Switched on Pop - Belle and Sebastian on the value of staying "young and stupid"

Episode Date: May 3, 2022

Belle and Sebastian released the first album Tigermilk in 1996, and they’ve released eight more since—a catalog that helped define the sound of rock and indie in the new millennium through buoyant melodies and verbose lyrics.  Their new album, A Bit of Previous, continues to refine their unique sound but also embraces new musical directions. We spoke to Stuart Murdoch, leader of the 7-piece band hailing from Glasgow, Scotland, about their latest project. Songs Discussed Belle and Sebastian - Young and Stupid, Unnecessary Drama, If They're Shooting at You Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I'm musicologist Nate Sloan. Bell and Sebastian released their first album, Tiger Milk, in 1990. And they've released eight more since then, including the boy with the Arab strap. Fold your hands, child, you walk like a peasant. And it's best to finish at the start in. And dear catastrophe waitress. Listen to Thin Ledz Meo and watch the Sunday gang in Hiramutuco. There's something wrong with me.

I'm a cuckoo. This catalog, rife with buoyant melodies and hyperverbal lyrics, helped define the sound of rock and indie in the new millennium. And Bell and Sebastian hasn't stopped evolving. Their new album, A Bit of Previous, is out this week, and it continues to refine their unique sound, while also exploring new musical directions. We spoke to Stuart Murdoch, leader of the seven-piece band hailing from Glasgow, Scotland, about their latest project. Stuart Murdoch, thank you so much for joining us here on Switched on Pop.

It's a pleasure. I wanted to start by listening to and talking about the song that kicks off the new Bell and Sebastian record a bit of previous. It's called Young and Stupid. Does together at the hits. Does young at the lips Nature has stupid

nurture will and be when you're young and stupid? Does young and stupid represent any larger themes that you're exploring on this album? Stuart? Well, first of all, there are, there are no themes in Bell and Sebastian Records.

There's no themes, schemes, plans. We never tend to plan anything in advance. Songs come individually and we give the song always, we give the song precedent. That's the most important thing. So sometimes, sometimes a theme might occur. It might seem like there's a theme afterwards. You might see something. And actually, you're probably in a better position than I am.

to see if there's a theme but it's it's kind of accidental but this song probably what you're hinting at is that we're we're looking back on this record and and we're not really we're there's too much going on i've got two young kids there's too much going on in our in our present lives to to be looking back so much you even maybe reference that in in the lyrics of this track Some with kids, some with dogs, getting through the nightly slog. Some with kids. Some with dogs. Getting through the nightly slog.

What is being young and stupid represent then in the world of this song? Well, being young and stupid is a mindset of everything before responsibility. And we thought things were really bad. We thought things were difficult. And actually, the things weren't ideal. I remember, I'm talking about, like, for me, period of 85 to 90, which I call my halcyon days where I seem to have endless energy and I was trying new things out and I was failing university many times but trying new jobs and, you know,

working in music and running marathons, having all that energy but not having the wisdom to really know what to do with it. I love the notion of being able to be lost in your own city. You'll never get lost again because you know your own city too well. But when you're were younger, you were always getting lost. But that was the fun part is like discovering things, finding your way back. So youth is energy without wisdom. And then older age is wisdom without energy. It's a direct swap. I have a Buddhist teacher who's always saying, I see you all going to the gym. I see you all training, looking after your bodies, being meticulous about what you put in your in your body says him sipping out a beer but um you know you're all you're all being so fussy

everybody's going to fall apart your bodies are going to fall apart everyone is going to fall apart eventually everybody's going to get old look after your mind i mean by all means look after your body because it encases your mind but but look after your mind try and go forward train your mind to you know to have a positive outlook this this song does uh keep my mind occupied, not just for its lyrical joys, but for some rhythmic ambiguity in the chorus that I find keeps me on my toes. Let's listen to that. When I listen to that chorus, I find that the downbeat, this start of each measure doesn't always occur where I expect it. I'm curious if that was a conscious compositional choice or something that emerged

intuitively. Yeah, it always just tumbles out. I'm glad we're talking about rhythmic ambiguities. You're the first person. I've actually done quite a lot of interviews about this record. You're the first one, even to talk about rhythm, which is nice. Rhythm is important in music, obviously. and it's super important when it comes to LPs and it's super important coming to live because the way that you put a satisfying LP together is you vary the rhythms that's what makes the playlist good

is when you change the rhythm rhythm and tempo this is one of a number of songs on the record that because of lockdown because Richard the drummer and some of the other band couldn't get in all the time looking after the kids I actually programmed the drums on this

with our engineer Brian and so that might it's almost like it's almost like it's me playing the drums so I think maybe if the songwriter is directing the rhythm maybe comes across a bit strange and that's what I wanted

so but I counted the notes in the bar there I don't think there's any I don't think we ever go to 6-4 I don't think there's any half bars it's still like a 4-4 it just as you say the beats fall in an unusual place the beats fall in an unusual place it loops in a set of three measures rather than two or four, which is kind of unusual.

And then I did, there's one moment where I think in the final appearance of the chorus, there is a measure, an extra measure of two. There you go. Wow. So I'm good analysis. I spent, this is how I spent my morning. I detect some energy without wisdom in the creation. of that drum groove, perhaps. Yeah.

Well, that's grand because, I mean, you know, in this song I am hinting and looking back and saying it is a lot of fun. And I do have these golden thoughts of Halcyon days. But that's because partly because I'm an artist and a writer and I have to think about the past as being a golden place. So I also would have nothing to write about it. That's just the way I look at it.

But I'm having a good time now. I love making records. I love playing in our band. So there is an abandon when you go into do music. I think especially as a singer, you're allowed to be the free radical in the band. You know, you can just, when you're on stage, you feel like you're floating in between all the band members. And it's a childlike thing. So it is, it is in a sense, it is energy without wisdom, and that's fine.

There are even more surprises on this particular. track, the bridge section or perhaps an instrumental interlude, if we want to call it that, that we had a little taste of earlier, is a very striking moment in this song. You expect a bridge like that to last for a few seconds, but this quickly blossoms into a miniature concerto. What are some of the instruments we're hearing there and what were behind some of those instrumental choices. It always starts with top line.

It's a fundamental part of this song. That's where it went. And often, you know, Sarah is my foil. She's maybe the first person I go to when I'm looking for another voice. And so obviously Sarah's singing the top line melody there. We have the little trumpet coming in at the end. I think the trumpet.

And then once you've got an instrument, in there, you probably should keep it until the end. So it has a few notes towards the end. Is there perhaps a melodica or an accordion there? So I think it's a keyboard. I think that's Chris on keyboard. And he's maybe playing a reedy, a reedy sort of pad that is quite like an accordion. The funny thing is that we are a little bit scared to bring a real accordion into the studio

because Richard, our drummer, his dad. dad and his grandparents, they sold accordions all over Scotland that they had a large music shop and his whole upbringing was accordion music and carrying accordions around. He's got a phobia against the court. He's got, and it's the one instrument that he will not abide. Yeah, that's, that's hysterical and sounds very, very serious. I don't know if that's in the DSM yet, accordion. phobia, but it should be. I'm sure he's not the only one. Let's listen to another song from this new release, a bit of previous. This is unnecessary drama. Another unexpected instrumental timbre to kick off this song. The one that sticks out to me is the harmonica, which is not being used in a way I

usually think of a harmonica. It almost sounds like a screaming electric guitar. How did that, how did the intro, the opening of this track, come together? It sounds like a screaming electric guitar because the harmonica is played by our screaming electric guitarist, Stevie Jackson. But he's a man of many talents. So the sound of this record was very much sculpted by Bob Coldei, the other guitarist in our group. So this is his song. And so musically, he had a blueprint for this song, even had the title, Unnecessary Drama. And he asked me to write the words for it. But he very much had the instrumentation and the plan for it. And it was almost like a sort of last minute thing was like, okay, Stevie, now I want you to play harmonica. I want you to play it all over it. And,

you know, I want you to play it like a fast train or something. You know, it. And that was the, yeah, that's the real color on this track. It's also, it also provides one of the more entertaining moments in the music video for this song, which dramatizes a therapy session that Bell and Sebastian the band is having. And there's a moment when Stevie is forced by the therapist to hand over his harmonica, which I just could, I just found, as someone who's played in a lot of bands, I just found that so relatable. He's a little bit like that in real life when he gets, you know, we had to band guitars on the band bus, you know, and things like that.

But yeah, he gets hold of his harmonic. He's very fond of it. Let's listen to the chorus of a necessary drama. This song rocks, I think, is perhaps a technical term I can drop here. I'm curious, like, how you hear this song fitting into the album as a whole. You said earlier, you have no theme, schemes, or plans. And so when you're putting this album together, how do you decide, well, this song is providing a lot of this high octane energy? How does this fit into the overall aesthetic? Quite frankly, this would, in a sense, this would have been the easiest song to leave off the record, maybe because it is so out there, it's quite a lot more up than most of the other songs.

But then it was quite clear from the start that when the record company and our manager heard the song, this was a real favorite of this. There was no way that we were leaving it off. Right. So you just, you kind of stick it in the middle. And I still think about, you know, when I'm sequencing the record and the band allow me that privilege to sequence the record, I still think about it as two, as a single platter, two sides of vinyl. Right, right.

I think six and six tracks. It's even, you know, even on the, if you listen to the CD or even the streamed version, there's an extra gap. before this track because it's the first song on the second side so it's it's definitely cleanses the palette right right you know it's leaping into the it's like you know the start of a stone's record or maybe the queen is dead by the smiths it's quite uh or big my strikes again you're the start of a significant side and it's meant to sort of launch it i love that because there's that feeling of of anticipation when you're listening to a record for the first time and you flip it over and you're wondering what's going to start the other side of this record.

And so you're recreating some of that tension in a medium that can't necessarily capture that same physical sensation. I think we might have even in the past gone to the extent of actually putting the sound of the needle going to the end and then that was maybe going a bit too far. and bathe records of ventas with the form of the pay for a more conversion

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in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated. My sense is that people want order at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top

down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. Let's listen to another song from the new Bell and Sebastian release, a bit of previous. This is called If They're Shooting at You. If they're shooting at you kid, you must be something right. If they're shooting at you, you must be doing something right. That's a really remarkable turn of phrase. I'm curious where that emerged from. So it's lifted.

It is actually lifted from a TV show that you probably have heard of. It's called the West Wing. Sure. Yeah. And that was an episode where Charlie was the president assistant. So the president would be shot, but they were actually aiming at Charlie. And so he only just found out that they were trying to kill him. And this older guy sort of mentor figure said to him, well, if they're shooting.

not you you must be doing something right this song is being used by by you in the band in in a way that that goes beyond just another release off the record can you tell us how this song actually relates to the war the russian war of aggression in the ukraine right now yeah so we we were we announced our musical LPR project pretty much around the same time as Russia was invading Ukraine and and it felt we felt pretty useless you know we felt that this was a trivial procedure considering what was happening in the world it really felt like the world was changing at that moment and I think it was I think it has so it just happened that the first angle came out but this This song was due to be the second single in a few weeks.

And we had the notion that because of the subject matter, because it was about the violent oppression of individuals and chaotic lives being ruined by violence and war, obviously we donated all the funds from this song in perpetuity to the Red Cross. I was pleased that because sometimes you always got to question your motives. You know, we felt that we, this is always. we could do at this point i wasn't i mean we weren't going to go to ukraine we couldn't you can say stuff on twitter but you know there's only so much you can do practically it was so interesting because

this song was as you say written prior to to these events or maybe concurrently but it resonates in a in a really striking and and maybe an unexpected way i think there's always i mean there's always going to be war but there's always going to be you know there's always violent oppression there's always people living lives that we can't we can't even imagine what they're going through or have gone through i'd love to talk next about the song that closes out this this album a bit of previous it's called working boy in new york city there's a lot to love in this opening from the funky backbeat provided by the rhythm section to this kind of mesmerizing melody provided by a flute. What was the genesis of this composition, Working Boy, in New York City?

This was actually the first song that I played to the band when we got down to the record properly in Glasgow. And I said, okay, let's start. I've got a new one here. And it came together quite quickly that Sarah playing the flute it's I think it's some it's a sound that the band has been kind of toying with or aspiring to for quite a few years now to be able to lay down a pretty decent sort of pop soul vintage sound and I've got I guess I've got confidence in that process now where I feel that it can be that my voice can be adequately accommodated and I feel quite free to sing that stuff. So I don't play any instruments.

I'm just singing on this. Let's listen to the chorus of Working Boy in New York City. Is there a sense of, I don't know, like nervousness, trying something new, trying something that maybe doesn't conform to a bell and Sebastian sound that audiences might have in their mind's eye. You said you were maybe working towards pulling off these kind of more. pop oriented grooves. What does it feel like to actually put that out into the world? Oh, I never feel, I never feel nervous. Maybe that's, maybe that's a side of hubris.

But I kind of, you know, I've been through a lot in my life. I'm 53. I really don't care that much what people think about either me or the, or the music I do. Or the music I'm involved in. And I think the band feels kind of the same way. We enjoy. what we do. Also, as well, even if something does fall short or doesn't quite reach your aspirations,

sometimes that can be the most interesting things. So many of my favorite groups, artists, are people that, in a sense, are trying and failing at the music that they're doing, but it's fascinating and completely satisfying in its own way. The fragility

becomes what you love about it. Well, I love hearing that. You don't, care what people think something very strange happened yesterday i i started the day and i was on instagram and and someone i i follow there had a meme on their instagram story that was a you know a fake headline that said man replaces bell and sebastian cd with pantera cd before dropping his car at the mechanics other way around you know man replaces pantera CD with uh val and sebastian CD before going on a date yeah there you go in a sense we're up against it we're like a a regressive gene or something that should

disappear because people are kind of against it you know but we the thing is we're we're still here we ain't go you know we've been here for 25 years and we're still here we're still talking to you we're still putting up records. And so we might be deeply uncool and a little bit fey, but we ain't going anywhere. Stuart, thanks so much for joining us on Switchdown Pop. Thanks, Nate. Thanks, everyone. Switchdown Pop is produced by Nate Sloan and Charlie Harding. Our editor is Jolie Myers. Our engineer is Brandon McFarland, and this episode was engineered and mixed by Veronica Simonetti. Iris Gottlieb does our brilliant illustrations, and Abibar is community manager.

Executive producers are Nashat Kurwa and Hana Rosen. We're a member of the Vox Media Podcast Network and a production of Vulture. Find more of Switched On Pop anywhere. You listen to podcasts or check out our website, switchedonpop.com. Tell us what your favorite bell and Sebastian tracks are at Switched on Pop on Twitter and Instagram. And finally, be sure to tune in next Tuesday when. we will dive deep into the magic, mystery, and mayhem of the Eurovision song competition. Thanks for listening.