Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - Sheryl Lee Ralph

Episode Date: February 25, 2024

On this week's episode, Willie sits down with the Emmy-winning star of the hit series "Abbott Elementary", Sheryl Lee Ralph. They talk about her role as a kindergarten teacher that is giving her a well-deserved moment in a long, storied career.  Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another edition of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks, as always, for clicking and listening along. I got a great one for you this week with someone who is truly a life force and a light in this world. She is Cheryl Lee Ralph. She's one of the stars of the hit series, Abbott Elementary, where she plays Barbara Howard, the no-nonsense kindergarten teacher who's seen a few things in her day while working in the Philadelphia public school system. hilarious show, getting all the acclaim in Emmy Awards it deserves, including one for Cheryl last year. She won for Best Supporting Actress in a Comedy, becoming only the second Black woman ever to win that award. And she's been through a lot.

She's lived a lot in her life and her career. She has so much wisdom. She's so positive. She's so uplifting. And she talks about her long road to this moment that she's finally having. I mean, just in the last year, she sang at the Super Bowl. She was Mrs. Claus in the Thanksgiving Day parade. She's about to get her star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.

And it does feel like Abbott Elementary is sort of this reward at the end of almost 40 years of work. More than 40 years of work, actually. She got her first part on Broadway in 1981. She originated the role of Dina Jones in the original production of Dreamgirls. That's the role that Beyonce later played in the movie version of it and had a lot of success and a lot of frustration between Broadway and Abbott Elementary that she gets into. She's just a joy to be around, a joy to talk with, and I think you'll enjoy spending a little time as much as I did with Cheryl Lee Ralph right now on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. It's such a pleasure. It's great to be here

with you. Thank you for doing this. I've been looking forward to it. Oh, me too. Oh, yes. Me too. And especially in this sort of grand room, I think it's appropriate for you. You know, Very much. I did have the feeling that it has an intentional almost 80s feel to it. And then I imagined you've just done a performance of Dreamgirls in 1981. And we've come here for dinner afterward. So there's the fantasy. Oh, that's so sweet.

That's so good. But I never went to dinner after the show. Right. Too tired. And too late. Too tired. Too late. Because that was a very long show.

You would get out about quarter to 11, which was at the time, very long, but you know what, it would have been a great, it's a great fantasy. I like it. What are your memories of being in New York at that time? And when you come back here, do you feel that? Does that stuff come rushing back to you? I remember and think clearly about what a hellhole 42nd Street used to be. Early 80s. Oh, my God. The fact that you literally took your life into your own hands walking from Broadway to 8th Avenue. It was like your parents would warn you,

don't do it. So I think about that sometime. And now when I look at it now, and you've got the Lion King there and stores are there on the corner, I'm like, wow, what can happen in a short period of time? But I think about that.

I think about, you know, the fact that I had a good girlfriend at the time called Wendy, Wendy Creed, and he was such good, friends and Wendy would come to the theater. And Wendy used to have to hail the cab for me because we could be the stars, the bell of the ball on Broadway, but could not get a cab to go home.

And 8th Avenue was going uptown, so they were not trying to pick up black people to go uptown. Oh, it was terrible. But my good girlfriend, she would come and get the cab for me. Oh, it was very nice of her. Even the star of Dreamgirls. Even, thank you. Yeah.

There you go. Well, we'll talk more about Dreamgirls in a second. Can we please start with Abbott? What a beautiful, wonderful show. We were just talking at some length before we started about how impactful it is, how important it is, but how funny it is, how smart it is, how full of heart it is. What does it feel like to have been a part of something now as you enter season three that has been such a cultural force that has been so successful on so many different levels?

I think to myself how blessed I am to be at this point. point in my career after everything that I've been through the ups and the downs to have a gifted young performer look at me and say miss ralph it's you take this journey with me and that was quinter brunson who said we need a queen for this role and you were that queen and then to be a part of of a show that can actually shine a much-needed light on education in America and around the world to give educators the respect that they are due and that they deserve. I think to myself, does it get much better than this? Then I win an Emmy.

I'm like, oh, my God. And they want to give me a star in the Walk of Fame. And I'm like, oh, my God. Wow. It's just the best. It's like I know what lightning in a bottle is. And I get to hold it in my hands. I'm blessed.

I thank you, God, and Mother Earth. Oh, yeah. That's beautiful. The gratitude you have, because you know how hard you've worked. Oh, I do. To get to this level of recognition in your life and how much you put into it.

I was laughing, reading, you said, yeah, I'm a 40-year overnight success. It took me 40 years. 40 years to become an overnight sensation. It's crazy, but I love it. And it's so amazing because I was in New York. I went to see Pearlie Victorious, and I took a cab to the theater.

And the driver looked at me when I tried to pay. you know, to pay for your cab ride. He said, Shirley, Ralph, you don't own me a thing because you've paid bills for all of us. Wow. And I was kind of stunned. I'm in New York. How often does that happen?

Doesn't happen. I think you. Last time couldn't get a ride. But he said, he looked at me and he said, no, I'm serious. And I was like, wow, I get to get that kind of love from people. And it's amazing. It's amazing. That's full circle.

with the cab. Yes. So when Quinta first came to you with this idea, you share a little bit of what her pitch was, what did you think about the concept, about the show, about playing Barbara or maybe playing the principal you would consider it a little bit too?

Is that true? Honestly, God, I knew that people would see me as an upright, correct person. And I said, what if I got a chance to play somebody that was absolutely, totally different? And she was like, no, deal breaker, absolutely not. Barbara Howard or nothing. I said, that's all right.

That's all right, Barbara Howard. And I love Barbara Howard because she just represents so many teachers that I had, so many teachers that really believed in me as a student who really said, you don't have them now, but you will have wings and you must fly. You know, and to have that sort of. confidence put in you, I will have wings and I will fly. You know? Sometimes you just have to have a teacher that puts it in your brain. I see you and you can do this. Stop being afraid. Get up there and do the work. Sing your song. Study. Do the math. I remember, you know, math was never my

subject, really. And the teacher was it, Mr. Martin. Moskowitz, might have been sixth grade. And he was like, all you have to do is get a C. Just get a C. Wow. You pass. I got a B because he said, he set that bar. Right.

And all I had to do in my mind was if all I did is get a C, I'll get it B. I got it be. It might have been the first and the last B of the math. That's all right. But I did it. You cleared the bar. I cleared the bar. So did you have teachers as you took on this role that you thought about?

that you wanted to sort of embody or did you pull pieces of different people in your life to play Barbara? Pieces of so many different teachers. I had a teacher by the name of Miss Iris Whitaker. Miss Whitaker was in Jamaica. And when she put all of the students together, it was like sit up street.

You only have a few seconds in the world and the world is going to decide who you are. Make sure you know who you are first when you get to the room. Speak properly. Enonce your words. Apolly, Cheryl, clearly, your turn, go. Then there was another artist, and, you know, you think about these when you're young.

There was a woman by the name of Louise Bennett. And in Jamaica, Louise Bennett, you know, she held the culture, the stories, the language, the patois, the everything, you know, the clothing, all of that. She held all of that within her art. And I was just practicing mine, and she had a little show called Ringding. And, you know, if you came to ring ding, you were somebody. And she asked you to speak. And she asked me to speak. And maybe it wasn't great.

Maybe it was just okay. But she looked at me and she said, clapar. And I'm telling you, the fact that I deserved applause, you know, it puts something inside of you. My auntie Carolyn, just an incredible teacher. My dad, a lifelong learner, an incredible teacher, started out as a music teacher, ended up as a college professor. It was just, you know, so many teachers. My gym teacher, Miss Judy Burfind, who said, run your race. I love that. I remember what they said to me. You never forget those teachers. You never forget those teachers. We were just having a great conversation before we started about the

impact this show has had on telling their stories in this country and reminding people how hard it can be, but also how dedicated they are and why teachers do what they do. To me, we're talking about how government has one side of it, but the culture has another side of it. And to me, that's what one of the blessings of your show is to just shine a light on what it means to be a teacher in America. Do you feel that?

Oh, absolutely. I feel that so often. And when I speak to teachers, when I run into teachers and they want to share with me how seen they feel, feel, how much they appreciate the show. They're not the butt of the joke. They are the heart of the show. And what they do, people don't understand what it is like to have a passion in life. And to be a teacher is to have a passion for learning. It's a passion for giving. What it takes to mold minds, young minds, and give them the desire to go forward in life and do their best.

Those are special people. And why we don't give those people the tools that they really deserve, that they really need to educate all of our children, not some of the children, but all of the children. I don't understand. I don't understand why parents don't demand more for their children. Parents need to be involved. They need to show up. Teachers need the school board, the city, the state to understand it takes money to educate. Why is it that we're in New York and just two states away? There is a teacher. Her salary is $35,000. She is teaching second grade.

all day. She cannot live on that amount of money. She must have a second job. So now this woman is working over time and she's paying off her education. What are we not thinking about? What is not important for us? Education is important.

If you choose not to educate children, you get what happens very often. You get carjacked. Yeah. They end up on your doorstep and you say, how did that happen? Well, an idle mind, an uneducated mind is a devil's workshop. We owe it to ourselves to start educating our children as soon as possible. The moment you're three-year-old can scroll to your phone and go through Google, they should be in school.

With a good and proper education. And the money we spend on that is not wasted money. not wasted at all. We need to come up with programs to keep our children in school. Why, in a great city like Los Angeles, we can't get kids to graduate from high school? Something about that has to change because statistics like that show you that there's a real dumbing down going on in America. And we are a great nation. And we deserve to do better, much better, by and for each other, especially our children and the people who educate them. Don't get me started, Mr. Guys. Don't get me started. And that is while I'll be voting for Shirley Ralph in 2024.

Write her in, folks. Right her in. No, I'm married to a politician, more like a public servant, Senator Vincent Hughes. And I'm telling you, I will never run for office. It is one of the most thankless jobs in the world, especially if you have a passion for people and a passion. for politics and making things better for the people. No, I will never do that job. You're having your impact outside of politics. That's okay. Thank you.

And sadly, the story you just shared about the $35,000 salary of the teacher who works two jobs and probably pays for a lot of her own supplies. That's right. Is that it's not uncommon. It is not uncommon. That stories happen all over the country, all over the country. And I just don't understand it, especially after COVID. You remember all those videos we saw after COVID?

People were like, I can't take it. My children. I had no idea. They were this bad. Please open up the schools. I can't do it. I'm like, oh my goodness, people. Now that you know, you know better, let's do better.

That's right. They're your children. Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Stick around to hear more from Cheryl Lee Ralph right after the break. Welcome back now more of my conversation with Cheryl Lee Ralph. What are the kinds of things you hear from teachers who come up to you on the street or stop you at the grocery store or whatever it is? What do they say to you about this show? Thank you.

And how do you know that this is really what's going on? It's like you all are so right on. It's like you're listening to us in our classrooms. It's like you have cameras and you're seeing what's going on. They're fascinated by that. And that's when I have to say that we have an amazing writer's room. We have a writer's room that is very diverse, although I wish they had one or two older people in the writer's room.

But for the most part, they're very diverse and their finger is on the pulse of what's happening and they care. And also with our creator, Quinta is wonderful. What she sees in the world, what she wants better in the world. You know, sometimes I look at her and she has this thing with her fingers and I'm like, she's conducting. This whole show is like a symphony, the Quinta symphony, you know. She knows what the next notes are and where it's going to be. And when I tell people when they're watching the show, don't think you're going to see the same thing again and again.

You're not. Because it's like, you know, the kids say life, be life. Life, which is totally incorrect English, but Abbott Elementary, be abiding. Says the teacher. Yes. Be Abiding. It has been so.

nice to see the rewards for a great show. And we were talking about a show on network television where some people have said, you know, really the action is on streaming or it's on Netflix or HBO. And that's true. But what you guys have proven and shown is, no, no, we can still do it here in a way that is smart and actually has an edge to it and succeed the way you have. And I, you know, whether people want to say it out loud or not, Abedel. Elementary is literally saving the American comedy on TV. In fact, I'm going to say this. Abbott Elementary is saving TV.

The fact that we are getting people to watch it the way they are. And how I know this is true is because a very big TV executive pulled me to the side and said, Shirley Ralph, let me just tell you this about your show, Abbott Elementary. People can say whatever they want to say about TV, but they will never say it enough. This show is saving TV. And this show, like you just said, is proving. All you have to do is know what it is you are here to do and raise the bar of excellence. Because Quinta, with the casting of this show, the writing of this show, the production of our show, the directing of our show, the directing of our show,

has proven bring the best to the court, and the rest will come. And that's a fact. And it was a private conversation, so we won't say his name, but suffice it to say it was a very well-known, very experienced television executive who said that to you. So that's high praise.

Yes. I've got to ask you about Emmy Night, the night you won. Yes. My gosh, no one will ever forget that speech. You might, because you said you've bled. blacked out a little bit when your name was called, but I'm sure you've seen it since. What are you looking back remember about the way you felt that night when Amy Polar called

your name? I absolutely was in shock. I could not believe that it was me, but it was me. And I couldn't get my brain to tell my legs to move. And then Quinta, I could hear Quinta's voice. She said, get up! It's you! And, you know, I stood up and there was Tyler,

and Tyler was taking me up there to the stage, and I had to center myself. Because I was about ready to lose it. And my father would always say, do not cry. Do not cry. Keep your composure. And I was about ready to just break down. I could hear my kids in the balcony screaming,

Mommy! I could hear them clear as a bell. And I just sang. You know, I knew this song that Diane Reeves had written, and I just sang it. And that song for me said so much, you know, I am an endangered species. I'm a woman. I'm an artist. And I know where my voice belongs.

And I had no idea how much it was going to reach people, you know. And it was from there I was calm and I could just talk. And I just let people know how I felt in this moment and how thankful I was to be there. Because I'd never been invited to the Emmys before. And out of my whole body of work, I'd never been invited. And the first time I'm invited, I win, you know. And I was like, this is showbiz at its best. This is a good movie, you know, because somebody knows exactly what I've been through, you know,

and what it's like for people to tell you, you know, they're not ready. Robert De Niro and I, we were doing a movie together called Mistress. And he said to me, in the middle of shots one day, he looked at me, he said, you're a damn good actress. And that's too bad, because Hollywood is not looking for the black girl. So you better climb that mountain and wave a red flag And let them know that you were there And I was like, it was so many things all at once, you know

And it's Robert De Niro saying these things to me But I better climb the mountain and wave that red flag So there you have it And there you were standing on the mountaintop There I was on the mountain in the moment Had you planned to sing? I hadn't planned anything. Okay.

I hadn't planned anything. I hadn't written anything. I was there as a supportive actor because I was sure it wasn't me. I was there to do the red carpet, look fabulous, enjoy the moment with my husband and my family. And that was that. If that was an evening, I would have had a good time. Right. I'd have been fine with that.

But that wasn't what God had in store for me. And then to top it off, he said, you know, there's going to be a little strike. here so you're going to actually hold on to this Emmy reign for 16 months enjoy every one of them you said you waited this long we're going to give you four extra months four extra months yes you get it that's amazing that you just belted that out spontaneously that's so cool yeah and then as you say you composed yourself and it was a beautiful speech thank you and what a moment i mean you touched on a little bit but to win an Emmy you know the the star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame your mrs. and the Thanksgiving Day parade.

It's like all this stuff is rushing toward you. Is it overwhelming at all? Are you just enjoying it? Oh, I'm just enjoying it. It's like, ride the wave, baby. Ride the wave. Wave to the people. Say hello.

Look lovely. Be lovely. Enjoy it. You know? I don't have to ask for anything. People give it to me. All I have to do is be good. And more good just comes to me.

Oh, it's great. I'm telling you, I'm living the love. life. This is the dream. This is the dream. And I don't have to do anything but be my best. I wake up at 4 o'clock in the morning to be at work at 5.30, but it's worth it. It is so worth it. I'm loving it. And you've earned it. You've earned the moment, right? And you know what? I know what that means. I earned it. I used to be a Girl Scout. And being a Girl Scout, you have to earn the badges. and I had, you know, a nice sash. I wish I still had it.

But I looked at those badges of honor and it was like, I earned them. I did the work. And my mom was like my scout leader. Oh, it was just great. And when I held that trophy up and it's heavy. And I was like, I earned this. Yeah, I did this. Yes, I did.

Yes, I did. Now, was that out on Long Island we're talking when you were growing up? Oh, between Jamaica, between Long Island, between New Jersey. Oh, my God. Everywhere. Yeah. When was the first memory, when is the first memory you have of performance of, oh, I have an audience, or I can sing a little bit, or I like being on a stage? Was that early in your life?

Summerstock. Summerstock, because my dad was a choir, director, music teacher, all of that when I was very young. and we got cast in the Helen Keller play. I forget the name of it. But my brother had the line. My brother Stanley had the line. And I remember every night, I would look at him, give his line.

And I was like, that should be me. I should be giving the line because I was just standing on the side, right? And I remember thinking, I want this. Lawrence Road, junior high school, Mr. Martindale, was this. the music teacher, Mr. Martindale, the Christmas concert, Oh, Holy Night.

Oh. And I sang, oh, holy night, I got the solo. And when I heard that applause, oh, my goodness gracious. Oh, my, I used to daydream about being on the stage and on Broadway, where I was at the Emmys, I would dream about that sort of stuff. And then I heard that applause. I was just like, I'll never be able to live without it. It was like mainline, main line.

Oh, my God, I got to have it. Applaws. Oh, yeah. And yet, when you go to college, you're pre-med. Yes. So was that your parents saying maybe you should do something a little more practical? I'm an immigrant's child. My mother immigrated from Jamaica.

And my mother would say, be a doctor, be a lawyer. And if you can't do that, then marry one. And I was just, oh, my God. God. And I remember saying, okay, I'm going to be a doctor. Then I went there to Rutgers and they had this huge, you know, it's like a hair. It's like the huge, it's like the Easter bunny on steroids. And I got this blue velvet box with a scalpel in it. And I remember opening that scalpel looking at that Easter bunny and I'm like, I'm not dissecting the Easter bunny. I'm not doing it. I'm not going to be a doctor. I'm not going to be a doctor. So I

immediately left that class and I went to the registrar and I went back to Rutgers and the registrar is gone now but I went back there and I said I'm going to I'm registering to be a lawyer and somehow I got into constitutional law and I remember this teacher you know with her hair pulled back in this severe bun and you know I was describing the teacher when I went back to Rutgers because I gave the great commencement speech last year so I was describing my teacher of constitutional law and they said was that Ruth Bader Ginsburg? What? And I said, what? They said, yes, she was teaching constitutional law. The time frame adds up. So can you believe it? I think I walked out on the future Supreme Court justice. Wow. I said, oh my God, I will never be a doctor. I will never be a lawyer. This is not happening in my life. And I got lost on the street and on the dead end, which is no longer a dead end, which is my life. Imagine the little theater was on a dead end. dead end street. And I went back, it's not a dead end street anymore. But I look at that little

theater on the Rutgers, on the Douglas campus. And I think, wow, look at that. Dr. John Bentender, my teacher, who said, you've got something here. You've got something here. Wow. And did you really graduate at 19 years? I graduated at 19. I graduated at 19. I graduated college at 19. Listen, I realize. I, you know, realize that college is like anything else. Once you know the road work, once you know the plan, you can get there. They said to me, you have to have a certain number of credits. Every semester, you get these credits, you pass these grades well, you're out of here. That's what I did. That's exactly what I did. And I created, at the time, something that they were just experimenting with

independent study and a student was able to put together the curriculum and there was a place at the time called the negro ensemble company and in that class they had all these great actors of color black and there was so many people in a sarah dash from la belle trezana beverly from um for colored girls who've considered the rainbow and i was in the class with these people and i'm a kid and when i went back and they were like, you're in class with who? And so I would go there every Tuesday and Thursday. And I passed. I got an A.

And that's how I ended up with my first film, a piece of the action with Sidney Poitier, because my acting teacher became a producer. And he called me. And you see, that's show business, relationships. Who knows you, who likes you, who's willing to spend their money on you and get growth out of their money. And that still remains the plan today. who knows you, who likes you, who likes working with you.

So many things happen out of that. Anyway, that's how I graduated at 19. Graduated at 19 and wasted no time with your career because you missed your graduation for... A skippy peanut butter commercial. When I got that commercial, you know, at that time, commercials, they were union jobs and you got paid money. The $35,000 that I got paid. doing that Skippy Peanut Butter commercial kept me from waiting tables.

All I did was trained to act, prepare to act, headshots learning how to be myself in front of a camera. That money went to that. And I figured I love you, Rutgers University. Thank you. But you all will mail me that piece of paper. And that's what they did. And is it true?

You still keep Skippy in your cabinet? Absolutely. I keep that peanut butter in my cabinet because I'm grateful, because I'm thankful. Peanut butter, creamy peanut butter. I think that's what it was, yeah. And every time you see it, you remember where you began. I do.

There it is. Yeah. I do. Thanks is an important thing. What are you thankful for? I'm thankful that I get up in the morning. You know what? I have a friend who's suffering.

right now. He was misdiagnosed. He has cancer. But he thought he was going to die a few weeks ago. And I went to see him and he said, Cheryl, I woke up this morning and here you are. Grateful. Grateful. I woke up this morning. I'm grateful. I'm sitting here talking to you. We're having a great conversation. I'm thankful. Likewise. I think gratitude is important. Gratitude is important. What is it? Gratitude is a must. Yes.

Yes. Yes. It is. Stick around for more of my conversation with Cheryl Lee Ralph right after a quick break. Welcome back now to the rest of my conversation with Cheryl Lee Ralph. So you start working. You get spots on different shows, good times at Jefferson's Wonder Woman, I think. Like you did the, you hit some big shows.

I did. Which felt like a break to you. Did any of those feel like a break, or was it not until Dreamgirls that you thought, oh, now I've got something that really showcases what I can do? You know, it was interesting to go from under five to, you know, under five lines. You know, that's a certain way that people get to start. You know, my line on the Jeffersons was Mr. Jefferson, don't forget your wife's birthday. You know, he and I, Sherman Hemsley, we stayed in touch basically my whole career.

Wow. His last show, we did a pilot together, you know, and I think about that, people staying in touch with you, your whole career. But I think about the fact that before I got to Broadway, I had TV under my belt. I was doing TV, you know, it really was. And then I was on Broadway for however long that was, it felt like forever. Oh, my God, 1,247. performances. Was it that many? It was that many. But that's nothing compared to folks in Wicked now. Wicked, they're there for like 20, 30 years. I'm like, oh my God, they're buying three houses and putting their

kids through college. They're staying in that one job, which I say to myself, oh, feathers, go away. I say to myself, how do you do that? Because I knew it was time for me to leave Dreamgirls when I got up on stage one night only and the music was playing and there my smile was on baby and i couldn't remember not one lyric but i knew happy birthday happy birthday happy birthday happy birthday because if you keep moving your mouth somehow it seems like you're talking if you say happy birthday it seems to fit every syllable syllable you know what i'm saying anyway i hear loretta divine saying one night only One night only. And it's like she's speaking Japanese.

I'm like, I don't get it. And I hear the stage manager said her, Mike's dead. And the stage manager on the stage says, her brain is dead. And I was just like, absolutely right. I took a vacation and then that was it. You were fired. Yeah. I got fried.

A casting director cast me in a series called V. And I didn't come back, went right back to TV. That was that. Dreamgirls got you a Tony nomination. Yes, it did. It was a big deal for you, a big deal for your career. But as you've said, it also was, it wasn't easy, right? It was a mixed bag in some ways.

Yeah. For me, you know, it wasn't just my art. I learned so much. You know, I learned how to use my voice to create a character. You know, one of the things was I could never, ever, never copy. You could not copy Diana. If you copy Diana, we'll get sued. You know, you had to create a likeness

that was all of those artists together. But of course, in my head, I love Diana. So, you know, what the heck. But, you know, the fact that you could create with your voice, these characters. And I still use that now very much, you know, to be under your talent and then to try to match your talent with your vocal abilities. Because, you know, even after the Emmys, people were like, I had no idea you could sing like that.

And I was like, wow, you know, but I learned so much then. but it was my human learning that really took a hit because I saw what happened around AIDS. And people's inhumanity towards other human beings, I'm a child of the 60s, and I was traumatized by my childhood in the 60s. That whole racism, the dogs, you'd see the dogs on kids that were just a little bit older than you. that was horrible.

Just the straight out blowing people's heads off on TV and what you saw, it was horrible. And to see people's vitriolic hate against people who were suffering and dying and telling people that's what they get and that's what gay people deserve. I was like, this is horrible. And you would sing and dance with somebody,

then they'd be fighting for their life the next day. and you're not going to go visit that? What? You're afraid of the friendship that you had? You're not going to call their people? That, for me, was devastating to see how people could treat other people. Oh, my God.

And in some ways still continue to treat other people. You know, what I saw then, and I compared it to that. early COVID, it's horrible. When you're friends and they didn't want to call their people and then their people didn't want to come for them, I'll never be the same after living that. Never. And that just, that really changed me in a lot of ways. And that's early 1980s New York City.

That is the beginning of that. crisis beyond and left a big impact on you, given your documentary film, your foundation, that that was something that you have carried with you for all these years since then, it seems like. For me, it was important for people to understand, we are all human beings. We are all human beings. And the moment you are unkind to other people, I know how much you don't like yourself.

Because only somebody who carries around some kind of hate for themselves can hate on other people. It's just there. You just don't grow up and say, I hate those people. You learn that kind of stuff. You feel less than in yourself. And that's why you feel okay to hate on those people.

Trust me, I used to always tell people, You want a good friend? You better get yourself a good gay friend, honey, because they will be right there with you through thick and thin. One day I was at a convention, and there was a women's convention on this side. Then there was a gay convention on that side. On the gay side, everybody was happy and dancing

and telling their story and dancing through their tears. On this side, the women were crying, and they were so sad. And I said, ladies, you need to go over there to the gay side. and see them dance through their tears. You know, and oh, I just learned so much that people, hate is a learned thing, but it's really just the twin to love. And most times the people that hate on gay people so much,

it's like I want to say, you need to pick up a mirror. You might be gay, because you couldn't be spending this much time hating gay people if you weren't afraid of it. Or maybe you just need to get to know some gay people. Know somebody who's different. Maybe you need to read some of these books that people keep trying to ban

so that you can understand more about people in general. Education is an amazing thing. It can heal so many wounds. Ignorance. Ignorance will make you do some crazy things like doubt every truth somebody tells you. Because you can only be ignorant to continually believe volumes of lies. That's the only way that happens.

You don't know it any better, or it's worse. You do know better, but you refuse to do better. That is the greatest sin of all. That is well said. I mean, I was going to say at some point it's a choice, isn't it? You have the information.

you know the truth, and now you're choosing to be ignorant, you're choosing to hate. And then that's where you've got a real problem. That's where you've got a real problem. Yeah. Yeah. We blur the lines for ourselves until we no longer know what the truth really is. Good for you for being so strong on this and speaking out about it the way you do,

and you're a powerful voice. Thank you. You are. I'm the little kid that wasn't chosen for a team. I'm a little kid that had to have my own team because nobody chose me. Nobody was putting me on their team. They called me ugly.

They told me I was to this, I was to that. I can't be, you can't be on our team. I said, that's okay, I have my own team. There you go. I'm thinking about the De Niro story and the climb up the mountain to wave the red flag. What has that climb been like? Here you are in this beautiful moment for you.

But you've had, it's been a climb. You've had great jobs that you've loved along the way. And people loved you in Moesha and all these different stages that you've had. But it feels like now there you are standing up there. And people are finally going, there she is. So what has that climb been like all these years? It's been rough. It's been rough.

It's like when you hear them say, I came up the rough. side of the mountain. It was not a crystal mountain. There was no crystal stair, baby. And, you know, sometimes you get to places on the mountain and it's like, you see somebody there that could help you.

And they ignore. They pull up the ladder. Oh, my God. Many times, the ladder has been pulled up. And it's just like, honestly, you know what, I have to thank, now I'm thinking about this, I have to thank them for pulling up the ladder. They did not

pull up the ladder, I would not continue to climb. I probably would not, I probably would have stalled. I probably would have not gained my own strength to carry on. And quite as it's kept, some of them never made it to the mountain. They never made it. And, you know, I always thought I was going to see them there. They're not there. They didn't make it. It's like, wow. But I made it. I'm happy, too. Yeah. sure did. Yeah. When Martin Luther King said, I have been to the mountain top and I've seen it.

I'm like, you all come on up the mountain. I see it. But you know what else I see? There's a new mountain to climb. Well, you led me to my next question. Now that you've reached this peak, what else do you have in front of you? What else do you think about? What are your, you've done so much in your career.

but there's so much time left. What else do you want to do? I love producing. I love putting great people together. Because I've learned one thing, and Quentin has learned it too. You put the best people together to do the job. You don't have too much of a hard job, because you have bought the best people together

and trust them to do what they do, the best. Bring your guidance to it. Do the best. I want to write to you. stories, do films. I want to tell the untold stories. There's still so many of them out there. I want to raise the bar of excellence and bring great people together to do greater things. Oh, yeah. Oh, I live for that. And I look at my kids and I think, yes, I want the legacy to continue. I want them to continue to climb on up and be able to say my name.

when I'm gone. Cheryl Lee Ralph. That was my mother. Yeah. You know what else they can do? Visit your star in the walk of fame. How about that? I will always be there for them to come and see me.

Isn't that cool? That's forever. You know what? I hope, maybe I should ask them. With my star, I want you to put a little hole in it so that when I pass away, I'm going to put part of me right there. Oh, I wonder if that's been done.

I like that. A little memorial. A little memorial. That's dark. Let's not talk about that. You still got some time. Wait a minute. We don't know.

We know nothing. I believe I have years ahead of me. I will be 105 years old and still having a great time. But people don't like to talk about end of life as if they think it's going to last forever. I'm like, you know what? Get a will. Get a trust. plan for your end of life.

It's like I tell people when they're getting married. Pre-knop, baby. Plan to the best of your ability. Plan. Don't plan for disaster. Plan for a great end. Why not? These things happen.

It's like I tell people all the time, talk to your children about sex or your daughter doesn't come home pregnant. Right. Talk to your children. We don't want to do these things. We must do them. I'm in that right now.

I have a 14-year-old son. My wife's like, you need to go sit down with him. And we do. You must. We do. And it's like, don't make them ever feel embarrassed about the questions and the things that they say to you. They want to know, and you are their best teacher. You're the best, especially if you want them to learn from you.

You don't want them to learn from other people because sometimes they learn those lessons and they're not the right lesson. Especially with the phone and the internet. Come on now. They can find anything on the phone. No, honey, that's not how you do that. No. Tell me. It's true.

That's true. True. True. Sherley, Ralph, I can talk to you all day. Thank you. And me with you. I've so enjoyed this. Thank you so much.

And congratulations on your massive success over all these years, but particularly with this show. It's wonderful. Thank you. Abbott Elementary forever and ever. Amen. My big thanks again to Cheryl for a great conversation. You can check out Abbott Elementary on ABC Thursdays now in its third season,

and by the way, already renewed for a fourth. My thanks to all of you for listening again this week. If you want to hear our conversations every week, be sure to click follow so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune in to Sunday today every weekend on NBC. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down Podcast. Thank you.