Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - Sam Rockwell

Episode Date: May 8, 2022

Academy Award winner Sam Rockwell is getting rave reviews for his return to Broadway in the revival of American Buffalo, where he takes on a famed role played over the years by stars like Al Pacino and Robert Duvall. In this week’s “Sunday Sitdown,” Willie Geist gets together with Rockwell to talk about the Tony Award buzz around his performance, as well as his prolific career of roles ranging from George W. Bush in Vice to Bob Fosse in the hit series Fosse/Verdon.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks as always for clicking and listening along. I have an Academy Award winner for you today. His name is Sam Rockwell. He won that Oscar a few years back for his performance as best supporting actor in three billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri. Amazing performance in a career of them, really. Kind of the thrust of our conversation is that Sam, by his own admission for 30 years, or so as an actor flew below the radar. You knew his face, you knew his name, maybe, who was that guy in that movie. He'd been in big budget movies, Charlie's Angels, Iron Man 2, the Green Mile. He'd done all that stuff. His first starring role came 20 years ago, first lead role, I should say, on screen

in Confessions of a Dangerous Mind, where he played gong show host Chuck Barris, directed by George Clooney. But he's been in a ton of movies. You always like him. He's always good. And then when he won the Oscar in 2018, he finally, he would say, was on the map, on the radar, though he'd been at it for a long time. His latest performance is in the classic David Mamet play, American Buffalo. There's a revival on Broadway right now at the Circle in the Square Theater. It's not a true in the round. It's sort of a three-sided stage. So the setting is a pawn shop in the late 1970s. There only three characters. It stars Sam, Lawrence Fishburn, and Darren Chris. It's just the three of them for two acts. And I'll let him explain the plot, but it's three kind of hustlers, kind of guys who are

trying to make small-time crooks who have their eye on a big score. And they're just in this beautiful set where Sam and I sat down for this conversation. We're sitting on the stage, surrounded by seats. 50th and Broadway, I want to say, is the theater. There's a lot of talk that he could win a Tony Award for this performance. He's got the Oscar. Why not throw in a Tony? A super interesting guy has had, as I said, a long career. He played George W. Bush in the movie Vice.

He was amazing in Fawsey Verdon, where he played Bob Fossy in that series, if you saw him there. Interesting split childhood. His mom, an actress in New York City, spent summers with her school year back in California with his dad, who was a union leader. So he kind of had split life, but always knew he wanted to perform in one way or another. So I think you'll really enjoy a great conversation with a super interesting guy, Sam Rockwell, right now on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Good to see you, Sam. Good to see you. Thanks for having me in your pawn shop.

Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming the journey. I told you I was right up there a few days ago. Yeah. It is a powerful play. It is, isn't it? It's something. It is.

It comes at you fast. It stays on you the whole time. What is it about this play that drew you in? Obviously, some legends have played the role of Teach. It's well-known mammoth play. What did you love about the role? Well, you want to tackle a real beast, you know, and it's kind of like Street Hamlet or Iago.

It's one of those great roles. And, you know, the only way to become a better actress to do the great roles. So, you know, you've got to see what you're made of. and go for it, you know. So what makes this one of the great roles? For people who haven't seen the play? Yeah, what doesn't make, well, I guess he's an antagonist like Iago,

but he's, he does a lot of talking like Iago or Hamlet. There's a lot of talking. You know, like in Virginia Woolf, there's a lot of talking, or Death of a Salesman or Fences, you know. So I've been watching a lot of those kind of things to prep for it. or people are just yaking. Yeah. A lot of saliva, hopefully.

Or lack of. Yeah. If you're doing it right, there's a little bit of spray. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Totally. Keep your mask on. That's it. That's it.

Yeah. So just for our audience, who may not have seen the play, just describe a little bit about where we are right now. It all takes place here. We're in this pawn shop, yeah. And it all takes place at Don's pawn shop. And he looks after a kid, Bobby. who is a recovering heroin addict and kind of like his son, I guess.

And Fishburn plays Don and Darren plays Bobby. And I play Teach, that's his nickname. His name is Walter Cole. And he's a former thief. They're probably both ex-convicts, him and Don. And they were kind of in the 70s, 80s here. you know, we're not really sure what it is. There's a member's only jacket, maybe,

and some disco pumps. Sure. You know. But, yeah, so we're, we're, it just, we find this, he finds this, this guy comes in to buy some stuff, and he finds a buffalo nickel and buys it for a lot of money, and then Don feels that he's been ripped off. And so he tells everybody, gets the kid involved,

and then Teach wants in on it, So he gets the kid out of it. And, you know, hijinks ensue. There's your tease. There's your tease. There you go. There you have it. Yeah.

What is the mammoth thing, if you can articulate it? Because the dialogue comes fast. Yeah. Like we were just talking about, there's nowhere to hide on this stage you are in every moment. That's right. What is the, how do you explain the mammoth sort of genius? The mammoth thing is, you know, you have to listen very careful. when you're doing a Mammat play.

I mean, you have to listen carefully when you do any kind of acting, but and I'm a Misener guy, so I like to, I'm all about listening, but it's, you know, I think that the misnomer about Mammond is that there's a style, and I think when it's done well, it doesn't seem like a style, actually seems like real talking.

Right. You know, if you see Glenn, Gary, Glenn Ross, the movie, it seems, these actors are so seamless, you know, Chino, Alan Ark, and all those guys are Ed Harris, you know, that it comes off like just normal speak, I think when it's done right. And I think that's the trick.

You've got to know it so well that it sounds like people really talking. And it definitely does, especially since you're sort of like in certain scenes, you'll be wandering over back here. Yeah. And it looks like you're just playing with something and then you dive back into the scene.

Yeah. It feels like you're kind of exploring the stage as you move. Yeah, yeah. as you deliver your lines. It's just a cool energy. It's really cool. It's a real honor to be in this theater. You know, I saw George C. Scott here when I was 10, present laughter. I saw Phil Hoffman, who was a friend of mine, do True West and John C. Riley. I've seen a lot of stuff here. And the amazing production of Oklahoma I saw here. It was great, you know. And it's a rock and roll Broadway house. It doesn't feel like a broad. It feels more downtown.

and like the Ansbacher at the public or something, it's got a rock and roll feel. And there's a legacy, you know, a lot. I've seen Pacino do Chinese coffee and Salome here. I think I saw Suburbia maybe with my friend Steve Zahn and Josh Hamilton. And I think it was here. So it's a real privilege to be here. And it feels rock and roll.

It feels, you know, like downtown. You know what I mean? It does. Yeah. A little bit smaller venue, intimate. Yeah. What is it like to do? This isn't fully in the round, I guess, but it's a circle.

Yeah, I guess you're right. It's not fully. Yeah. What is that experience, like, different from just performing on a stage? We'd be more accustomed to. It's very funny because you will see people looking at their programs or on their phone or whatever. And maybe I get a little louder sometimes when I see that. But it's, yeah, it's really, it's interesting, you know.

I've done plays like that. And at the public, I did a play like that, and you see people. And it's interesting. It's cool. In a way, it adds to the authenticity, because I'm over there, and I'm looking at your back sometimes. We're delivering a line. But that's how life is. It's a real room.

Exactly. That's how life is. Yeah. And we wanted it to feel like that. The best theater I've ever seen has always been like the true West I saw here, always been like a documentary or something. Yeah. You know, I like those kinds of straight plays where you see, you know, it feels real and scary

and, you know, it's just like life. As I say, it's just the three of you. It's you, Lawrence Fishburn, Darren Chris. Yeah. An amazing group. Had you worked with them before? Did you have a relationship with them before? Because, again, this is a really intimate experience.

Very intimate. Yeah, we, well, two years ago, we were. rehearsing, and we were about to come to tech, and we were shut down because of lockdown, the pandemic, and so. And Fishburn and I continued to run lines on FaceTime or Zoom, and occasionally Neil, the director, and Darren would join us. And at a certain point, you know, thinking the pandemic was going to be over in, you know, a month or something. So we were trying to run our lines. Oh, we got more time to run lines, you know. And then we just did it to not go insane in lockdown. We were We would just do it because we were just, like, lonely.

And so Fishburn and I would just run lines just to keep from going crazy, I think, you know. And so I think we bonded in a big way. And then two years later, we're here. Did you ever feel like this might not happen? Oh, yeah. If it goes along, you're thinking, hey, maybe we lose this altogether. Absolutely. We didn't know if it was going to come back.

And if theater was going to come back. And then they were talking about filming it, and we didn't know what to do. So, yeah. It was scary. But we all wanted to come back, you know, and be a part of this, you know, getting Broadway back and stuff like that. When it first came to you, maybe your agent or somebody told you about this idea, what was your first impression? Of the play? Yeah, they want you to play Teach in American Buffalo. You thought what? Well, I chased it for a while. I think there were a lot of people attached, and for whatever reason they fell out.

