Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - Lizzo on Her Rise to Pop Stardom and New Children’s Book

Episode Date: October 4, 2026

Lizzo rose to stardom in 2019 with the hit “Truth Hurts.” It became her first number one song and earned her three Grammy Awards. She got together with Willie Geist at Books of Wonder, New York City’s oldest and largest independently owned children’s bookstore, to discuss her rise to fame, the unique sound she has curated, her love of the flute and her new children’s book Lil Lizzo Meets Sasha B. Flootin'. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks as always for clicking and listening along. Very excited to bring you my new conversation this week with one of the biggest artists on the planet. Her name is Lizzo. She was born Melissa. When she was 14, she was a flute player who was transitioning to become a rapper and also was in girl groups and every genre she could think of, which all kind of blended together to get the sound we all know and love. back when she was 14, she took the stage named Lizzo, a little bit of play on Lissa, Melissa, and now here we are. You know the songs, truth hurts, good as hell, about damn time, juice. There's a whole long list of them. She's won four Grammy Awards. She's hosted an Emmy-winning reality show. She was in Mandalorian. I mean, she's now doing acting and all these things. She's incredible. And now her latest project is a children's book. For the first time, she is a published author. The book is titled, Lil Lizzo meets Sasha B. Fluton. I'll let her explain it, but Little Lizzo is a girl who feels maybe a little bit like an outcast because she doesn't know where she

fits in as a young girl, a little bit of autobiography there, and then she discovers the flute, Miss Sasha B. Fluton gives her an identity, gives her a superpower, and she was off to the races. So it's a great conversation. We get into a little bit of what's been going on lately, legally, in 2023, a pair of lawsuits were filed against her and her production company, alleging a long list of things. The second lawsuit was just dismissed altogether just a few weeks ago, and parts of the first one have been dismissed. They've kind of taken her out of it.

So a lot of the lawsuits, at least the charges against her, have fallen apart, but it's been difficult, and we get into that as well. So a lot to talk about. You should know we are at a famous bookstore sitting right there in New York City at Children's Books, who are called Books of Wills. wonder. It's incredible. It's beautiful. It's New York's oldest and largest independent children's bookstore. And she is a reader. You'll hear a little bit later in the interview, we kind of walk through the stacks, and she's pulling books and telling me why they were important to her. Very

cool. So sit back, relax. Enjoy a great conversation right now with Lizzo on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. It's so great to see you, Lizzo. Hey. Especially here. I mean, people usually talk to you in a studio or on a stage somewhere about your music. But today is different. It's like an album release day, but it's book release day. How does it feel? I learned the term. It's Happy Pub Day.

Pub Day. I said, ooh, I feel, I mean, I'm a published author. Like, it's a crate, I'm letting it sink in because it hasn't sunk in yet. But I am in awe. I feel like a kid in a candy store. Like, I can't focus on anything because being in this bookstore is like a dream. First off, I haven't been in a book, a children's bookstore in a long time. You know, I'm grown.

I don't got no kids. But being here is so nostalgic. That Harry Potter cover, when I say I was addicted to that series. Like, I waited in line for the last book to come out. Like, that is crazy. The little tip of his nose just, like, brings memories back to me. And where the wild things are? The where the wild things are artwork everywhere.

I was just about to say is incredible. Look at the little monster right there. And there's a little of that in your book, that spirit of adventure kind of. Yes. There's a moment in Little Lizzo meets Sasha B. Fluton where the bandroom that Lilzzo is in is in dematerializes and she ends up in the jungle.

And I kind of felt the inspiration from where the wild things are where the boy, he's like, and now I'm on a boat. Like he was in his bedroom, missing out on dinner, and now he's on a boat going far, far, far, away. So I was like, it's a children's book. Anything can happen. Because I was like, how do we get

them to the jungle? Oh, I know. You don't. They just end up there. That's imagination. Imagination. That's the beauty of these kind of books. So how did you, just going back to the original idea, you're sitting down thinking about music and business and all the things you do, how did you decide I want to write a children's book? I think it was more so Sasha flute, who is a real person. She needed an origin. story. And I had started an Instagram page for her, and I just did it for fun because I liked, you know, muppeting her. And she grew 300,000 followers and, like, real fans. And they're called the flute gang. And I was like, okay, flute gang. And I was like, what do we do with all this

energy? What do we do with all this love? And I wanted to tell her origin story. And I also wanted to tell my origin story of how I learned the flute and fell in love with it. So, So, you know, it was kind of like a no-brainer. She wouldn't do like a salacious memoir. Maybe she will one day. But I thought a children's book would be the best kind of way to do that. And it has a beautiful rhyming cadence to it. Is there any hint of songwriting in writing a children's book?

