Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - Matthew McConaughey on True Heroism in ‘The Lost Bus,’ Acting With His Family, and Lessons That Last

Episode Date: October 12, 2025

Over the past three decades, Matthew McConaughey has starred in more than 50 films, won an Academy Award for Dallas Buyers Club, delivered an Emmy-nominated performance in True Detective and topped bestseller lists with his memoir, Greenlights, but he’s still chasing something more meaningful. In his latest project, The Lost Bus, he tells the gripping true story of a school bus driver who risked everything to save 23 children during the 2018 Camp Fire, California’s deadliest wildfire. McConaughey sits down with Willie Geist to reflect on acting alongside his teenage son Levi and his 93-year-old mother in the film and how the project deepened his perspective on fatherhood, legacy, and what really matters. He also discusses his new book Poems & Prayers, the power of belief in a cynical world, and why risk-taking has defined his career. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks, as always, for clicking and listening along. It is always a good day when I can tell you I have a conversation with Academy Award winner Matthew McConaughey. This is the third time he's been on our show. The first time was back in 2020, right at the height of COVID when he came out with his memoir, Green Lights, which went on to sit on the New York Times bestseller list for almost two years. incredible. Now he's out with another book called Poems and Prayers, which kind of gets at a conversation around the soul of who we are, who we want to be right now, how divided we may feel, but the common ground that Matthew sees and the kind of the way out of this predicament

we find ourselves in. It's a really good conversation about staying engaged, staying hopeful, staying optimistic, and kind of getting together on some things in the way that only Matthew McConaughey can describe. That's a great. part of the conversation. The other part is about his new film. It's called The Lost Bus on Apple TV Plus. It is a movie based on a true story around the 2018 campfire, which was California's largest ever wildfire. And it focuses on the story of a real-life school bus driver in Paradise, California, the town that was devastated by the wildfire. His name is Kevin McKay. He was picked up the dispatch, go pick up a group of kids who are stranded at their school,

basically go save their lives. He made the decision to answer that call, went and picked up these kids, and then spends an entire day driving around trying to get away from these flames, trying to find a way to safety for all these kids, along with a teacher on the bus, played by America Ferreira. It is a harrowing movie. And when you think that it was based on a true story, it's all the more incredible. So he's great in that. We talk about his career, of course. You know it by now. In 93, he starts with days and confused.

All right, all right, all right, all right, and all of that. And the rest is history. He has a great run of romantic comedies before kind of taken a couple of years away from the spotlight to sort of, I don't know, think about who he wanted to be in Hollywood, rebrand a little bit and come back as a dramatic actor and have this great, great run. You think about true detective and interstellar and then the movie for which he won the Academy. to be awarded 2013 movie called Dallas Buyers Club. He's had a great career. Now he's got this other side of himself that's an author. He's a thinker. People have wanted him to run for office. And I think that all comes through in our conversation. So sit back, relax, and enjoy right now. Matthew McConaughey on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Matthew, thanks for doing this. Good to see you again.

Good to see you again. Got so much to talk to you about. We can wait. Texas football can come at the end if you want. We'll hang on to that one. But I have to start with the movie, The Lost Bus, which I was just telling you, I finished like an hour ago. So I'm still absorbing it all. Yeah, I'm shaking it out a little bit. People remember the campfire? November 2018, the worst wildfire in the history of California consumed the town of paradise. But this is a very specific story that most people didn't know.

So who is your character and what happens if you can just set the scene? So there was a lot of heroes that. day, there were a lot of people who didn't plan on being heroes that acted heroically. Jamie Lee Curtis heard this story on NPR called Jason Bloom, produced. They got a script together into Paul Greengrass. He came to me with this. There was a story that we tell of a man who had come home in our story because his father died. He can take care of his mom as a widow, reconciled a relationship with his son from a previous

marriage, takes a part-time job as a school bus driver in town. takes your kids at school that day. About to go pick them up in the afternoon, drop them off. The fires are coming over the canyon. They've done that many times before. It wasn't a big deal. All of a sudden, boom, the first responders who went up there to put the fire out, notice that the fire had jumped the canyon.