I think Leav or Oscar Isaac were going to do it, and then they fell out. And so then it somehow it came back to me. And I think I chased Fool for Love too for a while. I think a few people dropped out of that. So you're not always the first choice necessarily, but then it feels meant to be, you know. You're there when they call your number. Yeah.

And then you're like, yeah, I'm doing that. I know you say you don't read reviews, but I shared with you that they're almost unanimously excellent. For you and for the show. Good, good. Does that mean something to you? Is that nice to hear? It's nice to hear.

You know, like, if I do a film in retrospect, if somebody sends me something nice, I'll look at it sometimes. But in theater, you're still doing it. Right. So you don't want to get influenced, even if it's a good review, you know. Fills up your head a little too much. Yeah, yeah. I think you got to stay, yeah, hungry and neutral.

And I'm not going to jinx anything, so I won't say the word out loud. But would it mean something to you to be recognized even further with a trophy of some kind? for this role. It would be lovely. It would be very nice. And, you know, I could get together with Billy Crudip, but we could have, like, a fight with the metal, maybe. Um, uh, yeah, I mean, you know, that's always fun stuff. It's, it's, uh, but that's not really the reason we did the play, but of course, that would be great. That would be awesome to be recognized like that. Um, but, you know, the, the reason to do the play is to get, is to kind of scare yourself and, you know, It's kind of like going to the gym, I think, theater for actors.

It's like going to the gym and doing a full court game, you know. It strikes me watching this play that it's just the kind of thing you may have fantasized about as a kid when you run around New York with your mom and she was an actor. Yeah, yeah, sure. And like, here you are now. Yeah. Was this always, not this play necessarily, but the idea of being on a stage with people sitting here, was that always the dream for you? Yeah, it was. You know, I guess I got, I like the lifestyle watching my mother and her friends do it.

And I, I don't know, there's something up being in a dark theater when it's nice outside with a cup of coffee and, you know, a lack of vitamin D. And you're just kind of like, I don't know, there's something great about it. I love, it's a very urban thing, you know, urban event, I feel. I mean, not necessarily. They have theater in the Midwest, too. But I just think that it feels very of my childhood, for sure. Yeah. So what was that like for you?

Was there ever anything else on the menu in terms of your future? Or were you destined for something like this? No, it was in the blood, I guess, you know, I saw my father and my mother do it. I did it with my mother when I was a kid. We did a play together when I was 10 and 11. So, yeah, I just was. But I don't think I took it seriously. until after high school and that I trained with William Esper.

And then I was like, all right, I got to get serious about this, you know. Did your parents ever give you any warnings about it, that it's not all red carpets and awards shows, that it's a grind. Well, I saw that. I saw that firsthand with my mother and going auditions, and she used to sing telegrams and, you know, working restaurants. I worked in restaurants and stuff. So, yeah, I saw that firsthand, you know. And my dad had to get a real job. He couldn't make a living as an actor, you know.

So, yeah. So you come here full time when you're 18. Yes, yes. What was that like? What did you imagine was going to happen when you got here? You know, I just wanted some adventure. I think I've said that before. And I was making coffee at the Figaro Cafe.

And I worked at the Time Cafe as a busboy. And I was studying acting. And then went from like sublet to sublet. And then I just wanted to kind of have some adventure meet some bohemian types, you know. And then things started to pick up and, you know, did a bunch of like commercials. I started doing TV commercials. You remember any of them? Should pay the rent.

Yeah, Burger King and MasterCard. Yeah, that would pay the rent for the summer sometimes. Sometimes pay for acting school between restaurant jobs. And so, yeah, you know, that was like winning the lottery. You get a residual check from something, you know, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or something. That helps. Yeah. That helps, yeah.

It feels like maybe it's from watching your mom, but you understood what the business was going to be. Like, in other words, you worked at it. You trained. You took all these different jobs. You weren't doing it to be rich and famous and the things that may come later for an actor. Like, you did the work. And you climbed up the ladder to get where you are. Does it feel that way?

