Switched on Pop - Accidental K-pop star Eric Nam risks it all to go his own way

Episode Date: January 19, 2022

Eric Nam is an accidental K-pop star. Growing up in Atlanta, and graduating from college in Boston, he did not expect that in his twenties he’s sign to a K-pop label, be named 2016 Man of the year by GQ Korea, and become a go-to television personality in South Korea. His music, imbued with his charisma and charm has charted globally. As fun as it is, the K-pop machine can be a real grind — it churns through young people not unlike the NFL draft. Nam is unusually candid about this experience, likely because he decided to quit the label system, and take his blossoming music career independent. On his second all English full length album There And Back Again Nam has full creative control, and all the burdens of sustaining a solo music career. Nam spoke with Switched On Pop co-host Charlie Harding about what it is like to go from K-pop star to indie musician. SONGS DISCUSSED Eric Nam - Ooh Ooh, Heavens Door, Good For You, Honestly, Can’t Help Myself (feat. LOCO), Lost On Me, I Don’t Know You Anymore, Wildfire, Love Die Young Lee Hyori - 10 Minutes MOMOLAND - BBoom BBoom Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. I got an interesting conversation today with Eric Nam, the accidental K-pop star. Growing up in Atlanta and graduating from college in Boston, he did not expect that in his 20s, he'd signed to a K-pop label, be named 2016 Man of the Year by GQ Korea, and become a go-to television personality in South Korea. But it makes sense because his music is imbued with charisma and charm, and it's charted in Korea and globally, too. What I learned from NOM is that as fun as it is, the K-pop machine can be a real grind. It churns through young people, not unlike the NFL draft. And NOM is unusually candid about this experience, likely because he decided to quit the system and take his blossoming music career independent. On his second All-English full-length album there and back again, NOM has full creative control and all the burdens of sustaining a solo music career.

I wanted to know what it was like to go from K-pop star to indie musician. him. So here's my conversation with Eric Nam. Hey, Eric, welcome to Switched on Pop. It is an honor. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm a fan and thanks for having me. You didn't intend to be a K-pop star. How did it happen? No, I didn't. Long story short, I graduated Boston College. I was going to work at Deloitte doing strategy and operations consulting. But before I started that, I asked for a year off. So during my year off, I was like, I'm going to go change the world. And I went to

India, but while I was in India, I got hit up by this program called Star Audition, which is like the equivalent of The Voice meets American Idol in Korea. And they came across my YouTube videos and, hey, would you like to come out to Korea? And I said, yes. You know, when I took a year off, like, I promised myself that if the opportunity to pursue music came about, I would take it. Because doing music is such a risk, especially, I mean, for anybody, but as the son of immigrant parents, like, it's not even a question. It's not even, you don't even dream that dream. So it was terrifying. I can barely speak Korean. I don't know

what I'm saying. I don't know what I'm singing. But I told myself, if I'm going to do something for myself, then this is the time. So I got on a flight, got into the top five of this TV show, And then I ended up signing a record deal, quitting my job, and I tried to make it as a musician in Korea. And that was 10 years ago. So you get a shot at it. You do well in this program. What happens next? I meet with like 15 different labels, and then I end up choosing one called B2M Entertainment.

And at the time, it was home to Ihi, who was, you know, an icon. The Britney Spears, Ariana Grande, Madonna of Korea. So I was like, hey, cool. I get to be in her label. In my contract, I put, if I don't put out an album within six months of me signing, I get to walk. Because that was my biggest fear. When you're walking into a contract, they sign you up, they lock you up,

and you don't end up doing what you want to do. So you get there, I start to take dance lessons, and then I start just following the, the label in terms of like you got to sing this song, learn this song, learn this phrase or whatever. And that's kind of how I spent the following six months. And then by January of 2013, I had my first EP called Cloud 9. Though, if you ask me, quite honestly, I did not really know what I was singing about. One of the more successful songs off that record is Heaven's Door. Oh, gosh. I want to listen back to that for just a second. Oh, no. I'm so sorry.

What a smash! What a smash! What a banger! What a hit! What's your experience of hearing that again for the first time in a little bit? I don't know if you can tell, but there's like this young, naive optimism that is just in the voice, in the bounce of the song, in the cadence of everything. And it was like an era of a fresh start. A new beginning. for young Eric Nam. You said you didn't even know what you were talking about at that point. Yeah, no, I mean, like, you know,

they would give me these songs and, like, practice these lyrics, practice these songs, practice your pronunciation because half the time nobody can understand fully what you're singing in Korean. But I didn't even understand, like, the lyrics. So I was always, like, the Korean equivalent of Googling words

and be like, what am I actually saying? So I remember, like, every time I'm in the recording studio, they be like, you're saying it wrong. It was like, I'm clearly reading it the way it's, written, they're like, yeah, but you don't understand the nuance. Like, how can you expect me to understand I'm American? So it's like, I don't know, I look back on those days with like a lot of, you know, it's very fond memories, but I remember at that time I was really stressed out because I had

no idea what was happening. It sounds like your schedule was pretty grueling. What does the life of a K-pop star even look like? I was packed out from the moment I started until 2018 in Korea as a singer, songwriter, K-pop star. You're not just one thing. You are a multi-hyphenate. And what really kind of took off for me is not just the music, but the TV personality stuff. I became the go-to guy for any time a Western U.S. celebrity was coming to Korea or was doing a press junket for a movie or a TV show. I was the person there to say hello, walk them through saying, I love you in Korean. Can I teach you one word?

Please. Okay, it's I love you. Say it. All right? I lovehue. Saurangheo. Yeah, you're really good. You love me too? Yeah, I love you too. What's going to happen? That was kind of how I, outside of music,

became broadly known to the masses in Korea. And you've put out a lot of music at this point. I had put out music, but it was never really, a lot of music that I really, really wanted to do. But the music is performing well. Like, your second album interview goes to number 12 on the Korean charts. It seems like the music that you're making is connecting with an audience.

but not with you. The album actually did very, very well in Korea. Commercially, it was a very big success. There's a song Good for You on it that is probably my most famous song in Korea. And there's nothing wrong with the song, and I like that song to this day. But I knew that I was writing it to placate a Korean audience. It wasn't exactly like, I feel this in my bones. This is like, I think they'll like this.

What are some of those strategies that you were taking? to meet a Korean audience where they're at. The difficulty I always had with writing music and putting out music in Korea is that anything I wrote, the label would always say, it's too buttery, as in it's too American, and Americans put butter in everything, or it's too sophisticated, or it's too complex, or it's too pop. And then in Korea, there's this thing called bong. And bong is like, I don't even fully understand how to describe what bong is, but bong is

like the heart and the essence of Korean music. The best equivalent I have is like the twang and country music. Yeah, I'm gonna get around a two for all the ones. Just a bussing your back while you're cussing your son. And if you girl... What is the quintessential example of bong?

Oh, man. I don't even listen to that much bong. So it's like hard for me to be like, oh, this is it. But, okay, this is like, I don't know. People might get on my case for this, but I listen to this song and then it's a good song. If you look up this song called Boom Boom. It's a B-B-O-O-M.

B-B-O-M. It's twice by Momoland. Momoland. Got it. Okay, here it is. Like, there's something about this song that screams bong. Here's a thing. Bong isn't a bad thing. It's highly addictive, and that's what people really like.

But it's addictive in a way that I don't know how to make. So it's more of a shortcoming on my part and not, it is not a criticism or anything. Anything on the songs or anything. Okay, and you put out Good for You, and you're saying that's kind of your attempt at you're trying to do these sounds? Good for you is, like, my attempt at, like, trying to follow what was working in Korea at the moment for, like, an R&B, kind of a more jazz-based kind of thing. Dang, I mean, that's a hot song. song. Like, it feels to me, like, another universe's cultural interpretation of, like, what sounds like boys to men to me. And that is the highest compliment.

Oh, thank you. You know, the vocals, just all of it. Thank you. Thank you. So rich. It's really thick. Thank you. I mean, you know what's interesting, though? I think about, like, I don't think we would ever hear a song like this in the U.S. right now in this time of age. No. No. Go back to 1992, maybe. And I think there's something about, like, it's at its core. that moves like Korean people, myself included, but I don't, again, have a full understanding of it. Yeah. So it's 2016. You've released your second album. The music is performing well. Why don't you just

double down on the music and see if you can pull it closer to your vision? Like, why not focused your energy there. Because the TV appearances, the endorsements, all that stuff was making so much money, in Korea, the labels own you 360. So it would be a much bigger and much more stable bet to just say, hey, we're going to put this kid on TV and make him shoot 30, 40 endorsements in the span of a year. That's going to be so much more money than putting out one or two records and then we have to promote it. So very quickly, that shift happened and I felt very, bamboozled where I understand I needed to do it for press and to make money, but I wasn't doing what I came to Korea to do, and that was music.

But you're locked into a record deal. What's your response? What are you going to do about this? I got to a point where I was just so burned out. I was exhausted. I was burned out. I felt a lot of anxiety. Like my health is taking a nosedive.

And so there was like a big breaking point. And that was probably 2017, 18. And I said, from now on, music is the way that I want to do it. I'm going to write my own things. I get to take creative control. And I've made you all this money on, like, the brands and the TV side. So give me music. Okay, so you get some creative control back.

But the music is already doing well. Like, what opportunities are you seeing where you want to take this thing? There is so much opportunity outside of Korea for K-pop to do well. And also, I felt like I sat in a very, interesting space because I am multilingual. And then that's when I started to do a lot of sessions in L.A., you know, doing the typical songwriter dating sessions, just speed dating through producers and songwriters to try to find the right fit. What does it like for you to have to start out on your own, as you call it, dating other co-writers? It's highly stressful. I was very new to songwriting.

So I was so insecure, self-conscious. It's that period where any melody you put out, you're like, oh, my God, this is going to be so sucky, and everybody's going to judge me for making the most basic melody and the lamest lyrics. But you just have to overcome it. And I'm, like, getting read as I say this because it's like a visceral reaction of me, being like, oh, my God, I hope they like this melody. And you just like, whisper something out. And they're like, what?

Can you do it louder? I'm like, oh, no, never mind. it was really bad. And we had periods where we're like, maybe we go R&B and we do super, super urban R&B songs. And I was like, it doesn't feel right. But I think what's for me has always been the guiding light is like, I am a very, very, at my core, a pop lover.

I'm a popophile, if that's a word. I don't know. You coined it. It's good. I like it. But here's a thing. Like, oddly, I quickly realized in Korea, there was nobody that, was playing to the pop sound.

And that was always like my thing. I was like Koreans love pop. Like you go look at the charts. It's all like Charlie Puth, Sam, Sam, Smith, Maroon 5, Justin Bieber, like Adele. But there's no Korean person doing it. And so I was like, oh, let me just keep doing this. Maybe I could become like the Korean guy, the Asian guy that does it. Is there a song that you, in this period of dating and you're trying to figure this stuff out,

you're trying to do the pop thing, LA songwriter world? Is there a song that you eventually arrive on where you're like, ooh, I'm finding something. If you look at the Before We Begin album, I feel like that album as a whole is like a great pop album. But Love Die Young, I felt like was a pop ballad that it was one of those moments where I felt like a lot of things kind of clicked. Please don't let this love die up.

Please don't let this love die up. If I'm going to lose someone, don't let it be a little. So you've got this new album in 2019. It's your big pop album all in English and you're touring with it. You make it to your last show in L.A. in March 2020. And the L.A. show is not just any show. It's supposed to be a big spotlight.

But it's March 2020. Yeah, that show, it was supposed to be, we had all these labels, all these label heads, all these A&Rs, all these agents, everybody coming to be like, let's check it out. Do we pick them up? Do we sign them? Do we put out an offer? And then, you know, we get the, hey, everything shut down. No shows, no gatherings. So I think I was sad. But like at the same time, I was more like concerned about COVID. The world shuts down. You're deciding should I go independent or not. And even though all of music is a giant question mark, you decide to make a ridiculous leap to go independent. Yeah. I did. I don't know. Sometimes... What were you thinking? Sometimes I wonder the same thing. What was I thinking? What am I thinking? I don't know. I think it's just kind of... It just became like the natural thing. You know, I... I, to be honest, like, I don't think there were many labels at the time.

Even music in general, I feel like everybody's figuring out how to make it work, particularly in the early days of the pandemic. And I knew I didn't want to sign to another Korean label because that... would just inhibit everything that I do outside of Korea. And so I was like, I guess like one of the only options is just to go independent. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough.

Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits.