Whoa, mandatory evacuation of paradise. First responders are coming back to get back in town to put the fire out. While you've got a mandatory evacuation, not a good combination, outgoing and coming traffic. At the time of the mandatory evacuation, this guy that I play that we're telling the story about is headed home in the bus to go pick, get his mom and son because they can't drive, either one of them. I want to go save them. And just as he makes that decision to do that, it comes through bus dispatch. I've got 23 kids stranded on the east side of town.

Has anybody over there with an empty bus? Well, guess who's got an empty bus? This guy, Kevin. So what do you do? what's the choice you make this man chose to go pick up the kids when he got there he picked them up in the bus and also the teacher of mary ludwig who's played by america ferrara boards the bus and this is the story of the next six to eight hours of their life and what happens um and that's the story we chose to tell as you you saw it's a it's part horror movie yeah and he's the best fire movie i've ever seen

I've seen the fire is such a predator in this thing. It makes you want to almost run from it, and you're in your seat in the theater. It's a big, beautiful, epic, you know, action film. And at the heart of it, it's a great human drama about these two people with these 23 kids on the bus. Yeah. So to be clear, for the audience, in case I wasn't,

this is a true story. Yeah. This is based on a true story. This happened. but we told based on the facts of this true story. And you got a chance to talk to Kevin, spend some time around him, hear about what he went through that day,

but also where he was in his life in that time. What were those conversations like with him? So I think the most important ones for me is I sat with him and he retold me the day a couple of times. And he would have specific points where he'd have to catch his breath, like when he noticed that this is not just a regular fire that's coming across cany this looks different it looks worse oh be oh i got to take things in my own hand so to speak when he made and how he made the decision to go get those kids and how almost utilitarian is my job

simple it's my job we got to almost more credit because that's not a job you got to almost more credit because that's not a dry sort of platitude answer. A lot of people on that day did heroic things and a lot of people do heroic things in life when they go, it was my duty. That's what I'm supposed to do. He wasn't looking to be a hero that day. Mary Lugler wasn't looking to be a hero. First responders are heroic in that they get called when there's a crisis and they go out to try and abate it. These, a lot of people in life like Kevin and Mary in this story were not looking to be a hero. We're not trained to be a hero. They found themselves in a circumstance and they chose to run towards the crisis instead of away from it. And, you know, that's a heroic act. Listen to him tell those stories, the fear of not

having any communication. Self service, the cell towers are burned down. Dispatch. There's no CB, whatever radio is service. You couldn't talk. There's no communication with the outside world. He didn't know if his mom was okay. His son was okay. Didn't know. He was flying in the dark. He didn't know. If the necktile he was driving over, had worse fires than the ones he was leaving from. So the improvisation that he pulled, the fear of the unknown, the anger he had, the frustration,

the sense of what else can I do? Is this it? Listen to him, retell those stories informed a lot of where I was and what I did with the performance. What did you pick up in terms of his reaction? to the fact that there's a movie being made about his experience that day and he's being played by matthew mccanehaye you know after the first sort of giggles and jokes about a hoot-a-thunk if you make a movie about and picked up my particular story and that you're playing me after

we got past that it was very much after 20 seconds um he's honored um probably a little wary at the beginning as anyone rightfully is if someone's coming to tell a story based based on your life of that day and talking about a personal story, that's your personal story. So you don't wanna, probably, I'm supposing there's some feeling of like, I don't wanna feel trespass upon in the wrong way. Yeah.

But that was never the intent. And I think that was Jamie Lee who found this story and went to him and the real life, Mary Ludwig, talked about the story we wanted to tell about how it wasn't gonna be a biography. It wasn't a documentary on what they did that day, but it was gonna capture the spirit, be based on their experience that day.

We were never set out to do a gotcha or to tell a version that would be inappropriate or irresponsible to what they did. And they understood that, believed that, and that's true. So, you know, he saw the film. I talked to him after the premiere in Toronto, and he seemed, you know, honored by it. And looking at it with level head. It'll be interesting. Talk to him in a year after people see the film and talk about it.

go, hey, you're Kevin. What does that become? You know, when all of a sudden, strangers are coming up to you that you don't know, but they know you. That'll be interesting to see. And he's gone on and become a teacher and continued his care for children. A great relationship with the sun. Yeah. Yeah. So this movie, in terms of being an action thriller movie, you're driving through what feels like a maze of fire, your character is, and just looking for an exit. And every once in a while you go through a fence or something, you go, this is it. More fire. Yeah. I just cannot imagine. he had to be brave up there,

but the terror he was feeling, knowing not only his life was at risk, but he's got those 22 kids back there too. Yeah. And how many times it looked like a dead end? How many times it looked like, ah, this is the escape route, we'll be fine once we get to this point that,

no, to find out the fires had already spread there as well. And then you get towards, you know, part of the story where it's on all four sides. and it appears to be an absolute dead end, unless you can fly, which they can. Heat, exhaustion, fire there, fire there, fire there, fire behind us. Let's just sit here. Hope, pray, maybe the winds change, maybe rains, I don't know.

And then what do you do? In this story, this was, if you want to get through hell, sometimes you've got to drive right down the throat of the dragon not wait on it not be passive at all but that you know to be on death's doorstep like that but to look that dragon in the eye and go we're going to find out yeah because it was that that that was a dead end road yeah so I'm going to go out raging and see what happens there are a couple moments in there that look can feel maybe like resignation, but just for a minute. And he's kind of stealing himself to get back after that dragon.

Yeah. And because logically, I mean, I'm sure he did have some resignation along the way. And I know he did the way I portrayed him at places where it's all for not. Done all I can. There's not another exit. We can't dig a hole and we can't fly. And four-dimensionally 360, we are surrounded. Go where?

Maybe the best thing is to sit here. The fires aren't here yet. But they're right over there coming over the hill, which they find out. Yeah. Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Stick around to hear more from Matthew McConaughey right after the break. Welcome back now more of my conversation with Matthew McConaughey. one of the beautiful parts about this story

because there is a father-son dynamic to it is that your own son, Levi, is your son in the film. What was that like for you? Not just to have your son in a film, but also to have that powerful and relationship that's full of strife and trying to find it again together.

What was that like? Well, it was unemotionally very professional. At the same time, there was an extra sort of soul to it for me. One in that, the relationship we have in the film is not good at all. Very different than, thankful to say, than our relationship in real life. And I've since talked to, and talked to him beforehand. Levon, I talked about it. About how, you know, go all the way there with how much you despise and hate who I am as your father in the movie.

Because we have such a good bond in real life, you can go. He felt like he had the freedom to go there and not be like, wait, I can't go to that space. You know, it was able to go because our relationship is so healthy in real life. Look, did a lot of those scenes for me choosing to go back and pick up mom and Kevin.

A lot of, quite a few scenes in there where I was, you know, our embrace at the end coming together where, yeah, I was thinking about what if I was in that circumstance, when to get back to my own children. And then to have them right over there on set, they were there. You know, I didn't need a photograph. They were there to think about.

The pain of leaving, what if the last time you left, your child, you were in a big row, you were in a fight, you went out at each other. And you know, that may be the last time you see them. The regret of that, the will to survive even more so you don't end it like that. The pain of, but that is how it probably it ends. All of that played in.

And, you know, it felt very professional doing it with him, though. He, I got to say, once he got the part, and I talked to him about it. I said, look, you know, I can help coach you. I can help teach you what I can. I go, but once we show up on the day, once you show up on the day, you've got to own your man. I'm not there as a safety net. And he showed up. I remember how he got in the car that morning.

I almost had a little shoulder close to me looking out the window. And I was like, okay, there we go. That's what I wanted to see. Yeah. He was not looking to me to go, no last minute check-ins, no like, hey, is it okay? How'd I do? Uh-uh. He worked with the director and I sat back as a proud dad going, there we go.

So is he off and running? So you want to do what dad does? So far, he's leaning into it. Yeah. He got another role, way of the warrior kid that'll be out next year. A really nice role on that. I went with him for six weeks. Stayed in the hotel rooms together and drove to work together, two

work and from work and he enjoyed it and he did good and he's looking at this as you know right now part of the journey that he a really cool part of the journey that he has in his life will it be something that he ends up pursuing you know as a full-on profession I don't know I'm not putting that pressure on him either way but he's off to a great start he's in the door he's in the door and that's such a hard part in this business to get in the door and you know to this as far as nepotism goes for me and I always say, you know, don't you ever feel entitled. We'll help you get in some doors. Once you're in the door, you've got to handle your stuff.

That's why when he got the, when he read for this role in Lost Bus, I sent it to the casting director. I said, I think it's good enough for a callback. And she said, I think it's good enough to send to the director. And I went great. And then I went, oh, but pull his last name. If you get it or he doesn't get it. But even especially if he got it, I don't want him ever thinking,

did the last name. And I don't want his last name helping him get the job. Right. And especially, I don't want him ever thinking in the back of his mind, did I get that maybe partially because of it? That's why we didn't name him Matthew. So we wouldn't do Matthew Jr. That's a lot.

We named him Levi, which is another name for Matthew. But anyway, and then the director saw it and said, that's the kid. So he got it on his own merit. And he's in the door. And he enjoys it. He's still learning about it. I try to do my best teach and coach him. Probably overcoached him a couple of times.

Oh, yeah. We do that as dads. I'm probably, I put him in the scene and I do her. I'm like, I think I gave him too much to think about. Damn it. You know? Somebody go, he's good. He can do it.

Go. Yeah. And your mom is in it too. As your mom, she was great. Well, Mike, 93. Wow. She can find energy, especially if she's going to be in front of the camera. She, Paul was looking for a role.

He had cast the mother, but the scenes didn't work and they needed to be rewritten. And he was said, you know, I don't think I want to recast. He says, what about your mom? I was like, well, it's a good idea, but let me get her in front of camera on. He was like, okay. So I said, Mom, send me a minute tape on why you love being a mother. Well, she sent me an eight-minute tape. And I showed her to Paul, and he was like, that's perfect.

That's your mom. I said, well, she just took a fall at my older brother's house and broke her tailbone. So she's in a wheelchair. He was like, well, that's even better for the role. Wow. So she came, moved out there with us, and New Mexico, we were shooting, went to work, got to be a diva. played her role. She got her own trailer, the whole thing.

Oh, that did. Oh, yeah. I sat back, man. There was like, it was her show. You know what? I didn't know that was your mom going in. She was a natural, I thought. I mean, she played it really well.

How much fun, little family reunion on the set. I was told, and I don't know if this is true, maybe we can fact check that that it hasn't been three generations in a scene like that together since the Douglas family. Oh, wow. So it's something that is really, cool, but it's going to be cooler over time. Yeah, yeah.

Because it's going to outlive us, you know what I mean? It's there. So look, and you just pictures as me, we got to go to Toronto Film Festival and premiere the thing and have my mom here and my son here and be in the middle as a bridge with those generations doing something that became a career for me. That in 1992, I didn't know if it was gonna be a weekend hobby.

It turned out to be a career. Very cool. Very cool. Very cool. This, the Lost Bus is your latest over like, 15 years now. I think we can stop calling it the maconaisance. That's an old story, I think. You are this guy now. You've done all these incredible dramatic roles, won the Academy Award for Dallas Buyers Club. And as a lot of people know, this was very intentional, that you kind of

stopped down, took a break for a couple of years, left L.A., moved to Texas, and just kind of checked in and asked what you wanted out of this deal and what Hollywood expected you to be. Given your success now 15 years later with that decision. What do you think is the lesson in that for other people? Yeah. Success, profit. Quantity, quality. Success measurable in the head up. It's usually numbers. It's usually quantity. Profit usually measured here, heart and soul. And that's the measure of quality. I was successful, but I didn't feel like I was I was making a profit. I was doing work.

I was the king of rom-coms. I liked doing them. But they weren't, something was keeping me up at night going, I wish my work could be as vital as my life feels right now. I wish I could feel as much in my work. Can it challenge the feelings that I'm getting in my life? At that time, Camille and I are in love, she's pregnant.

So I'm turned on. Life's on fire, right? that had to be. And my work felt like I could do that that role tomorrow. I was like, that's okay, but I'd like to find roles. I'm like, that scares the you know what out of me. I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I can't wait to find out. Those were dramas.

Those were not getting offered to me. So I was succeeding. Made all the sense. My brothers were even like when I took the time off. They're like, what is your major malfunction? Little brother? You're making good money, man. You're doing. What are you doing? But in the dark night, in here, I was still saying, nah, something's not complete. Something's not as full. The tank's not as full in here as I want it to be. So I took the risk, trying to succeed and profit, you know, to match the quantity of success with the quality of success that gave me value.

And that's what, that's the risk I took. And those roles came. And that's exactly what I felt. I started to feel a success with profit. I love what you say. You go away just long enough to where Hollywood thought, oh, Matthew McConaughey, that's a new good idea. It became, I think I gained some anonymity. It was almost two years that I was out. And I didn't want to be out two years. Trust me, I was waiting for just an offer and I'll take a pay cut just to get in some of those dramas I wanted to do. They were not offering them. So after 20 months of not being in the theater and a rom-com, of not being in your living room, of not also, I think seeing me, on the beach, shirtless, and which kind of looked like the sister of the rom-com.

It's like, oh, the daylife and what I'm seeing on screen, they're very similar. You didn't see me of that. So where was I? I think turning down the $14.5 million offer was a big thing, too, because that let some people know, oh, he's not bluffing. And when you've got someone that you know they're not bluffing, you start to go, what are they doing over there? They're not just receiving.

and they got a plan. They're playing offense. He turned down in 14-5, and he ain't worked in two years. I know the guy would like the money. He said, no? What's he up to? I think that became, I became more interesting. With the time away, 20 months, it also became.

You know who'd be a new novel, original idea for a Lincoln lawyer, a killer Joe, a mud, a magic mind, a Dallas Spires Club, a true detective, that run of Wolf of Wall Street, hey, Matthew McConaughey. So it was an unbranding, unbranding phase before I rebranded. And it was a little risky because there's a chance Hollywood never would let you out of your lane, right? They weren't. And I thought, I was, I was shaking hands to the fact that I had written a one-way ticket out of Hollywood.

And I was looking at other vocations. I thought about going back to law school. I thought about becoming a teacher. Thought about becoming a wildlife guide. Because I was like, you rolled the dice and only would said, no thanks. We're not playing with you anymore. So I was like, I didn't regret if I was going to have to do that. That's the one thing.

The going back, I was never going to go back and do. I would, I had written my own non-negotiable. contract with myself. And Camilla and I had, you know, he's like, that's the decision. We're sticking to it. No matter how long it takes, even if it takes so long that we've got to find something else in doing life. And here you are. Given all the success you've had since then, including Green Lights and your new book, poems and prayers, which kind of continues this idea that you started in Green Lights, which is like mining your old journals from your teenage years and creating some new thoughts and wisdom as well.

What will people find in this book that's a little different maybe from Green Lights or is a continuation of that? So our Green Lights had a lot of stories and chronology of my life, wins, losses, et cetera. This is more, when I say poems and prayers, this isn't as much stories. It's ways of approaching, ways of stirring up and reviving belief in ourselves, which I believe is in short supply. and I hear from a lot of people that for them it's in short supply as well. I wrote this book because the belief was getting in short supply for me. I was starting to doubt more than I was comfortable with. I was starting to look down my nose and get a little cynical.

I was starting to look around the way of the world and starting to go, maybe this is just how it is. And that scared me. And then it pissed me off. And I said, no, I'm not ready to wave the white flag and let doubt win in me. And I noticed that a lot of people were saying the same thing. And I was like, oh, that math.

would not add up. If we let doubt win, we're all going to lose. So I don't necessarily think that we as a people are desiring properly. I don't think we're perceiving properly. I don't necessarily think we're understanding properly. I don't think we're going after the right things. So therefore, we're not behaving properly.

We need belief. It's in short supply. And whether that's in God, whether that's in your kids, your future, your better self, whatever that is, we need more of it, we need to double down on it. And if you don't know where to find it, ask yourself the question, who or what would you die for? That'll lead you to what you should probably be believing in more, what you should probably double down on more, what you should probably start living more for. And we're going to have to, we're going to have to find that each of us individually. And enough of us do that. I think collectively,

we can move forward. Can't let the doubt win. Because if it does, yeah, I'm pretty sure we all lose. Stick around for more of my conversation with Matthew McConaughey right after a quick break. Welcome back now to the rest of my conversation with Matthew McConaughey. How do you fight that cynicism? And I ask you because so many people feel that way. I hear it all the time.

Maybe this is just the way it is. But we've got political leaders telling us the other side is the enemy. We've got social media algorithms, reinforcing our beliefs, all that. How do you punch through that? Well, you've got to keep fighting. I think we have to not concede and not let our, every time we say, oh, this is just how it is. Which is an extremely, to be nationalistic for a second,

an extremely un-American way to think. Because the idea of America is about the continual pursuit, even though we may never arrive at a, the right equality or the right justice or fairness. We made it, but to continually pursue, to never say, which is how it is. America's a verb, you know, the spirit of it too. And so, but us each individually,

no matter what country you're from, we, you become a cynic, early death. It means you quit. To some extent, it means you quit. If you quit believing, and you start going, ah, hey, cynics are clever to get, people to giggle at the cocktail party.

But they quit. They actually quiters. It's easy to be cynical. It's easy to be snark. It's easy to be clever. It's easy to say, it's off or not. Just the way it is.

And now you don't even have to say it. You can just post it and walk away from it. I was talking with somebody yesterday. And we got to, you know, this idea that people, and his, his line was, I think people are out to try and misunderstand each other. I found that really interesting.

They're out to seek contrast before comparison. They're out to go, well, I don't, not really, what you said, I'm just already looking for an answer that can argue that. Before I'm even listening to what you're saying, I'm always looking, because then if I do that, I feel like I had an individual answer. I was original, and wasn't that cool, wasn't that clever, Wasn't that edgy?

That's short-term thinking. That's like cheering when your opponent misses more than you cheer for when your own team makes. It's like, come on. We've got to have more confidence. I think more belief than that in ourselves to not seek to be the contrary and the cynic all the time, which it's a default place to go. And I think it's kind of chicken shit. And we're all buying into it.

it's been sold us at every turn. I understand why we feel that way. I'm not preaching to say, I don't understand why you feel that way. I get it. Turn on the news. Check out the algorithm. It's built to do that.

You know, it reinvents itself instead of, but I believe there is and should be and can be a coalition and expectation of how we're supposed to, rules of engagement with ourselves and each other. I don't believe that you can just say, the ethics are whatever the winner did. Wait a minute, can we check first to see if the winner moved the goalpost? Or lied and cheating and stole before they got there?

Because, and when we're being told, no, it doesn't matter. As long as they win, they get to the front of the line. Now, hang on a minute. Bullsh-sh-sh-sh-h. Now, to go a step further, some of the people who are saying that are also saying, oh, and by the way, if you do follow the rules, you a sucker. Bullsh-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-h-hound-a-h-h-hruhs, there's

understanders, there's truths and traditions that we have to maintain. There's new ideas that we need to adapt to as well. That's true progress. Progress isn't saying yes to every damn new idea and forget everything in the past. It's also not saying, I'm going to be a dinosaur, just how we did in the past. I don't want any change.

That's not progress either. So the progress is the combination of the two, but there has to be, I believe it's not asking too much, to bring in an ethical moral bottom line to some things that can stand that we can trust in, things that have worked in business, in relationships, that have worked in the past that will continue, no matter what changes, no matter what AI does,

no matter what the algorithm says, no matter what some of our leaders do and telling us to divide, there are some things that we can contain, a sort of moral and ethical baseline that is not asking too much. to expect from each of us. And if you don't want that, if you want to be a nihilist,

if you want to say, ah, it's all for nothing, I don't care, I'm going to be a tyrant. But you know what? Go your own way then. But we're not, it's not, the armies of us or don't need to accept falling in line with that being just how it is, or that that's okay. And that's on you and me individually in the damn mirror first.

That doesn't need to be policed by anybody else. I think it should be policed on the outside more, but that needs to be policed on our own. If we believe more than what we personally value, we will police ourselves on those. Because you realize you don't really win that way. Yeah. Not the long game. When you say the armies of us, I think that's key.

Yeah. Because the extreme voices on both sides of this thing are the loudest ones. They got the most attention. So it's easy for someone just living in our culture to assume, oh, that's the way we are. We don't like each other. I just reject that out of hand. And I think in your books, you speak to that. So hang on a second. Of course, there are always pirates on either side of the ship.

But we're in this thing together. Let's figure it out. Yeah. We got to, and I think to get it back, you and I were talking, I think it was offline before we started recording, but I think it's going to be a punk rock rebellion and not a kumbaya, namaste, let's be peaceful and see what happens. I think it's going to take some rage on the part of believers, whether, again, God or self or better self or each other, take grabbing the mic back. And they're not going to get it back. The extremes, the pirates on the starboard and the other side aren't going to say,

oh, yeah, here, just waiting for you to ask. No, I'm going to have to fight to get it back. Yeah, I mean, and I was saying to you before we started, I feel like you are a great voice for that, because what we do in our culture now is dismiss somebody because we find something about them. He or she's in that party or he or she holds that belief. They'll find things you've said over time and maybe try to stick that to you.

But generally speaking, they can't paint you with a brush and dismiss you that easily. So I think personally, I think even in a different, arguably more important way that politicians, for you to come through and say all this, people sit up and listen. And I think that matters. Do you sense that, I don't want to call it responsibility, but the people are leaning in and listening? Yeah, I sense it to an extent. I hope so. And look, I want to say, so I don't come across as being preachy,

when I say we, I'm including me, stuff I'm talking about, I'm not making straight A's in all these classes. This is to myself. I'm trying to call myself out too. And I'm trying to shake hands with the fact that, yeah, good. It is a process. All of us are working. And we need to keep working.

It does take, it's going to take some sweat equity. for all of it, it's going to. Not one of our leaders can do anything unless we get off our own porch. So we can't sit back and rely on fate. Can't sit back and rely on our leaders in a position to do that for us. We've got to put our own hands on the wheel. And that can be overwhelming. What do you mean?

Trying to change the world. No, don't try and change the world. Uh-uh. Look in a mirror. Just start with the choices you're making. They're a lot more fun to do, have them. than mandates anyway. Choices, you know, and understand and believe that better choices for yourself, truer choices for yourself today do have a compounding interest and give you more

ROI down the road. I think part of that's the main thing, is just trusting that there's a bigger payoff and having a little bit of delayed gratification and going, oh, if I do this, oh, that's going to make my relationship healthier with my wife. If I do this, that makes a little bit of a delaying That makes me a better boss, a better employee. There's so many things to just trust, if we can just trust a little further, that we will reap more rewards. Now, if you're religious, you believe in God,

and you're trying to live in a way that you think how you live today may have something to do with where you go, that's another delayed gratification to believe in reason. If you're not religious, I do say, hey, fine. There's great ethics in the text of the Bible, They're in the Koran. They're in many different religious books and teachings. There are places to go, use those.