It does feel that way. I mean, you know, it's good. Money doesn't suck. You know, it's good to have money. But I, you know, yeah, I definitely wanted to really to do it the right way, you know. And I probably turned down some opportunities because I don't think I was ready, actually, you know. Movies? Movies theater, you know, TV and, and, you know. different things. But I think it worked out the way I was supposed to work out. Yeah. So when is the moment, Sam, when you go, okay, I can make a living doing this? I'm doing well enough where this is going to probably pay my rent for now and maybe in the future. Was there like a moment? Was there a play? Was there a movie where you said, I can do this. I can do this. Well, I don't know. I don't know if that, I mean, I started, I think when I was around 34, I started to make a living. And you got here when you're 18. Got it was 18. That's a grind. 16 years.

Yeah, that's true. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I'd have to think about that. Yeah. Well, I guess it's 20 years ago this year was Confessions of Dangerous Mind. Oh, geez, man.

You believe that? That was a good gig, yeah. Right? So that's a lead role, big movie, Clooney, all of it, right? Yeah, totally. Was that a big moment for you to get that job? That was a huge moment. And actually, the movie didn't do well initially,

And now I think it's people look at that movie as really George did an amazing job with it. But in retrospect, a lot of the movies I did are kind of looked at in retrospect. Jesse James, Galaxy Quest. Those weren't big hits initially, you know. But yeah, Confessions was a big deal, big deal, you know. It was really fun. It was really fun. You had that joke when you hosted SNL where you said,

I'm the other guy. I'm the guy in the movie. No, not that guy. This guy, right? And there was probably some of that through those years. Yeah, sure. But it feels like it changed, right, in a run of movies, whether it was, you know, Vice,

and then we did Fosse Verdon, all those things. When did that change for you where you thought, like, okay, maybe I'm not the other guy anymore? I guess I'm starting to feel a little bit of that maybe now, but I'm 53, so it's kind of. But yeah, I mean, it's always been, I've always felt pretty good for a while. And then recently it's picked up for obvious reasons, but it's, I always felt like I had a pretty good career for since Confessions, for example, you know.

I was doing pretty good then, even before Confessions. I was making a living, but it's nice to get recognized. You know, it's nice to feel that sometimes. And then you have to sort of deal with that and kind of, all right, well, what are you going to do now? You know, you got to put your money where your mouth is. You got to, you know, do something else, you know. And you've had some variety, right? You've done like Charlie's Angels and Iron Man too.

Yeah, yeah. Do you, are you a planner in your career or do you just take them as they come? Yeah, you know, what they say, you want to make God laugh, tell them your plans. Yeah. No, I mean, I think only power you have in this business is to say no, and that's it. You don't have any real, you know, it's all, it takes you, you just try to do interesting roles. And I like the roles that are sort of in the gray. They're not black or white.

They're kind of complicated anti-heroes or whatever. But I just like contradictions, I think. and characters. Yeah. You know. And there certainly was some of that. I mentioned your Oscar speech. Yeah, yeah.

In three billboards, right? There's some contradiction there. Yeah, of course. A great movie, great cast with Francis and Woody. Yeah. The moment they'd call your name at the Oscars. Yeah. Felt like what?

Pure adrenaline. Yeah, pure adrenaline. Just get up. Say what you've got to say. Get off as quick as possible. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's just, yeah, it's a moment in time. It's really, it's just a surreal thing.

And what did it mean for your career to have? It's a nice bump, you know? I think it could go either way with that thing. You know, I don't think it really, I think it depends what you make of it. You know, I don't know if that's kind of, you know, really determine anything for sure. but I think it's for me it's been good I think you know mostly hey guys thanks for listening to the Sunday sit down podcast stick around to hear more from Sam Rockwell right after the break welcome back now more of my conversation with Sam Rockwell when you walk down the street Sam what's the movie

people most yell at you about they say I loved you in uh way way back green mile galaxy quest Moon surprisingly gets a lot of play, which always surprises me. It's a smaller movie. But yeah, yeah, random things like that. But I don't know, not too many people screaming. Well, New York's subtle anyway. Yeah, they just give you a look.

Yeah, they give you a look, you know. Hopefully, yeah. Like, I'm important, too. I also have places to be. I see you, but relax. Exactly. Relax. Take it easy. It's fine.

No, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, they'll go out of their way to tell you they don't care that they saw you. Yeah, exactly. My wife likes you, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or the pensive look, which looks like they might want to punch you. It's a real coin toss.

It's a high school with you. Yeah, they might want to punch you. They might want to punch you. You know, they might mention now that you have the number one movie in the country. Hey, man. For another week. But how would they know? Because I'm not recognizable.

