Sunday Sitdown with Willie Geist - Sylvester Stallone on "Tulsa King," "Rocky" and a Lifetime of Fighting Back (September 2025)

Episode Date: September 20, 2026

From Rocky to Rambo to his latest hit Tulsa King, Sylvester Stallone has spent decades defying the odds. Long before Hollywood stardom, he was a struggling actor in a New York apartment, writing the script for Rocky that would change his life. In this Sitdown, Stallone reflects on the hardships that fueled his drive, why he refused to let anyone else play Rocky, and how receiving the Kennedy Center Honors has impacted his perspective on legacy. (Original broadcast date September 7, 2025.) Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey guys, Willie Geist here with another episode of the Sunday Sit Down podcast. My thanks, as always, for clicking and listening along. Got a great one for you this week with an honest-to-goodness American icon, Sylvester Stallone. Yeah, we got Rocky, guys. We got Rambo, guys. We got the man who stars in the hit Paramount Plus series, Tulsa King in that series. Stallone plays a disgraced, kind of exiled New York mobster who was once a big shot, and the New York mob goes to jail for 25 years. And when he gets out, the mob bosses say, we're sending you to Tulsa, Oklahoma, to run a new operation out there.

And that's where the series picks up. Great part for him. And his first time in a scripted series, of course, after a legendary movie career that began with Rocky, the 1976 blockbuster and critical hit, nominated for 10 Academy Awards at won Best Picture in 1977. Famously, Stallone wrote that movie, alone, living in New York, kind of based on the underdog Rocky Marciano real life story,

but so much more than that, set in Philadelphia, where he lived for a time in real life, he wrote it himself, took it around to studios who said, we love the story, we don't love the idea of you, unknown actor, playing the lead role. They wanted famous people in it. They wanted Redford or Newman or someone like that to play the lead role. He was offered tons of money for the script, but he insisted on being the star. He hung in there and hung in there until he found a deal that paid him much, much, much less money to star in it. The rest is history. He was nice enough to invite us to his home where he spends the summer out on New York's Long Island, as you can imagine, a beautiful place. We sat out on his back porch on a beautiful late summer afternoon.

Nice breeze blowing through. Just a gorgeous spot. Couldn't have been more gracious, more welcoming, and more fun to talk to, honestly. A guy who's done and seen it all in Hollywood, in show business, and has it all in really good perspective. So let me step out of the way so you can sit back, relax now, and listen to Sylvester Stallone on the Sunday Sit Down podcast. Sly, it's great to see you. Thanks for having us. Oh, thank you, really.

My pleasure. It's the first interview here, so welcome. You look very summery, very rested, very happy. Youngest springtime, do it? Rocky made it to the Hamptons and good for him, you know? Rocky made it to the hamps. No, that isn't a dichotomy. I don't know what it is.

My God. It might be Rocky 4 after he's made it. You know what he made it? In the house and the Ferraris and all that stuff. Thank you. We'll talk about Rocky in a minute, but we've got to start with Tulsa King. Congratulations on season three. Massive hit series, the number one show on Paramount Plus.

Thank you. It's their most successful thing they've ever done. So where do we find as we enter season three? Where is Dwight and that kind of rag-pack bunch? I thought he's reached a certain level. He's now making money, this and that, but he's got ambition. And all of a sudden, an opportunity presents himself in the world of liquor, distributorship, you know, owning a distillery.

So now he's into something where he could become really formidable in the world of business. But that also comes to a lot of enemies and a lot of jealousy. because if this works, we're talking hundreds of millions of dollars. So that's the premise. And then what makes it interesting is all the ancillary enemies that are coming from all sides that want a piece. And then the FBI gets involved. So it's going to be an interesting premise. Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about this character.

We were talking of Dwight, who is from the New York mob. Right. But he's not this sort of stuart. stereotypical cliche guy. I was saying there's more Tony Soprano than some of the other guys. Sort of. What do you love about playing that character?

I love it because it's very close to my nature, and I thought, why? Because I have kind of an offbeat sense of humor, and I thought, I've never seen that. And a gangster, a gangster, always stern and unforgiving and inflexible. And Tony Soprano was perfect. I mean, he really nailed it in a way that I, But for many years, they were never going to do another gangster show.

Like with Westerns, okay, after John Winter, after Cleaning's, well, that's the end of Westerns. I went, wow, well, that was the same way with gangsters. But with Taylor Sheridan coming up with this premise of taking a fish out of water, a guy that's basically being banished to the West in the desert where he knows no one. And you have to start your life at 75 from scratch. that's interesting. Yeah, we should say for people, the few people haven't seen the show, basically you get out of jail after 25 years,

you grow up and come up in the New York Mafia, and then the boss sends you to Tulsa, Oklahoma. Yeah, exactly. And you're kind of dropped out of the sky and said, make us some money. Like Napoleon on Elba. They sent me there basically to die. Go away, fly.

Get out of here. Yeah, they put you into exile, like Napoleon. Yes, they did. You mentioned Taylor Sheridan. Yeah. People know Yellowstone and an entire world and all the shows he's created. This is your first scripted series, TV or streaming.

Right. What did it take to bring you in from the movies you've done for your entire career and say, you know what, this is the time to do a series? I've always wanted to do this character. And at my age, the opportunities were, you know, it was like diminishing returns. So when Taylor presented this,

it was an interesting concept. And then he was nice enough to let us work back and forth. I knew him when he, like riding horses. I knew him way before he became a writer. That was interesting. He was just, I wanted him actually to work with me on Rocky I've Rambo 4. Oh, really? I promised.

You know him that long? Yes. And he goes, well, I'm writing this thing called Sicario. And I went, well, okay. I had no idea that he was a writer. And, well, the rest is history. But that's how far back we go. So he remembered that.

And when he presented the idea, I go, it's great. Can we add this and add this and take this away and maybe add little humor? So we just mixed it up because the original concept, he was pretty hard criminal. Yeah. And I thought, we kind of give him sort of a sense of humor and sort of a sense of pathos. Like he's lost everything, his wife, his family. So the audience feel, oh, I can understand that. So he was very human.

What is the Taylor Sheridan thing, if you can articulate? It's like working with any great director or creator. There's something when I see it, I think I know that it's a Taylor Sheridan. He goes right down the middle. You know, you have this elitist, and then you have a really base kind of writing, like blue, yellow, off sexual, whatever you want to call it. He's in like the middle earth that has been forgotten for a long time, you know. And he just, it's been so long.

I think it's only been from the 60s and in the 50s, when all these shows, all these westerns, and it appealed to a certain kind of mentality. It's just, wow, it's Americana, sort of relatable. It's a good old soap opera, you know, it kind of, it's easy to follow, that kind of thing. And it wasn't, there wasn't a lot of message in it. It was just people behaving like people.

And it just, you know, it's timing. It's always timing, really. You know what I mean? It's just people have been kind of removed from that sort of writing and acting, and certainly that visual, like the West. And he brought the Western back. And you can see there was a great hunger for that. And then it actually appealed to the East and West Coast, too.

So it became a massive hit. But that's where he, if you notice, everything that's been successful, he goes right for the middle earth. Yeah. And it doesn't hurt. Nothing in New York, nothing in California. It doesn't hurt to have a Slice Stallone or a Kevin Cost or Harrison Ford. He attracts starts, right?

Yeah. He's very smart that way, too, because he finds people that have been around a long time, and they're kind of identified with that character. He took me and said, okay, you're going to be a librarian. That's not going to work. I think you're kind of a thug, so you're perfect casting. You also write on the first. this show. You wrote the first episode of this new season. I know you spend your days here

writing at your desk. God, it's torture. What do you love about it? I don't know anything about it. I really don't. If you notice, every writer looks like Igor. I've never seen like, hey, Tom Brady, a writer. No, you don't see that. You see that little creepy guy with his foreheads back here, think glasses, unshaving, cigarette burns. That's not. the writer. You know what I mean? Look at it. Like Simon Rusky is the classic look of a writer. Yeah. It was like one eye here. It's torture. See, I get up and I literally feel like I'm nauseous. Your head is spinning. Well, you know, you're right. Yeah. You go into a fog. So it's very difficult to have any sort of normal relationship where the writer, they're freaky.

They're like brain dead cats. You just don't know what they're going to do. And you say this from a place of love. I see it from love. I live it. This is my world. And I go, I look at writing and I want to eat the script. I go, ah! You know, because it doesn't stop.

Taylor or any writer yourself, when you're on the case, it's 24-7. You're laying in bed. You get up. Where's my pencil? God, I got an idea. Your wife is trying to explain to her that, you know, like she liked to go and get something, you know, something really important is to go shopping and you're thinking. thinking, God, if this person cuts that person's head off in that scene, so in other words,

you're somewhere else. Yeah. And it's a terrible thing. It really is, horrible. If you could choose any profession in the arts, be a painter. Which you do as well. Yes, exactly. He's slopping around.

See, writing is, I guess, for lack of a term, linguistic math, is very precise. It's not typing. It's not chatter. Like we're conversing. Writing is very specific, good writing. And that's like, oh, God, that's memorable. That's memorable. Conversation is not memorable.

It's just, look how much we're speaking now. This would have been about 45 pages already in a script. So what do you love about it then? Despite everything you just said, is it seeing the final product? It's a goddamn thing. It's like, it just keeps pulling your back in. Because when you read someone else's writing, you go, okay. that fits that person, but it doesn't quite fit me.

So you try to design it for, it kind of like diminishes your flaws. The speech pattern is better. I cannot handle that word with four syllables. I'm going to go with this one. So you tailor it. So when I do my dialogue, it's very specific to me. And sometimes I'll juxtaposition words and actually do, you know, all these malaprops everywhere.

But that's part of the kind of my linguistics to speak like that. And I find that to be a challenge. That's my gift at writing. Specifically, scholastically, I was an abomination, really in English. And my writing was brought before the class. Like, this is how not to write. This is what an idiot writes like. But I understood dialogue.

I really understood that. And it's just, it's the only thing I really did understand. That's why I did so poorly in school. I actually think you, I have a theory, that you are an underrated writer because you are so associated with action movies and Rocky and Rambo and all that stuff. But if you look back at your career, the writing you've done, obviously Rocky stands out among all of them. But it's kind of half of who you are. You're a writer and then you go out and perform, right?

That's true. I mean, I've probably probably done 42 scripts. 43 scripts. It's a lot of scripts. So when you do a rewrite, basically you're doing a page one. It's a whole new script, but because of writer's guild rules, you know, everyone's name has to be on it. So it's been incredibly strenuous.

I always pray, God, I wish someone would drop the Godfather script in front of me. It just doesn't happen. I have never been lucky like that at all. You got to make your own luck, right? You got to make your own luck. And, you know, I try to pass that on. I think it's so important. And I'm constantly surprised that more actors have ventured into other aspects of the creative process,

like writing, producing, directing. And because I find it's so gratifying when you move outside of your safe zone, but it's also incredibly strenuous. I mean, you show me a happy director, and I'll show you a liar, you know, basically. It's a lot of work. Even though you love it, it's just, it's like the end of your private life. It's just your life is now, your reality is a fantasy world. And when you come back to this reality, you're not as gratified.

It's like, oh, I want to get back on the movie set where I control everything. It's a very addicting situation. I'm sure, and you've had it for 15 years almost. I don't want to go there anymore. I'll never direct again. Yeah, that's it. That's, oh, yeah. I just, why don't I just take a bull with him, beat myself with it, and just cut to the chase.

Jesus, it's torture. You're painting quite a picture of the movie business, between the writers and the director. My profession sucks, folks, okay? You're guaranteed 96% unemployment. Welcome. Don't do it, kids. Don't do it. Hey, guys, thanks for listening to the Sunday Sit Down Podcast.

Stick around to hear more from Sylvester Stallone right after the break. Welcome back now more of my conversation with Sylvester Stallone. I was talking about all the stars that Taylor Sheridan attracts. Sam Jackson comes in this season. What's the like working with Sam? He comes into the show and, you know, he's just a star. And it's interesting. You work with actors and then there's stars.

So as soon as he comes on and we saved him for the last couple of episodes, tremendous elevation. It's like football. You know, you have a great quarter, but then you get the best receiver in a word. You go, okay, now it's on. It's going to be really special. So he comes on.

He's an affiliate of mine. First he shows up. He wants to murder me. Like twice in one day, I go, let's try to bury this hatchet. And we've become comrades because we've known each other for a long time. And then I think the eventual plans is for him to have his own show. Yeah. And become like the king of Nola.

New Orleans, I know. Yeah. It's just a natural thing. I mean, Taylor Sheridan, we could do King of L.A. I mean, there's, because each region has a whole different mechanism and life of its own. Like New Orleans and Tulsa, you can't. Like Jupiter and Mars. Yeah.

Not even the same solar system. And the fish out of water elements. of Tulsa for you really works. Right. New York in Tulsa. Speaking of stars in the show, your daughter. Working with your daughter?

I don't know. What is that like? Gary. Gary. Scarlett, why don't you try this? Why don't you mind your own business? Is that the dynamic even on set? No, I'm not being joking.

She's fantastic. But being a parent, you realize you're the dumbest person in her life. You're like, you don't know it. It's really quite. remarkable but the guy with a leap blower tells us yeah he makes sense right right it's just and i was the same way you always seem to find your your knowledge from other people because the

proximity of the parents are you know what i mean it's just the way i was so yeah and that's why pure pressure is so overwhelming because you get your information from your friends who are also struggling to figure it out right so but no she she's great and she's been doing this. Oh, God. She's doing impressions of me, which is pretty frightening at about four years old, like, get over here. Like, you're pounding the desk.

Am I that bad? You're worse. Did you have the Stallone snarl, kind of the whole thing? If I have, oh, I wish I could show it to you. I went, wow, am I that creepy? It's a wake-up call, right? It is. Is that me? That's me. Yeah. You know, out of the mouth of babes comes truth.

Always. There it was. Yeah. Well, that's got to be so cool. I've got a daughter, too. That's amazing. How old's your daughter? I dropped her at college five days ago. Oh, okay. So you know what I'm talking about. She's launched.

I know. She's killer, right? It is, but also I'm excited for her. You know, she's in a good place. She's happy. Yeah. I'm already getting the videos and how much fun she's having. Oh, that's great. I'm good. Good. We'll see if that lasts. As the house starts to feel a little empty, you know? I know.

Yeah. There's a missing. We have four of us. One of the wheels is off the car now, so we're trying to figure out the three of us how it works. When the kids leave, here's the key to happiness. Buy cabapoo's. We have three cabapos, and they're now our adopted hairy children. It's like, yes, my child has four legs.

They crawled in a mustache. That's the new family. Okay. We have one golden doodle, and I think we need to add one. Just to fill that void, right? We'll start with two and then you just keep you going. You get the big one, the two midgets, they're great. Good advice.

I'll pass it on to my way. Well, congratulations on Tulsa King. Great show. Thank you. People love it. Since we're in New York, I want to just go briefly back to your beginnings, because I think a lot of people sort of pick up your story with Rocky in 76, but your life, to me, is so interesting.

born in New York City, you're in and out of schools, your family situation's complicated, you moved to Maryland, then you're back to Philly. Yeah. How did all that sort of hardship mold you and form the guy you became? It's interesting to bring that up because I'm doing a book with Harper Collins because when you really think back, I think back, how did Rocky ever get made? I mean, and then I realize perhaps all this confusion and chaos and turmoil, my my life, which it really was.

It reads like a bad novel, so I made it a novel that I try to rationalize it. Instead of feeling so I had from myself, I said, maybe all this hardship and extraordinary chaos prepared me for what was coming, which is an unbelievable, difficult voyage to get this film made when you are nobody. And, you know, you, and I describe arriving in New York. When I came back to New York, you know, you have maybe $400. You don't know one person, and you're in a city of $7 million at the time. And I go, wow, that much, that, why wasn't I scared at that time?

Because that's a frightening concept. Because to me, the worst malady in the world is loneliness. And it's like, and you have no. nobody to talk to. No one to share your fears with nothing. No one to imbue you with confidence. Like, you can do it. No, nothing. So you talk to yourself. And I realize I think all the, all the embattlement of my upbringing, and it was tumultuous, to say the least, prepared me for it. And so I'm really very, it's almost, I have this real, like, let me see this, what is the word I'm looking for? It's like having your worst enemy go over a cliff in your brand new Ferrari.

It's like, I have such mixed feelings about my past. Like, was it good or a bad? Did that really help me? Did it not? And that's what the book is about. because it's been an extraordinary ride. Yeah. Yeah.

And the good feelings come later when you have some perspective, but in the moment, you not seeing that side of it. But there's also this incredible sense of emptiness because why couldn't have been, you know, like a pleasant upbringing? Why did it have to be so dark, that kind of a thing? And with my kids, I try to avoid it. And my wife is like, she's God's sin. And we've had a really wonderful life, but that wasn't the case.

But would I have been here if it was a pleasant, like the Walton's? It was like, hi, Pop, good night, sweetie. Good night, son. Ow, that kind of a thing. The Walton's, you were not. No, no. I was like the Mansons. It's like, you know, you're like, what?

So where does. the love of performance and acting come in, in the middle of all that chaos, how do you find that that's something that gives you joy? That was my relief. I didn't have friends. I just didn't know how to make friends. I was always a little off-center.

And what appealed to me was true fantasy. I was always looking for a real male role model, and I couldn't find it. It certainly wasn't around the house. And it wasn't until I went to the movie theater, but I was never into, like, real serious actors. I was into escapism, Seventh Voyages, Simbad, Hercules, these kinds of things. I think that everyone, you know, everyone on the planet has such a distinctive DNA and characteristics. I mean, it's not just their fingerprints or their difference.

There'll never be another you as a get. You never be another me. I mean, they'll be similar, but not. And it's remarkable. Even in the same family, you have five distinctly different children. You go, how is that possible? It's just the way I was made that I was into escapism and self-expression, and I would be in front of a mirror, you know, miminginging all my life.

And I never, never fit in. And I realized that when around third or fourth grade, My father was a beautician, so he had these capes that he put around women, and I took one, and I dyed it blue, and I wrote a backward S on it. And I had a pair of, like, Speedos and my skinny legs. My legs looked like two strings hanging from my waist. They're just thin. And I went to school and dressed in Superboy under my clothes. And then when I was exposed, like, teacher, you know, we have Superboy in the class. I mean, they actually put, like, a dunce cap. They really, yeah, I wore a dunce cap. Oh.

They actually did, you know, in 1956, there was dunce caps. But I almost enjoyed it. It wasn't as though I took it like, oh, wow, I'm really weird. I went, wow, everyone's looking at me, like, hey, showbiz. I was like, I was a classroom dunce. but I just didn't fit in. And so I was always being ostracized like that. And that sense of being alone is the key to my success.

I was able to be alone. Well, I'll tell you the truth. When I went to New York, when I was 23, and like I said, I knew nobody. In four and a half years, I never went to one restaurant. I never went to a club. I didn't have friends. I never went to a party.

a bar. Come on. Nothing. I went one time, it was New Year's Eve, 1970, I went to Times Square alone, and I looked around and went

every one of these people wants to be somebody. Like, you better go home and start working hard because this is your competition. I just looked around. I never saw so much

humanity in one spot, and I realized this is the competition. So the more you hit it, the more you grind, the more you sacrifice, any kind of outside stimulus, and you really focus on that one monotonous chore, and it's monotonous. That's the only way you can actually say on your deathbed at the end, okay, I didn't make it, but God, I gave it everything I had. And I think that's one of the biggest frustrations of the human race. is people never got the opportunity to compete.

Yeah. You know what I mean? It's one thing. All right, if I fail, I'll give you one little story. It was interesting. Jerry Cooney, remember the fighter? Well, there was the toughest guy in Boston. He was the hell's angel, big guy, almost 300 pounds.

And he comes into the gym because I think I have the potential to be a champion, too. And Cooney looks like to get into the ring. and rang the bell. The fight was about 11 seconds, including the count. It was, how long did it take Cooney to walk to the middle of the ring? It hit one shot. And the guy, when he came out of this fog, goes, thank you. Now I know I made the right decision to be a hell's angel

because I never would have made it as a fighter. But see, that's what I mean. There's so many people that will never know if they had it. because the opportunity is not there. And that leads to such frustration. I could have been a singer. I could have been this. I could have been that.

And it leads to just, you know, a sense of loss. Yeah. You know? So I think it's like a blessing when your expectations are pretty simple. Yeah, I don't mind. I'm working with the other guys on the conveyor belt. And it's like I'm happy. They're my friends.

And then you have people. maybe like yourself, like me, that don't know how to do that. They just have these unexc- They're almost, they're just, what I would say, I'm trying to go after something that is really so unrealistic. Right. That the chances of me making it with those kinds of aspirations were, forget a million of one, it's like, well, like in New York, It's $7 million to want or more.

Yeah. So I just don't know, we're getting back to your question, if it's my upbringing that prepared me for this isolation for years and years. But it finally paid off. When the time came, you know, you're prepared. I understood how, like, rejection, I became imperfect. I became like marble. Right.

It's just like crack and went up because I expected rejection. I didn't expect acceptance was like what yeah you like me what are you nuts you know it's like I'm so used to rejection because we are in the rejection business know that you're not in the accept you're in the no business no not today no you're not the right type no you're too tort you're too short you're too this you're too that you slur no your eyes you it's like I expect no don't disappoint me and say yes And during this time, that's so fascinating, the loneliness aspect of it. Oh, big time.

But also you're working in a movie theater. I think you're cleaning the lion cages at the Central Park Zoo. Is that true? That's true. I got the job literally in five minutes. Nobody won that job. Like, can I get a uniform because my clothes are putrid? Wow.

So that's your life, and yet you still have this dream of being an actor. And exactly what you just described tells the whole story. of how Rocky came to be, which is, I'm alone. I'm going to lock myself in a room. You famously paint the windows, so there's no distraction, block everything out. No, no phone, nothing. Nothing.

And you write the script for Rocky. What inspired you to do that? Why was that the story that was going to break through? Because, you know, after a while, you realize what, you're perceived a certain way by people. I was always perceived as a troublemaker or an outlier that I just didn't fit in. I was the kind of guy, no matter what, when I was younger, I would go to a school dance, someone. We go, what are you looking at?

What are you saying? And wham, every time, I've actually had a situation when I was on a bus, and I'm sitting in the last seat on a bus. I remember I was in New York, and the guy pulled the bus over. It was like two in the morning. It was me, the driver, and the driver and me. And he literally pulled it over on 30th Street. He goes, come on, get out. You want to do this?

I go, what do you? He goes, why are you looking at me in the rear rear mirror? I said I'm at the back of the bus. It's a mile to the front. Yet that, you know, there's always this situation where I can't even tell you how many times. it was I just didn't fit in. I don't know if I didn't want to fit in or some vibe I was giving off.

I just knew I just had a different way of living in society. I didn't mind being alone because I knew if the more I spent time talking, the more you're giving away your currency. And you only have so much in time is your currency. And I didn't want to be. to spend it, like over here and over there, this and that. I don't know where I got that from,

but it paid off. And you say, I'm going to control my own destiny here. I'm going to dictate the terms of this. I'm writing the script. Getting back to your question, so I'm perceived as kind of the troublemaker or the thug, everything I'm cast in, I'm beating up Woody Allen, I'm beating up Jack's Lemon, David Carradine, I'm always that guy. But I don't see myself. But I don't see myself. that way. I went, oh, I'm kind of like, I'm like Ferdinand the Bull. I'm not really that guy. But that's the way you perceive.

So after going through, you know, hundreds of rejections, I go, maybe that's what it is. I want to write a story about that kind of guy, but he has goldfish, he has turtles. Yeah. He's a nice guy. He can't even do his job properly. You know, he is a lone shark collector. You know, the poor guy. He just was terrible at being mean.

Yeah. And I felt that way. So it came very easy. The hard thing was finding a format. No one cares about an actor's dilemma. It's just not relatable. Yeah. A fighter is, and everyone knows like, oh, yeah, the bully kind of guy.

Okay, be the perceived bully. But also, boxing. There's two things that I think are just genetically implanted in us, racing and fighting. We're fighting for the moment we're fighting to pay our taxes, fighting to raise our children, fighting to, you know, appease the boss. And everyone's the race, race for time, jitter, just, you know, it's just they race turtles. They raise raindrops, horses, everything, butterflies. But you know, so I thought if I do fighting, it's very relatable,

because everyone can sort of relate to that, even if they're a white collar people. So, wow. Then I needed a prototype. Everyone thinks it was Chuck Weppner. It wasn't. I used Chuck Weppner because it was current. Right.

And he knocked Al Lee down. But it was Rocky Marciano. We were the same size, Italian. He was 186 pounds. I was, you know. So it was. believable. That was my prototype. And I thought, okay, this will work. Boxing, relatability, the tough guy, but he's really kind of soft and gentle inside. And the most important thing is,

he realizes he's a loser. He accepts it. I'm a bum. So when they ask him, hey, you want to fight the champion? He goes, nah, I'm really not that good. I'm a hammondager. It'd be bad fight. what character I've ever seen say that? Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. And then when I said, when I wrote it at the end, for him to lose because he won. Everyone has a different standard.

You don't have to be the first one over the finish line. It's where your goal is. I want to be at least fourth. Then you won. If fourth was your goal, so be it. Rocky knew he'll never be a power creed. So I just want to be standing. And subliminally, everyone wants to be standing on their own two feet at the end of the life saying,

I did the best damn thing I could. And that's what the metaphor was. Stick around for more of my conversation with Sylvester Stallone right after a quick break. Welcome back now to the rest of my conversation with Sylvester Stallone. How did you, given where you were in life and some of the struggles you were having, how did you have the guts, I guess, to turn down money for a studio to take it and cast, I don't know, Robert Redford or somebody else in the role? Why was it so important to you to hang on to it and that you be in the movie?

Well, superficially, it's like temporary insanity. But I had almost mastered the art of poverty. I knew what it was like. I wasn't afraid of it. But I just, I said, this is the crossroad. You're never going to have a part like this. You wrote this. You bled for this.

This is basically you slide. If you get rid of this, yes, you'll have 360 grand, which was worth a lot more back. then, but that will go. Eventually, that will be gone, and you will be the most bitter human being because the entire thing was not about selling out. It was about integrity. So I said, you know, I'm going to put it on one big role because I'm never going to find this again. I'm always going to be the third guy through the door, always a thug, always the mug, always the dumb guy. And I said, if I let this go, I'm letting my life go

because I'm never going to find this again. Never, because I know what I was offered. And it was just a, just blind faith. But you knew somewhere in your gut. It had to be this way, right? I had that, yes. There was a real long shot. I mean, I don't know why.

When people say, like, what's the secret? I'm not a big believer in miracles, but it was a miracle today and for to be a nobody. And then I didn't understand the politics at the time either. I literally had never voted. I didn't understand. And every film was politically oriented, you know, like all the president's men, taxi driver, bound for glory.

you know, all these. And Rocky. It was just, you know, it was totally like an innocent thing. You know what I mean? It wasn't trying to make a statement per se. So that's what I'm saying. It just, it would never happen today. Never.

Rocky would never be made today. No, sadly. We had Matt Damon on the show a couple of years ago. I don't know if you've heard this from him or other people, but he said in our interview, when he and Ben Affleck wrote Goodwill Hunting. They wanted to be in it, but nobody knew who they were. And every studio they went into, they wanted Brad Pitt and Leonardo de Cabrio.

And they, Ben Affleck and Matt Damon, before they went into every meeting, looked at each other, and they go, Stallone. Stop. And that's why they said, he did it. We can do it. And that was their thing. and that's why Goodwill Hunting became the launching pad for both of their careers because of you, he told me that. Oh, thank you. Wow.

So that's their rallying cry was Stallone. And just look at each other, H-H-H-H-H-Stollone. That's so funny. Yeah, so they followed your lead on that. Thank you, guys. Appreciate it. Yeah, you know, I don't know what it is. Well, it was just, I just, I don't know.

It's just maybe the way I'm built. I don't give up. You know what I mean? But more importantly, I realized I was never going to make it as an actor. I could see that was just the thug. And that's why I pivoted to writing. So that failure was really an opportunity of something. You said Sylvester Salon is going to be a writing?

He said, no, a writer? He said, no, no, no. You mean like a house painter? And I said, no, a writer. Really? No. But it was just being isolated. I would spend so much time educating myself how to write.

I'd go to the library. I'd read, I can't even tell you how many original writings from Longfellow and Emerson and Cotton Mather and Poe. I would go to the basement in the library and they had the actual writings, like the actual parchment, the paper. And that would blow my mind. I'm in a room with 52 million books. So what is your excuse? You know, you better, like, if they can do it, 52 million books.

So I'd always be criticizing myself and saying, come on, you lousy, lazy, in the mirror, because I had no one to talk so. I'd constantly be doing this self-abrasive analysis. Oh, yeah. So given the isolation and the loneliness, you're describing. I cannot imagine what it was like

to have Rocky become the hit it was more than $200 million at the box office. To have all the Oscar nominations, the wins best picture, all of a sudden, you literally are one of the most famous people in the world. How did you deal with that level of celebrity? And let's go make another one.

Let's go do Rambo and all the things that happened from there. How did you flip that switch from becoming a guy alone in New York for almost five years to one of the most famous people in the world? It was a catastrophic change. I'll say that.

And I don't think I handled it as well as I should have because there was a sense of, I told you so. And that came out. And I think it kind of alienated me with some of the press and things. And I totally understand it. When I go back and I read some of the interview, I go. And this was petrivolved.

That's all it was. It was me getting back at my, you know, childhood and saying, I told you so. I told you that kind of thing. I'm not the dumbest guy. And unfortunately, I was relating that kind of angst to strangers. And they're going, whoa, you should be dancing up and down and flying, you know, firing off rockets. What is your anger here? Yeah.

And it took me a while, 70 years to figure that out. that, okay, now I get it. It's a minor miracle. It's a privilege. And when you realize there's not that much light at the end of the tunnel, your days, you know, pretty valuable and numbered, that's when you really take, you know, I love this. When I love my children, I love my wife, because, you know, it's not going to be here forever. Everything else is really trite. Yeah.

You know what I mean? It was just to be perturbed of, you know, that old thing, don't let the small, bother you. Well, I let it bother me. You know, criticism, this and that. Like, when you read your first review, and he goes, Stallone's career is stranger than crib death. Wow.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's tough. The newest actor to crawl from underneath Brando's trench coat. I mean, the fact that I can still remember that. I was going to say, you've memorized these. That's really, and what is that?

It's really quite fascinating. You can get all these accolades. But one biting, review, or slanderous statement. And I go, what is that? Is that because you had so much of that your whole life? And it just, it triggers you. Is that what it is? Because words, you know, words don't mean anything unless they're true.

I used to believe that. That's BS. They hurt. They're bullets. Yeah. They really are. The modern version of that is social media. You post something.

You have a thousand flattering comments and you find the one. One. You suck. And you go, I want to go find that guy. Oh, blocked that. Why does it, what did I do wrong to that guy? Yeah. Why don't you say that to my face?

I know, I know, I know. But I think that's the sense. I don't know if it's everybody. but I know in the artistic world, it's devastating because I think most actors, because they're going to hate me for this, are not complete individuals. And that's not a negative is what I'm saying is they have this void inside and the acting fills that void. It's like, okay, I have my character, but I feel more at home, sometimes playing someone else. that's when I really shine. That's what I live for,

because I have, you know, certain angstance sorrow inside, and, you know, my life wasn't so fulfilled, but when I'm acting, I'm getting the love of strangers, you're getting adulation, and then one bastard

over here rains on your parade, and it's devastating. And it's just a phenomenon that comes from, your childhood. Yeah. You weren't imbued with all this sort of, your parents that, you know, have a thick skin and you're great and you're wonderful no matter what.

I'm with you. I love you. I'll be with, no. So it kind of brings you back down to where you used to be or where you came from. That's what it is for me. I don't know if it's for anyone else. Always proven somebody wrong. Oh, I'm telling you.

Before I let you go, Sly, I've got to congratulate you on the Kennedy's Center honors. Oh, thank you. Yeah, I know. What was that phone call like? That was from him, himself. Yeah. And I thought it was an impersonator. I go, come on. It's this my brother, you know, kind of thing. You go, no. And, oh, my God.

I thought that was never going to happen. You know, you just put that, like Oscars. I said, never going to happen. So I kind of disassociate myself from it. I don't put that on my bucket. bucket list ago. So I was startled. Really was. Now what do I do? Do I have to dance? What do I do? I can't wait to watch the ceremony. Does it get you thinking about legacy? Is it a moment for you to think about your career and how far you've come from those lonely days in New York City? Yeah, it does. It does. But I really think, you know, I don't think a lot of artists dwell on what they've done.

It's like, what's next, what's next? I want to be relevant. I want to be loved. I need something else. And when those opportunities diminish, that's why I said an artist dies twice. And the second time is the easy one. When you have this nobody wants you anymore, that's devastating. And it's not right because a lot of the actors, I got better as I got older, you know?

And then just when you really have. have developed, you have all this wealth of living life. Next. But that's just a general, what we say, the next generation has to be defined by who they like. They're not going to like your music. They're not going to like your clothes. It's just the way it is.

That's progress. Sad but true. And yet, here you are still with the number one show. Tulsa King. I'm a vowel. You know what I mean? AEI are you and sometimes why? That's me.

I'm just a vow. Well, it's working for you. Thank you. Sly, thanks for having us out. Thank you, well, appreciate it. What a pleasure to talk to you. You bet. Thank you.

Ciao. My big thanks again to Sylvester Stallone for a great conversation and for opening his home to us. It was a great day. You can check out Tulsa King streaming on Paramount Plus. And my thanks to all of you for listening again this week. If you want to hear my conversation, with our guests every week.

Be sure to click follow so you never miss an episode. And don't forget to tune in to Sunday today every weekend on NBC to see these interviews with your own two eyes. I'm Willie Geist. We'll see you right back here next week on the Sunday Sit Down podcast.