Do you feel that muscle? That was a choice because I do, I have read children's books that have no rhyme at all, you know, and they just say things. It's like, and then he was there. And then he opened a door. And oh my goodness, that was incredible. And I'm like, where are we going with this? But, you know, I think you have to make a choice as an author, like what kind of book you want to create.

And I think I am a rapper, so I wanted it to feel like rap. Like, I wanted, like, if you played a beat, you could read Sasha B. Fluton and Lil Lizzo to a beat. And it would be a song. I know that kids, we love iambic pentameter. So that was like really important to me as I was writing the story. I knew what the story was going to be, but I'm like, how do I bring it to life? And I'm a rapper, so. I love that you were able to rhyme jam with ham and not the food ham, a different kind.

Yes, they went ham. Thank you for. Very nice. Thank you for seeing me. Very nice. I do. I see you. One of the more ambitious rhymes was rhyming with again. Did you get that one?

Yes. Yes. Wait, where is it? Yeah, you went kind of British pronunciation with a gain? I did. That works, though. I was like, yeah, it'll work. It'll work. Oh, yeah, exclaimed in a gain.

Works for me. Yeah, I am the M&M of children's book authors. I rhymed purple, honey. It's the message of the book, too. We were talking about this a little bit. We sat down, which is something you experienced when you were in fifth grade or 10 years old, was finding an instrument which led to finding a group of people and finding your passion. Is that the bigger message here?

Absolutely. It's for kids who feel like they don't fit in, kids who feel lonely, but also on the other end of that spectrum, kids who have so much creativity and don't know what to do with it, how do you channel all of this creativity and imagination and energy into something that's tangible and fun? And I think that music is one of those things that every child should do, whether you're listening to it, performing,

it, learning it, you should be, music should be a part of every child's life. One of the things you've done is to make the flute cool. It's like, oh, Lizzo plays the flute. Okay, let me go play the flute. I'm sure children choosing the flute in the last six or seven years has gone through the roof because of you. But is that also part of it, which is the thing you do, which maybe in your school feels a little outsider, actually is the thing that makes you cool in the long run? That was a really wild lesson to learn because I promise hand on my own book that I thought I was the biggest

nerd up until like five years ago because I played the flute. The flute was something that it wasn't until I brought the flute out from behind me and played it at the BET Awards in front and Rihanna stood up until then I was like, oh, I'm the biggest dork, I'm never telling anyone I played a flute.

And now I'm kind of defined by the flute. But for years I was like, I know it's nerdy and I don't care. I'm proud to be a nerd. And I think that's the most important part. It's not like, oh, this makes me cool, so that's why I'm doing it. I'm like, I'm doing it whether you think I'm nerdy, cool, or not. It's like being proud of what you do and being proud of what you love. I love what you said. The thing that makes me different actually turns out to be

my superpower, which I think is another message of the book. Absolutely. I tell people that all the time, the thing that you get teased about in middle school is probably the thing that's going to make you very successful in life. I got teased for reading a lot and playing the flute. Hello? If this is not a testimony, I don't know what it is. Here we are. You win in the end. But isn't it hard, and I'm sure it was for you when you were a teenager, to see that in the long run, because you're just in it and you don't maybe feel like one of the cool kids. You don't get how this passion is going to take you there. And I think maybe that's what you're planting the seed, like just hang in there with it. It's going to

take you places. Absolutely. Hang in there, but high school felt like it was never going to end. Like, I know people who are like, oh, I miss high school. I don't. I was like, when will this torture chamber release me? But the friendship that Sasha and Lil Lizzo discover with each other is something that I wanted to show kids that they could have.

Yes, school feels like it's never going to end. And yes, it feels like every little thing that happens is the worst thing that could ever happen to you. And it's so dramatic. But at least you have your friends. And if I didn't have flute and my band, I wouldn't have met some of my best friends that I have to this day. Like, you know, my best friend I've known since fourth grade. And we played flute together all the way to high school. So you can find your people, find your tribe who can hold you down and love you for who you are. Just like Sasha and Lil Lizzo. She's doing it in this book. Is it true? You have a great illustrator of this book, but that you sent over some of your own sketches just to give an idea of what you thought she might look like. I did. Mark Pet is incredible.