The voice, though, right? We know the voice. How fun is that? That's really cool, man. I've done a lot of animation stuff, but nothing as fiscally successful as that. It's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. Yeah, so maybe, who knows?

For people who haven't seen it, what's the story behind bad guys? It's your guy. It's, you know, bad guys, criminals who decide to reform, and they, you know, take a journey and kind of find that, A little bit of good, a little bit of bad is good maybe. I guess that's the moral of it. I don't know. Yeah.

But they're animals, and it's based on this Australian comic book, not children's book, really. And it's really cool. It's really cool. And the initial children's book is really great to look at. It kind of looks like the far side, right? It looks kind of like Mad Libs or something, you know. But it's, yeah, it's a lot of fun.

So you've been successful in animation, successful on a stage like this, successful in movies. Yeah. If I made you choose one, do you like being in front of a live audience or on a movie set better? They're both, I know this is the corny answer, but they're both great in different ways. I think I should probably do more theater because it's, it is, these gaps become bigger and bigger. Like seven years, five, ten years, five years, five years. and then it's harder to get back in the groove, I think. So I think to do it more often would be good.

Stick around for more of my conversation with Sam Rockwell right after a quick break. Welcome back now the rest of my conversation with Sam Rockwell. What's the, it's a, I'm sure, a welcome grind for you, but what is the grind like of doing this show with matinees, this 20 nights a week, and doing it again and again? You feel like you do something different every night? Do you get better at it every night? Yeah, hopefully you do.

You do try to, you've got to make it fresh. You have to conserve your energy. You kind of have to think about it all day. And everything kind of is geared towards the show that night or two-show day. So you can't, you know, wear yourself out. You've got to be kind of, it makes you a little crazy. I mean, you know, you worry about your voice and stuff like that. Worry about getting sick.

you know, because you don't want to lose your voice or get sick. So it's like a little bit like being an athlete, I suppose. Yeah. Is it hard to get out of a character like this? Oh, it's easy. Is it? I'm done. Yeah, I'm done.

Yeah. You walk off the stage and it's over. Yeah, it's Millard time. I'm out. Yeah. No, it's not hard for me. Yeah. But sometimes you don't get it all out in the performance, and then you're like,

that wasn't really... But there's always tomorrow, you know. You can try to attack it the next day and do a better job. Or sometimes there's tonight. Or there's tonight. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

So pretty cool that you kind of, you've described your youth as like joining the circus, right? Yeah. Yeah. That you've ended up. up where you are, not just here, but in film. Do you think about, like, the chaos of your youth a little bit and hoping that it might lead to this place and now here you are? Yeah. You think about that kid? It is weird. It is weird. And it was a little chaos in my childhood, and it is, but it also informed why I'm here, I think. And, you know, theater is controlled chaos, you know,

hopefully. It's like, that's what's fun about it. That's what's cathartic about it. And I think it's also an exercise in relinquishing control a little bit, because you really have no control. I mean, you can memorize your lines and know where you are and rehearse and everything. But at the end of the day, it sort of takes on its own thing, and it's like you're riding a surfboard, I guess, waiting for a wave, although I'm not a surfer, but, so, you know, you just have to go with it. I think the best plays kind of take you for the ride. And if you think you're controlling it, you're mistaken. It's taken you.

I mean, you can try to drive the car, but it's going to go. It's on autopilot. Yeah, yeah. If you get off the tracks, you've got to get back on the tracks. It's a whole thing. So what else is out there for you, Sam? As you look at the landscape, obviously you're in the middle of this right now. Are there other things you want to do professionally that you haven't done?

Because you've done almost everything. Shave this mustache. Maybe. The job one. Get a haircut. Shave the sideburns. I don't know. Yeah, keep the sideburns.

Yeah, yeah. Maybe the stash too. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. Geez, I don't know. It's hard to look beyond this.

I think some time off would be good. Yeah. Yeah. Because you've been living this for a couple of years already. Yeah, yeah. Enough is enough, I think. but yeah, yeah, just hang out a little bit. That sounds pretty good.

Yeah. Congratulations. It's amazing. So great to see you. Thanks, man. Thanks a lot. Thank you. My big thanks again to Sam for a great conversation.

If you're in the New York area, you can catch him in American Buffalo on Broadway, which runs through July. My thanks to all of you for listening again this week. If you want to hear more of these conversations with my guests every week, be sure to click follow so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune into Sunday today every weekend on NBC. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast.