Switched on Pop - BONUS: Who are the Picassos of pop? (with Ross Golan)

Episode Date: September 13, 2019

Ross Golan is no stranger to Switched on Pop. This week, the songwriter and host of the hit podcast And The Writer Is… joins Charlie for a BONUS episode (cue siren) about the surprising lessons learned from a collective seven years behind the interview mic. Tune in as Ross and Charlie discuss the infinite shelf-life of classic songwriting techniques, the happy accidents behind some of your favorite hit songs, and the essential qualities of a good listener. Find more Ross on Switched on Pop in Episode 58, ‘What’s to Love About Ed Sheeran?’, and catch more of And The Writer Is… when Season 5 premiers this Monday, September 9th — anywhere you listen to podcasts. Episodes discussed:#80 How to ‘Make Me Feel’ with Lizzo#123 What BTS’s “Boy With Love” ft. Halsey Can Teach Us About K-pop#99 Entering Beard Phase (with Mike Posner)#107 How Streaming Changed the Sound of PopSongs Discussed:Lizzo - Truth HurtsSister Nancy - Bam BamPaul Anka - Put Your Hand on My ShoulderBTS ft. Halsey - Boy with LuvAriana Grande - Break Free Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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It's free for iOS users. Hi. Hi. I'm Ross. And I'm Charlie. I'm from And The Writer Is. And I'm from Switched On Pop. And we are doing a podcast together because we think our podcast together makes sense.

I think they really complement each other very well. I do too. Why do you think they complement each other? Well, because I love how you dig deep into the personal life of a songwriter. What does it take to be a songwriter? Where do you come from? What is the story and all the anecdotes from the very beginning? It's kind of like fresh air for musicians.

Like, I really feel like I get to know people. Yeah, and I think yours is interesting because what you guys tackle is much more into the mechanics of how music works in a way that ours doesn't. So I feel like together they really both address pop music in the way that pop is consumed right now. Yeah. And it requires ongoing conversation because it's one of the fastest moving art forms. We've both had this awesome privilege to have a microphone that we get to share with other people and an opportunity to investigate how other people work in the world of pop. And so I thought it would be fun to share some of our top three learnings in getting to do these projects.

Cool. Yeah. You want to go first? Sure. Yeah. One of my favorite pieces that we ever did was with Lizzo. Lizzo, I think, is just a phenomenal songwriter, musician, performer. She's an icon. And one of the things that I learned from Lizzo, who is a incredibly adept musician, is that so much of the best stuff are happy accidents that come from lots of practice. You end it with the best reference ever. What? The sister Nancy Bam.

Whoa, that's wild. I didn't even think about that. No way. Yeah. So let's listen to the end of your track for just a second. Yeah. And then here's the sister Nancy. Yo, that's genius.

It's such a frequent reference within R&B and hip-hop. It's a texture that people will just boom. Interesting. I mean, that was like a seat filler for lyrics. No way. And then we couldn't really think of anything. I remember we were really. listening to the chorus and truth hurts didn't exist yet.

It was just the chorus. Wiremen great till I got to be great. And then I was like, who truth hurts, Doug. And then Ricky's like, that's incredible. Go put that in there. Truth hurts. And then we wanted to have one more line.

Yeah. And we just put in bum. I was like bum bum bum, bum, be dumb, be dumb dumb, day. And then after like sitting, after like messing around with the beat, he messed around with the beat. And I just sat and reflected.

I was like, yo, that goes. One of my favorite things about this conversation, was that she found something that she didn't even realize was in there and was celebratory of how other people can listen and discover things. Sister Nancy, for those who don't know, is a fascinating person in music history because she's really the first female famous reggae artist in a generally male-dominated art form. And so to hear someone like Lizzo who's currently breaking some barriers and to think of other people like Lauren Hill who referenced Sister Nancy as well. There's something really exciting about the modernization of that interpolation.