I gave a lot of notes. I cared a lot about the illustration, but also, like, I wanted Lil Lizzo to be easy to draw, and I wanted her to be iconic. And I wanted her to feel classic and timeless, but also fresh enough to be in a cartoon today. And so I did. I was like, she got to have my Afro puffs. Like, if you see a picture of me from before to age of 15, before I got my first weave, I have Afro puffs. And also, Puka was really important.

My favorite picture of her of all times, she has a pink bow. But this is my dog who passed away, and I'm honoring her in my book. So, yeah, I'm super hands-on about everything that I do, and I couldn't let this be an afterthought. Yeah, the illustrations are beautiful. He's really good.

One of the things beyond the story that moved me to was the dedication to your father, who passed away back in 2009, because it turns out he's the one who kind of put the flute in your hand. Is that right? When I started playing the flute, I was so nervous that it would not be accepted by my family, because my family is so cool, you know, and I took the nerdy route. And my dad actually overly embraced my flute playing, and he actually saw bigger dreams for me. than I saw for myself. I remember I learned, I memorized this, and I actually performed this at the Blue Note. It's called The Carnival of Venice, and I play it all the time because I had to memorize it for my auditions into eighth grade. He made me play that song for all his friends. Like every time his friends were over, he'd be like, Melissa, come down here and play that Carnival of Ventus. And I'll be like, okay, Dad, it's Venice, but, and I would play it, and he'd be like, look how talented

she is. Like, she's going to play in big stadiums one day. And, you know, so I dedicated this him because I wanted him to know that he was right. That's so beautiful. And also that he would support you and validate the thing that you were passionate about. So I can see she loves this. You know how rare that is to get that from a parent, to get that kind of love and support for just something you're nerding out on? Like he bought my flute. He bought my picolos. Like he made sure I begged to go to band camp. I was like, please, mom and dad can I go to band camp? And they paid for band camp. It was my first solo flight. And they drove me to the airport

and they were like, all right. And so just to get that from my parents is like priceless. And I truly honor that. My mommy, too. She's amazing. There's such a lesson in that for parents. If you see your kid is passionate about something, feed that. Hello. Hello, because you never know. You better, you never know your kid could be

your kid could be Lizzo. I don't care if they make animal balloons. You better finance that animal balloon Passion. Animal Balloon Camp, whatever they want to do. The Animal Balloon Camp. Oh, come on. Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast.

Stick around to hear more from Lizzo right after the break. Welcome back now more of my conversation with Lizzo. So we were talking about when you moved from Detroit to Houston. You get the flute in your hand when you're 10 years old. But you kind of have this dual life where you love hip hop and R&B, but also the flute. Yes. How did that play out as you started to develop your musical style? How did you do both or did you keep them separate?

It was always, well, hmm. So my introduction to flute actually was infused with hip hop and R&B because in the fifth grade, I had an incredible band director, teacher, Mr. Browden, and he would kind of like, he loved R&B. And so he would write down all the big songs of the day and he would like transcribe it and put it into sheet music for us. So like instead of having like traditional hot cross buns or whatever, we would have this handwritten sheet music that he was Xerox

and put on our music stanza. We're like, all right, let's get down. And we would play it and we had dance mood, choreography, raps. Like we had one song that was like, five minutes of funk, it ain't no junk, young blood or make you jump. Bust it on down, make you stump, break it on down to the pumps in the bump and then we would tick up and we'd be like Tissy Rose to the left to the left. Oh my God.

And our concerts went so crazy. Like the parents were in the stands like screaming, hollering. So we were putting on shows. Like, so I always loved R&B and rap and the flute. I always kind of made them the same thing. I fell in love with classical music when I left his band, obviously. But even when I was in high school, I would be writing all of the best. big rap songs that came out for our marching band so that we could play it at the football games

and actually be a cool band because we were always playing the nerdy stuff. No shade to my band director, I love him too, Mr. Gonzalez. I feel like I'm talking so much. That's the point of the that's what we're doing here. Oh, this is my favorite thing to talk about. Oh, my God. No, but that's like you're talking to about people again who like fed your passion and also I don't think people think the flute and like the hip hop songs of the era like it's just such a smart way in and i feel like we saw it later in your career didn't we the manifestation of that which is these two things your music r and b and the flute can live together and be like really spectacular and special so the book gets it all that um so when do you feel like lizzo you developed your the style that we know today

of your music when did you feel like that really came in to view for you where you said, okay, this is who I am now. This is how I want to put myself out into the world. I've had so many different lives. Like, I've had so many different lives. Oh my God, I'm so country. Not lights. Lord of forgiveness. We have editors. Yeah. We're good. I've had so many different lives. Like, I feel like Forrest Gump where, you know, I'm like,

wait, did I invent the smiley face? Because it was like flute, wanting to be in like in the ensemble and study in the Paris Conservatory. And then it was like rap crew. And then it was like rock band, like real rock. Like we were rocking out like progressive rock like Mars Volta. And then it was like electro pop. And then so I was trying to find my sound and find my style.

And it was so wide that I was like, what is my genre? Like what is my voice? And that ties back to this. harkens back to this book because finding your voice, finding my voice was like one of the most important things I could have done as an artist. And I moved to a super weird city, Minneapolis. And I learned that being weird is okay. And I found a way to marry all of my styles into one.

And I decided to make that feel good music. I was like, you know what? I want to make music that feels good. It's not rap. It's not R&B. It's not classical. It's not gospel. It just feels good. You know, and I always say I'm the genre, you know. The genre is me. So my voice ties everything together. And I think once I had decided to focus on making music that feels good, everything else fell into place.

And you definitely did that. It's such a great explanation of it because I don't really know how to classify your music, but maybe that doesn't matter. Right. If it feels good, it just is what it is. Were there steps along that process, because it did take you some years like it does everybody, to kind of, to break out and have your big moment. Were there any frustrations along the way where you're like, I have a good education, maybe I should just go get like a typical job, or were you always going to be in music as a profession? I was probably always going to be in music because even like my education was in music performance and flute. So it's not like I had like a communications degree or something. Went to a grade school at Houston. Yeah. You of age, go cooogs. I was probably either going to be a music teacher that like did gigs.

Yeah. Like Mr. Holland's opus. That's like my favorite movie of all time. And I'm like, I'll be Mr. Holland, you know. Or at the, my biggest frustration came when I had already had like a big fan base. So it was around 2016 and I had already grossed a million dollars on tour independent. And I was really happy with where I was. but I had written this song called Truth Hurts, and I thought it was the biggest song in the world.

And I shot the video, and the video was, like, amazing. And I was like, this is about to be the biggest thing ever. Hold on. Our lives are about to change. And it came out, bloop. And then, like, nothing happened. It didn't even make a ripple. And I was like, am I tripping?

Because this song is huge. And then three years later, it was the number one song. So I'm like, okay, maybe I was right. It just took a while. So what do you think is the difference? Because 2019 is the year when, because I love you, comes out and your life changes. And Truth Hertz became the number one song in the world. What was the difference from 2016 to 2019, do you think?

Why did people finally catch on to it? Well, I don't know if there was much of a difference, but I just think that everything is in its right. timing. I think that the song was the same song, you know, but where I was in my life probably supported that type of success and whatever journey I needed to go on. Because right after releasing Truth Hurd, I had fully dedicated myself to being a touring artist. I was like, I'm happy with where I am. I'm actually very blessed. I don't want any more than this. I don't need any accolades. I don't need the Grammys or the number ones. I like being this. And once I was satisfied with that, really truly satisfied, then everything else came.

Interesting. And I think I needed to feel that way. So you do get the three Grammys. You are the darling of the music world. Everybody's going, she's so good. These songs do feel so good. And you get your next album. We win record of the year. all this stuff. How did you handle that in your life? Because, like you said, you'd had success, but not like this where the whole world knew who you were. How did you deal with that? I think that I, because I had made peace with where I was as an artist in 2017, that 2019 and 2023 were just filled with gratitude. Like, I'm very grateful. I'm very grateful. that I had put to rest that desire back in 2017 to have something outside of what I already have

because that never goes away. You can have three Grammys, you can have a record of the year, you can have a number one song and be like, insatiable. It's not enough, it's not enough, it's not enough. And you'll burn yourself out and you will look up and be like, where did the time go? And I think that because I had developed that gratitude for what I had back then, now this is all cherry on top. Everything is cherry on top and sprinkles. I'm like, oh my gosh, really? Like, I walk into rooms so unassuming about what's going to happen next. I have no expectations.

I'm just here for the vibes. Like, even when I won record of the year, I was with Adele. I was sitting there and we were just drinking and we were cracking up because I was like, I know I was going to win. crack it up about it. I said, wait, who? So, I mean, but that's the best way to go through life. Yes. If you go through life, taking it too serious with all these, and feeling like everyone owes you everything, with all these expectations, you're going to get let down, you're going to get disappointed, you're going to get hurt. Stick around for more of my conversation with Lizzo right after a quick break. Welcome back now to the rest of my conversation with Lizzo.

How did you handle the fame part of it, though? When now, now, you can't walk into that delicious coffee shop without everybody, go, oh, my God, that's Lizzo and taking out cameras and all that. How did you adjust to that side of it? That's a good question. I think it takes a long time to adjust to fame for some people. I think everybody. I think even if some people seem like they've got it all together, they do famous, right? I think it took them some time to learn because it's a, fame, I always say, is something that happens to you. You're the same person. I'm the same me, but fame is happening around me.

And so everything externally changed. I was like, okay, I'm just talking to somebody. And it went from being like, hey, what's up to? And I'm like, hey, what's different? Why did that change, you know? And so you have to adjust to people treating you differently for no reason. You have to adjust to people treating you better than others for no reason. And I actually hate that.

I resent it. So I have my own battles to climb. I'm an equalizer. So my whole thing is about like, how do I equalize this situation? Because I want to feel like me in every room that I walk in. And me is not, oh, the queen of she-a-lis.

I'm not that girl. So I'm like, how do I make this room comfortable for me? So everyone sees me for who I am and treats me just as me. I've had a very famous person once say to me, when you reach that level of fame, the media, people on social media, create a character. And you don't recognize that character

because you know who you are. And it's not that character. I'll tell you after it. But did it feel that way to you? Like, who were they talking about? You know what's so funny? You know what's so funny. And we don't have to get into

too much of the details. But it doesn't, you don't really realize it until it's negative. Right. When it was positive, I was like, oh, I'm glad you guys like it, you know? There would be like, Lizzo, save us. And they would put me on these candles with

like doing this. And I'm like, okay, I guess. And then when it's negative, I'm like, oh, but that's not even me. And then you look at, you look at the positive and you're like, that wasn't me either. Like, I wasn't your savior. Like, I wasn't the saint. The, you know, I'm not the superhero. And I even portrayed myself as a superhero on a music video, but I just wanted to wear the suit. there's a metaphor there. So yes. But I think that is what happens when you become a public figure. You belong to the public. You're a public servant of sorts like the politicians too. And you have to play your role. And your role is allowing them to take you and turn you into a brand. You know, I am objectified. And it's what you sign up for. You know what I mean? Like you think Brad Pitt, you know, we don't know if he's at home sitting on the toilet, read the newspaper. You know what I mean? We think of Brad Pitt, you know, the movie star. And that's a brand. And that's an idea. You think of flashing lights and sunglasses. So I think for me, I had to make peace with the fact that there's a version of Lizzo that exists now that the world controls. The world controls the narrative. And I don't. But what I can control is who I really am. And that brings me peace. because I'm not in the world all the time.

Most of the time, I'm at home, in my backyard, eating a salad. That sounds pretty nice. Yes. Isn't your instinct, though, to fight back? I guess mine would be to fight back a little bit, especially all the legal stuff you've gone through lately, one of which was just completely dismissed, which has to feel like vindication to you, obviously.

Yes. But aren't you sitting there going, wait, none of this is true, which I know you believe, and you want people to hear, If people hear bits and pieces and they go, oh, did you hear the thing Lizzo did? And they don't really double click on it or investigate what actually happened. Do you feel like you want to fight back against that stuff or you just say, I can't. It's out there.

