Switched on Pop - 808s & Havana Heartbreak

Episode Date: February 22, 2018

In Camila Cabello's "Havana" we hear both her Cuban roots and the modern sounds of Atlanta. Though the singer and featured guest Young Thug reference these two geographic identities, the song says so much more through its core musical elements. A Roland TR-808 kick drum evokes an entire repertoire of Atlanta Hip Hop, while the track's supporting piano montuno descends from a Cuban style lamenting the loss of one's traditional home.  Also in this episode, we discuss Camila's unlikely path to number one with writer Hannah Steinkopf-Frank — and the musical glass ceiling that holds so many young women artists back. RecommendationsSwitched On Pop recommends the podcast about sound: Twenty Thousand Hertz Hannah recommends the book: Girl Groups Girl Culture by Jacqueline WarwickCheck out more music and writing from Kwami Coleman at his websiteYou can listen to you playlist of 808s and Montunos on Spotify Featured SongsCamila Cabello - HavanaTI - Whatever You Like2NE1 - I Am The BestMarvin Gaye - Sexual HealingMariah Carey, Jermaine Dupri - Always Be My BabyOutkast - So Fresh, So CleanLil Jon - Get LowGucci Mane ft. Migos - I Get The BagCompay Segundo - Guajira GuantanameraCuarteto Caney - Guajira GuantanameraBig Mama Thorton - Hound DogElvis - Hound DogLittle Mix & Missy Elliott- How Ya Doin?The Shangri Las - Leader Of The PackSleater-Kinney - I Wanna Be Your Joey RamoneSpice Girls - WannabeSpice Girls - Spice Up Your LifeThe Ronettes - Be My BabyThe Shirelles - Will You Love Me TomorrowTLC - No Scrubs Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. I have had Camilla Cabello's Havana stuck in my head. Well, in that case, Charlie, welcome to the club. This is the Billboard charting crossover single from former Fifth Harmony star Camilla Cabo. By the end of today, what we're going to see is that Camilla breaks free of both the constraints of genre as well as biased. gender expectations on this awesome single. Excellent. Yeah, let's get into it. Welcome to Switchedon Pop. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. All right, so here's how we're going to do it. On the top half of the show, I want to break down how she pulls on the history of

Atlanta hip hop and Afro-Cuban jazz to craft this song. And in the second half, I'll be joined by Hannah Steincoff, Frank, an expert in the history of girl groups. And we're going to discuss how Camilla's exit from her former group Fifth Harmony is part of a history of women artists struggling to be taken seriously as solar performers. So to get right into it, we need to talk about Havana and its central thesis. It has an incessant thesis. Do you know what I'm talking about, Nate? The thesis of this song. I mean, I'm just going to go right to the chorus here. Half of her heart is in Havana. Nah, no, no, no. He took me back to East Atlanta. No, no, no, no. Oh, but my heart is in Havana.

No, no, no. Exactly. Did I do it? Did I nail it? Okay, good. That was a little stress. I felt like I was in class again. This is the thesis of the song.

It takes place in two different geographies, East Atlanta and Havana. Well, okay, I just have to interrupt very quickly here. I know we will need to get into it. But thesis, are you sure this isn't? I think what you're describing here is in fact a Higalian dialectic in which we have a thesis, Havana, an antithesis, East Atlanta. And the question I think you might be asking. is will we arrive at that desired point of synthesis?

Well, you know that I love synthesis. I hope that we can get there. But the way to find out is to explore this musical history and see how she does it. Because while some other critics have called this simply a hip-hop Latin fusion crossover track, there is so much more going on here. And I think that it doesn't give nearly the respect to the histories of music that are being represented in igniting our listening here. On the surface, one could say, well, you know, Camilla, she's from Havana. Her guest star, Young Thug, is from East Atlanta. All right, the player set the

stage, done, simple, thesis, complete. Do you think I'm satisfied? No, I think there's more to unpack here. So, what do you think? Do we start in Atlanta or Havana? Where do we begin? As the expert in toiling with drum machines and sample-based instruments. I figure maybe I could approach things from the East Atlanta side. And since you are really talented on the keys, why don't you tick all the Ivory's and teach us a little bit about what's going to happen on the Havana side? All right. I accept the proposition. Take it away. Okay. So Camilla says that her partner takes her back to East Atlanta. And she is evoking this East Atlanta by referencing specific genres within Atlanta hip-hop. And to establish that sound, I thought what we could do is take a listen to a famous Atlanta rapper, Ti,

and his track, whatever you like, to get a taste of that Atlanta hip-hop sound. I haven't heard this in a while. I'm so ready. Okay, so now with that in mind, let's go back to Havana and see if we're hearing some similarities. Okay, I guess if pressed, as I am at the moment, to come up with some similarities, it would have to be in the world of the drums, right? That's where I can see some continuity here. but I feel already out of my depth so I'll let you take it from there. Depth is the right word here because these drums

are huge and deep. There's lots of elements that we could dive into. There's obviously Young Thugs verse. There are vocal samples. There is that high hat trap sound happening throughout parts of this track. But you are right to focus in on the drums. And I want to focus on one specific element

of the drums. and that is just the kick bass sound. People call it an 808. Journey to the center of the kick. And I don't know if you know this, Nate, but the 808 is probably one of the most important sounds in hip hop. It is referenced everywhere. People will say, hey, throw an 808 on it.

Do you hear that 808? There's 808's everywhere. Famous on Kanye West's album, 808 and Heartbreak. These three digits, 808, it is not, the zip code to any place in Hawaii. It is actually an instrument. Are you familiar with this 808 and what it means? I think you meant area code, but I love the simile, so I can't protest.

No, and I'm glad you brought it up because this is an opportunity both for anyone listening and me to perhaps learn a little more about these mysterious three letters. I know it's a drum machine made by the Roland Corporation. Yes. That was popular in the 1980s and continues to be used today. but that's about it. That's right. In order to get to East Atlanta, we have to travel back in time to the 1980s all the way over to Japan. Oh, that was surprising. Okay, great. What are we doing here? Well, what we're doing in Japan is we are listening to the first production model of the TR 808 drum machine.

It was produced by the Roland Company in 1980 and was deemed an absolute failure and discontinued after only things. three years. Now, what do you make of the sound of this instrument? It sounds in a word very 80s, right? Very like dawn of the drum machine, a little tinny, not very sophisticated in a way, but wonderful. Like totally, I love these sounds, but they sound a little like Fisher Price. Yeah. Well, you love it now because it is iconic. It has become one of the most important instruments in the history of music, I would argue. And the thing about it is that it has a really sort of bland sound when we first hear it. It's kind of uninspiring. So the question is, how do we get from this discontinued, unsuccessful drum machine sound from Japan in the 1980s to modern

Atlanta hip hop today? To take us there, we have to go through the vector of Marvin Gay and his hit track, sexual healing. Because in 1982, Gay put the 808 at the center of his his hit song. Whoa, so sexual healing uses the 808. Okay, interesting. Yeah, I like what he's doing with it here. He's somehow found a way to make these really kind of tinny cheap sounds work. It is favored.

Yeah, and there's some minor effects on there that make it sound a little bit better. But this is not a banging hip hop track by any means, right? No, this is a deep slow jam. So even though Marvin Gay's track helped make the 808 famous, creating desire amongst the marketplace. Everyone had to get an 808 to make that sound. What's going to happen is in Atlanta, we're going to zoom in on just one element of that drum machine in order to make banging tracks. And it is specifically the kick drum. Because when we listen to that Marvin Gay track, the kick drum is a little, it's a little weak. Oh, okay. So you're saying that hip hop producers

kind of rediscovered this instrument and sort of beef up the kick drum and turn it into this iconic sound from zero to hero. They're going to popular. it by giving it some more oomph. All right, so let's hear. I want to hear this new and improved bass drum. Fast forward in time to 1995. We can go back over to Atlanta and listen to Germain DePree's version of Mariah Carey's Always Be My Baby. And just like Marvin Gay, the 808 is featured right at the beginning of the track.

So the 808 has been made famous by Marvin Gay. It's popularized by artists like Dupree in Atlanta. But the hip-hop Atlanta sound doesn't really start to evolve until the late 90s, early 2000s. I want to take a listen to Outcasts so fresh, so clean, and we're going to hear that they have found a way to get this simple little kick drum to hit harder and to really start to develop this sound. Oh yeah, there it is. Okay, now that's like the 808 kick I know and love.

Exactly. But we're missing one really important element because there's something that happens in the Havana track, which is that East Atlanta sound, which we're not getting yet on Outcast. And if we zero in on the kick drum, what we're going to notice is that the actual sound of it changes pitches on the Havana track, where on the Outcast it sort of has a consistent bang to it. And so in the development of this 808 Atlanta hip-hop sound, we start to get pitched kicker. drums. This thing which was first a steady tone is going to be moved around so that it starts to have a melodic element to it. To get a sense of what I'm talking about,

we need to listen to the bass heavy, crunk production of Liljohn and his incredibly effective track, get low. Now we have that pitched element. And soon this sound takes over. It becomes totally ubiquitous.

We hear it on modern tracks like Gucci Main and Migos on their track, I get the bag. Modern hip hop trap music. The sound is now ubiquitous. Everybody's using it, and it was really developed through this Atlanta hip hop scene. Okay, so that characteristic kick drum sound arrives from the 808, which has been slowly morphed by sort of like generation after generation of hip hop producer from its original kind of tinny sound that you can hear on Mark. Marvin Gay's sexual healing to now this massive deep bass pitched kick that's both rhythm and melody at the same time. Gotcha. That is exactly right. The 808 has gone from this entirely dry

thing to this banging kick drum such that the name of the instrument is actually now just synonymous with the sound of that particular bass kick. And we can hear this same evolution on Camilla's track, Havana, because she introduces the song with a dry 808, just like we heard on that opening Marvin Gay track. But it is Sons kick drum. And so to add some variation and some interest and that punch in that bass, she's going to add in a kick drum. But I want to just give you a sense of what it would sound like.

What if she didn't have that sort of pitched banging sound, but actually just like the original sexual healing sort of sound? Ah. It's missing something, right? Not quite the same. Yeah, not the same. So all of a sudden, okay, let's see what it sounds like if we start to pitch it. that bass around.

Yeah. Okay, we're nearly there, right? Getting a little closer. Yeah, this porridge is like a little too cold, but we'll get there, yeah. Now let's just little John it. Let's crank it up. Let's crank it up. I'm really sorry.

That's really terrible. I just talk. If you take that same sound, you compress it, you distort it, you mess with it a little bit, you're going to get a modern 808. And check out Camilla's song with that modern 808 sound. That's the Havana I know and love. What was once a Japanese, toy drum machine derided for its terrible replication of an actual drum set is now the quintessential

element to modern hip-hop, and for that matter, pop. That is the 808. So when we hear that on Havana, we are actually hearing this entire reference of musical history going back to the early 80s and really the history of modern hip-hop, which that sound was developed right there in East Atlanta. So that's East Atlanta. I'm curious about Havana. Great, because if what you've just described is the antithesis of the song, I can now provide the thesis, so then we can decide whether we have synthesis.

Thank you for that. That was very edifying. And dovetails very nicely with my analysis of the Cuban influence in this song, which for me is all centered around this piano riff that we hear at the very beginning of the track. The sound puts you right into that Havana feel, but I'm not sure I understand where it's coming from, what it means. Well, I think just in the same way as that kickdrum signifies Atlanta so strongly, in order to understand why this piano signifies Cuba so strongly, we need to go into the history of this sound. In order to that, I have enlisted the help of Kwame Coleman composer, pianist, musicologist, assistant, professor at the Gallatin School at NYU. He can help us understand this piano motive, which is called a Montuno, and how it actually

comes from this Cuban style called the son, and how this particular variation we're hearing is something called a Guajira or a country song, a lament for the country. So we can see that Havana, in fact, belongs to this deeper tradition of Cuban music. But I'm already going to butcher this. So let's go to Kwamean explanation of the piano mantuno here. is a style of music, it's a genre, it's a family of styles within one genre that form the basis of Cuban popular music at large and for much of what we call Latin music today. If I'm going to think how Cuban musicians working in these nightclubs thought 100 years ago

when there was first this idea of Cuban music that Americans knew, it was really a question of adapting things, right? And part of the tradition in the song, You know, there's a distinction between son music, S-O-N, son music from the countryside, and something that they call Son Montuno, so a kind of mounted son. This was a kind of music that was adapted to the nightclubs in Havana, you know, so there was a lot of things, there were a lot of things added on to it. But the son from the countryside involved an instrument called the Tres. And the Tres is a kind of guitar with three sets of double strings.

And the Tres guitar accompanied singers. It was a solo instrument as well. And so it's this way of approaching rhythm from the tres guitar that was adapted to the piano in the nightclubs of Havana. So the rhythm that we hear on the piano in the song is basically a stylized version of what the tres guitar would be playing in a son context. So that's where that comes from. So this very country style of folk tradition when migrating to the city, now picks up the big city instrument. You know, now we have a much fuller, more city kind of ensemble playing. And so the piano is adapting from the earlier country song style.

Guajira is a type of song style where the lyrics are usually more lamenting, right? Usually a story of leaving the countryside or a story of the countryside, some kind of loss, some kind of lament. Guajira is played much slower than the much faster and dance-friendly version of the song called the Guaracha. So the Guajira is a little slower and because of the kind of lamenting themes or lamentation and loss, these kinds of things. And characteristic of that rhythm is a very slow kind of arpeggio. The Guajira is not just about lamentation. I mean, there were several layers of kind of meaning and connotation too because if it was about love loss, you know, part of it is remembering the love itself. there's this kind of slow burning energy there as well. I mean, call it, I don't know if seduction

is quite the word, but there is some kind of erotic element to it as well, you know, and the Guajita, if you're dancing to it, is precisely the kind of dance where you dance very closely. It's a very intimate kind of thing. So it's not just about lamentation, you know, it's about also maybe those kind of deeper forms of attraction or seduction that can happen. You know, the very many complicated feelings when you're in love or when love is lost. So maybe that has something to do with this newer song as well. Nate, this is utterly blowing my mind because what I thought was just like a Cuban-esque sound is so much more. Kwameh's discussion of its history is the narrative of this track, right?

It's the longing for being from a different place. This sound which has traveled, this rhythm which has come down from the mountains and this longing for going back to one's home is central to the Havana argument. her heart is back in Havana. And then underneath that as well as this like eroticism and this movement and this song makes you want to dance and it's about two partners getting together. The whole track feels like it's buried in this history. Totally. And it brings out this like kind of unexpected parallel to your history of the 808. I mean, both of these sounds, this piano sound, we're hearing this Montuno is essentially the like metropolitan version of this.

older country trace guitar style so in both cases we're hearing sort of like the modern update of the original sound yeah yeah and in a way how that like gives us this nostalgia and this sense of loss at the same time so this brings us now to the the question that looms over us havana does it represent the synthesis the we reached the apex of the hagelian dialectic the sentence you may not have expected to hear it right next to the words Camilla Cabo. Well, okay, I think the way that we can know whether or not this works is to, rather than treat these things in isolation, you have to put them together.

What happens when you take the piano Montuno and add it to the 808 kick drum? You get a really dancey track that works really well that represents both of those histories incredibly beautifully. They together are more than the sum of their parts. Well, I totally agree. And that might be because each of these sounds has a layered history that intersects in like multiple surprising ways. Yeah, you're hearing entire histories of music. You're not just hearing these two sounds. And those histories are pulling on all of our musical knowledge and things we've heard in the past to bring us to this moment. Could we call it synthesis? Yeah, I mean, it's synthesis in the sense that if we bring it right back down to Earth, it really just works. It just moves your body.

it's clearly on everyone's lips and ears. So yeah. Sympathesis. Amazing. Oh, it's so much fun. I loved hearing that history. I actually was totally clueless that both of the 808 and the Montuna would have this just richness of connection.

Oh my gosh. I mean, the whole song is so much better for it. And the other thing to celebrate about this song might be that it can act as sort of a gateway drug to access more music from each of these styles, both the. the Atlanta hip-hop style and the Cuban son-Montuno style. So where do we find out more examples of these, Charles? I never knew that I would be creating a playlist that would include trap music, crunk music, snap music for Miss Atlanta with Afro-Cuban jazz on the exact same playlist.

But you know I've made it. It'll be on Spotify and we will share that on our website, switched on pop.com associated with this episode. And I actually also have one other nice little secret, which is that in the East Atlanta reference, there is a song that I think is being directly borrowed from. It's just perfect mashup. And I put that together. I'm going to share it on Twitter so people can hear what song, actually one that we've covered before on the show, is Camilla Cabo and her producers. What are they drawing from?

Whoa, this is like a treasure hunt. Okay. I'm in. I'm in. So we got the playlist. We got the secret mashup. going to be on the website and on Twitter. This has been just absolutely fantastic, but there's more to do. Because in the second half, I'm going to speak with Hannah Stein-Kopfranck, a expert in

girl groups about how challenging it is to break out of the confines of the label of girl group. I can't wait. I'm going to go make some popcorn during the break. All right. I'll see there. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova. And And I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay.

Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me. No. No. No. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits.

I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. President Trump is now targeting predominantly Democratic cities for ice raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens. back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space

is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation,

the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want border at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea. who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. In the first half of the episode, we deconstructed Camilla Cabello's successful number one hit

after her departure from the X-Factor-derived girl group Fifth Harmony. And transitioning into a solo act is not an easy move. And it was met with significant criticism from both the band itself and the industry. However, many have charted this path before, and what we may see are differences in expectations and opportunities for solo artists emerging from girl groups, then from boy bands. To help us understand this gender dynamic, I have joining me Hannah Steincock-Frank, a writer for bitch media, an expert in girl groups. Hannah, thank you for joining me. Oh, thanks. I'm excited to be here. So to start things off, I want to get the definition of just what

What is a girl group? Where does this label come from? And what are we hearing when we claim to be hearing this label of girl group music? Yeah, it's a really good question. It's a label that's definitely been contentious and has changed a lot over time. Really, the girl group label started in the late 1950s, early 60s with the emergence of, you know, a wave of girl groups in the United States whose sound was inspired by both duop, as well as barbershop quartet. And these were some of the first groups to appeal to a largely teenage audience and be made up of all women. Traditionally, women have often been left out of popular music and popular recorded music, not only because of lack of access to music education, but also because of recording technology that really wasn't good at recording the higher caliber of female voices.

Whoa, wait a minute. Okay, we got to dig into that. What do you mean? the recording technology itself is biased. Yeah, I don't have no as much of the technical background on this, but yeah, early recording technology often made women's voices sound very shrill and high pitch. And sometimes that's just a natural caliber of female voices, but there's a lot of writing on how they didn't sound as good recorded. So really, women did not have as much of an access to being in recorded music. And, you know, we see that with artists like Elvis.

And other male artists during the 40s and 50s who became famous with songs by Black Women like with Big Mama Thornton and Horn Dog. They're often histories that are forgotten, but these girl groups with their collective close harmony singing styles were really the first to take on popular music and really be part of the defining of a teenage music genre. Okay, so that's the origin of the sound. And what are some of the characteristics of a sound? of a sound which is labeled a girl group rather than a collection of women who might be singing.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's one of the really contentious things about this, because, you know, during the 60s, the girl group sound developed a lot with Phil Specter and his wall of sound, particularly with his work with groups like the Ronettes and with the Shangri-Ralaz. There's sort of a couple different themes that come out to sort of define this girl group sound. You have that close harmony singing with Phil Spector. You have a lot of that large orchestration. But these groups, really unique things with the fact that they had multiple female singers, a lot of which came from both religious church gospel backgrounds as well as schoolyard thingings and songs. And so you see a lot of relationships emerge with this girl groups lyrically with harmonies. You see background singers both supporting the message of the lead singer in certain songs, but then also sort of contradicting and presenting a different message in other songs. So it created this dialogue that a lot of feminist scholars have argued led to the feminist discourse of second-wave feminism a little bit later

in the decade and in the 1970s. But really, you know, when we see the second wave of girl groups that came around in the 90s with the Spice Girls, Destiny's Child, TLC, sort of the similarity you see there, even though you see a lot broader musical styles with R&B, rap, more, you know, pop of that era, you still see these songs that really geared towards a teenage audience. And there especially you saw more themes of female empowerment that he saw a little bit with 60s girl groups, but a lot of those 60s girl groups really, a lot of the focus was on adoration towards a boy, songs focused on love and romance. But in the 90s with sort of a girl power theme, we saw a lot more songs that questioned that focus on the man

and brought more power and authority to girls being together in female solidarity. If you want to be my lover, you got to hear with my love. I think it last forever. Friendship never ends. If you want to be my lover, taking it's too easy. I think you know when you're talking about the difference between a girl group and a group of all-female musicians,

especially because this day and age, there are so many great technically all-female bands. There's a lot of contention there because a lot of all-female musicians don't necessarily like being labeled as such. They don't want their music to be defined by their gender. I think a lot of female artists could feel this sort of hinders them. It's a label they get stuck with. I think the contention nowadays is a lot of all-female groups don't like to be labeled as such,

but at the same time, there's a reason that they've chosen to play with all-female musician. There's a reason they've chosen to create a space for themselves with all other female musicians. Music and creation can be so intimate. A lot of all-female bands today, they're able to create the music they do because they're doing with other women who share their, experiences, but at the same time, they don't want their gender to totally define themselves as creative people. You mentioned perhaps a difference in the labeling between girl group and boy band. Are there ways in which this label sets up difference in expectations and opportunities for groups with just the difference of the moniker group versus band? Absolutely. And I think

one of the main difference is, is it's a lot more fluid to be a boy band or a boy group. Because, you know, I think really when defining a boy group, you sort of have that same audience, young teenage females. But I think it's a lot more fluid for these male singers, even if they have the same talent or experience as their girl group female carnapots. I think it's often a lot easier for them to transition into a more mature artist role. You know, we see what Justin Timber like, how he, you know, reinvents himself, reinvents himself, and is able to develop this adult professional persona. But I think what's so ironic about this is, you know, you look at the Beatles. They started as a boy band. They started as a cover band.

They covered a million girl group songs. I mean, they always played their own instruments, but they would be nothing if it wasn't for black American musicians. Of course. But they were able, because of their gender, I would argue, to develop into what would be considered a boy band that is revered critically while their female counterparts, when they were literally playing the same songs, aren't considered in history at that same level. There seems to have been a real gap in the girl group in the aughts in early 2010s. However, are we experiencing a return of the girl group with groups like Fifth Harmony and Little Mix? What's happening right now and what is the importance of the girl group in today's musical landscape? What I love about thinking about girl groups is it's impossible to examine them without looking at the sociopolitical context.

You know, we had this other huge gap, you know, really from the late 60s to the mid-90s where besides, you know, an anorama, maybe the go-goes. There really wasn't a girl group culture. And we saw the late 90s early-a-a-a-t's girl culture coming out of the ride girl movement as sort of a commercialized mainstream version of that when you had ride girl groups like Cedar Kitty or whatever. They created a sound their head was really powerful, but not necessarily commercially successful. And we saw Groop groups as a response to that. What we're looking at now, even despite the success of Little Mix and Fifth Harmony, we aren't really seeing girl groups have the same

mainstream success and power that we've seen in the past the Spice Girls were the most financially successful girl I think all female group of all time and I think the thing that's been interesting looking at now is where we're seeing all female groups coming from you know traditionally it's been the U.S. and the UK but we're actually seeing a good number of all female groups out of K-pop Oh my god

that's why I think some of the most interesting in most powerful girl groups are coming out of. And I am noticing that a lot of the K-pop groups, Wonder Girls, and 21, and a couple others that had huge financial success. They had some of the largest crossover success of any K-pop artists. They're starting to disband, but I think it's leading room for new girl groups to come out. But at the same time, it's sort of interesting to look at girl groups now and why they aren't as successful

regarding them because the girl group was created as a unified force, as a group. You know, in the 60s and in the 90s, they dressed the same. Right. They often had similar voices. They were meant to present a unified front. You know, they even often had different singers, and they would try to make them look the same. You know, it really wasn't about the individual personas, the individual people, is about this collective group. Yeah.

But I think nowadays, with popular culture, and especially with women, we really care about those individualized personalities, individualized looks. And so I think maybe what we aren't seeing girl groups having as much success or cultural powers is because we really value those individual musicians and those individual stories. And with the girl groups we have, they have such distinct personas within the members. But, you know, at the same time, I wouldn't go as far with that. Because I think of the pushback that did happen with Fifth Harmony when Camilla left. And I think it's really interesting to compare her new album with the work she was doing there. And, you know, people talk about how personal it is.

how much of more mature it is. And, you know, we sort of see how those stereotypes of girl groups come through, you know, while the music of Fifth Harmony is considered more youthful or less personal or more commercialized. It still begs the question if for her to create music that is considered critically successful, does she have to do it as a solo artist? Was most of the criticism of her leaving generated from this expectation of unity? You know, I really think so. I think there's this expectation that she was part of this group and part of this image.

And, you know, and obviously there's some controversy around how she left. But, yeah, I really do think a lot of it is that she was expected to be part of this thing. And the fact that she's taking the agency to explore herself with a solo artist, I think she's more criticized as a woman than she would be if she was a man. It's a really fascinating point. Yeah. And we have seen, you know, standout stars from girl groups. You know, we have Diana Ross with the Supremes, Beyonce, with Destiny's Child.

She isn't the first girl group singer to find as much, if not more success of the solo artist, but I think it's really hard. Yeah, it's difficult to break out. It seems like one of the dynamics that may be contributing to the decline of girl groups is their origin, which has typically been through parts of consolidated music industry, right? So both Little Mix and Fifth Harmony were winners of X Factor. and the cultural importance of these reality TV shows like X Factor American Idol and so on don't seem to have quite the staying power and direct relationship to future album sales. So I'm wondering, do you think that we're seeing a shift? Are we going to see a different kind of girl group emerging?

Absolutely. And I think really connected to that is the role that producers and songwriters and mad managers and labels played in the creation of girl groups. You know, these groups in the 60s were crafted. At Motown, they literally went to a finishing school to learn how to dress, walk, dance, how to act. And one of the, I mean, probably the biggest criticism of girl groups is most of them didn't write their own music.

And there's sort of this lack of agency that's seen as a way to take down girl groups because they weren't often singing songs that they wrote. They weren't playing instruments. And singing is also often been considered not as prestigious as playing an instrument. Right. And so I think, you know, when looking at reality TV, you know, the girl groups that have come out of it, they've been crafted by Simon Carole.

They've been crafted by these reality TV shows and put together. And I totally agree with you that I think the issue is that people want something that feels natural. They don't want artificial. They don't want something that feels like it's coming out of an executive office, which is admittedly how a lot of girl groups came together. But I think the pushback on that, I would say that in the 16s, a girl listening. listening to a girl group song in her bedroom, she didn't care if that girl didn't write that song. She didn't care if she didn't really play a role in how it was produced. It's the fact that those lyrics and that voice are reaching her and impacting her. That's absolutely right. People

first listen for what connects with them emotionally. It doesn't matter the dynamics of what made it. I do wonder about how these kinds of criticisms about a raucous attitude about who wrote it, who played what instruments. Those criticisms seem to be eroding in the era of music production, perhaps because modern music production is so confusing. It's hard to know who contributed what sample, how it was chopped, and so on. We definitely have shifted on our own show, and I think we're seeing a shift in the general public away from this concern about single authorship to an acceptance of the reality that all modern pop music, with a few exceptions, are collaborative efforts of songwriters, producers, dozens of performers, and it's not unexpected now,

to see long credits for individual songs with eight or nine songwriters. However, maybe even to contradict my own statement, I do recall a lot of criticism about Beyonce's Lemonade and the number of songwriters that she had to use in order to get a quality product, whereas when we listen to Justin Timberlake's new album, people celebrate his reunion with his producer Timbaland. So perhaps those expectations still exist and do not apply equally. Yeah, I totally agree. I totally think there's just this expectation of individualism.

And as an artist, you have to do it yourself. You're not true unless you have this sort of, you know, hands in a million roles. You're sort of doing everything as part of the production. And inherently, a girl group is a collective effort. It's not a solo endeavor. I wonder about what's going to happen with girl groups. And maybe it's worth looking at a case study. The other biggest girl group next to Fifth Harmony right now is arguably little mix.

They also came from, I think it was the eighth season of X Factor. Their most recent hit is called Reggaeton Lento. It's with a boy band called CNCO, and it's generated over a half billion views on YouTube. So that says to me, all right, it's got some pretty significant cultural resonance and influence. For you, what does this successful multi-crossover song, crossover between genre and boy band girl group, What does this song tell us, if anything, about the trajectory of girl groups and what's to come in the post-reality television importance of the generation of girl groups? It started when I looked in her eyes. I got ghost and I'm like, by them.

I don't just think I don't really fascinating because we really don't have that many examples of girl groups forming and banding with boy bands. It's pretty unique. But at the same time, I sort of question. how much this song is moving the discussion forward. It's a remix of a song that they did, all in Spanish. Yeah. But there's a level of disconnect, I feel. It almost feels like two different songs.

And, you know, when you're talking about Havana earlier, I kept contrasting to this, right? Because Havana is such a mix of these cultural elements. It's a mix of who Camila is as a person, as an artist. She's American. She's Cuban. But I really feel with this song, there's a level of disconnect. And I just learned that if you see the music video for it, you see the two groups on two different sides of a club.

And they're looking at each other. They're singing to each other. But they never touch or interact. And I just learned they actually filmed it in two different locations. And at the time of the interview I saw, they never actually met in person. So they created this whole song, this whole video, this whole collaboration, having never met.

And I think that explains so much of the disconnect that you really feel in this song. I think that's really interesting. Listeners tend to be more comfortable today, I think, with this idea of, let's call it, composed authenticity. We understand that Camilla is working with a set of songwriters and is contributing and that there's a collaborative effort going even into the generation of her identity as a solo act. However, it has to be coming from a sense of a real place. The origin story feels real. That is her identity as a Cuban American.

American and the music of both cultures is present on that track. So excellent execution of artistry. However, on the CNCO and Little Mix track, it feels almost like maybe this is too crude, but almost like a Despacito Me Too. Right, let's also do a little remix of what was a Spanish song, see if we can extend it to a larger audience with a, in this case, a British group and see if we can get a big crossover hit and make a bunch of money. That's kind of how I'm feeling that it's happening, especially that they never even met to record. Yeah. And, you know, not to harsh on the song too hard because I think it is totally danceable and totally fun. Oh, yeah. But I think one thing that is interesting about it is looking at the lyrics, you do sort of see them

on this common playing field. You know, I think often when you see songs with maybe, you know, female collaborators, the woman often takes on a more submissive, passive role. And you see the male singer as sort of the dominant. And you see this in girl group songs, you know, they're often the ones having things done to them. The Shangri-Las, give him a great big kiss, is like one of the most radical out there girl group songs because she just goes and kisses the guy that she likes. So like the first girl group song that got really popular was the Chantelle's maybe

1958 or 59. And the whole song was literally about maybe this guy will like me. You know, you see, please, Mr. Postman by the Marvellettes, literally she's waiting for the Mayo Man to come with the letter. You see this sort of hesitation, this waiting for the man to make the move to make the action. But with this song, you know, how they switch between English and Spanish, you really do sort of see them on equal levels and how they take on each other's languages. I think there is maybe a slightly deeper level of communication and cross-cultural communication than with Despacito. but I totally agree that it doesn't go that far and really sort of falls in the trap of trying to mimic this trend of, you know, Latin pop mega hits. It seems to be serving both purposes.

And I don't mean to make any sort of false equivalency between the two tracks because they are obviously different, both in where they're generated from, their artistry, all that the tracks are saying. One significant difference that does come to me is that while the Justin Bieber version of Despacito is, arguably what helped break the track into the mainstream. It was the original track that then had became successful. The remix broke it and the original ended up being the most successful version. One thing that's really cool about, you know, comparing, working with Little Mix and CNCO is they're both really diverse groups. Even though in CINSO is a whole Latin American group, they're from Cuba, Dominican Republic, the U.S. and El Salvador, and the members of

Little Mix have a really diverse ethnic backgrounds. And so I think that's something that's really cool that we see with modern girl groups we saw with Spice Girls, to an extent as well, that it's totally different from the 60s girl groups, which were completely divided by race. You know, even though most of the songs were written by white men, the groups themselves were completely divided. So I think looking at girl groups moving forward, one thing I would also say is, and I think this song as well sort of suggests the increased opportunities for cross-cultural collaboration and increasingly connected multicultural world. Do you hear that multicultural culturalism reflected back in the actual performance and kinds of music that these artists are making.

I'm not sure if I would say it in that song especially, but one of my favorite little mixed songs is one that they did with Missy Elliott. How you doing? Do you know that song? I haven't heard it, no. I think it's in like 2012. It's one of my favorites of theirs. And I think Missy Elliott actually did a song with Fifth Harmony as well. Missy Elliott, a classic very one. and then our artists working with a younger girl group sound. And that song is a very classic female empowerment.

It's about a boy who's doing you no good, so you just don't pick up the phone when he calls pretty much. You know, you sort of see how Missy Elliott and her idea of empowerment and female empowerment fits with sort of the spice girls-inspired version of female empowerment. And so I think these groups really have the potential to do that. And, you know, talking about working with other artists, I really think the girl group genre is fodder for the sort of collaborations that can occur in our modern recording culture.

So we're seeing Camilla step out and create the beginning of potentially a successful long solo career. What kind of dynamics need to change both in cultural expectations and potentially within the music industry dynamics in order to make this more possible for other artists in these bands? To step out and have solo careers? Yeah, exactly. I think, you know, having faith that these artists can be successful and can create work that really has a large audience. I mean, teenage girls, their financial power has grown exponentially since the 1950s or some of the biggest consumers, but yet for some reason, they're constantly ignored or abandoned. And I mean, you see this with so many other marginalized groups. It only feels like now we could have movies like Get Out or Black Panther made that ended up being incredibly.

hugely commercially successful, but at the same time, takes so much convincing of the current system to be made. And so I think it's just, and I hate bringing it back to a capitalist economic model, but I really think that producing these artists is expensive. And I think realizing that when they create work that touches a large segment of the population, even if it's considered not as nuanced or, you know, mature as other artists. Oh, wow. Those words, nuance and mature, they require probably some significant unpacking because within them, and I know that you say that from a place as the sort of the standard criticisms that are that are levied against these artists because certainly the music that, whether it was the Renettes

or Destiny's Child or today with Fifth Harmony, the music that they're creating certainly has parts of nuance. It's obviously created for a mass audience, but you look at the Ronettes as as you spoke about. And that sound that created became the wall of sound and influence popular music throughout history. Destiny's Child

has had a significant influence on R&B. And so interesting how we use these words, isn't it? Oh, absolutely. And I fall into that trap too. And, you know,

I often look to, you know, one of my favorite girl group songs is the first one to hit number one. It's the Shirelles. Will you love me tomorrow? Tonight you're mine. Come live your love.

Interpreted as a pretty, like, simple song about a girl deciding whether to have sex with her boyfriend for the first time. And it could be seen as sort of simplistic, naive, but the backstory to it was written by Carol King and Gary Gawthon. And the backstory is that Carol King got pregnant when she was 18 and quickly got married and pretty miraculously was still able to build a prolific decades-long career as both a songwriter and as her own artist.

And so you hear that song and you hear it coming from the voice of the show and you're like, okay, this girl just sounds sort of naive and like she doesn't really know what she's doing. She's not self-assured, but you know the backstory that's written by a woman who knows the consequences of potentially having sex. And then in the broader context, too, that that was right around the time that birth control was becoming legal and available. The pill was becoming legal. So you also have, for the first time, girls were also able to make this choice. It wasn't simply, will I get pregnant or not? It's will my partner judge me?

Will society judge me? Wow. And so, you know, even when you take these songs that feel very simple on the front, even if they do have interesting musical elements, when you know the story behind them, they carry that nuance, like I was saying. Yeah. It brings me back to what you were saying about that young woman listening to a record alone in their room and making an emotional connection.

And so often the fan base itself is. derided for their lack of nuance or intellect. And clearly, that's just another gendered criticism because in songs, like you just mentioned, the Carol King penned song, fans are digging into that. They're hearing that. It's speaking to those experiences. So I really appreciate you bringing that thoughtful deconstruction. Yeah.

And what's so beautiful about these songs, thinking about how they've been interpreted by artists since? You know, I don't know if you've heard the Amy Winehouse cover of that. Ooh. But it's beautiful. And so you see how these generations. and generations of female artists can still relate to these messages and to the emotion of these songs.

Wow. Well, I'm just really thankful for the depth of research and history and understanding of this music that you bring. And thank you for helping us see with greater clarity a lot of the dynamics that are going on here. They're not as simple as they seem on face value. Absolutely. It was such a pleasure.

I'll talk about girl groups for days. Thanks, Hannah. Awesome. Thanks. One more thing before we go, we want to let you know about another podcast we really dig called 20,000 Hertz. It's outstanding. It's about the stories behind the world's most recognizable and interesting sounds. And listeners of Switched on Pop might want to start with their episode about Musac, where host Dallas Taylor explores the history of Musac.

and how music in public spaces are designed to influence you. All right? So here's a short clip from that episode. Musak gave us a lot more than just the genre of easy listening. Musak introduced the idea that music was to occupy and influence public spaces. There's a lot of, frankly, spurious research, which purports to show that we all love music everywhere. We don't. Unlike the easy listening of Musak's heyday, music in public spaces today is often.

faster and louder. Restaurant reviewers who measure and list noise in their reviews are reporting levels above 70 and even 80 decibels. Those levels can cause hearing loss over time. Charlie and I are such fans of the smart music analysis and brilliant sound design in this podcast. So subscribe to 20,000 Hertz. That's all the letters spelled out.

In your favorite podcast player, we have no doubt you'll love it. This episode of Switched on Pop was produced by me, Charlie Harding and my friend over there, Professor Nate Sloan. Our design is by Luke Harris. And our wonderful editing and mixing is done by the magnificent Bill Lance. Huge thanks to Dr. Kwame Coleman for contributing his expertise to our show. And I'm so grateful to have had Hannah Steincock-Frank on the show. You can find more of her writing on bitch media or at the Chicago Tribune's Red Eye,

their arts and entertainment publication. She also recommends for listeners, the book Girl Groups, Girl Culture, Popular Music and Identity in the 1960s by Jacqueline Warwick. An amazing reference on everything about girl groups. Definitely want to check that out. You can find our Atlanta-Havana mashup playlist at our website, Switchedonpop.com where you'll also find more episodes and let us know what you think on Twitter at Switched on Pop or Facebook Switched on Pop.

We'll also make sure you get that nice little secret mashup that we were mentioning. Hey, we're a really proud member of the Panopplea Network. We're going to be back in two weeks. We're going to have another episode. I think that's all I've got for credits. I'd say so, except thanks. Thanks for listening. For listening.