Switched on Pop - Best of 2024 so far: hip hop feuds, Hozier’s pop surprise and espresso shots

Episode Date: April 30, 2024

The beginning of 2024 has brought new music aplenty. Some big releases are in the form of big-ticket albums by the world’s biggest superstars (shoutout Taylor and Beyoncé); some are in the form of soon-to-be radio-friendly staples (we love you, "Espresso"); and some are in the form of personal earworms (Justice! Rosie Tucker! Dua!). This episode of Switched on Pop, we take a look at the records that we can’t stop listening to from the past few months, from Metro Boomin to Kacey Musgraves to Willow Smith.  Songs discussed:  Metro Boomin, Future, Kendrick Lamar – Like That J Cole – 7 Minute Drill Drake – Push Ups Rick Ross – Champagne Moments WILLOW – Big Feelings Hozier – Too Sweet Sabrina Carpenter – Espresso Justice, Tame Impala – One Night/All Night Justice – Generator Rosie Tucker – All My Exes Live In Vortexes Lizzy McAlpine – I Guess Kacey Musgraves – Too Good To Be True Maggie Rogers – The Kill Dua Lipa – Illusion Kacey Musgraves – Deeper Well Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you're tired of endless scrolling to figure out where to eat, same. I'm Stephanie Wu, editor-in-chief of Eater. We've just launched the new-ish and way better Eater app. It has all the restaurants we love, gives you personalized picks wherever you are, and serves up smarter search results just for you. You can find my list of the best places for martinis and fries in New York City. And save your favorite spots, share lists, follow editors, and book right in the app. the Eater app at Eaterapp.com. It's free for iOS users. Welcome to Switched-on Pop. I'm musicologist

Nate Sloan. I'm songwriter Charlie Harding. And I'm producer, Rianna Cruz. 2024 has seen a deluge of brilliant music. A deluge? A deluge? A deluge? A deluge? Both. Both of them, Charlie. That's how much music, okay? Some of it from massive stars, some of it from up-and-coming artists. And in today's episode, we are going to listen through some of our standouts from the year to uncover the new sounds that are shaping our modern soundtrack. Oh, okay, fun. Let's kick things off with a hip-hop disc battle that has been all over the news,

but I feel like the music behind the drama has been less studied. Rihanna is going to introduce this topic. Yes, today we are talking about like that by Future and Metro Boomin featuring Kendrick Lamar. So like that, I just spent three weeks at number one on the Hot 100. So it's the big track of the moment right now. And it's coming from the future Metro Boomin joint album, We Don't Trust You, which if you guys remember from our Metro Boomin episode,

one of Metro Boomin's tags is... Hey, young Metro, I don't trust you. I'm going to shoot you. What do I ever do wrong? Why does he trust me? So looking musically, the track is founded on two samples, one of which is everlasting bass by Rodney O. and Joe Cooley from 1988. That's a great title. That's an offensive synthesizer sound, but like in a fun way.

Those synths are brighter than the sun. They come in right on the top of like that. That's a powerful sample flip. It's so intense. And there's also another sample flip. Coming from EasyE's song Easy Does It. He was once a thug from around the way. Easy, but you should-

Bitch, shut the fuck out of here. Yo, Dre. That's aggressive. Wow. And here's how Metro flips it and like that. I feel like there's a little bit of justice for the singer in that sample from EasyE. because they get interrupted by EZE in the original. And here and like that, they get to finish without any interruption.

So it's like their moment in the sun has finally come. I also feel like the song is a great synthesis of these two different samples because on the one hand, you're sampling EZE, one of the founders of NWA, and in the chorus you have dope dealing and sort of allusions to gangster rap. But at the same time, the other sample, this obnoxious, silly synthesizer, there's a lightheartedness as well in like that, you know, pop another bottle if you like that. It's both a gangster rap song but also a party rap song at the same time. So that's what's happening in the samples.

But perhaps more importantly, the song has been the genesis point of a wide spanning rap beef as the track. Kendrick Lamar's verse specifically takes aim at who is arguably the world's biggest rapper right now, Canada's own Drake. Where was Where was the disc, where was the disc? Where was the diss? Oh, Nate, come on, you got to tune in. He's choosing violence. He says, no 40.

40 is Drake's producer. Okay, I got that. Yeah. Right. Yeah, the whole verse. is laden with Drake references, including shots at his collaborator 40. There's lines that say,

for all your dogs getting buried, in references to Drake's record for all the dogs. For all your dogs getting buried, that's a K with all these nines. He'll see Pet Cemetery, nipple. He talks about sending him to the Pet Cemetery. You know, there's multiple layers here, but the beef seems to have started

from a line that Jay Cole says on Drake's song, first person shooter. Love when they argue the hardest MC. Is it K. Dot? Is it Aubrey or me? We're the big three like we started a leave. But right now I feel like Mohammed Ali. Right. Love when they argue the hardest MC.

Is it KDOT, as in Kendrick? Is it Aubrey? It's Aubrey. You have to stop calling him Drake. It's just Aubrey. Or is it me, Jay Cole? They're the big three. Right.

The big three of 2010's rap, Kendrick Lamar, Drake, or Jay Cole. people litigate this online and have for multiple years. So keeping that big three idea in mind, let's listen to a little bit of Kendrick's verse. Think I won't drop the location. I still got PTSD. Mother fuck the big three.

Nica, it's just big me. Nigel, bum. I mean, drop the mic, fuck the big three. It's just the big me. That's amazing. Yeah, come on. There's no contests about who number one is. Also, Kendrix, like the kind of,

voice he's doing on this is so funny. I don't know who he's imitating exactly, but he kind of sounds like an old, like an old curmudgeonly man or something. The way he says bum has taken up space rent-free in my brain. We got to hear that real quick. So aside from calling Drake a capital be bum, Kendrick is saying in these lines, A, Drake's best work is mid, B, neither of them match up lyrically, and C, he's the Prince to Drake's Michael Jackson, a multi-layered disc that references both the beef that the two superstars had in the 80s and the differences in their artistic expression, as Prince is more artie and MJ is more commercially successful. Okay, that's a great diss. Good job.

That's funny. It goes back to another line. See what I mean? There's multiple layers here. It goes back to another line on Drake's first-person shooter. I think this is kind of funny because supposedly Beat It is inspired by Westside Story when the gangs, the sharks, and the jets meet up and they say, Beat it. It's kind of a lame insult. Yeah, the whole thing, Kendrick's verse is really cool. I rock with it heavy. But the whole beef, writ large, has ballooned in this, like, massive, all-encompassing. missing Jets Sharks taking sides thing in hip hop right now, where the first person to fire back was Jay Cole, who put out a disc track that he later rescinded and said that he didn't mean it, and he apologized. And then after Jay Cole, Drake put out like the Simpsons, your first shit was classic. Your last shit was tragic. Your second shit put niggas asleep, but they gassed it. Your third shit was massive. And that was your prime. I was traveling right. And then after Jay Cole, Drake put out.

his official response push-ups. Because Kendrick Lamar historically is short. Low blows. Short king, come on. Even kind of, you know, Drake, I feel like, has a sort of singular rapping voice. Whereas Kendrick Lamar, you know, is all about putting on these different characters. A little bit here we have Drake putting on a Kendrick voice, too.

Kind of going higher pitch, little nasally. Flexing some more intricate lyricism than we usually hear from him. I mean, if the outcome of this beef is Kendrick pushing Jay Cole and Drake to like do some of their best work in ages, like that's not a bad outcome. I mean, I don't know if we're supposed to adjudicate this, but I feel like Kendrick still sort of comes out on top here is my feeling. Oh, absolutely. But even before he's responded, like everybody's getting involved. Rick Ross, of all people, is now involved in the beef just because he has some grievances with Drake. He put out the song Champagne Moments, which has some of the most laugh out loud, I think, lyrics in recent years of hip hop.

Be a nigga anyway, nigga, that's why you had operation to make your nose smaller than your father nose, nigga. I don't follow you, nigga, because you sent the motherfucking ceasing to desist the French Montana, niggins. He's not even rapping. He's just saying mean things about Drake over a beat. There's one line in the back half where he's like, I know you got your dockers on with no underwear. Like, this is so, like, it's so targeted and it's so mean-spirited for no reason. And that clip was maybe from a Drake live show where he shouts out his respect for Rick Ross. And then Rick Ross just turns around and says, F you, that's cold.

So, yeah, everybody, everybody's involved now because of like that. Drake put out a second dish track using, like, AI voices of Tupac to get under Kent. skin, Kanye's hopping on a remix of like that. Everybody's getting involved. So that's the dispatch from the hip hop world right now. This is like Q&ON level amount of conspiratorial disc tracking. It's so layered. And honestly, speaking of, you know, conspiratorial thinking, I personally have a weird feeling that all of this disc, right, like all of this drama featuring hip-hop's biggest superstars, I feel like it's kind of a sci-op to get us to care about hip-hop again because we've spent several episodes of this show talking about how hip-hop has

sort of been on a cultural decline in popularity and people paying attention to it. And I feel like this whole beef, I don't think it's necessarily manufactured, but I do think it's being played up to get people to pay attention to rap music again. Yeah, I mean, nothing is as good as a good old fight to garner attention. I mean, as someone, you know, you are a major wrestling aficionado. And these just feel like walk-on songs for a performance where it's not entirely sure what kind of level of fighting is actually going on. Yeah, rap music is equivalent to professional wrestling. Print that. I need to fry up some beef here and switch on pop headquarters to generate some more interest in the podcast. So by this time,

time next week, I expect you to all to have one issue with one of your co-hosts, okay? So that's your homework for the week. All right, shoulder pads. How good, it begins. Elbow pads. Oh, I got it wrong again. Charlie, maybe you can redeem yourself by telling us about your selection, the music that's been in your ears lately.

My favorite track of the moment is Willow Smith's Big Feelings. I spoke with Willow about a year ago or so about her rock, heavy music-oriented last project. And what I learned about her is that she is someone who commits so fully to a musical vision. And she's moving into this new musical space. Some have called it Prague. I think it's just Willow. She is finding her voice as an artist. I think she's found it.

And I have to say the first thing that caught my ear was that. the piano riff at the very beginning. Because in full disclosure, our good friend, the Wizard of the Keys, Zach Tenorio, who have known for a decade as a member of the band,

Ark Iris, and every Switched-on-Pop listener has heard as the player on our Switched-on-Pop ad music. Whoa. At Zach on their ad music. When I heard this song drop, I actually didn't know he was on it,

but I knew that piano playing. And I messaged him, I'm like, hey, are you on this new song? He's like, I don't even know that came out. And Zach is just, one of these mind-blowing keyboard players. And so it's so fun to hear a friend of the show on this new Willow track. But that's not the reason why I brought it here.

I love this song because it shows off its concept so effectively, this idea of having big feelings. What do you do when you have big feelings? When you have big feelings, you can't act rationally. You can't build a song which follows the rules and the structures and the rigid criteria. of a nice verse and a chorus and a climactic moment, your big feelings have to come out

in all of their imperfections, and that's just what she does here. You have that chorus, which is just so vocally powerful. So here we're hearing these enormous feelings that she's having, and part of having big feelings and sometimes having contrasting feelings,

and jumping out of the chorus, she moves into not a verse, but just some kind of new bridge section in which this ethereal voice, Willow is so good at playing with her voice, just like Kendrick. She's got many different voices. And she moves from confronting her big feelings, this acceptance that she needs to confront with this upper register of her voice. So in accepting her big feelings, it gives her wings, she can fly, she can make any kind of wild music she wants, including things that just

defy time signatures that I understand, creating all these disorienting feelings that are all the that she confronts in her big emotions. I know I have, I know you have proud. And if at this point you're thinking, Charlie, you've lost the plot. You're just completely biased because you love your friend Zach, who plays piano on this. Well, then let me just marshal some evidence from Questlove, who goes on social media to shout out this song,

praising Willow Smith for allowing herself to evolve into this artist. He goes on to say, do we want to say, do we want to say, all the things artists over the years have told me they wanted to do, but we're too afraid to because we were told odd timing signatures don't work. Or Prague rock song structures might be too much for the average listener to consume or to lyrically go to this vulnerable place that we might think will get us ridiculed. He says that he cannot wait to hear what comes from her in the next decade. So major hats off from Questlove to Willow. Big feelings. I'm feeling up big right now. this song might have been created in a lab for my listening pleasure between these

shifting time signatures and jazzy extended chords and thick vocal harmonies but like you were saying Charlie I think one of the things I love most about it is how it shows us that Willow is an artist who is constantly growing and expanding and won't be like tied down in any one sound or scene. I remember just a few years ago we were talking about transparent soul featuring Travis Barker and how it was embracing the lineage of heavy metal. And now we pivoted in this totally different direction, but it still sounds so convincing. This is an artist to watch. I love how Willow makes music that I've never heard before. And that was my first thought listening to this song. I was like, I don't think I've heard something like this previously. And

I listen to a lot of music, but Willow still manages to surprise me. And I think that's really exciting. Everything she puts out, I'm like tapped in. That's why, like, I don't feel like the category of Prague is sufficient. Prague is just kind of like, let's put in all the stuff, which is weird, into this umbrella category. And I think that she, yeah, she's using strange time signatures. She's using great chords, fine. But it is so from herself. It feels like a direct outpouring of what she needs to say. And she really earns all those complicated musical moments through the meaning of this song. She's trying to express big feelings. So what a great artistic statement. Honestly, I'm kind of happy that she pivoted away from the pop punk sound because I feel

like that ran its course. And I do feel like Willow was one of the biggest voices in that pop punk revival. And the fact that she's moved on maybe indicates that that scene is over and we're on to greener pastures. Speaking of moving on, Nate, what are you listening to? I want to talk about the song Too Sweet by Hozier. This is the Irish singer-songwriter who burst onto the scene just over 10 years ago in 2013 with his hit, Take Me to Church. And this song Too Sweet is the first time that Hozier has made it back into the top five

of the Billboard Hot 100 since that track, Take Me to Church. That's so wild. That was the subject of our 11th episode of Switched on Pop ever. We're now in our 360s. So it's overdue that we talk about Hozier because Hozier had a beautiful album come out last year, 2003, Unreal, Unearth, which was this extended concept album modeled after Dante's Inferno and the different circles of hell. And then almost as an afterthought, he released this EP in 2024. And one of the tracks of this EP, Too Sweet, became the breakout hit. What I love about this song is that I feel like it merges Hozier's traditionalist,

folkie, singer, songwriter style with maybe a newfound knowledge of how to construct a pop hit. Like, we just heard that chorus. It kicks butt. It's a little bluesy. It's a little fokey. It's a little catchy. I take my whiskey neat. That's a great way to start a chorus.

Now, you know, an earlier version of Hozier maybe would have gone back to another verse at this point, but not 20-24 Hozier. He gives us another chorus. And not only do we get a repeat of the chorus, we get all this rich instrumentation, tubular bells, chimes, ding, dog, dong, it's like pulling out all the stops here.

What do you do after you play two choruses back to back? well, if you're trying to get your first top five in over a decade, run that chorus back one more time, people. A wordless version this time with some ethereal accompaniment, but I feel pretty confident in saying we are looking at a triple chorus here, which if you ever wanted to hammer a hook into people's brains, this is the way to do it. I think part of the way that he also captures my heart and mind is it's very throwback, right? And it sounds a little bit, to me, like a minor version of My Girl. Right? You've got that plunky guitar riff, that enormous Motown sound, and so much honey for this very sweet My Girl. Maybe it's completely just my brain making these connections, but it feels like it's in this opposite minor world of My Girl to me.

Charles, you've said a lot of absurd, out-of-pocket, indefensible things on this podcast. And I, you know, I tolerate them. I try and give you a lot of credulity. Sometimes I even find myself moved by them. And yet this is one of the most inscrutable things that you've ever said to me. And I am completely flabbergasted how you could find any parallel between the temptations, my girl, and Hojers too sweet. I detect almost no musical commonality. I know you had a medical procedure recently.

I hope they didn't hit a cerebral artery or something because I'm a little concerned about whether you're of sound mind to continue making musical analysis on this show. And I apologize to the legacies of David Ruffin, Eddie Kendricks, Melvin Franklin, Otis Williams, and Paul Williams for impugning the legacy of the temptations by invoking this comparison. I think I just started a beef. Here we go. Here we go. Yeah. The podcast battle has started. I was going to say that's, you're like that.

I'll hit back at some time when you least expected. Well, this kerfuffle is maybe true to Hozier's song because it is about too incompatible. Thank you. It is about too incompatible. Nice pivot. Good job. One who takes their whiskey neat and stays up till odd hours, the other who's completely the opposite. So we are modeling the concept of the song for listeners right now.

Are you literally trying to back down from the beef that you just threw? I'm just, I'm trying to connect. No, I'm not pulling Jake Cole. I know. This is the Dray Cole district. No, I'm leaving this up on all the streaming services for everyone to see. Okay, okay. All right.

We need to cool down. We need to cool down. Let's take a quick break and then return for another round that will feature some caffeinated bops. a French electronic duo returning from a lengthy hiatus and an indie rocker who makes late capitalism fun again. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions.

I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Okay. Ready? Ready. Do not sugarcoat something for me.

No. No. No. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app.

All right. Rihanna, for round two, I want to kick it over to you because there is a song that you have said has been on endless repeat for you right now. Absolutely. On Spotify and also in my brain. I have not been able to stop thinking about Sabrina Carpenter's new song, Espresso. Nice. What a track. I mean, we were all grooving, like, instantaneously to that.

It's so good. It's so good. And if we were taking bets for early songs of the summer contenders, I think espresso would be my pick personally. The song is making me a Sabrina Carpenter fan. It's so simple and a take on the disco revival sound, but with a very laid-back chill energy that I think is perfect for the summer. Yeah, I don't mean to make things more uncomfortable by throwing other people under the bus.

I have really enjoyed the recent releases by Dula Lipa, but they haven't performed that well. like, you know, she really is a big part of this disco revival sound that you mentioned. Her album Future Nistalgia was the thing that everyone danced to through the pandemic. And she's been trying to find these new hits with songs. And they just haven't popped off. And some of our colleagues at Vulture were chatting on the side that like, this is the song that Dua Lepa wishes she put out because it is so hot, like a hot espresso.

It's lovely. It's simple. It's clean. the whole song is mostly chorus. Like hosier. Exactly. But even the verses are extremely catchy. Verse two specifically has been living in my head, again, rent-free since I heard it.

You really need to start charging more. I know. The line I'm working late because I'm a singer. Something about that is so simple, right? And it's so casual. But I think because it's such a very simple lyric, it feels very affable because it's like she's coming up with a song on the spot. And it's very brain off pop music in the best way, I feel like. Like something about her ending on the R sound in that simple lyric makes the song for me because it's kind of cutesy.

Like it's like you're twirling your hair and you're like, I'm working late because I'm a singer. And she sings it in this way with this studied kind of detainee. attachment that sounds so casual, but I'm sure it was the product of a lot of painstaking detail to really get that exact pronunciation. And did I catch a line at the end, my honeybee come and get this pollen referencing our oortex, my girl, I've got so much honey, the bees envy me? It's funny you say that, Charlie, because I was listening to this and I was just thinking, God, this sounds so much like Igor Stravinsky's The Right of Spring. That's like if you try to make espresso out of French press grounds, it's too bitter. You can't do that. Why would you do that to us? Coffee guy, big coffee guy on the call today.

A comparison that needs no explanation. It's obvious to everyone listening. I don't even need to explain it. I don't even need to explain it. So, yeah. All right, all right. Come on. Let's rain it in. Let's rope it in. Back to our corners. Fair, fair. Back to Sabrina Carpenter. She does something in the song that I think, Charlie, you might get a kick out of. She does some in-song SponCon. Check it out about a minute into the song.

Oh, wait, I missed it. What was the brand? The line I know I Mountain Dew it for you. I have zero respect for Mountain Dew, but that line is great. And I appreciate you nodding to our episode on SponCon and popular music. I was thinking when I heard espresso, how fast do you think the company Dispresso went to license this song? and turn it into an ad because if I'm Sprina Carpenter, I'm taking that espresso money. Absolutely. I'm taking espresso money. I'm taking Nintendo money because of chorus lines switch it up like Nintendo. I'm taking Mountain Dew money. This is easy. Easy pop song coin.

You know, she also says that she's soft skin and I perfumed it for you. I know I'm out and do it for you. I feel like there's a potential crossover, like a Dior Mountain Dew scent. Ooh, I'll be the first in line. Absolutely. I smell good, guys, I promise. It's a good thing we're on a video call. All right, let's temper our caffeine high by going to my illustrious co-host, Charles, and hearing about one of his favorite acts that is making a triumphant return to the recording studio. That was a fairly respectful transition.

Thank you, Dr. Sloan. I couldn't be more excited to introduce the comeback of justice. The French filter house duo whose debut album, Cross, was the soundtrack of my summer in, what, 2007? I was driving around in a van all summer. We had one CD. It was Cross. I think that the CD didn't play after that summer. I played it so many times.

And they just capture this style of filter house, post-disco, a little. bit of post rock as well. I love the sound. And they have gone through so many different variations, but they are making a return to form. They have just had a spectacular set at Coachella. They're putting out their first album in eight years. And they're calling it hyper-drama. It is the sound of justice that I love. Let's listen to One Night All Night with Kevin Parker of Tame Impala. So you've got those pumping synths, super hard-hitting drums, those filters going in and out. The vocals are always sort of subservient to the beat. There are these microchop samples, disco strings.

I love this sound. It even gets a little eerie, and that's one of the things I also love about justice, is their capacity to find the sort of darker side of dance music, which I think they first explored on the song, Stress, off their debut album, Cross. Charlie's so happy. Like if the sound track from Jaws went to a dance party. I was actually getting Ghostbusters, but go ahead. Ghostbusters. Okay, fair enough.

And they revisit this very eerie dance music sound on the new album Hyperdrama on their track generator. What's? It's so fun. Okay, I've been sitting on this album for months. I had the privilege of going to a playback of this album when it was just first mastered, and Justice were there to talk about it, and I asked them what the whole sort of purpose of this record was. And they told me that they wanted this to be a complete album that features the kind of sampling and microsampling and chopping of sounds that you would have heard in the 1980s hip-hop era, where records would routinely contain dozens of samples on one track.

But to make that happen, they basically made multiple albums worth of musical material and re-sampled it and chopped it up and turned it into kind of its own DJ set of this one contained album. It is a feast for the ears that takes you on an incredible, somewhat hallucinatory musical journey. Hyperdrama is such a blast. It feels like they've got some secret button that just makes every track sound so deep and heavy. The way certain drivers have a tank of nitrous ready to give them that extra boost over the finish line. They've got some secret sauce that just makes these tracks like, you're like, whoa, this is so immersive. And it's like the bass just like hits a little bigger and the snare just cracks a little.

harder. Like, I don't know what's going on in that studio, but who it's hard to talk about dance music. You just kind of feel it and they, man, they are giving you the hyper, they're giving the drama, they're giving you everything. So I feel like this listening around is kind of the music that we've been listening to nonstop lately. And for me, that is an artist named Rosie Tucker. Their album, Utopia Now is, I would say, an exploration of the weirdness of, of, of, of living under late capitalism, the highs and the lows. It does so in a way that can be very bracing, but it is always delivered with these catchy melodies

atop these power pop chords. And the result is a blend that I don't think I've ever encountered before. I think a track like all my exes live in vortexes is a good representation of this sound. Good rhyme. When I heard that opening line, I hope no one had to piss in a bottle at work to get me the thing I ordered on the internet. I knew I had to talk to

Rosie more about their process and the sounds and the inspirations behind this record. So I drove five minutes from my house to where it turns out Rosie's home studio is, which was amazing. And I spoke to them about making witty and edgy songs that tackle the bizarre reality of 21st century consumer culture. I am Rosie Tucker. More details. I am a songwriter and instrumentalist from Los Angeles, born and raised. Your latest album is Utopia Now, exclamation point. Yes, all caps.

All caps, exclamation point. Thank you for the correction. All my exes live in vortexes. Yes. Starts with another striking line. I hope no one had to piss in a bottle at work to get me the thing I ordered on the internet. Can you talk a little bit about how a melody and a lyric

sort of come together for you? For me, they are almost always born together, twins. Yeah. Like in this case, sometimes this melody, I feel when I'm performing it live, there's kind of a flourish at the beginning and then we're kind of sticking on one note for most of the line.

while I'm playing essentially a rapidly shifting power chord underneath. So there is like tension and resolution that is happening as I am just holding a note in the voice. Normally the melody, the vocal melody is what is bringing the tension and resolution kind of. I don't know how these things come together. It feels like rocks rolling around in my head. And I will be playing with different kind of styles of guitar chord and have kind of different images that are hands. hanging out. And when something emerges that feels strong and like it can hold, then I will consider trying to construct, you know, second and third verses that maintain what was special about the

first one. That's the hardest part. Right. Because now we get to the second verse and all of a sudden you have this really complex melody that you do have to, that doesn't emerge, twinned and indivisible, but you have to write a new set of lyrics too. I think what is amazing about songs is the forced economy of them and what that does to language is it kind of really limits the crayons in your box that you have available.

And so you're trying to figure out how to shade things in such a way where there's repetition because obviously a song lives or dies based on establishing something that can be both interesting and familiar kind of immediately. But then also you need movement.

Like at the end of every verse, I should be in a different place than I wasn't at the beginning. And every time the chorus happens, I should feel a little bit differently about the chorus. So on the one hand, there's so much about songwriting that is so easy. Once you have your 20 seconds of chords and melody, you have it.

Like, that can be instantaneous. But it feels like the great trick is to pull off something that is coherent the whole way through. Well, in this song, there is a transformation from the first chorus, which is, you want everything all at once to the second chorus, which is maybe I want everything all at once.

What was represented by that switch and subjectivity? I think that in this moment, I am trying, and throughout the record, I am trying to reckon with both, processing personal resentment and recognizing my own role in my own misery at any given point. I think that in this case, the speaker is perhaps held back in not recognizing how desire has played a role in unhappiness. and until that desire for everything is owned, it cannot be resolved. Rosie Tucker, thank you so much for joining us today.

Nate, thank you so much for having me and asking such wonderful questions. It's so rare that a pop song makes me confront all of the uncomfortable truths and unethical positions that we are forced to be in every single day. But when I listen to that song, all of my exes is. live in Vortex? Is that what it's called? Yeah. Oh my gosh. I just want more of it. I want to examine

all of my uncomfortable truths, all the things that I might need to change about myself. Thanks for bringing that to us. Charlie and Rihanna, breaking news, we have been granted special dispensation by the switched on pop overseers. What? To do one more lightning round

of the music that we are listening and loving right now. So, Charlie, give us a hyper-compressed Introduction to the other favorite song of the moment for you. Oh, you know, I feel like my default vibe is sad female singer-songwriter. And I am going to hope that the overseers don't knock me points for choosing three, because multiple artists with friends of the show have come up with records that I just absolutely love.

First, Lizzie McAlpine, who, Rihanna, you've spoken with, worked alongside Ryan Lerman for a bunch of songs, who is part of Scary Pocket. who you all interviewed as well. Her new album, Older, is beautiful. The song, I guess, is all about the awkward moments in a relationship, ties askew, bad dancing, feeling sick, sumbling through, saying, I love you. It sounds like if the Beach Boys Brian Wilson made a Phoebe Bridgers record, I love Lisa McAlpine. Then, Maggie Rogers has, I think, her best album yet.

Don't Forget Me, produced with Ian Fitchick, who is a friend of the show as well. The song The Kill is a perfect chorus with the perfect phrasing that drives as hard as the compound meter drums all about a relationship that is fundamentally broken. Finally, Casey Musgraves deeper well. I love the song, Too Good to Be True, also produced by Ian Fitchick. He's having a moment. I moved to New York City recently, and she sings about New York City as this foxy romantic place in contrast to the actual images of the city. And it absolutely captures my experience. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I took three.

It's not fair, but abusing his powers. But let's see if Rihanna was able to follow the rules a little more closely. I was, but I also am going to challenge something Charlie previously said, because I really enjoy the new Duelipa singles. I'm a really big fan of her new direction. I like it a lot more than I did Future Nostol. And her latest single is the song, Illusion. All right, you've conferred to me, Rihanna.

I mean, please. We have here Kevin Parker producing, who worked on the Justice record I just played. So I have to like this Danny L. Harle producing. My man. My man. Pauli-Chek, who I absolutely love. And it sounds like a daft punk chord progression. So how can I not love illusion?

It's so good. And I find it very similar to espresso, I think. And in that there's something in the way that Duo sings the chorus. that hooks me in and it's an instant earworm. Like the way that she sings her ends, where the first line is, what you do in? Like, I love the way that she sings these lines.

And it's so deeply catchy. And I feel like the song is a re-up of her future nostalgia track, Hallucinate, which is one of the highlights on that record to me. Well, there's some justice for Dua. But um, nice one, mate. I was worried Charlie wasn't going to do it, so I felt like someone had to step in.

Oh, my gosh. This is like a reverse secondhand underhanded diss. And guess what? It gets worse, Charlie, because you don't read your emails. Not really. I told you that I was going to talk about Casey Musgraves Deeper Well for this final round, and you just went ahead and did it and just slotted her into your sad girl songwriting trio. I told you I was going to get you back.

leaving me bereft. I have no objection to this, Nate. I would love more Casey. Casey was featured in the very first episode of Switched on Pop. I feel like we can give her her due. Lots of callbacks. What do you like on this album? What are you liking on Deeper Well?

I'm liking the title track, and especially the second verse, because I feel like one of the big narratives about Casey Musgraves when she came onto the scene was that here's a country artist who's not afraid to be pro-LGBQ and a festival. and talk about smoking weed. And this is a moment where she kind of like hits the brakes a little bit on the last one of those and talks about how she's been abstaining from cannabis. I mean, not only is it a wonderful sort of personal reset that I feel like we're to eavesdrop on. I've never heard the word gravity bong sung so sweetly over this gentle

finger style guitar accompaniment with this ethereal double-tracked gravity bong. It's like amazing. My quick research on genius says there's only a dozen ever songs that have used gravity bong as a lyric. And at least looking at the album artwork, I don't think any of them are in this sort of like neo-folk kind of sound. It's so delicate and whispery. And it's like, I'll never think of a gravity volume the same. But bigger takeaway, like, how cool to hear an artist like finding some kind of peace within themselves? A very, very powerful and sort of welcome departure from a lot of the material we encounter in the top 40.

I also feel like Casey's last album, Star Cross, was a little bit harder hitting, right? Like, it was a little bit more poppy. It was her divorce record. so the lyrics were a little bit harsher. This feels like a pivot back into the sounds that she was using on an album like Golden Hour, where she's kind of pairing it back. It's very pleasant to listen to, very simple and fulky, like you said. Speaking of divorce records, I feel like this episode might be the undoing of our entire relationship.

I brag about the fact that Nate and I have never had a meaningful fight of any kind. it's all been very amicable up until this moment. And I blame Kendrick for this. Charlie, it's your time for push-ups. Kendrick did not make you compare my girl to Hozier. You have no one to blame but yourself. Yeah, that was all you. That was all you.

Oh, Rianna's on my side. I'm picking sides. In the speed round, you both brought one song and I brought three songs. So that is three times the musical analysis. I'm going to just sit there and be happy on my high horse. A great song by Casey Mosgraves. Charlie, do you think you can pull it together to make it through the credits with us? Okay.

Switched on Pop. It's produced by Rianna Cruz. Woo! Sometimes by Nate Sloane. We are engineered by Brand McFarlane, edited by Art Schong, illustrations by Iris Gottlieb. Community Management by Abby Barr. Our executive producer is Nishat Kerwa.

We're a member of the Box Media Podcast Network at Production of Vulture, which is a part of New York Magazine. You can subscribe to New York Magazine at nymag.com slash pod. You can find us on social media at Switch. on pop, just like the title says. And you can find this on our website at switchedonpop.com. And we want you to engage with us on what your favorite spring releases have been. What are you thinking about me, espresso?

I'm thinking about you espresso. I'm thinking about us espresso, guys. Also, highly recommend you go to switchonpop.com or the link in our show note to sign up for the newsletter. I think this week I'm going to drop some insights from my Rosie Tucker interview that didn't make it into this episode because we had a really fun conversation. And there was a lot of stuff left on the cutting room floor that I want to share with y'all. So sign up, pop your email into the box and be treated to a weekly blast of musical logical inquiry and celebration. And come back next week when we'll be taking a trip across the pond to Europe for Dumpa-da-du-da-du-da-ba-ba-ba-Bah!

Eurovision! Let's go! It's so much fun, and a little bit of homework for you. If you haven't watched the Will Ferrell comedy film, Eurovision Song Contest the Story of Fire Saga, it's a mockumentary, but it is about as true to form as the actual event. You've got to check it out. Then go watch all the Eurovision entries on YouTube,

and next week we'll be deciding on who we think the top picks ought to be. Come prepared. We'll see you then. And until then, thanks for listening. Attention Spotify. Has yet yet yet yetchal Jasmine Absolute of Carolina Herrera. A fragrance intense with character

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