Don't be mad at the author? Just because it's the author, pick out the stuff that you go, that's good. That actually works. That pays me back. And whether that's a philosophy you have. Again, if you're not a tyrant, you're not a, double down on that philosophy, man. Whether it's science, double down on that science.

So it's a, yeah, I think we've got a call to action in front of us. And I know we can do it. We've got to not concede to go, it's just the way it is. And not let ourselves off the hook either. We've got to counsel ourselves and administer ourselves, referee ourselves in kind. And that, if we do it well, pays us back as well as the most amount of people. That's the sweet spot. all this raises the question you've been asked about running for governor and all that stuff you said no i've got

kids yeah i want to be there which i sympathize with very well do you see some other role for you down the road or you think this is the best lane for you to be in right now this is that i think this is the best lane but i but i'm i'm open to that where i can be most useful where my voice and understanding can be most useful as it is where and what i can learn maybe i'll find an avenue i don't even know yet maybe, you know, leadership down the road in another category, maybe in political category, I don't know, can be, oh, I see that lane. I can be useful there. You know, politics is not my, the way I speak, the way I come about things,

it doesn't, it's not really political speak. Right. That might be an advantage now. It might be. Yeah. It might be. I'm trying to speak, I think what I hopefully is above politics, probably. probably more center too.

And to go back to answering a question you were talking about earlier, talking about this is going to take a rebellion. You know, somebody told me, oh, ain't nothing on the, you know, middle of the road, ain't nothing on those yellow lines of a dead armadilloes. I'm like, that's funny, but it's a good line. Okay, on the fence. No, it's not on the fence.

It's actually a strategic position to be able to go left and right when you need to go right. It's like playing free safety. It's an aggressive, really aggressive position. And if we start looking at that, then we have an offensive mindset. Then we have an affirmative mindset, not a defensive mindset.

And it's not going, eh, I'm a little of this or a little of this. That's not what I'm saying. It's not middle of the fiddle being about nothing. We talk about it in there, but there's a difference between a nice guy and a good man. A good man has ideals, and if those are tested,

good man's not going to be a nice guy. I'm not saying this. Like I said, it's going to take some sweat equity, And I think it's more of a punk rock rebellion than it is a peaceful, easy place. In the middle, we go both ways. That's not what I'm talking about. Well, keep at it.

We need your voice in the conversation. A lot of that comes through in the book. So, congrats on the book. Congrats on the film. And speaking of free safety before I let you go, how are we feeling about the horns right now? Come on, horns. We're not off to the fastest start that we expected or hoped for. We went down to Ohio State, got beat by a good Ohio State team.

I thought we were going to win that game. And then we've won the next two games. We got a W. Let's be happy about that. Did we, are we performing to the, is our offense performing to where we had hoped it, not yet. I believe we will. I don't have any worries about our quarterback and arch at all. A guy who's got a credible ability and he's got great character. And he'll see through this and see what BS not to worry about.

And he'll start playing ball as himself. And we can find that rhythm. We don't have a rhythm down in offense yet. And that'll happen. And part of that's bound, part of the passion game is balance with the rhythm and the running game, you know, that'll open things up. So I'm excited about where we're going. Sometimes it takes time, too. Give the guy a couple games to get rolling a little bit. Yeah. And then we'll see you on November 1st when the Commodore has come into Austin. The Commodores. Could be a big one. Who would have thought? The Commodores are no longer, what do they call in the Essie? They call them the dormant. No, they're not. No, sir. They just swing out of South Carolina, drubbing the gamecocks at home.

Yes. It's a new day. It sure is. Congrats. Great to see you, man. You too. Thanks for doing this. Appreciate it. Absolutely. My big thanks again to Matthew for a great conversation. Always enjoy sitting down with him. The Lost Bus is streaming now on Apple TV Plus,

and his book, Poems and Prayers, is available wherever you get your books. And my thanks to all of you for listening again this week. If you want to hear more of these conversations with our guests every week, be sure to click follow so you never remember. missing episode. And don't forget to tune in to Sunday today every weekend on NBC to see these interviews in living color. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast.