Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - Shonda Rhimes

Episode Date: May 7, 2023

On this week's episode, Willie sits downs with one of the most successful forces in Hollywood: Shonda Rhimes. Discussing everything from her first hit Grey's Anatomy to her most recent project, the Bridgerton spinoff, Queen Charlotte. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks as always for clicking and listening along. Got one I think you're really going to like this week with one of the icons of Hollywood. Shonda Rhymes. She, of course, is the queen of the Shondaland Empire, which began in 2005 with Grey's Anatomy, a show she created and wrote. It was really her first TV job, and she built something that is now entering its 20th season. Since then, she's gone on to the spinoff private practice scandal, Bridgerton,

and now a spinoff from Bridgerton that's streaming now on Netflix called Queen Charlotte, a Bridgerton story. She is fascinating, is Shonda Rhyme. She grew up the youngest of six children in Chicago. You'll hear her talk about being a shy kid who sort of played in the kitchen pantry and created these scenes and moved characters around, went on to Dartmouth and just got a passion for creating and for being a writer and went out to Hollywood where she struggled like so many people do. She started writing some movies here, there, and then had this great epiphany while she was writing a

movie during 9-11. Like, what am I doing with my life? What do I want my legacy to be? And from there, she turned to television and started with Grey's Anatomy. And the rest is history. She recently signed a deal, a multi-year deal with Netflix, reported to be worth $100 million. dollars. She is truly one of the most prolific and powerful people in entertainment and in our culture. She has created so much over the last 20 years of what we know and love on television, in movies, and streaming. So I think you're really going to enjoy our conversation. A little bit of background. Shonda and I got together at this kind of a tea shop downtown in New York City. We're trying to set the Bridgeton vibes because they're talking about Queen Charlotte.

But there's some tea out, some little finger sandwiches on one of those towers. You ever seen those at a tea shop? I can't say either of us touched any of the finger sandwiches. Or did we even have a sip of tea? I can't remember. But at least it's a great conversation. Right now with Shonda Rhymes on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Shonda, it's great to meet you.

Thank you for doing this. I'm happy to be here. We have to point out the obvious that we've sort of recreated some Bridgerton for you here, which is why we're sitting with tea and finger sand. sandwiches and sort of old Victorian chairs. Very Bridgeton. Do you feel at home a little bit? I feel like I might be on a set in that way.

But yeah, it's kind of great to be in a real sort of Bridgeton space. Feel free to snack away, you know, just, you know, nothing better than the interview when we're both eating. Putting things in our mouths. So let's talk about Queen Charlotte. I was just telling you, I saw the first couple of episodes. I mean, people are going to love it. The Bridgeton fans are, I mean, they're going to just gobble it up. So let's talk first about what it is, which is.

is a prequel. It's a spinoff, but it's a prequel to the story of Queen Charlotte, who was a real person. Yes, who was a real person. But really what I did was make a prequel based on the Queen Charlotte that we know from Bridgeton, because it's sort of how did she become the woman that we created for that show. And I got to ground it in a lot of facts about the real Queen Charlotte, but really it's not, I would say it's not a history lesson. It's fiction based on fact. Which you're so good at. You make it entertaining. There is history. I don't want to give away too much. But the journey or the way she becomes queen is it's true based in historical fact. And you almost can't believe this teenage girl from across the sea gets plucked out of kind of nowhere.

And chosen to marry a man she's never met. Right. Yeah. Right. And how long was she at the castle before she was married? I think in the real world it was about six hours. Six hours. Yeah.

Yeah. She gets to the castle. They marry her off that evening. So let's talk about for Bridgeton fans. where we find Queen Charlotte and where we find this series. Where do we pick her up? Well, I love the fact that we're meeting her when she's young, but we're also really exploring the Queen Charlotte that we know from the Bridgeton era.

So I always call it Bridgetton Time and Queen Charlotte Time. But the Bridgeton Time, Queen Charlotte that we know, she also has a real inner story going on that you don't necessarily ever get to see in the Bridgeton world. You know, in the Bridgeton world, we're always seeing sort of her forward-facing, you know, regal personality. But in this world, we really get to see her in-depth and personal and dealing with her own family, which I love. And then we get to go back and see her before she was all the amazing things she is and watch her grow into that. So I'm so curious, and I think people watching will be too, given your track record of success, how you decide, here's the next project. Let's take this character and build out a story around her.

How did you come to this idea? You know, it's interesting. I was fascinated with the character of Queen Charlotte from the moment we started filming. Golda, who plays her, is incredible. And I just thought, like, she's the Beyonce of her day. So I was just fascinated by her. And then, you know, Ted Sarandos, who runs Netflix, called me up and said, why don't we make a show about Queen Charlotte?

And I immediately said, yes, because I could see it. It felt very exciting to me to go backwards. Beyonce is the queen of our time. So it's appropriate, right? Just fabulous and glamorous. in all of those things, but also a complicated character now that we see the backstory to it. Yeah. There's a lot going on as she's thrust into this world.

It's a difficult transition to say the least. Yeah. It's a world that she doesn't know at all. The real Queen Charlotte, I don't think even spoke the language, but it's a world she doesn't know at all. And she's sort of trying to adjust. And, you know, we add the complication of the fact that she doesn't really look like any of the members of society and what that means for her. Yeah, and that's a great piece of this, which is she's entering a world, not just that she's from a foreign place and doesn't know any of these people,

but the fact that she is completely different from them in almost every way. Yes. How do you play with that as you have you done before? You know, we had so much fun with that because it was really great to insert somebody into this very stiff world who didn't know any of the rules and wasn't expecting it to be what it was. So to watch her fight against that and to sort of come to her own in the midst of that and watch society change because of it was really fun to get to play with. One of the things you're so good at and famous for is finding talent. You want to find new faces.

You've always talked about there are these great stage actors that deserve to be recognized. And India, who plays Queen Charlotte, she's done a bunch of other work, but this surely will catapult her somewhere else. why was she the right person for this character? She just was, I mean, it was interesting. Like watching the reads, watching everybody auditioned, she just defined the character in such a specific way. And she has such range.

That's what I love. Like, she wasn't trying to play the Queen Charlotte that we know from Bridgeton. She really took the time to think about what that person started out as and how to make that work in there. And then also build in, you know, her transition. She just was a talented, talented actress. What is the fun of Bridgeton to you? I know what it is as a viewer, and so to millions of other people who've loved the original Bridgetton series and will love this as well.

But you read the books and you said, I gotta make a TV show about this. What was it about those books? You know, I love the books because they were fun. I've not read a ton of romance novels, but they were fun and they were intelligent and they were sexy and they were romantic. And I could see myself in them. And I always think that anything that feels that universal can be something that everybody can see themselves in. And so that was part of what started it. I wanted the fun and I wanted the corsets and the balls and all of that.

And I love the fact that for these women, the marriage mart is their workplace. I mean, that's where they have to go and succeed. So in a weird way, it's a very different kind of workplace drama. Yeah, I guess you could say that. And it's funny because the characters as you build them, you were saying that you didn't really appreciate, you knew it would be fun. But until the popularity of Bridgeton was apparent and exploded, you didn't know how much people really love romance novels.

Yeah. I wasn't expecting it in any way. I just thought we're making a show that I really like to watch. And I got to edit it all during the pandemic. So I got to spend a lot of time with the show working with the editors. And I just thought it's great. It'll be fun. It never occurred to me that it would be, I don't know what it was, like 82 million households

in like a weekend or something crazy like that. Yeah. Yeah. And so put your finger on that. What is it about this series and these characters? I think there's a huge amount of wishful fulfillment and joy at a time, especially when people need some wishful fulfillment and joy, need to escape their world. There's an escapist quality to it, but it's also very relatable because those women feel like women we would know. I love listening to you talk about sort of your guiding philosophy to making a show, which is it's something you'd want to watch and something that's entertaining, which sounds so simple.

We have to be reminded of sometimes. Are people going to enjoy this? Are we invested in the characters? I mean, I know that when I watch television, I want to enjoy it. I want to have fun watching it. I don't necessarily want to get a history lesson or feel like the story is grim. You know, it's much more important to me to watch something that lets me escape life for a little bit and to enjoy it. Be thoughtful about it and learn something, but still not feel like that's the point. And in this case, as you said, you've tucked some history into this. It's a little bit of medicine with the sweetness, right? And it was fun to play with that history. You know, that history is really, fascinating when you really delve into Queen Charlotte and King George. That story is incredible in real life. Yeah, I told you, I was reading about it after watching the episodes and her story is amazing and then their story is amazing. It's happening during the American Revolution.