That's really cool. People often ask us, why do I love this song? What makes this song brilliant? And I love to analyze music. I love to really sort of break it down, see what works. And in so many conversations with songwriters, the thing that happened in the room just happened to be a beautiful moment. At one point, Cia, was accosted and was said, you know, it's absurd that you write a song in 20 minutes. How can that be any good? And she says, well, yeah, it took me 20 years to write a song in 20 minutes. Well, plus she writes five songs in a day, and there are a lot of days where all five are not great. Sure. And, you know, and it's really interesting, the idea that people think that when they

write a song, it needs to be the hit. Sure. And you have to be unafraid to go somewhere and and not feel so restricted with your time that you can't take a risk and fall on your face. I think stepping out of that analytical mind and being able to put on that sort of expansive mindset and just willing to let something happen is when a magical moment like referencing Sister Nancy just off the top of your head occurs. So how about you? One of the top things you've learned to do this show. I've spent a lot of time on the introduction.

And we've done 60-something episodes now, maybe 70-something. I don't know. But the intro and the outro for me are really important because I think we don't often tell each other in our art forms how we really feel. I guess what I've learned from it is to not be afraid to tell people how appreciative I am of their work, regardless of it's an interview. To be able to compliment and that you only win by being supportive and not to hate. You don't need to hate on somebody's achievements. or how good their song is or they got the single or whatever it is. None of that matters going through the exercise of researching these people's history

and recognizing how much they've influenced me and currently influenced me and to be able to tell them to their face from the outset, this is some of the things that you've accomplished. And I'm going to say this to the world, but I wanted to make sure not to record the inside. intro without them there. I really wanted them to experience it. We're so used to not hearing from our peers how much you're loved by your peers. Yeah. I really admire that about your show. I think your introductions are not just generous. There are more than I expect from a greeting in an

intro. It's not here's a list of the things that someone has accomplished. It also humanizes that. It tells a bit of their story. Well, and I've gotten more comfortable as a, you know. as an interviewer. And I've kind of taken on a role of less, you know, this isn't necessarily a collaboration. This, you know, this is a chance for me to just blow up his spot or her spot. One of them that's really funny that's for this next season is with Paul Inca. I think we have an idea of our predecessors. But I always talk about how I think legacy is sort of stupid because I don't think anyone really remembers anyone.

you know, if I'm talking about 1830s and I'm talking about Schubert, there's a very small handful of people who give a shit about Schubert and the guy died in his 30s and whatever. It's like people don't know. I'm going to see Paul McCartney on Saturday. I want to go to that. Oh, yeah. Like there are kids who don't know Paul McCartney is. It doesn't matter what I do in my life, you know.

But every once in a while, you know, I'll interview someone who is undeniably at the very highest ranks. You know, and the guy was 15 when he broke in, and he was one of those people who broke in with the Ed Sullivan show. The guy wrote, like, my way. Do you know what I mean? Like, the guy wrote, like, you know, when he was 15 years old, he did, put your head on my shoulders.

He was 15 when he wrote that. Put your head on my shoulder. Hold me so tight. He wanted to start a record company with Buddy Holly, because they were best friends. His story is just so awesome and so rad. And I met and hung out with a lot of people, but he's as authentic to his brand. And he's probably almost 80 years old, mid-late 70s.

Most of people who broke in the 50s aren't with us anymore because they were 20 or 30 years old. What about you? What's an episode for you that you feel like is different than all the others? You know, I try to be exploratory and constantly change my format in order to keep myself entertained, but also to keep people on the edge of their seat. I just did a piece on how ought I listen to BTS. I felt like as a musician I can listen to BTS who, for better or worse, are often a sort of a stand-in for all of K-pop just because that they have. the largest audience and the largest media attention. Now, a lot of people would suggest that

BTS are very different than the rest of K-pop. And I had felt as a U.S.-based listener, not adept in Korean culture or K-pop music in general, I just had no idea what was the best entry point into that music. I'm so curious about what makes something work for other people and try to just put my taste at the door. But in this case, I didn't feel like I could trust my ear. And so I went and talked with this brilliant professor at UCLA, Dr. Sook Young Kim, who is a theater performance professor who wrote the book on how to listen to K-pop. For me, K-pop is so complex that the best way for me to rephrase it is to think it as kaleidoscopic pop, keyboard keypad pop. Sometimes I call it Kleenex Pop because, you know, it's so

disposable. Excellent songs are used once and they're forgotten the next week. And Korean pop in a way, and corporate pop as well with K. Two notes about K-pop. One is that this is what happens when you have a nation, South Korea, that funds entertainment. Right. And our largest export as a country, compared to any other country is entertainment. We have a vast amount of world entertainment that goes out. And yet we still are an industrial revolution type country that spends all the money on science and math and not on art. And we're making a giant mistake.

Because when you see the success of the Korean entertainment, it's directly related to their government. It is not just happenstance that Korea creates this music. They're actually subsidized and funded. When you see the success of Canadian artists in the United States, it's because 40% of Canadian radio needs to go to a Canadian artist. So if they start blowing up there, they can come south. When you have the weekend, Bieber, Selindian, Michael Boubley, you know,

Carly Rae Jepton, Sean Mendez. It goes on and on, Drake. All this is because there's a, government-funded source for art. So we should learn from that. People also often ask us why is it that Scandinavians are so popular in music music. Incredible state-sponsored music education and art support throughout. The other thing I was going to say is that music has moved west since Vienna in the mid-18th century. So if music continues to move west, whether it's, you know, 1900s in France or it's 1950s in London and New York,

and the 2000s in L.A., it would make sense if the next move is going to be in Asia and it's going to be in India. And once they figure out how to monetize their music industries, there's a reason why there's so much investment in the DSPs in Asia and in Eurasia, because there is going to be an insane amount of money because there's such a huge population and a crazy amount of art that's going to happen west of where we are now. So it makes sense why K-pop would be next. Maria, you have a podcast now and you need to start acting like it. What's the first step as a podcaster? Well, you have to ask lots of questions. I'm Maria Sharpova and I'm hosting a new podcast called Pretty Tough. Every week, I'm sitting down with trailblazing women at the top

of their game to discuss ambition, work ethic, and the ups and downs that come on the path to achieving greatness. I have a few pretty tough questions for you. Ready? Do not sugarcoat something for me. No, no. We'll dive into their stories and get valuable insights from top executives, actors, entrepreneurs, and other individuals who have inspired me so much in my own journey. Pretty tough is your front row seat to the women who have demonstrated the power in being unapologetic in their pursuits. I hope you'll join us. New episodes drop Wednesdays on YouTube or in your favorite podcast app.

Immigration may be Donald Trump's signature issue. is now targeting predominantly democratic cities for ice raids and deportations. Dozens of protesters clashing with immigration and customs enforcement agents in Minneapolis Tuesday. We will begin the process of returning millions and millions of criminal aliens back to the places from which they came. But what we want to do in this space is talk about America and politics beyond the current president. So what do most Americans think about deportation and border security, period? I think that Americans are definitely against the kind of violent displays that we've seen in the street from ICE. When it comes to the question of deportation, the answer is more complicated.

My sense is that people want border at the border. They don't like the idea of having no idea who's coming into the United States at any given time. The view on immigration from the bottom up instead of the top down. That's this week on America Actually. Every Saturday in your audio and video feeds. How about you? So number two. You learn how to listen differently when you listen to yourself speak. And I can't recommend to any listener of any podcast.

I would imagine if everybody were to take their phone out, pick up their voice note, and record their next conversation just for an hour, whoever it's with. At first you'll feel uncomfortable, but you should do that 10 times and listen back and find out how you actually communicate. Kate. Anybody who's hosted a podcast or who's edited their own podcast or anything like that, and I don't edit ours, but I've listened to a lot, and the first 10 episodes are vastly different than the most recent 10 episodes, and a lot of it is just from listening. And I don't think I knew how to listen when I started this, but I think I'm learning now

how to hear and actually pay attention to what other people are saying. And I just would imagine most people who listen to podcasts when they communicate to people, they may not be communicating how they think they're communicating. So something is amazing magnifying glass. Well, stepping outside of what we've learned about music, but just more generally about, I love that your lessons are about essential qualities of being human in many ways, finding emotion and how we communicate with our peers.

I love this format that we have, because I think it's one of the few formats where people stop and think and consider and maybe even propose, hey, have you thought about something this way? Oh, no, I hadn't. I have done this project with my collaborator, Nate, now for almost five years. The only dispute we've ever had has been about an Ariana Grande lyric, and everything else happens on Mike in an honest dialogue and discourse, which is so different than the majority of our media landscape. So I love that this format allows for... What was the lyric? And break free when she sings,

now who I've become who I really are. Huh. Do you know this? No, what was the debate? I mean, I know the song. Yeah, so, well, it's a public debate in which Max Martin wrote the lyric, and Ariana Grande didn't want to sing it

because it was grammatically incorrect. And they had a dispute in the studio about... And this is, they had those interviews that were around and talked about this. And she said, I don't want to sing it that way. I don't want to sing the wrong word. And he's like, no, but he wanted the rhyme. It sounds right. He wanted to get the rhyme with the previous line.

Valves matter. Yeah, totally. And so when she sings the line, it kind of sounds like now who I've become who are really, uh, and I think there's like, she closes her mouth and gets a little at the end. Just as a like, you know, F you, I'm going to do it right. Well, let me tell you, like, in that world, because my main collaboration home is MXM, if there's an M at the end, they know it. And they discussed it, and everyone in the room discussed it.

And my assumption is that I would assume Peter Carlson did the vocals on that. My guess is that we could, we're one text away from, you know-in-a-and-a- Yeah, exactly. But if there's something like that, that's a choice. only hip-hop and country are really art forms where they speak to English-speaking audiences only, you know, specific dialogue. But when you're doing pop music at the level that Ariana has been doing in that specific style of that song, it's built for people around the world to sing along to. So sometimes lyric can be secondary to the sound of the word. And that's okay.

Part of what is so compelling about her is, there's so much, but the way in which she pronounces her words is incredibly idiosyncratic. It can only be sung by her in her unique way of saying that word and forming that vowel. No doubt. I love it. So that's our biggest dispute we've ever had. I like that dispute. We have all sorts of other, often just sort of musical logical questions that occur, and we're constantly trying to convince each other of things. But I don't think if we're we were on shock jock radio or even on YouTube that it would allow for that back and forth in which we all get to engage in hearing from different perspectives. One of the thing I've learned from, and the writer is, is when I prepare for these interviews

and I was alluding to this earlier, I'm going through somebody's discography. And Ali Willis talked about it in hers. She's the one who wrote the theme from Friends and, you know, amazing writer. But when you look at somebody's discography, when you see all these hits coming out, that's the easy time to ask questions. The hard part is when there's this what looks like a two-year lull, three-year lull. And anybody who's listening to this when you're going through a three-year lull, it's excruciating. You don't know what's going to happen. But I can guarantee almost all of them are building something.

That's when they're writing those hits. That's when they're figuring out what the next sound is. That's when they're writing their musicals. That's when they're writing their long form, whatever it is. That's when they're writing their TV show or their book. It's always in this lull. And then when it comes out, it comes out in 2022. And all of a sudden it's like, wow, what a year.

All these things happening for you. What's it like? And that's really just a celebration of the struggle from the previous three, four years. And it's so easy to ask people questions about the years songs are released just because of logic. Of course you're going to ask that. But the real questions aren't what's happening in the years that are good. But I'm so interested in the years where it seems like nothing's happening to the outsider. I want to ask you about this.

I was asked recently about do artists have less room for, reflection and the opportunity to develop new work in that there is such a demand for ongoing content release, constant single drops, album after album, get right on tour. Well, okay, so this depends on who the artist is. And not to segue it, but I'll just mention it. So my day job is so much creating a song on Friday that comes out on Friday to be done on Friday. It's a two-week song cycle.

You know, in the best case scenario, it's something they go to radio and they're willing to spend six months on, but the cost of radio is increasingly expensive. The artist cares less and less about how much they're making on any of these given things because they're making money on touring. You know, the artist who's patient who comes out with art ends up being the Bruno Mars's. You know, it ends up being the Adele. it becomes these artists that are the ones that are constantly celebrated. The ones who come out and try to play the content game, they're successful for a while, and if they have the correct amount of followers on their DSPs,

the algorithm will work in their favor and they'll make money regardless of the quality of the music. But if you're trying to break in the business, more is not more. To me, less and way less is more. If you spend a year, five years, 10 years working on a project

that's truly worthy of word of mouth, you are more likely to have the success of Switchon Pop because it's word of mouth, as we were discussing, then it will be being successful because of the amount of content. This is something I've really noticed is that there has to be a real relationship.

I don't think you develop a fan base off of, as a fine song. You have to have some relationship there. There has to be a connect, a real emotional connection that people have to have to the thing. And when people, when songwriters ask me for advice, who is your community? Who are you communicating with?

Why do they need the thing that you're creating? Why does it matter? And if you can't answer those questions very well, what are you making? What are you doing? You're probably doing it for fame alone. Well, and the discipline of the job is really important. And I talk about that a lot where treat it like it's a job.

You know, show up, study your craft, all the great artists in all different genres, all different art forms studied unless they were prodigies and those exist too. But maybe for most of us who are in the world, we're probably not prodigies. We probably had to work at it and had to learn. And you might have all the instincts in the world.

But assuming you weren't 14 when you had your first major hit and your whole youth was not in the limelike because of your prodigious ways, you have to study and you have to keep studying. You have to keep working on it. And your only job is to entertain your audience. It is not about you at all as a writer. Stop showing me that you know how to write.

Write so that way, as a listener, I'm affected. Make it about the listener, not about yourself. So this is a sort of a segue to one of my other favorite moments, which was a conversation that I had with Mike Posner, who I believe you've also had on your show, and who's kind of the like sage, wisdom of the songwriting world. I love the opening of his new record in which in the intro he basically says, if you don't have time to listen to this all the way through and just listen, that's fine.

Just don't listen right now. Come back to it when you have time because I'm trying to, I want to share something with you and it's going to be a magical thing, but just let's do it together. I think that was kind of a bold choice. In speaking with him, I feel like I learn constantly all the ways in which the rules apply until the rules don't apply. And I had a great conversation with him about his song, Song About You, which was a hit a few months back. And there's this wonderful little line in there where he breaks all of your expectations. I was really into like not rhyming. I didn't like a lot of rhyming in my career. And sometimes it gets in the way. You know, I did a book of poetry and I found in some ways poetry was a lot more real. Or,

like harder in like a Detroit sort of way. It's harder in that I don't mean more difficult. I mean it's like grittier because you just say it. So we're playing around with not rhyming a lot. And I think that's really what makes a song dope to me still is when I listen like in the first verse and say, since you've been gone, I ain't got nothing to do. I sleep until noon. I wake up and feel bad.

That should rhyme, but it doesn't, and that's really awesome to me. That's also a Ricky Reed song. To Ricky Reed's credit, he wants to work with artists. Yeah. And doesn't necessarily think about songs as the priority, even though he respects a song, and he came from writing hit songs and producing hit songs. He's so into the idea of an artist and an artist palette. And I think that that's interesting that,

the things that you've brought up have been from what seems to inspire you specifically are artists. Yeah. From a podcast that's often about pop songs. Mm-hmm. What is it about artists that inspire you versus pop songs, or is it just coincidence? I feel like I'm always wrestling with this tension that pop music is both industry, it is commerce and it is pop art.

Both these things are happening. Sometimes in very unequal measure, these scales are balanced very differently per song and per artist. You know, I love work that like a great pop song, just grabs you by the collar and the earworm is immediately in there and you're singing it after the first listen. I love a good hook, but I always want more. I want that song to just evolve and go deeper and have more to offer the more times you listen to it.

There's a lot of pop that can be saccharine. You get a taste of it. And then on the second or third list, and you're just like, it was great. Super sweet. Awesome. And by the third year listen, you're like, ah. Too much sugar. Yeah.

Too sweet. Too sweet. And so with all art, I want things that have those qualities of both there's something immediate there. Whether you're a musician or not, there's something that just grabs you. And the more you know, the more the thing unfold and there's more beauty to the thing. Whether the composition and the things that I love about the song are intentional or not, right? Like, I love, for example, breaking down Julia Michael's melodies. Her melodies are brilliant.

They oftentimes have these sort of like internal logic to them, where she'll do this tiny little stepwise motif in the verse that then comes back in the post-corrh. but then gets expanded upon. And when I talked with Justin Tranter a few months back, he's like, yeah, that's just stuff's happening in the room. It's not intentional. But I love the way in which there can be that beautiful compositional logic allows a song to blossom and blossom and blossom. Well, and another thing is that Lizzo, Mike Posner, and Julia Michaels

are all writers in the room who tend to be off the cuff, tend to freestyle. Sure. Obviously, they each. understand craft as well, but all three of them really freestyle a lot. And what you get is what they spew out into the microphone almost more in a jazz sense. Sure, yeah. Versus an edited, you know, Max Martin sense. And I love his kind of work as well. I mean, breaking down, oops, I did it again, and looking at the complimentary choruses and like counterpoint that, you know, is like up there with Baroque style counterpoint is brilliant. I love that stuff.

I think he almost has the inverse where, you know, someone who's so detailed and exact in his composition, and yet the first time you hear it, it feels light and obvious and just, like, it just came out of anywhere. And then you go deeper and deeper, deeper. It just has more and more to offer. One of the things that Kanye's did on the last album where he would adjust the mixes once they were released. That's something that I think we'll see more of. I mean, right now, just working on the show part of The Wrong Man, there's 25 songs in the show, and they're different songs than the album, like massively, like the shows, the thing is different. It's still growing. And that's a way where obviously not everybody's trying to do like an album into a show. But the idea that art is not done. We get it often when people do a remix where they have somebody else coming on the song, a new feature, that they'll re-release the song with the new feature. But I like the idea that I don't know why artists can't go back in and rewrite a verse or rewrite a

pre-chorus or a chorus why they can't you know all the artists talk about what after they've toured how oh man if they would record it now it would sound so different because they've recorded it they've performed it 200 something times in front of thousands of people you have a whole other perspective so I don't know why we don't go in and rewrite songs that have been released why just because it's out in the world can you not adjust it to make it better? I would imagine if Taylor Swift went back and was like, you know what,

I could probably syncopate one part of this new song besides the pre-chorus cool, really fast, but I could probably make that a chorus a little more exciting if she decided to do that. And I'm not critiquing her because I don't, you know, whatever. But my point is, I bet she couldn't. I bet everyone would listen to it and be like, wow, I like that version better.

We just did a piece about a last, and how there has been a very strong response to Prince Ali in particular. A lot of people have been complaining that it doesn't sound as good. The new version as compared to the old version. And one thing we noticed that it's a lot slower, actually it's a little bit slower. It's 8 ppm slower and it's a half step down. And maybe people are sort of feeling sluggish. And so we did this piece and then we got so much mail about how they hear the song

in a myriad of different ways, including different emphasis, different levels. different levels of swing in the music. And these subtle differences that I hadn't heard the original in a long time. I hadn't seen Aladdin since I was an adolescent. And so I didn't pick up on these. It's not music that was particularly important to me. And I thought, oh, the new one sounds fine. You know, maybe prefer Robin Williams to Will Smith.

But people develop such strong relationships to a recording that I think that it's, there's also a danger in going back and touching it up because. But man, there's like Malcolm Gladwell has a podcast. call revisionist history. And I think the very first episode of all of them was this idea that, you know, and I refer to this a lot in our podcast, like the Benny and Julia and these, those people are the prodigies, right? Those are the Picasso's.

They're super prolific. It's so easy for them to do their sound and their sound is just, is the sound. And, you know, the way Picasso would be sitting at dinner and would just draw a sketch and trade for food. Like he didn't care about the abundance of music or his equivalent of art. And then there was someone like Cézahn who wouldn't ever sign his name

and he would go to somebody's kitchen later on pull down the painting and fix it 40 years later because he'd see like, you know what? I think that could work. Well, I love this prediction though and look forward to hearing things that, why not revise things? Punch them up.

I do think it's a really fun idea. I gave a speech recently about, you know, it was more legislative stuff with songwriters in the state of the industry. Which you advocate for heavily in your work. Yeah. And songwriters have to know that just because the way things are now doesn't mean it always has to be that way. This industry is so young. The burn convention is, I think, 1886. So the copyright internationally speaking is 130 years old.

in the U.S., really 1909. And really, the idea of recorded music happened around that time, but that was in reference to sheet music. We didn't have television really prominently until the 50s, and you don't really have the record business until Elvis, which is mid-50s, and then you get all these other guys like Paul Inco, you know, and you get the beginning of the record business. The record business is super young.

It's not even 75 years old. you know as far as the mass consumption i mean sure jazz first record is 1917 and that becomes all the rage and there are different moments in history where we have the record business has blips but really elvis and then the beetles and all this this is the beginning of what we know of as the record business yeah that's not even two generations away that's our parents you know that's maybe our parents, parents, if we're talking about, you know, kind of Elvis, if you're really young. But you're talking about a really short-lived history in what we think of as, you know, the way things have to be.

Yeah. It's okay for you to ask for things that aren't in contracts. Just because they aren't there doesn't mean that they'll never be there. It's okay for us to advocate for each other in a way where we change, you know, the last year and a half. so much has changed and what we're about to deal with so much is changing for the music industry. And it's partly because we're asking for things. I think that's just important for all of us to look at our industry and say, yeah, you know what?

Sure would be better if songwriters could split a point. You know, it might be nice if we created some sort of, you know, a living wage where if record companies release your music, that they pay the statutory rate in advance, they would, you know, the producer fee, like X amount of dollars. It's okay to ask for some of these things. It's okay to ask the PROs, the performance rights organizations, ask at BMI to help find, use their collective bargaining of sorts to create healthcare. Yeah.

You know, the Grammys should have a songwriter of the year. All the other ones do. We got songwriters added to album of the year. So why can't we get a songwriter of the year? Why is it that pop songs? why you can qualify for country song and then that also qualifies for song of the year. Why is it that pop songs don't have its own category?

It's just really interesting. I just think it's important for us all to look at the industry, the state of the industry, and continue to talk about how we can find equity for songwriters other than just complaining about the way things are. Well, maybe we could both do one more quick favorite moment. and I have one that I'd like to share, which is in response. We've done some reporting recently on how the change towards a streaming-based music economy alters composition and songwriting.

And we first found this material through some great reporting by Dan Koff and Ayesha Hassan at Quartz. I want to play you a clip from our conversation. So the way that many music streaming services work is that songs generate money per play. That means every time that they're streamed, they generate a certain amount of money, and that's very little. So it ranges between $0.004 to $0.008. And then if you don't play it to the very end, and that rating goes down, meaning that people don't listen to the song through as much, then the song is less likely to make it into Spotify's really lucrative playlists, which get them streamed more,

and because the amount of money is so little, volume is really important. I think it's important to note that artists right now, according to a report in 2017, they're only getting about 10% of the music industry's total revenue, but streaming is so important because that's how they're going to break out, right? And if they're not going to be heard by audiences, then less people are going to buy their tickets for their concerts, less people are going to buy their merch,

So to be visible, it's really important to sometimes game the streaming system. So more people listen to their stuff. You know, it's cool. Yeah. If you listen to all the, let's say Beethoven's Fifth, it starts with the hook. You know exactly what it is right away. All those great classical songs started with the hook. And then they spend the whole piece referencing that hook.

What we have in Spotify is actually that. Right now, we're going back to the idea of all. often starting with the hook or starting with something like the hook. So that way the listener knows exactly what they're getting into. They can hear the refrain. They can hear the main part. The greatest songs in history that we talk about often start with the hook. Yeah.

And, you know, maybe when we get into these long-form albums and there's still a desire to hear that stuff, and obviously as an artist, that's my whole MO. Yeah. But... In those long forms, you can go wherever you want musically. But something really exciting right now is that there's no patience for the listener. So we're not going through these long, extended verses hoping that they're hanging on. No.

Instead, we're starting with the hook. Maybe the way songs are always meant to be. We're starting with, twinkle, twinkle little star. Right off the bat, you know what the song is called. You know the hook. It goes ABA, super simple, done. We're doing that right now. That's what the DSPs have brought up is maybe we're going back to what songs were in short sonata form.

Maybe we went into the wrong way for a while. Maybe we're back. And view that change is a positive thing. It's really exciting. One of the new innovations in composition that I've heard has been what we call, we've been calling it the pop overture, which is give someone a taste of the hook up front. Maybe it's just a four bar, eight bar, little intro. You have some sort of like reverberated or filtered out lead synthesizer, which plays

the hook and gets you in your ear and then drops you into the verse as a way of giving you a taste of what's to come, but not blowing out the entire climax right at the start. And that's a cool new song. I hadn't heard that until the last couple of years. We've all gotten used to the, you know, you start with the verse. you know, and there's a place for that. But it's okay to start with with hooks. And hooks are, man, that's what makes songs fun. Why are we shying away from less, like more hooks, more hooks, more hooks, just make them unique hooks and don't make them stock hooks. But hooks are your friend.

There's a lot of reporting I've seen about this anxiety that our song's getting worse because they're getting shorter or our analysis of lyrical content and suggesting that lyrics are becoming more redundant, a lot of like large data set analysis to make some sort of qualitative statement about music. And the journalist Aisha Hassan, I think, addressed this beautifully on our show. I think that anxiety is tied to like brevity in popular culture or digital platforms as a whole. People are concerned about, you know, like culture, where we just respond to everything with a thumbs up or just an emoji and we're just like scrolling through Instagram videos or snapchat videos kind of numbly. And I think.

this anxiety over shorter songs or maybe the diminishing quality of music because of shorter songs is actually tied to maybe the diminishing quality of our communication or interaction with each other because of the way that social media has pervaded like society. Hell yeah. Right? It's not the song's fault. It's not the song's fault. It's not the writer's fault either. No. And again, if you're entertained, then they're doing their job. Totally. I think one of the mistakes that a lot of musicians and artists and songwriters are doing right now, the trend right now is to do this, I'm going to read my diary to you. And I'm going to avoid all the math as much as I can, you know, to just make sure that I, so I sound cool because I'm avoiding it. And I like that there's starting to be this pushback to some more like songcraft. I actually don't think things are really repetitive right now. I think K-pop really has it right. Oh my gosh. It's part of the reason why they're succeeding so well.

You're surprised every five seconds. But the idea of mumbling through a song and saying what's off the cuff is not as exciting as when you give somebody help set up some expectations and throw them for a loop and, you know, like, or throw them whatever. It's exciting right now. If you bring in your songcraft right now and you really do your diligence as a writer, I think you'll actually win better in the next year and a half than you have in the last two. Makes me think of, I mentioned break free that R. McGrande and Zed did.

And I love that song in particular because there are so many points where you think something's going to happen and it doesn't happen and you're surprised. It has an introduction that sounds like it's going to drop into some kind of like dubstep thing. That goes away and only returns in the outro. After the post-chorus, there's this crazy riser that happens. And you think, again, there's going to be a drop, no drop. drop. And you keep getting led in these directions that ultimately go in somewhere where you are totally surprised. And when a song does that to me, it's the best. But that's the difference. And, you know,

I talk a lot on the show about how recorded music is an illusion. And it's not dissimilar how you guys talk about it. But a good songwriter, if they're a magician, if we're going to use magic as there as the metaphor. The magician can do a lot of cool tricks, and you may look at that and be, you know, impressed with all the tricks. But one trick in particular is the one that everyone talks about.

Can't necessarily control that. As a magician, you're going to do 10 tricks, and they're going to like most of your audience. If you do your job, they're going to like all 10. But that extra one is the one that has like the, jeunise what. You know, it's going to have that break-free moment where you think it's going to go somewhere. And if the writer and the artists and the producers are all in sync, it's possible that that illusion, music really shines,

where you as the listener have certain expectations. The writers gave you the journey and entertained you appropriately. They took you for a ride and you want to hear it again because that ride was so fun. That's the magic of music That's the magic of a good songwriter And a good producer is someone who can do that Who can take you the listener on a journey That's the goal is to find out who the magicians are for me

And for you is to find out how the magic tricks were done Yeah I think it's a beautiful place to it And you have this show coming out And where should people go to check it out? The first single off of The Wrong Man is called Stay Positive the album is called The Wrong Man That you can get at all your DSPs

You know we have a movie that's coming out We did an animated movie that was in the Tribeca Film Festival And then it's it's opening in New York at MCC theater On October 7th Directed by Tommy Kale who did Hamilton Alex Lackamore was the music director for Hamilton It's their first show since Hamilton for as far as musicals So come and see the show and let me know beforehand

Maybe I can give you a high five if I'm there. I cannot wait to experience all of this. This has been a pleasure. And we can find, and the writer is. At all the same places you find Switched on Pop. Anywhere you get your podcast. Yeah, exactly. Switched on Pop is produced by Nate Sloan and Charlie Harding.

We're proud members of the Vox Media Network in our show is edited and engineered by Brandon McFarland. Production Fellow is Megan Lubin. Our executive producers are Nashat Kurwa and Liz. Liz Nelson, community manager, Sarah Terry. You can find more episodes anywhere you get podcasts or check out our website, switchedonpop.com. Also, you should totally follow us on Twitter

at Switched on Pop and Instagram, same handle where we're constantly posting about pop-related matters. We will see you in another week with a brand new episode, and until then, thanks for listening.