I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app. The goal all along is to make the music that you want to make. You're now unburdened by the label system, but you're also self-financing to keep this whole thing going. What moves do you make next to pursue that dream? Essentially what ended happening is like February through August, I was just writing. I was doing the songwriting thing again, just like, let's try to put something cohesive together. And it was just the longest time we ever spent on an album.

When I was doing albums before, I would fly into LA. five days, do two a day, come out with six to eight songs, pick from there, and that's the EP. And that was how it gets put out. Like I'm telling you, it's a, it's a very intense process. So, um, I think if anything, what did help is that I had the luxury of time, um, of, okay, let's just go slowly and build this gradually. But the hardest thing is, how do we put out really good work and really quality assets and music and videos with a very limited budget and team, there were things that we just had to give up on. There are things that I just had to say, like, I can't focus on it. Like, in Korea, there are teams dedicated to corresponding with fans.

They're literally called fan managers. And their entire job is to engage fan communities around the world and to interact with them and keep them updated on like, this is coming, come to this event. Like, there's so much goes into it. I don't have the bandwidth. So I've just, on those things, I've just taken a pass and that's where I feel bad sometimes for my fans because I see the stuff online where they're like, why don't we get this? Why don't we have that?

Why don't we get this? Because that's what they're accustomed to with other groups. But I just can't. It looks like you choose to double down on the music itself. Like this is the thing that you've been looking to do from the get-go.

You quit your job a decade ago to pursue music and you end up going through all the TV charade and you're, finally deciding I'm going to put up my own work again. You call it there and back again is the record. I think the title stands for itself. You put out your first single, I Don't Know You Anymore.

I don't know you anymore was a song that I put together after I was really angry. I had like a massive argument with somebody, like a very big blowout. And, you know, it was in this period where like we're doing two or three sessions. a week and for me I think they always start pretty organic. We step in like, hey, what are you thinking about? What are you feeling? How are you doing? And that day I was like, I'm just mad.

I'm just really upset. And I was explaining the situation. I was like, I just really wish sometimes, like I just did not know this person anymore. Somebody was telling me the other day in an interview, it was like, hey, you have so many amazing dance cry songs. I was like, what do you mean? It's like, like, they're sad and they're like breakups or they're like, you know, heart-wrenching. But at the same time, I want to dance.

it's really confusing and my senses don't know what to do. And I was like, great, because that's exactly what I have wanted to do for a very long time. And so I think I don't know you anymore is actually a great culmination of those efforts of trying to get in all. Because I don't want to be like, I don't want to be like a sappy, like wet blanket just crying. Like I feel like you can have those emotions and tell those stories, but also kind of poke fun at the situation and be very like honest about it and like just like we're having this conversation, just real. Yeah, there's a duality to these songs.

I think in the same way that there's a duality to your story. Like, you tell your story, you're an immensely charismatic person, you're very upbeat, you're fun to talk with, but also it's coming against this backdrop of it sounds like you've had a lot of fun in your career. It's been super

awesome, but it has been utterly exhausting. And I think a lot of people can relate to the I'm working my tail off even if I'm enjoying what I'm doing. And the music has that vibe of it's pop and it's fun, but it's the music that I want to commiserate with because I'm kind of frustrated at the situation that I'm in.

There is a duality. And I think for a long time, I was wondering, like, is it okay to have this duality to the songs and to, you know, who I am on and off screen? But at the same time, that's how we are as people. What is the vibe that you think you're catching on this record? I hope that it sounds and it feels elevated from my other work.

That's how it certainly feels to me in terms of like the musicality of it, the lyrics behind it, but also the instrumentation of we really try to stay away from as many electronic sounds as possible, which I think really ran pop for a considerable number of years. And coming from K-pop, it's still such a big, big point in it. But also, if I think about the emotional story and the journey that I've been taking over the past few years

and in this album, it's like this constant high, low, high, low, high-low, high-low, And so for me, there is like a really great high where we feel good. Like the world is ours. And then I immediately have like a deep low, which is I'm back again at this like the world is falling apart. Nothing is going to work out. And it's this very chaotic sense of life.

But for some reason in this album, it felt cohesive and it felt like I could point at it and say like I've kind of synthesized the chaos into something that feels. good and generally uplifting with like a moment of like oh I absolutely feel I absolutely feel this lyric or I feel this emotion and so sorry very long-winded answer but that's that's kind of what I'm thinking it's kind of like the chorus of the album's opening song lost on me oh everything about you now is bittersweet last song in the symphony everything about you know is bittersweet last song in the symphony I feel like you're also flexing your 90s pop music knowledge here. Why?

Oh, I didn't even put that together. Is this just happening for you now? Yes, I'm like literally, you are blowing my mind for my song. I love it. I mean, everything now is bitter sweet last song in the symphony. You're giving me the verbs. Bittero Sweet Symphony, which is, of course, a reference to Rolling Stone song, which they sampled long story there. But you've almost like taken this wonderful pairing of Bitter's

Symphony and like told the fuller story of it and made it something else. Hey, you know what? You just actually blew my mind. Maybe it's just so in my DNA that I don't even realize the incredible thing I'm an idiot. Yeah, totally intentional. Uh-huh. But it's, I don't know. I don't think I'm like that, I wish I was that profound. But here's the thing, in my defense, and maybe this is a cop-out, but everybody, like, anytime we put out an album, you know, we're always asked, what does this album mean to you? What does it, like, tell us more about the theme or whatever, whatever? And I feel like those are just very general and, like, you know, natural questions to ask

about a brand-new project. But at a certain point, I found myself saying, like, it is whatever the listener wants it to be. And the reason I truly feel that is because when I write these songs and I write these lyrics and I make create these moments, everybody has their own personal version of that story in their life. Everybody has that relationship that is bittersweet. Everybody has that relationship where I wish I didn't know you anymore. And to them, that's what makes that song real. And I think that to me as a creator, as a writer, as an artist, is more powerful in helping people process. their life, than me one way pushing, this is me. And that's kind of how I've made sense of

a lot of my songs, particularly this last most recent one, recent album, I'd say. Are you getting any indicators of whether or not this is working for you? You've made this bold effort to go on your own. I like to think that when I make a decision, I made the best decision for me at that point in time. And that was my optimal choice. And so whatever path that takes me down, that is the life that I have to live. And then I just have to keep making it better. I'll say when it comes to being independent, yes, there are moments where I'm like, man, I wish I had a label that just like took care of all this paperwork, signed the documents, would wire the money and like figure out logistics for XYZ ABC. You were supposed to be a Deloitte consultant. You bailed on it.

and now a decade later, you're trying to figure out whether, like, you're trying to figure out logistics and finances. You accidentally became a consultant. You should see my Excel spreadsheets. To make a decision on how many albums to print and make and ship and all that, like, there's so many correlating cells and formulas. And I'm like, is this what life is? Is this what an independent musician does? You can't escape this spreadsheet. Yeah.

Have you quit K-pop? Have I quit K-pop? Uh, no. I don't think so. People know me for different things. In music, some people will know me for K-pop because that's where I started my career. That's where my career has derived from. Other people will step into Eric Dom and say, oh, it's just a pop record. Hopefully, maybe because I'm talking to you. And they can't even, if I don't tell them I'm K-pop, they will have no idea. But I think if I look at the word K-pop, you know, it's just popular music in Korea.

and that's what it is. Slash globally. And globally, it's what it is. And so this kind of goes to the music as well. It's like if fans say, hey, you're a K-pop artist, like, fine. If other people say you're a pop artist, fine. Doesn't really bother me. It was a very recent realization, maybe a year or two ago, where I was like, you know what?

Rather than trying to be boxed off into A or B, I'm going to make C. And that is being third culture. And I think for a long time, myself and I'm sure many other people included, we felt like it was a handicap on in terms of what we were able to do and pursue and achieve. And I think there are naturally systemic biases that make it harder for us. But at the same time, it is a perspective and a story that only we can tell that nobody else has the rights or the knowledge or the insights to. And so being able to do it on our terms is kind of how I'm trying to. to reframe my career and the things that I do and use it for good, as altruistic as that may sound. Use it for good. By it, do you mean your public platform? What do you think your responsibilities are as a

public figure? If there's one thing that I definitely intentionally set at the onset of my career, it was like if and when I make it, if I make it, if I get a following or a platform, like I will use it for good. That was like a very public and also a very personal thing that I told myself and everybody around me because I feel like there are so many marginalized people and I think there's so many issues in the world that we should advocate for. Now, in Korea, the hard thing is that like we're expected to not say anything on politics, on anything really because it's a business risk, honestly, because people can get upset one way or another. And so we're always trained not to say anything. But for me, there was this point where I was like, well, if you don't say

anything when you're relevant and when people care about what you say, me tweeting into the Twitterverse of nobody following me, like it doesn't actually matter. So I should be using my platform and my voice to guide it towards what I think is right when I have the attention on me. Is there a specific moment where you were able to use this platform? for something that mattered? I mean, I think one of the hardest, but one of the proudest that I'm really glad I did was, you know, when there was the horrific hate crime.

There was a horrific hate crime in Atlanta last year in March, and a gunman had murdered a bunch of people. And the majority were Asian, Asian American women. And I was asked by Time magazine to write a piece, like an editorial. And for me, I had never read. written anything like that. And I was in Atlanta at the moment when it happened. So it shook me to my core. I not want to cry easily, but I remember crying literally and figuratively, it hit so close to home. And so the thing that was really terrifying is like as an Asian, Asian American, we have such few

historically, we've had such few opportunities to make headlines on a national or an international level. And so when we are given the opportunity, we have this burden to make sure that it over and outperforms anything so that we have a second shot to make anything else. And I think that's why, like, for movies or music, it's like when you're supporting an Asian or Asian American actor or a musician, it actually speaks so, it has bigger reverberations around the world than you may realize. And so for me to say, oh, let me raise it. And so, for me to say, oh, my hand, I'll be the one to write the one piece that's going out in time about the hate crime was terrifying. But they gave me like 36 hours or something, like a really short period

of time to put that together. And it was pretty much synthesizing the experience of growing up as a child of immigrants in Atlanta and the subtle racism and like the many things that we are subject to that we've like, for one way or another have normalized and, and, and, and, and, and tying that in with this horrible attack, this hate crime. And so it literally was the hardest thing for me to ever do. But it was in many ways, I'm really glad I did because once I put it up, the response was just, it was out of this world. The thank you is for verbalizing and putting into writing

what I've had such a hard time explaining to people who are not like us. You said, as AAPIs, we have been excluded, interned, vilified, emasculated, fetishized, and murdered. And then you spoke about Asian Americans feeling like perpetual foreigners. I think it can be as casual as like, where are you from? Where are you really from? That was probably the hardest. But at the same time, I'm really glad I did. And, you know, hopefully there aren't those similar things in the future that I do have to do something about. There's almost a way, though, that, like, your training or your, I should say, your experience that you received by going through the K-pop system, strangely, even though you are, that system does not want people speaking out, like, it kind of uniquely situates you in a place to be able to communicate, go on television, to articulate hard, emotional truths about life as one has to do in song. Yeah, and I think you hit the nail on the head.

And I think that's what I mean when it comes to, for me, embracing being like third cultured, because that experience to me is not one that anybody else is going to have. And I think it's also uniquely Korean-American in the context of K-pop. Because there are not many other people who will ever have that opportunity to do and train and learn like I have. And so it is, I don't have any regrets. There were definitely difficulties getting to where I am today, and there will be many more to come. but everything that I've done, everything that I've built and everything that I've fought for

has in one way or another helped and informed and built me to where I am today. And I think for that, I'm incredibly grateful. It's been an absolute pleasure to get to hear your story. I'm so excited to get to share it with everybody. Thank you for listening. And thank you for the thoughtful questions. I feel like it's a gift to be able to ask those questions

and communicate in a way. And this is probably the most fun interview that I've had in the conversation I've had in a very, very long time. Switched-on Pop is produced by Nate Sloan and me, Charlie Harding. We're edited by Julia Myers, engineering by Brandon Farland, community management by Abby Barr, illustration by Iris Gottlieb. Our executive producers are a shot, Karwa and Hannah Rosen, or member of the Vox Media Podcast Network and a production of Vulture. You can find our episodes on our website, Switchedonpop.com. And, of course, anywhere you get your podcast.

We're on social media at Switched On Pop. I'd love to hear about other musicians you know that have taken that wild move of leaving the label system and going totally independent. Let me know of your favorites on Twitter and Instagram. We'll be back next week. Nate's going to be talking with Elvis Costello. And until then, thank you for listening.