Yeah. And they have 15 kids together or something like that. Yeah, they have 15 kids, 13 survive. So how much, so do you do a deep dive on those characters and then sort of pick out the pieces that will make good television? Yeah, you know, I did. I did a deep dive on who the kids were, what their lives were like. There's a whole bunch of the daughters who never ever married. And there's, it's fascinating because they all, unlike Charlotte who got to have, who had to be married at 17, they all wait until the absolute last moment to consider getting married. They're not interested in any of that. So they're living kind of a free life that they get to have because they're royal that she never got.

Hey guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Stick around to hear more from Shonda Rhymes right after the break. Welcome back now more of my conversation with Shonda Rimes. The humor in it is always great. The older Queen Charlotte, she's got all these like deadbeat, layabout kids.

They're all very beautiful and non-functional, as I like to say. And they're darling, and they're funny. They're really funny. And Golda brings a humor to everything as the queen that I just, some of it I don't expect, and then it just flows there and it's fantastic. It's funny.

You watch those scenes from 17, whatever it is. And they could be modern kids. They're kind of laying on the couch. They might as well have phones in their hands. Right. Exactly. That's the only difference if they had phones in their hands. So is it true that now, because of the success of Bridgeton, there will be a book about Queen Charlotte as well, an accompanying book that comes out with it as well? Yeah. You know, what it was interesting was the books are originally written. The Bridgeton books are written by Julia Quinn, this amazing romance novel author, who like is a god in the romance world to our fans. And I thought, like, I created the story of Queen Charlotte.

But I loved the idea of working with her to then sort of work backwards and create a book out, you know, not out of the TV series, but inspired by the work that we did in the TV series. You just keep coming up with ideas. It's kind of amazing. But it was fun. It was really fun to get to work with her. And it was something I'd always wanted to do. So the collaboration was great. And she'd created the underlying, you know, character.

So it made sense. Your process is something that's been studied because people want to grow up. to be Shonda Ron someday. Let's take this as an example, Queen Charlotte. You're the creator. You're going to do some writing, I assume. How do you start? Like, what's day one of this process? So for me, a lot of it is doing some research into the world, whatever that world is. But for Queen Charlotte, it was really reading about Charlotte and George. I got to visit Q where they lived, you know, a lot of that stuff. But then what was really good for me is what I always try to do is, can I picture any scenes? Are there any scenes that I can picture just from the start?

And I try to write those scenes. And then I fill in the story around those scenes. Because sometimes you think something's a great idea, and then it just falls flat. You know, and you have to let it go. But I only know to let it go after I've written some scenes. So even you sitting there in your pajamas sometimes have writers' block? I don't have writers block. It's just sometimes I write something and it's just bad.

And I think, like, no, nobody wants to watch this. That's going to be a relief to so many writers. Even Shonda Rhymes has bad days. We should go to throw out pages. Every writer has bad days. Bridgerton, season three, do we know anything about when that's coming back, when that's happening? We just finished filming it. And we're in the post-production process now.

I don't think we have a release date yet. Okay. We're not going to make any announcements. No. It's coming. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.

That was, of course, your first endeavor for Netflix. Your first scripted endeavor for Netflix was Bridgeton. And boy, did you come out with a book? bang. Was it important to you that the first thing you did, because there was so much attention on the deal you signed with Netflix, that it was a hit? Did you feel sort of that pressure to deliver? I don't know if I felt the pressure to make it a hit. Because once you start focusing on the outcome, you never get anywhere. But I really did feel pressure to do something that I would be proud of, that we all be proud of to work on. And it felt important to me that the first story we told

be positive and entertaining and also complex. And to get to work. with all of the amazing craftspeople who work on the show, who did the production design and the wardrobe design. That was amazing for us. And is it exciting then? You put that thing out in the world to first try it, net for life. Let's see how it goes. And then to see, as you said, 85 million people around the world,