You know, I'm not a fighter. I'm a lover. And I think instead of more headlines about me fighting, how about a headline about a children's book? Hey, do you see that thing Lizzo did? She dropped a children's book and it was awesome. I think that is the business that I'm in now because I do. realize it's a headline game. I'm like, okay, how many headlines can I have out there about the things that I'm doing that I'm proud of and that I actually did? Did you learn anything from that

process now that it's largely behind you over those three years or so? What do you take away from it? The reason why I am taking my time to think is because I could write a book about all the lessons that I've learned. I could write another book. I'm sure. Because time is. I'm the greatest teacher and I have been getting my PhD in life and the person that I am today is like my favorite version of myself and I'm like oh wow I get better like I was already tea three years ago I'm about to be te er Earl gray green tea like Roybus so I think that My biggest takeaway is that everything that happens to you, good or bad, is an opportunity for growth. It's an opportunity for self-reflection and to learn about yourself and to even if you don't like parts of yourself, deal with it and work on it.

Okay, you don't like that part of yourself work on that, you know? And then the person you become at the end of that is like someone you couldn't even imagine and you fall in love with them. That's very well said. Well, today is a great day. The headlines are about this book. Congratulations. You just had an album come out. You're always doing something new and exciting. What else is out there for you? I think people are fascinated by like your creative brain. Do you have things you still want to do? You've acted. You've done everything. I have. I've done it out. I have so much that I want to do that I'm like, it's normal to me to want to do all of this stuff because I'm like, it's in my wheelhouse and it makes sense. I think I want to focus right now on Lilzzo and Sasha B. Fluton and Baby Pooker because I think that this is just the beginning. I think that in terms of like helping young people and kids with education, specifically music education, this book is a step in the right direction for me. It's a passion of mine, you know. I care about the young minds of this country and I want them to be in love with reading. I want them to have a passion that they love that's outside

of their phones, that's outside of a tablet. And I feel like there's a war on imagination right now. And imagination is the greatest invention that humans have ever made. That is going to be music to the ears of parents all over the place. I'm telling you, it was the father of a couple teenagers. Get off your phone. Go play music. Go be with your friends. Find your people. It's a beautiful book. The phone is cool. We love. We love it. of the phone. There's a QR code that's connected to your phone at the back of this book where you can listen to music. A new flute song, I believe. But books are cool too. Very cool. Congratulations. It's a beautiful book, important story for kids and for parents. Everybody's going to run out and grab it.

Thanks, Lizzo. Thank you. Cheers. Thanks so much. Cheers. After our conversation, we hopped up out of our chairs and kind of walked around the bookstore. It was so much fun. She is a reader, to put it mildly, kind of walked down memory lane as she pulled from the shelves some of her favorite children's books inside Books of Wonder in New York City. The Hobbit, shut up. See, we could be in here all day. No, it's a problem. Right?

I actually have a problem. Zoran has a book, Zora Mom Donnie? I didn't know that either. Good for him. You were a kid in a candy store, and I think we have a few of your favorites as we walk past. My gosh. These guys, how did you find? Okay, okay.

Remember those? No, this? There's a Christmas one. that would make chills go down my spine. I don't know what it is about finding something. Oh! I spy rabbit, 11 bears and all, a dog on a block, and a seal on a ball. The rhyming.

One red bottle, one rubber band, a wooden craft stick, and the letters in hand. Hold on. Not blue, though, but pretty good. Right. Hand H. Can you find that A? Where A at? There's A somewhere.

That's not an A. Wait, in Where's D? We need A. It was in the crack. Oh. Okay. But see, this, for a young brain, just finding things.

Yes. You're... And again, these take time and focus. Yeah. A little bit of imagination. I feel like this would bore the hell out of a kid today. I know. I do too.

That's what I was thinking. Look at that. Gin Alpha? Finding something in this? Can't. Don't have the patience. Straight past it. Girl.

Chat GPT. Exactly. They're like, find the lion and eight other cats. That's right. They take a picture with their phone and then ask chat to find it. But I used to look at this for hours. I have chills. Oh, my God.

Isn't amazing how quick they come back to? Like when you haven't seen them for all these years, they go, oh my gosh. Or it takes you right back to your childhood. Scholastic, like the goats. I remember the Scholastic Book Fair. The Book Fair. Please give me, buddy. I would beg my parents.

Now, this right here. Oh, my God. this cover. I don't know. There was something about this that was like technologically advanced. Yes, right. Like this broke the brains of so many kids in the 90s because we were like, how is it shiny? Like we were gagged. Like, baby, you couldn't tell us nothing about rainbow fish, honey. I might be rainbow fish for Halloween. Look how stunning this is. I mean, wow. But see, some of these are like the art leads the narrative. That's right. Because you can tell Marcus Fisher was just like, You know what?

What up there was a fish that was a rainbow? I just want to make a rainbow fish. And we'll go from there. Mm-hmm. Because, like, what are we talking about? Right to the illustrations. Rainbow fish couldn't sleep. Because I'm like, what was it about?

His eyes wouldn't close. He tossed and turned in his watery bed of plants. I can't get to sleep, moaned little rainbow fish. What's the trouble, darling? I asked Mommy. It's so dark. Don't be afraid, said Mommy. I'll send for lanternfish.

He'll shine his light for you to fall asleep. Could you stay with me for a while, Mommy? I'll never leave your side, darling. Promise, cross my rainbow heart. But suppose the tide comes and takes me away. Then I'll follow you faster than a swordfish can swim and bring you safely home again. And suppose I lose my way in an octopus is cloud of ink. Oh, this is stunning.

Then I'll search for you, blow away the black cloud, and take you home. This doesn't rhyme. No, no. And suppose a monster fish comes to gobble me up. Uh-oh. Then the monster fish will have to fall. Face me first. Look at her. She said, our bars noplex. And I'll give him such a fright that he'll swim away and never come back. I know that's right, Mama. And suppose I get caught in the arms of a poisonous jellyfish. What's Mama going to do? Uh-oh. Is it stuck? It's not. It's not. You know what? I don't want to do the grandma thing and lick my finger. Then I'll nurse you until you're well, and the jellyfish will get a nasty surprise. Tie him up. Wow. It's a little violent.

And suppose I have a bad dream tonight, then I'll take you on my fins and hold you very tight. Good night, darling. Good night, Mommy, murmured little rainbow fish, and then he happily fell asleep. Are you kidding? Wow. So basically, Nemo owes them. That's right. Realties.

Find him Nemo? Pay your coin, honey. Because that was just the plot to find a Nemo, except Nemo couldn't sleep. Ahead of its time right there. Ahead of its time. Sometimes, you know what I've noticed, and I'm just going to say. I don't have children. I don't have kids, so maybe I can't attest to this.

But I notice a lot of children's books are just like, can you just go to sleep? Oh, yeah. And then there's a book that says, B.S. There's a whole book that just cuts to the chains. Isn't that the one that Samuel Jackson narrated? Yes, yes. A lot of these books are like, can you just?

Please, settle down. And I'm reading, look at the fence. That's a classic. Go to sleep. Let's see what else we got over here. Oh, is there more? Don't play with me. Yeah, we got a couple more for you.

Let's see. Oh, my. Gosh. Come on. This all time. Okay. I did see this and I screamed. This is crazy. This is crazy. Okay. So, Shell Silverstein. We talked about this over there. Sometimes the art leads the story. This is when the story and the art are hand in hand. Like, Shell Silverstein, what a wild, wild imagination. And what a deep awe for Ursula. Oh, see, look at this.

If you're a dreamer, come in. If you're a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, a hoper, er, a prayer, er, a magic bean buyer. If you're a pretender, come sit by my fire for we have some flax, golden tails to spin. Come in, come in. He's like a philosopher. You know what I mean? He's more than a children's author. I remember these so well, just these one pages.

Oh, my God. Like, okay, I know. But this is what I mean about Lilzzo being easy to draw. his style is super simple and like comic bookie and almost like one line like with a pen but it's so special like sometimes like this is not saying he makes bad art but bring back bad art simple art sometimes things are too perfect simple art because this is not bad no this is insane like the detail on that shoe yeah again i remember every one of these oh his beard wait We have to get to the where the sidewalk-ins poem.

And they don't grab, the art doesn't grab you as a kid, so it is the story, right? The art is sort of around it. I feel like it was to me almost a little scary. I was like, whoa, this is like, I felt like I was deep when I was reading this. I was in my deep bag. Oh, here it is. Where the sidewalk-ins. Oh, my God.

Oh, my God. My fingers are so dry. I got you. I'm a grandma. Okay. Oh, there is a place where the sidewalk ends, and before the street begins, and there the grass grows soft and white, and there the sunburns crimson bright, and there the moonbirds rest from his flight to cool in the peppermint wind.

Let us leave this place where the smoke blows black and the dark street winds and bends. Past the pits where the asphalt flowers grow, we shall walk with a walk. that is measured and slow, and watch where the chalk white arrows go to the place where the sidewalk ends. Yes, we'll walk with a walk that is measured and slow, and we'll go where the chalk white arrows go for the children they mark and the children they know the place where the sidewalk ends. That is just like, yeah, goosebumps. Like, this is, I don't even know, Like, he, what he did was he gave children like an opportunity to be deep and a little dark. Yeah.

Without being like macabre. Right. Because there are some, you know, like the classic poets and it might not be suitable for children. Right. But this was like deep, dark poetry for children. Yeah. More sophisticated. Moody.

This is why I'm moody today. This is why I'm a moody artist because of Shell Silverstein. Wow. That is truly an iconic book. ending with a bang. Wow. How about that one? Where the Red Fern grows.

Wow. Now we're moving into a little bit of like young adult, right? Yeah, it gets a little intense. It does, right? I accidentally recommended this book to a young boy, and he cried and was like, why would you tell me to read this? And I forgot because I read this. book in the fourth grade. Oh, wow. And I remember my literature teacher, I loved him so much that I

asked him to autograph this book. I was in the fourth grade. You're teacher? Yeah, I was like, can you please sign my book at the end of the year? But it was like, this book was actually my introduction to like falling in love with what I considered literature. I was like, oh, this is literature, darling. Like, this isn't a kiddie book. And I remember being like, oh, I'm reading a grown-up book. But it was so, I mean... You're an advanced reader. Fourth grade for this book is... Yeah. I was reading at like a college level by fifth grade.

I believe that. From the tests. And I was like, I don't know, I just like to read. Right. But nerd. Okay. Wow. We've established nerd, as you said.

Yeah. I mean, this book is sad. It's beautiful. But it's beautiful. It's beautifully written. If you're... If you have dogs, don't read it. No.

If you have dogs, don't read. Taking me back. I think we have one more before they're going to open the shop that, I know this is special to you, this series, right? This series? Oh, my God, I told you. Shatterglass. Okay, so, okay. I don't know Shatterglass.

It's not particularly Shatterglass, but it's, Tumora Pierce, she has a series, and it's like a young adult fantasy. and it was about these like four young people who like have magical powers. Yeah. And the one I read was with Breyer. Actually, I consumed all of them. I don't think I read this one though. I'm tripping. But you like the author. But I love. Yeah. Yeah. The, oh, this is the circle opened. So this is after the original series. But I love her as an author. And this was my introduction to fantasy. And then after that, I read to Lerner. I was like, all right, enough kiddie stuff. Take me to Tolkien. I was reading Tolkien in seventh grade. Wow. Which is like really ambitious. Those are dense. Yeah, but I loved Legolas. I thought he was the coolest thing in the world. I was like, I would be Leggolist. Do you still have time to read a lot? I mean, to feed that passion? Not as much as I used to. Yeah. Like, now I don't even read like fiction. Like I read a lot of like how to heal your brain and the dopamigenic response of the, the reward system. I'm like reading that kind of stuff. Yeah. It's like, well, your soul. How do you rinse your

soul? I'm like, oh, God. But I enjoy that for some other reason, like very introspective. I think the closest thing I've read to like kind of adventure, but it's still spirit is in the autobiography of a yogi by Paramahansa Yogi Nanda. And I'm like, okay, I'm getting like, it's, it's a spiritual download, but I'm also getting like fantastical stories. So, yeah, I don't have much time to read anymore, but when I do read, it's to grow.

Yes. I think we'll get back on fiction. I need to get back on fiction. I need a good fiction recommendation that is not fan fiction. Yes. There's a lot of fan fiction. You've had enough of that. I'm not going to lie. I've read a lot of Sailor Moon fan fiction. A lot. So I'm just like

show me the way. All right. We get some submissions from our viewers. That would be amazing. And I'd actually read, I promise. Thank you, Lizzo. This was so much fun. No, no, leave me here. Leave me here.

Lock the door. For the day. Turn down the lights, just a few candles. Leave. Leave me here. Leave me. Thank you so much. That was great.

Thank you. That was great. So fun. My big thanks again to Lizzo for a great conversation. Her children's book, Lil Lizzo, meets Sasha B. Fluton, is available now. And my thanks to all of you for listing again this week. If you want to hear more of our conversations with my guests every week, be sure to click follow so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune in to Sunday today every weekend on NBC to see these interviews with

your own two eyes. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast.