book. How did you set out on this project and this journey?

What did you want to say? So it actually all starts with WWE, and we have some fans on the other side of camera, but some young people. The audience in WWE was mostly my audience, specifically. specifically, as mostly young kids. And sometimes I kept hearing some parents say, well, you know, I don't think my child is yet ready to watch WW, which is a, that's a perfectly logical statement. But all of these young kids were drawn to this philosophy of never giving up. And in doing a little more research and digging a little more, the concept of growth

mindset or never giving up is a really important concept to teach young people. if they don't learn that when things get hard just to kind of stick with it and you can make it, they'll literally just begin to give up easy and only stick to things that they're good at. They'll never get out of their comfort zone and really never achieve the growth that they're capable of. So after doing that personal dive, I wanted to take the WWE personality and put it in like this whimsical universe where young readers especially could have fun with a story. It's not hitting you over the head with the message.

It's in a wonderful world of, like, destructive monster trucks. And, you know, I chose a family of monster trucks because I grew up with four brothers. And we kind of each have our distinct personality of, like, one being super intelligent, and one being super crazy, and one being super fast. And then there's elbow grease who is different and whose outstanding quality is perseverance and never giving up. So I kind of try to take this message and put it into a fun atmosphere. And it really has been a tremendous success. People enjoy the book and they get all the underlying themes.

And it's not forced at all. And it's a fun read. And young readers enjoy it. I think it's important, too, as a parent, too, our society and sports and school and everything else has become so hyper-competitive that you've got to be the best or the fastest or the strongest or all those categories of brothers that you talked about. Yeah. And in the case of elbow grease, he's got something else. that's not as obvious to everybody, but it's equally important.

Yeah, absolutely. So like I said, I think it's, you know, earlier and earlier now, we kind of identify strengths in young people. This young person is good at math or baseball specifically. Right. And although we nurture success in those fields by younger, more competitive associations and leagues and clubs, you never want to prevent somebody from trying something that they may fail at or trying something new or being a little bit different.

Like we were talking before we started rolling, perseverance is the quality that I have. I've never really been outstanding at anything except sticking with something. So it's a message I really wanted to send and I think it's important. So you talked about your family. Does that make you because there are five monster trucks in there? You have five boys in your family. Yes. Are you elbow grease?

100%. I am elbow grease. I think the only difference between elbow grease and myself is size because of my five brothers. I am the largest, but I really wanted to create an underdog feeling about elbow grease. I was completely different than all my brothers. I dressed different. I acted different. Like, they kind of all are the same.

And I was the one standout. And although they had their individual traits, they saw. still all shared commonalities like the monster trucks, elbow grease is electric, they're all gas powered, elbow grease is smaller. And like I said, is one quality is gumption. And that was just one thing that at an early age, I just chose to go with something and stick with it. There's also a great message in the book about teamwork. As you say, there's like hyper focus on individual achievement and all that these days. At the end of the day, in this story, without getting too much away. No, so I'm very, very happy to share that. The newest installment,

and Elbow Grease versus Motozilla, so I wanted to begin to tackle the concept of working well with others. And I think anyone out there who is in tune to anything that's going on, both nationally, globally, locally, we're at a giant space of divide. And I think if people were persistent with their values and beliefs and able to work well with others, man, we could have come. accomplish some really, really cool things. So the story of Elbow grease versus Motozilla is the benefit of being able to listen to those around you and work well with others.

And I think persistence and working well with folks are two pillars of success that can be instilled in young readers in a fun environment that they'll carry with them for their entire life. You also, I know, to sneak in. The mechanic is a girl. Absolutely. That sends a whole other message.

Yeah, so like I said, the message. The messaging in the book is as you want to take it. I can sit here and tell you that that's the theme of the book, but you may read the book and be like, I like tank, you know, I like tank, and he crushes other monster trucks. That's all fine, but simple subtleties, like the mechanic being Mel, the mechanic,

and she's this unbelievably gifted mechanic that is crafted together this family of monster trucks and eventually crafts the giant apparatus, which will be competitive against Motozilla. Yes. So, and she, has a larger role to play each and every installment of the series. So I think some people from the outside will know you as John Sina from the WWE and the movies

and everything else, big strong guy, putting the attitude adjustment on people and go, children's book, huh? Yeah, well, you know, I think, I don't think the connection was too far-fetched, especially those people who know me from the WWE. If some of the folks who've seen me and some of the adult comedies that I've done, maybe there's a bit of a disconnect. I have some images flashing through my mind. Go ahead.

Can't unsee that stuff. But everybody who's, I think, familiar with my work in WWE, the next thing that comes up is the work with the Make a Wish Foundation. So they can kind of correlate who I am with trying to connect and inspire young people, which makes the transition to a children's book fairly easy. Was that a conscious thing for you to connect with kids as you talk about? I think you've made more wishes with the Make a Wish Foundation than anyone, more than 500.

but as a performer with the WWE, was that a thing you thought about, like right out of the gate? Like, I'll be the guy who connects with kids? In trying to build a relationship with the audience, you never think about that. Step one is like, hey, do you guys know who I am? Right. And my personality started very, very different. My audience was teen, adult, like a young adult males. And that was our core audience, so that's who I tried to connect with.

It wasn't, it was just me. having good perspective on what was going on. In 2004, five, and six, I began to see not only more people attend our events, but younger people attend our events, and families attend our events, and younger people wearing the John Cena stuff and bringing science. Like, that's what's great about WWE. People wear their superstar with a badge of honor. Like, it's a, it's an allegiance thing, and you can spot them out. So in doing that, I actively stepped forward and say I need to change my personality because of supply and demand. This is my audience.

And it may not make me as cool and edgy as I started out, but it's going to benefit the people who are actually showing up to pay money to see me. So it just became a situation of supply and demand. And because of that, because I was vulnerable enough to kind of drop a very successful act and evolve into another phase of my personality, That's when like the Make a Wish request started to pour in and I could tangibly see the effect of like, wow, this fun sports entertainment performance is having a profound effect on people's lives. And Make a Wish was a vehicle for me to see, you know, the effect of the WWE on people's lives. And then it stretched beyond that.

Every single night I could shake hands and talk with people like Chevy, see you over there. every single night I could talk with those people and connect with those people. And it just ended up being the same audience over and over and over again. And to even reinforce that, those who know me from WWE, when I come out, half the audience is happy to see me and half the audience is not happy to see me. And you can literally tell by the pitch, the pitch of those people cheering for me is a higher pitch. and the pitch of those people despising me is a low adult male pitch. So it's kind of telling you like, hey, you could try to convince these people, but they're going to be a hard sell.

Why not just cater to the people who already enjoy you? And by the way, you enjoy catering to those people anyway. So it was really quite easy. It just took a little bit of bravery on me realizing that I wasn't probably going to be the edgiest or coolest character on TV. Well, to your point, I told you earlier, that I told my 10-year-old son last night that I was going to see you. And for the first time ever, he was impressed by what I do for a living.

So thanks for that. He said, I appreciate it. Pucked his head off the pillow. How'd you get seen up? But it's just, it's being aware of your surroundings. So many parents come up. I've had parents literally being like, listen, I hate you. And I'm the one who's booing you out there, but keep doing what you're doing because my kid loves you.

And like that, instead of just being offended by that, just taking that information in and being like, wow. I could kind of turn this into something and something really special. And I think the correlation with Make-a-Wish is really strong because my ethos not only in WWE but in life is never give up. And those families are going through some pretty difficult circumstances. And if the person they see and they're inspired by on television every week is saying never give up, that's something they can take with them through those difficult times. Thinking about you as a kid now, and based on the book and other places I've heard you talk,

just imagining that household in Massachusetts when you were a kid. Man. Five boys. What's it like in those four walls? It was energetic. It was really awesome because I grew up in a small town of like 1,200 people. So your next door neighbor was acres away, which means we had to use our imagination, which has helped me create vehicles like this or be a WWU superstar because you cannot succeed without imagination.

But it also, I mean, at a very young age, I was taught the lessons of failure. I have lost my share of fights in my day. So I know what it feels like to be knocked down, but I also know what it feels like to get back up. You know, we was a very, very competitive household. And each of our brothers kind of vying for their spot. Something is like dinner time. When they set the food down, there's five of us. And, you know, my folks did just well enough to feed us.

So when the food hit the table, it was a competition to eat. You know, so things as simple as that. It was just a very competitive atmosphere. So it taught me the lessons of failure very easily. I wasn't always the best at everything. My brothers would kick my butt or essentially they would get to the food first or just a myriad of things that would instill that failure is essentially, and you can learn from it.

And so if you're elbow grease in that family, you're a little bit of the outsider in that group. Is that the way it was? Did it feel that way to you as a kid? It was weird. So I'm the second oldest and I kind of was oddly the trend center, but like no one was brave enough to follow them. So in the late 80s, early 90s, like I gravitated towards hip hop music, which became the foundation

of my initial WW persona. And man, I just loved the rebellious nature of the music. I was perfect for me. I was a teenager, and here's this music that is completely rebellious that my parents are like, don't ever listen to that, which is immediately like, I'm going to listen to that. And I embraced all the style and like the pop hip hop style.

So I had like the airbrushed overalls, the hammer pants. Much of my wardrobe was rayon and polka dots. Sure. War my jerseys backwards and all that. And like, that's, I think my brothers appreciated my statement of rebellion, but I was the only one. family to have that fashion sort of fashion sense. So you're kind of like, this is the way we're dressing now, guys.

You look behind you and know. Yeah. Like, yeah, you're with me? No, no. So I really just, if my, if something resonated with my personality, I wasn't afraid to lean into it. And I think that's the one thing that separated me from my brothers. Like I would be going to the gym. I just leaned into that and that culture at a very young age.

Like, this is what I do now. And this is going to be fun. Style is another thing. musical preference is another thing like i just wasn't afraid of what my peer group thought whereas my brothers were a little more reserved and like i got a good uh social circle at school i don't want to rock the boat where i i just didn't care what do they think watching your rise and where you are now so i'm i'm very grateful uh that my family um is who they are uh they just will not allow me to be anything else but me and uh

success in any sort of level of relevance or finance is just a move point. Like, they remember me as the kid who had whooping cough and couldn't stop throwing up when he was like 11 years old. Or, you know, just all the embarrassing stuff that I did. And they just refused to let me lose sight of who I actually am. And I'm so, so grateful for that because the entertainment industry is based on relevance and ego. And if you let it take you over, it will. And you can get consumed with all of your surroundings and actually start believing all this. WWE is sports entertainment.

But I have a great perspective of that. One, because my brother's taught me how to lose a fight the hard way. And two, because the people I keep closest to me do keep me grounded. It's like, hey, man, this is who you are. This is where you're from. We support you 100%. But no one person is above a lot. below any other person and never forget that.

And I'm very, very grateful that that's kind of their mindset and they help me manage that every day. Got have somebody to let the air out of balloon every once in a while. I want it gets a little too big, right? Yes, yes. We were just talking about wrestling. We're about the same age. Yeah.

So this career you found yourself and didn't come from nowhere. I mean, you were into wrestling. No, yes. So growing up as a kid in the 80s, especially in the Northeast, this was when then WWF became larger than life, truly became a national and on its way to becoming a global phenomenon. And Hulkomania hit in the mid-80s. I was a Hulkomania. I think if you were a child of the 80s, that's an icon you looked up to. It's a name that transcends WWE. It's a name that's known throughout the world.

And Hulk Hogan just captivated a generation. He was everything the 80s were, you know, and it was he was one of my heroes as a kid. And, you know, I always had moments of imagining I would win the World Series or throw a touchdown past the Super Bowl. But equally, if not greater, I had moments of imagining that I would win the World Heavyweight Championship

in the middle of Madison Square Garden. Crazy. So, and my brothers all loved it as well. So we would recreate those moments at a very young age. There's an iconic shot of me holding a paper championship that I crafted myself that I had finally won

a championship that I made from my brother. in our, you know, fictional wrestling story league that we came up with. But it was, yeah, I was captivated by it at a young age. You took home the belt that day. That day, I did. That day, I did. That day, I did.

I don't know how long I held it for, but that day I did. So who were your other guys? I mean, Andre, the Giant was out there, with the villains, of course, Iron She, could fly ball cough. I could rattle off names forever. I just think those that leave a lasting impression

are the ones that are important. Now, me being in the industry, man, I like certain people for, different reasons. Andre was kind of the measuring stick of if Andre approved of you, he had, he truly was like the godfather of the industry and the first name that transcended the industry. Gorgeous George is also in that company. I liked, I just liked Hulk Hogan. Like he was, he was my end-all, be-all. And then you hear about situations like WrestleMania 3 where everyone talks about Randy Savage, Ricky Steamboat, and like they stole the show. I'm speaking from a young person's

perspective, I showed up and I watched and my dad paid money for us to see Hulk Hogan slam Andre the Giant. And that's that. And looking back in it now as an older person, I can understand why people like certain contests on the card, but that was indeed the reason I watched. So he's that one name that sticks out. We could talk WWE for all the data you have and all these cameras, but I think he was the one that left the lasting impression. I had the Hulkomania t-shirt, the red with the yellow writing. I mean, I was all in. I told you I was at Hulkomania 1. Yeah. And I got a chance to meet him. And I still, to this day, can see his face as a 10-year-old looking up at him. Yeah. And I'll never forget how big his hand was when he shook it. I think that's what

WWE does so well in the day and age where, you know, going into movies now, there's massive amounts of visual effects. And we create these superheroes that essentially you can't really see. WWE creates personalities that are real, that walk through the airports, that meet people at the arenas, and those moments are like, whoa,

this dude just won the main event at WrestleMania, and he just shook my hand. That's real, and it's really him. WWE does a great job of creating realistic, real-life superheroes. He had just finished, he'd come out of the shower. He was just like, wow. you're a real person? Yeah.

You're a superhero. So you go on to college, you become an All-American football player. Talent, but a little grit too. Much more grit than talent. We were kind of speaking to this off-camera. First of all, not to be taken out of context, I was not, I was an All-American Division 3 football player. Don't talk yourself down now.

All-American's All-American. I do appreciate that, but there is a giant discrepancy between level of play as you go up and up. you go up and up. Yes, it was not Alabama. And I had great perspective on I would play in college, and that would be it. So I didn't have any aspirations of playing in the NFL or the CFL or anything like that. But I found a school who was looking for relatively smaller offensive linemen, and I say that I was a 6'45-pound offensive lineman, but that's very small. But they ran an offense, which is called the Triple Option, which like Navy and Air Force run. And if you watch them on

television, their offensive line is really small and quick. So I found a home and I really enjoy the coaches and I just, I really just worked my tail off. And by my senior year, I was actually good at doing the repeated task of being at a point and hitting somebody in a different colored shirt. So it was four years of practice ended up being okay. So you didn't want to play in the NFL, so you get out of college. It's not that I didn't want to play. I had a great realization that I just would not be able to play. I was, maybe. to be an offensive lineman and if you're not six, seven, three hundred pounds, you don't even have a chance.

That's right. So that's me being realistic with who I am and who I'm not. So with that in mind, you graduate college. What's sort of the plan? What are you thinking? What do you want to do with your life? That was kind of the first time that life was in a gray area. You know, as a young person, you're just imaginative and then as a young adult, you kind of

go through that brief period where you find out essentially who you are and then if you follow the path, it's like, okay. go to college, get a degree, and then enter the workforce. My degree was in kinesiology and movement studies, so basically learning how the human body works and the health and fitness industry. At that time, right around the year 2000, the mecca of fitness was in Venice, California.

I wanted to go, and I remember my dad, in what I still think, maybe a brilliant reverse psychology move was like, yeah, go ahead, you'll never last more than two weeks. and perseverance kicked in and I was like first of all I'm going second of all two weeks I'll be back whenever I want like I knew I was going to last longer yeah but I didn't really uh you know I came from Humble Means as a kid I left for California with a two army duffel bags and 500 bucks and landed with an internship of a company that would assemble gyms so a company that like LA fitness buys all this equipment right and then they bring in a bunch of laborers and then they bring in a bunch of laborership to set the equipment up. That was me. And you were an intern? Yes.

So I was kind of doing it through a connection with college, and it was a low-paying internship, so I could receive college credit and still kind of get enough money to pay my rent. And it was a very, very tough job, and I hung in there for as long as I could, but there was really no way to apply my degree and no room for advancement. So I bounced around and ended up at actual Gold Gym Venice, And I was kind of the mayor of the place. I would work the front desk. I would work the supplement station, selling protein bars and water.

I would sell T-shirts. I would help the maintenance department because of the job I just came from. So essentially, I would clean the bathrooms if needed. But I loved it. I loved it. And at one point, I didn't have enough money to do anything else except live in the back of my 91 Lincoln Continental and use the gym as like a home because I would work all day there. and Gold's was open from 4 a.m. to midnight.

So I would work as many hours as I could to make as much money as I could because I loved the place. It literally was like Grand Central for Health and Fitness. There was always photo shoots going on. There were big names in the health and fitness industry walking through the doors. This was right before Gold's IPOed. So their strategy was a little different. And I would just sleep for a few hours in my car, use the locker room as a shower. And I'm not saying that as like a, I loved it, man.

Yeah. I was happy. Yeah. So I don't know. I just, I don't look back on those days with like, never again. Like, I was super happy doing what I wanted and trying to figure out who I was. And then I realized that, like, this has, this is not a sustainable model for long-term success. Right.

So what's next? I was like, okay, I got to get a real job with some longevity. I took the California Highway Patrol exam and failed because I had no passion. I just was like, man, this is a job. But I wasn't prepared. I didn't invest any time. Failed miserably. And then I was about to join the Marine Corps because the Marines have a

massive recruiting center in a presence in San Diego. Right. And a week before I was going to go, a friend of mine, we had always just talked about Monday Night Raw, and that was right between the conflict of Turner's WCW and WWE's product. And they were like, man, you're always talking about wrestling. You want to try it out? We're training down in Orange County.

I was like, what? You can be a wrestler? At then I didn't know that there was like schools and a path to action. It just wasn't publicized. So immediately I said, yes. Leveraged my already over leveraged credit cards to pay a shady promoter to train in Orange County. And I told myself, hey, I'm going to stick with this dead end job because I'm happy there. But it also has flexible hours enough so I can be a superhero on the weekends.

No aspirations to ever make it like just work during the week. my go out on the lake and the boat is pro wrestling and that that would be my existence for as long as I can keep the balance and it just so happened that very shortly after that I got a very small opportunity and took it so what happens at wrestling school for people who don't know you show up what do they teach you so before they even teach you anything about the entertainment aspect there is a remedial training of like certain ways to do the physical actions it's a It's a general knowledge that every single performer should have. So if I were to say a certain maneuver,

like there's a small list of certain technical abilities that every performer must have. Body slam. Body slam, arm drag, suplex, falling backwards, falling forwards, running around in the ring, just pretty much getting you awareness. It's almost like football as well. You do body stance drills, tackling drills,

footwork drills based on your position to learn your position. Baseball's no different. You do batting practice, but everyone's swing style is different. Baseball is a great example. Golf the same thing. You hit the ball, but everybody has little subtleties that define their swing style. So basically that practice is to get you the basics and you can develop your own style from the basics. So when you essentially graduate to like, now we come up with the personality, it's assumed that you know what you're doing and have ring awareness or office awareness. So if you plan a story with somebody, you're aware when somebody says, I'm going to close line you or I'm going to slam you, etc., etc.

Right. Yeah. So you got to have that basic foundation, so you're speaking the same language before you go forward. Yes. And that language is universal, which is awesome because it gets different people from different styles or different areas to immediately communicate. So you can essentially, if someone knows what they're doing, and this is hopefully known with wrestlers in any promotion anywhere, that basic knowledge

is universal. So you can essentially perform around the world once you have it if you become successful. So I think you rolled out first as the prototype. Do I have that correct? You do. And you were a little more robotic than you are now. Yes, so like I have a say in your first persona? Yeah, kind of.

And it was easy for me to get. Like I was always the first to show up. I would never miss a workout. I was very regimented with my diet. And people literally thought that, you know, thought that I was a robot. So I'm like, okay, that's easy. And The Terminator was one of my favorite movies, a very successful character.

So I was like, yeah, I'll just kind of be The Terminator. And it was, it should have remained a movie. I never, ever should have tried it. I think people were enamored by my physique, but the character was such a failed attempt at like trying to bring the T-1000 into a semi-realistic fictional setting. It was not, it was not well received. So do you worry after that? that like oh I blew it like people are not into my character you feel like I can pivot out of this

I think I was just so new yeah that I was just happy to be wrestling and having matches we would work outdoor barbecues flea markets Indian reservations like this is in front of five to 15 people is that right yeah so I mean I was just happy being out there right right you know so uh it wasn't until I moved I got relocated by the WWE from Los Angeles to Kentucky. That was when the promoter in Kentucky was like, listen, you're dropping that awful personality. We're

going to keep your name, but this is the new you. So, they had one of the top bad guys who fancied himself, his character was the role model, and of course he would act like a role model, but then fight dirty, that makes him a bad guy. I was supposed to be

his protege. So they kept the prototype, but basically had me emulate this cocky, style of this role model guy, so I would attempt to be a role model, but not be. And that was much more me. Like I could at least see someone to mimic and someone to copy, and it was easily absorbed and I could get it. And that really, that's when it really started to click. So at what point do you feel like not only am I a regular, I've made it, WWE, I got the job, but like now I'm rising to the point where like I'm the guy in WWU.

When did you feel that? I've never felt like that. Well, you are. I'll just inform you of that. You have. But when did you feel like, okay, I've made it, I'm here to stay? I never feel like that. Really?

Honestly, never. I guess early on in my career, I saw the WW make some personnel moves that I thought people were quote unquote untouchable and they were just replaced. So I realized that everyone is replaceable on any given night. And I adopted the philosophy as you're only as good as your next one because we can have these great performances and dwell on them, but there is a new consumer tomorrow night who pays their hard-earned money to see a wonderful show. And if you're still lingering on the wonderful performance you had last night or the moments

a month ago that was awesome, you're not doing justice to the person that took time and money out of their pocket to see something they want to be excited about. So I've never, I've never, ever once thought that. I always just look forward to the next one. I don't want to give away any secrets as a fan of wrestling, but I think people watching are interested of like how it works behind the scenes. Yeah. You've got a big match against somebody.

You guys talking before the match? Well, I appreciate the respect, but essentially, WWE has come to grips with what it is. Yeah. And it's fan base clamors for that information. So you can, you can absorb WWE, how, you want to. You can pull back the curtain as much as you want because through the WW network, all of that information is available. So we are sports entertainment. And it's a great

message to send because we don't want young people at home trying to emulate what we do. So saying that this is for entertainment purposes is important because it lets adults be able to be like, hey, this is a show, these are characters, just enjoy it for what it is. But the great thing about WWB is they adopted that philosophy in the mid-90s. And everyone that goes into the arena or everyone that watches at home knows it's sports entertainment. And the most rewarding feeling is when you can craft a narrative that has the live audience on the edge of, there are goosebumps under my coat right now. It's the most rewarding feeling. Performing in front of an audience that knows what you are doing is entertainment. But for that one moment in time,

making them believe and there's no better feeling like it like it is the it is the best it is the most rewarding because you give enough of yourself to let the people young and old be like this is something special and I'm I'm believing what's happening right now right here it's it's it's awesome and it's what keeps me bound to that industry and that company and that the McMahon family and I'll never leave and I'm just I'm a I'm attached to it and the audience knows what it is they do so it's not like it's not like people don't know that process right it is it is scripted it is structured but once again it all depends on the performer people are like mouth open surprised at how improvisational I am

I don't like to structure performance this is the reason why we can talk out every single thing you want to do. You can be like, okay, I'm gonna hit you three times. And on the third time, it's gonna be the real big one. So I wind up and I hit you, and then you duck and double duck, and then I'll catch you in a thing and do whatever. So we can craft this beautiful labyrinth that we think is entertaining.

And then the consumers come in. And if you don't stop and look around at your audience and look who's there, we go out and do our narrative and everybody's like, what? It's like a stand-up telling the first joke of their routine and no one laughing. And then telling the second joke and no one laughing. You cannot stick to the narrative that you planned.

You have to adapt to entertain the audience in front of you. So I just go out there basically with an, I love to know the story. Why are we doing this? Why do people want to see this? Did you steal my girlfriend? Did you step on my foot when it was illegal? Did when I had my back turn? Did you hit me in the back?

Have you always thought that you were better than me? maybe I took your spot. Like, these are things that people can attach themselves to. This person fights dirty and thinks they're good. This person is overconfident. Man, this person is an underdog, and I really wish they could get a chance. Those are things that will keep people at the edge of their seat. And those are things that I invest in.

If you've watched any of my performances, it's not about the efficiency and the perfectionate movement. They call me unorthodox for a reason. But I literally just go out there and look and listen and allow the biggest superstar in the WWE, the audience, to play their role. And I think that's what's kept me relevant throughout the years is I listen to what they say and I react on the noise that they give and pretty much reward them with the performance that they're wanting. When they make noise, they essentially tell you what they want to see.

And all you have to do is listen. and be able to think on your feet and use the remedial knowledge I just talked about to be like, okay, try this now. And then when you do it, listen again. And if it doesn't work, change it up. And in a split second, not only change it, why didn't it work? What are the options now? What can I do?

This is how we move forward. That's another reason why I love it. Man, you have to be laser focused when you go out. And that's why every time, and I'm working myself up into a frenzy right now, But every time I come out of that ramp on WWE, I am amped. And it's nothing more than me getting myself ready mentally to see every single person, to hear the one comment in the 300 section. Does it spread?

How far does it spread? What's the noise like? Is it pensive silence? Like, are they watching? Or is it boredom? If they're bored, why? What have we done? Why aren't we telling the right story?

Why are we telling the right story? Hold on. Press forward. This has to be done now. We missed it. Wait. All of those things go through your heads so fast and then at the end hopefully you tell a story that they understand it. You got to improvise a little bit. But a lot of performers don't do that. Yeah. A lot because it's uncomfortable. Right. You risk failure. And I have failed in that venue so many times and people don't understand. They think that like, wow, you've had this amazing career. Everything's just a home run. No, in the 20 years, I've probably batted around 200. Come on. No, for real.

For real, but I'm brave enough to try. Yeah. And the moments people remember are the wonderful narratives. And I, like, I'll try. I love tackling new stories and trying to tell new stories, and I'm brave enough to lean into that. And I also understand that sometimes you're not, most times you're not the center of the story. It's to, it's to put light on someone else or light on another piece or to help this vehicle move. forward to the next piece. So it's, I just have always had a great perspective, not because I love WWE. I, I confidently love me in a way of like, I look at the guy in the mirror and be like,

you know what, I'm okay with you. But it's not about, um, what can this thing do for me? Right. It's always like, man, I love this. What can I do for this? How can I help leave this place better than when I found it? And that's always been my approach. I love your passion 20 years in and you're still doing it. Dude, I like, like, talk. Man, I, and in the past few years, just because of movie commitments where movies won't, insurance-wise, they just won't let you do both, the WWE has been close to where I've been filming, and I go as a fan, and I make sure to sit in the audience. And when I'm dressed like this, I sit, there's a section of WW production folks where I can just slide in and sit. I love watching

live. It's the, it's the, because I then become a vehicle to make noise. Right. You know, and I listen from a different perspective. So it's, I just, I can't get enough of it. I'll never get tired of. You mentioned the movies, train wreck, Daddy's Home, Bumblebee, Fast and Furious movie coming up. At what point in your career and your success in wrestling did you say? Keep doing this, obviously, and doing it well, but I'm ready for a different lane in my career. Well, once again, I think it's perspective.

I love my message and the character that WWE has allowed me to form. but I also know that that character probably will not take a turn. And that's for the best. When you can give hope to people struggling and essentially clinging on to life, when you can give them hope and buy them time with that hope, there is nothing, there is no financial gain that equals that, there is no exciting new narrative that equals that. I will stay in that lane as long as I can because that provides people with time,

and that is our most precious gift. So I'm so cool with that. But after 20 years of essentially telling the same story and evolving the character, nonetheless, I had to ask myself, why are you still doing this? And it's not because I pride myself on being a stunt man or like I can go out there

and punish my body. It's I love telling stories. I love it. I love to be able to sit with you and tell a story and hopefully the people behind the camera and the people watching at home are entertained, I love the concept of a narrative. So when I tried movies early on in my career,

it was a business decision. My boss said, hey, we're going to make this company and we're going to turn you guys into movie stars. And if you're movie stars, more people will come into the arena to see you. And if more people come in and see you, more places we can go. And because I loved the arena,

I was like, you're damn right, we're doing this. Let's go do movies. and it was just not for me at the time. I was still trying to find myself. And then once I found my groove and also dug deep into why I do what I do, I then became enamored with like, well, maybe I can play a different character.

And that led to the choices that I've been making so far as to not be the dude who saves the day. That's who I am on Monday Night Raw. That's who I am on Friday Night Smackdown. go against that because that's there's a part of me that wants to do that and I'll never be able to do it in that medium so movies offered me a great place to continue to tell stories and and be different show different sides of personality that combined with the fact that I'm 42 and still of really good health like I've taken care of myself and it is a punishing profession I know what I'm signing up for but you You gotta know when to say when, I'm sure, NFL athletes, NHL athletes, amateur wrestling people, people in mixed martial arts, they'll have to go through that same process. This is a contact endeavor.

When do I walk away? And when do I walk away with essentially a sense of mental and physical sanity? And I'm right at that precipice. Like, I feel great. I'm in the best shape of my life. It's not that I couldn't continue, but I think at this point on, me continuing, I run the risk of tipping that balance the wrong way. So you feel like you may walk away from WWE sometimes?

No, I will never walk away from WWE. I was a performer, though. So that's the great thing about WWE. You can perform in any capacity. And as long as I've made a promise in the in-ring aspect of things, as long as I can keep up with the current product I will perform. Now, the opportunities that I've been awarded keep me from being in the ring, I actually think that's good because it makes any time that I can, I'm invited back to

WWE super, super special. And that's the way it should be. If I didn't have these opportunities, I still would be actively taking more time off because my body just can't handle the schedule anymore. It's a lot of performances a year. And I love it so much. I don't want to ever take time off. So I want to perform.

You know, you can essentially take as much time off as you want. But when I turned 40, I really honestly looked in the mirror and said, hey, man, I know you really like this. But instead of 250 performances a year, from here on out, just do it 100 times and do it well. And then it became like, just do it 50 times and do it well. And now it's like, hey, you really have to prepare to get ready to perform and then really recover after a performance. So it's not that I, it's a country song, I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as I ever. ever was. So I still can go.

It just, now the main heavy lifting of the program and the continuation of the narrative is for the new generation. It's for the now generation. And it should be. I've been there 17 years. One of the things I love about your movie choices is those sometimes can feel when somebody comes from a different universe like a stunty cameo,

but you have real parts and you can act a little bit. So let's take train wreck, for example, with Amy Schumer calls you and says, hey, I think you'd be great for this. What did you think about being that kind of a movie? So when someone that funny says I think you'd be funny in a funny movie, I'm floored because I love making people laugh and I don't mind the joke being on me. So then I'm auditioning in a room with Amy and Judd Apatow and all these funny people and kudos to them for not

making me feel nervous or uncomfortable. Very familiar to a WWE environment when you're trying to define yourself, there's a really good group of veterans that will help you and not be like, you'll never make it, kid. They provided the same environment. And when you provide a comfortable environment, people will take chances and people aren't afraid to fail. So basically, that's what happened in the audition. They're like, you know what, there's a basis of something here. We can work with this. And one thing led to another. And what Amy described, the part that Amy described, and the part that you see in the movie, 100% different. Oh, really?

A hundred percent different. The part that was described was strictly large and physical. She had an experience in her life where she was outmast and pretty much worked out to a point of exhaustion in a relationship. And she was like, I kind of want to showcase that. But then it became like, wow, I'm with this dude who really wants to commit because he sees that as the next stage of life but it's essentially confused about who he is because of the profession that he has and it became this really cool funny moment but that's all because of them

and the team around me creating an environment that's comfortable so when I make my choices one I have to like the stuff I read it and want to know that I like it because if I like the story I'll be as passionate as I am when I run down the ramp and two I really try to surround myself with people who are better than me I don't ever want to be the most experienced person there because if I'm mad, it's not going to be good, because I don't have a lot of experience. So every other choice that I've made since the opportunity that I was given in Train Rec

has been, doesn't matter the size of the part, how many lines you have, that's all foolish. It matters who's around you, who's involved in the project, the project itself, how passionate they are about it, and how you can learn from these people. And that's really, really helped me. Stick around to hear more from,

John Sina on the Sunday Sit Down podcast, including what he thinks of the comparisons to Dwayne the Rock Johnson. Welcome back to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Now more of my conversation with John Sina. There are a lot of people who watched your moves, Hollywood moves over the last few years, and thought, oh, I see, he's going down the Dwayne Johnson path. Yeah. From professional wrestling to become this movie star.

Is he a guy whose career you look at and say, I'd like to do something like that in my own way? First and foremost, Dwayne Johnson, like the first of anything is always the toughest. He has made it palatable for someone in sports entertainment to go beyond sports entertainment. Guys like Hulk Hogan made sports entertainment a word and a thing. Dwayne the Rock Johnson has made it okay for you to have aspirations to do something outside of sports entertainment because he's the most successful actor in Hollywood. Like there's that is a non-arguable point and to be the first at something like early on in my career when I was very confrontational of Duane

I didn't understand that I was extremely selfish and I spoke to Duane like a WWE fan I didn't understand his vision and what he was doing his success has allowed me the opportunities that I have because there's no people typecast what we do And I don't hold it against them. Hey, you're really good at doing this. That's probably all you can do. I don't put that past anyone. When somebody's on an extended sitcom for a long period of time,

and it's awesome. It's really tough for them to play a different character because you know them as that character. WWE's a sitcom, a weekly sitcom with no breaks. So when you're on it for 15 years straight and you only play one character, everybody's like, yeah, you're good at that. But to say that I want to emulate the career of Duane Johnson is true in some aspects because

he was brave enough to be the first one to be like, no, we are more. And damn it, I'm going down swinging and I'm going to prove that we are more. And in doing that, he literally is connected to a world of people who he inspires every day and does these massive larger-than-life products and projects. And he's a tremendous success. The sky is the limit for him simply because he was like, yeah the sky's the limit it's not just about winning a WW a championship it's about really showing people what I can do and like just not taking no and never giving up

so in that aspect I absolutely want to emulate the career of Dwayne Johnson but I also know that if if you are a copy of someone that is all that you will be so I just try to we share a lot of personality traits but he is also his own human being and I am mine and I try to showcase my strengths and gifts and that puts me in different positions than his path of action as far as these are parts that I choose these are methods that I use and these are decisions that I make I think that's where we differ but I think we both have the same goal I just I'll be forever grateful to him especially now because of what he he did as a pioneer he has he has made it okay for me to sit here today and talk about this

It's so true, you never want to be the next something, right? And so interestingly enough, I started when Dwayne left, Stone Cold Steve Austin and Dwayne the Rock Johnson were the most popular superstars in the WWE, and they both left. And I had to deal in 2002 to 2005 with, are you the next rock? Or who will be the next rock? And right now, the now generation of WWE is dealing with who will be? be the next John Cena. And my hats off to them, they take the same approach as I did. I'm not going to be the next anybody.

I'm going to be the first me. And my path to success in WWE was very different than Dwayne's, very different than Steve's, very different than Hulks. And a guy like Seth Rawlins or Roman Raines or a lady like Becky Lynch or Charlotte Flair, their paths to success have been different than mine. And that's a really good way because it's such a longstanding program of like, Hulk Hogan just left. the next Hulk.

Right. No one is. Right. No one is the next Dwayne Johnson. You just have to be the first you. Right. Well said.

Thanks, man. That was great. Thank you. I appreciate the time. My thanks to John Sina for a great conversation. His latest children's book, Elbow Greece versus Motozilla,

is available on October the 8th. I thought the, um, Dwayne the Rock Johnson stuff was so interesting because they sort of had beef back in the wrestling days. Got it. I think like real life beef, not just show beef.

Interesting. But you could hear in that interview, he goes out of his way to say, there's no me without him in terms of jumping out of the ring and different career. But then I love to right at the end, you know, you don't want to be the next so-and-so. You're just you. And I was like, wow, I love John Cesar. Honestly, a great way to think about life. You don't want to be the next anybody. You just want to be the first of you. Because then you're always compared to that person. And often you're waiting in line to be that next person. Right. And that moment never comes. So just be you. Good advice from John

Sina. Maggie, thank you very much. And thanks to all of you. As always, for listening. If you want to hear more of the full-length conversations with my guests every week. Be sure to click subscribe so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune in every Sunday to Sunday today on NBC. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sitdown podcast.