all these different countries, whatever the number was, respond almost immediately like that. And to have it become, and it's in the cultural bloodstream, people are talking about it. It was shocking. I mean, I don't think I'd ever had the experience of having something that was released all over the world at the same. same time. You know, usually with, you know, other television shows, it was in this territory,

that it was in this territory. But everybody saw it at once, which was amazing. And the responses were heartening to say the least. Yeah, no, it must be an incredible feeling to get off on that foot. I love what you said, too, about Netflix going there was part of the appeal was that Ted Sarando, so you mentioned others were kind of just let you do your thing. Yeah. You weren't going to, there wasn't going to be somebody over your shoulder all the time. Yeah, there was no pressure. And it felt like, you know, I always say Netflix is at its heart a startup. And so they behave like it's a startup, which means their first instinct is to say yes and then figure out how it can be done. What's very different from a place like, you know, a network television show or a network place, they're an institution.

They've been there for a really long time. And their plans are already set. So you kind of have to work with them to get them to yes. Right. Like how does this fit into the schedule? Is that going to work on Thursday night? Yeah. None of that is applies here.

None of that exists. Yeah. It's kind of wonderful. And do, because I've heard this from other people who work at Netflix, who work with Netflix, creatives, they really do kind of leave you alone. They've hired you because they trust you and go do your thing. Is that about what it's like? They're incredibly supportive in that way. I do feel like we're not, like no one's looking over our shoulder. No one's sort of telling us what we can and cannot do. They're very supportive of figuring out the things we want to do and how to make them work. And that's fantastic. We were just talking about our mutual Chicago roots. Yes.

And I loved reading that Shandaland, which everybody knows what that means now, your incredible empire of shows actually started for you as a kid back then, meaning Shandaland was this place where you could go and be creative and make up worlds. Yeah. And escape a little bit. It was definitely an escape. And it was definitely like a way of channeling all of my creativity, but also all of my insecurities and all the,

I was very, very shy. And all of those things, I got to sort of channel into a place called chondaland where none of that needed to exist. You were the youngest of your siblings, right? And the youngest of six. And you grew up outside Chicago, a little bit south of town. Yes, south suburbs of Chicago. Yeah. And so what was that childhood like for you? It sounds like happy family life, but a little bit shy and maybe not as social at school. Is that fair? Exactly. I think, you know, I was a very introverted kid, even in my family. But my family was so full of people who, you know, were excited about what I was doing or there was so much going on and it was very fun to be in my family, I felt like. And that made it kind of easier. And what I loved most is that

my parents didn't say, okay, you need to stop being this introverted girl and do these other things. They got it. They were like, she wants to play in the pantry, you know, fine. We'll let that happen. Versus them, you know, I feel like they already have raised five. So they were pretty well-versed in what to do, but they were so supportive of all of that, which turned out to be a great thing. I'm glad you mentioned the pantry because my favorite production of yours ever is not Graz Anatomy or private practice, any of those. It's recreating Watergate with canned goods in your pantry. What does that even mean? You know, it was funny because for me, the pantry was this like, it was like a closed, cozy space,

but it also had, my mother had canned goods everywhere. And like the cans of tuna were like, I don't know, I would say like the cans of tuna were like soldiers. And the cans of tomato paste were the AIDS. And the big, giant cans of yams were the important people. It was very interesting to me how it worked. And I spent a ton of time building that life up. And my mom would knock on the door and say, I need some vegetables. And I would have to decide who was going to, like, die so that she could make dinner. That's amazing. But she was listening to the Watergate hearings, and you were sort of playing with those as well. I fully absorbed Watergate. I think it was maybe three or four or something,

but I fully absorbed Watergate because she had this little black and white TV that she'd brought to the kitchen, and it was on all day, you know, every day. And I started playing with politics things. And then, yeah, my stories became a little bit more political than Knights and Queens, yeah. Netflix just picked up that series. We just got word. You in the pantry with the cans. Yes. Very interesting world. Straight to series. So that's sort of a young girl with an imagination and some creativity that her parents fostered, which is so beautiful. And at what point did you start thinking to yourself, this is something I might be able to do. with my life. Maybe not making money in a career, but like this is something people do and

maybe I could do that too. I was always writing. Like I have piles and piles of journals. So I was always writing something or dictating stories into a tape recorder or all those things. But I never really realized that I could be a writer in the beginning. Like at first, I wanted to be a doctor. I wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to work in politics. All of those things, which I finally realized, no, I don't want to do any of those things. I just want to write about them because it's much more fun to build the world yourself. And so I did. But I didn't really realize that even television writing was a job. I was graduated from college and I wasn't sure what I was going to do and I was really depressed about it. And it never occurred to me that television writing was a career.

You know, it just wasn't something that I knew anything about. I thought I wanted to be Tony Morrison. I thought I wanted to write like these deep, amazing novels. And no, I don't really. You know, that's not me. But once I sort of got to film school, which I went to just because I was, I didn't know what else to do with my life. I really realized how much I loved writing and writing TV shows. So it wasn't until USC at Dartmouth. That wasn't on the radar yet. No, I did a lot of theater at Dartmouth, directing a lot of plays, and I was a creative

writing major. But it just never occurred to me that television was a career. So the light goes on at USC at film school. Yeah. You graduate from film school. What were some of those early jobs? What was the struggle like at the beginning? It was hard.

I mean, I really was sort of there. I'd finished school, tons of student loans, totally broke. And I got jobs, you know, I got a job as an assistant at a production company for a while, and that was good. I got a job working at a place to help them mentally ill unhoused, find job skills. You know, we'd learn job skills and find places to live, which had nothing to do with what I was doing. But it was a great job to have and kept roof over my head. I tempt relentlessly as people's assistants all over town. It was fun, but it wasn't, you know, there was a point where I was like, I have to leave here.

And I happened to sell a script that week. Which script was it, do you remember? I wrote like a romantic comedy called Human Seeking Same. And it was about an older woman who falls in love with the younger man by answering the wrong personals ad, which wouldn't happen today because of Twitter and all that stuff. But what was great about it was it was it sold. They didn't make it. And then it sold again. And they didn't make it.

And then it sold again. which just allowed me to have enough money to stay and keep plugging away at the dream. You're like, I'm fine if you don't make it. Just keep selling it. Yeah, I didn't even know that was a thing that they could do, but it was and it worked great for me. That is so amazing. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to in your business who've had that moment where they were on the brink of it's not going to work. I'm going to go back home. I'm going to go to law school. I'm going to figure it out. Then something happens that day or that week. It's incredible. I had applied for and I don't know if I'd agreed to go yet, but I don't know if I'd agreed to go yet,

I had applied for had been accepted to like that post-bacalliate year you can take to get ready for medical school. Really? Yeah. I was like, that's what I'm doing. I'm going to stop doing this and I'm going to go do that. There's a turn. I know. There's a turn.

From temping in Hollywood to med school. Yeah. Why not? Yeah, I thought this isn't working for me. I have to do something else. But then you do sort of, you start working a little more regularly once that script sells a few times. Yeah. I start, you know, I wrote introducing Dorothy Dandridge with Hallie Barry in it.

And I wrote a couple of. of other things. I wrote Crossroads, which starred Britney Spears, which was incredibly fun to make. And then I really started thinking about television. You know, I became a mom and I really started, like, first of all, I wasn't going anywhere suddenly. And I was watching a lot of more television. I realized this is where all the character development is really happening. It's kind of fantastic there because you can stay with a character for as long as it takes for them to become who they need to be versus a movie when you have like an hour and 45 minutes max. Right. And there's a story, you can tell me if it's two or not, that you were in Vermont, like,

you had rented a house to do some writing. And while you were there, 9-11 happens. The day after I arrived. The day after you got there. And it sort of caused this, I don't know, reassessment or epiphany of what's really important to me. What do I want to do with my life? Yeah, I was like, if the world ended tomorrow, I would not be satisfied with what I have

done. And it was a real moment of really understanding that. And I went home and I did the one thing that I'd always wanted to do, which is I adopted a baby and became a parent. So it was clearly not just a pre-examination. professional epiphany. It wasn't. It was a real personal epiphany. And it also, I think, changed the direction of my writing a lot. How did that change? How did being a mother change the way you looked at your career? Well, you know, in the beginning, I was still felt like we were really, I was really hustling.

And I did a lot of writing with a baby strap to my chest, you know. But what was great was, it gave me something to come home to that was meaningful versus, you know, just living in the world of work or living in the world of these imaginary characters. It gave me a focus that living was also just as important, much more important. It gives you a little perspective, right? A little context for what's really important. Yeah. So then that road that you had set yourself on, that focus brings you to Gray's Anatomy. Yeah. And the idea for that show came from what? What did you find so fascinating about the world of hospitals and doctors and nurses. Well, obviously, I liked medicine.

Like, I liked the world of medicine. I thought I was going to become a doctor at some point. And then it was more about, I would watch all those surgery shows that they used to have on television, where they would remove tumors and do all kinds of things, and you'd get to watch the whole thing. I was fascinated by those. Yeah. And so I also was smart.

I said, like, what does Bob Eiger, who runs ABC? What does he want to see? And they were like, he's always really wanted a medical show. And I was like, well, that fits me perfectly. Like that world, that's something I'm interested in, it's something I want to write about. But I wrote a world of a medical show. I wrote a medical show that's not what other people were thinking of as being, like, correct medical shows. It didn't take it too seriously.

And it wasn't about the patients. It was how the doctors felt about the patients. It was about their lives. But it turned out to be really fun. I mean, I can't believe that we're in season 20. Unbelievable. Yeah. Can you believe that?

No, truly. I really can't. I mean, you never could have imagined that, obviously. I mean, my daughter is 20, and the idea that the show is as old as she is, is in, it's insane to me. Like, that's something that's endured in a way. It's the longest running medical show. It's just, it's so surprising that my first TV show was that. People don't realize how hard it is to write it, even write one pilot, and then to get it made.

Yep. And then to have it picked up. Those are all like lightning strikes in Hollywood. Yes, those are all giant steps that, yeah, you have to be really lucky. to get there. So what was it like to get the phone call that Gray's Anatomy, this show you dreamed up, had been picked up? That was exciting because it meant I was going to get to continue writing the world and enjoying those people who I, you know, was working with all the crew members, all the cast members. It was exciting. But then it was a real wake-up call because suddenly I was, I've been writing at home in my pajamas. And now suddenly I am at an office with writers who are looking to me to tell them what we need to do and 300 crew people. who are just waiting to build and create what we need. It was a lot of responsibility.

Stressful? It was very stressful. I came into a world that I'd never worked before. So to run a television show when you don't know anything about the world of television was it was great because I didn't know the rules. And so I broke them frequently. But it was also terrifying because there was so much stuff I just didn't know and didn't even know I needed to know until maybe you're two or three.

So you're just learning on the job. I learned on the job. Basically while trying to keep sort of the, authority of knowing what you're doing, right? Or at least projecting that to your crew and your actors. You know what I did that I thought was really helpful for myself, which I didn't realize until later was sort of the way to go, but it was what I knew how to do, was I would just admit that I didn't know something and say, who can teach me about that, versus trying to pretend I knew everything, which is always a dangerous game to play with people who really know it. Yeah, they'll see

three quick. But they were all really supportive because I was perfectly willing to sit down with them and learn. At what point, Shonda, do you realize we've got a hit on our hands? Was there an episode? Was there a moment where you said, I think this is working? You know, when we tested the show, it tested at like 99% positive rating, which was super rare. And I still didn't know what that meant, or if that was really good or was going to turn into something. Then the show aired, and every week the ratings were growing. So that by the time, I think we had episode five on the air. I really understood that like, oh, this is a show that might go into another season and might be bigger than I thought it was. I mean, even a great show, some of the best shows we can both

think of from our childhoods and later, 10 seasons feels pretty good. And then the actors kind of go, that's enough or the audience gets tires up, but no matter how great it is. How do you explain 20 seasons? How do you explain the longevity? You know, I think a lot of it comes down to the characters and the actors who played them, who are super compelling, and the fact that we brought people in and out so that we kept the hospital fresh with new characters. Helps. But I also think there's something really beautiful about the life and death world that they were playing in that's really fascinating for people.

You're seeing people at their most vulnerable, and we're telling stories that really circle around that. I think that's something that everybody can relate to. And then you've got the spinoffs, right? Here comes private practice. And then you expand and expand at ABC says she's got some magic touch, scandal, how to get away with murder, all of that. And you're now, you own an entire night of the week and then some. Yeah.

What was that like to say Thursday nights or yours, Shonda? That was a really surreal moment. Like I remember standing on stage at this, they have this thing called the up front where they present the shows. And I remember standing on stage with Viola Davis and thinking, I couldn't have imagined this five years ago, three years ago. It was insane, but also really, really great. It was a sense of really accomplishing something. In the scope of your life, it wasn't that long. I mean, I think 2005 grade starts.

And then, you know, it's not that much time where this sort of, I keep using the word empire, for lack of a better term, is built pretty quickly. How did you manage that side of it where, okay, now everybody knows your name, now you have a reputation, everybody wants to work with you. You're well-known in the country now. Did you, as someone who's, by your own admission, was a little shy growing up, what was it like to become a public figure? At the beginning, I have to say, I found it horrifying. I really did. I just didn't understand. I can't name another television writer who people know by looking at them. You know, like, that was the thing. I was like, all the other writers get to be anonymous. And to me, it felt really awful that I didn't get to be anonymous. I was like, the actors are the people you're really supposed to be looking at. And still, something happened. I don't know what it was, but something. something happened and suddenly everybody knew who I was and I would be in the grocery store or I would be

someplace else and people would want to come up and talk about the shows. In the beginning, it really frightened me. Now I really appreciate it. But in the beginning, I was like, what's happening? My privacy is gone. And not even my privacy, just my inability to cope with like big social situations was now a problem. People come up and pitch you ideas still in the grocery store. Luckily, no. Like pitching ideas is a thing that doesn't happen, which is great. One of the great things you've done too in all these shows, almost every one of them, is put women forward as the lead characters. That's a concerted effort, obviously. Why was that so important to you in every one of these shows?

We could go down the list. I mean, starting with Grays, it really was this idea that I didn't see any kind of women that I knew on television. People were wives and they were mothers, but they were either just that or they were working women and they could do that. But I didn't see any women who were fully rounded in three-dimensional, who got to be selfish, who got to be powerful, who got to be greedy, who got to be loving in the same way that you see male characters doing it. And to me, I just wanted to see people who were like the people I knew. And I think that's what women say. It's like, yeah, I know all those women.

Yeah. I haven't seen them before, but here they are. Fully realistic three-dimensional women was, that was important to me. And it kept, you know, I'm a woman, and I see things from that perspective. So a lot of what I was writing was really that. I mean, Olivia Pope was because I could recognize that woman and wanted to know about her. Ellen, Pompeo, Carrie Washington, Viola Davis, we can go down the list of just huge talents that you've been able to work with. And I imagine the ability as your success grew to get Viola Davis to come do a TV series with you was because of your reputation, because of the success you'd had.

I know that she started out saying, like, I'm not going to do this. And then we had this wonderful conversation where Bila is very definite, knows who she is and what she wants. And she really talked about what she wanted to see from the character. And we all agreed that that was the same vision, which was great. Has it become more difficult as your world, your chandelion, has become so big and just the list of projects that you're managing at any one time to keep that impression on each one of them, the one that makes them all successful, to keep your touch on that? I think it was harder when I was at a network and therefore was literally like responsible for like 70 shows a year. That made it much harder because I was creatively responsible for those shows. Now I got to produce Bridgeton, which meant I got to work with the writers.

I got to help shape the story. I got to pick all the elements and really put my stamp on it on something that I hadn't written, which wasn't really possible before. And to get to do that was wonderful. And so that's really been an easy part of this job because it's so fun. I think I know the answer to this question, given where you are right now, but there's all this talk about network TV and the streaming world, which is kind of a settled conversation that streaming feels like the place to be anyway,

for most creatives. But has it opened a new universe to you? I heard Steven Spielberg was asked about, well, streaming's taking away from people going to the movie theaters. He said, no, no, no, no. streaming means all these directors and writers and actors who never would have had a look before a chance or a place to do what they do have a place to do it now. Do you think streaming at the end of the day has been a good thing?

I definitely think it has because it's true. The networks were sort of gatekeepers of who got an opportunity. And not that there was a problem with that, it was just not that many people could get opportunities because of how many shows they needed to have. Now with streaming, you have all of these entities that need all of the things. programming that doesn't need a time slot, it doesn't need a night, it just needs to be there. So suddenly people never would have gotten the opportunities that they're getting, are really getting seen. And I think that's amazing. Is there a downside to that sheer volume of content?

I know every day someone says, have you seen this series? No, I can't. I can't watch them all. I mean, yours obviously have all broken through, but. It's hard to keep track of what's out there now. So somebody will tell me about a show that I'd never heard of before. And I'm like, oh, I got to watch that. I'll put it on a little list. But it's true. There's so much content now that you can't follow it all. What are your favorite shows? What are you watching?

Oh, wow. I like Yellow Jackets, so I'm excited to see the next season. I'm with you on that one. I like Succession. I decided to see what happens there because they're going to finish up this year. There was so many shows that I liked. I liked Severance. I liked Ozark.

There's some great shows out there that are, you just need to discover them. Is it fun as someone who knows what it takes to make a great series to watch when I go, oh boy, that's good. Get a little inspired maybe even? It is. It's really fun. The downside is that when shows are simpler because they're for kids, I'll watch them with my kids. And my daughters will say, do not say anything because I'll automatically say, oh, this is going to end like this.

Not even thinking about them. And they're like, do not talk about it. But it's really fun. It's exciting to see your peers do amazing things that maybe I never would have thought of or accomplish something in a way I never even considered. Stick around for more of my conversation with Shonda Rhymes right after a quick break. Welcome back now to the rest of my conversation with Shonda Rhymes. Is it true that your daughters do not watch your shows?

So my younger daughters are too young. They're eight and they're nine and eleven. She's going to be mad if I call her eight. They're nine and eleven. My oldest daughter is 20 and she has never seen Grey's Anatomy. What? But you have to think about the fact that I wrote a show that's about love and womanhood and sexuality and all of these other things that all of her peers are watching. Like her mother's ideas are like out there and that's gross.

So I think there's something really healthy about the fact that she's not gross. It's cool. For her, no. It's gross. Like she's like, I didn't need to know any of that from you. And so there's something kind of lovely about the fact that she's never watched the show. She actively avoids Graze Anatomy. It's hard to avoid it, by the way. I know. And she grew up on that set. So it's really funny. Like she knows all the people. She's been there a ton.

She's never seen an episode. We get her in on scandal, maybe. How to get away with murder? There's so many good ones. Well, I produced How to Get It With Murder, which was great. And so I didn't write it. So she did watch that. Okay.

Which I thought was really funny. But, yeah, she doesn't watch anything I do. That's so funny. I have to ask you because you wrote Princess Diaries, too. Yes. Right. There's been some chatter, I think even from Anne Hathaway, about a third Princess Diaries. Is that happening?

You know, I don't know. I had some conversations with them about it. I think it would be lovely to see that happen. I have no time to be involved and I'm exclusive with Netflix. But I think that the idea of telling that story forward would be great. I loved that. I mean, Julie Andrews was amazing. It's why I love the chance to write dialogue that she said. And then to have that happen on Bridgeton and Queen Charlotte as well was amazing. So it's kind of a full circle thing for me. But yeah, I would love to see Anne do that again. It sounds like she wants to. Yeah. Good to see. So last question. You are still a young woman. You've got a lot ahead of you. You've done so much already.

What's out there that in your mind and your creative brain that you still want to do that you haven't done yet? I think someday I'd like to write a play. You know, I really love the theater. I'm always amazed by it. And I've always wanted to sort of delve in that world. And so someday I think I'd like to write a play. Try it in my hand at that. You're in the right town.

I know. We can dial that right up for you. Not yet, but at some point. Shonda, thank you so much for the time. This was really fun. Thank you. This was a great conversation. Now we can eat our finger sandwiches.

Exactly. We can dig right in. My big thanks again to Shonda for a great conversation. You can check out Queen Charlotte, a Bridgeton story, streaming now on Netflix. And my thanks to all of you for listening again this week. If you want to hear my conversations with our guests every week, be sure to click follow. So you never miss an episode. And of course, don't forget to tune in to Sunday today every weekend on NBC.

I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast.